LETS DEBATE: Religion in Fantasy/Fantasy Horror!

[@DanielGreeneReviews]

The first 1000 people who click the link will get 2 free months of Skillshare Premium: skl.sh/danielgreene8 What opinions do you have about my opinions in response to these other people's opinions?

[@oliverschoneck7750]

I could imagine Tamora Pierces version of minotaurs being absolutely terrefying. As they are reduced to the 3 basic instincts sleep eat procreate. But they dont have females so they force themselves on humans, to make the horror effect more universal you could make them unable to differentiate between men and women.

[@yitzbweiss6785]

Vox Populi yes I disagree with you he’s a booktuber not a leftist hack

[@themarcazard]

Daniel! Check out The Chasing Graves trilogy by Ben Galley. Ancient Egypt baby!

[@audreyandremington5265]

@Vox Populi this is why he doesn't bring up politics. The moment you mention something as trivial as liking the color blue over the color red or say that elephants are smart, you start a name-calling war in the comments.

[@ANT96-x8d]

For the whole thing on religion, watch this:kzbin.info/www/bejne/p57cnq2ZncyMnMk

[@PsychologyandChillwMichi]

Omg ancient egypt fantasy would be epic

[@ammalyrical5646]

City of Brass? Or is that placed in more current times?

[@marianaipiranga4846]

City of Brass starts on 18th century Cairo but mostly is set on a magical city inspired by Middle eastern myths and stories. It is pretty good and has a very fresh take on fantasy settings and powers

[@PsychologyandChillwMichi]

@@marianaipiranga4846 That sounds interesting. I remember I really liked things like the mummy and the old bible stories like Moses because of the Egyptian connection. I would love to see more stories like that

[@ANT96-x8d]

As a Catholic, I love the idea of having religious and spiritual themes in High Fantasy. I also love how Tolkien’s Lord Of The Rings has strong hidden Christian themes since this came from the author being born and raised as a Roman Catholic.

[@CharlieThunder24]

I Thoth so too...

[@grand_R]

As an atheist I love religions in fantasy and have no qualms if religions are presented uncritically there. Both His Dark Materials and Narnia are amazing series.

[@Wormwoodification]

Ditto. Completely fascinated by religions even though I don't partake.

[@terragrahamthefirst]

You think religion is presented uncritically in His Dark Materials?? The main bad guys are the Church…

[@nicholasarkis6116]

I'm an atheist and I love His Dark Materials. And I love the main "bad guys" being the Church... because I believe one of the primary "bad guys" in the real world is in fact religion in general, and organized religion specifically when empowered.

[@swordfish1929]

@@terragrahamthefirst I don't think that is what they were saying. I suspect that they are putting forward two stories that fundamentally involve religion (very differently) both of which they enjoyed.

[@terragrahamthefirst]

@@swordfish1929 Ah, I think you are right. My bad.

[@angela_merkeI]

Yes! Diversify fantasy monsters! I'm sick of simple vampires for example. There are tons of different variations world wide who are fresh and unused. For example : a nachzehrer is a type of German vampire who comes into existence after someone kills themselves, is the first one to die of the plague, etc. A nachzehrer remains in its tomb and starts eating itself. The more it eats, the more "life force" it drains from its family, until they're dead. That would be a nice turn for once instead of the hundredth "haha, blood sucking go brrrrr".

[@keeprockin69]

Huh, interesting. I'm German, and I've never heard of that one

[@ultantuffy1194]

Yes I feel like fantasy monsters/races are just the same ones being so overused. That’s not to say I hate every book about vampires/werewolves/dwarves or anything else. I just think it would be refreshing to see new things come to light .

[@laszlovarga6953]

Do you have any websites, books, etc, about these unfamous monster types?

[@ingridschmitt4391]

You could write a terrifying horrorstory from the viewpoint of the family that would also be so emotional, because that's your dead sibling/parent/child killimg you. I'd definitely be into that

[@moredetonation3755]

This was in a Lovecraft story!

[@sirnobilant8077]

I’d like to see religion/worldview have more of an impact on characters, and see how that affects their choices. Religion/worldview is the core of what someone believes, and it influences their daily decisions more than I think fantasy gives credit for (in some cases, I know there are examples of series who do religions better than most).

[@ericjones6336]

Galad in WoT is actually a great example of this

[@mrhidetf2]

I liked the different religions in the night angel trilogy. I am not religious at all but i think brent weeks gave some good perspectives there. Just to pick two characters in that story: Durzo Blint and the Count Drake, one represents the kind of cynicism towards religion that many people feel and the Count shows what good values and hope can be found in religion. Religion in fantasy becomes boring when the author just chooses their religion of choice and creates a caricature of it that only shows the good or the bad sides. Super cringe to read an author either bash a strawman or tell u 24/7 how great their religion is without showing opposite viewpoints

[@jamesmalik3355]

I get reminded of Hacksaw Ridge and how religion was such a huge part of the films MC. Religion doesn't play a big role in my life outside family interactions. Dawson actually saved lives in large parts because of his faith

[@benstannard3574]

Maybe check out the Gentlemen Bastards Sequence as well? The main characters aren't exactly zealots of their god but they use the tenets of that religion to motivate some of their actions and define the boundaries for decisions they take. They also pray to their god (The Nameless Thirteenth or the Crooked Warden) in times of difficulty and I like this because it's actually kind of similar to how religious people are in real life.

[@ANT96-x8d]

“Believing in religion and the impossible is the most human part of being a human.”-Anonymous

[@gabebarnes2254]

I really enjoy how Sazed’s religions “arc” happened, (spoilers for Mistborn) from being a believer of almost every religion, to questioning every religion he knew & finally becoming god. I especially enjoyed the time period where Sazed was questioning everything & I love how Brando as a Mormon was able to do that so well. Just thought that was such an interesting way to write about religion. Oh Harmony, I love Sazed.

[@grendelentertainment9642]

I’m a little surprised Daniel didn’t mention Narnia/ his dark materials when talking about religion in fantasy.

[@MicahMicahel]

His Dark Materials mostly trashed Christianity in the last book. It didn’t really understand Christianity, but it did come out with a sort of Heaven scenario at the end without creating a new religion. I thought the first book was really good but the last was brought down by the writer’s sour grapes. Did other people think the last book was weaker? Maybe when authors have agendas, they don’t help the story. Who knows though... maybe people think the last book was great? I could be biased

[@shawngillogly6873]

Daniel has never been a fan of Narnia.

[@twenty-fifth420]

Nutsilica: Renaissance moving comix His Dark Materials is basically a reductionist take with a modern fantasy spin. I am not sure why people hype it but I just dont fundamentally like its premise. I could read it, same with Narnia. But I doubt I would enjoy either. As an agnostic, I tend to dislike strong opinions one way or another about religion. If I had to pick though, I would rather take the Reductionism of the unknown His Dark Materials. I remember having the Narnia boxset when I was growing up. My dad read it more then I did but I thought it was boring. At least one has a running HBO show.

[@robertgronewold3326]

@@MicahMicahel You are aware that His Dark Materials is a reimagining of Paradise Lost, right? It's sort of meant to trash Christianity a little bit. Though in reality, the book is mostly set against organized religion where you are taught to blindly follow, never thinking for your own.

[@savvasaam7644]

@@MicahMicahel oh come on, what's wrong with trashing the organised religion from time to time. Christianity is not gonna perish just because one man wrote a series of books where religion is bad. And also the last book fucking rules, the concept of the death realm and the aging god in the heaven located in another world was executed so well.

[@reaper2r]

Sanderson has characters like Hrathen and Jasnah which are extremely interesting, and religion is certainly a foundation in their personal psychology.

[@Donklopfen]

On the topic of religion: as a christian, I just wish there was more nuanced religious characters in fiction. More often than not, religious characters in fiction are fanatics. I don't want angelized religious characters either (that would be propaganda). I just want… Religious characters who feel nuanced, human and real. Like Kate Marsh in Life is Strange. (edit: spelling)

[@shawngillogly6873]

More Michael Carpenter. Please.

[@janhavi1977]

This! Anti-religious propaganda is just as annoying as religious propaganda. The Queen of the Tearling is a seriously big offender of this.

[@erikravey8313]

I am rather new to fantasy, but in my experience the religious characters are viewed in very few ways. They are cultural misfits (meaning they standout in very noticeable ways), they are gurus/monks/wisemen, or they are zealots. In my experience, most religious people are highly contradictory with their beliefs and struggle with those beliefs. I want to see a character who has beliefs and fails to uphold them. This internal conflict can be exacerbated by side characters that have massively different points of view (the zealot or the anti-insert religion here). I think my biggest issue is that many fantasy books have one particular religion be the given truth, and then paint the characters with a very simple brush. They can be normal people who cuss and kill, but pray at night and before meals.

[@madscientist2621]

You pretty much want to see Michael Carpenter from the Dresden Files. Jim Butcher stated he wrote Michael the way he did because he feels the same way you do about proper representation of religious characters.

[@ANT96-x8d]

What are some known fantasy books that have a positive portrayal and take on religion?

[@thehumanity3324]

3:07 I completely agree with your point. However, i would like to point out that a fundamental difference between religion as we know it and the examples you mentioned (Aes Sedai and Gandalf), is that in the examples the power or spirit that these groups devote themselves to is unqestionably real to the parties involved (the one power is real, the dark one is real, the valar are real etc). In human/modern/ earthly religion, religion also has a large component of faith, where it is rather the mysterious or unobservable elements that give meaning to someones religiousity. I felt like the question hinted at a character that relies on faith (needing to believe in some external power) rather than having that power observably presented to them. I am personally not religious but I could imagine that the challenges and thoughtprocesses are completely different between a religion of "faith" and a "religion" that is observable though the powers that literally walk the soil in that world.

[@wswordsmen]

Problem with trying to do that is that if it doesn't have a real effect on the world why take the page time to explain it? Most religious differences large enough to be of interest. To a hypothetical reader of a real Earth as their fictionalized story most differences within a religion are minor and esoteric, aka not worth explaining, and those that aren't can for the be more easily described as class and cultural differences. Why would a writer explain the difference between a liberal christian and an evangelical theologically when it would be a lot quicker and have more explanatory power, for their actions, to explain the cultural differences between them? And those are both within Christianity.

[@feruspriest]

I dunno. the Aes Sedai have access to special knowledge/ways to manipulate reality, but how and why that works is still an interpretive act. They have a theology about how the universe works, but how much of what they understand is based on lost/fallen knowledge and received wisdom?

[@ANT96-x8d]

“Believing in faith and the impossible is the most human part of being a human.”-Anonymous

[@robertblume2951]

@@wswordsmen because the cultural difference arises from the religious difference not vice versa. And there is no class difference between the mentioned groups.

[@robertblume2951]

This is why the modern fantasy irreligiousness is so mind bending stupid. Yes, let's all be atheist in a world of magic where Gods walk.

[@Zablazer7]

One example of a well developed, "capital R," Religion that had me entertained in fantasy is in The Priory of the Orange Tree by Samantha Shannon. The religion is inextricably linked to the magic system and I think that helped tremendously

[@kingsadvisor18]

Hot Take: Sword & Sorcery is unjustly slept on as fantasy. They were the first works to have morally grey protagonists when their contemporaries were the pure Lawful Good heroes of C.S Lewis and Tolkien. John Carter of Mars served as direct inspiration for early Superman stories and Elric of Melnibone, as far as my research goes, is the very first work of fiction to incorporate the idea of the multiverse. And when I bring up Conan the Barbarian, people usually have a laugh about Arnold Schwarzenegger and his performance of the character and his one liners when the original novels were some of the most thoughtful works for their time. Example: in the Tower of the Elephant short story, Conan wants to rob a tower owned by a sorcerer. After breaking in, Conan discovers an imprisoned immortal space deity whose power is being stolen by the sorcerer to the point where they have become horribly malnourished and gaunt. They ask to be put out of their mercy and Conan obliges, though feels terrible about it. Now, he doesn't want to rob the place, he wants to kill the sorcerer to avenge the torture and death of a cosmically unique being. You've already revved Witcher and ASOIF but here are some recomendations Conan the Barbarian, John Carter of Mars, Tarzan, Pellucidar, King Kull, Solomon Kane, Red Sonja, Usagi no Jimbo, Headlopper, Hellboy, and anything written by Michael Moorcock but specifically Elric of Melnibone. Also; the Crooked Man is perfect for a horror movie. Not the BS that appeared in the Conjuring cinematic universe, but as he is described in Southern Appalachia/bible belt US folk stories. Wanna know what I'm talking about, his depiction in Hellboy comics was pitch perfect

[@williamchristensen7354]

Tower of the Elephant is one of my favorites of Howard's! Solomon Kane is also a figure of his to point to for morally gray protagonists, and as he develops he sheds a good bit of his hard Puritanism (although I usually don't recommend those stories, as Howard unfortunately invests them with a mythos of Africa that is more than a bit racist).

[@CarrotVision3DCarrotsAreVision]

Daniel: "authors can't just write for fantasy fans" Steven Ericson: 😐...

[@kriplaniankit774]

Okay what does this mean

[@cyrlav7748]

@@kriplaniankit774 erikson wrote Malazan, very probably the most complex fantasy world ever written

[@ParadigmFluxEmporium]

To kriplani. Steven Ericson sets out to write solely for hard core fantasy nerds. Edit: actually that's wrong, me. He does sci-fi as well. but when he does fantasy, he does hard core fantasy, soley for fantasy nerds.

[@Severian1]

@@kriplaniankit774 Erikson writes the most fantasy of fantasy stories ever. Unapologetic fantasy for the hardcore.

[@christopherbaker8595]

He's an anomaly and still, his work isn't as widely known outside the fantasy demographic, and even inside of it, he isn't as popular as a lot of other series. but those who do know recognize his absolute genius

[@paraplegicleopardman]

Mermaids in the lense of modern Disney context are really more like selkies, Irish seal faeries who in some stories have been taken up as wives by sailors. For a nice modern interpretation of said myths, I'd recommend the Irish 2017 animated film "Song of The Sea".

[@pyayaXC]

Strongest trilogy I’ve read addressing the intricacies of organized religion was definitely the Winternight Trilogy. The nature of Russia’s “double belief" (dvoeverie, the reverence to pagan tradition in the midst of Othodox Christian communities) was perhaps the thematic center of the trilogy and did well characterizing organized Christianity on the scope of a single region/metropolitan. Perhaps crossing historically-inspired fiction with fantasy is cheating, but books taking this route have some of the best expressions of religion, organized or otherwise, in my experience.

[@poporopo913]

The Pillars of The Earth by Ken Follett is a non fantasy epic that does a great job of showing different types of religious people from different walks of life as they grow through years.

[@pyayaXC]

@@poporopo913 I've been meaning to play the video game adaptation of that one (have not yet read the books)! I often prefer the characterization of religious institutions in fantasy to that of typical historical fiction. I think that's because supernatural elements are more prevalent in the former than the later, though I'll be sure to check out Ken's Follett's work and perhaps reassess said preference.

[@poporopo913]

@@pyayaXC 1. I think Daniel did a review of the book some years back, maybe check it out. I came to the book from the mini series and it lands in a similar area to Game of Thrones in terms of history, action, and intrigue so maybe look that up too.

[@poporopo913]

@@pyayaXC 2. I definitly feel that fantasy allows for a sort of exaggeration that is also connected or relevant in ways that more realistic writing can't. I know there's a saying about metaphor being more realistic than reality, but I can't remember it now.

[@kerneywilliams632]

I wonder if D&D (and Pathfinder less so) defaulting to pseudo medieval fantasy has encouraged medieval fantasy. I feel like more characters I read could be defined by character class. I was reading some 80s authors recently and I found unlike Gentlemen Bastards or Book of the Ancestor I saw fewer character who I could say 'your a monk, your a rogue, your a wizard' and then defaulting/readers filling in details defaulting to pseudo medievalism. Authors who throw in know more history/anthropology/whatever are less likely to make characters who have easily definable class levels.

[@MRuby-qb9bd]

YES. Also there is a lot of crossover. Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance are both novel series and tabletop games... and of course RPG fantasy is also a growing genre in self-publishing.

[@poporopo913]

I feel like the British love of romantic mideval stories bled over to the US. So if your looking for a large pool of fantasy or historical fiction outside of mideval fiction then could look for translations of works from different cultures.

[@LoDaFTA]

There is also a certain appeal of being able to identify a character by a concept. That is why character archetypes are so popular in literature. But I also think that it kind of limits characters in a way, though it certainly makes it easier to write a character using one. So that is maybe why so many authors default to creating archetypal characters.

[@Sinewmire]

Partly, maybe. A lot of what some call the 'Consensus Fantasy Universe' has come from people copying Tolkien, but probably then people copying the copies. That's why Dwarves and Elves always hate each other. And exist, I guess.

[@fab006]

Daniel: my audience murders me on a regular basis. Also Daniel: people are light gray at worst

[@TheFiendofOndar]

That was an interesting point on religion. It makes me aware that I do indeed fall in the camp where, in my own writing, I am almost universally over-critical of religion. I often use it as a more or less evil force of oppression, war, authoritarianism, etc. I suppose that says something about my views irl. It seems like I might need to revise and work in some exceptions and gray area...

[@ChosenandUntamed]

I really enjoy the way that the Dragon Age games have handled religion in their world, along with appropriating existing terms and different myths (as a Catholic calling myself an apostate was odd at first). Great video!

[@seabird3896]

I reckon one of the reasons why there's not much depth of religion in fantasy is because it's SO controversial, basically. And it might just be compared to real life/the reader's own religious situation. Usually if someone is religious (I'm not talking about someone who just claims to be religious but goes about their way and abides by no religious laws anyway, those people probably wouldn't feel what I'm about to describe) it's a very personal thing, it's something that those people are usually brought up with and has familial ties. So if they're reading about this religion that basically goes against their own or in some way mocks their own (from their perspective etc), it would put them off a little, wouldn't it? Even if it IS made up, I don't doubt they wouldn't somehow be comparing it to what they believe/morally align with. But yeah, that's my take on it anway 🤷‍♀️

[@Levitania]

Prehistoric fantasy rec: So, some time ago someone recommended Chronicles of Ancient Darkness and now I feel it's good occasion to add my +1. It might be children series, but I personally think it is quite mature one, not really dumbed down. It is quite raw for a children series too. Bad injuries, sickness, mental problems, death... What I really liked about it was the supernatural part. The things people used to believe at ancient times actually exists here. Spirits, demons, magic, not the usual fantasy kind style, but tribal. Offerings to spirits, respecting and being connected with the nature etc. Not the best series I have ever read but think it would deserve to become more popular.

[@18SouthernWolf]

Well, Daniel, you finally got me to try Skillshare. Well done.

[@poporopo913]

One of us. One of us.

[@martytu20]

Brace yourself, the Fantano memes are coming.

[@jgamez215]

I absolutely love what you said about the idea of an "objective" review, especially in regards to gaming. The amount of times over the last few years people have tried to call their review, which is inherently an opinion (albeit an educated one), objective or unbiased always makes me roll my eyes so damn hard... And then there's the facade in gaming podcast circles of the "my PERSONAL vs CRITICAL" favorites of the year lists that are a staple of December video game podcasts/KZbin videos that make me want to punch drywall like my name's Kyle.

[@gooberato]

This religion discussion totally inspired a scene for my book. I can already hear my pov reacting to 2 priesrs debating an issue lol.

[@spiffybumbleteeth]

I appreciate how Daniel will get ranty and have fun with topics that are more fantasy based and less serious, while when he speaks on real world topics he does so with a bit more caution and respect. It’s a nice balance that makes for fun and non-inflammatory content

[@FinleyMatthews]

Religion in fantasy? Lol Dark Materials might have some ideas on that 😅

[@jamesfrederick.]

Honestly people should all have the right to choose there spirituality instead of being forced into a religion just because of what family you’re born into

[@annaofkirinore9784]

Chronicles of narnia probably also has some idea's very different idea's

[@kerneywilliams632]

@@jamesfrederick. Agreed in a perfect world. Fact is people more often than not default to cultural norms because people they know/respect follow those norms.

[@thomaswootress-reidt101]

@@jamesfrederick. I think that depends on the individual. We can't lump everyone who's born into something in the category of "they believe it because they were born into it." I was born into Mormonism with a huge Mormon family but left it. Later when I was 17 I went to a non-denominational Christian Church and now I'm a Protestant. Many people are born into Christian homes and become atheist. Many are born into non religious homes and follow new age, or Christianity or Buddhism, etc. The issue, I think, is that some people are born into a religion but never really take the time to actually question if they themselves believe it or not. Of course, there are many countries primarily in Africa and the Middle East where you have to practice the state religion by penalty of death, but that's a completely different topic.

[@ANT96-x8d]

The Lord Of The Rings:Has a strong theme of holding on to faith and hope through terrible times. Plus, it is a world where magics can be more like miracles sometimes. The Chronicles Of Narnia:Similar themes with the previous book series. Harry Potter:Kinda lacks faith, unfortunately. Looking at these characters, there doesn’t seem to be a single one of these characters in danger that is like,”Please God help me get through with this.” Plus, the magic in the series is more like sacrilegious magic(not satanic magic but magic that defies against the nature of God). His Dark Materials:Destroys religion itself.

[@lordofgraphite]

BRO i am with you SO HARD on your point about monsters. one of the coolest monsters i saw portrayed recently was matt mercers description and acting of a classic Hag that immediately inspired me to draw, it was just so creepy and awesome (awesome in the classic sense of inspiring awe/fear)

[@lucasbertsche3710]

Mistborn era 1 does a fantastic job exploring religion imo. Seeing Kelsier slowly lifted to God status as the Church of the Survivor is formed and watching Sazed become disillusioned from his beliefs are some of the most interesting aspects of the series. It shows how powerful it can be to believe in something but also questions the dangers of putting your faith in something that may be untrue.

[@omnitheus5442]

You got this topic from reading Toll the Hounds methinks. All the questions in that book about the new cultis twigged a lightbulb over your head. Well well handled in that book!

[@SpartanCharlton]

I actually like Silmarillion a lot more than Lord of the Rings, I guess I'm just the exception because I love that history and lore and stuff

[@purtyboi4901]

Daniel: "It's part of their culture, so who are we to say they're wrong?" Me: "So, what you're saying is...the Seanchan are actually chill?"

[@gokbay3057]

Seanchan are the most meritocratic and gender equal society.

[@Namron9797]

@@gokbay3057 Unless you can channel....

[@pip119]

I've just finished reading Wolf in Shadow (The Jerusalem Man, 1987) by Gemmell. To my surprise, I found it to be an engaging examination of Western religion. The main character is in some sense an extremist (also: a badass), and as you follow him on his quest you encounter the entire spectrum of believers and non-believers. I felt that Gemmell was expressing cynicism in blind-faith and dogmatism but also the (positive) power religion can have in unifying and inspiring a collective. I would definitely recommend the novel, whether you are interested in the religious aspects or just exceptional (British) fantasy. Oh, and it's not medieval :).

[@octo448]

I AM LIVING for this discussion about "objective" reviews. We all have a personal bias that we cannot simply dismiss and pretend isn't affecting us when we review a work. Pretending that some of us have this special innate ability to "remove all our own biases and see to the heart of the thing" is just elitist, and usually it's people who are the most biased that insist this is possible.

[@bramvandenheuvel4049]

15:00 I'm writing a fantasy book set in ancient Egypt! :O Well, an ancient (bronze age) Egypt analog, mixed with ancient Levant/Mesopotamia/Arabia/Latin America ^^

[@TheMightofDab]

If the sea people don't come and destroy your MC while he's surfing down a pyramid, I WONT read the sequel

[@bramvandenheuvel4049]

@@TheMightofDab I do have pyramids, but they're above water. As for sea peoples, I'm hinting at "increased pirate activity" and there is a foreign theocratic power that has effectively taken over the country. So... maybe you'll read half the sequel? :P

[@TheMightofDab]

@@bramvandenheuvel4049 ngl I really hope it works out for you!

[@GethinJones111]

Brian lumley did some cracking Ancient Egyptian fantasy... Check em out

[@patricksullivan6988]

On the correlation between actions and character, I would hold with "virtue ethics" - the idea that actions, repeated tend to develop habits (which may be vices or virtues), and that habits aggregate to develop character. There's a real path from actions to character, but one action on its own does not define character.

[@janhavi1977]

Obviously, Brandon Sanderson has some great ideas in his fantasy novels. One of the best things was Sazed trying to suggest religions that best fit Kelsier and Vin 😆 But another author is James Islington. His series The Licanius Trilogy also has some great themes of faith and whether we have free will. The series has some flaws, but the themes and the way the author delivered them was fantastic!

[@matthewfleming9265]

I really like how Erickson handles his religions. For the most part the way the religion functions is due to how it’s believers function. Most explicitly seen with the Errant. For the most part most people who worship a god do it in a more passive manner, with some going above and beyond (Itkovian) and some sinking to depravity (Bauchelin?) I’m only on book 8 so please no spoilers.

[@texman89]

I learned to read lips so I could hear Daniel say, "fish vage."

[@newfieocean]

Really good fired with butter..

[@Katie-ug3ep]

@ the "no such thing as an objective review" argument: yes! I'm currently reading a 1000 page tome that's only one sentence long. It's a stream of consciousness novel that was published by a local publishing company in my home town. I love it! I've never read anything like it, and I don't think I ever will again.

[@ChristmasLore]

I've read Belle du seigneur as a teen, still having headaches. (One of the first books without ponctuation for chapters length)

[@tilted_skirm]

People who think there's not enough religion in fantasy has clearly never read Malazan

[@thelightningking8772]

One of the most interesting religious organizations I have seen in fantasy actually comes from a video game series. The Septian Church is this widespread religion in the Trails series. What makes them interesting to me is their philosophy of integrating other beliefs instead of outright denying them, which has allowed the church to remain as an influential authority in the greater political sphere. Also there are some secret organizations within the church who have intentions that are a bit more gray, which is cool.

[@Earendil1992]

Maybe what people mean by"objectivity" with regards to a review is being able to see it from a different perspective. For example: "This aspect of the story didn't work for me but I can see how some people might enjoy it for this reason". I do agree that absolute objectivity in a review for anything is impossible, unless you are a robot with no emotions and life experiences 😂

[@MrJordwalk]

"This aspect of the story didn't work for me but I can see how some people might enjoy it for this reason". No, that's subjectivity. Objectivity in criticism is the ability to point out the qualities of a particular work that aren't subjective. In the case of writing, that's things like grammar, sentence flow, dialogue, character-building, world-building, pacing, and sense (the aspects of writing wherein hard degrees of good and bad exist.

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

@@MrJordwalk How does one objectively measure the quality of worldbuilding?

[@Earendil1992]

@@MrJordwalk That's my point, it's not objective but it might be what people mean when they say they're trying to be objective in their review. Those things you listed also can be subjectively reviewed, especially character/world building and magic systems. One person may say there's too much detail in world building and it gets in the way of character work/action or visa versa. All books have weaker elements, just depends on what the reviewer personally notices.

[@shawngillogly6873]

@@sernoddicusthegallant6986 Does the world look like something that *could* exist as described? Or is it obvious the author took no time to consider culture, geography, economy, and what magic would do to all of those in the setting? I've seen lots of objectively terrible worldbuilding. Where it's quite obvious the map came out of a generator, the culture is non-functional, and the economy broken. Now, what is good might be more subjective. Because it might work, but still appear revolting to me. The caste society of the Huana in POE2 for example. Functional, but hideous. Still good worldbuilding, imho.

[@0ceanaut]

@@shawngillogly6873 That's not objective, a randomly generated map might be appealing to some. You can say that by current standards something is less valued, but as someone previously said, you can't in any meaningful way objectively measure worldbuilding.

[@andyxz_8091]

Going off what you said about horror, I would love to see a horror book set in a fantasy setting!! Maybe there are some good examples but I haven’t seen any yet (aside from The Book of Lost Things that I found pretty creepy)

[@Jasonwolf1495]

My hot take: Horror shouldn't be used on its own. Having a story be JUST horror diminishes the actual fear and tension because that's all you expect. Horror added to other types of stories gives you time to build the fear and release it and use it in a long term story. For example have an adventure where for a part of the story the characters are being hunted by a monster of some sort and you build that tension and you finish that part of the story some characters might have died those that survived now have to finish the adventure with that experience still weighing on them. Heck you could think of the Nazgul as a perfect example. A horror monster in a fantasy story that puts characters on edge, but you also don't have the baggage of a "horror story".

[@letheanlove]

Your comments about the horror genre made me realize why The Terror (book and show) works so well for me

[@slome815]

The silmarilion is my favorite book ever, followed by the theogony. So yeah, i'm all in for a better mythology.

[@jonjo2598]

Objective reviews certainly exist for plot and character arc. It is possible to look at the placement of your plot points and determine if they are far from the ideals set out in 3 arc story structure (the 25%, 50%, 75% marks). Just so, it is possible to look at character arcs and determine optimal placement. This goes against your other point at the 15 minute mark - as anyone can write a genre novel so long as they have read a few books screenwriting/novel writing.

[@alicemcimen]

Bruh...imagine discussing religious themes and not mentioning Dune saga. Messianism, feudal theocracy, bene gesserit, orange catholic bible, zensunnis, hello?

[@alexisdumas84]

He only read the first Dune book and really didn't like it, so I wouldn't expect him to mention it.

[@thomaswootress-reidt101]

Bruh. You right doe.

[@ncthomas420]

faith militant or rhollor in game of thrones.....

[@alicemcimen]

@@alexisdumas84He didn't like the Kingkiller Chronicles either. But he does bring up certain aspects of it time to time e.g prose.

[@LoDaFTA]

@@alicemcimen The point is that the Dune religion was only developed after the first book. There were some themes in the first book, mainly the social engineering that the Bene Gesserit did with their Missionaria Protectiva, but they only began to dive deep into the religious aspect in the second book. It wouldn't be fair of Daniel to discuss themes of a book that he didn't read. But you're right, the Dune saga is one of the juiciest philosophical theological debate pieces in the history of fantasy.

[@LightningRaven42]

One thing mentioned in this video instantly popped up to me. The use of the old stories that are more raw and "true" to base your stories on. This is something that Jim Butcher does really well in his books and he often comments that when he's researching for his books, he always try to find the source of some myth or creature, this lets him tap into a more visceral aspect of something we're used to see in warped and, sometimes, watered down version of amazing stories. That's why Butcher's vampires, fairies , Naagloshi, trolls, goblins, ghouls and most of his menagerie are so interesting and dangerous, because they had that old rooted fear attached to them on top of Butcher's own personal twist.

[@dominicjohnson2364]

Religion in Fantasy -- isnt that the whole premise of The Final Empire (Mistborn)?

[@ammalyrical5646]

Partly. But not really. It is the whole premise of Peter V. Brett's Demon Cycle though. Especially the faith part. But you have to read all 5 books in the main series to see it.

[@dominicjohnson2364]

@@ammalyrical5646 I've never read that series, I'll have to add it to my TBR.

[@poporopo913]

I feel like religion is a strong theme in Mistborn. I really love the different perspectives Sanderson offers in it. However I don't think religion is the premise of Mistborn. It is a driving force, but not the foundation the story is built on.

[@ammalyrical5646]

@@dominicjohnson2364 Nice. I feel like I should warn you it has a lot of gore and horror in it as it plays a lot with how differently humans react to fear and trauma, especially in the first book is where this stands out. I hope you enjoy it and maybe come back later to discuss the books underneath my reviews (I don't remember if I kept them completely non-spoiler, but they would probably be according to my standards).

[@martytu20]

Hero of Ages had blatant references to Mormonism (metal plates on text, corrupted documents, ascension to godhood), and Sanderson is usually fairly good at keeping his LDS influence subtle.

[@andygraetz6116]

If you are looking for some really amazing non-medieval Europe style fantasy I recommend: The Dandelion Dynasty Series by Ken Liu, The Daevabad Trilogy by S.A. Chakraborty, and The Legacy of Orisha Series by Tomi Adeyemi!

[@NaytGaming]

Hey everyone, Danthony Greentano here!

[@0983477113]

The world's most disheveled goblin nerd

[@WeIsDaTyrantz]

This uh, Wizards First Rule book? It's NOT GOOD. *boom boom boom*

[@NaytGaming]

@@WeIsDaTyrantz I give it a light to strong 0/10

[@fiet_0542]

Fifth comment: honestly I don’t really have that many experience with cyberpunk and steampunk fantasy, though it is just nice to see original things. I think as an author you have accomplished something as an author, when your work is so original that people can’t place it in a book.

[@slavapalooza8425]

I'm big on theology and mythology so I personally think there needs to be more Sillmerilian type books

[@fiet_0542]

First comment: I do think it is nice to see different peoples views. It is interesting to read the perspective of a religious figure if you are not religious, but that is with more than just religion of course. Different ways of thinking are always nice to explore

[@drewbeedoo9042]

Just because there can never be a purely "objective" review doesn't mean we should stop aiming for it and dive headfirst in subjectivity. if you can establish something like pacing in other examples of well written books and then compare the object of your review to it, yes that may not be objective in totality, because that definition of pacing, as im sure you would argue, will be subjective. But that doesn't mean we should just dunk ourselves in subjectivity and bathe in it. why not try your best to be objective, knowing you will fail at least to some degree? resignation to lack of possibility here, beyond even that of ability is disappointing to hear. :(

[@Tronplex]

12:30 interesting background choice. Just a bunch of cartoon character that start with the letter W. I don't know why you put it, but I'm not complaining.

[@swizzle2516]

The education system hot take, I think that it kinda stands up with the UK education system. Secondary school English Lit and Language is fairly comprehensive and goes into depth on structures and all that good stuff.

[@Giligann93]

I do agree with the first take that often the religious people in sci fi and fantasy don't often get written from perspective. This is one reason why I love Anna so much in The Expanse. I think it shows great writing that they can capture her perspective that is so completely different than everyone else in the story, and offers a unique set of challenges for her.

[@missmysterious5769]

Into The Drowning Deep by Mira Grant has monstrous mermaids.

[@amaresuify]

Also, I can't remember if she published under Mira Grant or Seanan McGuire, but there is a mermaid short story collection with some truly disturbing takes. Seanan McGuire has a long standing love for mermaids.

[@markvogel4341]

@@amaresuify I've not read it yet but I tracked down a short story that she wrote as Seanan McGuire titled “Carniepunk: Daughter of the Midway, the Mermaid, and the Open, Lonely Sea” Thanks to Miss Mysterious and you, Pearl. Looks like very interesting worldbuilding in her stories.

[@amaresuify]

@@markvogel4341 That's a good one! Upon reflection I think I may be confusing multiple mermaids short stories of hers with a collection. That being said the one in Laughter at the Academy is probably my favorite. I really hope you enjoy her writing. Additionally, I believe the October Daye series has selkies and I believe mermaids on later installments. It's an urban fantasy occult detective series set in San Francisco. It's her only series I don't read so I'm not sure on the details.

[@patriciamartins5741]

I totally agree with you! I would love to see more ancient mythological creatures/monsters in movies and books. The Mayans had some creepy gods, and for some reason, the kraken still scares the hell out of me.

[@corrinflakes9659]

I want to see fantasy horror with the big monster is a biblically accurate angel. They're very Lovecraftian.

[@theflickchick9850]

Yeah, except angels are good. So by making them horror, you sorta negate their whole purpose.

[@corrinflakes9659]

@@theflickchick9850 "God is Good, so kinda negates the idea of God being a final boss in a JRPG." Even though it could be philosophy turning religion on its own head.

[@the_corvid97]

@@theflickchick9850 In the Bible whenever people see Angel's they are typically talked about with words showing that they don't understand what they're seeing, for example You have Cherubim with four faces representing four different creatures or the Seraphim with six wings. Also angels representing the holiness of God is terrifying to normal human beings, repeatedly even when Angels have a human esque form people are worried they will drop dead. Angel's are good, but they're also terrifying.

[@theflickchick9850]

You’re 100% right! I love angels and find them super fascinating. I’m just bothered by the idea of them becoming villains since they’re good creatures.

[@the_corvid97]

@@theflickchick9850 I agree with you there, coming from a Christian background, but I would like a depiction of Angel's that isn't just a beautiful glowing version of a human, having something terrifying and so beyond us, yet good would be cool.

[@banjowarrior365]

YES! We totally need more fantasy/mythological horror!

[@mischarowe]

It's nice to see fantasy writers tackle the gritty parts of religion in books because it's easier to get that message across in a make believe world - because people are so sensitive to that topic in the real world.

[@moredetonation3755]

I don't know about that. I think it's safe to say that most people reading fantasy probably aren't religious, and if all someone sees of religious depictions in fiction is negative or "gritty," that can misalign their perception of religion from reality.

[@mischarowe]

@@moredetonation3755 Given that most people are religious, I'd disagree that most fantasy readers aren't religious - it's a popular genre. I think you underestimate how easily someone can separate the fantasy if the book from the mythology of their faith.

[@mischarowe]

@@moredetonation3755 I should add that I also don't agree to the implication (correct me if you didn't imply this) that the gritty parts of religion should be left out of fantasy novels.

[@Kaiularalei]

A good recent release that has a really vital and developed religion is Deeplight by Frances Hardinge. Lots of morally grey characters as well, plus an interesting exploration of what people would do when faced with the death of their physical gods. From casual believers, to priests who regularly interacted with the gods, to full on religious fanatics. Plus it’s not typical fantasy, it’s vaguely steampunk but set on a series of islands where diving for treasure is the main form of business

[@Goblinerd]

"See if they would like to read about a religion that's not even real..." So, Scientology then. XD

[@Namron9797]

Or any actual religion that exists....

[@djz1245]

@Namron9797 wow, how creative

[@safinsalt2265]

Namron9797 i disagree

[@ChristmasLore]

@@Namron9797 is so right.

[@twenty-fifth420]

As someone working on a heavily inspired Mesoamerican Fantasy epic because of my aztec heritage, I found out indirectly I love Polytheism. (Currently writing notes and creating cultural notes for Nanowrimo) As an agnostic, it just provides me the most flexibility and creativity in my mind and I wanted to turn a counter culture turn of the wheel of the Epic Fantasy with their Christian Roots. This is the perfect video to come out for me. Love you Greenescreen Boi.

[@NotMeButAnother]

I've been wondering for a while whether the high religiousity among fantasy authors (from Tolkien to Jordan to Sanderson) has to do with the genre's tendency to portray divine right monarchy or benevolent dictatorships more positively than more egalitarian forms of government. It could also just be unreflected genre tradition (today at least), but it shouldn't simply be the desire to reflect the historical period, as these kinds of rule were often... not positive. Any ideas?

[@joelgabrielgrey]

I think for Tolkien it was likely influenced by a mix of traditional fantasy (Arthurian legend and such) and the Norse sagas he loved so much. The rulers are usually strong, benevolent leaders who truly guide their people. Since then I suspect it’s partially tradition from Tolkien, partially influenced by Arthurian legend and such, and partially due to the pseudo-medieval character of most fantasy worlds. Democracies or modern republics would feel out of place to a lot of people. Though I actually sort of like the idea of seeing more of those. Another boring reason might be that it’s just easier to write three kings talking to each other and negotiating than it is to write three representative assemblies.

[@NotMeButAnother]

@@joelgabrielgrey It makes sense for Tolkien and I get your point about the rest, but that doesn't cover it all. There's books where they have something like a parliamentary monarchy and once the king is the protagonist, having a political process is suddenly inconvenient and useless time wasting and squabbling and when the protagonist murders their way to absolute rule it's portrayed as a good thing. And it's not just Goodkind and his ilk, Sanderson for example arguably does this in Well of Ascension.

[@walter1383]

I heavily encourage you to either read or listen to a reading of Tolkien's "On Fairy Stories". He addresses this very topic, but his ultimate reasoning for our fascination with fantasy is deeper then the concept of a benevolent king, (though that certainly does play into it, and as a Christian I myself subscribe to said beliefs.)

[@sarahbookworm5937]

I would love a comeback of the Japanese Oni has a horror story. BTW... I love your cartoon background, as a Disney nerd.... it made my heart happy lol.

[@lily-_-]

Was anyone else shouting "The Magnus Archives!" as he described wanting more horror based on primal fears?

[@adoniscreed4031]

Wow that point about the horror genre terribly underutilising ancient creatures is SO GOOD and at the same time so obvious that Im surprised I never had the thought

[@8thMusketeer]

"It's part of their culture, so who are we to say they're wrong?" I disagree with that. If it's ok in your culture to assault and murder someone just because they don't believe in the same beliefs or god as you, that doesn't make it right. It's still wrong. No exceptions.

[@InsomniaticDeathWish]

See, I agree with you to a point. The concept of right and wrong itself is completely subjective, because it changes from person to person and with the times. Using your example of a culture that allows for the assault and murder of those with a different religious belief than you, saying that all instances of this assault or murder is wrong with zero exceptions is incorrect, because what about the motivations of the people involved? Say person A is the one assaulting person B for subscribing to a different religion. Person A kills person B, that is wrong. Or is it? Because due to the actions of person B, more people are starting to subscribe to his religion, and starting to grow disgruntled with the government who are discriminating against them. This will cause tensions to rise, even without the law saying assaulting someone believing in a different religion than the one allowed is okay. Add that law in, then the enmity between the two sides will become massive enough that everything will boil over, most likely resulting in some type if civil war. Person A has realized this, and, justifying it to himself as using this law to prevent a possible uprising that seems likely, he kills person B. This warns others that doing what person B did could cost them their life, preventing the previously mentioned civil war, and possibly mass loss of life. This course of action, from person A's perspective, is perfectly fine, and perhaps should be lauded. He was preventing someone from sowing discord in his homeland. This whole story was just to point out the fact that while on the surface, things like assault, murder, and the like, are wholly evil, there can be circumstances that allow for those actions to be the correct choice for someone trying to do a good deed. The only thing I can really think of that doesn't have some type of use leading to a positive outcome, is rape. Using it as a punishment doesn't make sense, as, if the person being raped is desperate enough, they could get some type of pleasure out of it, therfore invalidating it's use. And any one that is being raped as a punishment, is either fucked up enough that they may have done it themselves, in which case the death penalty makes the most sense, or they are actually the victim, and the rapist is using a perceived slight as a justification for performing said act. In any case, rape is just fucked up on a conceptual level, and would end in trauma for at least the victim, if not all parties involved.

[@8thMusketeer]

@@InsomniaticDeathWish I think u contradicted yourself there. You said right and wrong r completely subjective (which I disagree with), but then u say that rape is always wrong (which I do agree with). I don't think u can have it both ways. Also regarding your rather extreme religion/civil war example, there are so many more peaceful ways of resolving that kind of problem without straight up murdering someone. In most cases I highly doubt a new religion could destabilize an entire country. Unless it's a super violent and intolerant religion, most people aren't going to care what God you worship. But even If practices of said new religion did threaten civilians or their country in any way, u could just make those certain practices illegal. And those r just a few less evil ways of resolving that. There are just far too many variables to justify murdering that one person. Which begs the question: is it ever ok to murder someone? The only time I could see it justified is in self defense. But then, is killing in self defense the same as murder? Is taking someone's life ok in that case? So I think (and feel free to disagree here, I'm not saying I'm right) that right vs wrong is more of a blurry spectrum rather than completely objective OR completely subjective. Sometimes your forced to do bad things for righteous reasons. Their still wrong, but it's up to u to forgive yourself after and make amends where u can after.

[@InsomniaticDeathWish]

@@8thMusketeer While there are a lot of variables in the situation I proposed, I just wanted to introduce the element of someone justifying to themselves an action, therefore changing something in their eyes from wrong, to right. Just the idea that something can be justified, however effectively in our eyes, makes right and wrong subjective. I say that because you can't look at a situation objectively and determine which person is right or wrong without accounting for the history between two people, the intentions of the people, the culture, etcetera. And even after all of that, whoever is determined to be right, that is only in the eyes of the whoever is judging them. Someone else may come along, and look at the exact same situation, but come to a different conclusion. There are so many variables that come into play when judging right and wrong, just to yourself, that it's hard to balance those variables while staying objective. And because of that element of doubt, I can't really say that right and wrong, the concept, is anything but subjective. And yes, I did say that I believe rape is completely and utterly wrong, and that there is no justification to it. However I also realize that that opinion, is just that, my opinion. Someone in the world may very well have found a way to justify rape to themselves, and wholeheartedly believe it is the right course of action. I'd most likely abhor that person, but I do concede that person has either existed, or exists even today. Anyway, you brought up some very good points, and I do feel as if I made that situation a bit to unbelievable in hindsight. I also agree that in most situations murder is wrong, and there needs to be a distinction between it and killing someone in self-defense. I just wanted to bring up the fact that everything we're debating right now, is coming from only our two points of view. And just having our two points of view, makes it hard to actually determine an answer, especially when I actually agree with basically everything you've said. In regards to your definition of right and wrong as a blurry spectrum, that's actually how I look at it as well. It's also how I define most things I believe are subjective, as a spectrum of different results, or opinions, of which none are definitively correct as they are all changing with person to person and with the times. Of course I've never actually bothered to look up the dictionary definition of subjective, so this all could have been me calling something subjective while laboring under a false definition of said word. But, whatever, I've enjoyed this debate, mostly because I don't have many people to debate things like this with. If you have a rebuttal, I'd really like to hear it, because this would be fun to continue, and I'm curious about what you have to say.

[@8thMusketeer]

@@InsomniaticDeathWish Hey Jeff, sorry for the delay. Got caught up with work. Also, judging by the way your using the word "subjective", I'd say u have the right idea of the meaning. Anyway, I feel like if someone thinks they can justify rape as the right course of action, they are just delusional. Just because they believe they r right, does not actually make them right. Though I see what ur saying, I also think rape is a bit of an extreme example. Most people will agree rape would belong on the farthest end on the "wrong" side of the right vs wrong spectrum we were talking about. And those who don't... well like I said, they would be delusional. Here's where I think u might disagree with me. I honestly believe crimes like murder, assault, theft, and rape are always wrong, though some obviously worse than others, but they are, in they're nature, dishonest and sinful acts. You can say it can depend on a number of variables like someone's beliefs, the cause/reason, or history, but I still don't think that would change something from being wrong into something right. What if someone were to have murdered Hitler before him and the Nazi could start World War 2? I honestly believe that would still be wrong. You would save thousands of lives, but by doing so, you yourself would have committed the sin of murder. Now, you could argue that that one murder was justified, and make a pretty damn good case for it to. Taking one life but saving thousands? Sounds like a sweet deal. Does that change that act from wrong to right? I still don't think so. Your still taking a life. But can bad things sometimes be justified. I think they can. It's like I said before. Sometimes people will do bad things for righteous reasons. How much of it can be justified would depend on all those variables discussed before (which I think is what u were getting at), as well as who's being the judge. But when it comes to who's being the judge and jury, I think there is only one person who's judgment matters above others. That's God. I don't know where u line up spiritually or religiously, but Jesus is seen by many as being the symbol of righteousness even if u don't believe in him. And he does judge everyone's actions. He would have to right, to know who to accept into heaven. I realise if u don't believe in God, this means nothing to you, but if there is one person (or higher power I guess) that can un-blur that right vs wrong spectrum, it would be him. Anyway sorry this comment is a little longer than the others, but this is definitely one of the more interesting discussions I've been in on KZbin. And damn, it's pretty deep too. I think my brain is going to need a nap after this.

[@InsomniaticDeathWish]

@@8thMusketeer I get where you're coming from, in regards to the idea that things like murder, rape, theft etcetera are inherently wrong. And I do think that's probably something we're just not gonna agree on. I don't like thinking anything in and of itself is an inherently wrong course of action. This just, in my mind, prevents certain actions from being used more often for the betterment of others, and the progression of society. Do I think that some of these actions have been twisted and distorted into something horrific and abhorrent that should never have existed? Absolutely, but I usually prefer judging people predominantly on their motovations instead of the actions themselves. Yes, the actions will play a significant role in judging how much of a justification is needed to make those actions agreeable to me, but the motivations, at least in my eyes, are more important. And I think this mindset allows for me to be a bit more adaptable when judging situations for myself, as if I can figure out why someone did what they did, that usually frames their actions in a different light than they appear at first glance. In regards to the idea of a higher power, or an ultimate judge, my stance is a bit weird. I haven't really subscribed to any one religion, but I do believe that there is some sort of higher being that exists. Do I think this being created us as a species, or is judging our every action? I don't know. There are just so many unknowns when talking about religion that the leap of faith it takes to throw yourself into any one of them kind of unnerves me a bit. That, and all of the twisting of words and meanings within whatever spiritual text you're talking about that divides people even within the religion as a whole. Basicsally, my stance on religion just boils down to the fact that I believe there is some type of higher power, but aren't confident enough in any of the religions I've looked at to say they are definitively correct, because none of them have given me absolute, concrete proof that they are right. Anyway, that rant on religion was something I wanted to get out of the way before addressing the section on Jesus being the ultimate judge. Holding Jesus as a paragon of righteousness is definitely something I can understand. And he is an example of a possible historical figure who did do everything right, and probably is someone people should try and model their life after. But, as mentioned in the rant earlier, my stance on religion kind of precludes me from believing everything I've heard about Jesus, just based on the fact that there isn't any concrete proof. So, while I do think basing your actions on the interpretation of Jesus represented in the Bible is an admirable thing to do, I don't like thinking of anyone as the ultimate judge of whether my actions are right or wrong. Mostly because I've gotten so used to thinking in terms of human nature, and the possible motivations of certain actions. So putting into practice the idea of a human, or at least a being that appears identical to a human, who is incorruptible and has no biases in any one direction is just something hard for me to do. I'm pretty sure that's addressing everything you mentioned, so I'll stop there. I'm kind of wondering if this will turn into a debate on religion next considering we kind of hit the end point in regard to the right/wrong one we were having. If not, it was fun going back and forth with you, and if it does, I'm curious to see where it goes.

[@jakerockznoodles]

12:56 I totally agree with what you're saying here. There are so many people who do bad things who don't even recognise what they do is bad. You look at a lot of abusers and quite often if you confront them, they'll refuse to admit they've done any of the things you're accusing them of and they'll genuinely _believe_ that. Children are often seen as more "innocent" because at a very young age, you've not developed complex reasoning yet, so X is bad and Y is good. They haven't yet been able to develop the ability to reason themselves into a "Actually in this case it was justified because [justification]". A lot of the evils in the world are caused by a) People who feel like they can justify their actions, b) people who've convinced themselves that they never hurt anyone at all, or push the blame onto others and c) people who simply don't care, who prioritise their comfort or desires over the wellbeing of other people.

[@oliverkiernan4997]

Attempt 2 of getting Daniel to review Skulduggery Pleasant

[@j-jackquinn5540]

its like baby dresden but still dope as hell

[@wdmassey1734]

actually i kinda do agree with of that but in the aspect of the in the fantasy genre is that it`s got to be more about the idea of the simplicity of horror of the idea of being afraid of the constant dread of the reality of what might happen in the future and also on the actions and the decisions of the characters with in that fantasy world

[@georgehovsepyan6094]

"Objective review doesn't exist" *I now summon thee, Lord Mauler of The Long Men, to destroy this heresy and end these lies*

[@ianmcconnell7108]

LoNg mAN bAd

[@AJPzaworld]

Ah, another brother of the Toxic Brood. May the Don, the Longman, the Longbone, and the Blessed Rag’sss bless you with Rhino Milk, my brother.

[@Crrow13]

For a horror film about old tales of the sea. Watch the Lighthouse by Robert Eggers. It can go either way by the atmosphere, sound mixing, and cinematography are fantastic... especially the dream sequences.

[@avsambart]

Japan has so many interesting 'creatures' (youkai). My favourite is the one that lives in the toilet and that's why they're taught to close the lid after every use so the toilet youkai can't get out and grab you. Now that as a bloody, scary horror movie 😘

[@michaelantosch9888]

I am totally on board with your point about horror creatures based on past mythology. Vampires are the creature that I'm a bit of a snob about (I have Slavic heritage, go figure). Real life folklore as in, stories told by or about people who believe they were actually REAL, are far more compelling than a lot of the stuff that was super popular a few years ago. Some prime examples, are Nikolai Gogol's horror stories ("Viy," "A Terrible Vengeance," "St. John's Eve"). P.S., I see you are a HOMAGE customer, based on the T-shirt (Columbus native, here).

[@AscendantStoic]

13:49 That's a very flawed line of thinking, the whole "Who are we to tell them that's wrong!!!?" ... that's 100% dependent on what that action is, just because something is from a different culture than yours doesn't automatically make it immune to criticism or outright condemnation, for example if it's something benign and harmless, say a certain culture like to bury mummies of their dead under their houses (don't ask) then even if I don't like it because of my own culture or religious beliefs generally there shouldn't be any problem with it. But, if a culture involves wife beating, human sacrifice, cannibalism, normalizes killing of LGBT people, encourages older men to groom younger pubescent males sexually into some sort of coming-of-age ritual, ... etc .. then that behaviour is wrong, worth of both criticism and condemnation, and even criminalization specially if members of that culture come over to live where other people criminalize that kind of behaviour saying "who are e to tell that's wrong!!?" then sounds patently ridiculous, humanity has as a whole developed a base moral code that stems from human nature and our need to socialize and be accepted by others as the social animals we are, you will find similar moral codes and core values across all major religions, cultures and civilizations, in Ancient Egypt, in Mesopotamia, in Greece ... etc etc ... you will find moral codes similar to the ten-commandments in all those civilizations despite lack of communication or huge distances between them (like the Code of Hammurabi), so the few cultures that dramatically deviates from from those core values usually deserve all the condemnation they get.

[@fadedpages]

yeah, beliefs might provide CONTEXT and a basis for understanding but it doesn't determine whether actions are fucked up. Especially not if it includes doing harm to others.

[@AKeane-pi2kw]

Tbf to the aztecs if I thought/believed my God would die and the world would end if I disn't sacrifice people to them. I'd be sacrificing motherfuckers left and right.

[@rojack79er]

Currently working on an ancient Greek fantasy story. Just got done with the outline and now I'm working on writing it.

[@nachikahn4923]

I AM the executioner

[@TheArtfulBrittani]

I know you've talked about the people who comment rude things about your dyslexia. I'd just like to leave a positive comment and say that I never even noticed until you said you had that struggle. :) Also, I've been a new sub since the whole pandemic situation started...I'm enjoying your channel and book recommendations.

[@ethanwoodcox9109]

1:55 hey that's me :)

[@JerodimusPrime]

Hey, that's me 4:38 ;)

[@Grimscribe732]

I'm currently reading the Demon Cycle series, and gotta say, Peter V. Brett does an amazing job of portraying different cultures and religions and their perspectives on each other. Overall, I'm damn impressed by the series so far (currently reading book 3 out of 5).

[@alexisdumas84]

There may be no totally objective review, but I do think there are books that objectively fail at doing what they set out to do, and books that objectively succeed - and that is something even someone who doesn't like them could recognize. Like you with Nevernight. Hence, I think you're focusing on the wrong thing when you say reviews can't be objective. You're focusing on the *means* alone - grammar, syntax, pacing - whereas you should be asking whether the means is capable of satisfying the *end* the author had in mind. This is a better framework because it allows you to differentiate largely objectively between objectively bad things like just bad spelling that serves no purpose, and purposefully misspelled words as part of some non traditional literary thing; it also lets you tell whether that no traditional literary think could work, whether or not you enjoyed it. In sum, I think you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater on this by focusing on the WHAT ("there are misspellings") and not the WHY ("the misspellings serve/don't serve a purpose").

[@erwinblackthorn4476]

You got it 100%. It's not exactly a bad thing to think that everything is subjective in a review, but it is harmful in the way that it makes people think that they can then be as experimental as possible, and so we get some odd things that we're told we can't give an objective review on, even though they are objectively bad. There is a technical aspect to everything, and I think the best way to explain it is in the example of how to use an adjective. You can describe it by definition directly, or you can use a metaphor. The definition is technical and the metaphor is creative. But, as long as the definition is understandable AND creative, we get this great middle zone between what is said and how it's said. Although, I like to think that the equation is multiplication instead of addition (T * C = Objective review). If the creativity is at 0, meaning a cliche, then it is objectively bad, because the cliche cancels out the technical aspect of the equation. This is kind of why it's very hard to find someone go "oh, no, I really really love cliches! I think they are better than being original!"

[@a_blitz]

Daniel if you like some really good urban horror and you like podcasts i would really recomend the magnus archives. It is a really good podcast and the horror and mysteries in it are top notch.

[@ThePurpleBookWyrm]

"There are no religious characters in Fantasy fiction". Melisandre of Asshai: Am I a joke to you? 😁

[@TulilaSalome]

The high sparrow likes

[@LANFEAR93]

Don't even go to the Aiel waste.

[@tannercaruthers5535]

I think a really interesting representation of mermaids was The Lighthouse, it showed them in such a mysterious and terrifying light, and I think receiving little to no information about them (or really most things going on in the movie) just adds to the horror of them. It also helps, in my mind, that there is a sort of modern docility attached to mermaids, so when shown in this context, its really jarring and powerful. But yes, I agree completely with your opinions on the half fish folk.

[@psykopathic6548]

So not 100% specific to this thread but a series that added religion quite well. The Demon Cycle books that begin with Warded Man. They are great and I've never heard you mentioned them.

[@AscendantStoic]

5:00 I'll have to disagree, what makes for a good story/book is neither entirely subjective nor entirely objective, it's almost 50/50, 50% of what makes a good story good is writing craftsmanship, objective rules and guidelines that accumulated over hundreds of years, stuff that works, otherwise we wouldn't have writing schools and hundreds of books on the basics of writing and how to write grammatically correct prose, how to properly build tension, develop characters, build worlds and pace a story, there are established rules for what constitutes good writing and most of them work and have worked for decades, the more basic the rule the longer it has been in practice. Sure you can try to break some of these rules (like making a story or book where the events all take place in one small location) but you have to have a very good understanding of those rules before you mess with them otherwise you make things far worse, if you immediately start writing stories by trying to break rules we get a lot of stupid poorly written crap and stupid fads like the "subvert your expectations" crap going on these days, as for the subjective 50%, that's mostly the genre, the themes, the morality of the characters, the messages behind the work, that's always going to be subjective.

[@StergiosMekras]

On the subject of OG monsters that totally changed appearance... Gorgons. White the hotness factor varied per telling, they had more in common with succubi than the lamiae with snake hair they are often depicted as (thanks Harryhausen...).

[@Nasser851000]

0:00 Does daniel have a cough? XD

[@jackinthebox1993]

I thought he was just beatboxing... Terribly, but I digress

[@mischarowe]

It startled the sH*!t out of me because my volume was up from another video. ;)

[@bookmarksbowsprits1183]

May have already been said but central and northern Slavic and Russ (Russian) folk myths and monsters are not seen often and some are are so flippin scary! Holy moly talk about primal fears. The only one you ever hear about is Baba Yaga but there are way more. Also I rarely see Indian myths/ mythical creatures...there is so much out there for authors to use!

[@toschrama]

Hot take: sex and sexual tension is a underused aspect in books. It is often glossed over while it does Form a good part of the human condition. I don't need it to be full tacky porn but the tension should be there.

[@CitroChannel]

I agree with the "too much medieval fantasy" compared to other genres point. But I want to see more dieselpunk or 18th century naval fantasy!

[@sillysyriac8925]

Religion is only declining in the West. It is currently rising in the East.

[@nicademous6396]

The mic is working great. The peaks are not near as high. I miss you waving dangerous objects with a clip mic though. My favorite horror is the slow decent into madness or just the thing in the dark. Anything that slowly drives you mad, weakens your will, then possesses always has my vote. Or, some ancient evil misunderstood thing that lives in the dark. Wrap them together and I'm happy. Old Gods, ancient forgotten gods. Throw some American Gods themes with powers killing and destroying. 100%

[@SkywalkerAni]

Religion in Fantasy can be a great addition to a story, if it's done well. Tales of Symphonia is a great video game, and deals with religion and what can happen if a church is corrupt. Similarly, the Wheel of Time also has a fascinating concept in that the Creator and DO are universally known, so everyone believes in the same things, and the DO is both the source of evil and free will. I'm just rambling now.

[@kitfairchild9784]

God, Tales of Symphonia was such a good game. I did not see that plot twist coming at the Tower of Salvation but I knew something had to happen because the GameCube had 2 discs and we were still on the first😂

[@TheScarvig]

i guess in most fantasy worlds the "religion" simply works differently than in the real world, because oftentimes the deities actually exist... many fantasy settings are polytheistic and have a whole pantheon of gods and minor deities people worship and who actually do stuff that makes them deserve worship. so we don't get preachers trying to convince others that their god is the only one

[@justingreen6914]

The portrayal the beliefs of in Asoiaf is beautiful. Sir Davos survives an impossible situation through turning to his faith in the Mother. John Snow rejects a very tempting offer by immaginining the destruction of the Hart tree. Even "Reak" spends time crying to a Hart tree dispite the fact it's his adopted Gods and not the gods he claimed to take pride in.