How much speed can you buy?

[@kiralymate3d]

I would test the BH bike again, with a higher tier tyre and tube, for example: GP5000 + latex inner tube, because at this point, that gatorskin might be the biggest 'issue' on the older bike.

[@5speed735i]

I agree, Gatorskins are s l o w tires.

[@chrisquast5491]

Exactly, I vote they re-test with upgraded tires and then test again with aero wheels

[@mitchlabrador]

I agree 💯. I would also like to see the difference with deep wheels

[@charleschua2337]

Yeah test it again with gp 5000 tyres and deep carbon wheels.

[@chuckyfox9284]

You'd need around 340 watts to go the speed of the Scott on the BH. About 20 of those watts will be down to rolling resistance of the trash tires on the BH, maybe another 3 to the not as well maintained drive train, the rest is going to be aerodynamics. I edited this comment, because my original comment didn't take account of how much more aerresistance you face when going slightly faster at those speeds.

[@SyLens1]

Biggest difference is the tires and wheels. I think it can be way closer for another 500-600$ and get some good tires and some used aero wheels

[@stanlam7023]

I agree

[@Nick-ei6em]

Yeah just good tyres would get you most of the way there 😊

[@JwallzMTB]

my gravel bikes got 60mm wheels with nice tires and its just as fast as my "race" bike

[@NorCalCycling]

i wanted to keep this one truly entry level (no upgrades) but the next one might be something like "which upgrades are best bang for your buck" and I'm guessing tires would be close to the top

[@louism7161]

The move from the tires from the LBS to GP5000’s was like night and day. Later on, switching to some 500g lighter deep section carbon wheels and it’s like a totally different bike.

[@collinheath3290]

Anyone else impressed by just the ability to put down almost exactly the same power through both tests?? Nicely done

[@chbrosz]

it's easier when you set it up as a fresh lap, with average lap power on the head unit alongside 3s power. Then you can lift or lower the average lap power as you need to hit your target.

[@collinheath3290]

for sure. just still cool@@chbrosz

[@NorCalCycling]

after years of structured training i know EXACTLY what 300 watts feel like 🤙

[@collinheath3290]

Haha I guess so!@@NorCalCycling

[@apair4002]

Just use power meter dude.

[@MrFreeGman]

I'm a steel frame guy myself, but this test misses something very significant, which is that speed gains will be compounding the longer you're riding. As your energy depletes throughout a race, the minor differences become more pronounced. So while you may get a 4% gain for a 20 minute ride, that might turn into a 10% gain for a two hour ride.

[@91mph]

Yep, this is a great point, even if the relative performance gain itself doesn't increase more with time.The times are for 2x4.5 mi = 14.484 km total. So a 56 sec difference is a 3.866 sec/km avg gain. That "per km" denominator means part of one's perceived value of a superbike is in the distances they're doing; that differential grows with course length. Then add in any factors arising from greater efficiency. Of course, other factors matter, as well. Two guys both at 300 W and yet Mitch was consistently faster? I think that shows the effects of things like small variations in equipment, body shape/aero profile, weight, etc. So the vid's takeaway is a good one, that the adage(s) "the best bike is the one you already own" (and "ride up grades, don't buy upgrades") rings true yet again. Get the super bike if you're going long a lot, or if you're racing and want to maximize performance *right now* (that is, when everything else about oneself like body shape and equipment is the same). And of course, there's a spectrum of price-to-performance (tempered by diminishing returns to scale), as said.

[@ugghhhyoutubeisawful646]

exactly my thought...when the power curve diminishes dramatically in the last 20-30km of a 160k full out every climb/sprint at every road sign group ride

[@asdasd01]

Not to mention that this was on flat. The difference will be more significant on the climbs..

[@jamescho3718]

Elves Falath Pro could be an interesting choice for the next test, but with their rim brake version frameset with deep carbon wheels. That would require a used SRAM wireless Force or Red rim brake grouppo, which could be a fun comparison.

[@michaelmechex]

Absolutely, I love my Falath Pro! I'd like to see how it compares, but I'm guessing it's not too far off. He's more likely to test the Evo, because it's a newer model, but I think the Pro is no worse, if not better

[@empyreanw0w0w]

I understand there has to be a price difference, but if you're talking purely bike comparison, you need to setup both bikes with same tires/innertubes. This will give a much more interesting view of data, because the only difference (for the most part) is going to be the aero dynamic advantages of the bikes.

[@VolodyaSenkiv]

You're quite right, I'm of the same opinion

[@parmijo]

Gatorskins are too slow. It would be more interesting if you put equal tires or similar tires (GP5000) on the BH.

[@NorCalCycling]

i wanted to keep this one truly entry level (no upgrades) but the next one might be something like "which upgrades are best bang for your buck" and I'm guessing tires would be close to the top

[@ConsciousBreaks]

@@NorCalCycling Yeah, but at ~$80/pair, I'd argue that Gatorskins *are* upgrades. Something half the price, e.g. Ultrasports, would probably shave several seconds.

[@kasparsbutlers]

I can comment on a old vs new Chinese bike debate. I was riding 2010 SCOTT Speedster with 105 and 2011 BMW M Carbon Racer (very rare bike, but still a oldschool type of carbon tube frame) with 6800 Ultegra spec. This summer I switched to Elves Falath Pro with an R8000 Di2 groupset and for the same power I go about 2-3 km/h faster on averages riding my usual 60-70 km routes. The difference was astonishing. It was really surprising. All of my Strava segments pretty much instantly got PR'd. Oh and all of my three bikes had the same wheelset (rim brake 60mm deep carbon fiber wheels). That sounds like a great idea for a test, you should do it.

[@ChrisSharp_kr1spy]

I think discussion on bike fitting is really important because everything 'rides' on your comfort and ease of motion whatever style riding you set out to do. So there may be people out there who want to maybe pick up a nice used bike online, but have no idea how to get fitted, why it's even important, or even know about bike fitting in the first place.

[@adamweb]

Next video idea: BH with GP5000's vs. the Foil with Schwalbe Marathon Plus 😂

[@NorCalCycling]

🤪

[@marcj8464]

Did you mention what the power meter on the BH was? It's bot the 4iiii on the Scott. 4-5% difference is not that far off from the accuracy you'd expect from comparing two different power meter models, especially the newer Shimano crank-based PMs that are notoriously inaccurate.

[@xuchenglin6256]

The tests is so nicely done, this is a textbook video of how these kind of tests should be done. GCN used to do a lot of these power-controlled field test, which I believe is of great value and that's where their initial "reputation" comes from. Unfortunately for the obvious reason, fast-forward to 2023, they don't even to do these anymore like they now don't have a power meter anymore. Now the same tests were done with a description of "all-out", "flat-timetrial", "comfortably", "feel" without mentioning or controlling any power numbers. I mention this because it reminds me of "the-good-old-days". I read the comment sections and I can see as others have already mentioned, the tyre should be matched because that's not an "upgrade", that's consummerables that eventually gets changed at the same frequency no matter it's a $10000 super bike or cheap bike. When the initial stock tyre runs out after 10000 km, they both face the same question of "which tyre should I go". And there's no rule book or "maintenance bulletins" says you can only fit $150 tyres on $10000 bike and $30 tyre on a $1000 bike or you are in danger. The chances are if they are both well-informed (rolling resistance knowledge), the $10000 guy and $1000 guy will get the same $150 or something tyre, after the initial 10000 km. So the sanity of matching tyre is like "$10000 bike vs $1000 bike after 10000 kms". It's legit, practical and inline with anyone actually rides his/her bike, long-term. I know it's me trying to change another man's mind but I think my point is fair and worth a thought. Keep doing what you are doing, I love these tests!!!

[@Alan_Hans__]

I'd like to see the BH get a couple of upgrades. Firstly some nice low rolling resistance tyres and then some 50mm or so deep rims. Personally I'd be surprised if just the tyres didn't drop about 20s at a cost of under about $200.

[@pz7673]

We would love to see the same test but with same tires. You don't need to spend $10,000 to benefit from Conti 5000s, you can put them on a $500 bike too. GCN does the same thing when comparing cheap vs expensive bikes, new vs old, the tire difference is an automatic handicap for the lower end spec, makes the new tech look like a bigger improvement than it actually is.

[@NorCalCycling]

this was meant to be truly entry level vs high end but the next test might be entry level with some basic upgrades like tires. can we close that gap with minimal $$??

[@deepazure]

So a 400 dollar bike to a 10.000 dollar bike.. that's 2400% more expensive, and a 4.3% difference. People are getting absolutely robbed out there.

[@fender1000100]

Yeah but you don't get it. 4.3% is the difference between becoming a legend like Eddy Merckx. Or being a forgotten nobody. If you are a regular Joe. Sure no need to spend thousands on a road bike. But if you're a competition rider. Every second. Even fraction of a second MATTERS.

[@georgehagstrom4022]

Agree with all the wheel + tire comments (and maybe narrower handlebars). I think part of the benefit of videos of this type is that even if you don't have much to spend, you can get speed if you spend it wisely. Tires alone could be 20+ Watts and a good enough set of wheels could be had on the cheap. I think that is way more interesting than comparing different frames or stock builds. Either way very fun video!

[@NorCalCycling]

totally agree, might make some 'cheap' upgrades to the bh to see if we can close that gap in the next vid

[@sebreens]

@@NorCalCycling that would be great! got an old school ALU road bike with gp 5000 on and it does feel pretty fast. Then again I am refraining from getting on a new aero bike to save my wallet from the implosion :D

[@thomasullmann7447]

I built a nice falath evo with full mechanical red/force mixed groupset. I also built up my own custom 50mm deep carbon wheel set. The rims were 445g a piece from a seller on Aliexpress ( communication was excellent). This is also including a P505 spider power meter, the bike came in at 7.6kg (without pedals) and I managed to keep the price bellow 3000 euros. I recommend something similar. My only issue is the top tube is quite fat and my knees brush it sometimes. I've never ridden anything similar to this before, I've been riding titanium frames prior but holding 400w gets me above 40km/h on the flats. I'm finding it harder to gauge wind direction I think because of the improved aerodynamics. I like to tinker on my bikes so saving weight by foregoing the electronic groupset and hydraulic brakes made sense to me. I'm running the F1 juintec brakes and they feel close to the hydraulic rivals I had on another bike but with 280g sram red leavers that are going cheap these days because of people leaving rim brakes. To be clear, I'm into long distance endurance riding, or at least was when I had time. I'm doing a lot more day riding now in my local area which is what i built the bike for, rather tan crits and alike.

[@MxCraven]

That BH would be a really great bike in a hillier area. For crits and flat stuff, sure it's gonna be slower (although UK crits often are so tight that shallower wheels are better for the acceleration).

[@coderedddmusicboxxx]

Seka RDC would be a nice one to test. It looks like it can go toe-to-toe with Factor's VAM Ostro or Spez SL7/8s

[@DanielDLParr]

The Seka is a Factor, no? 👀👀👀👀👀

[@invictus3663]

The cervelo p5x tt is 7 years old yet still looking so modern and still comparable with current bikes. Its a total dream to own one of those.

[@liamkaloy]

If you do this type of tests next time please use decent race tires on both bikes. Most likely Gator was responsible for at least 50% of the 4.3% difference.

[@mitchellsteindler]

You're talking 10 watts per tire. It's nearly all the difference.

[@liamkaloy]

@@mitchellsteindler Exactly it this exact ~10 min long test with same rider power what matter the most is by far the rider position (how aero he is) then ... tires, then ...... wheels, then ............. pretty much everthing else, so marginal gains that will be hard to measure during 10 minute long test

[@NorCalCycling]

i wanted to keep this one truly entry level (no upgrades) but the next one might be something like "which upgrades are best bang for your buck" and I'm guessing tires would be close to the top

[@EricRidesDirt]

The difference between these bikes is probably overshadowed by the Gaterskin tire. That tire is probably costing you 15 watts on its own.

[@andrewdeck7945]

Thanks for the video! Would love a video comparing BH with better rubber (that should make up most of that 4% difference), vs winspace, vs scott foil. Thanks for the videos!

[@OneDougUnderPar]

A few ideas come to mind: 1. Talking about what made Mitch faster despite watts being the same - looks like his arms were better, but is that all it takes to save 10s? His legs look as thick as Jeff's waist, so is he heavier too? Looking at the different spine flexions, I'd like to overlay the golden ratio over them, maybe that's the ideal! 2. A cool follow up would be "how important is aero in a draft?", since staying in the draft is the single most important part of racing (maybe?), and how important is aero in a sprint over 10s, 60s, etc.? 3. Talking about non-aero gains. Weight is the obvious one, followed by rolling resistance, clean/lubed drivetrain; but are there more? How important are they, what's their effort/cost value? The most aero position might not be one's most powerful, which would follow up well with question 2, asking how important is comfort? I'd also vote for reaching out to Elves, even though RCA is doing a decent job with that brand already, I'm just a sucker for their branding. And since I'm talking about ideas, I'd love to see an absurd crossover with Path Less Pedaled; he takes you fly fishing and philosophizing on his channel and you do a bike swap race with him on yours or something.

[@johannscheer]

This is constant poweroutput! Would love to see the Elves Falath Evo in a comparison. They claim it's an Aero-road-bike, but does it hold up to that?

[@liammerrick6399]

It'd be nice to see the difference between the Scott and a brand new entry level bike with an aluminum frame. 2000$ range. That's what I ride and I see no point in the future where I'll be able to afford an upgrade and I'll bet there's a lot of folks in the same boat.

[@mattwatson3721]

This was a comparison, I didn't know I needed but am glad to see. I am looking at upgrading an "entry level" bike I got in 2015 (aluminium frame, carbon fork, 105, rim brakes. With changes in bikes over the last few years, I am thinking of getting an entry level carbon bike in the 3-4k range. I would love to see how they compare.

[@michadebicki6534]

The difference will be negligible. Just buy some top tier tires, decent wheels and tweak the position for some aero gains. (Narrower handlebars, lower stem level) If you do this all other upgrades will give you maybe 1%, the things I mentioned are the biggest factors for the speed, all the rest is marginal.

[@steveouwerkerk7719]

This comment may have already been made. Try the same bike test using similar tires on each. I bet the tires make almost as much difference as the bikes themselves

[@zoidulmiah4371]

I'm glad you did it with a proper bike for the cheap one, not the silly Eurobike!

[@rolandcolavizza5368]

You can just about close the gap by buying tubeless gp5000 and some 50mm carbon wheels ,also those gater skin tyres are slow AF, on my 2017 giant propel I gain about 1.8/h from changing the tyres and wheels, which transforms my training bike to a race bike.

[@kid_gen]

There is some serious problematic math going on in the results. You can't add both total times and base your total savings on the difference between them. You have to go and divide 56 seconds by 2, because it was two separate riders. The true savings is an average of 28 seconds, which in the cycling world is still significant, but way less significant than 56 seconds. As many have mentioned already, not using the same tires is a critical error in this test too. Same tires and PSI are required to get a more accurate result. Lastly, the savings overall of an aero bike are most significant over long distances - the longer the ride, the better the savings.

[@NorCalCycling]

might want to double check your math. Also, not using the same tires and wheels is kind of the point of this test, if I made upgrades this wouldn't be an "entry level bike vs high end bike" it would be "entry level bike with upgrades vs a high end bike". I've made that video too, results were really interesting suggest you check it out.

[@kid_gen]

@@NorCalCycling Maybe I suck at math, but Mitch's ride was 10:13 on the Scott, and 10:41 on the BH. That's a 28 second difference. Jeff's ride on the Scott was 10:28, and on the BH it was 10:56. Again a 28 second difference. Over the same ride, the savings is only 28 seconds per rider, not 56. Totaling the savings makes no sense in the context of this test. As it applies to the tires, the difference in price is negligible between calling a tire "entry" level and another one "high-end." We're not talking about $500 difference between one tire or another like bike frames. We're talking $50 more or less. So setting the tire as a control for this test is perfectly reasonable.

[@lemonjuice6177]

bruh, you can’t do math

[@lemonjuice6177]

@@kid_genyou suck at math bro, doesn’t matter if you add both or add both and then divide by 2, the proportions are the same for the comparison, thats why if you go to you calculator and test, it will give the same percentage.

[@JanMG]

West (scott foil) vs East. Do what trace velo did. Full chinese: x18 trifox / Ltwoo erx groupset / race work carbon crank / elite wheels drive 60d. Test should have a constant tire and tube/tubeless as control as we can all agree that quality tires can give you more speed than going dura ace.

[@chuckyfox9284]

You'd need around 340 watts to go the speed of the Scott on the BH. About 20 of those watts will be down to rolling resistance of the trash tires on the BH, maybe another 3 to the not as well maintained drive train, the rest is going to be aerodynamics. I edited this comment, because my original comment didn't take account of how much more aerresistance you face when going slightly faster at those speeds.

[@lunathedog3924]

Rim brakes are propably 10+ W faster than disc brake so thats why

[@davidjames5168]

A difference of 4% in speed is closer to 12% in power or 40 watts in this test

[@chuckyfox9284]

@@lunathedog3924 At least according to the peak torque video they are not.

[@chuckyfox9284]

@@davidjames5168 Damn, you are right. I really underestimated the difference a small change in speed makes in watts at this speed. I guess that means with matched tires you'd need to produce 20 extra watts on the BH, which might be a slightly smaller difference than expected, but sounds reasonable.

[@NorCalCycling]

thank you for this!!

[@elmills81]

Would be interested the 2,000-3,000 dollar range, whether Chinese open mold with nice tires or something stock from a mainstream brand, but understanding what the price to performance curve looks like would be really interesting over the next several videos.

[@BETRNSX]

Agree. This price range (2-3k) is prob most common amongst serious riders. Good tech but also affordable. $10k is just beyond what many people can afford or want to afford.

[@aminostruth3494]

4.3% gain for $10.5k extra. Seems reasonable! 😂

[@RoadHardened]

If you can somehow run this experiment again where you are purely testing the aerodynamic speed of the frame, that would be interesting. Same tires, same wheels, etc... I bet with the same tires, similar depth wheels, and identical body position the BH is maybe only ~0.5-1% slower than the Scott.

[@Xarx42]

The body position is actually my biggest issue. I suppose, because the Scott is an aero bike, the position on it is naturally lower. So I am afraid, with the different geometry, there will be inevitably a certain margin of error.

[@NorCalCycling]

I agree, the frame is probably a very small component of the savings.

[@veganpotterthevegan]

The frame and bars will be a bigger difference than that. Probably a good 20w or more. *Pretty crazy how slow round tubes are with cables sticking out. My Domane(an endurance bike ffs) is actually faster than my rim brake Cervelo Soloist. That's with the same 28mm tires and very similar box section rims(don't like training on aero wheels). Probably not true without water bottles but who rides like that? *Both bikes are within 2mm of one another in terms of fit.

[@DeStraatz]

Like many of the other comments, I think there is at least 20-30w rolling resistence in those tyres and tubes. I would rather have equal tyres for both bikes, also cos those BH tyres were CRUUUUUUUSTY, and would have been replaced anyway. I think the difference between the two bikes would then come down to maybe 30 seconds, 20 would be a stretch but not unrealistic.

[@NorCalCycling]

not sure it's that much but might be worth testing "minimal" upgrades on the bh like tires

[@DeStraatz]

Maybe i'm overexaggerating, but there is a reasonable saving to be had on the tyres. My educated guess between the two bikes is around 16-20w if the positions are identical@@NorCalCycling

[@dylanl9532]

You should do a video for avg power needed to stay in the bunch following wheels with the group traveling at 30km/h, 40km/h and 45km/h for 10 minutes. According to peak torque aero doesn’t matter when you are following wheels in a group. If the same tires are used so that rolling resistance is the same, by that logic you will see the same power reading.

[@michaelmechex]

Aero doesn't matter when you're following wheels *as much.* It still matters though, if you're huge as a barn door, you're not getting as much help in the slipstream. Also the more aerodynamic is the person you're following, the less slipstream you get overall. Let's say, if you were riding on a more upright road bike in a group of time trial bikes, you would feel almost the same as riding solo.

[@NorCalCycling]

on a flat and straight piece of road, the principal force you're riding against is drag whether or not you're in the draft. the more wind you're pushing through the bigger the benefit of aero position / aero equipment. That's why I will adjust my position on the bike depending on teh race conditions... tucked in the draft at low speeds? get comfortable and more upright, open your diaphragm. bridging to a break in a headwind solo? TUCK and get as aero and efficient as possible, even if it's uncomfortable in the short term.

[@yougottrapped]

Have you checked entry level bike prices recently? 105/Carbon will cost you 1500 at least

[@mitchellsteindler]

It always has. Hell a caad10 105 was 1500

[@ralphmartinez8616]

More homie. Your looking at 2k. Not including tax and shipping

[@michaelmechex]

Definitely not new. Now with the new mechanical 105, they can go as low as 2500, but recently a 105/Carbon bike was more like 3500-4000

[@ralphmartinez8616]

@@michaelmechex I bought my carbon rim brake canyon last year for 2200k total. But of course they don’t sell it anymore 👎🏽 came with an ultegra group set, carbon frame . Bike weighs in at 15.5 lbs

[@michaelmechex]

@@ralphmartinez8616 Yeah, but that's a rim brake bike, which most people (including me) wouldn't buy in 2023. Although if I did, I'd buy used, because a slightly used bike of those specs is worth about 900 in my area. Similar spec in hydraulic disc brake model is worth at least double that.

[@yogatriathlete]

A lot of comments here are saying to put GP5000 tires on the BH. If you do that, you would also have to upgrade the tires on the Scott. The Vittoria Corsa Control tires are not exactly fast. The Corsa Pro however would be a perfect competitor to the GP5000

[@Ultegra10SPD]

Wrote this off when he takes an old but light race bike but it has r500s with junk tires slapped on it. i'd take my old defy alloy with tiagra (couple lb heavier easy) but on good meats and decent wheels. -U10

[@NorCalCycling]

i wanted to keep this entry level, so i didn't make any performance upgrades, but based on comments ppl might want to see "upgraded entry level bike vs high end bike"

[@biglegcatluvr]

Jeff I have an inkling that putting similar sized wheels and type of tyres on the BH would've brought really close results, maybe even negligible difference between the two frames over a short course like that.

[@wesleyvandeurzen7199]

Could have atleast put good tires on the BH 😭

[@jgrefrath]

I love the comparison test videos. Like some others, I wonder how much upgrades on tires and wheels would help even the gap to the Scott. Those tires, especially the Bontrager, seemed past the end of life. RAIN BIKE!

[@neilmdon]

Tires? What happens if you pop some GP5000s on that BH? Gator skins are vewy vewy slow. My guess is 2% is in that (as someone who owns very expensive bikes…)

[@sethcycle4591]

Would love to see a China build vs direct sale mid price brand like Canyon Ultimate or Aero Road vs high end big box brand

[@rufiotv7542]

Very nice content, no shilling and just the truth!

[@zhaoyue9559]

Awesome video! One vote for TFSA JH-06 vs Tarmac SL6.. Actually more interested with the BH bike, with a slight upgrade to a proper tyre and tube. If possible, then plus a pair of cheapest carbon wheels. Highly suspect it's the tyres that makes the difference.

[@frankmerriwell8339]

It would be great to see a test run with the Elves Falath Pro. This frame has been on my list for sometime I wonder how it performs compared to higher end models.

[@mmurmurjohnson2368]

You've got to run these tests with comparable wheelsets. Deep section wheels are the most performance enhancing road bike innovation of the last 17 years IMO, and hands down the worthiest cycling investment/upgrade, I'd even say over the frame in many cases Throw a set of 55s or 80s deep dish wheels on the BH to foil the Foil. Also willing to bet with wheel's upgraded the BH out climbs the Foil In general, 2010's rim brake bikes plus deep section wheels are pretty much future proof if you're aim is speed. Now if your looking for comfort, stability etc. well that's a different story, as modern road bikes let's just be honest, are either just light gravel bikes or in the case of aero rigs light TT bikes, no hate though, I enjoy them all, but you can definitely build a comparable competitive machine for around 2k

[@dannewton8409]

Definitely interested in a low, mid, high price range compare. I’m conflicted whether you should try to match some things on all bikes because the entry level here is realistic of entry level and not entry plus a couple of hundred bucks. If anything maybe have a little better tires on the low end bike because gator skins are an avoidable watt loss and affordable small upgrade. I like this comparison with different rims. People encouraging to see a test with similar rims, changes the entry level bike to a non entry level bike. Very curious to see what you choose as mid-level. A comparison between open mould and a similar big brand would be good.

[@highyields]

really appreciate these videos. Would like to hear your opinion on bike sizing and frame sizing

[@adamsouthard1155]

100% Yoeleo or Winspace. Their aero frame with hi-spec wheelset comes out to around $3-4k. And that's what a new mid-range bike with carbon wheels costs like the Canyon Endurace CF-7 with e-tap. Or the Ventum NS1 with Rival or 105. I think it would be very interesting to see what a Chinese Superbike at Western Brands mid-tier pricing would do. And if you could get a mid-tier as well that would add a huge amount of data to this project of yours. The project being: if I am interpreting it correctly - how much do I have to spend for a given amount of performance and - alternately - what is the lowest amount I have to pay to get a level of performance I am satisfied with.

[@xuchenglin6256]

The "mid-tier" is just a marketing term invented by the bike brands to charge you more (luckily you don't even go "high-end")... Don't fall a victim of that. That's just called "price discrimination" on economics textbooks. Yoeleos and other Chinese brands are OK. There's no difference between them and the western companies besides the marketing. They fit well in the "low-to-mid" spectrum of western brands simply because A> They don't have huge marketing overhead. B> For the same margin the staffs in West would starve but the staffs in China would live like a king. You may feel Chinese brands must be struggling for the less margin, but in fact in their perspective the margin is just so huge... Before establish their own brands they are OEM factories for 10 or 20 years. They earn a dime for what's a dollar, so now it's just easy money for them. "$2000 just for a pair of wheels and these westerners call it cheap, these western bikers are crazy!" that's how they actually think. Actually I believe for the current bike price increasing trends the biggest winner could be those Chinese brands, because A> this opens more market gap for cheaper stuff, B> with everything rising, the lower end margin rises too, that makes their life even easier. IF there's something that will doom the western bike brands, it's themselves and this luxury $10000+ bike campaign they started. If you are already looking down on this way that means "cost-effect-ratio" matters to you, I suggest you just nail the macros and forget whatever else. All you need is $150 tyre + $1000 deep wheel. Then get the right size bike, improve your position. You'll be good even on an alloy bike. Yoeleo or Winspace may not give you the "confidence" when you are putting 250 or something watts, but when you putting 300w+ easily it just doesn't matter. (IF you are stronger than that just forget the last sentence).

[@vulcanprincess1584]

i'd love to see a test on an old 80s frame (with modern components?) to see how much weight factors in (i wonder how much it factors in on ascents and descents, besides on acceleration?

[@desmoMarco91]

for it to be a fair comparison the riding position should be EXACTLY the same (BH seems to have a less aggressive aero position) and wheels and tyres should too. I'd like to see that

[@johannesteich478]

I would also love to see a comparison between an Aero Bike and a non aero, for example Canyon Aeroad vs. Canyon Ultimate with same/similar specs.

[@brunospasta]

The problem is that its hard to compare the power from one powermeter to the other. should have done the test with powermeter in the padels and swap them

[@GATVCHANNEL]

With proper tyres and deeper lighter wheels I think the difference would be halved. Should consider running both bicycles on the same tyre next time. Great comparison nonetheless.

[@NorCalCycling]

spending money on upgrades would no doubt help the bh

[@adaycj]

What id like to see. Pick a mid tier bike that a rider with a few years of experience might ride. Test. Then swap parts (possibly off of the top end bike when possible to save money) and show how close you can get with upgrades. Get TPC to sponsor it, it is their market. Since they sell used stuff they can put all the stuff back up for sale after you guys test it.

[@kevinwong2488]

Would love to see a comparison of Scott and the winspace or like a specialized allez sprint!

[@davidgoon1978]

an old allez sprint please…😂😂

[@stefanhansen5882]

This was super valuable. How about doing the same with the exact same tires?

[@gefloigle]

Are there cracks in the BH’s rear tire? 🤔

[@K3MCL]

I’d rather see the test results for the same bike in the different versions. How about the entry level foil versus the foil pro?

[@kylehardenbrook6542]

Run it with a better wheelset only on the BH. Something that can be had used on marketplace or Pro's closet that is relatively affordable but aero and lighter. Might see a significant difference.

[@NorCalCycling]

good idea

[@brettmiller3413]

To be fair, the Ultralight is a climbing bike. Even if it was appropriately equipped with proper wheels and tires it's still at a huge aero disadvantage. The BH was and is a wonderful bike but it's playground is in the hills.

[@aisakup]

~5K Chinese bike vs. Scott would be great. Sticking to UCI approved equipment, I suggest the Elilee Blize 01, Magene EXAR DB508 wheelset, built with Ltwoo ERX and using the Elilee crank. Though not an open mold frame comparison, it would be a best of emerging Chinese brands that could be raced at any level vs. your WT-ready Scott. Would be fantastic to hear a "race" report (from Alviso), a ride report and a comparison like this one.

[@davidli3582]

Do an Elves or Yoeleo with $1000 Chinese carbon wheels and Ltwoo ERX groupset and compare it with the Scott. Maybe an equivalently priced mainstream bike brand as well.

[@WredFawks]

I'd be really curious to see a review on some of the smaller up & coming Chinese carbon brands. Elves and Yoeleo are known to be pretty solid frames and well worth it, but then there's also BXT, Seraph, Airwolf, and OG-Evkin all making some rather budget friendly options with supposedly better fabrication than just the old basic bladder. That said the quality control on them is still kind of suspect, especially with the carbon bars and in particular at least it seems, the brand Trifox which, well yeah, Trace Velo hasn't had much luck with the frames he's tested from them.

[@Mattytube18]

Yes, pls, more tests!!! Mid range Ultegra, and Chinese frames with high and components!

[@leonschumann2361]

elves falath pro is what l run. 1k for full carbon frame and cockpit. quality is actually crazy good for the price. also got a velobuild dogma for like 500 bucks. quality obviously worse. but in the like 1-1,5k range the chinese make very good frames. with the amount of chinese build with elitewheels or hypers, lTwoo eRX or something you should find somebody to lend you one.

[@obikedog]

4.3% doesn't sound like much over 6mi - flat - course. But when you're riding 200mi per week or riding in the mountains maybe you'll see and, more importantly, FEEL the difference! But sure people should get what they can afford. I'd add one can upgrade a lot on any bike and get it really close to a $10k machine (start with tires!) If you're not sure you'll like bikes - don't spend 10k - sure. But if you find you really like riding bikes, and you're on it 6 days/week for 11mos of the year - , you'll prpbably find a way to afford more! Riding bikes is about more than raw speed - thought that is fun. Personally, I ride for KOMs, handling, racing, handling, aesthetics, handling, enjoyment, handling, brakes, handling, Di2 shifting. Sure, I'd enjoy the BH if I was in high school or college; that's all I could afford. But to paraphrase Evelyn in "Fried Green Tomatoes": I'm older and I have more money. So maybe I'm crazy (I know my neighbors would say so!) but I can afford more and I'd rather spend it on bikes than a new Tesla or trips to the oncologist.

[@Thegentlegoon]

Test the BH with the same tires next, it’s only fair.

[@daltonbikeshop]

Hey Jeff! I'd love to see the Tarmac SL8 Pro and the Cervelo R5 included. Thanks for these awesome videos dude!

[@davidcook7008]

what about comparing an older SCOTT FOIL with the new one. For example I have the SCOTT Foil 40 with 105 components and Alto CC40 rims

[@juliusmeyer8535]

I’d be super interested in la comparison between bikes that are from the same mold, form instance a canyon Aeroad CF SL vs a Canyon Aeroaf CFR.

[@coreystpeter5123]

Perhaps a run on the BH with better tires and tubes? and maybe deeper wheels or at least fresh bearing. A cheaper wheelset($300-$600) that surprises me is the Fulcrum/Campy zero's/eurus. So fast and stiff for what they are. plus if a person is on a budget and racing they can afford back up parts.

[@chickenpoodle]

higher end aluminium bikes VS their carbon counter parts (allez sprint and the tarmac SL7, or the emonda ALR and the SLR, for example), with the same wheels/tires, etc

[@oquendojo]

Some things to ocnsider. You try again by putting an aero handlebar to the BH, Bontrager has a pretty aluminium one for about 100 euros and maybe try some deeper wheels on the BH as well. the shimano R500 are good for an entry level bike and they have a nice performance going uphill (I had those when I started) but they aren't aero at all, compared to the 60mm deep of the dura ace ones. the vision trimax 35 would be interesting, not the same but you gain some depth.

[@michaltreder]

would be great to see a test of chinese bike in comparison, maybe to make it more interesting you could be a chinese frame and wheels and throw on the components from the BH? I feel like that what many people would actually do to keep it low budget and also the frame and the wheels make the biggest difference anyways

[@civilian36vf]

Hey, looking to choose between a Scott Foil, Madone, SL8, or supersix as cat1 racer doing rolly road races and crits. You able to share any insights on which you woukd go for and why ir oerhaps could do a review of how the foil rides?

[@rickhutcherson6447]

So you add the times together? The single difference was less than 30 seconds for 10,000 dollars?

[@fastbladeproductions7961]

Vitus Zenium taigra..... just bought it when they had Labor sale.... $1300.... I figure just have to switch out the wheels which to Vision Trimax 30 with Perelli P-zero tires... got them for $250 on Ebay.... switching out the crank to an Ultegra 8000..... bike will weigh in at 18lbs +/- .... that's all I need.. not racing ... yet... thanks for the video....

[@bjf5027]

This video verified what we have all suspected. You cannot buy any significant amount of speed. Its significantly more effective to just get into better shape.

[@kierenkd]

100% I lost my gut and improved flexibility and could get more aero. Both zero cost

[@davidcarino6500]

I've done the same, no power meter just a heart rate monitor! Flat land no difference!!!! Going up 5-10% grade for a 30 minute climb the new bike is a little faster. Saying for an Avg riding, according to Starva 150-200 watts......

[@AlanForest]

I’m personally impressed by the performance of my 2023 Felt FR 30

[@NeimanLevenson]

would love to see a budget pimp my ride style video of the BH bike. see if you can breathe some fresh life back into it and see how much of that 4% difference can be made up while just doing small simple upgrades. (GP5000 + TPU Tube, wax chain, slam stem, and maybe upgrade to a good bank for buck set of carbon wheels like hyper, elite, etc or find a second hand set) i bet that bike can be a lot faster with a few simple tweaks even without new wheels

[@gregkane8635]

The gator skin will make a massive difference. I’d like to see it redone with control tyres. Would show the difference in frame and wheels

[@joenation0]

I’d love to see a vid comparing different kit on the same bike. Eg top-end skin suit, aero helmet and overshoes, versus race jersey and shorts, mid-high helmet and shoes, versus T-shirt, baggy shorts, basic helmet and shoes. Same bike/tyres/position/power etc. I bet you’d see a bigger gain than the Scott bs BH for a lot less money!

[@billkallas1762]

How about the $1,000 bike with the wheels from the Scott? I would guess that the cheap bike would be less than 10 seconds slower than the Scott, that way. PS. How many extra watts would you have to push to get the "cheap" bike to finish in the same time as the Scott.

[@dannewton8409]

Interesting question about the extra effort to finish in the same time 👍

[@philipa1842]

Winspace mid-tier would be an awesome comparison!! Same tires on all bikes if possible would be best

[@BennyHubba]

Upgrade the BH and retest. Honestly the amount of bike you can get for $500 for a recreational rider is pretty great.

[@yannickslowig6193]

I really like this idea of comparing a high end bike to an entry level bike. But the comparison is quite difficult. You use two different power meters, so when both display 300watts the reality might be different and you're pushing 290 on one and 310 on the other. 20Watts explain a few seconds. Also in frame 2:06 you can clearly see that on the two bikes both of you have slightly different positions. Being more crouched on the BH bike. Then on the Scott you're transporting a bottle, while on the BH you don't. Also because of the wind a few more test rides would be better. Maybe you can consider this in your next video, to have more precise results or mention it for those who are not aware.

[@engyn0]

Not to nitpick too much, but I notice that you have aligned the rides for these two bikes by targeting the same power meter reading. But this introduces the possibility of systematic shift between the two. Sure you got 300W reading on both sets of rides, but the power meter on one bike could be systematically shifted by a couple percent from the other bike. So your error bar on these is ~1% on the 300W target, right? Still valid results, just worth considering the source of systematic error.

[@Northwindbreeze]

One thing is for sure I can get from A to B in a type of car or any type of bike: but how I get there (the feelings only money can buy) matters so much! This is just why we have luxury vehicles and now luxury top-tier bikes (stupid or not? Or just appreciation for excellent engineering?)

[@darrengarvie8832]

As many have said good tyres would help a lot and if you slipped the deep section wheel into the BH you probably will be surprised how better it would have went.

[@NorCalCycling]

but a lot of people can't afford those upgrades so i wanted to keep this truly entry level.

[@darrengarvie8832]

@@NorCalCycling true I'm one of them my first road bike was a btwin triban 5 with Sora 9 speed I have changed the wheels twice one to a set of cheap hand built ones then to Shimano rs but I always had good tires on them. I now ride a 2015 focus with 105 and Mavic wheels and to be honest I was just as quick on my old bike lol not that I'm putting out big watts 160 at most full sprint 800 ish I don't have a power meter

[@AC-es3en]

Ultegra on the BH is considered entry-level now??

[@40yearoldskater4]

This "Parts bin " Bike ,is a better set up than my Current set up, that I'm getting KOM's on Strava on and I'm 44 .

[@_Viking]

Same type of tires, same tire pressure and preferably the same gear ratios (even the same group set), might be more fair. But it depends on what you actually want to measure/compare. Here it was a random cheap bike vs a random expensive bike (which usually also have different tires etc.)

[@DAWMiller]

Love the idea of a mid-tier to top-tier comparison, but what about something like a 5-8 year old bike on a 105 or Ultegra groupset and some basic aero wheels. That seems to me to be the real comparison people at a sun-amateur level with some legs are making at home when buying bikes

[@bighammer3464]

At least you are consistent with the bad time percentage comparison

[@NorCalCycling]

math checks out 🤙