Top Ten Reasons NOT to buy a Cycle Stop Valve (CSV)

[@colincostine9775]

Thanks for your videos! I was going to put a cycle stop valve in. But now I see the problems. I have 50 gallons of bladder tank capacity. 30 gal at the pump control and 15 in a remote building. I will simply reduce my range between cut in and cut out so that I have closer to constant pressure, without building high pressure during pump runs and without a start and stop for every small use. We use far too little water here for a cycle stop to work for us.

[@urbanturbine]

If you reduce your range between cut in and cut out, you will reduce the runtime of your pump so it will run more frequently at shorter runtime. Don't mess with it, keep it 40-60 and it will be fine.

[@cobblehillmartin1]

from someone who is not an engineer, but replacing/upgrading a well water system that just blew the bottom out of a pressure tank; Thank-you for your efforts here.

[@urbanturbine]

Just discovered this dumb CSV battle. it is so simple, if you use water a lot, for long periods of time (like irrigation, farming, gardening etc), CSV will be useful because it will just keep running the pump without cycling for long stretches of time. This will not hurt the pump actually it will be good for the pump. However, if you are a single family home with typical household use (sinks, toilets, washer, shower) then CSV system will end up cycling the pump a lot more than regular system with a large pressure tank because every time you turn on a faucet (for more than the drawdown amount of the little tank ~ 1 gal), the pump will turn on and then it will remain on until the faucet is shut and the pump continues to fill the tiny tank again at the "dribble rate". So, simply, it will actually be worse than having a medium or large pressure tank where the tank will supply water for the small uses and pump will only run to replenish the drawdown volume of the tank for a couple of minutes. Also, you can duplicate the same effect of CSV with a regular pressure regulating valve and a small bypass valve and actually experiment with it to match your exact needs. (ie try bigger tank with slightly higher dripple rate etc). Misinformation: backpressure hurts the pump. This is incorrect. Pump will ride its curve. It will run. But, you may enter into inefficient areas of the pump curve. VFD is pretty much inapplicable for deep well applications, because you can only reduce your speed so much. After a certain reduction, it will not able to produce the head pressure to get you 60 psi at the tank. This comes from affinity laws. Speed reduced by 1/2 means pressure reduces to 1/4th (squared) and energy consumption reduces to 1/8th (cubed). But as i said, reducing speed to 50% means you will now only produce 1/4th of the pressure you get at full speed, which will not be sufficient to pump up the water through the well and then fill a tank). There is some opportunity for speed reduction but it will never be worth enough to invest in a VFD. Also, remember, your motor will need to be inverter duty if you are going to run a VFD. Otherwise, motor windings will not last very long due to excess heat generated by the nature of VFD power, you will lose your pump. Mechanical engineer here licensed in 10 states and regularly design plumbing and hvac systems.

[@robhudson7862]

Video lost me when he claimed that a CSV is “expensive” and then recommends a multi-thousand dollar computer controller. Did he show the relative pricing? Sure, there’s plenty of FUD propaganda in the rest, but this statement is the most obvious. I’m still considering options, but this video was helpful to 1) confirm that VFD sellers will say anything to make the sale and 2) a CSV can serve the needs where a property has long, higher-volume draws (many sprinkler heads, farming…) and pressure-worthy pipe from the pump to the CSV. He would have been more convincing if he had shown where CSVs could be a good application and then where a VFD is optimum. Instead, he chose to preach that CSVs and CSVs seller are basically evil crooks and VFD sellers are honorable.

[@urbanturbine]

@@robhudson7862 I would never install either CSV or VFD. CSV is more like "cycle-more valve" for single family homes. VFD... No thanks. See my original comment. Just size your tank appropriately for a minimum 2 minute run or as per manufacturer requirements for the horsepower of the pump and you will be fine for years :) Pressure tanks comes with an installation manual where they usually have a table for proper tank sizing/selection based on your well capacity, pump gpm etc.

[@samualosten5212]

By changing either the CSV set point a bit higher or the pressure switch cutoff lower you can get the CSV 1gpm dribble rate top off the last 2gal left in a large tanks and take 2 minutes if you want. There are lots of people who prefer large tanks and CSVs that have a tank fill time of 2minutes. You know cycling your pump once for every demand doesn't hurt it and gets you higher pressure faster from the pump which is why the small tank is usually pushed. Either way the valve isn't a cycle more valve using a big tank or small one. It is a cycle once valve. If you use the same size tank as before and it will always be a cycle less than before valve. Why experiment with a PRV dribble rate valve when CSV has done that already. No need for higher gpm dribble to keep the motor cool and happy. Higher dribble rates are only needed for bigger motors to keep cool.

[@urbanturbine]

@@samualosten5212 with a 40 or 60 gallon tank, well pump will NOT run every time you flush a toilet. It will run perhaps every 10 flushes. But it will run everytime you flush a toilet if you install the CSV if it is installed the way it is advertised with a small tank. If you have a big tank and install CSV, "Cycle once" will only happen if you have long periods of water running, like irrigation etc. In that case, yes I agree that it will work well. However for ordinary household use, filling a pot, pitcher, flush a toilet, the second you draw down the little tank, the pump will kick on. It will cycle many more times than having no CSV with big tank with that kind of use. I do agree with you about playing with CSV to fine tune for large tank application. My point is, you can do that with CSV or you can do it with regular PRV. I am not saying CSV is total garbage, I am saying it depends....

[@TucsonDesign]

@urbanturbine I appreciate your fairness in calling out the proper applications for both situations, and have a question you might have the expertiese to answer: I just bought property with a well that was installed by the prior owner but never run (apart from testing) because he never developed the property. VFD 3hp pump 500' deep which I was told (but could not confirm) tested at ~15GPM. I'm wondering what size pressure tank to install because that hasn't been done yet. Demand: eventually 2 houses will be connected to this well, but only 1 to start. Eventually figure ~10 people, 2 horses, 4 dogs and perhaps a few smaller livestock like goats & chickens. No farming just backyard gardening plus maybe 1/2 acre max of sprinkler irrigation in arid climate. I'm also wondering if you think it was a mistake for the prior owner to install a VFD & 3-wire pump in this scenario. I hope not because it would be a waste of expensive equipment already there plus further expense to me if I had to replace the pump with 2 wire (unless a 3-wire pump can still be used somehow without a VFD?) Thanks in advance for any advice you may have.

[@poiqweee]

Certainly makes perfect sense. I have deep distain for marketing and false advertisement, and they persist far more than the lay person realizes.

[@renzomarquinaasto8390]

Hi, nice video. Is better to use a VFD System combined with a tank or not? What is the advantage or disadvantage ?and if you can tell how can i calculate the capacity of the tank in this case. I hope you can read this coment. Greetings.

[@tray8411]

I dont think youll get a comment...Havent purchased anything yet but still in research.. Many of the reviews ive read people swear by the CSV... Then I come across this and the guy seems angry... Sounds like its personal with this larry guy.... Anyway ill continue looking into both

[@urbanturbine]

i just replied to another comment about VFD. Hope it helps. Basically, VFD is not really applicable for small pumps due to limitations of pump speed variation, VFDs own effect on non-inverter duty motors. Not to mention the added complexity to the system at high initial cost.

[@mikecorson4480]

VFD's aren't that great of a system. They do not save power. While you may see your motor use less power you are also getting less output from the pump as it's spinning slower. Plus you have the extra power used to power the electronics to create the VFD system. Failing to understand this simple system and forgetting what's actually creating a VFD system shows how oblivious/gullible people are.

[@DieselMike]

Why the hate? All 10 reasons listed here are completely wrong. This video is "Disinfo" at it's finest. Cary Austin and the folks at CSV are about as honest and professional as they come. This country would be a better place with more Cary Austin's in it and less Internet trolls. He's built a successful business off a proven, quality product. While you are attempting to profit by trashing his fine work? Tells you all you need to know.

[@th7480]

My pump pumps water at the well head at 25 gallons per minute with no tank with a 240 hook up. And t fills my 35 gallon bladder tank in about 1.5 minutes. So my question is how does this thing work? There's no wires so it can't slow the pump down. My pump bypass pressure is 80 lbs so it can't be pumping through the bypass valve at the pump if the gauge says 50 lbs. And if I install one, and it's only supplying a demand of 1.5 gallons per minute, wouldn't that take about 15 minutes to fill my pressure tank back up? And if the pump is backing up through the 80 lbs pressure bypass, wouldn't that put an extreme amount of pressure on the motor? None of this makes sense.

[@cntrctr86]

What about using with larger pressure take w\ CSV- best of both mechanically?

[@urbanturbine]

No, it will take long time to fill the tank at the dribble rate of those cycle stop valves. That's the reason they use a small tank. Instead, you can use a regular PRV and a small bypass valve so you can adjust your tank fill time.

[@mikecorson4480]

I've only made it to #7 and your #7 and #8 reasons to not buy are exactly why you should buy a CSV. Every pump manufacturer will tell you that their pumps are designed to run 24/7 and you will get the best life out of pump the longer it runs because the starting and stopping action is what ruins a pump. Yes running a pump longer does use more power it's just not as much as you think and probably pennies a day at best. When a pump see's high pressure it actually reduces amp draw, so the pump isn't actually running at say the full 1/2hp, it's effective hp is now say 1/4hp which will draw less power. You should learn more about electric motors before making comments about them. Now a CSV isn't for every circumstance. They are designed for people who have irrigation systems or use a high amount of water with a much to small pressure tank.

[@hughchristian1976]

It would appear this gentleman does not totally understand why a cycle stop valve is extremely useful. The benefits are in the name itself, controlling a pump from kicking on and off while not allowing enough run time to cool the pump motor. If watering your lawn for an hour and the pump run continuously, that is preferable to cycling off and on every few minutes. Also uses less electricity.

[@AlbertoHernandez-vc2xy]

Hi is a check stop valve the same as cycle stop valve

[@LarryElterman]

No, they are very far apart. They are unrelated.

[@deh5860]

I agree with everything you said.

[@andytachibanalover9495]

#9- a system WITHOUT a CSV will also drop to 40lbs before the pump kicks is- Cmon Larry

[@maddiek9]

Where can I buy the VFD and the necessary pressure switch?

[@LarryElterman]

search for variable frequency drive water pump on amazon

[@hp7033]

I also considered a CSV many years ago because my well guy seems to love them. I did some research and came to similar conclusions. I posted some questions on a CSV forum and that's when I encountered the crazy loon who apparently 'invented' these things. His position is that VFD's are garbage, a conspiracy by pump manufacturers to sell more pumps, and engineers are worthless; only non-engineers are qualified to design pumping systems. If you post a comment refuting his points, you find that your comments are silently deleted. Then all of a sudden your username is banned from the site. Why would I want to do business with someone like that? Doing searches for well pump problems and you are guaranteed to find his posts all over the internet polluting the forums with his CSV advertising and VFD/Engineer bashing.

[@gregoryjura5912]

Thank you , I was sure csv were useless , my water had been on for 15 years and I have only had to replace , pressure regulators and acumulator tanks and the fittings that brake due to the slab having no pad , compaction , first water leak will wash away the dirt and there it goes , cracking and sloping away from well casing 🤭let's put a pad under the slab after it cracks B careful have fun!

[@LarryElterman]

Sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about.

[@jun101ph]

Been using for 5yrs now. Cycle stop valve is very useful. This is very BS

[@samualosten5212]

Taking CSVs points out of the original video context and calling them lies or misleading is just that... lying and misleading.

[@LarryElterman]

No it's not, it is totally not misleading. You are affiliated with the CSV company right? I have seen your name before. Go ahead, show me how I mislead. Give me some examples. Can't I bet. You mean like taking out of context how your video said that no matter how many taps you open up your pump will keep cycling. Like that? Good god, how could you possibly put that in your video. Such a blatant and obvious lie that is impossible to defend!

[@samualosten5212]

@@LarryElterman The CSV video/animation said the pump was a 25gpm model, and all the taps opened in the house only added up to 24gpm which would cause the pump to cycle. That's just one of the many things you say is a lie but don't use it with original context to make CSV look bad. I'm not here to argue the points as they are all covered very well on the CSV videos, but on your videos they are not. Everything is impossible to defend!

[@LarryElterman]

You guys are so weird. Always lying and doubling down on your idiocy. Why would the flow only be 24 gallons per minute if you opened all the taps? Because of the friction of the pipes? And if it has a rating of 25 gal, that means at zero back pressure unrestricted flow. As the pressure tank fills up there would be restriction and the pump would pump less. Ok, it’s true, if you had only two taps in the house, and each tap had a quarter inch pipe, and you had a 10 horse power pump, then yes, the pump would cycle. But in a normal house, with a normal number of taps and a normal pump the pump would NEVER cycle. This is what you guys do. You create bizarre scenarios to justify your lies. Good god man, live with it, your company makes money by scamming people. Face the truth! You are always doubling down telling me what a miserable and stupid person I am, thus I keep on creating more videos. Don’t you learn your lesson? I’m 90 percent sure Carry sent me a link with a virus in it. Thus I created my last two videos. Good work!

[@LarryElterman]

Oh, and let us entertain your stupid scenario again. In real life this is what would happen. The pump is producing 25 gpm but only 24 gpm is coming out of the taps according to you. Right? Thus the pressure tank would start to fill up. As the pressure tank started to fill up, the pressure in the system would go up, right? This would cause the pump to pump slower. At the same time the added pressure would cause the water to come out faster than 24 gpm. The system would quickly reach equilibrium with just a little bit of pressure in the pressure tank. The pump would never cycle. You don't know this? Cary is always saying I am an embarrassment to the engineering profession, and you don't even understand how this would work? Which is it? You are a terrible engineer? Or you are lying? Which is it Sam?

[@chuber4518]

@@LarryElterman Saw there Ad and starting thinking some of their sales pitch was B.S. So I looked to see if anyone had reviewed CVS. Larry you are 100% dead on with your You Tubes. CVS is basically Lying about there valve. NO one should buy it. I also have a Mechanicai Enginneerig background.

[@LarryElterman]

I wanted to add this exchange I had with the CSV people so they could not delete it, thus i copied and pasted the the exchange and posted it as my own comment so they could not delete it, here it is: samual osten Taking CSVs points out of the original video context and calling them lies or misleading is just that... lying and misleading. Larry Elterman No it's not, it is totally not misleading. You are affiliated with the CSV company right? I have seen your name before. Go ahead, show me how I mislead. Give me some examples. Can't I bet. You mean like taking out of context how your video said that no matter how many taps you open up your pump will keep cycling. Like that? Good god, how could you possibly put that in your video. Such a blatant and obvious lie that is impossible to defend! REPLY samual osten @Larry Elterman The CSV video/animation said the pump was a 25gpm model, and all the taps opened in the house only added up to 24gpm which would cause the pump to cycle. That's just one of the many things you say is a lie but don't use it with original context to make CSV look bad. I'm not here to argue the points as they are all covered very well on the CSV videos, but on your videos they are not. Everything is impossible to defend! REPLY Larry Elterman You guys are so weird. Always lying and doubling down on your idiocy. Why would the flow only be 24 gallons per minute if you opened all the taps? Because of the friction of the pipes? And if it has a rating of 25 gal, that means at zero back pressure unrestricted flow. As the pressure tank fills up there would be restriction and the pump would pump less. Ok, it’s true, if you had only two taps in the house, and each tap had a quarter inch pipe, and you had a 10 horse power pump, then yes, the pump would cycle. But in a normal house, with a normal number of taps and a normal pump the pump would NEVER cycle. This is what you guys do. You create bizarre scenarios to justify your lies. Good god man, live with it, your company makes money by scamming people. Face the truth! You are always doubling down telling me what a miserable and stupid person I am, thus I keep on creating more videos. Don’t you learn your lesson? I’m 90 percent sure Carry sent me a link with a virus in it. Thus I created my last two videos. Good work! Oh, and let us entertain your stupid scenario again. In real life this is what would happen. The pump is producing 25 gpm but only 24 gpm is coming out of the taps according to you. Right? Thus the pressure tank would start to fill up. As the pressure tank started to fill up, the pressure in the system would go up, right? This would cause the pump to pump slower. At the same time the added pressure would cause the water to come out faster than 24 gpm. The system would quickly reach equilibrium with just a little bit of pressure in the pressure tank. The pump would never cycle. You don't know this? Cary is always saying I am an embarrassment to the engineering profession, and you don't even understand how this would work? Which is it? You are a terrible engineer? Or you are lying? Which is it Sam?