Dangerous Open Ground Fix

[@heatingairservices8708]

Thanks yes as an 30 yr vet in HVAC ive seen all kind homemade wire jobs & Boning the neutral inside an 2 wire w/ no ground wire ( old Houses ) gas furnace switch box is one of them

[@bb55555555]

Thank you for showing this. I had no idea you could easily trick a tester like that.

[@ACommenterOnYouTube]

The tester looks for Voltage between the N and H as well as looks for Voltage between the G and H because the G and N are bonded together at the outside panel. So if it see's Voltage between both points, it "thinks" its properly grounded but this guy KNEW what he did would pass the tester.

[@bb55555555]

@@ACommenterOnKZbin appreciate the info

[@mistereeize]

How about putting in a GFCI circuit breaker for the whole circuit? Is that legal?

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

That is alot better than doing a bootleg ground for sure. And it's absolutely legal

[@robertmungenast4193]

nice video they call that a boot leg ground i saw it once , i enjoy your videos

[@silverface851]

the question that I always have and no one explains in their videos is why can't you have that if in the end the neutral and ground are joined at the main panel?

[@nevrbdwnruby7484]

In theory the probablity of getting shocked is there due to the fact he ran romex.. still this is not good practice for the true electrcian... If it was wiried differently like EMT, FLEX, Rigid or any other wiring method that shows continuity from the metal box and not blue (plastic no continuity to the panel) that EMT, FLEX, etc.... the metal of the EMT would be like a nuetral and touching that metal pipe can shock you...

[@ACommenterOnYouTube]

The Ground wire is the emergency "back" path for the current to flow back to the transformer for that split second before the breaker OR gfci trips from over surge, THATS IT In a normal operating circuit, the current flows between the N and H back and forth. That ground wire NEVER flows electricity unless the H touches the N, then the G goes HOT and the breaker or gfci SHOULD break open.

[@ronbo2883]

Holy crap! My mom's old house has two pronged outlets like the one you showed and I was going to replace it with a grounded wire just like in your video! I've since removed the outlet and capped the wires due to the following issue. Her outlet wires has power to it but not the receptacle and when I plug anything into it the power to the outlet wires goes away! I changed outlets and the same thing happens. Any ideas on why and how to fix. She did have a new panel put in and since then the issue to this outlet and the one upstream of it has the same issue. Thanks for the video and for any tips you can give me on my issue.

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Somewhere there is a loose wire, junction box, other receptacle etc or even in the panel

[@KevinCoop1]

My son bought a house knowing that there was an issue with an electrical sub panel that the inspector found. The basement was contracted 20+ years earlier to a general contractor to be finished. A 60 amp sub panel was installed. At the main panel, the black and red were in the breaker lugs with the white and bare on the neutral ground bar in the main panel. At the 60 amp MLO panel, the black and white were in the bus lugs, the red was in the neutral lug, and the bare was on an added ground bar. Single pole breakers were installed every other space so they would be on the bus connected to the white conductor. Almost every receptacle had the ears broken off and only one screw on each side. And of course, they were wired black on silver and white on brass so it would pass the plug in tester. Also found a GFCI was connected backward and did not work when test button pushed.

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Wow that's pretty terrible, hope that he got a good deal on the house. Thanks for sharing this and watching.

[@KevinCoop1]

@@MountaineerOutdoors It took me 6 hours to fix and change all the receptacles out. No big deal, but very dangerous.

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Good for you. I would have done the exact same thing.

[@Nicholas_PA]

So helpful, thank you. Please help me figure out how to upgrade from a 2 prong outlet with no ground, to a 3 prong GFCI that is safe for equipment use. If the outlet box is plastic with no ground in sight, would the following be correct: 1. Change out the plastic box with a metal one 2. Use a self tapping screw to attach a 6” ground wire to the metal box 3. Install a GFCI that has a ground screw, connect the 6” ground wire, neutral and hot

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Absolutely not on any of those conditions. Just use a gfci unless you want to really rewire everything

[@Nicholas_PA]

@@MountaineerOutdoors Aren’t high end electronics still unprotected when only using a GFCI ?

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

If you it to be done right I'd definitely get it fixed so that it can be as safe as possible for sure

[@davidmarquardt9034]

Just because you have a metal box in the wall does NOT necessarily mean it is grounded. To check a metal box for ground, a simple multi-meter set on ac volts is used. Wite one probe on the brass screw, put the other on the box itself. If it reads 120 volts, the box is grounded. if you get nothing, there is no ground connection to the box. I know that my 1950 house is un-grounded because the romex used has no bare copper included for a ground, 3 prong outlets were not required until the mid 60's. Now any lights or outlets in the basement are wired in conduit, which acts as the ground conductor.

[@apackwestbound5946]

As a homeowner working to educate himself when I was first introduced to a GFI outlet tester, like a Klein RT210, I thought I had found the "holy grail" of troubleshooting tools. I believed that if the correct set of light were illuminated in the tool then that meant all was well inside the outlet. Like most things this tool has it's limitations. When one is starting out on this electrical education journey typically one don't know what those limitations are. As you demonstrated it is easy to "fool" this tool. I had actually previously seen this scenario. You did not get into it; interestingly enough the neutral and the ground at the receptacle ARE actually joined together (ELECTRICALLY) and are at the same electrical potential, back at the home's main electrical service panel where the neutral and ground bus bars are connected. I am in no way suggesting that "jumping" the neutral and ground at the receptacle is an acceptable practice. On a side note I used this GFI outlet tester last week and it indicated correct wiring. When I opened up the box and separated the neutrals I ended up getting surprised when I "discovered" one of the neutrals was hot. When I measured that neutral it had 120 VAC. So I learned about "shared neutrals". The tool is helpful, but as in many things in life "there is more to the story". Just because the indicating lights light up "correctly wired" on a GFI circuit testing tool there still may be issues lurking inside the box that do not meet current code. And as you so perfectly demonstrated it does not mean that things are correctly wired; should be, probably is but not positively. While I am here, and this is already a long post, I have a question for you if you care to take the time to answer. At a residential panel in a home built in the 70s there are two separate circuits, each one protected by a separate 15 ampere (Ah) circuit breaker (C/B). And then there is a single 14-3 Romex. The black wire, from this single 14-3 Romex, is secured to one of the 15 ah circuit breakers. The red wire, from this same singe 14-3 Romex, is secured to a different 15 Ah C/B. Then this 14-3 wire is routed to a box in an upstairs bedroom. Inside the box in the upstairs bedroom the red wire is connected to a black wire from a different 14-2 Romex. That different 14-2 Romex goes to power a set of outlets in a different room. The black wire from the original 14-3 Romex powers the outlet, and then powers four other outlets in the same room plus the ceiling light using a second 14-2 Romex. Is this wiring lay out safe? I thought a size 14 wire was only good for 15 amps. The way this is wired, is it not possible that both upstairs circuits could individually be demanding 15 amps? If that were the case isn't that 30 amps on this 14-3 Romex? Since there is only one neutral wire from the original 14-3 Romex leading from the service panel up to the upstairs "box", and both circuits "share" this neutral; is not that neutral wire undersized for the total potential load? What would be the "fix"? Would running a second size 14 neutral wire from the box in the bedroom to the neutral in the panel be a safe & code compliant fix? Would I need to add a separate ground wire as well? Thank you for your valuable time and expertise. -Respectfully.

[@danediz]

Sounds like a multi wire branch circuit. If its done correctly, it is safe but there are rules. Hire an electrician to double check.

[@sigcrazy7]

Any serious home inspector should own and use an Ideal SureTest 61-164 circuit analyzer. It will find bootleg grounds without having to pull receptacles, along with other wiring problems. It’s not cheap, but it will save you a bunch of time and allow you to be very thorough.

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

I actually have that meter and it will not find bootleg grounds. You can easily trick any meter by putting the neutral and ground together.

[@sigcrazy7]

@@MountaineerOutdoors I meant to say Ideal SureTest 61-165. These keys are tiny compared to my fingers.

[@Fabian9931]

So a gfci connected with 2 wires? Wouldn’t the tester still show its open ground?

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Yep but it does satisfy the code

[@theadventuresofjohnandjennifer]

But is it safe?

[@okaro6595]

That was the standard way to ground in many countries in the past. You are correct that it is not allowed in the US but it does ground and is not just about fooling the tester. There are reasons why it not not allowed basically anywhere and it has to do with interference it can cause.

[@carlossoto1851]

The only interference you can get is incorrect. Neutral and incorrect hot. In other words, a swished wire which is common without even using this procedure. ?

[@hammerridecycling7630]

this is what i have at my house.bought it last year

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Def not good

[@whitetiger8652]

Thanks.

[@thomashenderson603]

could you run a seperate ground wire from the panel to a two prong outlet to put in a three prong?

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Good question, but the answer is no. Seems like you should be able to but it's forbidden.

[@FranksBmwAdv]

How is a GFI going to work properly without a ground?

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

It senses an imbalance.

[@McmM-cv9sb]

`WOW THE IS A NO NO !! I am just a handy man but I no not to do that , nice video .👍

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Exactly.. I appreciate you watching and commenting ☺

[@immrnoidall]

Now you have me thinking...I see something similar. My house has the ground /neutral, at the box like normal. BUT. The electrical box in my, 120volt camper, that plugs into my house with a regular 3 prong 30 amp plug, also has the neutral/ground connected. this sound like the same situation as doing that to an outlet. Is that OK in the camper box too? HELP.

[@markwigdor7505]

Question please. Instead of attaching the negative wire to the green ground screw which I think is definitely wrong. Can’t we attach a wire to the green ground screw and the other end to the metal box or a ground in the romex

[@immrnoidall]

ON most receptacles , the green ground screw and the metal tabs on the top and bottom, that you put the screw through to connect it to the box, are the same thing. That being said, if you have a metal box ,that actually is grounded, and the screws holding it in are tight, that outlet would show it is grounded. If not, then that metal box has no ground.

[@kalebbort9246]

What happens if you put a socket tester into a 2 prong outlet with a 3 prong socket for the 2 prong outlet? (If that makes sense)

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Won't show any ground.. Open ground

[@johnh383]

@@MountaineerOutdoors which is fine if you label the outlet that way correct?

[@yarittromero5156]

Im having trouble myself. I put in a new receptacle with hot, neutral, and ground connected. Tester is still telling me open ground 🤷‍♀️

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

It's not connected to the panel, sounds like it's broken somewhere

[@JohnSord-t3d]

Newbe here. Like your content.

[@TheOracle313]

So, I'll have to upgrade my entire home or put all GfCI in ?

[@johnh383]

Only if you want 3 prong outlets. I think you can put the threes on a 2 box and label them as no ground and be ok

[@johntrauger]

I think they call them a "bootleg" ground. Not legal for sure.

[@mykedntsleepmykedntsleep9313]

Yeah some apartments I work on like 1950 &1960s bootleg on a gfci

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Wow that's crazy

[@johnb2674]

You mention @1:47 that a gfci is acceptable, but does the gfci still trip to protect against shock?

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Absolutely, it's sensing the difference between hot and neutral it's definitely what you want to use

[@budh420]

I hooked up a GFCI outlet to a non-grounded house. The green light is on. Is it OK to run my computer off of that outlet not truly being grounded don’t care about getting shocked or electrocuted. I don’t want a backfeed or something to fry my computer. I always thought the ground was so you don’t get shocked, but I heard that if it’s not grounded, the computer can build up static and fry electrical components.

[@sigcrazy7]

Is it ok to run your computer on an ungrounded receptacle? Yes and no. You may be under the impression that a ground is there to save your computer from damage. It is not. The ground is there to provide safety by clearing a fault by providing an alternate path to ground. It has nothing to do with saving your electronics. In fact, the electronics in your device should be isolated from the ground, unless the device itself is damaged and has a ground fault. Any static electricity that builds up on the chassis should have no path to the electronics inside, aside from you providing the path yourself by touching something inside while servicing. Why, then, do so many people believe that a grounded circuit is necessary to protect their electronics? I think it’s because a Type 3 SPD, like a power strip style surge suppressor, requires the ground to properly function. The surge suppressor is designed to clamp transient voltage to ground, and without that ground, I believe they are nothing but an overpriced power strip. In summary, the ground itself provides no protection to your equipment, but the ground is required for your surge suppressor to work properly. If you don’t use any surge suppressor strips anyway, then having a ground verses not having one should make no difference with regard to protecting the equipment itself. If you have a house that lacks grounding, in addition to installing GFCI receptacles, I’d recommend that you install a whole-house surge suppressor at your panel or meter (type 1 or 2 SPD). These have much larger MOVs than any surge strip, and will also protect other electronics, like the components in your refrigerator, range, washer, LED lightbulbs, etc. One last thing. No surge suppressor will clamp a lightning strike. If lightning strikes your house, or anywhere else nearby, no MOV can arrest that kind of surge. A surge suppressor’s greatest benefit is in arresting the transient voltage that originates within your home, your neighbor’s home, or from the power company switching nearby. 80% of all transient voltages originate within your own home, mostly from inductive motors switching on and off. Your A/C is the greatest culprit, with your air handler, refrigerator, and washing machine fighting for second place. Never plug your computer or TV into a circuit that also has a window A/C unit on it. That really puts a lot of wear on the Type 4 SPD built into your computer’s power supply.

[@diydrivenGA]

Yeah I found a bootleg in my garage outlet when I went up upgrade the outlet to an industrial grade one for EV charging. Already been charging there for a bit so I'm pissed and also a bit concerned about how he tricked the inspector and wondering how many other outlets are like this.

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Yeah that's not good for sure. Unfortunately you would never know unless you purchased a ideal sure test circuit analyzer or pull each one out.

[@TheFTLTRAVELER]

Then why in equipment such as ranges and dryers do they have a bonding jumper between neutral and ground that you only take out if you have a 4 wire recep and plug.

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Well this is a great debate. Here is the code that sums it up 250.140.

[@sigcrazy7]

It is safe to use the neutral as the ground with a three-wire, 240v appliance because a 240v appliance that lacks a ground is not bonded to the rest of the building’s grounding system except at the panel. In other words, unlike a general purpose circuit, a range or dryer is a dedicated circuit. There are no other appliances/motors/etc on that circuit that, if they were to ground-fault, would energize the cabinet of any other appliance. That is why, In the event of a fault, it is safe to use the neutral wire to clear the fault of that single appliance. It IS possible, however, that a person could be shocked by the cabinet in a three-wire installation if the neutral wire became open (like in the panel), since the cabinet would now have 120v potential with no grounded or grounding conductor. This is why all newer installations have a dedicated grounding conductor with the cabinet not bonded to the grounded conductor (neutral). Good for you to recognize the need to remove the bonding jumper when a 240v circuit has a ground. Most appliances I encounter have the cabinet-to-neutral bond intact even though they have a four-prong receptacle. Installers see green wires and just land them all under the grounding screw with no concern for a correct installation. “Instructions!? We don’t need no stinkin’ instructions!!” The 2023 NEC requirement for GFCI breakers on 240v circuits 50a or less will put an end to incorrect appliance bonding because the breaker will immediately see the bond as a ground fault, which it essentially is. When more AHJs adopt this 240v GFCI requirement, there will be tons of service calls about why their breaker won’t reset with their brand new appliance.

[@diydrivenGA]

So how do you add anground then?

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

You would have to run it back to the panel to comply with code.

[@mikecrawford5331]

Why not fish a new ground from the outlet back to the panel?

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

If you have conduit or some sort of tubing then absolutely. Cannot be outside of the sheath

[@ACommenterOnYouTube]

2:40 The ONLY way to satisfy that tester, without using the actual Ground is to take the Neutral and jump it TO the ground lug on the outlet so that the tester see's voltage between the G (neutral wire) and H side and the second you pulled that socket out, i was like .... I WAS RIGHT !!!

[@matthewdbickel]

Can you help me understand why this is bad? I believe you, but I'd like to understand it from a more technical standpoint.

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Email me with your question

[@matthewdbickel]

@@MountaineerOutdoors why cant you answer me here? It’s inconvenient to email and I’m a busy guy. Plus if you answer here then everyone who is wondering this can know, not just someone who emailed you.

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Ok no problem ask away..

[@matthewdbickel]

@@MountaineerOutdoors Can you help me understand why this is bad? I believe you, but I'd like to understand it from a more technical standpoint.

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Per chat gpt Bootleg grounds are dangerous in a house because they create a false sense of safety without actually providing proper grounding protection. Here’s why they are hazardous: 1. **Electrocution Risk**: In the event of a fault or short circuit, a bootleg ground can allow current to flow through metal parts that are supposed to be grounded, such as appliance casings or plumbing fixtures. This can potentially electrify these surfaces, posing a severe risk of electrocution to anyone who touches them. 2. **Fire Hazard**: Improper grounding can increase the risk of electrical fires. Without a proper ground connection, faults or surges may not be directed safely to the ground, leading to overheating of wires, melting insulation, and potentially igniting a fire. 3. **Code Violation**: Electrical codes require proper grounding for safety reasons. Using bootleg grounds circumvents these safety standards and can lead to legal consequences, especially during inspections or when selling the property. 4. **Damage to Equipment**: Electrical appliances and devices rely on proper grounding to safely dissipate excess electrical energy. Improper grounding can cause damage to sensitive electronics or appliances, leading to costly repairs or replacements. In summary, bootleg grounds compromise the safety of electrical systems in a home by failing to provide the intended protection against electric shock and fire hazards. It’s essential to always ensure that electrical systems are installed and maintained according to proper safety standards and codes to protect both property and lives.

[@nickmccallum5077]

My entire house I just bought was this way and it fooled my inspector

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Gotta be careful check and double check

[@armandol1826]

The Fluke SureTest analyzer will not be fooled by a bootleg ground. While it is expensive at $300, it’s handy

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Now that's an amazing piece of equipment. I wish had that. It's pricy but it may be something to look into 🤔

[@armandol1826]

@@MountaineerOutdoors it’s made by Ideal. Bill from Sparky Channel shows it on his videos and I can’t recommend it enough. Definitely consider it

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

I will check it out on his channel. He's a great teacher one channel that I not only watch but recommend. Thank you for letting me know it's on his channel.

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

I bought one and I can tell you it's pretty amazing. Once I learn it gonna make a video. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

[@armandol1826]

@@MountaineerOutdoors please do and show how a regular one is fooled with a bootleg. You’ll get a lot of traction too, thanks for really doing it

[@simplytrolling6869]

I knew it before you ever removed the receptacle… let’s pray that this said “electrician” has never trained any help and hopefully he has lost his license.

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

I think that he saw my video, the homeowner said I made one.. He hasn't spoken to them or me since

[@williamking8033]

Dangerous AF!

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Definitely

[@savoirfaire8979]

*“Lectrician”*

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

😂 😂

[@johnh383]

cant you just label the outlet as NO mechanical ground ?

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

With a gfci you must certainly can. It's no equipment ground they have the stickers in the gfci boxes

[@johnh383]

@@MountaineerOutdoors Can you install a standard 3 into the 2 and just put the sticker on "no equipment ground "

[@johnh383]

@@MountaineerOutdoors Can you install a standard 3 into the 2 and just put the sticker on "no equipment ground "

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Can I ask why you keep asking me the same question? I already answered it I thought??

[@johnh383]

@@MountaineerOutdoors You assumed I was talking about a GFCI replacing the 2 prong. I was asking what was wrong with using a standard 3 prong non GFCI outlet for the 2 prong and just labelling it as un grounded.

[@mikeroberts4518]

U could have just put one gfi in and fed the receptacles down stream from that would have been protected u didnt have to put in all gfi receptacles unless the whole house was in this condition didnt make it really clear in the video about that so was the receptacles u puy in all in one room or did u have to do the whole house that way

[@randybeaumier]

That’s called a bootleg; illegal and dangerous

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

Definitely

[@beemerkon]

Something smells fishy, then out comes the electric screw driver.

[@MountaineerOutdoors]

😂 😂 😂 😂