OWC ThunderBolt 5 Hub

[@cwaynefox]

I have received notification from OWC that "We are actively investigating claims of reduced speed in various enclosures when connected to a Silicon Mac through the Thunderbolt 5 Hub. “ I’ll pin this comment and update it as information is available

[@talkenrain842]

just discovered your channel and am enjoying your videos. I like your presentation and unbiased view. Very helpful. Thanks for making videos.

[@cwaynefox]

thanks. always appreciate feedback.

[@archie7012]

please go on like that, you're very helpful with your content and videos! Thank you!

[@cwaynefox]

thanks

[@prsearls]

I enjoy your videos and real world performance testing. I, too, am a longtime OWC customer and find their products are excellent. I see over your shoulder an old "trashcan." I just retired mine after buying a new Mac mini M4 Pro. There is a huge performance increase from the new chips and connectivity plus I can now run the latest OS and software.

[@cwaynefox]

yeah, both that as welll as my 2019 12 Core Mac Pro are so slow compared to the new Macs once the M1 Max came out there was no market to sell them. I still have the 2019 running, relegated to game play when I walk on my treadmill and home video server . I have some videos that show how Lightroom and Photoshop performance has changed over the years, I think one of them sets the trashcan Mac as its baseline. Pretty astounding were we are now

[@DavidHarry]

Hi, Wayne. That loss of write speed that you have noticed might be due to some loss or incompatibility with the various bridge chips being used between the enclosures and the docks. It won't be due to the video bandwidth until you exceed a single monitor in 4K/60 and depending on its colour space. All Thunderbolt standards have segmented bandwidth dedicated to video bandwidth, whether you are using it not. For instance, with TB4 you actually only get 32Gb/s for data, which while being the limit for the PCIe lane bandwidth for tunnelling, also happens to be the residual of the 8Gb/s that's segmented for video bandwidth. Once you start applying high resolutions, refresh rates, colour spaces etc. or multiple monitors, that exceed 8Gb/s of total bandwidth. The rest of the video bandwidth requirement is prioritised over the data bandwidth and will reduce the data bandwidth, as you know. Also, you've probably noticed that you never get the full data speed either, even when using a fast SSD that's capable of faster than 32Gb/s 4000MB/s (for TB4), it's usually around 25% less. This is due to various overheads, bi-directional control data and parity data. This is all the same with TB5, although, with higher segmentation. This is why you'll find certain USB4 enclosures being faster than TB4 enclosures with a fast SSD, as USB4 doesn't have certain constraints that TB does. I don't think USB4 uses "proper" dynamic bandwidth allocation but it isn't restricted in certain ways that TB is. What I do find surprising is the hit on your TB5 results, as TB5 is capable of 120Gb/s for video, which is a compression method. However, I'm not sure if that's only if the bus is dedicated to video only. However, it still could be an issue with the various bridge chips in the chain. I'll check for these same things on my docks and drives and let you know if I get the same reduction in write speeds. BTW. Have you tried using a 10Gb/s USB SSD to see if that also drops its write speed when on the TB docks? Cheers, Dave.

[@cwaynefox]

Thanks for the info. I’ve been researching a little on the relation of the bandwidth via the PCIe speed and the displays, and as you mentioned the hit to TB5 SSD’s only happens once I attach a 2nd 4k display, no hit with just one. I read from OWC that USB4 could deliver more speed that TB4, that’s why their new enclosure was USB4 and reached the 3400 MB/s read/write speeds. Curious as the what the lesser constraints for USB4 are and if there is any risk to that over thunderbolt. I’ve been assuming this was a chip problem, but really don’t have the knowledge to delve too deeply. I haven’t found out which chip is being used in OWC’s hub and Kensington’s dock, but since they both exhibit the same problem I thought it might be from using the same controller chip. When I get home I’ll run some tests on the 10Gb/s ssd’s both from the USB slot and from a thunderbolt slot. Guessing I won’t see a hit, but then again can’t know that without trying.

[@DavidHarry]

​@@cwaynefox Hi, Wayne. Here's some speed test results for you. I have the Acasis DS-9007 TB4 dock, Acasis DS-9001 TB4 hub, Acasis TBU401E TB3/4 enclosure and the TBU405Pro M1 TB3/4 enclosure. I've tested all combinations with the 4TB Samsung 990 Pro. I wouldn't usually use that SSD as it gets too hot and its cache is only about a third of that of the 4TB WD SN850X. However, it is "technically" the fastest SSD I have and my WDs have got production media on them and quite full at the moment. In all combinations of the dock, hub and enclosures the write and read speeds were basically identical compared to the drives being connected direct to my M4 Max MBP. Over multiple runs of the speed tests the write speeds were around 2800MB/s across the board, with variations within 10MB/s which is obviously just rounding differences. The read speeds were all around 2870MB/s. I did not have any monitors attached. I don't know if you've seen any difference in the write speeds when using your TB3/4 drives via any TB4 docks compared to being directly connected but I've seen others showing differences. All the Acasis products I use have Intel chipsets, so maybe this is why I'm not seeing any differences in the write speeds but that's just a guess. I also tried the 990 Pro in the TB501 with the TB4 dock and hub and that was essentially the same write speeds. This is likely because all the combinations were hitting the maximum speeds of the dock and hub. I also tried the 990 Pro in the Zike Z666 USB4 enclosure and while this will get between 3500-3600MB/s write/read when connected directly. When connected via the TB4 dock and hub, the performance was basically the same as the TB3/4 enclosures. This is because the Zike will be limited to the same maximum TB4 speed that the TB3/4 enclosures are, due to the TB limitation that's applied with the TB4 dock and hub. Like I said, I've seen others showing similar tests were they lose write speed via a TB4 dock. Sometimes this can be quite drastic depending on the enclosure being used. Again, I can only surmise that the lack of issues I'm seeing are because it's all Intel chipsets. I also used various TB4 cables and the TB5 cable that comes with the TB501 and this did not make any difference. I can't remember now if I've seen you do any TB3/4 enclosures or USB4 enclosures connecting via a TB4 dock and having any issues. Do you have any videos like that? I will be getting a TB5 dock soon and the Acasis TB501 Pro enclosure when it's released. It may be worth keeping an eye on my channel as I will do these same tests with that stuff and do a video about it. I may do a video showing the TB3/4 results I've just described. I'm also wondering if these issues I've seen others have and your TB5 speed difference are the same when using the same enclosures and docks on a Windows TB4/5 system. It could still be that the issues that I've seen in other videos could be a macOS or Mac hardware issue. One thing's for sure though. Both Thunderbolt and USB are a bit of a mess when you get to 40Gb/s and 80Gb/s and start mixing and matching peripherals. Cheers, Dave.

[@pan6593]

Appreciate both of your tests and insights. One thing to note (as you will both know): back when I had to deal with these issues professionally, my experience was that one of the - if not the major problem - was, that the industry has to deal with a limited spread of necessary chips: there might be only one or 2 vendors that produce this kind of (particularly thunderbolt) chips. As a result similar limitations occur, especially when it comes to bandwidth or compatibility. This is not the situation with USB with a mich higher spread (then again, on TB one could might have been able to figure out the vendor, whereas on USB it might be the needle in a haystack). Just saying that the current generation of hubs and docks might live off of the only available chipset with the same flaws. Remember that with TB5 hubs/docks we are on the bleeding edge of connectivity and not much choice currently - neither for customers, nor for vendors. This will be different in 1 or 2 years time, given TB5 gains enough traction.

[@andrewsmith9075]

I do skip parts but i do back and watch all of it when I am sat down

[@maxhill9254]

Thanks, very helpful information

[@cwaynefox]

Glad it was helpful!

[@jasonkennedy2045]

Great review mate, solid info. Thanks 👍

[@cwaynefox]

thanks

[@jeffwaite7413]

Good luck pushing the cable in the cling ons. My thunderbolt 4 cables are a struggle pushing through the cling ons.

[@cwaynefox]

Thanks for the feedback. I’ll have to order a few and give them a try. there’s only a couple I worry about, those attached to storage devices and occasionally I’ll pull one of those out when trying to change out something else, and get the dreaded “device was not disconnected correctly” message.

[@ahgflyguy]

A few notes: the TB4 and (I think) TB5 ports on these hubs are interchangeable regarding which is downstream and which is upstream. The Thunderbolt controller chip inside doesn’t care. The only real difference is the power output, and most docks only have one port that goes above 15W. Note 2: Thunderbolt 3 (and 4) can do dual 4k144 as long as you can force one of the display connections to be a two-lane Alt-Mode connection. Note 3: I have a pair of identical TB3 docks that have built-in enclosures, and I can Daisy-chain them. One of the SSDs gets a 1000MB/s write speed penalty when it is in the downstream dock, but not when it is in the upstream dock. The other SSD doesn’t get a read or write speed penalty by being in either upstream or downstream. These are both Gen4 drives and the one without the write showdown gets 7k read/write when installed directly in a windows machine. The other one I’m not sure of. So the write-speed penalty you were seeing might be a property of your enclosure being downstream of a hub, and ALSO a property of the model of SSD. So you might try that again with a different SSD and see if that matters. Keep it up! I’ll be buying a TB5 computer in 2027 or 2028 probably. Hopefully the bugs are worked out by then!

[@cwaynefox]

interesting about the ports. I’ll have to try that, I guess it means as long as you have another way to the charge the laptop, you can connect the upstream to any port and use the “upstream” port as a downstream port. Would be nice for those devices that put the upstream port on the front! I'll Have to give the a try. As far as the tests, I tried with Samsung and WD SSD,s 3 different enclosures. No speed hit when attached to a TB3 or 4 dock or hub, only issue is connected to a TB 5 dock or hub. Somehow the system is throttling the bandwidth. The Mac sees these as either TB3 40Gbps or USB4 40Gbps devices, so seems it wouldn’t be doing it (I could easily be wrong about that, it certainly could be something in the OS and the hub and Mac aren’t playing nice with each other). I’ll have to figure out how to test this device on a windows machine with TB5 somewhere.

[@ahgflyguy]

@@cwaynefoxI just got better information: TB3 ports are interchangeable Upstream vs downstream. But TB4 and 5 are not. Sorry for the bad information, all I have is TB3 hubs to work with right now.

[@timgoeke253]

I also have the new OWC TB 5 with other TB 3 & 4 devices. I wasn't able to get my OWC TB4 hub to be discovered when chained downstream from the OWC TB5 hub. Secondly, any kind of bumping will cause connected devices to disconnect for both hubs, I use the clingons to keep them connected.

[@cwaynefox]

What computer/OS are using? I could daisy chain the OWC TB4 hub no problem. As far as bumping, I haven’t really seen any problem with that.

[@timgoeke253]

Since I've gotten the new TB5 hub, I'm seeing a lot more of the "device not properly ejected" notifications. I have both the new hub and my old one connected directly. Very often when my Mac wakes up from sleep, the new TB5 hub is not recognized by the system.

[@cwaynefox]

are you using Sequoia?

[@psoon04286]

Thanks for the review on what can be considered a boring subject, but lately there’s been lots of claims on external NVME replacing the onboard drives and saving lots instead of opting for the bigger drives when ordering your M Macs. So far there has not been any combination that shown it to be true. You’ll end up with heavy cables connected to hubs/external enclosures that double as space heaters and that don’t come anywhere close to the internal drives. Having said all that I still have a collection of branded external SSDs as well as M.2 in various gen enclosures cause I have tons of hi-res videos and just need the storage. So yeah, read speeds are more useful mostly but when transfering write speeds do count. Talking of unboxing videos, I usually skip them except once when I was looking at a 75” TV upgrade and found the unboxing portion to be really helpful to avoid damaging the new purchase. Cheers from Vancouver🇨🇦👍🏼🙂

[@cwaynefox]

Thanks for the comment. I have been using the new Acasis TB501 (pretty small) with a 4TB WD sn850x for a few weeks now. With a small Thunderbolt cable attached to my Mac I get consistent read and write speeds of 5800 MB/s. My internal M4 Max SSD gets 6600 read 5400 write. I think we’re finally at a point that a small external SSD will perform close enough to the internal ones to consider smaller internal drives with a small external SSD enclosure. I hear you on unboxing videos ... I try to keep that section pretty short for most of this stuff and usually it’s also talking about other related items. just fun to do.

[@SoftwareManiacLSM]

Were the external displays Thunderbolt or USB-C/alt-DP?

[@cwaynefox]

external displays all set to DisplayPort, using a USB C to DisplayPort cable.

[@amigatommy7]

I have a dock for more A ports on a Caldigit (3 usbc/thunderbolt 3 ports)

[@cwaynefox]

I assume you’re talking about caldigits TB4 hub. Nice because it’s 2 hubs built into one device, TB hub and small USB hub.. It’s a good device. I’m assuming they’re working on a TB5 upgrade that will offer the same features and for many will be a good choice. Attaching a USB 3.2 hub to the OWC’s USB port works quite well, for me better because I need about 7 USB ports at minimum (as well as the 4 or 5 of those on the CalDigit TS4 dock).

[@EasyyokeFilms]

We enjoy the box opening actually! Dont stop

[@cwaynefox]

thanks I appreciate that.

[@tek_soup]

owc needs to make a new pro dock with 25 gbe.

[@cwaynefox]

I’d be happy with 2.5 gbe (less that than and it’s a. non starter for me) , but it seems at minimum they need to get to 10 gbe in their ThunderBolt 5 Dock when they introduce it just to remain competitive. Not sure anyone will put 25 in a dock, prob add quite a bit to the price for a very limited market that needs that much speed.

[@tek_soup]

@@cwaynefox somebody, does make a 25gbe thunderbolt device. all you do is throw a nick in a chasi. i have a thunderbolt 2 chasi with a 10gbe nick in it. sonnettech seL i think? sitting in closet. i have 2 owc 10gbe pro docks, the cost, has come down a lot, i bought 2 new mellanox connect x-4 25gbe nics off of ebay, they were cheep, and backwards compatible.

[@johngroverdotcom]

Hi Wayne, Great show, Thanks! Would you consider hosting a photography contest? allow 1 image or max 20 second video. prize provided by one of your vendors. thanks! 🐱

[@TheDefpom]

Seems like a waste really, if i'm buying a dock I would want a lot more ports on it, I still have and use lots of USB-A devices, as a electronics KZbinr that also live streams I need about 10 USB-A ports for cameras and other devices that are connected to my computer, at the very least they could have put a SD card slot on it, and maybe an HDMI.

[@cwaynefox]

This isn’t a dock. This is a hub. The Docks will run closer to the $400-500 range and offer what you want. The hubs are for those that just need to connect a couple of displays and and maybe some other things. The current calDigit hub is nice because it has 4 downstream USB ports as well as the 3 TB ports, I assume they have a TB5 version that hub in the works. For many it will be a good choice. I have an USB 3.2 8 port hub attached to the USB port on this hub with 7 devices running to it (a couple of scanners, printers, a BOSE audio system) and they all work fine. But if you want the things you mention, I’m guessing the TB5 docks will be showing up very soon. Although for most a good TB4 or even TB3 or USB4 dock would be more than enough, unless you really need some throughput to your external storage. The Kensington TB5 dock offers the same connections as this hub, but adds 2 more USB ports, and audio in/out port and a 2.5 gbe ethernet port. But those few additional ports set you back another $200.

[@pan6593]

Attach a USB dock/hub to it, done.

[@pan6593]

Great vid - happy to have found this channel! Subbd.