D&C 132 Is a House of Cards

[@stilllearning885]

I watched this video last night and wondered how to process what I heard. Today I read the LDS version of DC section 10 and the RLDS version of DC 3. I used to think this was speaking of Martin Harris but as I read it today I realized it is speaking of all those wicked men who changed the words of Joseph Smith after he died. The Lord knew what was going to happen. Thank you helping me to see this.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

This morning I was reading about a vision William Marks, the Nauvoo Stake President, had. He saw that the church was like a tree where the branches had all become corrupted. God told him that the only way to save the tree was to disorganize it and then God would organize it again later. This also aligns with Joseph's last dream. God knows how to save his people. However, we must trust in God and not trust in man, otherwise we might miss God's endtime work.

[@ericbyers235]

Dont stop there. You should also consider the false doctrine of the restoration. Before it was changed, the original section equal to 18 today, stated that this was a reformation. That was conveniently removed in 1832/33. Also should consider the original of the current D&C 5.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@ericbyers235 I do know about the massive changes in D&C 5. I address these in my video, "Did Joseph Exceed His Bounds?". I believe he did exceed his bounds and essentially changed some revelations to benefit himself. However, I am not sure about D&C 18 that you mentioned. Do you have the original text? I searched and didn't see anything.

[@Toothnut_Hamsterfolder]

Thank you for your time and helping me to figure things out!

[@MarkHigbee]

For any who don't believe God has a body I suggest you study 1 Corinthians 15 which teaches that there are heavenly (celestial) and earthly (terrestrial) bodies also called natural bodies. Pay attention to verse 49. It says the resurrected will bear the image of the heavenly. Heavenly bodies are spiritual bodies that are not corruptible, not to be confused with spirits that don't have a body. The ones waiting for the resurrection. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Jesus was resurrected and now has a heavenly spiritual body of flesh and bone. See Luke 24:39 Just as Jesus was resurrected so will we be. (1 Corinthians 15:21-22) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

[@jaredvaughan1665]

Name me one important indispensable doctrine that is in verses 51 to 66 D&C of 132? You can easily remove this for being private, one directional (I would argue abusive) correspondence from Joseph to Emma. It was not at all meant for the church. In fact, it is a shocking embarrassment that the Church has not removed these offensive verses already. The 12 had the power to remove throat cutting parts of the endowment without a mass apostacy. Why cannot they at least remove this part? I would go further and only include verses 4 to 33. And decanonize the rest. Just as not all of the letter that includes sections 121, 122, 123 were canonized. I think if the Church only kept verses 4 to 33 that the Church would have inched closer to being ready to receive the sealed plates. Polygamy was a massive stumbling block that split the Church and reduced millions of potential members.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

v59 is probably used by leaders to support their actions. It is not needed, but certainly reinforces the leaders can do no wrong approach v 46 is used to say a "sealing" is binding in heaven. This is a misunderstanding however this is how it is used. I would remove all the private revelations from D&C as they are not that helpful to us today.

[@jaredvaughan1665]

Verse 46 says: "and whosesoever sins you remit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven." Doesn't only Jesus and God have the power to remit sins? Also, yes, the sealing power is mentioned in verse 46. But it is mentioned elsewhere in the scriptures. Verse 59 says: "if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin, and I will justify him." What is new about that? If one acts according to God's law, one does not sin. So I definately say D&C 132 should end at verse 33. But at the very least, 51 to 66 need to be deconized. I did not say refuted. The Church did not refute the women wearing the veil in the temple. It just discontinued the practice. Because it was offensive and not necessary for the overall temple message. And they can do it here too with these troubling parts. The Church has already decanonized and/or altered numerous sections of D&C already. Why not now?

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@jaredvaughan1665 They certainly could. I think most members probably wouldn't care. However some certainly would. Keeping part of a revelation though is more problematic than removing the whole thing. We know almost nothing about the origins of 132. It is a massive he said, she said back and forth.

[@jaredvaughan1665]

​@uncorrelatedmormonism The same arguments were raised with getting rid of polygamy. I see the challenges removing it would have. I do predict though that if enough members called for it to be removed it would be removed. (Without needing to refute it or remove verses 4 to 33.) And in the age of the internet never say never

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@jaredvaughan1665 Yes, the way the church is going it will likely be removed and gay marriage added. These 2 things seem to be the major issues today.

[@MaryW359]

I want TRUTH no matter what comes out of it.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

That is a good attitude. I wish more people had an attitude like that.

[@mr.hermit2433]

Who are "The True Servants" You are expecting to return?

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

I am not sure. It could be fanciful wishing on my part. However, I believe there will be an end-time prophet that people will coalesce around similar to Moses. Some have said that this will just organically happen instead, however I am not sure about that.

[@peterhook2258]

Foundational concepts..first. The final authority of all things spiritual are between God and You and are communicated to your heart. Sure scriptures, men, leaders, community can be avenues of ideas and concepts and study material but none should be an idol. And as soon as you set one of these things up as an idol....a huge stone will crush it to pieces...and is doing so. Back to basics folks. Yeshua is one with the father, and the divine authority to understand spiritual things is within you. Lets get back to basics. Send everything thru this filter and hold everything else only if its supportive of these things. Peace.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

This is true. The hard thing though is everyone interprets this wildly differently.

[@user-ql2id3ml3i]

You need to decide what you believe. You can't pick and choose. Either Joseph Smith is a liar and everyone (and everything else) is a lie, or Brigham Young is a liar and everyone after him is also. Either way Brigham is a liar. Try going back to the beginning and work from there. You'll actually have to dig into the real history of the church for that. Joseph Smith's mission was to bring forth the Book of Mormon in the latter days just as God promised he would do, period. Joseph admitted at one point after that, that we shouldn't rely on him and we should get our answers strait from God and that he (Joseph) was a fallen prophet. Everything you need to know about God's true church is described in the Book of Mormon. (Mormon 8 describes the LDS church today) The LDS church went off the rails when Brigham and John Taylor conspired together and killed Joseph and Hyrum (and most likely their 2 other brothers) so they could bring forth polygamy. (you seriously think God would treat women like cattle?) You really need to research the REAL history of the church because you're just spinning your wheels here with the same arguments from different angles, trying to get insight that can't be found within the LDS church. Mormons and members of the LDS church are NOT the same thing.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

I actually know exactly what I believe. I am not picking and choosing at all. Absolutely Joseph was involved in polygamy and started it in the church. According to William Mark, there was a spirit of adultery in the church and Joseph was part of that. I have noticed that any time I say something true that people don't like then they get so upset.

[@jaredvaughan1665]

Joseph said he saw into Moroni's bare chest. This shows he had a resurrected body. Just as Moses saw "God's back parts" in the Old Testament.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Appearing in a physical form could be different from having a body. For instance, before we had a body then our spirits looked humanoid.

[@jaredvaughan1665]

I have found that in my own life, most false revelations I've received were influenced by lust. It appears that may have happened to Joseph in writing the polygamy parts of 132 that contradict Jacob 2. ("These things" in verse 30 refer to the abominations of polygamy elsewhere in the chapter and is not a loophole.) So I think at least 132: 51-66 should be removed. At the very least, for it being privately directed to Emma and not as speaking to the whole church.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

According to William Marks the spirit of adultery pervaded the church. I can see that being a very easy spirit to propagate.

[@cianosorio]

It would be incorrect to say that Polygamy is a false revelation some of the greatest Prophets and Kings were polygamists, Abraham,Moses,Isaac,Jacob,David,Solomon. Consider 2nd Samuel 12:8. The Lord can not give of or do that which is sin. People use these examples for evil, yes I agree. However when a righteous man uses it to glorify God he is justified by the most high.

[@jaredvaughan1665]

There is nowhere in the Bible that says Isaac was a polygamist. Many have speculated that Moses was a polygamist as the Bible mentions he had a Cushite wife. But Bible scholars have shown that his original wife's people were also referred to as Cushites at times. And many scholars think he was monogamous. Also, Jacob was tricked into polygamy. Hagar was a slave. Hagar's descendants continue to fight Israel today. Was this a good thing? Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say God commanded polygamy. Jacob in the Book of Mormon condemns Solomon and David's polygamy

[@cianosorio]

@@jaredvaughan1665 Respectfully this is False. In Samuel 12 God clearly states that he gave David his wives. God can not do that which is a sin. The prophet Jacob condemned their sin, The Nephits loved their other wives and concubines more than their first wives and children. This was the sin. David’s sin was adultry not Polygeny. Solomon’s sin was allowing his wives to worship other gods other than YHWH, this was the sin not Polygyny. Christ compares himself as the Bridegroom to many virgins who go with him into the bride chamber. (I know this is a metaphor for the second coming and that the church are the virgins). However Christ would not compare himself to that which is sinful. In some situations yes righteous people who are in polygamist relationships sin and fall, as do people in monogamous relationships. The condemnation from God is against sin not Polygamy.

[@cianosorio]

You were right about Isaac there is no biblical evidence of his polygamy, that was a mistake on my part.

[@holyroller4391]

I like your style, but I'm not sure why this is such a tough subject for you. I think maybe your carrying residue core beliefs instead of throwing off all information that's repugnant to properly align with God. I do know your appealing to a certain crowd, but why not throw off current cultural issues? Really polygamy has always been around in many religions and cultures. Only today is it such a big deal. And honestly how is it morally wrong to commit and marry and take care of two women? Only for immoral people is this an issue. To attack polygamy at the same time as accepting God is strange, is actually kinda strange to me. Especially when taking into account most of His chosen people have been polygamists. Are you making a issue because it's a issue today? Honestly I don't see the issue. At all. Our culture is completely removed from God and His culture. I think if you were more open to God's culture you'd see it more clearly. Good to hear you thought.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

I think polygamy is wrong in the sense that God needs it, or God is in a polygamist union. However, in the video I say that I am completely fine with it also. Honestly, I am fine with consenting adults doing almost anything. If God wants polygamy, then I fine with it. However we need to know for sure and there should be no gray area like we have today. This video doesn't attack polygamy at all. I simply am making the case that if we remove 132, then we really need to be aware of what we are doing. 132 is a critical revelation for many things in Mormonism, not just polygamy.

[@cianosorio]

@@uncorrelatedmormonismI Can agree with this. If we are to say we are Christ true church we should be able to have consistency in our teachings and doctrine. If consenting adults want to be in a polygamous relationship or a monogamous one, if they truly are striving to be disciples of Christ so be it! The problem comes when switch teachings every couple of decades.

[@cianosorio]

Current western society and governments are completely out of line with Gods teachings. One of the ways Governments have controlled people throughout history was by governing marriage laws. I would say a more righteous society is one that allows polygeny to be practiced.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@cianosorio In the church we do attack polygamy as being terrible for the women, which I agree with. However, this is only because of human nature of telestial people. By definition, if celestial people practiced polygamy, then it would be a positive thing for everyone involved. Maybe this is why Joseph thought it was a good idea initially.

[@jaredvaughan1665]

@@uncorrelatedmormonism Then why is there slightly more men than women born? Every polygamist union creates a bachelor and neglected wife. You are saying this is what God wants? In the 1800s thousands of men left the Church unable to find wives. As the Church leaders were stealing (not sealing!) wives unto themselves. Abusing their positions of power.