Cycle Stop Valves ARE BAD for pressure tank systems! CONDENSED VERSION!

[@LarryElterman]

Correction. This diagram starting at 4:20 is wrong, the pressure switch should go on the pressure tank.

[@MrSwampthug]

I'm just a grocery store worker.... but I bought a CSV and their larger (but still small) 10 gallon tank. Has about 1.8 gallons of drawdown. As a homeowner I'm pleased. I get constant 74psi out of the faucets, no water hammer, and even at the washing of hands the pump once it is turned on always runs for about 2 minutes. (So no short cycling)... the winner for me was the fact that the whole kit was cheaper than the original 119 gallon tank I was going to buy. Also surprisingly the amp draw (load during operation) went down substantially. It works good for my family. I'm getting the same performance as my neighbor that has a vfd for only a few hundred bucks. Maybe it's just me. But I like it so far... time will tell.

[@LarryElterman]

ok, im glad it works for you. In some circumstances it's ok, even if there is usually a better way.

[@MegaPROELIATOR]

I bought a CSV and when I got it in my hands I started trying to figure out how it works. I came up with yes your pump will cycle less but since its just reducing flow its the same as much higher head pressure so ill be using more power to get the same amount of water! so to take my pump that puts out 25 gpm at ground lever at 60 psi now I would be putting out 2 gpm at 60 psi and the pump is simply struggling more because it feels its pushing up hill like another 100 feet!

[@LarryElterman]

Exactly

[@borderlineapathetic]

"Get a separate pump for your irrigation" LOLOL I've been using a CSV1 for 7 years with a 44G pressure tank. Runs my irrigation for hours, keeps my showers constant and keeps my sub-pump from cycling when my iron filter backwashes every 3 days. I find this vid odd, why it's so personal with the creator...Did the creator's wife sleep with Mr. CSV or something? LOL

[@allenblackmer9583]

Agreed it clearly must work if it’s been in production and sold since 1993. If it did nothing and was trash how is he staying in business? My take on is, a cycle stop valve has its uses just depends on your situation. May be beneficial In some systems but may be useless is others. Definitely comes off as almost like jealousy that he didn’t think of a cycle stop valve first or maybe he did but Mr.Cary Austin got her patented first lol. May just be teetering on a defamation case in the making. Wether in the form of libel or slander

[@HotNoob]

im living in a tiny ass shed... under 100sqft... was able to fit a 30 gallon tank in or so... but my well produces 33 gpm, and i wanted to be able to use the full 33 gpm to irrigate the fields. so... csv. tried it as a temp solution... definitately has no electrical savings. there are also no plumbers near by, so vfd would have to be self installed.. and have their own technical problems. my long term solution is to just drill another well for a different building, because only 50ft, and get a smaller pump with a nice large tank. being in canada, reliability is a must; if the well pump breaks and isnt replaced asap, could end up with no more water for the rest of the winter.

[@rkramer]

Do both... I'm really happy with a CSV AND a large pressure tank system (2 20 gallon pre charged). I closely monitor pressure and pump cycles, and running this combo has cut my cycles down by almost half. The other thing worth considering is that a CSV (with large tanks) is going to take better advantage of tank storage. Using the long shower example, my tanks are going to always be 100% full when I shut off the shower. Without a CSV, they might be nearly empty, depending on where the system was in its cycle.

[@LarryElterman]

Ok, sure, if you don't mind the two problems associated with your setup. 1. The non steady pressure at the beginning of each run as the tanks first have to empty, the pump goes on, and then the pressure has to go up to what the CSV is set to. Then, when the water is no longer being consumed the two 20 gallon tanks have to refill at the 1 gpm rate which will take like at least ten minutes of extra pump run time. It works, but as I always say, there are better and cheaper ways. See my video about how to make DIY CSVs.

[@catsmeow5566]

@@LarryElterman Is making a DIY CSV even worth it? Or is it better to just work with a system with a 500 gallon system before the jet pump and a ?? gallon pressure tank (I don't see markings for capacity so have to look it up, but it's fairly large)? This is my current setup.

[@StudioRV8]

I've had VFD's and CSV, and I'll use a CSV over a VFD any day. I've used CSV's for over 30 years in many homes, and CSV's work perfectly as described. If all you are doing is taking a shower and flushing a few toilets, just get a larger tank. There is no need for either a CFD or a CSV. If you have any application demanding lots of water (irrigation, etc), a CSV works perfectly. It greatly reduces pump cycling. However, I'm not a fan of using small tanks for CSVs. Use a reasonably large tank and you really get the best of both words. I currently have an 80 gal tank. Works great for the occasional shower and toilet flush, and when you are irrigating for 3 hours at a time, the pump comes on once and stays on. There is no need to load balance your irrigation zones. The simple solution is a reasonably large tank and CSV.

[@catsmeow5566]

Thank you. I've seen someone who works for the CSV posting on various plumbing sites pushing the CSV and I was almost sold on it (liked the idea of a smaller pressure tank) but I wasn't sure if it really was good or not. I have a system that has a main pump that pulls water from underground into a 500 gallon cistern. From there it has a jet pump that pushes to a pressure tank. After the pressure tank it splits into 3 lines-- two for outdoor areas for hoses (one of which currently has nothing connected as the lines all broke). Another outside one can run a couple of hoses and has a water trough with automatic filler. House has 3 full bathrooms plus laundry & kitchen sink. What size pressure tank would you recommend for that? Right now I have some large fiberglass one that sits on the ground and gets in the way. I was thinking a smaller tank would save space but I wonder if I can just put a tank somewhere out of the way- mounted near or on a wall with extra reinforcements. It's in a metal shed so I would have to add supports. The plumbing right now is a mess. Pressure switch (30/50) is mounted to the jet pump itself. Any suggestions on streamlining/fixing it up?

[@tbeall07161990]

You are quoting a “small tank” that will trigger the cycle stop valve several times even when not needed like when you flush a toilet. What if you had a larger tank such as a 20gal tank? That way the only time the valve is active is when you have water on for extended period of time? It doesn’t seem as inefficient then but would like to hear your input.

[@LarryElterman]

yes, you are right, but then you don't have constant pressure during normal usage

[@mylittlealaska]

Hello! I am considering adding another water line to the lower part of a property to supply a cabin. I have a 1.5 hp submersible pump and a 20 gal 30/50 switch. I am wondering if a csv would be advisable. I've heard that one tank usually can supply 2 homes but the second cabin will be over 200 ft away and I'm not sure to what extent that will affect pressure (The other property is downhill from the pump and I was hoping to use a 1" waterline I already have.) What would you advise to maintain water pressure? Thanks! -Tiffany P.S. I am generator only currently so sometimes the tank empties completely without refilling until generator is back on. Not sure if that matters in terms of csv functionality.

[@cks7277]

Hi Larry, I have an 86 gallon tank and a 40-60 pressure switch, with a drilled well using a 1.5 hp submersible pump. I use this well for watering plants in greenhouses. i seem to burn through a pump on average every 3-3.5 years because the pump cycles on and off so much. Any suggestions on how I can get a longer life out of my well pump, thanks

[@councilor762]

You are using to much water, sounds like your recovery rate is to low for your pump. Do you find sediment in your filters? If not then the only other reason your pumps are not lasting is cavitation again from lack of a recovery rate.

[@michaelherrera-jh5gm]

I need to run my house and fish farm off one 4" well and maintain constant pressure to run my house and also have an outlet with little to no pressure that has a water discharge rate of 0-40 GPM and runs constantly for my fish farm. I think a CSV may work well for this. i live in an area prone to lightning and i know vfds are prone to breakage during a power surge and CSV dont have that problem. What do you think?

[@MsUnknownLegend]

You are so awsome with your knowledge on this subject! You are a person of integrity and honest morals I have not seen many of in my life! Thank you so much for the knowledge you share in your videos!

[@LarryElterman]

Wow, thank you!

[@miketeall8605]

Like many others, I have sought a solution for frequent cycling during long water use events (sprinklers, showers, etc). The cycle stop valve looked interesting to me, but a very expensive experiment if it doesn't go well. The small pressure tank they push with it seems like it would work great for these long water use events. But as you pointed out, there will be increased pump cycles for the SHORT water use events (toilet flush, hand wash). This made me wonder why not pair it with a larger pressure tank. It seems you briefly cover that in your endeavors as well. However, I think you may be (possibly inadvertently) exaggerating the situation in that case. The amount of time it would take to refill a larger pressure tank WOULD indeed be proportional to tank size, (obviously not talking stated tank capacity, but usable capacity) BUT it would be STARTING FROM the pressure of the cycle stop valve setting and ENDING at the cut off pressure for the pressure switch. So if a cycle stop valve was set to 55, and pressure cut off was 60, how long would it REALLY take at 1 GPM to go from 55 to 60 in a 20 gallon pressure tank? A 40 gallon, etc. I somewhat like the idea of an arduino (substitute your favorite micro controller here) based solution with a solenoid valve, paired with a flow sensor. Hell, why not substitute the mechanical pressure switch with a pressure sending unit and a relay if going that route. My hesitation though is that I have REALLY hard water, and I would question the reliability of a more complex and potentially fragile system.

[@LarryElterman]

This was only the condensed version of my video. I suggest you watch two others, namely, 5 ways to duplicate or exceed CSV functionality and top 10 reasons NOT to buy a CSV valve. I think these two videos will answer all your questions.

[@MrSwampthug]

The csv works great. It fills my 2 gallons of drawdown at 1gpm.. so every cycle is 2 minutes long at least... It's awesome.

[@MrSwampthug]

And surprisingly the amp draw went way down too!

[@MarrymeStevenTyler]

Larry, I have been recommended a CSV because my pump is kicking on every 3 minutes when I run my sprinkler system. I am in a 17 year old home but recently replaced the water pressure tank (which was causing it to cycle all the time before). So, I am not really sure when this started or if it has always been this way. What other options do I have? This is only a seasonal problem for me, but with the size of my lawn, the sprinklers run 3.5 hours for a full cycle, so this is a big problem. Any advice is much appreciated.

[@LarryElterman]

i need more detail. To start with watch my video "5 ways to duplicate or exceed CSV functionality" I need a lot more info to help you. Describe your setup in detail. Do you have a well?

[@jonasstahl9826]

When your pump is cycling while running the sprinkler, your pump is to powerful, get a smaller pump. Since you probably want throw away an perfectly working pump. Install an override switch in parallel to the pressure switch as long the switch is active your pump is forced to be on as long the switch is activated, but dont forget to shut it of, it will burn out your pump if it runs without using water. Best way to prevent this would be to remove your normal spigot and install an solanoid valve. You press the switch the pump is forced on and the valve open to deliver water. Since the only way to shut of the water is to press the switch off you cant forget to turn your pump override off.

[@petefaulan2286]

Hi Larry, If I were to make a CSV-like functioning unit (as shown in the video between time 1:47 and 2:45 minutes) will my pressure reducing valve function? I was just thinking that water from pump will just go through the by pass. Thanks, Pete

[@LarryElterman]

Sorry, I guess i was not completely clear about the by pass and how it works. The by pass has to be set so that it only lets a little trickle of water though (1 gal per min, as is the case with a regular CSV valve) You have to adjust the bypass with the gate valve so that this little trickle of 1 Gal per min goes through the by pass. Once this gate valve is adjusted properly you should not have to adjust it again hopefully. When you are using a lot of water this by pass will not be significant, and the pump will continue to run. As long as you are using more than 1gpm the pressure tank will not fill up. After you stop using water the pressure tank will fill up at the rate of 1gpm just as it does for a normal CSV. I also show in one of my videos a way to make a better (but more expensive and complicated) CSV valve.

[@petefaulan2286]

@@LarryElterman Hi Larry, Yes , I have already considered your ideas when I watched your video about the more expensive diy CSV alternative. However, when you posted this latest video of yours, I think this one is cheaper and I think this will be effective. The only problem is the by pass part. But I think I have a solution in this problem.

[@petefaulan2286]

Is it ok with you, if I can give my suggestion?

[@LarryElterman]

Sure please give the suggestion. But the bypass is not a "problem" it is central to how a CSV valve works. Without the bypass the pressure tank will never fill up. But sure, give me your suggestion! I will tell you what I think. If you need to email me I can give you an email address to reach me at.

[@petefaulan2286]

@@LarryElterman Hi Larry, I was too busy sorry for the late reply. Anyways, if it’s ok with you giving me an e-add where I can write you, i will be very happy. Thanks in advance. Pete

[@ANDREWATX1994]

Hi Larry! Will this stop short cycling on my well pump? I’ve checked the pressure in the water tank and even replaced the pressure switch with no success🙁

[@LarryElterman]

Way insufficient information to answer your question.

[@nicksworth1]

I would never irrigate my property and run my home WITHOUT a cycle stop valve.

[@StudioRV8]

It's not really clear why the author of this video is so negative on CSVs. They are simple constant pressure valves. They have a place and purpose. I have a domestic 400ft artesian well used for domestic water and irrigation. My system is capable of around 25gpm. I have a relatively large 80gal tank with a CSV (I'm not a fan of small tanks, mostly for domestic use). On the evenings I irrigate, I pump around 3000 gal of water. My pump comes on ONCE for the entire irrigation cycle, and I can take a shower, flush toilets, wash the car, etc during that time. My irrigation zones also don't have to be balanced. I can have one zone consuming 10gpm and another 20gpm, and the pump comes on ONCE. If I didn't have a CSV valve my pump would probably cycle 40-50 times during the evenings I irrigate. If I wasn't irrigating, a CSV wouldn't provide much benefit, but even then, a CSV and a large tank will ALWAYS result in equal or less pump cycling. It's simple math. Reply

[@dorothybeeuwkes2795]

if you want the benefits of nearly constant pressure why not just put a pressure regulating valve on the exit if your pressure tank? Of course you will need to set your pressure cutoff switch to just above the desired pressure… Comments welcome.

[@LarryElterman]

Won't work. Example. You want 40 pounds of pressure so you set the exit to 40 pounds via simple pressure reducing valve and you set your switch cut off to 45 pounds as you suggest. That will limit the out flow to 40 pounds but will not stop the pump from filling the pressure tank which will soon reach 45 pounds and the pump will shut off. Now you are getting water from your pressure tank and the pump wont go back on until you hit the cut on of say 25 pounds. The pressure reducing valve on the exit only prevents more than 40, it does nothing if the input pressure is less than 40. Thus your pressure tank will be cycling between 25 and 45 pounds while your output will be fluctuating between 25 and 40 pounds.

[@dorothybeeuwkes2795]

Hi Larry, I think I messed up on my suggested settings of the pump switch. Let me try again; if the pressure reducing valve was set to say 45 lbs and the switch to cut in at 40 and cut out at 60… wouldn’t the exit pressure be mostly at 45 and then taper to 40 when the pump switches on? Keeping the pressure within a 5 lb range might economize water use and less stress on the DHW tank ?? Incidentally I learned from your exposé of the CSV!

[@LarryElterman]

Yes, it would keep the pressure mostly constant, but the pump would cycle on and off often during a long run of water usage. A cycle stop valve prevents this, which is one of the things they advertise. So just to be clear, this is what would happen. The pump would come on and stay on until the pressure in the tank reached 60 pounds, then the pump would shut off with a pressure of 60 pounds in the tank. Meanwhile, the water would be being used with an exit pressure of 45 pounds. The pressure tank would start to empty and when it went down to 40 pounds the pump would cycle on again. You are not preventing cycling. The valve is called a cycle STOP valve. :). You are correct that the exit pressure would vary between 40 and 45 pounds, which is not much of a variance, but with a cycle stop valve there is no variance, thus I find myself in the unusual position of defending the cycle stop valve ha ha ha. By the way I just realized, in your scenario there is no reason why you cant set the pressure tank switch to lets say 45/65 with a pressure reducing valve of 45. Thus you WOULD get constant pressure. Again, this would NOT prevent cycling. P.S. Stay tuned to my channel, I will shortly be publishing a video on a very easy and cheap way to duplicate a cycle stop valve.

[@anothersomebody8195]

@@LarryElterman I think the poster was suggesting that metering the outflow from the pressure tank to the drains, you would effectively reduce the amount of water out flowing without impacting the pumps recharge time. Yes the pump would have to recharge regardless, but if you reduce the water used, then you reduce the water demanded.

[@rogerg4916]

Is the CSV guy correct when he says that restricting flow will reduce the power consumption of the pump?

[@aaronduboise5277]

I have a cycle sensor on my booster pump for my RO unit and if your pinch the discharge line ( restricts flow and increases pressure) the amp draw does go down.

[@rogerg4916]

@@aaronduboise5277 What would happen to the amp draw if you totally restrict all flow but keep the pump on?

[@aaronduboise5277]

@@rogerg4916 amps will continue to drop because less work is being done. All it's doing if you close the intake or discharge is circulate the fluid already in the pump and it will overheat eventually

[@billgronwold6278]

VFD’s are very expensive! CSV valves work great, I hav had multiple in use for over 15 years. I am sorry, your information is very wrong.