LETS DEBATE: Trope Subversion Is Bad?

You drop spicey takes on the fantasy genre, I SMACK them down with the force of a thousand suns.
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[@tristanjansen2995]

SUPER HOT TAKE: saying bye to your friend with “love you buddy” is very underrated

[@billyalarie929]

SO SO SOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOS UNDERRATED

[@ellismartiskainen7729]

It's adorable!

[@mischarowe]

I read your comment before seeing that part in the video and honestly thought he was using it as a segue into that hot take, lol.

[@tristanjansen2995]

Mk. Rowe hahahahaha I wish

[@wasmiddelenreclame1582]

So underrated omg

[@MistbornTaylor]

Hot take: As a woman, I hate the way that a lot of authors who are women write their women characters. A lot of these characters are in YA books but I have also seen in other ranges these insufferable characters. Usually, they are overly aggressive, flat out rude, and sometimes explicitly abusive. The worst part about this is it's presented as female empowerment and not a massive character flaw. I cannot imagine a book being published (especially in YA) where a man hits his love interest and when she complains about it he says "Well maybe you need to expand your idea of how guys behave."

[@mischarowe]

Same.

[@user-ny1wo1vp9r]

Can you give an example?

[@gadaboutgriffon4446]

Agreed the double standard is tiresome.

[@MistbornTaylor]

Nil S the quote is from When Dimple Met Rishi but i do not like the way V.E. Schwab writes her characters. Especially Lila.

[@miaramck6746]

Agreed. I think people conflate strength and aggression, when actually aggression has roots in fear.

[@oswin5775]

I get way too confused in packed action scenes. Sometimes someone dies and I'm like, "do I even know this person? and where did the dinosaur come from?"

[@omarabdelkadereldarir7458]

i only feel like that in movies tbh

[@eduardoo31]

i NEVER know what's going on in packed action scenes. honestly i've just given up, like, i'll just read it and try to look out for deaths, but as for the rest, well...

[@irockmajorly]

Same The only one that portrayed action EXTREMELY well and held my attention has been first law, The Heroes in particular

[@runningcommentary2125]

Abercrombie is the best for action scenes. I've never read any better than his.

[@nasteho6614]

I do this weird thing where I surface read the action scenes and just try really hard to vividly imagine it then compare how it went in my head vs the book 🙃🙂🙃

[@SheWasOnlyEvie]

Daniel Greene: normalizing masculine platonic-friend love one “I love you buddy” at a time.

[@gypster2004]

It’s beautiful 😍

[@noraeld5020]

I love it

[@lindsay4254]

We stan

[@Helltamirre]

Whoever has problem with two men being close friends should probably re-asses their own sexuality. There is no problem with being attracted to men as a man. But... Just be honest with yourself, bruv.

[@knightcaelum0999]

More of this, more of this in general. Ladies, guys, ladies and guys, others w/guys and ladies. More good, solid, platonic relationships. We are too focused on people screwing. Relationships of friendship/companionship need more focus and fans need to hold off on trying to get everyone boning each other.

[@TheYannir]

"Mermaids are dangerous and they want to kill you." Meanwhile, there's a most docile and adorable manatee on the background.

[@ryanschaefer4847]

Honestly, this is why I enjoyed jk Rowling's interpretation. The painting in the prefects bathroom was a very common depiction. But Harry's adventure in the 2nd task threw that completely out of the window

[@ozymandias3456]

A bit late but it is theorized that it is the sightings of manatees that led to the myth of mermaids, i think even Christopher coloumbus commented on seeing mermaids

[@moriahboring6789]

manatees aren't mermaids, and if you go with legend context they are very different creatures, the legend of a creature doesn't mean that the animal they are based on is the same thing, because it's a different thing, I shouldn't have to explain

[@SirEriol]

Manatees alone make me want to solve climate change and believe in humanity's ability to selfless. Such beautiful creatures deserve no harm.

[@shifra1967]

I’ve seen two manatees fighting over a freshwater tap near a dock and it was so fcking cute

[@ti_sathiya]

Hey Daniel, an Indian here, since you wanted to know more on the "Indian mythology being adapted in the books" thing there are two main reasons why most Indian authors don't do it. Reason 1: *Skating on thin ice* : Everytime an author writes, the author needs to do it so perfectly. Otherwise the author would be in serious trouble in misrepresenting religion. Reason 2: *Different Variations* : Unlike most mythologies, Indian mythology does not have the same consistent set of events that takes place in the mythology. Different regions in India have completely different variation of the story that was passed down. So, it is quite tough to write based on one version. EDIT: There are authors who do it. But very few authors found their audience through writing on/about mythology. The most famous author being Amish. Just wanted to mention it here. Lots of love from India❤.

[@bruncla2303]

is it possible that big part of it is that indian mythology is still kinda alive through their religion? bcs norse, greek, or egypt mythology is something dead set in the past.

[@lazybookworm]

@@bruncla2303 I think this is a big part of it, the mythology is still incredibly important to so many people and while I would love to see stories based on it, I think there is a concern of writing things that may end up being offensive to people

[@angela_merkeI]

@@lazybookworm That's kinda sad. Ancient Greeks had tons of what would basically be fanfic/fantasy stories about their gods (Vergil, Ovid, Apollonios, etc.) and no one objected to it.

[@justinreid6718]

Wouldn't various versions of the mythology argue that there should be MORE writing about...since it offers copious source materials?

[@hellothere2464]

I personally would love to see more hindu-based fantasy novels because there’s so many interesting elements in hindu mythology. I love reading about Greek, Egyptian and other mythologies but for a religion as old and popular as Hinduism, I feel like there should be more stories (not old texts but newer stories) about or based on Hinduism

[@mishashmi381]

I actually like it when fantasy is inspired by real life. It's interesting to see these real world events and ideas through someone else's lens in a fantasy setting

[@justinreid6718]

@@ms.cellaneous4380 I don't think that's what we're talking about here, Britt. Not fantasy set in historic times, but rather inspired by. Such as Lord of the Rings and WW1 or the Skaa from Mistborn and racism in the American South. I'm with Mis Hashmi when it comes to liking these stories. Not only a new perspective, but mostly these are universal themes that still exist today and are prescient. Also...it's fantasy so it's enjoyable to imagine having a power like Alchemy to combat and stop plantation owners. Right?

[@lordofdarkness4204]

With magic and monsters in the mix

[@gokbay3057]

@@justinreid6718 Tolkien would be the first to tell you that the Lord of the Rings is not an allegory for WW1. He was building a British/English mythology.

[@alliew31]

I kind of like it, but I also miss the fantasy books that followed their own story. As people learn more about history, the worlds are starting to become more connected. Having elements of history (like slavery or a roman empire) can tell some nice commentary, but recreating a war with different names and dragons is kind of boring. I would much rather they do realistic fiction and tell the actual story through the eyes of a king or servant instead of pushing it into the fantasy genre.

[@a.e.barron2549]

@@gokbay3057 just because something is inspired by historical events doesn't automatically make it an allegory - an allegory has the aim of conveying some form of hidden meaning, which you're right in saying that Tolkien rejected that. It's fairly obvious tho that there is some form of influence WW1 had on LOTR

[@CJthedragon8]

Lol the phone call in the middle of the video! 😂

[@DanielGreeneReviews]

We had to talk about nerdy stuff!

[@HandofOmega]

Reminds me of the out-take in one of the Rush Hour movies, when Chris Tucker gets a call while filming a scene with Jackie Chan...Imagine being on the other end, and having your casual phone call immortalized forever like that! LOL

[@Giga-lemesh]

I thought it was a skit at first

[@calebsuydam2502]

I gave a like specifically for the phone call.

[@Supaawesomeification]

Remember when Eragon’s brother used a hammer as his primary weapon when fighting that war? Yeh. Hammer was dope

[@ItalianStallionBDM]

Roran stronghammer! His chapters were the best

[@holywaterbottle3175]

@@ItalianStallionBDM when i read the series when i was like 12 i used too skip forward too Rorans chapters since i found them so much more interesting.

[@psykedude]

Roran was absolutely the best part of Eragon

[@justingroth5152]

When I read the Eragon series I thought of Perrin of WOT every time Roran Stronghammer showed up on screen.

[@MrWhangdoodles]

It's been so long that I don't remember this character at all. 0.

[@annagorth2166]

Daniel: you shouldn’t pressure Autors into anything Also Daniel: I want a lance dammit! Why won’t they listen to me?

[@sharendavis9216]

Subverting a classic fantasy trope has, itself, become a trope. To the point that following a given trope could be more subversive.

[@sciranger6703]

I haven't found a single knight or knight-adjacent character who isn't a narcissistic coward or Leroy Jenkins in forever, even in direct adaptations where what sets up the moral is that they're as near to an ideal knight as you can get! Side eye at The Green Knight aside, it's an underused character type and I am grumpy about it.

[@thomasedwards6641]

That's what I feel with king Arthur and Robin Hood films they keep trying to do takes on the classic story and we haven't had just the classic story in decades.

[@frandraws1]

i'm pretty sure he's sending a cry for help through morse code with his eyelids at the start of the video

[@CJthedragon8]

NOW I HAVE TO LEARN MORRIS CODE!

[@Eshtian]

@@CJthedragon8 WHO'S MORRIS

[@I.M.Gifter]

Commentor: "There's too much action in fantasy." Shonen: "Come at me bro!"

[@23Lgirl]

shonen translate to young male not fantasy

[@AscendantStoic]

Action in written fantasy novels is different from a drawn manga, keeping track of a complex action scene in writing can be annoying if the writer isn't skilled in writing action scenes, keeping track of a drawn action scene in a shonen manga is much easier.

[@connorthornberg]

The most popular shonen in the world by a huge margin (One Piece) has a far, far more exposition and character interactions than fight scenes.

[@I.M.Gifter]

@@connorthornberg I am fully aware of this. One Piece is my favorite manga, hands down and I know all too well Oda's style of writing. Sometimes I wish he focused a little more the fighting, but I've come to appreciate why he doesn't and love when he chooses to. I was referring to shonen in general, specifically the stereotypical ones that even non-fans recognize, like DBZ. P.S. Just because it's the most popular doesn't mean it represents the mass majority of the sub-genre -- unfortunately. One Piece is a major outlier in this case.

[@I.M.Gifter]

@@AscendantStoic True, but that wasn't the point of the joke, nor do I believe that's the point of the comment in the video.

[@JRawlings14]

I would say for the HP7 take, that by staying with Harry's perspective the whole time and having the rest of the story be told to the characters, it emphasizes that Harry, Ron and Hermione are alone on their quests and they have to figure things out themselves. That's how I saw it anyway, and it worked for me.

[@brancellbooks]

I think it’d also be really jarring, to go five or six books following *just* Harry’s perspective (can’t remember if there were any non-Harry POVs in Book one) to suddenly following a completely different plotline. Edit: Exempting chapters at the beginning of some of the books that follow a different character, i.e. Vernon in Philosopher, Snape and Muggle Prime Minister in Half-Blood, etcetera. Once the narrative switches to Harry, it stays put.

[@JRawlings14]

@@brancellbooks Yeah exactly

[@scarletleader5420]

Yes! Also, one of the things I really like about the HP books, is that they get increasingly mature throughout the story, and taking the main characters out of school for the last book is really the perfect ending. As you said, they're on their own now. It's kind of the perfect metaphor for adulthood. Also, I don't know that it would have been THAT interesting to follow Ginny, Luna and Neville at that time. I love them, and it might be fun to imagine like, a chapter written about the DA resisting at Hogwarts, but they don't really drive the plot forward. It would have been strange just hanging on to the Hogwarts resistance when the actual mysteries were being uncovered by the Golden trio.

[@dawnschoonover662]

I don't think the pov should have switched from Harry to a more interesting plotline, I think JKR should have made the plotline better. There were a lot of things included in the final book that felt super weird to me, like JKR had a stack of info she thought was cool but hadn't worked into the story yet (oh if we only knew the extent of it at the time). Like the entire thing with going to Godric's Hollow, how it was a well known memorial that just hadn't come up yet in any conversation, or how Nagini was there. It was a lot of plot conveniences and weirdness.

[@janhavi1977]

@@scarletleader5420 Harry being an uninteresting character is so exaggerated by fans. He has just as much personality and depth as a lot of other characters, and kids of all ages were able to relate so much to him. He is far from the least interesting character, at least to me. The person also said in their post that we should have followed Neville, Luna, and Ginny for most of the book, and only caught up with the trio when they reached Hogwarts. That would have been so jarring. Not seeing your main characters for majority of the book, until the very end seems pretty ridiculous. And Voldemort's defeat would also have felt so unearned, because we would not have seen the trio's struggles and everything they went through to reach the point of defeating him. That's like if we stopped following Frodo and Sam after Fellowship of the Ring. And only caught up with them at the very end when they managed to destroy the Ring. The destruction of the Ring was so satisfying because we saw the journey Sam and Frodo went on to reach that point. Skipping over your main characters' struggles is kinda dumb and will not result in a very satsifying ending.

[@averyforeman5208]

The hot takes are becoming more aggressive and absolute on their stances. I love this opinionated community that has gathered around this opinionated person

[@nionashborn7626]

“Only a Sith deals in absolutes” *turns to the dark side*

[@Dennzer1]

@@nionashborn7626 That was a quick, but inevitable turn.

[@procrastinator99]

Are you cursing his sudden betrayal?

[@charlespeter5610]

REAL TALK: My Dad read most of the books to me and my brother as children and he would stop in *every* book and say "who edited this???" At least the first editions are *terribly* edited.

[@hoidtakesopioids]

i hate it when books are unpolished and I have to rephrase sentences as I read

[@charlespeter5610]

@@lukehashbarger9936 yeah, lol I forgot to mention the book I was talking about

[@nyelbaig]

My guess is, for the first at least, they had no clue it would sell as much as it did so they probably didn't run it through the best editors and stuff

[@fidlr2904]

Wait! People think Mistborn is GrimDark? Now that is a hot take...

[@eldergaming1218]

Very

[@alphasword5541]

Yeah I was so confused, the concept itself is kinda GrimDark but the way its presented doesn't really... do that?

[@runningcommentary2125]

@@alphasword5541 Yeah, the world would be a really depressing place to live, but the story itself is generally less heavy. If Sanderson wrote a book about everyday life in the Final Empire it would probably be one of the most miserable stories ever written.

[@fidlr2904]

@@alphasword5541 Well i personally has been pretty irritated of the term or the way the genre has been used as of late. If we look at where the term "GrimDark" comes from, it is Warhammer 40K. Where everything is super pulpy, dystopian, gritty bleak, dark, violent and everyone seems kindda shitty. But it is taking to almost ridicolous levels. That dosen't seem to mash up with something like Mistborn. Sure it is kindda dystopian, bleak and have some violence. But it is not near the level of 40K If we then look at the other usual suspects like, George R.R Martin, Joe Abercrombie, Glenn Cook and Mark Lawrence, to name a few. They too are bleak, dystopian, violent...etc. but where they differ from Mistborn, and has more in common with W40K is in the characters...they are shitty. You have your, Glokta, Cersei, Jorg, Jamie Lannister, The Black Company as a whole, that under normal instances are rather indistinguishable from your "typical" villains. And Mistborn just dosen't have characters where it makes you in doubt about whether or not you are dealing with the "protagonist" or the "villain" if you get me. And to me at least, that is a key requirement for GrimDark

[@LiteratureScienceAlliance]

@@fidlr2904 I agree when I think of GrimDark the setting matters but I need very grey characters to complete the aesthetic

[@HPirate91]

Daniel: "Assassin fantasy should be written as master and apprentice and not anything beyond that. The idea of a school of assassins is kind of self-defeating." Me: "But what about ninjas?!" Daniel: "Unless for some reason it's ninjas."

[@Jmlisheid]

I was fully prepared to be ripped apart, and you didn't let me down! I stand strongly behind what I said, but I also know it's something a lot of, if not most, people would disagree with. Also, you just moved away from my city (!), so now the whole dancing together under the moonlight is going to be a little trickier

[@Simmi_]

I agree though. People can read in whatever order they want, but even if an author tells me to read their works in a certain order, I'll still follow publication order, it's just something I HAVE to do.

[@emosongsandreadalongs]

I always say, when in doubt go with publication order. My friend and I are reading through all of Stephen King's books and discussing them on my channel. I only bring it up because you specifically mentioned King. Sorry if this seems like spamming. kzbin.info/www/bejne/sF6olqSIeq6pqpI

[@octo448]

My issue with publication order is, assuming the author hasn't started to randomly suck, it means you start with the worst stuff they've ever published and you have to swallow it like a bitter pill in order to get to the "good stuff". For a crossover example, I'd point to Dresden. For me, Storm Front isn't worth it's own second half, much less a second read, but I'm promised by everyone with eyes or ears and a pulse that "it'll get better!" in a few books. With a series like Dresden, there is no getting around reading the first half, but if they were independent novels, I could give him a much more fair shake by starting in the middle.

[@TheEickert]

I'll dance with you under the moonlight! In between falsas and moonwalks we can discuss the ideal ordering of the Foundation series.

[@AJPzaworld]

Aw, but I love Harry's dialogue! It's cute how dorky and sarcastic he is, and it adds to the charm of the series.

[@janhavi1977]

Yes! And he's so sassy not just in his dialogue, but in his thoughts as well! It's like his personality exists in the narration as well as his dialogue! The world of Harry Potter and the side characters definitely contributed to the series success, but I think a lot of it was also because of how relatable the main character was. He was likeable without being a Mary Sue, and I don't think Rowling gets enough credit for the main character she crafted. Not exactly easy to write a Chosen One who isn't a special snowflake or a Mary Sue, lol.

[@briansmoot8234]

@@janhavi1977 I think they meant Harry Dresden but I could be wrong-

[@davemorus6135]

A lance? I could get behind that. Perhaps one that is good at slaying dragons. Yes, a lance that is specially designed for slaying dragons. I wonder what one would call such a thing? XD

[@a.spirit8408]

A Dragonlasso! Ok, I said that as a joke, but now I really want a Dragonlasso series by Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weiss

[@mrblooper1994]

Idk a dragon lancer?

[@charmishing]

Scalespear!

[@adamnyerges1848]

Big Lizard Death Stabby.

[@a_blitz]

How about lizard stick

[@sethtopper700]

“The Iliad” is a great example of a violent action packed story that is full of nuance and character. Plus the epic poem has many fantasy elements, specifically the Greek gods warring and manipulating the human interactions on the battlefield.

[@zechariahbryan1568]

yeah homer's easily in my top 10 modern fantasy authors

[@MagusMarquillin]

@@zechariahbryan1568 So is your classic fantasy exclusive to Gilgamesh? Maybe some cave paintings? It'd make for a difficult top ten.

[@jonathonwhitington402]

@@zechariahbryan1568 modern? Wow.

[@zechariahbryan1568]

@@MagusMarquillin Well whoever wrote genesis is also on the list

[@zechariahbryan1568]

And the code of hammurabi might not be considered fantasy by most people but i think it bends genre and style pretty innovatively for the time

[@AntoineBandele]

Totally agree about cannon fodder in Avatar!

[@matthewtaylor196]

Red-rag to a Mythology nerd here Daniel, but the monster mermaids you are talking about are largely European in origin and from the last few centuries, but the concept of a mermaid is far far older, in fact the first stories about mermaids comes from Assyria and basically had a beautiful woman turn into one because she tried to turn into a fish but the water refused to conceal her beauty. They were also largely depicted as protective guardians not monsters in some cultures at the time to :D. So sexy mermaid has ancient lore to...though the earliest images of her were far more....fishy.

[@nviz47]

Could you link us something about this on here? :))) If not no worries

[@BirdMorphingOne]

Or the Scottish seal women.

[@matthewtaylor196]

@@nviz47 Sure :), so my reply was about Atargatis and Hadad (she's related to Astarte and later Aphrodite). Most the stuff I have read comes from books, but I can link a couple online articles if that interests you? www.britannica.com/topic/Atargatis enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/101563 Her earliest depictions on coins were a fish with the head and arms of a woman, later stuff can have her as a woman or as a woman with a fishes tail.

[@danielsjohnson]

Matthew Taylor when you said the earliest images were more fishy it sounded like you were talking about nagas.

[@natesmith6871]

Hot take: we need more stories where the adventurer comes home and find their homes foreclosed because they missed a whole year of payments.

[@sciranger6703]

Or at the very least, they've been declared dead and their property is being auctioned or willed off. (And their relatives are stealing their spoons.)

[@Zdenek1023]

@@sciranger6703 that reminds of a British writer, but I can't put my ring on it.

[@Pillzpop]

Isn’t that what happened at the end of The Hobbit?

[@sciranger6703]

@@Pillzpop Yup! :D

[@judeconnor-macintyre9874]

Also there should be a sequel of books to that story which is considered to be some of the greatest stories of all time and are made into movies that win all the awards and money.

[@Law-of-EnTropy]

23:45, this. I've always hated Assassin schools. The logic itself of having a school of assassins somewhere in civilization is bonkers. An underbelly? Fine. But a school of them? Wow. And the fact that an institution is breeding assassins defeats the purpose of making assassins a valuable asset to have. A character cannot powerplay with assassins if he knows, somewhere in the city, are hundred or more assassins hired by his opponents. It's just pure stupid. The master-apprentice route is indeed the right way to go, if not the only sensible way there is. Having a school teaching kids about how to kill people isn't as believable as a master assassin teaching an apprentice through examples and immersion to the job. There is more danger, more risk, and there is more weight for development in that rather than going to school to learn how to stabby-stab a poisoned shiv. Edit: Originally, "ninjutsu" is an espionage martial art in Japan taught by underground schools/dojos. I'm not actually entirely sure about that, but the pop culture of Japan completely normalized the idea of training spies with schools/dojos since that's how all martial arts are taught. The difference of ninjas with assassins is, historically, assassins were a group of hired mercenaries in the middle east (Hashashin is what they are called, if I remember correctly), and they don't teach you how to kill. You join them because you know how to kill. The only thing they teach are the methods, which, even before they started labeling them as "assassins", is through poison, a common method since the ancient times. And if not, tactical ambushed when it's least expected (hence assassins killing someone in their sleep are common depictions).

[@angela_merkeI]

Plus, the teachers and pupils would know each other and know the identities, weaknesses, querks, etc. of everyone. That would also severly weaken the purpose of hiring an assassin imo.

[@robertblume2951]

The hashashin was not a mercenary. He was a trained jihadi. They were basically the Taliban of the crusades/mongol invasion ers.

[@Law-of-EnTropy]

@@robertblume2951 I've read some history about them that they were hired on occasions to kill higher officials.

[@robertblume2951]

@@Law-of-EnTropy the Taliban took money from us to fight the Russians. That didn't make them mercenaries.

[@Law-of-EnTropy]

@@robertblume2951 no, I meant, they were actually also hired to assassinate people. Hired is the word I'm trying to make a point off of this.

[@SereneDancer]

I could see Ron and Hermione breaking up and then coming back together after maturing on their own for a bit.

[@loredragonwrites7673]

In my book, each of the 3 main characters use weapons other than swords. We got magic hammers, rope darts, and glaives. Swords are sick, but too many swords makes you sick.

[@atharvadeshpande4749]

Haha! The last line was a Good one, cheesey but good.

[@alaskarii007]

ha, in a fantasy story i was working on i had this big idea inspired by the four horsemen of the apocalypse where there were the four 'Oatharms' which are magical polearm weapons. a spear, a axe, a scythe, and a hammer, each one binding the user to a strict code.

[@shifra1967]

I want a cool fantasy sword 😫

[@MrWhangdoodles]

@@alaskarii007 So Death gets a scythe, otherwise you'd piss people off. Axe for Hunger, spear for Pestilence and a hammer for Wrath? Oooh, so they pick up a weapon and, if they fit it well enough they become their mantle or something like that?

[@jazzpunkjerman]

Glad he’s keeping track of which debate we’re up to

[@PsychologyandChillwMichi]

As a writer, i can say publication order is not the golden standard. Writers write books out of order all the time. But also, i would not care what order people read my books but im making them purposefully to be read as standalone. Sooooo

[@BirdMorphingOne]

Do you have a book published? What’s it called? 😃

[@PsychologyandChillwMichi]

@@BirdMorphingOne I am not yet published, but the first book will be ready for beta's this summer. I'm writing the series intentionally so that each book can be read in any order, without the context of the other books. I'm writing it in chronological order, but that is just because I have to so that I make sure the order of events don't get mixed up in my mind lol

[@immersedinpages3712]

when Daniel Greene said "Love you buddy, talk to you soon," my heart just melted

[@jackinthebox1993]

These takes have gotten much more diverse and interesting! 📚 I love the discussion happening on this channel. It's like a fantasy Reddit for KZbin, and I love it

[@PsychologyandChillwMichi]

3:10- i cannot disagree more- i think thats one of the best parts of writing books, and i dont think ASOIF is too on-the-nose about history

[@sharendavis9216]

I don't think it is either. It was inspired by the War of the Roses, but halfway through the first book it already starts to diverge to the point that it has little to no connection by Clash.

[@dawnschoonover662]

Of all the examples they could have used, they used ASOIF. Is it inspired by history? Yes, but a wide range of events not just War of the Roses and by calling that out it definitely made me think that the only reference they got was War of the Roses, just missed out on literally every other part of history being alluded to. Plus ASOIF has so many other plotlines going on outside of Stark vs Lannister, that the War of the Roses comparison just doesn't even apply to 1/2 or 2/3 of the story.

[@adrianbundy3249]

You know the sad thing? I am a big fan of history, but not those chapters of history about those kingdoms, just not interesting to me. Thus, I never even remotely care that ASOIAF borrowed from them, and I am not even more interested in that history knowing it was adopted. Besides, what is 'too on the nose' in this context anyway? Being 1 to 1 predictable narratives? I haven't seen one yet. Being unable to have their own, somewhat separate moral teachings, and going beyond what happened in real life, to do something interesting? No, we have that too. Simply having similarities isn't me being smacked on the nose with something. And being too on the nose, I think is about moral 'this is right', 'this is wrong', 'do not do this', etc sorts of things, that readers are to be shamed into or other sorts of things, where you cannot avoid it. Hence, 'too on the nose'. But history in these things, is the setting. How can the setting be too on the nose? It's a criticism I just don't get.

[@Nemo37K]

Howdy Daniel, thanks for featuring me! I guess my take was somewhat lukewarm, all things considered. You are good my dude, you don't need to review the literal hundreds of hours of content you've posted. This comment was motivated in part by that recent discussion of least popular tropes, but its a problem I've had with criticism at large for a while. In the interest of full disclosure, I went to film school and I'm an aspiring filmmaker so I see a lot more criticism for films so you were on the money with that. But I've noticed this issue increasing in online criticism on booktube recently; it's also prevalent on Goodreads at times, as well as the Anime community where it's really bad. I think the fact that we have TV Tropes and the democratization of storytelling pedagogy is changing how we criticize texts because the audience is privy to how stories are constructed. But no need to worry yourself, I comment on your videos regularly because I like your criticism. It's the type of criticism I'd like to see more of. Cheers

[@TheMusicNGamesStudio]

I think the reason for the romantic couples staying together for ever is that we do get invested in them and learning that they did not last after the story ended tends to upset a lot of people, (see the backlash JKR got when she said Ron and Hermione needed counseling) even if those things are more realistic and have nothing inherently bad about them (relationships ending is nothing bad by it self and can often be healthy and good). But in writers are often very attached to their characters and want them to be happy once the story is concluded and therefor shy away from writing anything that isn't their idea of an idealized romantic ending. (finding the one person you want to stay with for ever) and stories who doesn't do this tend to feel bittersweet. I feel like I rambled but maybe I got my point across

[@TheAlmightyPillock]

Hot Take: China Miéville's series of Perdido Street Station, The Scar, and Iron Council, are better when read in reverse order. I did this by accident when my sister bought me Iron Council first. This meant each book would follow their own story but give me glimpses into the past, naming characters who were dead or referencing wars from years ago that I as a reader, now desperately want to know about. I would then go to that book, finding out what happened in the past and who these people were. This was one of the greatest bits of storytelling I had experienced in a long time, I thought it was literary genius. Yet it turns out I just read it wrong. So this is my hot take, more authors should write books in reverse order, going backwards in time. I'm not sure if this would work with a first person narrative, or even books that directly follow a group of characters, but for a set of books all set in the same world, it could be amazing.

[@dancingintherain111]

My "hot take" in response to your hot take: mermaids aren't monsters. You're thinking of sirens. Sirens are half-fish people (sometimes half bird people) who lure sailors down to the deep with their song. Mermaids are traditionally your more friendly Ariel-types. Though i do agree we just need more fish-people in fantasy overall, whether that be sirens or mermaids or cthulhu-kraken eldritch horrors.

[@ChristmasLore]

He's been corrected many times on this, yet does not seem to process it, somehow....

[@ChristmasLore]

The Mere People in Harry Potter are astonishingly scary and can be related to the more ancient "siren" persona in mythology.

[@tomasxfranco]

I think the greek mythology story is that some sirens (mermaids) were turned into harpies (bird sirens) as a punishment. From wikipedia: Sirens were believed to look like a combination of women and birds in various different forms. In early Greek art, they were represented as birds with large women's heads, bird feathers and scaly feet. Later, they were represented as female figures with the legs of birds, with or without wings, playing a variety of musical instruments, especially harps and lyres. The seventh-century Anglo-Latin catalogue Liber Monstrorum says that Sirens were women from their heads to their navels, and instead of legs they had fish tails.[7] The tenth-century Byzantine encyclopedia Suda says that from their chests up, Sirens had the form of sparrows, and below they were women or, alternatively, that they were little birds with women's faces.[8] By the Middle Ages, the figure of the Siren had transformed into the enduring mermaid figure.

[@blazekitsune1732]

Sirens are birds mermaids are fish do some research

[@itsgonnabeanaurfromme]

The amount of cocksure attitude displayed by people regarding the definition of an imaginary creature is interesting.

[@DarkShotShred]

For the relationship hot take: see what happened with the end of How I Met Your Mother. One of MANY things that fans criticise about that show's ending is that they broke up Robin and Barney in exactly the way you described, with them realising it just didn't work and respectfully going their own way. And that wasn't even fantasy, where there's an even stronger expectation of a "fairytale" ending. I agree with the hot take, but it's so risky to do that, especially in an epilogue to a series like the Harry Potter one, that I just can't imagine choosing to do it. During the story, sure, but not AFTER the ending.

[@mckennamclaws146]

I think the problem with HIMYM break up was that the entire last season was their wedding, making it pretty jarring. And then she gets back with Ted, which we all knew didn't work. I really would like to see the breakups more often.

[@DarkShotShred]

@@mckennamclaws146 Absolutely same for me, I think breakups that are more natural and even "anti-climactic" should be way more common in stories - particularly epic fantasy or sci-fi stories that have like, 87 books to tell those stories in. But yes the HIMYM breakup issue was because they wrote the finale at the start and then didn't adjust it to account for all the other seasons of character development they'd had.

[@resir9807]

Hey Daniel! When will we be hearing more about your own book? That's what interests me most.

[@DanielGreeneReviews]

Soon... maybe. Life is insane right now.

[@resir9807]

@@DanielGreeneReviews Oh yeah. Really enjoyed your political video on black injustice, by the way. I think you handled the topic very well and I think you have the right philosophy when it comes to this type of discourse.

[@Lothiril]

Regarding the last hot take in the video: I think the relationships that for example Ron and Hermione have is not entirely unjustified, because they've been through a lot together and these kind of experiences (that most of us probably don't have something to compare to) makes their bond very strong. Having someone like that at your side who's been with you through very dark times - I think that makes a difference, and at last for me it's a good enough explanation why these relationships could hold for so long.

[@jonathonwhitington402]

My hot take is that Chewie went out like a badass and that's exactly how I wanted him to go out. He sacrificed himself to save a LOT of innocent people at the end of Vector Prime. He didn't go out in a huge one-on-one fight to the death, but his death was all the more impactfull for it.

[@rupertg3765]

Re: Hindu and Indian mythologies. IMHO, Hinduism is a living religion with a tradition stepped in stores and storytelling. As an author, using the tales and mythologies of a living religion is an active minefield where you absolutely will offend someone. A lot like drawing the icon/image of the prophet Muhammad in Islam. I highly recommend watching Overly Sarcastic Productions for a much more articulate argument filled with context and fantastic animations.

[@ajuc005]

So is Christianity yet fantasy uses angels, devils, demons, etc. all the time. And some christians argued against that, even calling playing D&D or reading Harry Potter - satanism (I was in catholic school and I had my teacher gave us the talk about the dangers of Harry Potter, Metallica etc :) ). We (rightly) ridicule them, and that should also be the response if any other religion complains. Religions don't have monopoly on bullshit.

[@oilikaekoile]

Ajuć 00 angels, demons, Saints, etc aren’t at the core of Christianity. Most “religious” mythological things used in fantasy are shared across multiple religions.

[@Lorkisen]

@@oilikaekoile Yes, but no one is afraid of being attacked by Christians or Jews for using the mythology in art.

[@robertblume2951]

Western writers literally make fun of and demean the Christian God on a regular basis and demonize the entire institution of the church.

[@Lorkisen]

@@robertblume2951 In Norway a group is labelled a hate group for simply reading the translated Quran in public...

[@Simmi_]

I'm pretty sure the lack of Indian Mythology in fantasy by non-Indian authors is because it's still alive and millions of people follow it. Here in India, religion is a very sensitive subject and just characterizing a mythological figure in a certain way could be taken as disrespecting the religion. As for Indian authors, every fantasy book I've read by them is inspired by mythology in some way. I don't read a lot of Indian fantasy books even though I'm Indian BECAUSE all I've read so far is mythology-inspired. Amish, a seemingly popular author here, has series after series which are just reimaginings of certain myths or lives of mythological figures, so I don't know what the person is talking about there.

[@bhagawath9026]

Exactly what I was thinking. Almost every fantasy novel by an Indian writer seems to be heavily inspired by Indian mythology. In fact it's difficult to find one that's entirely original and disregards the temptation of the mythology.

[@Simmi_]

@@bhagawath9026 agreed. And they're so scared of offending people (a valid concern given people's attitude towards religion here) that they don't try something new. In fact, they even ignore the negative traits of the characters from the original myths because people can't seem to handle the fact that the they weren't perfect.

[@bhagawath9026]

@@Simmi_ That's a good point. Maybe that's how these stories that probably started as cautionary tales reached mythological status and got so deeply ingrained with the identity of Hindu religion. If we can't dissect the faults and strengths of the characters we lose the opportunity to learn from them. If they're deified beyond human criticism all of their wrongdoings can be justified and also blindly followed.

[@FantaseaFruitcake]

Very true. Many Indian novels have been influenced by mythology in someway, maybe bc unlike the western mythologies, Indian mythology still has a significantly large role in the lives of most Indians today. Although I have to add that Indian mythology as a whole is extremely diverse and complex. Hindu Mythology alone is so diverse, so when we talk about Indian mythology we have to consider the regional diversity and how the culture of different parts of India have influenced it's mythology, and this is excluding tribal mythology and stories (because let's face it Indian tribal mythology is extremely vast and rich in of itself) so most of the times that people have attempted to use Indian mythology in fantasy there's a lot of misrepresentation and the risk of offending people is extremely high but I do think it can be done.

[@Simmi_]

@@FantaseaFruitcake definitely. Hindu mythology in itself if very vast and like any mythology, adding the fact that it's one of the oldest and was passed down orally through generations before it was ever written down, it has variations. Risks of getting something wrong and offending someone in the process are very high. If we start looking into Indian mythology as a whole and not just Hindu mythology...well let's just say I can't fathom how you'd even put that amount of information together, let alone building a story around it.

[@taragonleaf8005]

Hot take: I don't need the character to be my race, religion, sex for me to identify with them. I've been reading books about young white men for my whole life and it doesn't bother me. I've been reading books about women. I've only ever read one book ever where any character had the same religion as myself. I don't care, give me a good story, representing my narrow demographic isn't important.

[@steinistein8611]

It's the first time I read someone else saying this, but 100% agree. While I understand that people want more variety for representation which is a very valid reason, I don't see why you couldn't identify with someone who's a different gender or religion. We're all humans after all and I like you I can relate to you.

[@oliverschoneck7750]

100% agree else I wouldnt enjoy Tamora Pierces books as much as I do.

[@autisonm]

Is it weird to say that even as a white male I've never really identified with a character and have really only sympathized/empathized with a character?

[@taragonleaf8005]

@@autisonm I've identified more whites at times than blacks. I have more in common with most white amercians that I do with non-Americans. I remember people asking me if I liked Black Panther because most of everyone was Black. Dude, most of everyone in that movie was from a fictional African country, but I'm supposed to identify with them because our skill is a similar color? Our life experiences are completely different. Black Middle Class American vs Black Wealthy African Royalty. No comparison.

[@teehee-yn3jh]

Faxx

[@zollieberdy4405]

At least you kept the most important room in your suitcase. I'm trying to write a book based strongly on ancient India. It's got me so confused.

[@NasirUddinShawon619]

Well Well Well, finally someone is making something about my place.

[@mikilmichaeljoshi2387]

@@NasirUddinShawon619 MINE TOO. Where in India?

[@poporopo913]

If you start feeling overwhelmed, something that helps me is to pick one or two points I feel really inspired by and use them to ground myself. I’ll research them, and topics around them, and then go further out, filling in the blanks along the way. As time goes on I’ll keep a casual list of topics that I want to dig into deeper, then I look for patterns.

[@NasirUddinShawon619]

@@mikilmichaeljoshi2387 Kolkata but right now I'm in Bangladesh.

[@TheEnthraller]

Amish has written 1 trilogy on Shiva and is in middle of Rama books

[@drewfallon4839]

I might sound ignorant, which I probably am, but isn’t “Indian mythology” just Hinduism? In the case of Greek or Norse mythology, they were once religions, but they’ve now died out and we can use that material to write cool and interesting stories using a mythos that lots of people are already familiar with. But writing a Percy Jackson-esque series based on a religion that people believe and follow just seems wrong to me.

[@highlevelwizard9788]

Both of the mythological traditions you're referring to and their corresponding tales were written (or conceived) during the time when those were still widespread faiths; the Iliad is an ancient equivalent of epic fantasy featuring gods that were believed to exist at the time, interacting with invented hero characters, in a war that may have been invented for the story as well, and it was written in the 8th century BC, which is still several hundred years before the Romans, who continued to worship versions of those same gods a long while. It's my opinion that nothing should be off limits. There are also plenty of people who follow old Nordic and Hellenic gods today. If someone is hurt by an exploration, reference, or fantasy rendering of their chosen or inherited faith, that's their own fault. Also, lifting Hindu concepts for fantasy has already been done, and Morrowind lore is a good example of it being done fairly well, specifically in reference to Vivec and his antics.

[@boboblacksheep5003]

You're right. Hinduism is a living breathing religion. In fact, one of the Hindu Gods is a real legal entity, who can have legal custody of land, as funny as it sounds. Lord Rama was involved in a decades-long legal battle for land which came to a conclusion just last year. Also, if you're interested, you should look up the religions, cultures and folklore India has, apart from Hindu Mythology. There's a lot of stuff to build lore around without ever making it explicit.

[@vallinorean-akl]

Drew never fear being ignorant. We all are. Of most things. Indian Mythology in terms of volume and preponderance is mostly Hinduism but also includes Buddhism (Read the Buddha Series by Osamu Teszuka or even Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny, both multiple award winning works by non-Indians). Your point though on living religions for modern writing is very accurate but almost every single Indian fantasy writer does write about Hindu Mythology. There is a long cultural and isolationist rationale behind it. One of the most fascinating adaptations of Hindu mythology I had never expected is there sheer volume of comics like Ramayan 3392 AD or Ravana or Ravanayan. I wouldnt recommend most Indian fantasy works based on Indian Mythology like Amish or Aswin Sanghi myself, but that may be because of how limited a fantasy and sci-fi market Indian really is that our authors are still at a nascent stage.

[@DomesticatedGoth]

There's an increasing number of people who are trying to revive, or at least recreate for the modern world, European polytheist religions. People have been trying to bring back Druids, for example since the 18thC. It's certainly nowhere near the scale of Hinduism, but it is a rapidly growing phenomenon

[@duzcat9205]

Nothing's ever off the table. Defeats the purpose of being a writer. Besides, look at how much Christian mythology is used lol.

[@scottharris5264]

Joe Abercrombie has a great deal of exposition and character development in his fight scenes. He even includes some great sarcastic humor.

[@zechariahbryan1568]

his fight scenes really are all fun and games until the bloody 9 comes out and sets about the good work of putting the whole planet back to the mud

[@kajetan9906]

About mythologies not incluede in fantasy, I think that slavic mythology is under represented. I can't really think of anything else than The Witcher

[@ADADEL1]

American God's maybe?

[@a_blitz]

@@ADADEL1 and even there it still doesnt have alot of it.

[@bagman4145]

The problem with Slavic mythology is that it's not as well documented as Norse or Greek mythology. Us Slavs were a little behind the curve in terms of writing things down, so a lot of stories were lost to history. And since it was christian missionaries who brought written language to Eastern Europe, they started repressing the original pagan Slavic myths. It's sort of hard to track down how the individual gods were related to each other, what they did or what exactly their names were. Also, I'd like to see more Celtic influence. Fantasy writers often borrow Fairy lore from the Celts, but where's my Horned God and Morrígan?

[@kajetan9906]

Isn't Morrigan from Dragon Age basedn on celtic mythology?

[@robertblume2951]

Firebird by Mercedes Lackey. Rusulka and Chernobog by C. J. Cherryh. There is also a series Murphy complains about being too atmospheric I can't remember the name of.

[@landonhagan450]

Publication order might not be the only way to read a series but it’s almost always the best.

[@thatginger8897]

Hot take: Szeth is the most interesting/dynamic character in stormlight archive, with his internal struggle between the law, honor, and doing what is right. Having a (somewhat) central character whose views are based around following the law, and the honor in doing that, is something that I haven’t really seen anywhere else and makes him a very unique and special character.

[@scepta101]

This is an interesting take. I would personally disagree strongly that he is the MOST interesting character, but I do find him very compelling so far (I have not read Rhythm of War btw) and I agree that his focus on law and honor is unique and fascinating

[@wilhelmlouw4874]

Hey Daniel, Wanted to let you know and thank you. I've been reading fantasy since I was 5 when my granddad gave me LotR for Christmas. I am 37 now. I spent my whole life as part of the fandom and as a result I kind of lost interest in the community a long time ago. While I kept reading religiously, I as religiously pulled away from the community. It became, in my opinion, a prissy, entitled group that were more interested in telling new members why they weren't good enough, rather than welcoming them in. Then I found your channel and Merphy Napier's. And you guys have opened up the world for me again. I don't always agree with either of your opinions (although I quite often do), but what the two of you have done is show me that the real fandom has changed. The entitlement that "chased" me away may still be there, but your communities are SO MUCH what I remember from my youth. So thank you for your work. Please keep it up.

[@justingroth5152]

On the Stars Wars comment, I used to be a construction welder. When we would go into an old industrial system it was so much more satisfying to wreck out the old and start fresh. Even if we utilized similar design because it was a good idea but still better to wreck it all out and start over.

[@TheThreeBookshelves]

I’m fully on the reading in publication order train, except in circumstances where there are strong reasons for doing otherwise (i.e. reading A Feast for Crows and A Dance With Dragons concurrently to recombine the split POVs, or when authors recommend it of their own works for a better reading experience), or on re-reads. After having a huge plot twist for the main series spoiled for me by reading the prequel first, when it was published and meant to be read last, taught me to err on the side of publication order so you get the story in the right order.

[@michaellape154]

Man I f*****g love what you do. I can see that you give what your fans ask for, but you don’t change you mind based on the popularity of an idea but rather the merit you perceive a take or view maintains. I find this wonderful because in this way our criticisms can encourage the growth of new habits without burning the past for fuel. Your the best my dude, keep it up!

[@ipodjockey2432]

Your "rahgufugulhuhuhul" fantasy name had me actually laughing out loud. Great work.

[@FalkaRiannon]

"I want more polearms in fantasy" - everyone who has read older editions of DnD: "Oh shut up Gary."

[@andrewlance3898]

You aren't doing fantasy right until you can tell a glaive from a guisarme

[@monywrmtailpadfotprngs6985]

As a writer, I cringed every other word during Twilight. As a reader, it’s my guilty pleasure book. In conclusion; Writer reading Twilight: it’s torture! Reader reading Twilight: *laughing*

[@ChristmasLore]

As a reader: couldn't finish first chapter. Same for Sockie Stackhouse, and hundreds of (especially) what I call "female YA". So poorly written. You don't have to be an author to appreciate good prose, that's so elitist.

[@aztec8874]

Daniel: "So the era 2 setting isn't quite- . . . oh hi Max"

[@gibbcharron3469]

The interesting thing about the whole Indian Mythology thing is that it actually seems to be included more often in Sci-fi stories than in Fantasy, at least based on my own reading (though I do tend to read a lot of Science Fiction anthologies whereas most of my Fantasy consumption comes in novel format, so I may be a bit biased because I just run across a lot more Sci-fi stories than Fantasy and thus may encounter a wider variety of stories as a result).

[@HandofOmega]

Yay, Daniel liking my HT, really made my day, haha (esp as I saw it right before heading into work)! I'm not really into the HP fandom, so I don't know if that's something the community thinks or not, it's just how I felt ever since reading the final book. As to the grammar errors, I just noticed a couple of spots that were oddly worded...then, when discussing the book with a friend, he cited those *exact same passages*, which made me think that it wasn't just me, then...

[@darkportents9835]

25:39 yes. show messy relationships and ones that fail.

[@aidans1383]

when youre in high school and still haven't learned about the war of the roses so ASOIAF is still brand new to you :)

[@elisa_740]

I never thought about the assassin's schoold thing, and now I'm in love with it

[@maxlloydwilliams8816]

In regards to the Star Wars EU, most of the absurd stuff that articles pick out was never Canon with to begin with. And then these articles will then make out some of the stuff that was actually Canon and was executed extremely well, to silly bullet points and disregard all context. It's like saying that Gandalf died by falling down a massive hole whilst fighting a massive fire demon that used to ride dragons only to come back for no explainable reason. In both instances what happens is so much interesting and well explored due to being executed perfectly but by removing context you don't get that much-needed context. And to provide context for Chewbacca dying, it occurred after a period of Star Wars novels produced by Bantam where no main characters died, and many of the stories were extremely repetitive. Del Rey then took over the license and wanted to change the status quo of Star Wars novels with a much darker series. They did this through the New Jedi Order which was an amazing, long-running, brutal series with harsh consequences on the universe. In the first novel, they wanted to prove that they weren't messing about and show the threat of the Vong (the overarching enemy of the series) by killing off the main character. Originally, they intended to kill Luke, which would've ended his arc perfectly, but George Lucas didn't allow it. Lucas never considered the EU Canon, it was only Lucasfilm marketing that made it out to be, but during the early EU, he had control over some of the major events. He knew that killing Luke would limit the number of new people that would be able to experience the EU and forbode it, instead forcing them to kill Chewbacca. When it did happen it was both epic, and a worthy end for Chewie, and it had consequences over the entire series, with characters still feeling the results of it many books later. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that Disney could keep the EU. If they wanted to make new films with the original cast they were going to need to overwrite it, but people often forget that in Lucas's original sequel plans he was going to do exactly the same. The best-case scenario that could've happened for the fans would be to continue both Canons, much like Marvel Comics' multiple universes. I know this was extremely long-winded, and if you have read it I hope you understand what I'm trying to say, but don't listen to articles and other things who try to slander the EU for things that aren't Canon and remove all context for those that are. The other major misconception is the aspect of contradictions. For the most part, the EU was very solidly made and had a few major holes. That is if you only look at the novels, comics, games etc... The problem arises whenever George Lucas gets involved. The Prequel trilogy was the first of these events and was the least harmful. This was due to that era being off-limits to authors so the only thing that was contradicted was sentences and paragraphs in the early book that had some wrong dates and events. The big thing that led to the mess was The Clone Wars show from 2008. They decided that this show was to be considered Canon to the EU, which led to everything indicate that had already been set up in The Clone Wars era be ruined. Character histories were overruled, intricate lore was ruined, timelines were ruined by being squished down to be in a tiny amount of time. The problem was then that you couldn't actually just ignore it as plots from the show became major parts of later series. Lucasfilm said that they would explain how everything fits after the show ends, but since the EU ended we never received any explanations. I'd actually recommend that you read the EU yourself. Yes, there were novels that were really bad (looking at you, The Crystal Star), but for every sub-par novel, there were twice as many great novels. The I know you still have many other large series on your TBR but I'm still going to recommend the best Star Wars EU novels, that will hopefully give you context, and show you how the EU can actually be great: The Darth Bane Trilogy by Drew Karpyshan: This series bridges the gap between the Sith of the Old Republic and the modern Rule of 2 Sith and is perfection to many fans. It is well written and delves deep into Sith lore, whilst having extremely interesting and deep characters that you care about. Darth Plagueis by James Luceno. This is another great novel (and my personal favourite), that delves deep into Palpatine and his master. It is masterfully crafted and details all of the manipulation that occurred to allow for Palpatine to rise to where we see him in the films. It also delves deeply into Sith lore, as well as many of unanswered questions of the Prequels. The Thrawn Trilogy by Timothy Zahn. Now, this is the big series that truly started the EU and something that every fantasy fan should have read, in my opinion. This series is the sequel trilogy that we never got to many fans and truly pushes the characters forward in a satisfying way whilst still challenging them. It also introduces Thrawn. I'd think you probably already know a little about him, but he truly gets his time to shine in this series, allowing for him to become a great villain and is an extremely deep character (If you do love Thrawn there are many novels, both New and Old Canon, that do a great job explaining his history and motives. They are all written by his original creator.). (If you do wish to carry on I'd recommend the Jedi Academy Trilogy and Hand of Thrawn Duology. These aren't essential but they will provide a lot of context for NJO) The New Jedi Order. I'll be frank with you by saying that this is a long-ass series at nineteen books and will take a while to get through. However, that isn't detrimental to what is being told. The Yuuzhan Vong aren't some villain of the week but are instead an actual dangerous threat to the galaxy that take a long time to destroy. By allowing for this many novels to explore them we truly understand how dangerous they are. These are only some recommendations, and I could still list dozens more as the EU has so many great stories that are so often unjustly dismissed for "not being Canon" when in reality they never were.

[@robbomegavlkafenryka6158]

12:25 boomerangs are used to break Kangaroos’ necks, the fact those benders were still alive speaks volumes about how weak Sokka was.

[@tstot0404]

The scene where Chewie died from the meteor was epic. It sounds dumb when simply stated like that. But when I read the book it worked, and really hit me emotionally.

[@R.P.McMurphy]

12:43 That's exactly why I've never been interested in reading the Harry Dresden novels. Because when hearing its fans talk about it, that's the image I picture in my head of the book series.

[@messagesfromanintrovert5630]

I really relate to that last hot take. I too didn’t think about it much until this video, but as a child of divorced parents, and having some pretty important childhood friendships end throughout my life now for different reasons, I wouldn’t mind seeing it written into fantasy books now and then. I will say that it’s more prominent to see these representations in contemporary novels, but I barely read those anymore. On the other hand, a part of me maybe doesn’t want to read about failed friendships and relationships because one of my favourite things in stories in general is loyalty - something I value heavily and LOVE seeing in stories. Reading about something rather heartbreaking that I can relate too.. maybe isn’t something I want since I use reading as a form of escapism and not necessarily a way to “relate” to anything.

[@XxxXxx-dp8js]

"I want a magical lance!!!"-- The entire dragonlance series : "Am I a joke to you?"

[@jackwriter1908]

Wait... So you mean it would be smart choice to not mention Harry for the most of Book 7? Sorry, but I have to disagree. I mean it is called Harry Potter for a reason. Yeah it wasn't the most interesting book, but it would have been far more awefull if Harry turned up shortly before the Battle of Hogwarts and just said: „Sooo... We destroyed most of Voldermorts Horcruxes, broke into Gringotts, broke into the ministry, were captured by the Malfoys, fleed from the Malfoys and then came here because sonewhere in this Castle could be another Soul Anchor. Oh and we need the Sword of Griffindor.“ Sorry if my English wasn't perfect, but no. Yes I think they should have concluded Neville and the others at Hogwarts more, but taking away most of the actual „action“ and then let him show up at the last minute and let him say, he is almost defeated, is in my opinion stupid.

[@janhavi1977]

Exactly! You described my thoughts perfectly!

[@wellwell7429]

All that other fighting can't seem more interesting to me than Harry's journey, indeed, the story is about him specifically and his inner turmoil and not as much about the war

[@dericplummer9272]

agreed. That would be awful. And the character work with Harry Ron and Hermonie is super important. Ron and Locket? Alot happens in that portion of the book. Including explaining the title of the book, the Deathly Hallows.

[@meh6372]

Hi mate. Just wanted to say that I really really love the content. I got into fantasy late through asoiaf, then loved Joe Abercrombie... was at a loss as to where to go next. Decided on mistborn and it's just so so so so good. Thank you for your videos. I'm so excited to get stuck into the other series you have covered on your channel. Love from sunny (coronavirus infected) England.

[@Mona-kg6hy]

Hey Daniel! It was really cool to see that you responded to me! The funny thing is though that I am an actual huge history nerd myself! I'm actually an anthropology major minoring in classical studies and I honestly spend way too much time researching history for the hell of it. So, my problem doesn't lie with not liking history, but it's perhaps in that I like anthropology more than just straight history and enjoy more creative cultures that in turn have fairly unique conflicts to their world. Of course you're going to be inspired by history, but if you're writing a civil war, I prefer it if it's more than just American civil war with fantasy elements and instead uses inspiration from civil wars all over the world, then adds the fantasy elements and uses the fantasy cultures in ways that actually add to the conflict in an interesting way and aren't just some cool fantasy flavoring to real life. Basically, I want more creativity in the development of cultures and conflicts, or genuinely want to learn about this period of history. The War of the Roses is very interesting, and so I'd rather actually learn about it and the real people involved. I don't like a blend of real life and fantasy where I feel like the story isn't really original but also like I'm not learning actual history. Worst of both worlds to me. Again, really cool that you responded to me! My heart started beating super super hard when I saw my comment up there lol. Really glad we can have a nice discussion :)

[@fidlr2904]

Maybe a bit unrelated. But since you said you were a Anthropology major, if you haven't read it, you might wanna give Malazan: Book of the fallen, a chance. Since the author Steven Erikson, also is an anthropologist and archeologist.

[@Mona-kg6hy]

@@fidlr2904 I've actually bought the first book recently and have been excited to get to it! I just gotta reread and read the newest addition to Michael J Sullivan's 'Legend of the First Empire' series first, then I'll get started on it :)

[@jamesclawk852]

Regarding representation, my concern whenever this topic comes up is that many creators have a tendency to think that making someone a minority is all that's required for a compelling character, and this often leads to deepening stereotypes, and also causes some people to start to perceive representation as a bad thing, because they don't get enough chances to see it done well. I see this mostly with tv and film, but it's present in all forms of media, as far as I can tell. The other problem is when people argue about what 'representation' actually means. If one character has a different skin tone, but acts like every other character (not literally exactly the same, but similar in terms of values, culture, etc.) then is that representation? I don't know how often this happens, but I can easily imagine some creators choosing to avoid attempts at representation altogether when so many others have been attacked for doing representation 'wrong'.

[@gagesmith7895]

Daniel I love your videos. You got me into fantasy besides ASOIAF. I even enjoy watching videos where I am not interested in the topics/books at all. So keep it up Daniel, proud of you

[@sofiaamm]

i completely agree with you on fantasy weapons being underused!! foundryside by robert jackson bennet does this very well, with the greatest weapon in all history being a sentient key and the magic system influencing rapiers and bolts and all kinds of stuff in a really fun way

[@danielm2808]

Love when u kept the call in, everyone would cut that. Made me laugh 😂

[@lancefullmer9384]

Loved hellofutureme showing up love Tim's channel

[@mercylessplayer]

Yay I'm in a video! ANd yes, I might've overstated. However, the printing quality of many books I have just really frustrates me.

[@lexithan8622]

It would be really nice to see more people in fantasy go through breakups and through multiple relationships throughout the story. It would be very interesting to see the complexeties of any types of relationships be explored more and see how they sometimes change a lot or even end completely. I think it would bring a lot of depth and feelings to the stories. This might be the one thing in fantasy that I more than anything else want to see more of.

[@KHBogWitch]

I like that he responded to the action vs. character comment, because it highlights a very real divide between readers who primarily love character growth/arcs and those who focus on plot sequence or world building. Neither is better than the other, and I do agree that it’s possible for a writer to show you their characters through action, but nevertheless there is a divide among readers. And it’s rewarding, and frustrating, to discuss a book you love for one of these factors with someone who disliked it because of the other.

[@trolledchaos6531]

HOTTEST OF TAKES: Daniel should make a book fort out of all the books on his bookshelves and film a video in it, green screen and all.

[@bretsheeley4034]

"GIVE! ME! A! MAGICAL! LANCE!" Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis would like to have a word with you.

[@amankumarshaw5407]

6:50 this line is just pure gold

[@Omegaroth666]

I love the comment about weapons because I played a Dragonborn Fighter in DnD 4e from lvl 1 to lol 16, and I used a longspear. I liked the strategic options it gave me. When I write (or adapt, depending on your perspective) that story, I will remember this moment fondly.

[@Seblar87]

I'm intrigued by the Swedish scarface reference! 😂

[@urturningviolet]

The best part of this video by FAR was the friend love expressed in that phone call. Write that friendship into a fantasy novel and I am down.

[@MistbornTaylor]

15:51 Finally, I can use my favorite Hoid quote! “Given two works of artistic majesty, otherwise weighted equally, we will give greater acclaim to the one who did it first. It doesn’t matter what you create. It matters what you created before anyone else. So it’s not the beauty itself we admire. It’s not the force of intellect. It’s not invention, aesthetics, or capacity itself. The greatest talent that we think a person can have? Seems to me that it must be nothing more than novelty.” (Page 1000, Way of Kings) I find it more in movie reviewers that “if there’s nothing new then it’s not good” because there’s much more on the line for some of these multi-million to sometimes billion-dollar projects. Books are a much smaller, more personal projects that have the ability to play with tropes and experiment with ideas. There are still, of course, popular tropes and trends. Some are staple tropes of the genres or age ranges, some will come and go, but there will always be tropes. When I used to read a lot of books a year, I could tell when a trope was done well, when it was done poorly, and whether I personally liked it or not. However, there were times when I desperately needed to read different genres. I read majority of fantasy but I always had a few unread contemporary books to give myself something new. Then I also started reading books written by Eastern authors and manga. They have tropes but it was so refreshing and fun.

[@MetalJotis]

The Mad Lancers have enchanted armor!!! Loved that little tidbit! I know it's not a "magic flail" but that counts, right?

[@MRuby-qb9bd]

I like that you tell your buddy you love them. :)

[@blossomylion]

LETS DEBATE! *instant click*

[@thomasross6824]

1:21 I’m having to do this while reading the wheel of time. The ones I have always get ink on my fingers, and it’s really annoying to have to pry it open all the time. That hasn’t stopped me though, I’m on chapter six of the Dragon Reborn now :-)

[@TheTyjah]

The first time I read The Lord of The Rings it was from older additions some of which had some of the first and last pages missing, as well as parts of the pages that were there having pieces missing. I still have them on my bookshelf. Very grateful to my mom for recommending them to me.

[@sephestra.]

The dialogue is one of the reasons I love Dresden! Especially since you feel when he starts to think maybe he really IS a badass, says something completely obnoxious to an unknown entity, and then dials it back because, holy crap, there are bigger badies out there and he should probably just stop antagonizing them. Which he may or may not do, but at least you know he's doing it for kicks at that point, and that he knows he could be squished into a greasy spot at any moment. Plus, he may be uber, but he knows he would not have been able to accomplish/take on some of the things he has if he did not have the help of Team Dresden, even if they only "mind the phone". He will almost always bring in some combo of Murphy, Thomas, Molly (though we'll have to see how it plays out now), Knights of the Cross, Father Forthill, Butters, Toot and Za Lord's Guard, Bob, Billy and the Alphas, the Grey Council, Carlos, Ivy and/or Kincaid, Mouse, Charity (under duress at first, but not so much anymore), Lash, and even Marcone and Lara. There are others, but you get what I mean, I hope.

[@cbpd89]

Literary relationship that I would like to see either end in a break up or at the very least face some serious issues: Stormlight: Adolin and Shallan. I want to see them struggle with each other. They can stay together or not, but if they're going to stay together they got to earn it.

[@verbulent_flow6229]

7:18 "Give me a magical flail!" _As beams of vivid light flow from my palm, they materialize into an iron flail. I lend you the handle._

[@danecobain]

There are even some series that you can read out of publication order with no issues. Take the Hercule Poirot books, for example. Each works as a standalone mystery but you can also read them in order if you want. If you read them in publication order, you'll get to the final Poirot book (Curtain) and then have three more short story collections that were released after it, so it actually makes more sense to read it out of order. And that's not even mentioning that 35 years went by between when it was written and when it was published and so there's also the order in which they were written to think about ^_^

[@kaylacumerida5143]

I think Daniel is so cute. His passion and love for books always makes me smile.

[@ondrejrolnik1631]

I'll fight you. Chewie getting crushed by a moon while saving Han's child was one of the coolest moments in Star Wars and a right way for him to go.

[@susannahlewis8464]

The Discworld books can mostly be read in any order. I read Snuff first because it's the first one I found in a random airport when I needed a book. The only ones I've read in order is the Tiffany Aching series.

[@FlyingShadow09]

Your burn ward reference is now going to be my go to way of explaining people dismissing others issues