LETS DEBATE: FANTASY RELIGIONS 🙏

[@josepher9071]

Hot take: Electricity is our world's magic system.

[@Nepthu]

Interesting. It's hidden in plain site. You may like this short doc about the dangers of electricity when it was first put in homes in the 1900s. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iZy7qnaliqiYgZI

[@NorthernDruid]

Nah, our sci-fi/fantasy wordbuilding gimmick is metals. Functionally different from other groups of atoms and it's in basically everything, from our blood to our tools to our advnced tech (like copper wiring).

[@reidwallace4258]

Eh, I'd say physics, if a nuke isn't ultima idk what is.

[@SenorTallon]

It literally is in American Gods!

[@McFlingleson]

All the laws of physics discovered after the year 1700 or so are our world's magic system.

[@danielnorris4848]

"No one like a religious Zealot. Don't be a religious zealot" gestures to skull WHAT ARE YOU NOT TELLING US DANIEL!!!

[@a.morphous66]

The Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t go to Daniel’s house anymore

[@jdooms]

@@a.morphous66 just ask to be put on the blacklist / list of people who can't be saved. Most witnesses will never bother thát address ever again. (That list is a real thing)

[@a.morphous66]

@@jdooms I was just making a joke about the skull and where it came from, but thanks for letting me know about that.

[@FirstFallSnow]

He's not telling us to to be religious zealots.

[@painandsorrowcards]

@@jdooms A couple came to my house once. They opened the gate to walk to the house (beware of dog sign was ignored). They got about 12 steps before the two great Danes I had at the time came sprinting around the house. They left in a hurry dropping several books and pamphlets on the way. I haven't seen them since and it's been a while.

[@GalacticReads]

"Stupidity knows no creed" preach

[@nathanielvann5524]

You beat me to this quote by 22 minutes

[@mischarowe]

Oh yes. Stupid people are how we know that no creed is inherently worse or better by definition.

[@SirGrimothy]

@@mischarowe except naz8s

[@Arowrath]

I need this on a T-shirt.

[@ChiIIChief]

This is a new favorite quote of mine

[@KingofCrimsonKings]

I want to see more tinfoil hat conspiracist characters trying to debunk religions with nonsensical theories. Instead of the logical ones.

[@overlorde7526]

Or the other way around. We need more tinfoil hats period. I want a tinfoil hat. Do you sell tinfoil hats?

[@analogfile5012]

No, we need more aluminum foil. Sure fire protection against mind control there.

[@beverlyreviews]

A story could be set from the perspective of a conspiracist who is on the run from the religion

[@killfacebalor2474]

YES!!!!!!!! YES YES YES!!!!! SI!!! HAI!!! JA!!!! YES!!!!

[@justinj_00]

Best take in this comment section

[@shamsham1229]

I can’t believe Daniel killed Greene Daniel and is using his skull as a prop

[@kmk1225]

Bro...how did he do our boy so dirty

[@atharvadeshpande4749]

FBI!! OPEN UP!!!

[@mathewfrance5165]

that goblin is getting REAL disheveled

[@orionhammerfall1874]

I don't understand the Greene Daniel thing... Could someone explain?

[@Katastra_]

"And now over to Greene Daniel for the weather" *camera zooms in on skull* "oh"

[@timothysoeder1544]

As a Christian and a writer, I generally can't sand it when the religious or non religious folk are completely either vilified or praised. Both sides have issues and unflattering histories. In the stories where I include Christian aspects, I don't shy away from including unflattering aspects, sometimes even atrocities, and arguments from both sides. Ultimately characters are still people that are flawed, and flawed people disagree.

[@Arowrath]

There were a lot of Christian fantasy novels I read growing up (The Circle by Ted Dekker for example) that had the bad guys be hypocritical religious people and I always appreciated that.

[@timothysoeder1544]

@@Arowrath For my stories, some of my main characters are those that are the most critical/against religion.

[@joshcarlucci9712]

I took inspiration for my main character from my very religious friend. She taught me a lot about what religion can mean to people. So my character is a monk and he’s an idealist who comes up against reality in really harsh ways but he keeps his idealism about what his faith should be to people and hopes to bring positive change despite everyone that wants to use his faith as a means to get above others. Would you be interested in a story like that? I’m not religious myself but I found myself really connecting to his story

[@joshcarlucci9712]

nan Hey there’s not too many non religious people in my book. The most obvious one is Quentyn but he’s kind of a shitty guy who’s trying to relearn how to be good. Religion doesn’t teach him that though. Independence does though like emotional independence

[@willmangrum3686]

Bless you, brother in Christ.🙏

[@astraestus8828]

Daniel talking to a skull is exactly what I was waiting to see.

[@DMR013]

I was waiting for Daniel to start quoting Hamlet.

[@donniedewitt9878]

music lover same thing I’m suprised he didn’t reference. Probably just hasn’t read it

[@paconotaco]

@@DMR013 "Alas, poor Yorick... I knew him well"

[@mariebourgot4949]

@@DMR013 ^^

[@SloanePaoPow]

Magic and religion don't always have to be related in a story. In some stories, magic is explained more as an inherent aspect of the tech or science. Like the physics and biology have qualities that are magical as part how they function within that universe. All people in the book can access or understand magic, but they may disagree on if it has divine origins or not.

[@rysaarcher]

Yes! I kept thinking this.

[@danielfawcett3991]

To reverse a saying, sufficiently regular magic is indistinguishable from physics.

[@frankm.2850]

A great example of this is Full Metal Alchemist, where magic is literally a science that anyone can learn, and the only thing that distinguishes the main character is his skill and ability to use magic without the supports most people require.

[@SantosAl]

@@frankm.2850 Except that is not completely true, the "Truth" exists, also the Gate and the "Entity" living in it (Who all three might be the same being) which probably makes Alchemy possible.

[@maxpowers9129]

If magic can be scientifically explained, then it stops being magic and instead becomes science fiction. I would go as far as to say that while you can have magic without gods, it's impossible to have gods without magic. Otherwise, the "gods" are just advanced aliens and stop being gods.

[@UdyKumra]

tbh I feel like Brandon Sanderson has a LOT of religious characters who are not cult members or zealots, like Shallan or Navani in Stormlight.

[@PezzaTheFlezza]

Plus his biggest Atheist (Jasnah) is very well written

[@barbershopbible]

I feel like the Stormlight religion is lame. No one even talks about it

[@faultier1158]

@@PezzaTheFlezza Jasnah is the calculating & scientist type though. You could also look at Kaladin, who usually doesn't seem to think or care about religion, but who mentions that [something getting explained by religion in the book] is a bit too convenient. And those people are actually by far the most common type of atheist: someone who isn't religious, but who isn't involved in the discussion around that topic enough to apply the labels "atheist" or "agnostic" (hot take: those are the same thing, as both don't believe unless there's evidence) to themselves. They are specially common in countries with lower rate of religiousness. In the case of Kaladin, the common people are less expected to conform to religious ideals as the nobles are, so "don't care much" is an attitude that a commoner could fall into reasonably well.

[@PezzaTheFlezza]

Faultier Jasnah’s a bit of a trope, but she’s very well done. She behaves like a real person, not the caricature that is often present of the skeptics atheist. Kaladin is a different kind, he has lost faith in any God due to how shit his life has been. But I’m closer to Jasnah an like to see an accurate portrayal of that kind of person

[@ethanpurcell7007]

He was the first person I thought of during this whole discussion, especially with the evolution of Dalinar and the ardent in Oathbringer (forgot his name)

[@Marie45610]

"Stupidity knows no Creed" needs to be a t-shirt

[@cameronqueen8202]

I think regarding the point at 20:26, ASOIAF is a good example of this happening. There are many gods in Westeros and Essos and it is never confirmed whether they exist of not. Even with the Red God, Melisandre has these magical powers that she claims are giving to her by the Red God, but it is never confirmed whether or not they come from a god or from somewhere else.

[@joemoe650]

Agree. Another great thing about the religions in ASOIF , is the large variety of both moral and zealous characteristics. From the sparrow fanatics to simple traveling sections who just want to help lol

[@dbrickell89]

That's exactly what I was thinking during that segment. I think Martin did an excellent job of not showing that any of the gods are necessarily real. Magic obviously exists but it's mysterious and no one understands it so it doesn't necessarily come from any gods.

[@cameronqueen8202]

@@dbrickell89 I agree, and I love the mystery that we as readers don't know whether the Seven or the Old Gods or the Red God or any of the others are real or not.

[@Jack-kx5rf]

One of my favourite fan theories is that they're all the same god but they all worship it differently.

[@conormeehan.]

@@Jack-kx5rf That’s heavily implied

[@joshwilliams4286]

“Stupidity knows no creed.” - Daniel Greene, a recent addition to the Hall of Spitting Straight Facts

[@leech1355]

*Sazed has entered the chat*

[@jaredpoulter6762]

Sazed's faith journey is one of my favorite things about mistborn era 1.

[@leech1355]

Jared Poulter it’s pretty much what kept me going in era 1

[@goldenspiral6008]

My favourite Mistborn character so far.

[@AtaraxianWist]

When every faith is wrong, but you match the prophecies perfectly: "Maybe I AM god?"

[@muhammadhashir6136]

I was thinking of sazed the entire time

[@StarlitSeafoam]

You could always do what the Elder Scrolls has done: Look, here are three versions of this legend; they all have some similarities, but also differences! Now go debate which one is true! It's actually pretty brilliant, though; most agree on major points, but disagree on minor ones. For example, we know for a fact that the Divines created the mortal world, but we don't know if A) the elves are right and Lorkahn tricked the other Divines into it and then punished him for it by ripping out his heart or B) men are right and Lorkahn convinced the Divines to knowingly sacrifice themselves and Lorkahn gave his heart to help keep the mortal world stable. So, you could do something similar, and then have different cultures adopt different versions of the legend as the "right" one, which could lead to some interesting conflicts or ways of understanding the world and their place within it.

[@StarlitSeafoam]

I would like to note that there is no debate about whether the Divines exist, but their IS debate about their nature and personalities because they can only interact very minimally with the world (grant blessings from their shrines, etc) because they sacrificed most of themselves to create the world. Magic is not tied to them; you can study magic without having to pay any respect to the Divines or Deadra or other beings that exist in Aetherius or Oblivion. You can gain more power by making pacts with them, if you wish, but you don't have to. Magic is like a force of nature. It just is, and with enough study, anyone can manipulate it.

[@thesepretzelssuckass247]

I was looking for this comment, Elder Scrolls nails religion in my opinion and there depiction of atheism with the ancient Dwemer was really well done

[@rmjwinfrey5722]

Yess this comment I’ve been looking for someone bringing this up

[@derrickcrowe3888]

I'm late, but just like everyone else her, was hoping someone brought this up. Almost every time a comment mentioned wanting to see something more, I thought "You should check out Elder Scrolls lore."

[@willd2239]

I really wish there were elder scrolls books

[@joldomort5515]

Another 30+ mins of Daniel content? We’ve been blessed

[@jackinthebox1993]

"There's a joke in there somewhere... 🤔 I'll think of it later 😴"

[@SirGrimothy]

@@jackinthebox1993 porn joke? I'm confused

[@emma7933]

@@SirGrimothy "we've been blessed" on a video about religion

[@ANT96-x8d]

Unpopular opinion:Every fantasy character who is either a devoted Christian or someone of a Christian-based religion should not be portrayed as evil and vicious villains. We need more positive and sometimes heroic portrayals of those character types. Any responses?

[@jackinthebox1993]

@@ANT96-x8d Aang is very religious, even though his religion is basically Buddhist ☸

[@ulrichbrodowsky5016]

By the way: There are some people who genuine believe that the earth is flat. Of course there could be people e.g. in middle earth to question the religion

[@angiebennett578]

I work with a guy who thinks the earth is flat. Like seriously. Someone told me and I thought they were joking.... no it’s government propoganda according to him. And the best freaking part is we work for an airline.

[@davidgreene616]

They probably don't though. There's a good book by an author named Hugo Mecer called "Not born yesterday" that explains this well, but people who profess ridiculous beliefs more often then not are doing it to be part of a club or, there passive beliefs not active beliefs, or are just trying to seem interesting. Maybe even all 3.

[@ifihadfriends437]

Angie Bennett but why would the government bother to maintain a spherical earth myth.... what is the point

[@Inka.R.]

A friend of mine used to date a conspiracy theorist. Like full on, nothing we're taught in any science class and nothing that the government of any country on earth tells us can possibly be true. Maybe he believed in maths at least, I never thought to ask him. It was fun for a bit talking to him, but when I pressed him on whether he thought it was likely that not only pretty much every scientist in a relevant field believed that the earth is round, there is a mathematical formula to determine that based on the shadows of tall objects that they figured out, what 2000 years ago,and you can see it in thousands of photos, some of which have been taken by ordinary people like him. He kinda powered down and told me to do my own research and that was the end of that. My friend had been trying to shut down the conversation since we started and I didn't want to press the matter. Pretty sure he still believes what he did and my argument never made a dent in his full-hearted belief

[@ulrichbrodowsky5016]

@@davidgreene616 That may actually be true for a lot of conspiracy theorists, but my point still stands: Even when it is proven that there is a god, some people will still deny it

[@PezzaTheFlezza]

Glad you found my “FAQ” example humorous!

[@Nepthu]

I LOVED that! It made me spit out my drink. It also made me think that most fantasy or polytheistic religions don't seem to have a lot of intricate doctrines that require layers of meaning. They seem more black and white IMO.

[@AYMfilms]

It was gr8 mate Xd

[@nicolashernandezvidal6040]

Daniel breaking his chair over Aslan was the best thing I’ve seen this year

[@treenutspeanuts]

two minutes into the video and this is already the most chaotic greene screene session. more of this please :)

[@Sensko]

"Did Lewis have a bias when writing the Narnia books?" Yes. How is that even a question?

[@eleanorjones26407]

True dat, everyone is biased

[@Duiker36]

People who see bias everywhere are just showing their bias.

[@Sensko]

@@Duiker36 People who see a series of a VERY thinly veiled Jesus reference repeatedly saving the day that ends with everyone ending up in a blissful existence minus the girl who grew to like boys and fancy clothes and go "nope, no bias here" show a lack of reading comprehension.

[@Nitenshi]

@@Duiker36 I mean, everyone has biases.

[@jasonbolding3481]

@@Sensko Susan issue had nothing to do with growing up to like boys & fancy clothes. That's not what was said

[@UdyKumra]

I LOVE that random skit in the middle of the video at 4:45

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

The God-Daniel seems to spend a lot of time brushing His teeth.

[@josephwatkins1190]

@@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t well cleanliness is next to godliness

[@minimumviableplayer1402]

I don't think GRRM ridicules the faith of the Seven as the hot take suggest, Cat and Davos are important POVs that routinely include their faith in their inner monologue. Davos struggles to manage his faith in the seven with his loyalty to Stannis that suddenly adopts a different religion and even burns the statues of the seven. Catelyn prays to the seven and makes an effort to understand Ned's gods. In fact there are often examples of genuine followers and people ridiculing basically all faiths, be it R'lohr, the seven, the old gods, the drowned god, the mother of mountains and even the many faced god. I would go further and say that it is one of strong points of the setting that makes it feel lived in. There are many examples that make the world nuanced, but every character usually has a good reason for their beliefs.

[@angela_merkeI]

"More Fantasy with themes from outside of Europe" YES, but: Even from within Europe, its mostly Christianity, Norse and Graeco-Roman stuff. How many Illyrian, Tengri, Slavic, Finno-Ugric and Basque fantasy etc. is there?

[@robertblume2951]

Playing crusader kings a lot recently and looking up that stuff. At a generic level there isn't that much difference between the indo-European religions. Perun, Perkunas, and Thor being the best examples but also Rod/Tengri.

[@MeanGuy969]

Most of them are just basic polytheism. "Old gods" religion in ASOIF in a basic way describes that religion.

[@vincentthendean7713]

I thought Tengri are more of a west Asian thing. Also we need more ancient Egypt stuff, or heck pre-Islamic Arab.

[@angela_merkeI]

@@vincentthendean7713 Tengrism was practised by nomads from asia to Europe. Some examples in Europe were the Avars, Bolghars (who became the Bulgarians), the Magyars (Hungarians), the Pechenegs, the Khazars, etc.

[@angela_merkeI]

@@robertblume2951 Superficially maybe. But each pantheon had differences. Same goes with the abrahamic faiths. And the myths and folkore also have differences. Eastern Slavic folklore for example has a unique mix of Slavic, Ugric and Turkic influences and Stories like Koshei the Immortal, Tugarin, Baba Yaga, etc.

[@fakjbf3129]

20:27 GRRM has stated that he plans on never confirming whether the gods are real or not. Magic is definitely real, and there are people able to wield magic who believe that their power comes from various deities, but there will never be confirmation that their beliefs are actually true.

[@lennysmileyface]

There's a theory that the 'gods' or at least some of them are actually just Bloodraven or Bran messing with the Weirwood network.

[@Luke-nn4pm]

@@lennysmileyface the old gods are definitely just greenseers/weirwood hivemind IMO.

[@majkus]

You overstate the certainty of religion in Tolkien's world. It is critically important, in particular, that humans do _not_ know what lies beyond death, and have to take it on faith that mortality is the gift of the One to Men. Not even the Elves know what the fate of Men is. Arwen told Aragorn, at his deathbed, "For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." For Arwen, too, had to take it on faith, when she renounced her immortality, that there would be a life 'beyond the circles of the world.' In contrast, the temptation of the Númenoreans by Sauron - the seduction of the Nazgûl, and the corruption and downfall of Númenor itself - depended on his ability to persuade Men that the idea of mortality as a divine gift was a lie. In short, this whole idea of faith (or lack thereof) and mortality is absolutely central to Tolkien's work (and, I fear, will be given short shrift when Amazon adapts the Second Age material). The bit in Jackson's Return of the King movie where Gandalf gives Pippin a description of the afterlife, in words from the book that describe Frodo's first sight of the Undying Lands, is thus doubly wrong. Gandalf is not permitted to reveal the fate of Men (and Hobbits), even if he knows it, which he very well may not. And that fate is certainly _not_ the 'far green country' he described. You say that these matters are easy in Tolkien - just ask Gandalf. No, not in Tolkien; just in Jackson. On a separate point, have you ever read Diane Duane's 'Young Wizard' books (So You Want To Be a Wizard, et seq.)? Her work has a deeply religious and spiritual base, without being Christian polemic. This is one reason why I prefer her books to the Harry Potter books (which came later), in which Rowling treads rather too close to Mammy Yokum's dictum that 'good is better than evil because it's nicer' and leaves it at that.

[@timswabb]

I agree. There are plenty of doubters in Middle-earth. And before The Silmarillion was published, it was far from obvious that the Valar were real. Even after reading The Silmarillion, it’s far from obvious that the Valar are still active in Middle Earth in the Third Age, or that Eru intervenes in the story. Even Gandalf’s resurrection is ambiguous if you don’t read Tolkien’s letter about it.

[@ChrisBrackman]

Good explanation. Gandalf isn't a prophet and he wasn't sent to provide divine revelation. His role was to assist the people of Middle Earth against Sauron.

[@SpectrumDT]

Elves may have some limited contact with the Valar, but Men certainly don't. There is no indication that the Valar gave Men any instructions on how to live a good life, except perhaps on Numenor. And very few people know what Gandalf really is; most people assume he's just a "wizard". So Daniel is dead wrong here.

[@SpectrumDT]

Likewise in WOT: We know the One Power exists, but that tells us literally nothing about how to live a good life nor what the afterlife - if any - is like.

[@Duiker36]

@@SpectrumDT In fairness, "how to live a good life" isn't strictly the province of religion. Plenty of entirely people have taken on that question without throwing in a religious element. And in WoT, the One Power is about as religious as Mat's staff. There's _no_ religion in WoT: only history and prophecy.

[@grendelentertainment9642]

After reading the comments, y’all need Aslan.

[@theflickchick9850]

I should start saying that.

[@angelamccollister]

Nope. Not everyone is Christian.

[@ChristmasLore]

We really, really don't. You, on the other hand, need "critical thinking".

[@theflickchick9850]

They never said that. It was a joke.

[@theflickchick9850]

It was a joke. Calm down.

[@SanguineSidereal]

Yeah Christianity has been involved in some really terrible stuff throughout history. Though it is worth noting, not as a refutation of this thesis but rather an expansion of it, that if you look beyond European History this is true of nearly every religion that gets intermixed with politics. State Buddhism and Hindu have been used to justify horrific acts, including ethnic cleansing. State Islam often tied to really bad things. In general if a religion gets deeply intertwined with the act of the state, represents a significant majority of the people ruled by the state, and said state has minorities or neighbors of different religions bad things happen. Edit: I'm using "the state" as a broad catch all for secular power. It doesn't necessarily have to take the form of a governmental institution

[@VicRibeiro777]

@@calebmauer1751 what you truly believe will bubble to the surface and influence your political views mate... That said, church and state should be separate.

[@VicRibeiro777]

"Yeah Christianity has been involved in some really terrible stuff throughout history." Name something from the first 400 years of Christianity please... It was only after it became a state religion, and many false converts claimed to be christians that the terrible stuff starts creeping in. Just saying.

[@SanguineSidereal]

@@VicRibeiro777 Seeing as my thesis statement was that when Religion and Secular power mix terrible things happen I don't see why I would have to defend it with examples from when Christianity was a persecuted minority. As that wasn't what I argued. You aren't disagreeing with me. The second half of your comment is literally in direct support to my argument.

[@bigblueshoe777]

@@VicRibeiro777 The conversion and reign of Tiridates III in Armenia led to forced conversions, destruction of property, and actual battles, and he died around 330 AD, so there's an example that fits your criteria. Again, however, the religion coupled with the power of the state was clearly an issue here. I wholly agree with the "just read Dune" comment. We should be extremely wary of religion wielded by powerful entities, especially when it comes to our own. I'm Christian myself, and am frightened for what my beliefs have become (generally) in America today.

[@SethTurnerPrinting]

If you think Christianity has been a destructive religion, try looking at the history of communism.

[@ujrkingdom]

Concerning atheists/agnostics in history, there was a group of material reductionists in India known as Charvakas, they along with their contemporary Buddhists and even Jains did not believe in a "God" or more aptly a "Creator God" as we would think today. But unlike Buddhists and Jains their philosophy was predicated on the idea that all phenomena that exist can be perceived through the senses and that there was nothing beyond it. Their school ultimately died out, probably due to a lack of popularity in relation to their contemporaries who had grand metaphysical philosophies as could be derived from the Upanishads and other texts and perhaps due to subsequent invasions from Turks and Mughals. I would think similar schools and philosophies existed in other parts of the world especially Greece and Rome.

[@SS-rr7by]

Damn Daddy Daniel Delivering Delicous Discussion

[@deanryanmartin]

Lots of Ds there. lol

[@SS-rr7by]

@@deanryanmartin that's the point. Devilish Daddy Daniel Delivering the Delicious D's

[@deanryanmartin]

@@SS-rr7by Yeah, that Devilish Dark Daniel

[@billyalarie929]

what is this V for Vendetta?

[@gokbay3057]

points for alliteration.

[@CaylasCapsule]

In response to the hot take about paladins in D&D: This video made me realize that my paladin is basically a very loyal and trusting employee of Pelor.

[@spidermarkm.184]

Pelor of the burning hate ? :V

[@scaevola]

Gonna be honest I feel like all those people being like "there is no room for spirituality or argument when ur gods are proven real" are just wrong. Just because someone knows a god exists, that does not mean they agree with the values of that god of the values of that god's followers.

[@AzrauG]

Big agree……it’s no longer a problem of belief in particular gods, but whether or not you believe they should be worshiped based on the domains they control and the cultural values they embody

[@SantosAl]

EXACTLY!!! The same way that people on our world debate Ideology, you could argue about the tenants of each god and what is "best". ex: I like sexy time and that order god is too prohibitive can be a thing.

[@mgg9416]

I would actually go one step further and say that as soon as a God is known to exist, he is no longer a God in the sense of a religion. The point of a religion is that you don't know it to be true and you have to believe it. As soon as you know something to be true, it isn't a religion anymore. This is perfectly illustrated with Marvel where Thor, Odin, Zeus, all of those gods exist, but characters like Daredevil are still religious. Because there is always still room for spirituality. Just imagine that we found empirical proof for the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient God. Somewhere someone would still believe that there could be more than what we know.

[@leanndiaz684]

@@mgg9416 They go from God in the religious sense to just extremely powerful beings. In rick riordan's magnus chase series there is a muslim character who sees the confirmed norse gods this way. She is still Muslim and still prays and fasts.

[@Rougarou99]

Pulling from sci-fi, it reminds me a bit of the Ori from Stargate. In their home galaxy, they all knew of the Ori, and agreed they were practically omnipotent, but just disagreed over whether they should be worshiped.

[@runningcommentary2125]

Daniel is finally using a mic stand that won't kill him if he trips over.

[@ChristmasLore]

Deceiving. Probably way more dangerous than the knives.

[@LinkingYellow]

It's him from the future after he fell on a later mic stand

[@Inka.R.]

That one still has teeth, if he is as clumsy as I am, he could still kill himself. It's an improvement though 👍

[@kosanarmax4158]

The thing about God's having different personalities or ideas in different places is kinda explored in Rick Riordan's follow up to the Percy Jackson series where he introduces the Roman personas of the Greek gods he introduced before.even the gods have to deal with their Greek and Roman sides being in conflict

[@ocean3262]

not to mention that all gods canonically exist in the riordanverse (see kane chronicles and magnus chase)

[@victoriathomason6496]

I love how respectful you are towards everyone while holding your ground during such a sensitive topic to people I love it (and you still make it funny and enjoyable to watch)!!

[@mariotrujillo8860]

The whole "our god is better than your god" comments made me think of a sports fans............ A story centering around gods recruiting a team worshipers to have fights to the death to see who rules the universe...... Does anyone else think that's a good idea?

[@Faxeable]

You mean, like, Chaos teams in Blood Bowl?

[@mariotrujillo8860]

@@Faxeable just looked that(thank by the way) and yeah basically,

[@robertblume2951]

Not rules the universe but areas and planes would include the Portals of the Infinite series by Jan Van Stry. Chaos vs Law goes back to 3 hearts and 3 lions by Poul Andersen.

[@procrastinator99]

ANIMORPHS

[@morganrobinson8042]

Read Small Gods. It really lays it out this kind of tribalism pretty well, without taking things too seriously..

[@Jasonwolf1495]

Ya know I think the point Dan made around the middle of the episode about different cultural myths to draw from being way more important than I realized. Like the easiest example I can give for something that is popular in the US now but isnt western is all of the Japanese stories. I might not read novels from japan, but I consume their media and I know a hell of a lot more about shintoism than i do about norse mythology at this point. If we want more stories from cultures outside the western sphere we need to be buying from cultures outside the western sphere. Once those are brought to popularity they will become things that more authors from different groups want to talk about. Again Japan has this pretty well cornered for cyberpunk where there is just an assumption that Japan will be a major part of the future cyberpunk world.

[@aplatypusguy27]

Hot take: This new format is great, don't get me wrong, but I think that now it's going to be really difficult for people to share their random and specific hot takes. If somebody has a hot take, but it won't easily fall into one of the categories that you give, then they aren't going to get the opportunity to share it. I still prefer this new format, but I want the weird and wacky takes too!

[@MeanGuy969]

Nah, this one is much better. It's ....clean and simple.

[@kmk1225]

Agreeee

[@gokbay3057]

@@lukas.dambrauskas_2046 seconded

[@Jellybeansatdusk]

Perhaps bimonthly miscellaneous hot takes?

[@chasingthesavior7490]

This was such an encouraging video! I've only just recently begun including faith/religion more blatantly in my fantasy writing. It took a lot of effort to break away from the idea that including it would automatically be called preachy and, so far, the nuances I'm delving into have led to a greater sincerity within the narrative. After seeing this video, I can imagine the story receiving a more positive response than I originally expected. Thank you so much for taking the time to address what can become a very heated topic. Hail Aslan! ;)

[@Nasser851000]

It's time to D-D-D-D-Debate!

[@morganrobinson8042]

I actually agree with the re-branded Christianity comment's conclusion, but not out of any religious or historical scruples. My problem is that in every case I've seen where somebody does base a religion on Christianity or Islam, they never do the leg work of establishing that religion in the text. It ends up being a foregone conclusion that they are understood as a renaming of extant religions establishment and that they are evil, when at most only a bit of lip service is paid to point the readier to the real religion to associate them to. And this in stories where zealots and corrupt priests are primary antagonists. They just don't bother to actually detail tenets of the religion or the character of their followers at all aside from that general association, so you end up literally with a real religion with a new name in places where it really should be much different by other aspects of the world. It's basically using a placeholder as part of a final draft, it's just sloppy.

[@BostonMBrand]

While they are definitely based on religions IRL, I think Terry Pratchett has what your looking for. I know Daniel pushed Small Gods a lot, but it definitely does this quite well. While there are definitely many noticeable parallels between Omism and real religions like Christianity and Islam, he does a pretty job of establishing the background and history of Omism

[@maxwelljohnson5221]

You need that green tshirt so we can better read the questions/hot takes

[@acediadekay3793]

20:10 I went to Rhodes (Greece) a couple of years ago and visited the Islands own Temple of Athena (Lindos). This was of course very interesting, but I also came across a very cool story. (I can't remember the story supper well, but I will try my best). As you might know, all males born into a viking family learned to fight, this was of course partly do to the fact that they was preparing for Ragnarok, but also a way of insuring the future of the next generation. Since the oldest son got all of the gold, land and valuables, did all of the other sons have to either get an aprinenship, steal some gold and land from somebody else or become a mercenary. A lot of those Norsemen who those the latter, traveled to Constantinople and became part of The Varangian Guard. This created a problem for the Norsemen, as the Byzantines was Christians and the Norsemen was obviously Norse. But then they discovered The Temple of Athena on Rhodes, learned that Athena was the Goddess of Wisdom, Handicraft, and Warfare, and came to the conclusion that Athena and Freya (The Goddess of Love, Gold and War) must me one and the same God. So Vikings (serving in The Varangian Guard) would sail from Constantinople to Rhodes, pray and make sacrifices in front of Athena (inside Athena's Temple) in hope of luck and good fortune on the battlefield.

[@goldenspiral6008]

I´m a student from classical studies.I can´t confirm your story, but similar things have happened. It´s called syncretism.

[@acediadekay3793]

@@goldenspiral6008 As I said, it was just a story I was told. I sadly have no source or anything. Even if it is true, then the scope of the story is still very unclear. The story does sounds like something one guy once did, but with every retelling it became more and more generalised, to a certain point where it just sounds like a thing everybody did. Or maybe not, I really have no idea. So take it with a gram of salt.

[@davidweihe6052]

Minor note: Early Germanic societies practiced ultimogeniture (inheritance by the youngest son), not primogeniture (inheritance by the eldest). Lets the the sons of Hrognvald The Powerful of More, first Yarl of the Orkneys, in order of birth (from the Orkneyinga Saga): Hrolf The Walker had to raid the Seine, and eventually founded Normandy. Hrollaug had to settle in Iceland. Turf-Einar, the youngest son, inherited the Orkneys, and his descendants ruled there until it was given to Scotland as a dowry.

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

"What would happen if magic appeared in TODAY'S world?" Shadowrun: am I a joke to you?

[@bigooft9521]

I literally thought of Shadowrun as that came up lol

[@robertblume2951]

It actually happened a few times in the 70's and eighties but ya shadow run is the top of the magic reappearing books.

[@anonymous71207]

Parahumans is what I thought of, though it's superpowers instead of magic

[@greysonjones5429]

Saaaammmeeee DUUUUUUDES

[@Luka1180]

It's very clear in the Christian Bible that magic IS real, within the Christian lore and idea that is. But its source is said to not be that of God, and therefore immoral. This source may be a false God, which most Christians, and even the Bible at times, would state is actually Satan in reality. Now I am not saying I believe in any of this, but it's in the Bible. That's all I am saying.

[@vincentthendean7713]

Ah darn, I missed the entry for this hot take. Oh well. Better late than never. Too many treat religion and the religious as monolithic. That's why there's a lot of takes that say not all religion should be bad or not all should be good (and that depends on your definition of "good"). Of course they're different. We can look at the interaction between Christianity and various Germanic faiths in the 800s. Both preach that dying for your faith is good. Both group has fought each other over their faith. However, one actively encourage combat while the other discourage it. Keep in mind this is 200+ years before the crusades, which is a different thing entirely. Even if there is a unifying religion, there could be disagreements that eventually grow big enough to warrant a large conflict. Looking at Christianity again, there's the east-west schism in 1054 which separated the Catholics and the Orthodox. They're still separated to this day. Also don't get me started with the protestant reformation in the 1500s and the wars that followed it. If you ask all these groups, they would agree on a few of the biggest tenets. Going into the details are where the disagreements starts. It all comes down to the core dogmas, really. What's the main shtick. Find out what's the best example to follow, and follow it. If the gods or prophets are warlords, then the followers stance about war will mimic that. If said gods or prophet never said anything about farming or governing, then the followers likely won't have any unifying stance on those topics. However, they will try to do them in relation to the main dogma. If a follower is acting opposite of those dogmas, then they are not considered good (again, depends on your definition of good). That's why there could be atheistic religion. I know it's an oxymoron, but it's an interesting phenomena. The rejection of a higher power, but the reverence of a person, secular group or philosophy. Those things become the core dogma. Their followers are expected to follow them. Otherwise they are not "good". If most people depicted in a fantasy religion is considered "bad", but there're some people that are "good", it says nothing about the belief itself. It might be that the "bad" people are actually good believers, and the "good" people aren't familiar enough with the core beliefs or are actively disagreeing with them. That's why the whole of idea of "zealots bad, moderates good" is a tired trope imo. The reason the trope is popular due to the nature of the medium. The zealots will most likely have clear cut opinions on subjects that readers might agree or disagree with. That makes them unpopular to a lot of people. Conversely, moderates aren't as pushy and compromise even if it tweaks and bends their beliefs. A lot of people might find that more tolerable to their own opinions. However, It entirely depends on whether you agree with their main beliefs. If the core dogma is preservation of human life, a lot of people (I hope) would prefer the zealot over the moderate. If you read this far, congrats. Here's a potato. Edit: Corrected the general timeframe of the Protestant reformation.

[@varisugocsay1152]

Yes is the typical "Centrum" and "Far-XY" argument, who deside even what is the "Centrum"? End what if the "Centrum" is bad some way? What the morality stance where we dare said a action is bad? Our own? But we not live here and grown up in thas culture, we have right for condemn them? I think this whole argument infested with this "We in the present have the best morals ever" attitude and it is sickens me. - Respect From Hungary

[@eleanorjones26407]

Thanks or the potato

[@3Andzia3]

I like potatoes. And also - I'm really glad you brought the "atheistic religion" up, because it can certainly be a thing...

[@jordansorenson698]

Ahh. So a religion based off of a very simple idea that we can all agree on and be technically zealots to would be the answer to many issues right? So preservation of life. That sounds good. Except for in cases like Hitler. And unwanted babies. And human expansion into natually preserved lands. And veganism. And bacterial sanitation. And the definition of life. Wait, wasn't the whole point of this religion to be simple!?

[@OrpheusO-je9sd]

Ha. I skimmed. I now have a free potato I did not earn. What will you do now?

[@Nasser851000]

3:19 Scar: "I'm surrounded by idiots!"

[@Caezer2012]

The Elder Scrolls does a surprisingly good job of depicting religious conflict even in a world where gods regularly communicate with mortals, helped mostly by the concept that the Aedrea are powered by their worshipers. No worshipers means no god, which is why the Thalmor want to ban Talos. And then you have the Dark Elves doing their thing

[@akernis3193]

As someone who is currently writing the main religion of my setting, this was interesting and informative. Thank you for doing it ^^

[@sasimitra5871]

10:57 even if there's one deity who's publicly known and acts along with all the different cultures, you'll still find reinterpretations among the different cultures. In Star Wars, the Lassat and a few other cultures interpret the force as Ashla and Bogan, while the Jedi follow the same Force in a different manner. The Chiss see them as Skywalkers, guides in the regions of Chaos. And given how widespread the world is, some never experienced anything related to the force, so they don't even believe in the tales of Wizards wielding laser swords. There is still room for interpretation and discussion about the middle ground if you can try. EDIT: You just clarified what I'm talking about literally two minutes later.

[@plata_draconic]

An atheist in a world where the Gods are known to exist doesn't have to be a crazy person denying the reality in front of him. For example such a person could believe that the God don't actually care about the believers. The Gods are out for themselves and will only assist those that they align with those goals. Or that the Gods exist only BECAUSE we believe in them so the power they wield comes from the faithful and not the God. If the worship stopped then the God would fade. Denying religion does not necessarily have to be denying the existence of the God.

[@a.morphous66]

I’ve written a world wherein the gods demonstrably exist and interact with people, so the dichotomy of theism vs atheism has been replaced with worshippers vs non-worshippers.

[@rafaelelias2678]

Atheism is the non-belief in the existance of god, not the ideal of going against a god's word. So... If a god is *known* to exist and anybody denies that, then they are no different from flat-earthers; the "atheist" would be a 'crazy denying person'. By an atheist.

[@Valandar2]

You're describing an anti-theist, not an atheist. An atheist would deny that the "gods" are anything more than very powerful entities, not cosmic forces made manifest.

[@oneukum]

That would not work. If you can prove gods, they must have physical consequences. Look at neutrinos. Outside very exotic situations they are incosequential. Nevertheless they are a physical reality. At a certain point scepticism turns into denial of science.

[@Rynewulf]

Wouldn't that be an apostate, or a heretic of some kind? Antitheist? Declaring that you don't believe the magical super entity in front of you exists, refusing to worship is separate to atheism.

[@toptextbottomtext9833]

When you talked about how Egypt and Greece had hybrid temples and you’ve never seen in a book it kinda reminded me about the Elder Scrolls and how some gods are sort of like that. In different Religions and/or ethnic groups call the same god different names and different focuses. Akatosh as called by the Nords in TES is the god of time and dragons with all dragons/Dragonborn being his kin. However he is also known as Auriel to certain Elven groups with a focus on purity and the sun with some elves even being blessed with immunity to vampirism.

[@wingcastlereads5657]

Now I want Daniel to do a video, where he rates/debates different story pitch from his subscribers

[@captainanopheles4307]

Little known fact: the Saracens sent a letter to the Pope asking for a ceasefire in the crusades because of the Mongols.

[@lordblenkinsopp1537]

I'd say it's quite well known. The Crusaders and the Pope tried to ally with the Mongols against the Muslims to destroy them. However, these attempts failed and the Muslims defeated the Mongols at Ain Jalut, saving the Middle East, North Africa, and maybe even Europe. I'd say that the crucial Muslim victory at Ain Jalut is a more little known fact. Isn't history great?

[@Rynewulf]

@@lordblenkinsopp1537 most people are only vaguely aware of the crusades at best, the detail that the people in the Levant tried to diplomatically make peace with the Papacy so they could all deal with the Mongols is as obscure as all the post medieval crusades

[@davidweihe6052]

You want a "Little Known Fact", the Buddha was a Nestorian Saint for over fifty years, before they realized who and what he was, as opposed to having heard vague tales at first.

[@UdyKumra]

"I'm a very just observe and try to find truth in your day-to-day life person" Daniel is an existentialist confirmed

[@ulliquarahyuga7534]

20:05 the book your looking for is called Paternus. It’s ok. The main thing that kept me interested was how they connect all the religions and how much time has muddled the true histories of the world. Most of the characters revealed themselves to have multiple names and forms across multiple religions. It’s Kinda rough in the beginning but it gives you enough to keep you reading.

[@Zetamen7]

A Canticle for Leibowitz was commercial feasible and 70% of the book is theological discussion (I loved it so much)

[@Hakumeiun]

SUUUCH an underrated book. I use the quote about a house cat NOT being the same thing as a cat house literally any time I start discussing Latin (which happens more often than strictly reasonable...)

[@Nonsense116]

I'm a Christian and when you said "y'all have been the baddies more often than not." That's just plainly historically accurate. It makes me sad that you felt such a strong need to be cautious about historical fact that you mentioned the video getting backlash. Crazy world man. I'm a new fan and I've been pretty much binging these videos. I only just got back into reading and it's been really enjoyable. There's so much nuance that I can understand better now that I'm 8 years older. Those nuances adds more nutrients to the story to enjoy! Thank you for helping me understand and appreciate them!

[@AspienPadda]

Re 20:13 ... in the Riftwar series, especially the - of The Empire ones, they have short discussions on which Midkemian gods correlate to which Kelewan gods

[@DuctTapeJake]

I really liked the approach of the Temple Knights in Eddings' The Elenium. From memory a large portion of the major characters were literally Knights of the Temple, yet while it seemed as though they believed in their religion, even they struggled to take it seriously at times. They knew that some of their beliefs didn't make sense, and would have to be reminded to act more somber while partaking in some religious ceremonies. The feeling of essentially a bunch of roughneck soldiers who just happened to be working for a temple always struck me as interesting.

[@HitmonleeDeluxe]

I feel that Malazan tackled religion and gods interacting in the world in a very interesting way. Mostly in how the gods are tied to their magic and dependent on their followers, and how certain magics are dependent on one of hundreds of gods in that world.

[@mollykisthart8900]

I have so many questions for Philip Pullman about the Magisterium and how the existence of a physical manifestation of ones soul equates to a still parallel Christianity complete with the same etiological stories and similar interpretations of them. Also when did the Magisterium become an accepted world power and were there ever other beliefs in the world? So many questions that are more about my religious studies interests than the thematic ideas he explores in his work, but it doesn’t stop me from wondering.

[@Huebz]

I can’t deny it, the skits are my favorite things. Always perfection.

[@ethandunn6331]

Hey Daniel, love your work! I usually listen in to your KZbin channel on my way to work! This is more of a critic on Philip Pulman than on religion in general, but I did take issue with His Dark Materials. I'm a Christian (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) and I actually really enjoyed aspects of His Dark Materials, particularly the religious corruption, the fantasy world building, and of course the awesome bear kingdom. I will say however, that I think when authors write about religious controversy that they still need to be respectful and I Philip didn't quite act respectful particularly in the final book when important characters and allegories (like Satan and Christ) are specifically referenced and then treated disrespectfully. Granted, I have an obvious bias, but I think I would be equally uncomfortable if another active religion that wasn't my own also was treated similarly which I think has happened a lot. I think it's totally okay to talk about religious controversy in history and to comment on it, but I do think Philip in particular sometimes sounded not just critical, but hateful. Anyway, love your channel! Love the dialogue!

[@amimim69]

The same can be said about CS Lewis..

[@דניאלפרידמן-ט7מ]

I want to see more philosophical gods akin to the way the medieval Muslim and Jewish pilosophers (Ibn Rushd, Al-Farabi and Mimonides, for example) viewed the monotheistic God.

[@tobyyasutake9094]

I’ll point out Bujold’s The Curse of Chalion, where the two religions in the book agree on the same 5 gods, and they agree that four of the five are good, but they disagree on the fifth god. One religion thinks he is good, the other thinks he is a demon.

[@amaresuify]

Also they do a really good job of exploring the difference between faith and FAITH, why gods might not be all over the world messing with people, and just how much it might mess you up if a god tapped you on the shoulder and asked you to be their voice in the world. Double plus good series.

[@goldenspiral6008]

Thanks for adding more to my tbr list.

[@rachelsanders3537]

Thank you so much for being brave enough to have this discussion!

[@eleanorjones26407]

I feel like people seem to forget that more then one religion can exist within a society

[@ThexImperfectionist]

Not sure if you mean a hypothetical fantasy world or our real world, but for the latter many religions preach that their teachings are the only correct worldview - anyone else is misguided or wrong. (Sidenote: that's exactly what they teach you in cults, so let that sink in). But yeah unfortunately fundamental beliefs and tolerance for differing opinions don't often mix

[@eleanorjones26407]

​@@ThexImperfectionist Hi there! You've mentioned a lot here, so I will try and take it piece by piece. I was referring a little to both a hypothetical fantasy world and our real world because ideas in our real world are taken in by authors and tend to become a little exaggerated in their works. And yes many religions preach that their teachings are the only correct worldview--even dismissing other religions in the process. However, I think there's really only a problem when they become forceful about it. Like if I'm honest I'm not sure how someone can believe in their religion and follow that religion without arguing that their religion is the only FULLY correct worldview. I notice that a lot of non-religious people don't necessarily spend enough time with a religion to hear religious people agree with certain teachings and even defend religious practices for others. Though of course not every religious person is as respectful as that but that has been my experience at least. I think my main point with that comment though (it was two years ago when I wrote it) was that it could be interesting to show the dynamic between multiple religions in a fantasy world. In writing that, an author could really get into the intricacies of this conversation because I do believe there is validity to what you are arguing. And sorry if this was a lot I was just trying to cover each point enough :)

[@mvalthegamer2450]

True, but pure religious zealotry and absolute intolerance of other religions is rare, and requires very specific conditions. There were Muslim traders, Norse mercenaries and Lithuanian pagans in Catholic Europe for a long time, for instance. Zealotry and purges didn't really get off the ground till the Protestant Reformation, and they were fueled by the combination of the printing press, loss of faith in the traditional church, and the double punch of climate change stressing food supply and Spanish silver inflating prices, leading to worsening conditions and increased scapegoating

[@jonmcatee3116]

29:01 this is facts. Religions require faith and if God is literally standing in front of you being Himself, you do not need faith to believe in His existence or relevance.

[@leonardosimiaodeluna]

29:18 I do agree that in a fantasy world where gods are present the relationship between gods and devotees would be more alike modern structures of power, but i disagree that this make religious devotion disappear. On the contrary, there are many modern day examples of power structures with religious-like beliefs. There are current era political leaders still seen as envoys from god, various armed forces seen as holy warriors against evil-doers and, frankly, manifest destiny can only be seen as a religious belief. A think a good example would be sanderson's first mistborn book, the final empire. The Lord Ruler is a proven good, and his role is mainly of a king, but there is still a religion around him. Even among the rebellious group, people still have trouble abandoning their faith in the lord ruler, leaving behind their beliefs and they still avoid blasphemy. So, yeah, i don't think that gods being direct authority would make religions not exist.

[@theflickchick9850]

Massive Rant time: I’m Christian and I have no problem calling out the problems of the church and toxic Christians! I think it’s important! (Thank you, “Carrie”!) But I had to stop reading the second “Land of Stories” series because every evil character is a Christian. There’s a lot of problems with this: 1) It’s a far off magical world that has no idea ours exists. So how the hell do they have the same God with the same rules? What kind of God is it? ARE they Christians? Were there desciples? Did they know about the crucification? Their timeline is SLOWER than ours so they couldn’t have! It doesn’t fit the world. 2) The message Chris Colfer keeps giving is “love and forgive everyone”. And yet, the MC does not forgive her Christian father when that would’ve shown her as the better person. So the message holds nothing. 3) He says- “Magic is good, but not all fairies are good.” And “Witchcraft is bad but not all witches are bad.” And yet he shows... “Christians are bad no matter what.” 4) The allegories are just...so in your face. It’s not well-written into it at all, like Terry Pratchett or so. All in all, I was disappointed by it since I love the first Land Of Stories SO much. It feels out there, and it doesn’t flow, and sticks out in the world-building.

[@philipakins5069]

I have been waiting for this video! I'm actually surprised you were nervous about this but that may be because I think religious people like talking about and disagreeing with people about religion more than most non-religious people think. You gave me a lot to think about with your comparison of C.S. Lewis and Philip Pullman but one thing I think it misses is that the reason many Christians specifically are not a fan of his books is that it uses a gnostic understanding of the Churches beliefs which are fairly offensive to many Christians. He is also a fairly outspoken atheist which gets a little dicey when you use a not-accepted understanding of religious belief to criticize the current religions belief and you don't subscribe to either. Not saying criticism should come from outside, but you probably should take more care with the way you do so if you're an outsider. However, the same could probably be said of Lewis and Islam, so it does make me think. I think I disagree with many people about their basic assumption about religious belief in religious people. People often totally believe their god(s) are demonstrably real or have prophets that can interpret gods will, and we still have disagreements. Also, it kind of assumes that god(s) are not actually real today, which is a different discussion entirely... Love the work, keep it up!

[@starsong7725]

"We can still be friends, we can still disagree. Thats allowed" This is my favourite comment he has ever said....if only it could be applied to everything that going on in the world!

[@Arrynek01]

It really depends on what we disagree about.

[@delmattia96]

No. I will refrain from directly attacking you and putting words in your mouth, but... I will never be friend with someone that denies my lgbt+ friends' identity. I can't be close to someone that believes certain ethnic groups to be better or worse than other. I'd rather cut off contact with many others types of people, rather than find the middle ground for things that I believe to be the foundation of my moral ground.

[@jordansorenson698]

This is the definition of a radical.

[@Crown_Prince_Of_Ruin]

@@jordansorenson698 agreed

[@NotABot-px7ky]

yeah no. agreeing to disagree is for small things like pineapple on pizza or whats the best pie? or what is the IDEAL solution to this problem? politcs become very difficult to overlook past a certain point

[@sarahmatthews5878]

I recently found your channel, and now I am binge watching you like you're a new season of FRIENDS on Netflix.

[@amyshaw6825]

Reguarding the 'villified christianity' aspect - I think another reason why we see this a lot (well two reasons really) is that firstly - a lot of western fantasy writers are, or at least grew up in, a christian environment. As such it's likely a religion they feel relitivly knowledgable and comfortable with, when using to ape another, more fantastical religion. Want me to write 'almost-but-not-quite-Christianity?' Sure. I can do that. I feel comfortable doing that. Want me to write 'Almost-but-not-quite-Buddism?' Er... not so much. I'm simply not as familiar with it. The second point is that there's an amount of 'punch upwards' here. Christinaity - in pure power terms is one of the dominant religions on this planet (one could perhaps even argue the most dominant). So using Christianity as a base for your faux-religion just feels a lot safer in a veriety of ways.

[@thelemmiebee]

3 times. 3 times this video has auto played after watching other videos, making me jump unexpectedly at the Daniel-scare in the beginning. Each time I’ve watched the video all the way through. Good stuff Daniel, love hearing your opinions.

[@JCbeMe]

27:11 Bias is just showing undue favor for or against a specific thing. It's totally fair to say both Pullman and Lewis were bias against and for christianity respectively. They show and support their sides of the argument without giving the other side a fair exploration. Of course these writers will have narrative intent behind their in-book choices; the novels revolve around their personal biases towards christianity. It's fair to say you don't care about religious bias as long as the story is written well and takes real world history into consideration - but to say there is no bias feels a bit disingenuous.

[@pippaschroeder4388]

everyone has bias

[@eliseg1574]

21:49 On having religion in the books and making it unclear whether the gods exist and/or take action in the world - A Song of Ice and Fire dude! It goes so much into the ritual and history of the major religions and actually makes you believe for a while that the gods are up there, serving justice or answering prayers - Bronn wins a fight where he's fairly outgunned (if not outmatched), "proving" Tyrion's innocence in his trial by combat. Melisandre uses the blood of a king to pray for the deaths of the other kings, and they all die. It lulls us into such a nice secure place, assured that there is order and fairness in the world. Then Martin yanks the rug out from under us while we watch the Hound defeat Dondarrion ... a sacred trial by combat, letting "the gods decide", and we already KNOW that Clegane is guilty. Now the reader's faith is shaken (pun intended). It means that in the next trial by combat, between the double-combantants of Tyrion vs the crown, and the Viper vs the Mountain, the tension is through the roof. Tyrion and the Viper are surely in the right in both disputes, surely the gods will- Nope. *table flips* It's so expertly and crushingly done - this is how you weave the gods into fantasy IMO. There are fantasy elements that are worked into the religious lore, like the old gods/weirwoods and the red god, but they're still pretty ambiguous, and that uncertainty contributes to the reader's investment in the plot. It's just like our own confusing, unfair world. Sometimes prayers are answered. Sometimes there's justice and karma. Sometimes there's not.

[@fasdaVT]

I think you're wrong about people who agree and know about their beliefs not sitting around and talking about them. I mean that's litterally what churchs and bible studies are. I don't have first hand experience with other religions but I'm going to guess they're similar because it's a reinforcement of beliefs. Knowing things isn't enough people need to confirm that their beliefs are correct by hearing other people agree with them. Look at social media echo chambers, don't mean to be insulting but, those echo chambers are there to satisfy a similar niche as religion. They both make people feel that they belong and that in a chaotic world that they have the answers. Having the answers isn't enough without reinforcement because you will face new challenges that may undermine those answers.

[@char1211]

Exactly! And people also want to know if their interpretation is correct(maybe multiple interpretations are correct), if there are more lessons to be learned from a text or even if changes need to be made within the religion(way of worship/outdated dogmas/etc). There are still discussions about science and history even though we all know it to be true?!

[@Luke-nn4pm]

I believe Daniel was discussing a scenario where the truth of a religion was confirmed, which would cause different reactions than actual current day faith

[@Jstaman]

I really enjoyed listening to this and have to say that one near the end calling out the d&d religions as a business transaction is on to something. The lack of a spiritual component (them literally knowing what actual religions dont know) would greatly affect the entire concept of what a religion is. As a Christian i believe and have faith in a higher power. If it was indisputable then there is no need for faith. I really hope you come back and discuss this idea further after youve thought about it.

[@josieg.608]

Concerning religious pressure and Sanderson including elements of Mormonism, I don’t completely agree with what you said. For some context, I grew up Mormon. There is an insane amount of pressure to believe in the church, even for children. I’m not sure how much you know about Mormonism but there are a lot of teachings that put pressure on even questioning your beliefs. As for Sanderson, I’ve only read Warbreaker. There were a few elements that did remind me of Mormonism. It’s not a bad thing. But I see where people are coming from. Maybe in order to see it you would’ve had to grow up in the church?

[@adamahoonie]

Very interesting to hear your experience. I also grew up Mormon but was actually encouraged to ask questions and discover my own beliefs. It’s most likely just due to individual experience. I’ve read all of Sanderson’s books and haven’t really seen any beliefs preached in his stories, but others may have a different view.

[@g.davidturnblom5751]

Daniel, thank you for this well reasoned and thoughtful discussion on religion in fiction. It lays good ground for discussion without claiming certainty.

[@sam.s.g]

20:24 But magic or fantasy needn't necessarily come from a superor being/s. Morover, even if a divine figure exists, they don't have to manifest in the real world. For example, in the story I'm writing there's no way to demonstrate wether or not a god figure exists (like in the real world). This doesn't mean god does or doesn't exist but just that there's no real way to demonstrate. Finally, magic could be seen as a rule of the universe which doesn't necessarily have a known source (i.e. the four fundamental forces of the universe). 29:07 I agree, I think this aspect of fanatsy is unexplored.

[@fakjbf3129]

4:15 The Lorien Legacies novels (I Am Number Four) ends with *spoilers* magical powers being granted to various teenagers all over Earth. The sequel series Lorien Legacies Reborn then explores the impact of trying to organize these teens into something that can do good while various villains try to use these power for personal gain.

[@UdyKumra]

So on Greek/Egyptian/Ancient gods-the Roman Empire is actually infamous for incorporating gods from lots of different pantheons into their own religion. Basically, the way the Roman religion was organized, they generally believed that everyone worshipped the same gods with different ways (this is a bit of a simplification but it's fine), and so whenever they'd see gods elsewhere they'd be like "cool you're part of our religion now". This was great for people of MOST religions cause they were like "cool we can just keep worshipping our gods and they can keep thinking we've got the same gods". This didn't work so great Christianity arrived, because Christianity was like "NO WE ARE NOT THE SAME RELIGION". Some Romans considered the Christian God as part of their pantheon, but Christians outright rejected the Roman pantheon fervently, and this is why they were persecuted for so many years before Constantine decided he liked them.

[@NinjaxPrime]

I'd also like to note that this is also why the Romans had so many problems with the Jews. Like the Christians who came after them, the Jews were *not* having it with the "all-inclusive polytheism" shtick. And speaking of religous conflicts, IIRC there's even a story about the Romans entering the Jewish temple and being both confused and terrified because there was *nothing in it*. They left thinking that Yahweh was some kind of eldritch void-thing.

[@teehee-yn3jh]

Jews were oppressed by Rome, and they weren't fond of the Romans in general. Christians were persecuted a lot because they refused to worship roman state gods. Then there were in general a bunch of psychotic roman rulers like Nero

[@Ravi9A]

Indeed, The dawn of religious warfare came with the cultural idea of monotheism. Atenism provoked similar violent reactions in those otherwise syncretic.

[@SophisticatedBanjo]

So wild seeing ma boy Atun-Shei Films in the vid! Another awesome channel, but a crossover I never expected.

[@carmineknight9123]

Ok, here's my one bit. About atheists being portayed as the snobby asshole. The thing _I_ take issue with that is when it is the ONLY visible atheist in said piece of media. Which is the case in many older cases where it's just "assumed" people are religious until proven not. Whole lot of parallels with issues with stereotyping in general. It's not necessarily the worst thing for X kind of person to have Y attribute, but when that X kind of person is being forced to represent All Of X because everyone else is assumed to not be X.... Media doesn't exist in a perfect vacuum.

[@Thagomizer]

There are so many atheists IRL who are intentionally invoking this trope, but I don't think I could get away with writing one like this.

[@ayajade6683]

I can name less than 20 atheists who aren't the stereotype and tbh they're just as bad as those shoving religion down my throat. There's a reason most people go I'm agnostic

[@Thagomizer]

​@@evita.vYes, there are. Go read the comment section of any social media space where religion is discussed in any capacity. Go visit any forum or youtube channel centered around atheism. I am not an atheist, but if I were, I would find these people embarrassing. Of course, several of my closest friends are also atheists, but they are nothing at all like these idiots. That said, if I were to write an atheist in fiction, I would avoid the temptation to create a straw man, and try to make the strongest possible atheist I could. I believe atheism can be well justified, but I find that many atheists are completely blind to their own biases. They might often insist that atheism is not a belief unto itself, which is technically true, yet almost to a man, you can easily syphon that they have very specific beliefs about epistemology and science despite their pretenses of objectivity. But that's just one example. I'm not going to go any further with that here.

[@gandalfdumbledor3076]

that was one of the most interesting let's debate episodes, really interesting discussion imo

[@noraeld5020]

The specific format is great but it would be cool to see random other let's debates where it's more general like before. A mix would be cool cos they're both good in their own right

[@cbpd89]

A very specific thing from Name of the Wind that I really liked and thought was interesting: the religious holiday they celebrate is like a crazy week long revel that can actually be straight up dangerous. That is so much like early Christmas celebrations. They took pagan traditions, added Christian feast day (actually 12 days of we're being specific) and ton of alcohol. It was not the pious celebration many would imagine, it was quite rowdy. I don't know if Rothfuss pulled from this particular real world holiday's history, but that is how I read it. I just thought it was cool.

[@auntied4950]

Please read The Belgariad and The Malloreon by David & Leigh Eddings, I am yet to find a fantasy series that delve as deep into different religions and cultures.

[@petervilla5221]

I haven't seen this pointed out in the comments yet, so I'll go ahead and say it-- that little bit of editing where the back of the phone is an xray into the background comment is an awesome touch. I didn't notice it until I noticed it, and then I could not not notice it.

[@MeTaLISaWeSoMe95]

Earliest I've ever been to a video, cool. I think fantasy religions are far too often boiled down *solely* to a creation story and a very basic set of ideas. Religion doesn't work like that though. I want more fantasy series to introduce a history not only to their worlds, but to the agencies and organizations therein. As for active Gods, I enjoy them if done right. If you place gods into your world to the point where they interact *all* the time, then it's hard for me to think "why the hell don't they just fix this themselves then?". It hasn't happened often, but I've seen a couple stories where that was pretty much all I could think.

[@cyndijane]

The Percy Jackson series gets into the Greek/Roman/Egyptian gods and how they cross over if anyone wanted a rec on that every specific story pitch. There are like 25 interconnected books, so definitely a commitment, but it's really fun middle grade and most libraries have all the books I believe.

[@sadhbhauldwyn3798]

As a person who struggles with religious trauma, I would love love love LOVE to see the more harmful effects of organized religion on the general populace. Especially in Fantasy, ppl seem to always glide over the fact that some sects are incredibly harmful.

[@timswabb]

Try Steven Erikson’s ten-book series The Malazan Book of the Fallen.

[@sadhbhauldwyn3798]

@@timswabb I've been meaning to. I don't wanna start a new series till I'm caught up with Dresden, tho. I'll put it on my list

[@timswabb]

@Sadhbh Auldwyn It’s a big commitment but so worth it. My advice: read each of the ten books twice before moving to the next. You won’t regret it!

[@jordansorenson698]

If you are among the monotheistic crowd then then you have to remember that only one sect is correct. Everyone else is misguided.

[@Enigmaessence]

For the unconfirmed Mythos/Magic System point, I generally get that feeling from the Song of Ice and Fire books. With the exception of Thoros resurrecting people, there's kind of this plausible deniability to everything, are the miracles Melisadre provides because she's a priest of the Red Faith? Or is it because she's a Shadowbinder? Similarly oaths sworn to the Seven seem to bear cosmic weight. Tyrion's trial by combat ended as it should, his wife was responsible for supplying the poison to the feast if unknowingly, therefore he was guilty. But at the same time, Jeoffry was an illegitimate king so his champion also needed to die in the trial by combat. See also any time a follower of the Old Gods left the range of the Weirwoods bad things almost immediately started happening to them, but while they stayed in the north they were fine (relatively speaking).

[@StarlitSeafoam]

Yup, I agree wholeheartedly about more Ancient religious inspiration. I adore Ancient history, and there is not enough use of it in high fantasy.

[@henry3457]

Hot take: as a Christian, I consider it perfectly valid to pull from Christianity in order to critique some of the aspects of organized religion and historical Christianity. However, if an author were to do the same thing with another religion, they wouldn't get the same "fair critique" protection from the public, even though they should. For instance, if someone wrote a fantasy religion that pulls from Islam and has some zealots and many good people-- the same thing that many authors do with regard to Christianity-- he or she would be called an islamophobe. So here's the hot take, either you're okay with religious critique, or you're not; either all religions are fair game or none are.

[@timswabb]

You’ve pretty much described Frank Herbert’s Dune and it’s a popular classic.

[@eoincampbell1584]

I would think it depends on the author's background. Like the authors who write critiques of christianity grew up with christianity and know the good and the bad from experience. If an author like that critiqued Islam in their book I think it would be right to call them out maybe not necessarily as a straight up Islamaphobe but maybe stretching beyond the bounds of what they actually know about and can fairly critique (unless they've done extensive research on Islam and interviewed people who grew up with/practice it etc.) Meanwhile if someone grew up with Islam they could of course write critiques of it, and I'm sure there is plenty of work out there that does just that along with critiques of other non-christian religions by people who are actually familiar with them.

[@moonisusman4072]

I'm a Muslim and if Islam is criticized fairly then I'm fine with that. I agree with you that either all religions are fair game or none are. Personally, I'm open to religious critiques as long as the author has a good amount of knowledge about that particular religion in order to assess its pros and cons.

[@Alverant]

Get back to me when a probable US Supreme Justice says the Koran is above the Constitution.

[@saundramonette4137]

@@eoincampbell1584 As a Muslim, I think you hit the nail on the head. The problem with critiquing Islam in western media is that the people behind the works only base their works off of stereotypes that have been done to death. This is extremely problematic when you have hollywood especially showing that all Muslims are this way and establishing the concept of the "Other". So, I think that unless people can find a way to critique other religions after extensive research and consultation from people who've experienced that religion, it is better not to misrepresent.

[@Mario_Angel_Medina]

I think George R. R. Martin tackles well a lot of the things people say in the comments they don't see very often. Like that idea of a fantasy world with magic where you don't really know if the religion is true or not. He even said in an interview "The gods never showed up in A Song of Ice and Fire. Extraordinary things had happened and religious characters interpret those things as their gods intervining on the world, but is just that, their interpretation" (not an exact quote)

[@alexmag342]

@Mario Angel Medina But that is not what religion is. Religion is not a simple belief in a creator, that is very simplistic and ignorant take on religion, in truth its the manifestation of a people, their culture and their values and traditions, especially before when writing and books were rare, it was and always has been a away to pass on those same values, culture and tradition to future generations. Same reason religions can't coexist, for the same reason nations will always try to conquer others and only allow one culture, and "multi cultural" ones turn into cesspools and are doomed to fail always, the natural instinct of self preservation of your own, and its very good.

[@Mario_Angel_Medina]

@@alexmag342 The gods are only an example, muy point is that George R. R. Martin understands that, no matter if religions are "true" or not, they still have a social, cultural and psycological rol on society, and writes his book with that in mind, meanwhile most authors write their religions merely from a perspective of practicality (they use it only to justify how magic works on their novels, or as a backstory for the main antagonist, and things like that)

[@awsomeadam2]

@@alexmag342 "Same reason religions can't coexist" This is self-evidently nonsense. Of all the religions in the world, only the monotheistic Abrahamic faiths have trouble existing with others. Religious diversity is the norm in the vast majority of the world.

[@Laurelin70]

@@awsomeadam2 And not even all the Abrahamic religions, because the Hebrew and the Islamic are the only ones who really doesn't want to have anything to do with "the pagans", the Hebrew even making a point to differentiate its people from others by circumcision and not encouraging (at least in the beginning) any spread or "preaching" of the faith among the pagans. In fact, the Christianity, exactly because of its dismissal and refusal by the Hebrew faith and its spreading among the Greek-Roman world, took a LOT from the philosophies of its time and from the religious practices or cultural beliefs of the peoples it lived and flourished in. So much Platonism filtered in Christian dogmas, Christian festivities are almost always based on ancient pagan festivities (the only "timed" fact of this religion being the death of Christ, around the Pesach time of the year; still even that could correspond to Spring festivals and deities). Co-existence is not at the core of any "revealed" religion (or philosophy: think just about Buddhism), because when you believe that your god (or your worldview) is the "real stuff" and the others are just a delusion, if you let your neighbour abide in that delusion it means you're making a disservice to him/her. But this doesn't mean that ALL of that delusion is to be thrown away. For Christianity, Christ came to fulfill ALL the promises and the prophecies, so to give their true meaning even to pagan beliefs.

[@angiemitic4520]

@@Laurelin70 All Abrahamic religions. And if you really think Islamic wanted nothing to do with 'pagans' you must have really never heard of the Ottoman empire, it was kinda a big thing that caused some multi-generational trauma in some places. All religions have done their share of good and bad. All of them. Christianity is the one we hear about the most since western world and all that but let's not pretend it was the only destructive force to its non-believers.

[@alexdukec.7551]

At the end, when Daniel was talking about how he couldn’t remember an author who painted all religion as bad and everyone who liked it was bad for liking it has clearly not read enough terry goodkind

[@peteraitken3818]

I swear that thing with “it’s the same god but in different forms” is done in asoiaf with the many faced god in braavos

[@isabelamenezes5212]

i’ve been waiting for this one, thank you for making my day