Dark Clouds Over the Brompton Horizon (10.2023)

[@chagas99z]

I own a number of bromptons, ( and have had other folders) and have met both Will Butler Adams and Ben from kinetics. Some things this video doesn’t mention: Brompton is still manufactured in the UK. Will has consistently improved the quality of components, innovated in areas like the shifters, bars and of course the titanium options. Bag range is far better too. The company needs volume Of sales to survive and manufacture in the UK. So while Kinetics do make amazing mods, these are niche options. Ben is a fabricator not a CEO. Overall Brompton remains a hugh quality company making world class products for a well defined market. Like any company they have their flaws but these are chosen trade offs not blind spots.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

To my knowledge, they took away Kinetics' Brompton resale permit in addition to ignoring his ideas, along with the wishes of many fans and buyers.

[@idrissamorehouse322]

Appreciate the critique - I wondered about the carbon fiber seat post danger myself - a twenty pound bike is exciting BUT it's only for the rich - funny that someone would do well becoming a Brompton grey market clone dealer - not too disimilar to a smuggler who verifies the quality of the product and then handles distributing to the public -

[@lilliansullivan5867]

Bromptons' patent protection expired decades ago. A company started importing clones some 20 years ago but made little effort in distinguishing their bikes from Bromptons (their owner's manual was a photocopy of Brompton's!) The copyright/trademark law was properly applied by European courts to shut that import stream down. In 2017 Dahon showed the Curl trifold at Eurobike. Brompton sued Dahon for "copying our design". The EU court sided with Dahon and ordered Brompton to pay Dahon's legal fees (ouch!). In 2019 Brompton sued the maker of the Chedech trifold for 'trademark/copyright violation'. Because of COVID this case took a while, but in February of 2023 the EU court said "No, sorry Brompton, but copyrights are for literature and art. Your bike is a functional industrial design, covered by an expired patent. Lawsuit dismissed." So long as a company doesn't copy Brompton's name, font or graphics, the Andrew Ritchie-inspired trifold market is wide open.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

Wow! Excellent comment with much helpful information. Brompton is now vulnerable because a new brand with a solid trifold design could approach the private dealers they offended by abandoning them in favor of their Junction shops. I also agree about the copyright decision if no distinctive branding was applied.

[@cbpaton53]

... thanks for the video :) I have a basic Brompton 3 speed which I've used for many years and a 6 speed electric Brompton and am more than happy with both. IMO Will Butler Adams has been doing a great job in expanding the number of Bromptons around the world and promoting the cycling alternative in our cities. The comparison of Cambridge and Newcastle Universities was unnecessary, both are excellent places of learning.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

In the US, Lance Armstrong and the lockdown have done more for bike commuting than Brompton ever will. Europe may be a different story. I graduated from the IvyLeague but took classes at lesser colleges as well, and the difference was night and day.

[@cbpaton53]

@@SmallWheelWonder hmm, we have different perspectives on this. I can 't speak for Europe but I think that Lance Armstrong is a disgrace to cycling, he lied and cheated repeatedly over a number of years. Newcastle University is not considered a minor University in the UK, it has a strong engineering tradition tied with what was the major shipbuilding area in the UK. Commuting by bike hasn't been given the support needed in the UK, cf other Europen countries. I live in Stavanger, Norway where the cycle routes are pretty good and being massively improved at the cost of many millions of dollars to the tax payer. This, plus companies encouraging their emloyees to cycle commute by providing changing room faclites and other incentives, encourages commuting by bike. Will Butler Adams is clear on Brompton's rôle in increasing bike commuting, its by providing a simple, well designed folding bike which just does the job and lasts.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

I agree about Armstrong's character, but this doesn't change the fact that he popularized cycling in the US like no one else. Cambridge has given us the Moulton and the Brompton... towering achievements. 👏

[@cbpaton53]

@@SmallWheelWonder Starley and Dunlop contributed more and I dont think either of them attended a university :)

[@SmallWheelWonder]

Agreed. Most of our best innovators have been dropouts or graduates of top universities, but seldom with advanced degrees.

[@SimonBrowneNZ]

Another company worth mentioning re Brompton Electrification is ARCC - who do a very well regarded “kit” that needs to be fitted by them because it includes a torque sensor in the bottom bracket, and Grin Technologies in Vancouver, Canada who also do a Brompton kit that you can customise to include a torque sensor - or not - in the bottom bracket. I have installed a kit from Grin - not on my Brompton - that included a torque sensor and has regen braking. The combination of torque sensor and regen braking makes the system extremely efficient - I have had 25% power recovery - that gives very good range on a small battery. As icing on the cake, I installed the Grin All Axle front wheel kit on a bike with a belt drive and 8 speed Alfine hub. I’d be happy to share my experiences from this installation. I have no exp;erience with ARCC - yet. They are on my short list of possible candidates if I proceed with electrification.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

I also have a Grin kit overclocked to 700 Watts ;-)

[@NoZenith]

I'd love an ARCC but it's almost impossible to get one and if I could figure out to get one here in the states, it would cost a fortune... with no support 😢 I saw Grin while I was shopping a couple years ago, some like they keep innovating. Thanks for reminding me of them.

[@finncarlbomholtsrensen1188]

As a Dane I bought my, Hyper Expensive, 2019 Top, "SuperlightM6LXBrompton" in a combined Bike Store in Cph. But searching for a bike, a Danish Dealer claimed that Brompton hardly cared to answer asking about items and bikes, so your claim may be right? As a now former Craftsman (75) I have also built bikes and wheels from scratch, so it isn't a problem to make repairs and additions to my bike (Presently weighing well below my last weighed 9 kilo, and still with mudguards, as a "Rainy Dane"). It seems that Brompton uses what spares they have got, and if the next delivery is different, they use those (Beware if changing the Crank to Titanium, with ceramic balls, as I, as also the Brompton Brakes seems to change bolts and parts at intervals?). Also the right size "Chain-tensioner" may be difficult to find (spares from China have many sizes, I think based on the present years bikes?), as an extra upgrade part, to fit the bike. A Brompton is a horrible, hard rolling bike on the small wheels, but for its purpose, transport as ultra folded, it is "second to none"! But paying the price of a minor "used car" for full 4 gear "T-Line" bike, is still absurd, as I have managed to come very close to its weight, of course a version with mudguards, by adding titanium and carbon parts from China, Taiwan and Korea, for a price which is much less, and I still have my 2019, SA 6 gears! And a black titanium seat post. I expect to reach at least 8,5 kilo, and still with my mudguards! Finn. Denmark

[@SmallWheelWonder]

Good story. We would love to see your ride. Feel free to email me or post pictures on our facebook page.

[@finncarlbomholtsrensen1188]

@@SmallWheelWonder Now I'm not a Fan of the Ultra Spy Site, Facebook, and for now I haven't even got a Phone or Camera (My wife has one, which is very worn!). I am on LinkedIn though! But to a very, very high degree it looks - just like my original, 2019 flame painted, black version bike, but I suppose now weighing around: 8,75 (?) kilo bike, from many changed parts and still falling, from extra changes of parts (Secured in both ends, Leather grips with a printed Brompton on them! It is a classic "Brompton", and still with mudguards, after all. The holders and metal brackets on those I intend to change to carbon and alu-, from the very "Heavy Metal" brackets - originally used on those from the Factory, even on a "Superlight"! The stays are from Titanium, from the Factory)! I am asking around for a similar painted, titanium Stem Post, though! Finn. Denmark 😆

[@finncarlbomholtsrensen1188]

I haven't weighed my bike with a luggage weight, since the 9 kilo, but I have made several changes since then (new printed saddle), and still have my Alu handlebar and the clamps om my mudguards - unchanged to - Carbon and Alu (Also some left over and still not changed brake parts to titanium). I expect to reach at least 8,5 kilo and still with my mudguards and my bike - mostly looking fully Original! Finn. Denmark

[@finncarlbomholtsrensen1188]

I have Ceramic Balls in my head set and a titanium axle in front + all bolts, nuts and discs possible, changed to titanium! Also a JK head set to be changed, just for bragging. Finn 😁

[@SmallWheelWonder]

I welcome any pics you can send.

[@rdx913]

IMO, the three best folding bikes in the world right now are the Caracle-S, one of the Vello bike models and the Helix superlight. None of them use the same tri-fold fold as the Brompton and all have larger wheels (though they fold up only a fraction larger).

[@SmallWheelWonder]

With the advent of tiny electric scooters, the super compact folding bike is no longer relevant.

[@NoZenith]

I'm going to have to check into these :-) thanks

[@gdwlaw5549]

@@SmallWheelWonder what nonesense! it's called excercise! using your legs and breathing more....

[@PRH123]

The SAVA Z2 16" is very interesting, doesn't fold as small or as nice as a Brompton, but it's all carbon, 9 kg, disc brakes, and has a standard 9 speed Shimano drivetrain... And its 1300 USD, about the same as a Brompton if im not mistaken....

[@DanielAttila]

@@PRH123 Wow!

[@bmwofboganville456]

The carbon fork on the titanium Brompton is crazy, for a machine which is intended for mixed travel (train/air/car) where the bike will inevitably be knocked & shaken about while in transit. Agree that the new guy is a marketing man, vs Ritchie who was a British eccentric.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

Vostok makes the coolest forks, but they don't come cheap 😞

[@fastbike9845]

My wife has a Brompton from 1993. I have a bitser which in theory is the same age, but the only original parts are the left pedal, rack and stem - all other parts including main frame having been replaced. The rear triangle has been respaced to fit a 5sp SA hub with 70mm drum brake to give better braking on some hilly rides. I agree that the pace of innovation is slow and seems to be marketing driven. Another unfortunate development is the banning of export sales of spare parts from online shops like SJS Cycles - the local dealer is useless and expensive but has been given a regional monopoly by Brompton.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

Once you replace any of the extremities or any part of the frame, it's no longer a Brompton, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.

[@fastbike9845]

@@SmallWheelWonder The main frame cracked after an accident so I replaced it with a genuine part. Rear triangle cracked near a weld (heat stress) so I replaced it and spread it to accept the 126mm OLN hub. It's still a Brommie :)

[@tabletop2go651]

I actually own one of those Brompton clones you mentioned. According to the dealer, it can use "99% of Brompton accessories", and so far this number has rung true. It came with the square block, so it takes any luggage that uses that portion. It also has space in the top tube for the hidden toolkit. The only issue I've come across is that the suspension "cone" at the base of the seat tube sometimes doesn't lock when the bike is lifted. (But then I learned that Bromptons before a certain year behaved this way, so it's a wash.) Excellent video!

[@SmallWheelWonder]

The stock suspension should be upgraded on all models, even on the Birdy.

[@LLF1234]

Which clone company/model do you have? About the suspension block, in a real Brompton, if you rotate it, the rear triangle will not lock and will be always loose. If you rotate back, it will lock again. So that might be the issue why some times it locks and sometimes doesn't

[@tabletop2go651]

@@LLF1234 The brand is Banian, and the model is Eco Trifold. (You can check Google for what it looks like.) The suspension block is identical to a real B, but for some reason the hook that latches onto the block does not align consistently to the notch in the block. I'm stumped. Haven't replaced it still.

[@davidhunternyc1]

Brilliant video. I learned so much from your candid and critical review of Brompton. Thank you. I live in NYC and was interested in the Brompton T-Line but wondered how I could repair and service it. Then I wanted to find its flaws. Very few channels take a hard look at products and naysayers call critiques "trolling." Hogwash. You're awesome. I also discovered the Leggero T7C from the JackbikeSG KZbin channel. Is the Leggero T7C better than the Brompton T-Line? I don't know. I just subscribed!

[@SmallWheelWonder]

Keep following. I have not been paid off by anybody, so I'm sincere.

[@davidhunternyc1]

@@SmallWheelWonder I will keep watching. I live near the GW Bridge so if you're ever in the neighborhood, I'd love to make lunch for you and pick your brain about bikes.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

Join the next ride: www.meetup.com/small-wheel-rides-new-york/events/297972495/

[@davidhunternyc1]

@@SmallWheelWonder I would love to get your opinion on the Leggero T7C from the JackbikeSG KZbin channel. I don't have a bike. I use a kick scooter. I'm looking to upgrade to a bike but I don't know which one yet. The Moulton Double Pylon is insane but maybe an Brompton Clone, like the Leggero T7C, would be a better pick. I don't know.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

Why upgrade? Budget?

[@moniqueviau2702]

I am a Brompton’s lover. These folding bike are so wonderful for so many reasons ❤ But you are right on the fact the company (UK) don’t serve the market equally (Jonction have more market) and it is unfair for clients who loves the B. In Canada, we are waiting long time to receive the new bikes 😢.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

There is solid competition at this point. I have a number of videos on it.

[@KavanOBrien]

I agree with everything you said , to embrace people like those in that small shop in Scotland would open a whole new market especially the belt drive version with bigger wheels, one would then have a road, gravel, mountain bike all in one and fold ability as well , to have all those attributes in one foldable bike it really would open up several market places, on a side note you mentioned about your electric version on your Brompton did you do a video on that ? Great video by the way I think many have the same thoughts as yourself in the Brompton community, take care and thank you.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

I have some details of my Brompton Interceptor electric bike in other videos. I am about to write a book and possibly produce an in-depth video course as well on how it was built.

[@KavanOBrien]

@@SmallWheelWonder wow that would be great and you would give details of where one could purchase these items needed to copy your example, hope you haven’t put a patent on it ha ha , I do very much like the way you go into details with your videos have watched a few now, many Brompton videos tend to have very few details and skip to the next thing on their agenda. Thank you for being you.take care.

[@ForkNLeans]

Seems like a lot of people are taking the fun out if biking and just analyzing everything smh

[@NoZenith]

I don't know if anybody else is commented this yet but have you done any research on the new t-line? I don't want one and I do feel that they're overpriced but at the same time you don't seem to have your facts straight. First off do a little research on the new seatpost, it's not just carbon fiber

[@SmallWheelWonder]

The video contains a detailed segment on the titanium models.

[@NoZenith]

@@SmallWheelWonder but your details at some points are factually inaccurate. There are plenty of failings at Brompton corporate without just making stuff up. Did you even watch a single video here on KZbin on the Brompton t-line? You come across rambling and disingenuous at some points aided by a disregard for accuracy.

[@EmersonRoberts]

​@@NoZenith Indeed; literally every single assertion is wrong. It's quite impressive.

[@Muddy283]

@@EmersonRoberts Hey Emerson, long time no see!! For those who don't know, Emerson was literally one of the key figures at the Brompton company in the noughties and, if I remember correctly, early teens as well (in case some are not aware, that was when Andrew Ritchie, the inventor of the Brompton, was still VERY much around and active). Btw to help you remember me, Emerson, I was the Englishman from Belgium who brought a small group of Bromptonites over each year from Belgium to Blighty for the annual Brompton World Championship, and also was present at several Open Day visits to the factory. Anyway, thanks for letting us know that apparently _everything_ this chap is asserting is factually wrong!!! I already was dubious about some of the things he was saying, given my scant knowledge of the ins and outs of the Brompton, but coming from someone authoritative in all things Brompton like yourself, while it is shocking that a guy could publish a video with (apparently) so many factual inaccuracies, your post is also reassuring. Thanks! I should add that, personally having known Will Butler-Adams, I frankly do not - in several respects - recognise the characterisation of him in this video. This is evidently a portrait painted by someone who has met him in the press rather than meeting and dealing with him in person.

[@SimonBrowneNZ]

Sir you are absolutely correct. Thank you for compiling a succinct summary of the very sad current situation with Brompton the company. And also for highlighting the wonderful work being done by Kinetics who are the true Brompton innovators. Eerder Metaal is another Brompton innovator.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

Great comment about Eerder Metaal. Thanks!

[@NoZenith]

My favorite Bromptons come out of those two as well! I bought my Brompton back in 2021 and I'm quite fond of it. I got mine a few months late so I didn't get it until winter time (with no bike infrastructure in my city) but I really enjoyed it in 2022. I do feel like I would really love one with 20-in wheels.... and something a little softer, maybe like 50psi in them would be pretty awesome! I'm just budgeting needs atm and biding my time. The original H6R was a massive Indulgence for me already... but If I could afford to order an Eerder 😍👻

[@mikstratok]

I actually like the aesthetic of the T line much more than the original, as for the gearing, I agree, they should offer the bigger chainrings directly, albeit, the default gearing is fine for commuting, even with some mild hills. I would love it if I could get a rohloff hub on it, or even better, a smaller, lighter 'mini' rohloff hub designed to take less torque but be more efficient at higher speeds (since the smaller wheels mean exactly that, more speed, less torque)

[@SmallWheelWonder]

Standard width triangles and forks have been requested for years, but Brompton couldn't care less. Kinetics and other aftermarket upgrades are your only options 😢.

[@mikstratok]

@@SmallWheelWonder tbh I don't think the 135mm triangle would be better, 112mm is objectively better for the 16 inch wheels, It'd be enough if brompton did a collab with rohloff to make one designed for 16 inch wheels.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

Unfortunately, that sort of collaboration is even less likely than a new triangle ;-)

[@finncarlbomholtsrensen1188]

Sorry but the small wheels, and their much higher "Rolling Resistance" are mostly the single reason why a Brompton is a "Horrible Bike". That said from an owner of a, hopefully soon to come down to 8,5 kilo, 2019 now much more/less than SuperlightM6LXBrompton (With mudguards, of course! I'm a Rainy Dane!!!). Finn. Denmark

[@mikstratok]

@@finncarlbomholtsrensen1188 The rolling resistance depends much more on the tire width, pattern and pressure than the diameter, on the downhill, my T line rolls down significantly faster than my gravel bike. In praxis, I think I'd trade some additional punture resistance for more rolling resistance, the puncture resistance of the schwalbe one's included with the T line is pathethic.

[@sghound]

spot on. another storied brand sleeping on its laurels. zero innovation or improvements.

[@ed0078]

I disagree. I own several Brompton’s, all is well.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

I also own a Brompton, the fastest of them all, but that doesn't mean that I am willing to overlook the flaws of the company's new management. I am impartial and won't defend a product just because I own it or because somebody is paying for me to promote something.

[@tdgdbs1]

I own two Bromptons and several clones from Singapore; I like the clones better.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

I'm not surprised. I have seen and handled an amazing titanium clone myself.

[@LLF1234]

Wow mind sharing why? I'm looking to buy a Brompton or a clone and was thinking on getting a clone first to see if I like it or not. But now reading your comment I'm puzzled why a clone would be better than the real thing?

[@reglard]

They are going the same way as the British car industry, start with an innovative World changing design and manufacture it for 40 years making slight changes and marketing the crap out of it by changing the colour and special editions we practice accountant led innovation in this country and listening to the customer is an afterthought. I would like to see a wider hub spacing so the Alfine Hub could fit and perhaps a touring model that could use 20 inch wheels. The most compact fold in the World is not of much importance to me and many others.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

Exactly!

[@brentbutikofer9055]

Should be able to drive at 30 mph????? Brompton's are not designed for this speed. I love my Brompton and plan to upgrade to the T line. You seem to be unhappy with them. I find my Brompton one of the most unique and impressive bikes I've ever owned.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

My Brompton Interceptor does 30 MPH any day.

[@john3892]

Some insights here are basically correct but to avoid the appearance of being an ill-informed bigot, I suggest you start by familiarising yourself with respected long-established UK universities like Newcastle, with its strong background in engineering. Oxbridge perfect if you want to study Classics, Law, English but for Engineering I’d go with Newcastle. Snarky, ill-informed, personal comments don’t help your argument. I’ve had about two dozen Bromptons of every type since 1996. I still have five, including electric and titanium models. Obviously I’m a fan, but I bemoan the fact that in getting to 60,000 sales per annum Butler-Adams has turned the Brompton into a fashion item solely aimed at city use. That has been at the expense of keeping faith with the dealer network and developing the bike further for touring and utility use. But no doubt his shareholders are happy.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

As already stated, this is not a Brompton fan channel. Calling me an ill-informed bigot without knowing anything about me or my content does not establish you as much of a contributor. Yes, the new management has the right to drive ahead full steam to convert a once treasured niche brand into the next Dahon and make a ton of money in the process. Fans, dealers and associates also have the right to criticize or condemn this move -- as has Andrew Richie, the founder of the company.

[@muratmustafa4532]

Your judgement is pretty clouded by the dislike you have for the guy

[@SmallWheelWonder]

Or my knowledge of him and the truth of what he is doing.

[@fender1000100]

Bromptons have been overrated and overpriced for years. And Tern bikes especially the Verges first gen. Left them behind long ago. The problem is people are slaves to what appears to be what everyone else is using. The so-called Sheep mentality. So they will dismiss a fantastic brand like Tern. In favour of Brompton just to go with the flow. When in actual reality Brompton is no longer the best folding bike. And is now living off its name. A bit like Rolex for watches and other brands.

[@SmallWheelWonder]

Great comment. There is also a weird cult system in New York. You have to love what the management is doing or else....

[@fender1000100]

Right...

[@rogersaunders1770]

What a boring commentary! Need to get a better and more accurate script for starters!

[@SmallWheelWonder]

You're right. I should have been a lot harsher... but this is KZbin.

[@dicksonm1254]

There’re cases where Chinese titanium main frame clones broke in half or bend

[@SmallWheelWonder]

This is a very real fear. Chinese products are always suspicious... except for a few known brands. This is one big plus for Brompton.