CWD Fails and Fallacies

[@Paulannear]

Almost 50% of the bucks we've killed (13) since 2019 have tested positive for CWD. Two weeks ago, I was turkey hunting and walked up on a sick deer. Skinny, fearless, shaky and dripping from his mouth and had wounds all over his backside from coyotes. We got to within 10 yards. I was able to contact DNR and put it down. They won't test him out of season unfortunately, but pretty certain he had CWD. I make my living off the hunting industry in two different ways, so I feel a responsibility to care and be concerned about CWD. I'm glad you put these videos out Jeff because a lot of other higher up folks in the industry stay completely silent on the issue and they literally have made their entire fame and fortune off the industry and the whitetail deer. Besides shooting positive deer, and seeing the buck a few weeks ago, we've had other bucks act odd on our property and they also ended up testing positive. I wouldn't say it is a huge problem, but it could be a problem and that is where the issue lies. There are still major unknowns and that's the scary part. Like you, I am also puzzled at why people in the epicenter of CWD (like myself) get bucks on camera year after year during maturity. Can't answer that one. All I know is that I personally have seen CWD up close, right in front of my face, literally. I think if more people were along with me a few weeks ago they would feel differently knowing they were staring at a buck 10 yards away that was infected, it really hit home for me. It's one thing to kill an outwardly healthy deer with CWD during the season, it's a totally different ballgame walking up on a sick buck about to tip over dead from the final stages of CWD. I don't think we need to go wild killing every deer we see, but COULD be a huge problem in 10, 20, 50, 60 years, we don't know and that is the scary part. To answer a few of the questions, here are my thoughts. 1. Annihilation zones: I am not necessarily in support of them, but Missouri is proving culling to be successful in stopping the spread, and there is no debating it. They have extremely low rates of CWD mainly because they tested for CWD, found CWD, and are doing targeted culling. Again, don't always agree with it and I would HATE IT if they did this on my land, but it does work in some cases. mdc.mo.gov/hunting-trapping/species/deer/chronic-wasting-disease/post-season-targeted-culling 2. I'm with you Jeff, I don't understand the mowing a trail through corn law either. Can't help you here and it doesn't really make sense 3. I think testing needs to continue, but needs to be tweaked. It takes 10-15 days to get a result back, it's too long. Testing where CWD already is doesn't really help anyone, but testing in states and counties where it isn't can be helpful at least. I will not eat meat from a CWD positive deer, but don't blame people who do. Personal choice. 4. Seems totally wrong that hunters can't bait, but CWD sharpshooters can. I get it, but again, the culling does work. Moving deer for deer farming and moving carcasses across county and state lines is probably a bigger deal than baiting, in my opinion. 5. Hasn't knowingly transferred to humans, but I'm not going to take the chance.

[@barnowlhoots5229]

The purpose of culling is not to remove all deer and ignore the surrounding area. The purpose is to limit prevalence within focal areas. It's a highly communicable disease and rate of spread is therefore density dependent. Reducing density reduces contact rates which reduces rate of spread from focal areas. I feel this is pretty intuitive. State wildlife management agencies are entrusted to do what they can to ensure the health of wildlife resources in their jurisdictions, and doing nothing is not an option. You can only pull the levers you have access to, and increased removal is an accessible lever, but when we're talking about culling, it's not a lever a state agency can ever afford to pull everywhere. There's only so many resources to go around, and so there will be focal areas for culling efforts and increased reliance on sportsmen to achieved higher removal rates outward from focal areas. RE: your issues with the corn trail, some laws are just weird, but laws are a pain to change. In my state, it's typically a ~2 year process to change a law (not a Dept. rule, which is a shorter process), and when a bill is submitted before a committee, they have to think very critically about how it will be treated within that committee. I've watched on as bills go into committee one way and ultimately pass through with entirely different language and subject matter. Sometimes a slightly quirky law is really not worth messing with if it could open a Pandora's box of who-knows-what. In any case, it's never a CO's fault for enforcing the laws that are in place, but I'm sure you have developed some great relationships with all the COs you've interacted with over the years and know this better than anyone. If you have an issue with a law, a good argument for a better law, and if that better law is enforceable, you should reach out to your local house or senate rep and see if they'd be willing to sponsor a bill on your behalf. I see a lot of people express concerns about laws with zero willingness to take part in the process to make them better. I'd encourage any sportsmen to at some point follow a bill through their state legislature or present testimony or something just to get involved and see how the legislative process works. I'd emphasize that anyone consider enforceability of a new law though; a lot of people seem to forget that. Like I've seen a lot of people try to argue for food plot bans without offering any suggestion how to differentiate between a food plot, a garden, an ag field, etc. "Intent" doesn't work, because good luck asking COs to prove intent. "Excuse me, sir, is this a food plot you're hunting over?" "Nope, I just like clover. This is my clover garden." On testing, agencies are attempting to manage prevalence of CWD. Most use some sort of sampling scheme to determine the number of samples needed for some level of statistical certainty, e.g. how many samples do I need to know with 99% certainty that I'm detecting CWD in a population with 1% prevalence? This requires a lot of samples if disease distribution is high. You can't test 100 deer from a state with 50,000 square miles of suitable habitat and think you've learned anything. CWD is not yet known to be transferrable to humans, but this is a calculation that has to be left to individuals to make. Government agencies don't have the luxury of taking those sorts of risks with human health, see 1980's BSE outbreak in UK. Government agencies have to be abundantly cautious. Hunters can make that choice on their own whether to eat venison from a CWD-positive animal. Some agencies may use bait for culling, some not. I've seen USDA APHIS work, and they can be unbelievably efficient with our without bait. Always going to depend on the area though. If you have pretty homogenous habitat and uniformly spread deer, baiting might be necessary. If you have mixed habitat and can find deer on edges, much different situation. I'm not quite sure why it would be an issue to use bait for culling when the area already has deer feeding, but if it's baiting in an area without feeding, then I understand the confusion, but again, you have to pull the levers you have access to. If the most efficient way for you to remove a lot of deer quickly is with bait, then you may have to bait. Culling is not hunting after all. It's just killing as quickly and efficiently as you can. I think a common theme I'd offer in response to some of your perspectives is that I love the optimism that common sense can run everything, but that's almost never actually the case. Your local biologist will add their 2 cents, your local sportsmen will add theirs, agency leadership will pile on some more, legislative committees and agency councils will pile on some more yet, maybe your governor gets involved, and what comes out the back end of everything will never be what went in the front end. Even the tastiest food plot pickings eventually fall to the ground as poo. Forgive the rambling, I'm not sure why I decided such a long comment on this specific topic was necessary.

[@peteolsen17]

super well reasoned for what it's worth Barnowl Hoots. I'm guessing your message flew over the heads of many but I for one appreciate the time you took.. And I hope Jeff read it.

[@rfb7117]

Jeff, as you know we own a farm in the epicenter of CWD in WI. Twenty years ago the DNR stated we would not see any mature bucks, and we would lose the entire deer here to CWD if we did not act quickly. Their answer was to bait and kill the deer with sharpshooters. All it did was pit landowner against landowner and ruin longterm neighboring friendships. In the end the DNR realized it was IMPOSSIBLE to eliminate the wild deer herd in the area. We currently have a County Deer Advisory Committee managing the herd to "maintain" the current herd level, and it is working. On our farm we are managing for carrying capacity and mature bucks, and we have been successful in doing both. I harvested a sick buck 2 yrs. ago that tested positive, so we indeed do have CWD on our farm. In talking to many sportsmen in the area, the question is "are you enjoying your hunting experience", and the resounding answer is yes. Until sportsmen start seeing sick deer dropping dead on the land they hunt, they are going to continue to live with it, and many feel it has been with us for a very very long time. With so many trail cameras out today, sportsmen have a very good idea of the health of the herd they are hunting. Although CWD is #1 on many of the DNR employee's list, it is not #1 on the sportsmen list..and remember in the end the sportsmen is the final manager by releasing an arrow or bullet. Thanks Jeff for your honest approach.

[@Cody_Buck]

Jeff, you are so smart, brother. We need more great thinkers like you in the hunting world. God bless you brother. Thanks for the great content.

[@whitetailhabitatsolutions9751]

That means a great deal Cody...thank you and I appreciate you following the channel! Most of all I hope it all helps!

[@Cody_Buck]

@whitetailhabitatsolutions9751 you're an inspiring figure in the whitetail world, brother. Your information is very helpful.

[@peterj727]

Totally agree with all of these. We had a great conversation about CWD back in March on the site visit. Being open minded and using common sense is so important for all us to grow and learn. Take a look at Colorado who has had cwd for decades and still has the largest elk herd in the world and one of the best deer hunting states the west has to offer.

[@nickgironda8932]

Sorry, Jeff, I have no good answers for you. ID LIKE TO HEAR THE ANSWERS, TOO! GREAT video, THANK YOU!!

[@RushOutdoors]

Hello Jeff I have one spot in the core area in Wisconsin 175 acres near Barneveld. Your statement about the 3yrs old buck question. Here is my observations since the onset of CWD. The first few years of CWD meaning 4 yrs. We took many bucks off the property mostly myself, and the landowner my brother in law. The age class of the bucks was from 2.5 to 8yrs of age. documented from cutting teeth. Then about year 5 or 6 we did notice not seeing or taking bucks on the property more than 3.5 yrs old, but to be honest I think it was more due to the numbers changing in the area meaning deer numbers did go down due to taking of many animals bucks, and does. Which in hindsight that was not a great idea I would figure with what Tom and I know now, but we did it. Mistake!!!! This lasted for about 4 yrs. now that being said we have since had a good age group of bucks from 1.5 yrs to what we believe is 5.5 to 6.5yrs. The neighbors have helped also as we have a pretty good group of landowners in the area. So in my view in a CWD area yes bucks will get older than 3 yrs old. Great show!!!! I have some other things to say with some of the other question you asked but this is getting pretty long and know you don't like long answers. Someday maybe we will be able to meet sit down and have a great discussion about this stuff. Have a great day Jeff

[@justinjhauser5110]

Amen Jeff. Refreshing to hear common sense.

[@matthewc2850]

One of your best videos yet.

[@whitetailhabitatsolutions9751]

Thank you Matthew!

[@matthewc2850]

@@whitetailhabitatsolutions9751 I've watched your videos for years. Love what you do I'm in NY so far from ya but this video hit home. We have the sharpshooters here doing the same thing. I disagree with the whole approach. If they want to get rid of more deer weather it's for disease control or too many deer vehicle accidents give out tags to hunters and let their family and friends enjoy the meat / experience in the woods.

[@randyh.6019]

WOW Jeff you really get fired up!! Great to see. Minnesota hunters biggest problem? The Minnesota D.N.R.!

[@janitorialguy4436]

Thanks Jeff, a serious topic that I am truly ignorant about. I’m not aware of any issues in my area, I hope it all works out.

[@davidcombs6170]

Stating up front that I am not a believer in the CWD topic for my farm, I attended an Iowa online workshop chaired by the Iowa DNR and Iowa State University, with State of Iowa Biologist, on CWD. The premise of the data presented was that CWD is spread primarily by 3-year old bucks into the doe population. Iowa State offered that the solution to this problem is to kill more Does. They opined that there is no major CWD problem in Iowa -- like in Wisconsin -- but Iowa is trying to stay ahead of it so Science can provide a solution before it heavily impacts Iowa. Multiple CWD mitigation questions were posed in the Chat box such as the impacts of agricultural practices (fertilizers / herbicides / insecticides) impact on limiting CWD in the soil. Also, salt and mineral and if CWD can survive in the salt-based environment. As the workshop continued, it became more obvious that the ISU and DNR Biologists were becoming more disarmed in their arguments. As you say in this Video, more testing begets more positives and creates a foundation for the argument. The testing and science is not there yet. My opinion: the CWD topic generates funding for both the DNR and Universities creating the studies. Last thought, if you are unfortunate enough to be a CWD depleted deer on our farm you will be culled by the coyotes quickly. Farmer theory is that the CWD will then be spread by the coyotes via dung and area of the kill -- not buying into the hypothesis though it makes for good convo in the coffee shop.

[@MegaBucky007]

My buddy shot the first CWD deer, at first the D.N.R didnt want anything to do with it and then they confiscated it. I shot a buck just north of MountHoreb,Wis. Aged at 10 yrs old and it DID NOT HAVE C.W.D.

[@benmeinking5473]

Jeremy and Jared from the Huntr podcast covered CWD and the sharpshooting topic back in February with Bronson Strickland. They seemed to be more in favor of state management of it. It would be interesting for you to do a collaboration with them on this issue. I know you've been on their podcast a few times.

[@Ufishinfeathiesp]

I agree with all of this Jeff. Love the comparison with cwd and COVID. I wonder how many years cwd has been present but went undetected. Most animals have some sort of disease

[@the_quest_outdoors10]

love this video! shot a bow buck this year 6 yr old that was in a high cwd county. ?

[@noelthombs9859]

? Any info on mineral rocks/licks spreading CWD among the herd?? ?

[@melburn74]

Your questions and suspicions are valid. Most of the CWD management options are not evidenced based and can essentially be boiled down to...we have to do SOMETHING....whatever that something is, because it makes us feel better about the situation...CWD was here before most of us were alive, and it will be here after we're all dead. It's not going anywhere. What about all the cwd positive animals that were eaten before we tested animals. It must be in the millions. Do you see anyone walking around with CWD? I'm going to eat what I kill unless the animal is obviously sick. I won't be testing the animals I harvest. If covid taught us anything, it was NOT to trust the experts and that the response to the problem is usually worse than the problem itself. The only thing these state agencies are going to accomplish is needlessly killing healthy deer, infringing, restricting, and over-regulating hunters and land owners, putting outfitters out of business, and in the end CWD will still be here just the same as it was 50 years ago....lastly...does anyone know the false positive rate of testing?...

[@whitetailhabitatsolutions9751]

Amen...such wise words and thoughts that completely escape the "experts" dictating management efforts.

[@Mossy-back-blacktail]

Why is it that Washington state has never been hit with it even though there's a population of over 100,000 whitetail? And do you believe it'll reach the state of eventually?

[@puerdei2552]

Thanks For sharing your experience in the deer woods. I manage just over 400 acres in sw Virginia, 20 years ago it started with quail and grouse then to rabbits then deer and now turkey all have decreased on the property I manage farming and hunting pressure have also decreased in the past decade or so also I believe over population of predators play a big part of the problem

[@swampbiologist]

If you want to know the future of CWD in your area, refer to Colorado where CWD was first discovered in the 1960's!

[@randycope5826]

I live in DMU 487 NE Michigan. I'm curious if this info is applicable to TB in deer at all? Maybe a video idea? Thanks for the great work as always 👍🏼

[@southoutmcknight3263]

I’m glad you tackled this topic. I surely don’t agree with the Annihilation zones. I haven’t heard of any human contact either. Have heard that it cooks out with normal cooking practices. I don’t worry about it and I don’t participate in the CWD drop zones that have been set up in my state of Al. Love your channel and your knowledge is appreciated.

[@ducklingwarrior]

It most certainly does not cook out. That works for bacteria and such but what is being discussed here is misfolded proteins. These prions (the type of protien that is affected) can withstand temperatures of 1000 degrees and stull remain intact. Because they are not living organisms that are doing the infecting there is no 'killing' them. Also sorry for replying on a 6 month old comment. Just personally think it is important to know this if a person is a hunter :)

[@dannyhall7656]

If baiting bans work why is the states that have had the longest ban on baiting has most cwd but the states that allow baiting cwd is not spreading .😒

[@rwmack3523]

I'm in CT where weve got deer that would historically eat themselves into starvation through winter. We are required to turn in our 4th rag of the year for a replacement 5th and continuing on for 6th and beyond. Essentially, limitless tags if we keep bringing in heads. As far as I'm aware, weve had no CWD here depite having so many deer theyre walking in fourway intersections in cities like Norwich and Groton. Its fascinating. Prion diseases are intriguing and I respect the decision to not eat CWD positive harvests for the same reason we shouldnt eat mad cow beef. It might not hurt us, but thats not zero and I'm not comfortable with my family eating something that came back positive for something that might be harmless, but might NOT be. I dont suspect it would spillover into human species because prion diseases are usually very niche to their species. That said, there's always the roll of the dice that the prion protein DOES cause a reaction in someone. Until I see real evidence with substance, I'm erring on the side of caution. CWD demands more research. Its covid all over again: we just don't know and not knowing is leading us to possibly overreact. Maybe were UNDERreacting! We dont know and that's the problem. Until we do, I'm not making any definitive statements one way or another. I. Just going to play safe until I know within existing guidelines. That doesn't mean we ever stop asking for more good data though.

[@robertpettit2636]

All about money I agree with everything you said

[@ihus9950]

I'd like to here some answers, to the Question you bring up👍🏻

[@larrydobbe980]

We have land in CWD zones of WI and we harvest 20+ deer a year. Our bucks run 90% CWD positive and range in age from 1 to 4 years old. Our does run 3-10% positive. It is just the opposite your comments on prevalence.

[@jonathanfaulds9645]

Great content.. I totally agree. I've heard they don't want mouth to mouth touching, that's why they don't want baiting... I see deer in the wild licker each outhers mouth all the time.

[@DustinDoerr]

Amen Jeff! Love this video

[@robertpettit2636]

We has always been here they just test for it now used to call it winter kill

[@nickgironda8932]

Illinois, by their own studies, back in ‘12-‘13 season, posted a less than 1% occurrence of CWD. It was upon this that they justified a whitetail deer murder spree. Sending night time “biologists sharpshooters” to murder as many of the kings deer as possible OVER BAIT on private property WITHOUT PRIOR PERMISSION! At least one property owner was even ARRESTED when he “interfered” with one of these murder operations taking place on his farm in the middle of the night! I left that failed state in ‘16 and they were still doing it then. Big government = less constitutional rights.

[@timhatfield6367]

We've had a very difficult time getting our local deer herd to comply with a mask mandate. And they cross our roads without a deer crossing sign within sight! I say ask Ted Nugent...he'll tell us all about it...and more! You both Rock!

[@Ufishinfeathiesp]

Id love to see you interview Whitetail deer expert Richard P Smith 😂😂

[@personalprojectile]

Spot on Jeff. It all makes sense if you view it thru the eyes of auto insurance companies.....follow the money.

[@kjaydub]

I agree with a lot of what Jeff said, but his points were not conspiracy theories like this. As an insurance underwriter I can assure you the companies aren’t out here blowing money lobbying anyone to reduce deer herds 😅 We quite literally employ people with PhDs in math (actuaries) who use hard, historical statistical data to calculate rates damn near down to the city block. We also PLAN to pay claims… it’s the name of the game. On any given year, we expect a combined ratio of 94-99% loss. If you want to talk “follow the money” - we might charge more for “comp” specifically in rural areas because we have data to suggest there are more deer hits in those areas. If the herd is decreased per your suggestion of lobbying state officials, we’d simply adjust our rates to charge less in those areas because the “odds” of a claim are lower, and they’d still be calculated to the same expected combined ratio of 94-99%. This is only 1 of a thousand other data points that might be used to determine rate (and eligibility!). My point here is that it would be a waste of our time to try to manipulate the market like you’re suggesting… that’d be f“speculative” of the future on our part, and speculation leaves open a lot of opportunity for things to go sideways out of our control. The only way to “control” how much we lose is by using historical statistical data. I guess I’ll leave it at that for now…

[@personalprojectile]

@@kjaydub As an underwriter you're pretty far down the Pole. For you to claim you know what the bankers who own the insurance companies have as motives is quite the conspiracy theory

[@personalprojectile]

@@kjaydub Do you know where the deer herd estimates come from? The deer density maps are brought to you courtesy of State Farm in Michigan. About 10 years ago the maps actually had in small print that all the data came from State Farm they may have removed that by now but I doubt they changed the source

[@austinmellott6373]

Jeff I'd like to see you and Don higgins get together. I live in PA and we r fighting cwd and our game commission is doing a lot of annihilation areas everywhere

[@MegaBucky007]

Jeff, C.W.D has been here since 2002. Hunting hasn't been better near MountHoreb.

[@whitetailhabitatsolutions9751]

Yes for sure ..so have I 😁 I work down there all the time... GREAT hunting!!

[@adventureswithjohnmumford.9900]

They do it for job security.

[@danorris5235]

Government policies and solutions often make no sense. Take driving for example: You're required by law to prove you're capable of operating a motor vehicle. Even if all you ever do is drive a truck on your own property without it ever touching a public road you have to be licensed, insured, and pay your tabs or you're getting lit up by the law. And you never have to retest if you have previously passed the tests (unless you don't renew your license, because that means you've forgotten how to drive). Or, you know, paying road tax on the gas for your chainsaw and lawnmower. The long-winded point is the government doesn't have the answers, doesn't make much sense on a good day, doesn't ever need to explain itself, won't go out of its way to explain its actions, and I expect all these things to happen with something like handling CWD. Hell, government even thinks you can wind a bunch of clocks around and change the amount of daylight that exists (only somewhat kidding there).

[@pre_ban_andy]

Maybe John Darling would talk to you. He's the field manager @ Harsen's Island. Call his office.

[@JimHerman-o3q]

First of all........ you wont waste the meat if you never had it in the first place ! At 9:40

[@jacob4047]

👍

[@RHPowerchessehuntin]

I was greedy and wanted another tag last year and this year. Last year, it was negative, and this year, it was positive. I got another tag, but what I did was not worth it. I scared my family. My wife won't eat it now. I never tested my deer, and I am still alive. Please help me convince my wife that this meat is okay. Again, I regret testing it. I love hunting and don't care if it tests positive. I will eat it anyway.

[@marcusrowan7465]

Great discussion. Seems like so much doesnt add up.... follow the science. Trust the experts.... right

[@whitetailhabitatsolutions9751]

So many different "experts" with so many different agendas...

[@jondoe7528]

The truth is the dnr knows once its in an area its not gonna ever leave its been around 60 plus year for gods sake. But the real truth is money. They have been told to keep inforcing it or they'll lose there funding. It's sad that everything in the hunting world including what you do is money based and I know your trying to educate hunters I get it and you need compensation to keep doing it.

[@buckydavis9434]

I had a neighbor tell me because of the water wholes I put in that’s how our deer got it

[@smallfishbigpond5047]

Giant elephant in the room are deer farms. Get rid of them and stop new CWD outbreaks that occur because of them!

[@whitetailhabitatsolutions9751]

Man I wish they were to blame...but unfortunately CWD is everywhere at this point, with or without deer farms. The farms are more of a scapegoat. We just need to learn to live with CWD in balance...and make appropriate decisions not based on opinions. There is rarely a statewide decision made, that is based on a thing but opinion.

[@makeyourownluck5822]

I feel bad for the people who pursued a job with the DNR because they love the outdoors and wildlife just as much as the rest of us and then have to enforce these rules and regulations that they at first knew they made no common sense and then end up believing in it to justify their employment! Find a new career and get back to being the person you used to be!!!

[@kurtpearson2793]

😂

[@bowman8316]

Suckisms ! Hahaha 👍🏻🦌

[@bowman8316]

Grrr

[@ulfurgaming4268]

:)

[@scottb6098]

Bottom line: our government is clueless.

[@j23bizzle]

Bronson

[@runtimmytimer]

And so many people worship the alter of the almighty government. Follow the science 🤣 you’re not supposed to think Jeff.

[@gaigehinspeter2159]

First

[@travisethridge4062]

More government programs with a bloated budget... Brought to you by you, the taxpayer.

[@usernamehere6061]

Most state agencies are funded through hunting license sales and receive no tax dollars. I don't blame the DNR. It is their job to do the best they can to research these things and try to curb its impact on populations for the longevity of the species. Hunters cannot see this, they think agencies are lining their pockets when the reality is most agencies are grossly under-funded.

[@travisethridge4062]

@C . The problem is that they are so underfunded. CWD is the fear porn to recieve more money. All derived from tax dollars.

[@JimHerman-o3q]

Open minded........but closed minded relating to the real problem !!!! Too many deer ! Address the real problem please !

[@joncrane7661]

Then cwd, canadian wolves, and grizzly and brown black bears will put them in their place. It is a multi million dollar industry now though

[@IsaacSwift-uc7jq]

First