CZ 527, 17 Hornet, 125-275 yard dog shooting.

[@blackzack2296]

Haha that comment about the "you hypocrites don't need to go away mad, you just need to go away" comment just earned you a click on that subscribe button...great shootin'! Looks beautiful out there.

[@juliusjames9244]

Thanks for taking the time make the video. Enjoyed watching.

[@screaminsal]

Thank you for the great video and the excellent commentary. I love that rifle and the caliber. More videos please!

[@davidcaesar1913]

Love your work. Thank you for sharing your passion with us all.

[@johnsimmer976]

Great Videos on the Hornet. You talked me into picking up a slightly used CZ 527 in 17 Hornet. Barrel threaded, trigger adjusted, and pillar bedded... now we load ammo, and wait for spring.

[@cavedweller1959]

CFE BLK with the Hornady now discontinued 25gr HP is by far the most accurate so far. This spring I'll be using the 20gr V-MAX.

[@shawn4900]

That is one fine looking CZ and piece of glass. Nice shade setup too in the country.

[@jimf1964]

CZ makes some very nice guns. I got the 452 in 22lr. Really nice quality.

[@leftshooter3241]

Love your stuff Cavedweller. Keep it going

[@sekaf4125]

That looks so fun. Great set up. I live in southeast Alaska on an Island. It amazes me how wide open and flat that area is. Someday I’ll visit SD. Thanks for posting

[@cwade-sg9jb]

Once again great shooting!! I am loving the .17HH also!! I love the hills of TN where I am from but I really like the openness of your country in SD. Keep the good work!!

[@arnohag1]

Do the same with bunnies in Australia using the .22LR at up to 100yards. Some warrens are large and you can go through a brick (500) of bullets in a day. Love your passion and can watch all day. Non shooters do not understand the environmental destruction these little creatures can do if left unchecked.

[@ColinS216]

real nice shooting, just love the 17 range they pack a good punch for a little round, one of my fav rifle for small game

[@jamie57061]

Nice shooting! I'm practicing on my Tikka Tac 1 in 6.5mm. I'm hoping to pop off some long distance Crow/Corvid shooting in the UK, when i get a decent Hornady ELD-X load that's shooting straight and true! You seem to be doing just fine with your set-up! Well done!

[@roderickmccafferty332]

Hi Cavedweller, thanks for the robust reply. I reckon the rancher uses every bit of available land. Shepherds here also use large areas of low grade land to grow sheep for mutton, so I understand removing vermin that degrade the feed supply. Check out David Attenborough the naturalist regarding ground hogs and prairie dogs. Seems like they dig out the sub soil minerals and it gets mixed with buffalo fertiliser to make the prairies bloom. That little 17 Hornet sure hits hard and still leaves something left to photograph. I did enjoy watching your shooting skill.

[@phillycheesetake]

The 17 hornet is a fantastic and efficient cartridge, really aught to be more popular. With a good reloading setup it's probably the best way to stretch money across as many varmints as possible.

[@chadrides914]

I really enjoy your videos. Thank you for creating enjoyable content.

[@Kuzzzzman]

Awesome videos in some of the most spectacular country I’ve ever seen. Thanks for sharing !!

[@TOECUTTER876]

The states is definitely on bucket list and when I do Ive go to see South Dakota,love your clips.

[@jonesjones94]

need more guys like cave dweller around,no candy coating or worries about your soft ass feelings,tells it like it is and if you don't like it tough shit.. keep up the kik ass videos and thanks

[@brianmoore1820]

A great setup you have, lovely country and a fine commentated video. Thank you

[@joelseymour6372]

Nice shooting. Looks like a fun day, and as you said it beats working. Thanks for all your videos.

[@babaybluegill3273]

great job loved it!! really liked the driving in part! truck performed admirably

[@jim88252]

Great Video Thanks Cavedweller!

[@danny26ini]

Used to shoot those critters on a ranchers barley field in central CA. He welcomed us, said the dogs take 10% or more of his grain and with his wheeled harvester the mounds and tunnels are a problem too.

[@kolarshooter]

Those were ground squirrels, not prairie dogs. I love shooting ground squirrels!

[@troyk3098]

Love these videos I watch so many of your videos great for seeing good builds as well keep it up

[@Tully3674]

New sub - like your refreshing view on life and direct commentary.

[@sjohnson1776]

That is some pretty country out there. I'm planning a run out to Wyoming this year with dogs very high on the list. Really looking forward to it too!

[@marzcapone9939]

Nice shooting. I love my CZ 455 Trainer, got the .17 HMR barrel in there now, but also own a .22lr barrel. Getting a itch for a new caliber, looking and learning about the .22 Hornet, .17 Hornet, .17 WSM, and maybe the Ruger .204. I got AR's in 223/5.56 so don't think I want those calibers in a bolt action.

[@williamguralnick909]

Makes me homesick. Thanks for the share

[@paultroiani255]

I am about to become a resident of SD. Love it.

[@therattyfire5468]

Love your video's, your extremely honest and knowledgeable. I'm hoping to own a cz455 th in. 22 soon and I appreciate everything that you do in a way that everyone can understand. Thank you and good luck from Northern Ireland 🇬🇧 ATB... BILLY.

[@cavedweller1959]

Thanks for coming along.

[@garyothen7566]

I enjoyed watching that from the UK ...love the 17 Hornet ..

[@a2thee270]

This is making me miss the black hills. Was there in june and it was beautiful. Went to wyoming for a job interview and drove through S. Dakota on way home to illinois. Those of you that live there have a piece of heaven. Take care of it. I'll be back for some walleye fishing next summer

[@andeanphoto]

It was fun watching. Thanks for sharing.

[@jtairawhiti2436]

Hat goes off to ya cave man 😎 excellent shooting 🔫 + that ute set up is wicked. 😎🤩😎

[@rlh7210]

I have 17 hornet myself. I know how easy it is to fall in love with that little gun. I enjoy your video's , you helped the with glass bed of my own 17. Keep up the work. I have one question. does SD require a hunting for shooting dogs? Thanks again.

[@cavedweller1959]

If hunting license was the question, Then the answer is yes. Thanks for Watching.

[@manchapkarm3626]

Are these Factory rounds 20gr Vmax ? ,I like the 25grn Vmax and 25grn HP , but also my cz527v as a fondness for 20grn berger hp . Nice video thanks

[@cavedweller1959]

All hand loads today, 20 gr V-Max, AA1680 powder & CCI #400 primers.

[@manchapkarm3626]

Nice one i too use AA1680 (LovexDO63) cci400 .

[@JohnDoe-jn4ex]

Great fun 17 hornet is impressive. Thank you for your video.

[@rudygarcia127]

Can you give me some info on the suppressor? Thanks.

[@cavedweller1959]

Made by Mack Brothers in Sturgis SD. Called the Tango, full titanium, about 4 oz. Made for rimfires but will handle up to the 17 and 22 Hornets.

[@jamescullison2148]

Awesome JOB,,, love to watch you work!!!! Scenery ain't half bad either!!!

[@lelandwyse2142]

Very nice country & great shooting sweet targets!!

[@lionels6958]

Sweet targets?.peaceful squirrels and others...If you come and do that in my country(France) you will go back with .12 chevrotine in your legs...or worst...

[@joshbrady6132]

Absolutely love it. " Goddamn lib-tards!" Hahaha

[@jaredcorson4355]

Hope you see this cavedweller! How does a suppressed 17 hornet compare to a suppressed 17hmr? Hard to tell with videos. Is it say 10 percent louder?

[@cavedweller1959]

Without a meter, I'd say they are the same. You get the sonic crack, then the bullet wizzing down range, and hopefully, WHAAP.

[@samhaveaguess4284]

Great shooting mate love your work !!! We do similar things here in Australia with rabbits !!! With 22lr most times but if there a bit spooky we go to the 17hmr !! The 17 hornet hasn't really taken here as yet and the 17 super mag is making its mark !! But with 223 rounds so cheap here most will just go straight to is if the 17hmr cant get it done !!! But we do keep a few for the pot !!! Thats y the 22lr is preferred when possible !! Less meat damage !!!

[@scottknoeck4949]

Hey cavedweller love the videos I’m also a fellow Praire dog hunter it’s just a boatload of fun

[@kirkm4988]

Great video! Thanks!

[@PointofimpactTV]

Love your videos and love the 17 Hornet! The suppressor must be a luxury for you, even the 17 Hornet is loud unsuppressed. Keep em coming, I'm going to go out for some footage with my Hornet tomorrow hopefully.

[@cavedweller1959]

CZ or a Ruger?????

[@PointofimpactTV]

I've got me a lovely CZ 527 American second hand, picked it up a couple of weeks ago. It's shooting amazing too. Averaging 0.2-0.4 MOA with 25 grain V-Max and it's so much lighter than my varmint one was. I'm running 9.4 grains of Lil Gun with CCI BR4 primers and it's just stacking them. Best group so far was 0.19" :)

[@sergeyboroditskiy9912]

@cavedweller1959 hi, what is the name of the rings that you are using for your scope? thx

[@cavedweller1959]

Warne, 30MM medium height.

[@sergeyboroditskiy9912]

@@cavedweller1959 thank you

[@DPIDDY69]

Like the sound of these rifles. I'm just concerned with the availability of the rings on the market, my scope will sit far too high for a good cheek weld. What say you CaveDweller? Or anyone else who can help. I have also heard the bolt can have issues with hitting the scope bell.

[@cavedweller1959]

I use Warne medium hight rings on mine. In this video there is a 50mm scope with some room to spare. I have no issues with the bolt or cheek weld. If you can't find rings locally, check Optics Planit.com.

[@PontiacFreak]

I enjoy your videos. Please keep them going. Beautiful country!

[@kentuckyjustice1408]

I love it when they flip.

[@zukedog4451]

This might be a dumb question, but what do you do with all prairie dogs you shoot? Also your stock bedding videos are great. I learned a lot. Thanks.

[@neilharris4462]

Zuke Dog birds need to eat too, plus they make good fertilizer.

[@andrewgsxr1127]

Hi there, I have a Brno fox 2 in 17 ackley hornet that I love using on Indian mynas. Is your suppressor 223 caliber or is it a dedicated 17 caliber unit? Can you use a 223 suppressor on a 17 and get good sound suppression? Regards

[@csjrogerson2377]

I think he said it was for 17's only. He said that a 222 or 223 would rupture it.

[@willty]

Great videos keep them coming

[@derrickhillier1173]

Looks like retirement!

[@ozcountryliving4751]

Gday mate. I have the same gun but i am having trouble finding its preferred bullet. Also, how often do you clean the barrel on yours?

[@cavedweller1959]

I have gone as many as 275 rounds with no issues, and I'm sure it could have gone that many more. What is yours preferred bullet??

[@artfranz2273]

I’ve got the same gun too. And it’s consistent, everything you feed it groups at 1.5”. Until you set the bullets .010 off the lands and then it tightens right up. But then you can’t use the mag. And to feed it single shot is really ugly, you have to hold the gun vertical and then aim carefully and drop.

[@ozcountryliving4751]

@@cavedweller1959 Gday mate. Mine seems to like American Eagle. But i am soon going to try some reloads. I believe they should be better than 1.5" at 100m

[@gregoryfrick2270]

Love your vids, cheers

[@willrowell3218]

This is kinda off topic but how do you like that Tacoma truck? I've been a pretty loyal Ford Guy for all of my life but the Toyotas really look good and I keep hearing how good of trucks they are. Great video keep shooting those dogs.

[@cavedweller1959]

Love it. Drove nothing but Ford until this P.U. They start to nickel & dime you to death after 100K or so. It's got a 4 banger & 5 speed stick, runs 20mpg on the interstate with the air and stereo cranked. I've replaced the left head light bulb twice in 148,000 miles.

[@willrowell3218]

@@cavedweller1959 Awesome, Thank you, sounds like my kind of ride

[@wayne1380]

looks like fun. good job

[@wilmamcdermott3065]

Love that little hornet 17 for beaver

[@cavedweller1959]

When you punch them through the lungs, do you have an exit hole?? Back in my trapping days, I shot several dry land snared ones { ballistic Gelatin } sideways with a 22 Hornet-35gr V-Max- Every one had an exit wound. Just wondering.

[@wilmamcdermott3065]

@@cavedweller1959 shot in head never in body

[@wilmamcdermott3065]

@@cavedweller1959 i shot a muskrat with it in my yard vmax seams to explode on impact

[@wilmamcdermott3065]

@@cavedweller1959 totaly different from 22 hornet way more explosive

[@2023TravatoG]

Thanks for your videos. I like the yard numbers before each shot. Maybe do a close up and slow motion on some of the good ones. Looking forward to seeing more.

[@davidshupe3266]

What did one prairie dog say to the other???................Red Umbrella 12 oclock..............RUN!!!!!!!

[@hefniehawkins1564]

great shooting, yr shooting setup at back of truck is awesome, just curious are Prairie Dogs nice to eat..?? great videos, beautiful country...

[@Frostytravels]

Excellent video, great shooting. yep gods country.

[@The_Austin_Doell]

Hey Cavedweller, I just picked up a 17 Fireball, have you tried any bullets from manufacturers other than Hornady? Was thinking of trying some Berger's or maybe even some Lehigh's. Thanks!

[@cavedweller1959]

No , only what's available locally. Someday I will stumble onto something different or order online. Berger has a 30gr that has my interest.

[@artfranz2273]

cavedweller1959 Make sure you’ve got enough twist in that CZ to spin a 30 fast enough.

[@2rusty4u77]

ever try a single shot .223 bull barrel?

[@Djames53182]

Nice shooting cavedweller1959

[@paulkoehler7061]

Instant Shade...I LIKE!! Living just west of you (SW MT to be exact) I too have a .17H that I use for varmint thinning purposes. I'm intrigued by your ingenious shade setup as I'm not always able to find a nearby shady cottonwood. Would you mind sharing the dimensions and sizes of what you welded up? I've tried to attach umbrellas to my bench but with any wind at all there is entirely too much shaking transferred to the bench when I am reaching out over 200 yards. Thanks.

[@cavedweller1959]

It was just 2" pipe, just long enough to clear the tail gate, that I threw together on a whim just to see how it would work. Before spring gets here I want to make one from square tubing that's more user friendly. I'll make a video. Thanks for Watching.

[@paulkoehler7061]

Cavedweller1959 Thanks for the reply. I couldn't tell from the brief glimpse what you might have used for building the umbrella support bracket. It makes more sense to use square tubing allowing it to slide into the receiver hitch versus a round tube. I'll look forward to a future video showing your revised support build. In the mean time, I just might start rummaging thru the scrap iron pile and see what I can come up with. I enjoy your video approach...long on substance...short on BS! Thanks.

[@bobbythompson3544]

Nice of W C Fields to do your commentary for you!

[@Ianreason68]

I wish we had prairie dog in England there great to shoot . Shot a load back in 2002 just outside Rapid City. Hopefully coming back next year. Anyway good shooting . Going to watch you use the 22-250 now.

[@teacheng3795]

Hey Cavedweller, I love your videos and have really learned a lot from them too. I use a 22LR and 22Mag at the moment for rabbits and relatively close range foxes with my 243 and my 9.3x62 for the bigger stuff. Wondering how you compare the 17 Hornet and 17WSM as I have been thinking of one or the other of these for longer range small critters though the 204 is also coming into consideration. Noise from muzzle blast is an issue as suppressors are mostly not allowed here in Australia unless a special need can be shown by a licensed pest control shooter. All best from down under.

[@cavedweller1959]

If you have both guns & ammo available in your location, then the hornet is the hands down 1st choice. Both have recoil comparable to a 22 Mag, but the 17H has a 600 FPS advantage with both 20 & 25 grain bullets. I reload the hornet for about 21 cents apiece and purchase the WSM for about 34 cents. That 600 FPS gives you another 100 yards of realistic working range.

[@teacheng3795]

Thanks for the reply and advice, much appreciated. I'm not a reloader but have a good buddy who looks after that for me so I have my answer. Thanks again, David.

[@jerryfischer8821]

cavedweller1959, I have a dilemma, my son has the same rifle 527, 17 hornet, took rifle apart for reblueing of barrel and lost magazine catch. If you could take your stock off, what number is stamped on the magazine catch ? thanks, Jerry

[@cavedweller1959]

Not stamped, but it looks like #3

[@jim4903]

Nice setup Thanks

[@richardvanc3298]

rick vance I was wondering ,do you like your ruger model 77 17 hornet over your cz 527 , or really no choice ? I have a savage 17 hornet but i must say ,the looks of the cz have me thinking about spending the money ..

[@cavedweller1959]

The Ruger went away some time ago. It had to be cleaned every 20-25 rounds to maintain accuracy. Not a good feature for a dog town rifle. This CZ, it's gone well over 350 rounds with no side effects. Ya gotta like that.

[@richardvanc3298]

@@cavedweller1959 power surge cut me it looks like,, love the 17 hornet ,mine seems to like 20 gr. noslers happy shooting

[@jessecarpenter6434]

How does it do against wind at 100 yards

[@cavedweller1959]

If you listen to most folk talk, all you hear is the horror story's about the 17s in the wind. When it's getting too windy for this one, it's almost too windy for the larger calibers. Sometimes doping the wind is half the fun, but when it gets to be too much, there's always another day.

[@heresjohnny6598]

at 100 yards its not to bad because its still traveling pretty fast but at 200 yards you really need to step up your game

[@jessecarpenter6434]

Deplorable Centrist well then, I’ll keep that in mind. Thanks

[@k5at]

i've hunted dogs in the panhandle of Texas. Shooting a 223, the dog acted about what you are experiencing, but with a 17 HMR it created a pink mist as the dog exploaded! My longest shot was 320 yards with the 17 HMR

[@bcwoodz9483]

Do you prefer the 17 or the 22 hornet? Looking at buying a savage 25 in one of those calibers for lynx and coyote.

[@cavedweller1959]

For what I use them for, the 17 gains me, maybe a hundred yards on P-Dogs. If your buying for hunting coyotes, go NOTHING less than a 50 or 55gr bullet at 3000 FPS or so. .223 Rem, the 22-250 is better. If you are going light weight, the 17 with the heaviest bullet you can find that shoots straight would be my pick.

[@TexasTrained]

Nice shooting. I dont have a 17cal.Im a 22WMR fan.I may get one.Which do you like BEST of the 17calibers? 17 WSM?

[@cavedweller1959]

I like all of them. Which ones best depends on the moment.

[@TexasTrained]

@@cavedweller1959 honest answer.Not much help.Which one shoots farther?

[@cavedweller1959]

The one that holds the most powder. In my case it's the 17 Hornet at 3600 fps or so. If you want better than 4000 fps, you may want to look into a 17 Remington, ammo will be hard to find. If you are limiting me to rimfires, the WSM is a hands down winner.

[@51Dss]

@@cavedweller1959 just curious - running at well above 3400 fps how many times have you replaced the barrels on your rifles. Love your set up BTW.

[@therealfinn1839]

What's the barrel life on the 17 hornet

[@cavedweller1959]

Don't know if anyone has shot one enough to find out. Only using 10-12 grs. of powder, it's going to have a very long life.

[@therealfinn1839]

@@cavedweller1959 thanks

[@JohnDoe-jn4ex]

4ever

[@parkerbranaa5718]

Is the 17 hornet as loud as 223? I'm looking for something that isn't as loud

[@cavedweller1959]

I don't believe so, It's working with less than 1/2 the powder of the .223. I run this one with a suppressor, you hear a light crack, the bullet cutting the air and whaappp

[@terryhager9723]

I left central Kentucky 5 years ago , and Reilly miss groundhog hunting ,hunted mostly with hopped-up 243 + 222 rem. Mag. Moved to Florida for health . And have not pulled a trigger sense then. I enjoy your popping a cap in the little varmints.

[@Ebaybow]

The new to me 527 17 Hornet came to me pillar bedded! Off to the reloading bench we go!

[@cavedweller1959]

I've had my best luck so far with CFE Black.

[@dennishodson990]

You are one lucky fellow to be able to have access to such an area.

[@deltaf222]

Love this stuff- That rifle is about as hard to find as a white elephant; CZ quit manufacturing them which really blows.

[@oddfire225]

I just picked up a 17 hmr CZ457 yesterday, didn't know they had a 17 hornet in a CZ, I've been wanting a 17 hornet

[@deltaf222]

They don't; quit making them and used ones are $$$$$

[@JohnThomas-gj2zg]

That is one rifle I really want to get and that is some great shooting with that .17 HORNET

[@rosamarazzimarcelloarioli2366]

Salve gentilmente mi può dire che cannocchiale usa su la cz 527 in questo video grazie...

[@darrylryder8114]

Which round do you like better between the .17 hornet and the .17hmr? Or the .17wsm

[@cavedweller1959]

I like them all, but the "better" goes to the reload-ability of the Hornet. And if the others are not on sale, it's just as cheap, or cheaper.

[@darrylryder8114]

@@cavedweller1959 thanks man and by the way thanks for your teachings on bedding

[@darrylryder8114]

Ok I bought a cz527 17 hornet. What is your preferred optic? You have 7 yrs on me but I was a welder so I cant see squat without my glasses at range. Lol

[@cavedweller1959]

Dollar for dollar, I'll take the Leupolds.

[@rkba4923]

I have a 527 Carbine in .223 that's a tack driver too.

[@Scablands_Scavenger]

So, strange question maybe but here goes.. do the prairie dogs eat their own dead ? We have ground squirrels up here that will feed on each other after being shot, kinda strange watching them drag their buddy down a hole and chew on his head. Nice shooting by the way !

[@cavedweller1959]

I don't recall ever seeing p-dogs actually eating their dead bros, but we have a few flicker tails, Franklin Ground Squirrels I think, They eat the dead. Play the wind right & you shoot all day and never move, you can see them coming from several 100 yards when they catch a whiff of blood.

[@rkba4923]

I've seen PDs in my area, Black and White Tailed, eat their own and pull them down into their holes, presumably, to finish later.

[@robp259]

What rifle do you prefer in 17 hornet your 527 or m77?

[@cavedweller1959]

Nether of the 2 ever had blue copper fouling during cleaning, but the Ruger, after 25-30 rounds would hit every where but where I had aimed. Accuracy went completely out the window. I don't recall the exact number but it was well over 200 before the CZ gave up the accuracy. The set trigger is a sweet bonus also.

[@ss0073]

Just picked up .17 Hornet heavy barrel I’m assuming you are loading these. Any starting suggestions for good load?

[@cavedweller1959]

Not where I started, but what I settled on. With Hornady V-Max pills, I load 11.8gr of AA 1680 with the 20gr & 10.5gr with the 25gr. My favorite is Hornady's discontinued 25gr HP with CFE BLACK. This is in my CZ, When I started with the 17H, it was a Ruger HB, that one did best with Lil Gun.

[@ss0073]

@@cavedweller1959 Thanks I know that no 2 barrels are the same and all will shoot different, but that gives me something to look at for possibly a start....besides my loading manual.

[@vicproulx8062]

I’m trying to find my load on the 25g HP. I grabbed 400 when I had the chance. It shot the factory’s insanely well. I have CFE BLACK. Had to send rifle back to get the right bolt and it’s not going well with the new one. I’ve also heard the AA 2200 worked well also. Tough time finding any powder. Are you able to fit your loads in their magazines ?

[@ss0073]

@@vicproulx8062 Due to everything that’s going on with ammo and loading supplies, I can’t find AA1680 anywhere, and I refuse to pay the astronomical prices for CFE BLK. I however found some AA2200 locally that was dirt cheap. Read about some guys using it on 20g pills with good success....although most posts were with 25g. I decided to try with 20g Hornady’s to see how it went. Sub .5 MOA all day in a Savage M25, loads super easy. Just got some 20g Nosler HP that I’m gonna try also. Currently rebarreling a Win 43 in 218 bee to a 17 Ackley Bee with a Schilen barrel. Can’t wait to see how that smokes em 😉

[@jugado219]

What scope rings are those

[@cavedweller1959]

Warne 30mm find them on Optics Planet. Specifically for the 527, about $55.00 if you catch a sale.

[@Absaalookemensch]

Responsible shooter thinning out the over crowding of rodents while providing food for predators and carrion eaters. In our area ground squirrels will eat their dead, so there is no waste.

[@johnj5985]

Yessirree, some nice shootin' there Cavedweller!

[@bosstube9046]

Why tho

[@bosstube9046]

Nevermind just saw it was his name lol

[@dannilaser16]

Beautiful area.

[@justinpaffvett3367]

Hey great video I've got a cz 527 17 hornet over here in the UK. They are a great round fast and flat when we get wind we just dope the scope. Keep the videos coming sir much love UK hunter 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

[@cavedweller1959]

Hell, spring still seems like it's 2 years away. But hopefully it's better than last year.

[@13Hangfire]

Great shootin'! Thanks for sharing!

[@carsondubois]

Great shooting. How does your WSM compare to this hornet?

[@cavedweller1959]

It doesn't, With a 600 FPS difference they will never be in the same class. I think the WSMs biggest downer is the price of ammo, almost $35.00 a 100.. Can you see any hard core high volume dog shooters dropping 75 - 100 bucks or more to feed one rifle that realistically is only a 200-225 yard killer----per day??

[@hardtarget2359]

cavedweller1959 Can I ask why you prefer the 17H instead of 223R? 223 is pretty cheap, where I live just south of you the 17H is a little pricier.