TT Bike vs Road Bike in the Wind Tunnel | Cycling Weekly

[@zyghom]

honestly speaking I am shocked: from 300W to 220W - more than 25% just by changing the position, all at 40km/h

[@lechprotean]

in ideal wind tunnel conditions, with no crosswind etc, but yeah, a pretty extreme drop

[@jonathanzappala]

This is the kind of content that has been missing since Ollie left 👍

[@alsayers]

@Desmond Allin And she is not full of herself the way Ollie was and is.

[@germanlondono8700]

@Desmond Allin He went to GCN a few months ago

[@marthawidjaya4428]

He want to be top gear guy 😅😅😅😅😅😅

[@krbndlls]

One should also keep in mind that adopting TT position will take quite some time, and even then you won't be able to push as many watts as on a standard road bike positions.

[@ilanpi]

That's a myth. It is true that at first you lose power, but after months of practice, but you eventually can adapt. In particular, it uses different muscles, in particular, you have to learn how to pedal with your butt. Just take a look at the extreme position of time trial specialists and the watts they put out, which are the same as when they're climbing in more upright positions.

[@oliver-leung]

11:34 Price check on grey shirt.

[@1spongeygit]

haha! took a while but got it ha!

[@neilshannon9930]

#NoTag

[@weewei8897]

Go broke after buying a tt bike

[@Soordhin]

Interesting video. I was honestly surprised how much the clip on bars did already. Especially considering the difference between a well adjusted set of them versus a full time trial rig. That said, one can never have too many bikes....

[@antonpeterson1245]

You could get an aero bike with deep section wheels, clip on aerobars and a decent bike fit and you'll probably save yourself some money over just getting a tt bike.

[@antonpeterson1245]

@captain pugwash what was the price difference between your tt bike and your aero bike with clip on bars?

[@shaunhoulahan4080]

That was really interesting. I was expecting a much bigger difference when you changed to a TT bike. It seems like for an average person using clip on bars is all you’d need.

[@RuffRides]

What this fails to mention is that you dont ride in one gear, hence you cannot hold the position on the road bike with clip ons as you are constantly moving your arm out to change gear. I think this was the main reason I was much slower on a my road bike with tro bars compared to tt bike. If youve got di2 you can add on buttons on the end of the clip ons but for mechanical groups, the ability to shift whilst maintaining position is a big plus.

[@shaunhoulahan4080]

pruffy77 I don’t like the hunched over TT position anyway & the benefits for me at approx 30 kph are marginal. I don’t know if I’ll even bother with the clip on bars as I’d be off them frequently to ease the discomfort. The seconds to change gear won’t bother me I don’t think. I’ve had 2 TT bikes but I sold them. They were awful to ride for me.

[@RuffRides]

@@shaunhoulahan4080 yeah not everyone get on with them, it takes a bit of conditioning for sure

[@fatbloaterdave]

@@RuffRides Unless you have a road bike with Di2, and get some bar end shifters, Obvs your adding a bit more money there but maybe better than having two bikes still. I tried it out this year when my TT bike was in the shop and it worked well, and didn't take too long to get set up.

[@ltu42]

Seems like they used similar shallow wheels though. High profile wheel in the front and a disc at the back would have made a big difference.

[@danmartin9086]

Finally an honest video that is not commercially steered. Well done 👏

[@andrewmcalister3462]

Fascinating video! Great to see real data showing the differences small changes make!

[@richardmannion2779]

very well constructed and presented. My n=1 is that clip on bars on my road bike never felt as stable as my TT bike does; so there are other advantages, in addition to the small aero gains for me from using a TT bike. i always thought the instability was related to having the weight forward on a short wheelbase/short trail road bike (compared to the long trail on my TT bike), but it could very well be that i am just a bad bike handler.

[@georgealessi1191]

I felt the same way putting aero bars on my road bike. In addition to the unstable feeling, you reallly need to make many changes to a road bike setup, seat in particular to feel comfortable to ride in aero for extended periods of time. With a TT bike, you have a dedicated setup to continually work to improve your position in comfort. As they said 80-90% of drag is from your body. So working out the best position for speed and comfort is how you go the fastest.

[@Markhypnosis1]

I'm a bit late to this comment, but I don't find clip on aero bars on my road bike unstable at all. I did initially, but now it just feels great. Having said that, I've never ridden a TT bike so I've got nothing to compare it to.

[@Pratalax]

Been a while since i watched CW! Great vid, very glad to see a fresh face. Nicely done!

[@germanlondono8700]

Great content, great presenter, even greater takeaways. Thanks for the video. I would love to ride an actual TT bike, never done it before

[@thomasoei7089]

Great video! Oddly, my take away from this is that in order to reduce the drag force, I should just slow down. At my age, with my lack of flexibility to get into a tucked aero position, that is certainly a viable option.

[@FrekeOne]

You are right, as You slow down the drag force is minimized.

[@nickowen9788]

Great video. I have been time trialing on my road bike this year, and getting some wins and good times. saving up for a TT bike for next year, looking forward to seeing the improvements :)

[@nemeanf27]

I moved from road bike with clip bars and boxset wheels to full rig TT this year including skin suit, rear disc wheel, overshoes, TT helmet and with just a few TT's remaining this season i'm on the verge of winning our local TT series, clip on bars won't make you a winner alone (if that's what you want to achieve though)

[@evangudmestad]

Great video and valuable take away! I'm your typical age group triathlete that doesn't avg 25mph+, so a road bike with bars and a good configuration should suffice for me.

[@trick700]

Well presented vlog, well done 👍 I think it’s worth noting from this that you can start time trialling on a road bike by learning to be more aero and holding that position for the duration (you don’t need a TT bike to have some fun and get some PB’s!)

[@swites]

I really need to work on my flexibility so can get in more aero position without losing too much power. The difference between 300Watts and 215 for the same speed is incredible!

[@bradyoungblood8577]

Great video A lot of insight for those of us who will never get access to a wind tunnel

[@chevlim]

Finally! The comparison i have always wanted to see

[@joeotoole484]

Great video, very interesting, definitely going to ride more aero.

[@BrianMcNay]

I like the way she rides 👌🏼

[@delkim3691]

I did my own testing in real world during intervals several times this year. After 2 intervals at same wattage and exactly same route I changed my road bike with clip on bars and tune position to my TT bike (had it with me in the car) and did third interval. At wattage around 350 W I was shocked it was ONLY 0.6 - 0.8 km/h difference... Avg speed around 42-43 km/h.

[@eduardgercog4422]

Only tells you your TT setup kinda sucks :)

[@FishForged]

Eduard Gercog ayyyyyyyyyyy madlad

[@delkim3691]

@@eduardgercog4422 Do not think, 4th place in national TT :)

[@andrewc0128]

@@delkim3691 Could have been first instead of 4th ;)

[@eduardgercog4422]

@@andrewc0128 Exactly :)

[@paweszaduro7946]

This lady did very good job 💪 Thanks a lot 👍

[@matejburian3191]

The TT bike has usually a rear disc wheel though

[@hellopsp180]

love the video. Wish you can do a "Cheap bike challenge that can almost beat a TT bike"

[@enki42ea]

Would be interesting to compare the higher position of an endurance bike vs the lower position of a race bike. How much savings does lowering your stack give?

[@denbatt]

So now I have to tell my wife I need a TT bike?

[@TheCucung]

You know, asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission

[@davehause8571]

Watch the video again. You need to ask for aerobars.

[@joejoe8948]

I'm adding clip on bars on my 2019 Madone SLR!

[@stanleyong1698]

Me too

[@dcasandman]

3 watts at 25mph is not bad. I’ve only averaged over 25mph once for half ironman and most the time around 23-24mph. Really hard to hit 30 mph for any extended period other than down hill. There are some current aero bar set ups you could maybe slap on a road bike that would optimize it even more.

[@saxy1player]

Interesting insight into how the process of optimization in the wind tunnel goes. A problem might be when it comes to sustaining that same power output in the aero position. That is a fair bit harder for most riders so while you *are* getting an aero benefit you are also "losing" some power.

[@JonathanLee7]

Fantastic work! This is great content 👏👏👏👏

[@mlegrand]

Love videos like this! Collecting all the aero gains but looking realistically at the best investment for your money. I need to be careful on my own triathlon KZbin channel about my recommendations. I tend to gravitate towards TT bikes. Thanks so much for making this video! Fantastic content, cinematography and wonderful edit. 👌

[@allthingsTechrelated]

It took about 100 years to make this video, well done.

[@adam300tdi90]

2:12 the date of the windtunnel test was 17th June 2019

[@allthingsTechrelated]

adam300tdi90 that’s why it took so long

[@Advcrazy]

Love it!! Soooo how much does it cost to go to a wind tunnel in the UK and get optimized on one bike?

[@PoetWithPace]

Fascinating watch, thank you! As I’m new to cycling I would give wind tunnel a go! Is that a price tag on back of your shirt in final clip? 🙀

[@WylieCoyote45]

1989 Tour De France, Greg LeMond.

[@eurobubble7068]

not surprised that the clip on wasnt much slower than the tt, as the geometry on the road bike was very relaxed/more like a tt machine already.

[@robster6868]

Good vid,problem with clip ons and hilly tt’s my knees keep hitting the pads riding out of the saddle😡

[@jk0000079]

Don't agree with the "its fine if you just do 50-70 Watts during the wind tunnel test". I cannot quantify that, of course, since I do not own a wind tunnel to do the test, but with that low power, in comparison to what you would do, in a 1 hour max effort, a lot more of your body weight is on the saddle, rather than on the pedals. Which, I'd bet, changes the shape of your legs to an extent, which is quite likely significant for the result of the test. I do not tune aero positions, I tune databases. But the same principle applies - if you do not tune a realistic, representative usecase, you're likely to achieve only a suboptimal result for the actual "real world" usecase.

[@BaxterRoss]

Thinking about the same thing.

[@rob-c.]

But if the leg position is the same for all the tests then they can find the difference the upper body makes - which is essentially what they are testing here. The leg will extend the bend through the pedal stroke based on your saddle height and crank length - this won’t change with power.

[@thecyclingmaker]

The position doesn't change appreciably, the tests are valid. Whether you can sustain an "ideal" position gained from testing is another matter.

[@jannekoskinen2050]

@@thecyclingmaker Yep, pointless to test the most aero position, if you can't put out power in it.

[@HydeMyJekyll]

Lol just the weight of my legs produces about 70 watts. Unfortunately I found this out during the last hour of a 10 hour ride last weekend when I suffered from extreme dehydration and heat exhaustion after so long in 100% humidity and 95+ degree temps.

[@xGshikamaru]

Well, the conclusion is just right but the numbers are apples and oranges with the road bike. Seeing how much your hips are rocking from side to side on the first positions it makes it very inefficient especially if the power applied was just 70W. So with a proper bike fit you could get interesting aero gains as well as power efficiency gains in every positions. Of course even with the most adjustable bike and aerobars you would still need to tweak a few things to maximize aerodynamics, as well as comfort. Conclusion : a bike fit is the best investment you could make for your bike.

[@geoffreyanderson4719]

can u do a test of fine tunins like helmet, shoes, wheelset, tire pressure size and type and chainline, and proper skinsuit? all together

[@ProfessorSteez]

Cycling weekly video idea: Do a new track style aero test like you did 2 years ago! I think it’d be interesting to see the watts required to do 40 or 45 kph on “Brand A” aero bike vs. all around bike. Maybe Specialized Tarmac vs. Venge, Madone vs. Emonda, SystemSix vs new SuperSix, TCR vs Propel, BMC TM01 vs SLR01? You get the gist. Test the classic frames vs aero frames!

[@The1trueDave]

Interesting to see the power figures for 40kph but it's a shame they didn't show the numbers for 50kph. I want to know what my paltry 260w will get me! Actually I was just starting to feel encouraged by what you could achieve with 220w when I realised of course that I am not as aerodynamic as Michelle by a long shot, so I would obviously need a fair bit more. I might just slip under the hour maybe. Only one way to find out!

[@Marcus538]

Wattages are wrong human body works on torque, no one understands torque I was a short track skater , the loads we had on our legs, compared to cycling were immense , like rodrichs ski jumping past All about torque

[@The1trueDave]

@@Marcus538 power is defined as torque times speed though. Straining on the pedals I can exert comparable torque to a motorcycle - the fact that the motorbike does it at 6000rpm to my 60 is what gives it its massive power advantage!

[@Marcus538]

@@The1trueDave torque in the body works on point loads , every equation relating to mechanics in your body , either equals zero , or infinity , no bidy understands torque ,certainly not cyclists ,leonardo devinci understood it enough ,to realise torque is spiritual in appearence I knew , i cluldnt understand it ,i was a short track skater , rhe torque we produced ,dwarfs cyclists, even top ones , i workedout loads ,at least 2500kg on one leg ,on a skate , before trips hits etc. And we aren't sat down , even top cyclists dont look in good shape The only way to train body for torque ,is slowly ,using acoutics, and knowing exactly what you are doing ,i do it ,or I'd be dead no other sports stars know,nor any trainer or coach, you can tell , Cycle slowly ,no momentum , for a year or two ,you might twig

[@cyclonutterd7075]

Great video, really interesting stuff, thanks

[@ez8308]

just curious if it would be more aero with the hands lower vs so high? Does the hands being higher create more of a wind break going to the upper body?

[@ozan3076]

I like the boardman TTE signature but expensive :(

[@melissaflick9041]

Since the difference was only 3 watts (or 3%?) @30K, I should have liked to hear the difference in watts between the road bike with aero bars and good position & the TT bike at 50K.

[@amfearliathmor8213]

3T Tiramisu bars for £10. Replacement Titanium bolts for £5. Yes I know the Ti bolts are an extravagance.

[@MrHuddy]

Please sort the ads on your website out, they are full of viruses on mobile. I can't even read the article

[@esakhwaja8592]

What were the specs of the Zipp vuka aluminum clip on bars (such as the stack height and rise)? I am looking into purchasing those.

[@jason200912]

Did Ollie move to gcn? Usually gcn always messes up their data collection and misses a variable entirely or gives an unfair advantage by mistake to one of the tests

[@ytpadyt]

How should the weight of rider be distributed between the wheels, on TT-bike, on flat? 40:60 ? But too much on front wheel cause worse rolling resistance of that wheel. Thanx

[@Richard_Ashton]

There seems to be an assumption that the wind only hits head on while cycling upright. How does this approximate real world cycling?

[@focirs7484]

Richard Ashton seams to me wind tunnels are only good for velodromes. 🤷‍♂️

[@shuttles69]

TT bike takes time to see gainz as you use different muscles (same muscles but different amounts /anglez)! good thing is once you cook your glutes you can recover on the RB and get even faster!!!😮

[@zacboss467]

I'm not convinced about the design of their wind tunnel. It doesnt seem like they could achieve uniform air movement(laminar flow) given the airflow separation as it comes into the larger room. This may cause some turbulence that may affect their tests. Any aero engineers feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[@allyw7405]

zacboss467 yes, you are wrong 😎

[@zacboss467]

@@allyw7405 how am I wrong. Not saying I'm not, would just like to know

[@MrAgglo]

Excellent content, thanks!

[@phxrsx]

I'm surprised that the shape of the TT bike itself wasn't that much faster.

[@StuntpilootStef]

Frames are one of the least beneficial factors in aerodynamics. On order of most to least importance it's position - clothing & helmet - wheels - frame. Also, the normal road bike frame was already pretty good.

[@HIIHTONIILO1]

Yes I can ride with bars 38km/h 10K TT on normal road, but I can not make same without thebar with ordinary road bike.I think for hills you can keep better the bars and make more power with yours arms. TT bike, I think I do not maybe purchase because i am 57years old, but maybe because my friend bought now the old one........; )

[@Flix-f6q]

How much faster is a recumbent bike? Why is everyone so fixed on diamond shape frames? I really have to try out a recumbent to find out how they ride. The idea of riding 50kph with 200 watts is fascinating.

[@andrewc0128]

Someone posted this video on a triathlon website I was a member of, but when I went back to that website to see the discussion from those who have a respectable opinion of it on that site this morning the thread was gone. I wonder why it was removed. Anyone have an idea why it was removed? 0.o

[@SteveHofsaess]

Would it make sense to add aero bars to my climbing bike which I use most of the time (specialized tarmac) . Most rides are not normally perfectly flat and have hills which can vary from 3% to 10%

[@cyclingweekly]

In case you go above 10MPH aero bars would save you some watts.

[@SteveHofsaess]

Cycling Weekly do I have to change seat positions each time I use the bars?

[@johndrysdale5397]

I am quite surprised that the TT bike was not faster still, but then the road bike was an aero frame, so it makes sense.

[@tehArcher]

It looks like the testing protocol had a yaw angle sweep too? Interesting comment that the biggest part of the aero drag is the rider, I guess this won't scale for all riders, smaller riders would benefit more than larger riders for spending $$ on a TT Bike?

[@MichelleArthursBrennan]

In this case, appears to be the opposite - taller riders might benefit more from purchasing a TT bike as they may not achieve the same position on the road bike - some explantation here: www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/bike-fit/watch-much-faster-time-trial-bike-really-434360

[@seanforkner]

Are they vuka evo 110 bars?

[@davidg5683]

Awesome bike! I love it

[@zeekryder7735]

Is there a tt bike that handles as well as a road bike?

[@ap5194]

This is why everyone beat me on the bike leg of the triathlon I did lately. Nothing to do with fitness

[@chilrad]

How about one last run with a stupidly expensive aero-optimized TT frame and/or a deep profile wheel-set?!

[@scottw6598]

Excellent video

[@pauldarling330]

Greg Lemond did this test in 1989 with the same results.

[@MZ-bm5fp]

now I'm not that impressed anymore by the KOM's on the flat segments in my area... kind of cheating?

[@Paddyhudson]

MZ Pointless to challenge KOMs on the flats without a TT bike, pointless to challenge the climb KOMs without a dedicated hill climb bike. 😫

[@allthingsTechrelated]

MZ there nothing like a massive tail wind if you want a flat section KOM.

[@MZ-bm5fp]

@@allthingsTechrelated tell that the guy that rode 54kmh for 7 km

[@Paganizondaf650]

Flat koms in my area are all swamped during amateur races or fast club rides. And even the less steep climb koms are taken by club ride guys that rush up there with a sprint train. And the steep climbs have loads of e-mtb guys in the top 20s but luckily the motors don’t match roadie thighs

[@KetzalSterling]

Just a note. Look into the lens when presenting. Not to the screen or camera operator. Great video.

[@manitoublack]

Did you have a cold?

[@JogBird]

How come gcn cant find any female presenters?

[@huwsparky175303]

Emma Pooley...

[@fadenseiden]

@@huwsparky175303 long gone

[@DrJRMCFC]

They had emma pooley but thankfully she’s left to go back to Switzerland. Chris and Henk might be male but they are far better presenters imho.

[@DrJRMCFC]

Jafar - so wrong

[@robbchastain3036]

Emma is doing science, I hear, and they do have Katherine, best known for her gravel presentations.

[@alleywatson]

No results with a disc ?

[@PersonaN007Grata]

How many watts do I save if I lose my love handles?

[@byejason]

None on the flat

[@rob-c.]

Jason Bye smaller frontal area is a saving of watts

[@andrewc0128]

All of 'em? thats all I got

[@rob-c.]

Andrew C all of them?? Maximum of 2, surely 🙂

[@megaspongebob6]

Wish the TT bike would have included rear disc wheel!

[@bedolschnutzler2604]

No because this would have adulterated the results since u can mount it on ur aero road bike too. To see the actual difference of the rig itself u have to stick to the wheels when comparing. To see the benefits of aero wheels vs normal ones there are enough other videos here

[@drasztikus]

Now how many watts she would save stop bumping on the bike and wasting so much energy?

[@wasbigman123456]

Ride a recumbent bike if you want to be faster !

[@tristangeake4232]

£120 clip on bars! You can buy them for 10

[@11robotics]

Take note: the difference between the road bike with clip-on bars and the proper time-trial bike was of 3W at 40 km/h. Same rider, pretty much the same position, quite similar non-aero wheels, but with a different frameset and a proper pair of TT bars. Look at this figure over and over again until you stop believing the bullshit that whatever state of the art "aero" bike saves you 30W over the previous one at those speeds. Or, to put things in a different perspective, the difference between the baseline and riding in the drops would save her 80 seconds over a 40 km, 1 hour TT, while Specialized have claimed some time ago that the time gain you'd get from riding their latest aero bike over a steel bike from the 80s with identical wheels would be of 50 seconds. 80 seconds and 18W saved by switching your position between hoods and drops, 50 seconds and probably around 10W by switching from a good ol' steel bike to a state of the art Specialized aero bike with identical wheels. Bottom line(s): your position on the bike has a far greater impact on your aerodynamics than switching from one frameset (or even bike) to another, while all the marketing BS claiming 30+W power saves from one aero bike generation to the other is preposterous.

[@andrewc0128]

Exactly braddah. Marginal gains are fine, and for the top 10% of athletes they gotta pinch watts wherever they can. For us mere mortals, slapping aerobars on a roadbike, getting a good set of wheels and a good helmet and keep the saved $3-$5K in our pockets.

[@mmfong297]

3 watts savings on a TT? This explains why triathletes should just ride road bikes w/clip on bars

[@colaoliver1587]

I don't think time trials are raced in wind tunnels. They are race outside where air & wind move in all sorts of directions not straight on. All you are testing here is which items performs best in the singular conditions of a wind tunnel. Can these result translate to the real world? Maybe. Why not do the same tests in actual race conditions.

[@johnpontes812]

Hands on the brake hoods elbows 90 degs

[@geoffreyanderson4719]

tt wheelsset is the big gain over her road bike probably

[@davehause8571]

The take away is "rider position is more important than the bike." Surprised the bike industry hasn't flagged this video to be taken down since it's complete opposite of the bullshit they're pushing.

[@robertkarlsson3007]

The fastest position isn't uci legal. More than 10 cm between pads and end of handle in height. This should have been adressed!

[@RevoltingRudi]

still intersting for ironman athletes. afaik ironman don´t care about uci rules that much.

[@jesseheath7718]

The recumbent cycle out performs any of the dimond frame combinations regarding aerodynamics and wind resistance. A dimond frame bike trying to be perfectly aerodynamic is akin to a recumbent cycle attempting to be a technical off-road bike! Still 80 year UCI rules still completely govern the sport of cycling .

[@Bluesman2509]

Very few amateurs can do a 50 minute TT...that's some serious FTP!

[@simonrano8072]

everybody is able to do a 50 minutes TT... they will not cover the same distance :p

[@GermanGameAdviser]

that kit tho👀

[@joshbaxeleven]

Interesting content but guys you need a tripod, more than one camera, better mics and a more interested presenter... This looks like nothing has changed from 2015 KZbin.

[@johntrussell7228]

Specialized has been presenting the same information for years since they built the Windtunnel at the HQ. This is not new info.

[@mintheman7]

They should've switched to an aero helmet on the TT bike, with the rider being 90% of the drag and all...

[@shawnsee2688]

She's so small. What about riders like me, 6 foot 3, 250 pounds, wide as hell. How would the same tests affect me....

[@joerenner8334]

Too bad I can't use them in a fondo.

[@xtra9996]

I once heard that a beer belly might have some aerodynamic advantages. What about ... boobies? I mean, seriously and for the sake of scientific curiosity, it might lower the drag resistance as well.

[@utubegunny]

amazing - crouch down, tuck your elbows in and bingo, less air resistance, well done Sherlocks, who'd have thought it !

[@joelfr023]

Clip on bars ... when it’s time to shift gears :(

[@yannickokpara4861]

So when will we see her in the infamous hoods tucked position? No photo evidence of it only talking. So it's really a guessing game for the audience in terms of how they compare and really that's what it's about for us... using outside information for our own application.

[@parthmache4733]

good presenter

[@leotard2536]

I'm not buying a TT bike unless I get paid to ride it.