Dark Souls - Seath is Gwyn's DAD!? (Not Clickbait)

In this episode of Fear the Old Lore, we examine the one of the strangest differences in the Japanese text and what impacts it has on understanding the lore of the royal family.
While this is a somewhat explosive claim, I'd like to be clear this isn't meant to be definitive. It's more following a potential train of thought to the fullest extent possible.
I don't fully believe in this theory either, but there's something to it which makes me hard to let it go, so I'm more or less on the fence about it, maybe 55-45 in favor of it. Anyway, I hope you guys enjoy it and take it for what it is.
Link to Channel Yoshimitsu, who first brought this to my attention:
/ @channelyoshimitsu
Link to a site which goes into detail explaining the term in question:
www.japanese-wiki-corpus.org/...
---
Link to my Japanese to English Retranslations of Bloodborne and assorted Dark Souls text:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Join the Discord!
/ discord
---
Do you like the content and want to help support the channel more?
Patreon profile:
/ lastprotagonist
Buy a drink or coffee with ko-fi:
ko-fi.com/lastprotagonist
Donate via Paypal:
www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_...

[@Taktwo2]

Last Protagonist *DESTROYS* accepted theory with *TRANSLATIONS* and *SPECULATION*

[@victoriousf.i.g.3311]

Dark Souls: *Sees "accepted theory", laughs ominously*

[@edwardhubbs9049]

There is no Dark Souls rabbit hole I will not venture down.

[@meaningfulmindfulness15]

Praise the comment! ☀

[@X-Vidar]

Other things to consider about the Gwyndolin-Seath connection are: -Gwyndolin was born with moon powers, and Seath is the only other character with a strong association woth the moon. -Gwyndolin has snake-like legs, and aren't snakes imperfect dragons?

[@vallgron]

Shiiiitttttt

[@giacomorinaldi8803]

I was just going to comment that. Great find!

[@X-Vidar]

@@fantasticmrmonk the moonlight greatsword in his tail, and he also made the moonlight butterfly.

[@Sercroc]

@@fantasticmrmonk let's see... how do we get the moonlight greatsword?

[@JohnDoe-oi7lv]

Oh boy. That nugget of knowledge, Seath being a relative of Gwyn's wife, breathes new life into a theory I've seen around. I'm going to present some seemingly disconnected data and thread it all together at the end. Down the rabbit hole we go. Dark Souls takes inspiration from a lot of things, one of those being real life mythology. One could take a look at Gwyn and say that he is based on Zeus, and it may be true, but he is also based, among other things, on the slavic god Perun, who is the highest god of the slavic pantheon, and is associated with lightning and the sky. The opponent of Perun was Veles, a god of the underworld who was often represented as a shape-shifting dragon. Depending on the version of the myth, Perun and Veles were at conflict because either Veles stole Perun's pregnant wife and ran off with one of the children, or Veles WAS Perun's wife the whole time while shape-shifting, and ran off with one of their children (Incidentally, the child's name was Jarilo, so some speculation could be made about the cut content undead king Jar Eel, but that is a different topic). Veles was also said to have the power to cast away his old form and be reborn in a new body. In the lore of King's Field (a fantasy game franchise by FROMSOFTWARE, older than Demon's Souls, and kind of its precursor), the Big God of the world is Sylval, who is the father of three other gods. Sylval leaves the three gods to take care of the world and goes to sleep. Of the three, the elder and middle gods ditch the job and leave to wait for Sylval to awaken, so the younger god is left to deal with the whole thing. The younger god divides its power in two and creates two dragons to serve as guides to the people of the world. The dragons are the white dragon Seath, and the black dragon Guyra (who Kalameet is heavily based on). Now, in Dark Souls, we don't know what the world was like before the Age of Ancients, but if there is any sort of continuity between franchises, then it is possible that Seath and Kalameet can be considered siblings. It has been often said that the "Berenike" in the Knights of Berenike refers to a kingdom or a certain knight, but the thing is, Berenike is a Greek name, and its Latin form is Veronica. In the Czech language (remember, slavic mythology), the diminutive form of Veronika is Verca, which, transliterated to Japanese (be-ru-ka), is pronounced the same as Velka. Also, the tower shield of the Berenike Knights has a symbol of four wings and an egg shape similar to the ring of sacrifice. The Corvians of Dark Souls 3 also happen to have four wings, as does the Nameless King's Stormdrake, which resembles a crow. Also, it is kind of weird that Oswald, a Pardoner of Velka, decides to set shop in a church dedicated to the mother of the Firstborn. Together, these relations could lead to the conclusion that Berenike is Velka, and Gwyn's wife (rather, Velka is a pseudonym used by Berenike to hide her identity). And now we put everything together. Seath is the brother of Kalameet, and is related to Gwyn's wife, who, if the mythological counterparts are any indication, could be a shape-shifting dragon that can cast away its old form and be reborn in a new body. Conclusion: Gwyn's wife is Velka AND Kalameet. A plausible theory that, without context, sounds like a total shitpost. So, about Gwyndolin, I guess that rather than his mother, Priscilla is his cousin?

[@frolicsomgaiety]

All of the language stuff was really really interesting. Perhaps Berenike worshiped an aspect of Velka as so many did. Maybe she was wife to Gwyn, that wouldn’t be out of place. But narratively or thematically what does Velka being Kalameet do? Doesn’t mean you aren’t into other things, like the 4 wing links. But (other than localization) language and mythological analog are very much tertiary tools for lore decoding- the series is mostly self contained and that’s a great thing about it. Kalameet was just a dragon that mutated during the age of fire like Seath. Velka rebrands as Caitha.

[@JMoore-vo7ii]

This definitely raised some questions for me regarding 1.) The lone berenike knight just before Priscilla in the painted world (and to some extent, Tarkus' armor location just beside the painting) and 2.) The implication of Velka being a shape-shifter as it relates to her relationship with characters not directly seen in Dark Souls 1 (Nameless King, Filianore, The Ringed City/early humans). On first thought, it makes me wonder about Velka, the character herself or our idea of the character's history, and her alignment with the dark; painted worlds, corvians, hexes -> Caitha's chime. My understanding of connections between Dark Souls 1 and 3 is rough at best, so maybe you or someone else could help illuminate about Velka's identity as it pertains to outside of Dark Souls 1 Again, as you said, without context much of what is said on this topic sounds like a total shitpost lol

[@JohnDoe-oi7lv]

@@frolicsomgaiety Tertiary tools they may be, but they shouldn't be discarded easily. When taking the inspirations into account, there are things that make a lot more sense. Take for example: Why does the Way of White in Carim denounce Allfather Lloyd as a fraud in DS3, and why it appears to be based in Carim instead of Thorolund? Well, it is a different Way of White than the one in DS1. Most kingdoms in Dark Souls are somewhat based on real life nations. Usually you can identify them by looking at the names of the characters, save for some mistranslations. In this case, Carim is based on England, and Thorolund is based on a mix of Italy and the Roman Empire. In DS2, we meet Pardoner Cromwell. In real life, Thomas Cromwell was the one that made the legal framework for the creation of the Anglican Church. So the change in the Way of White from DS1 to DS3 mimics the split of the Anglican Church from the Roman Catholic Church, breaking away from the authority of the Pope, in this case, Allfather Lloyd. There are times when the lore of the game is shaped by the things that were used as inspirations.

[@geekparkingonly2802]

Isn’t Velka the goddess of sin and forgiveness?? Maybe she was given that title/domain after she stole Gwyn’s child/had an affair/whatever she ended up doing. Maybe she became known as the goddess of sin only afterwords. It’d be interesting to learn whether Gwyn forgave her or not.

[@redeyescarp]

Nice! Vallad probably being the greater will gave birth to the two dragons and the lesser seed of evil. Consequently needing to use its last bit of power to guide a bloodline together that would result in someone that could challenge the new gods. Long live Queen Velka (Marika) the Eternal! Seriously, the long walk of peace is exactly what she implies in the frenzy ending :3

[@lhomepereta6425]

Now that you mention it, it make sense the Seath and Gwyn being of the same family cause Dukedoms are usually bestow to members of the royal family. Still I think priscilla is the reason why the Nameless king left. An also... what about the little painter from the painted world, she look like she is related to all this people.

[@Sargeroth]

I am pretty sure we encounter Priscilla's consort in the form of a Pyromancer Black Phantom in the Painted World of Ariandel, don't we? It makes sense to me that the Painter would be their daughter.

[@TheInfiniteAmo]

The real mindblow in this video is the fact that you can use the columns in Aldritch's boss room to block the arrow storms.

[@maykstuff]

I'd always taken it that after Gwyns first consort departed for distant lands, Seath began to experiment with his part of the Lord Soul (either with or without Gwyns permission). Part of this was an attempt to fuse the 3 different great powers of Gods, Dragons and Humanity. This is why he was capturing fire keepers as they are a draw for humanity. I think that Gwyndolin and Priscilla are more akin to siblings, but this would explain why Gwyndolin was able to use Sorceries, Illusions and such. Gwyndolin and Pricilla were both presented to Gwyn. Gwyn rejected Priscilla, as she was too close to his former enemies and considered an abomination, whereas Gwyndolin (with enough lies and propaganda) could be seen as one of the Gods, though had to be hidden away to preserve the "truth". Just my 2 cents!

[@HumdrumMadman]

I enjoy a mix of polished and unpolished videos. Like you said, not every theory or idea is deserving of or requires a highly polished video.

[@piercenewby2406]

filianore was supposed to be the mother but they changed her background last minute. makes sense to me gwyn has gwynevere and the nameless king with filianore, and yorshka and gwyndolin with priscilla. Priscilla being a genetic creation by seath or his daughter, makes wayyyy more sense why gwyn would appoint seath his dukedom. Also makes sense how gwyndolin could be hidden considering he'd have been born in the painting. Also makes sense why pricilla is hidden in anor londo and protected by guards. Seem likes Gwyn and Seath are actually partners in crime, gywn being the arm and seath being the brain. Edit: i've also seen theory's about filianore being priscillas mother, and the crystal dragon egg in her lap is symbolic of that.

[@frolicsomgaiety]

Crystal dragon egg?

[@piercenewby2406]

@@frolicsomgaiety yes, the egg in filianores arms, right before she wakes, whats the question exactly?

[@frolicsomgaiety]

@@piercenewby2406 I’d just never heard it called a crystal egg. I’m not saying I know exactly what it is, the interior looks to be that of a transposition kiln within a crumbling petrified egg. Crystal egg simply has implications for how it works and its origin. I have ideas on how it works, though little is certain. What do you think about the egg

[@piercenewby2406]

@@frolicsomgaiety it looks like it has a crystal lizard in it. The ones you seen at the very start of the game that's my assumption.

[@frolicsomgaiety]

@@piercenewby2406 ooh I see. Well remember how the transposing kiln is said to be made the skin of crystal lizards, so neither of us are wrong ;)

[@Xgenstudioz777]

As far as I understand, Yorshka is not Gwyn's real daughter and Gwynevere's sister. Such an appeal to them comes from the oath of the blades of the dark moon. After the player joins the covenant, she will begin to call Gwyn "our father".

[@chaospyromancy1719]

you know, it may be possible for the popular "gwynevere + seath = priscilla" theory to be true AND have gwyndolin be gwyn and priscilla's offspring. although grim, it would partially explain why gwyndolin was so sickly, and also hidden away. super interesting video, thank you for sharing!

[@Battleguild]

Should Shira be taken into consideration of this? She says she is the daughter of the "Duke". Outside of Tseldora, Seath is the only known Duke that could have a connection.

[@LastProtagonist]

Sure, Shira's role can be called into question as well. Unfortunately, we have arguably even less information about her than Priscilla, so it's difficult making do with what we have. While I personally don't like that she calls herself the daughter of the Duke, there isn't anything to disprove it, and she could even have a different mother than Priscilla (if Priscilla even has a true mother.) Either way, they could be related somehow, and it could still make her part of the distant royal family.

[@Sercroc]

maybe she is the daughter of seath but with a human, since she is undead

[@ObiJuanKenob]

Bruh you kinda willing out. Love it, just keep presenting evidence and train of thought. Now I'm unable to unsee GwynD using magic.

[@wabbit2099]

I enjoyed the stream of consciousness approach of this video. Of course, your polished and scripted videos are best but they also take time and slow down your upload schedule. I think a mixture of polished and less polished uploads can definitely work. You know the lore very well and so you make the video interesting no matter what.

[@vote3rdparty-695]

haha, "not clickbait" - nice touch

[@LastProtagonist]

If only I had the Photoshop skills to give Gwyn a "Call of Gruty" face in the thumbnail...

[@skrotosd]

@@LastProtagonist the Ios photoshop app is free and extremely easy, you can make a thumbnail in minutes and no one will notice il made on a phone.

[@LaMi_fa_cose]

Hi! I'm a member of the Dark Souls Italian Community who also translates the original Japanese text and tries to piece together the lore of these games. I must admit I'm pretty surprised to find your video, because I can't find anyone who knows the Japanese text like me and analyze it. I know Lokey just by name, and I know you wrote a list of translated descriptions/dialogues of Bloodborne. I'm glad to see you're focusing on Dark Souls too! I partially agree with your statements, especially the one about Priscilla being Gwyndolin and Yorshka's mother: the evidences are pretty clear. I would like to add, though, a little detail that maybe you didn't notice while reading Priscilla's soul description: the fact that she's not only a "half pure-white dragon", but even a 不義の子, an illegitimate child or a child born out of wedlock. I think that this isn't just a proof for the natural way Priscilla is born (I don't think she's the result of an experiment), but even of the fact that she's not the reason for why Seath became a 外戚. If Seath is BECOME a relative from the side of Gwyn's wife, this means he could have been included into the queen's clan, maybe by just becoming the husband of one of the queen's sisters or nieces. Also, the original descriptions states that he received the shard of Lord Soul when he became Duke and 外戚, therefore the born of Priscilla must be happened after (especially if she's an "illegitimate child", that would be fitting if Seath was initially married with another member of the royal family). These were just my 2 cents. Aside this, you made a good job! Me and another Italian KZbinr, Sabaku No Maiku, are trying to spread these translations through all the international community and it's very nice to see we aren't the only ones in the net doing this! ^w^ Keep up with this wonderful work! 🔥

[@LastProtagonist]

Oh thanks for bringing that up. I just didn't think about it when I was making the video. Yes, the fact that she's called a 不義の子 is a bit troubling, and part of that is because it's difficult to say whether or not it's meant to be understood literally or figuratively. I don't think this means Priscilla would've had to have been created/born after Gwyn was married though. Thanks for your comment. If you want to talk more translation stuff, feel free to join the Discord. It's easier to have a dialogue there.

[@LaMi_fa_cose]

@@LastProtagonist I think it could be meant as literal, because if Miyazaki wanted to just remark her being a mix between species, he would have probably used terms like 合の子 or 混血児. Instead, he specifically uses 不義の子, soooo I suppose it has a more strict interpretation...? I suppose so XD I always assumed Priscilla born after Gwyn's empire was already been established, even because we find her doll in the Undead Asylum. This means she's possible been held there, before she got secluded in the painting, and that toy was hers. Sure, I would like to participate! It's always nice to speak with people that knows the Japanese text, for me!

[@jamelelaraj9901]

Italian community represent! Grande lavoro Mirko!

[@LastProtagonist]

@@LaMi_fa_cose The Discord invite link is in the video description

[@meaningfulmindfulness15]

It's this kind of unity all of us need for Dark Souls in the wake of Elden Ring. Praise the Sun! ☀

[@SinisterStromboli]

Loved the video! There are some really cool concepts at play here.

[@JJShurte]

It would mesh well with Dark Souls 3, where Oceiros was trying to merge the divine blood line with the dragons to create a more powerful being in Ocelotte. Kings keep trying to tap into the power of dragons to prolong their rule.

[@coltonhusher3876]

This is wild mate, I love your videos

[@Coast2CoastFlyin]

Fillianore has to be Gwyn's daughter, she is explicitly stated as such. She may be older than Gwyndolin, or perhaps an illegitimate or otherwise secret child not known of in Lordran. I like the ideas here though, definitely gives me a new perspective to think about. I love dark souls lore dives and interesting speculation backed up with some evidence, there's just so many layers to this series, it's incredible

[@vallgron]

Great video I think as a community we've gotten a bit attached to some theories always nice to see a spanner thrown in the works

[@Anon-me6gf]

The thing I dont get right : why don't japanese knowledgeable people of the English Souls community like yourself (I know also of Chann. Yoshi,Lokey and Bob the Hollow) compile the most popular Japanese Soul community theories, do a side by side comparison with whats widely accepted in english, and see what sticks and what doesn't ? It could also be quite pedagogic. Theorizing on another langage on your own is cool and all, and I get the more autonomous spirit in the search, but seems aimlessly confusing and obtus where readily synthetic data is abailable (i suppose), data which could serve as a baseline to the "ok this is how the japanese is understood" problem, directly from native speakers. The english vs japanese debate in Souls always ends up being someone trying to build a castle from scratch, instead of reviewing available blueprints in my mind. I do enjoy the view ! But thats my overall impression.

[@LastProtagonist]

Because like in the English community, there's a decent amount of Japanese folk who don't understand the lore super well either. I've seen fan theories that don't have evidence to support them in both Japanese and English, and as a result, I tend to prefer staying as close to the games as I can. It's easier to come into things with a fresh slate than it is to unlearn things that are wrong, so I still haven't seen quite a lot of things the community has produced since I didn't want to come into the fold with other peoples' ideas in my head.

[@johanretard3615]

I think to some extent Gwyn and/or whatever wife/wives he had must've been related to Seathe or the dragons in some way, just because it lines up with occurring mythic idea that the gods have overthrown their fathers (the giants, the titans, etc.) This just makes me wonder though.... who or what is allfather lloyd? Also I think on the specificity of character relations... I think you can also point to the general mythic world where there is a looseness to the relations of the gods because their families aren't viewed through a scientific/genetic frame like actual human families. So in my opinion, Yorshka and Fillianore have to essentially be related to gwyn because how could they not be? At the least they are cousins by whatever short lineage the race of gods comes from, which only has like 3 or 4 generations at the most.

[@johnsandfort8908]

Great video! I have to say I prefer the more polished videos to the stream-of-consciousness, but I'll keep watching either way.

[@jadephoenix4297]

I would actually posit that Seatth's child who entered the royal family could have been Shira, she's elected as the matriarch of the church, and the right hand lady of Filianore, as well as "the Duke"'s daughter. Seath is the only non-spider-enthusiast duke in the game, and I think Shira's age would make more sense to place her there than Priscila.

[@professor7269]

Excellent video. One can learn things about language by just watching your videos. Keep up the quality.👌

[@user-zp8kj2cl9g]

Can't wait for your painted world theories.

[@SirVyre]

Stream of consciousness works fine for me. It made you sound more sincere. >_> Priscilla possibly being Gwyn's wife is kinda crazy. It'd mean that uhm... he exerted some sort of will on the Painted World too.

[@martinmortyry7444]

Babe, the new Dark Souls Lore Theory has dropped

[@Hawlk12]

Seeth is Gwendolyn twink ancient dragon son

[@partofthetribe3277]

She might just v call then father and Ava sister because she was accepted as a true sister despite being only related through Priscilla

[@sunderark]

Gwyn's children are part snake/dragons. Gah!

[@motazfawzi2504]

[Not Clickbait] : Seath is Gwyn's Dad -in law-

[@LavosYT]

Aldrich also wields Nito's Gravelord sword as his weapon for what it's worth

[@FriendlyDarkwraith]

It always struck me as odd how Gwyndolin was supposedly "born under the moon" which resulted in Gwyn raising him as a daughter because of its apparently feminine nature, but Gwynevere is the Princess of Sunlight and the goddess of fertility. It's possible that Gwyn might not even be his biological father, which would help explain why he was raised as a girl. But at the end of the day, there's definitely some kind of relation between Seath, Priscilla and Gwyndolin.

[@LastProtagonist]

You know, I never questioned Gwynevere's role as a daughter of "sunlight" when the moon is considered the feminine role, lmao. Thanks for the comment.

[@Kuranzyan]

Not in Shinto mythology, though. Tsukuyomi, the moon, is largely depicted as male (if variably effeminate), Amaterasu the sun is straight up female, no ifs or buts. Also Nameless King is totally a Susano'o expy.

[@Sercroc]

knowing now this from the japanese, the fact that he is raised as a daughter and hidden, could very well be a way to negate his claim to the throne, nameless king is still a king, it's possible he succeded gwyn for some time, since he left after gwyn went to the kiln

[@Yo-rm8mx]

Could Pontiff Sullyvahn maybe be a bridge between Priscilla and Aldrich? His Soul reads: Pontiff Sulyvahn of Irithyll imprisoned a god of the old royalty in the abandoned cathedral, to be fed to the devourer. - Maybe the japanese differs slightly and gives more/a different inside to this? Though it may just be hinting towards Gwyndolin Also he was born in the painted world of ariandel.

[@knightrandal]

I am a fan of this theory

[@dynamicflashy]

I always thought Gwyndolin had some dragon in him as he has those snakes growing out of him. As we know, snakes are imperfect dragons. So, I agree that Priscilla is Gwyndolin's mother, and Gwyn is his father. However, I think Yorshka is an illusion created by Gwyndolin, in the image of his mother, to manipulate people into continuing the duties of the Blade of the Darkmoon even after his demise. Not unlike how he used an exaggerated illusion of Gwynevere to manipulate players into linking the flame.

[@jobdylan5782]

wow this actually makes a lot of sense, think it might be true.

[@core-nix1885]

2:00 I always thought the Archives were originally shared with Velka, looking at the statues on the way in. "Eve was the 1st scientist" - Nietzsche

[@420PraiseIt]

Gwyndolin is half snake = half imperfect dragon Priscila is half dragon and probably his mother Also 07:19 he is not described as lastborn CHILD, just lastborn referring to SON. Royals dont care about daughters so even in annals dating back as well as modern ones referring to royal family history a lastborn without something next to it refers to lastborn SON, aka the only gender that can be a heir, making yorshka a possible gwyn's offspring

[@user-zp8kj2cl9g]

Just missing the emoji in the thumbnail lmao

[@ericbright5129]

Are you trying to tell me that, like Jefferson Twilight in The Venture Bros., Seath is the bridge between worlds?

[@kazikek2674]

I do think Gwyndolin and Priscilla are related by blood, but I had a somewhat different take on it originally since I wasn't exactly translating from Japanese. If this was true, honestly, it may also explain the acts of Gwyn's firstborn (allying with the dragons against his father when all he truly seems to value is strength at arms and caramaderie). I also think you are correct that Yorshka is related to Gwyndolin through the mother, but not neccessarily the father, and I think it is telling that Gwyn's wives or concubines are never truly mentioned - we don't know the mother or mothers of ANY of his children. I think this may mean at least one of them is a not dissimilar state. If Priscilla is related to, or otherwise precious to, at least Gwyndolin and the Firstborn, whether as a mother, sister, or whatever else, her banishment and Firstborn allying with the dragons (who may accept her 'ability' more easily than deities did) but never moving against Gwyndolin after Gwyn's death would make significant sense.

[@LexIconLS]

It's been a while since I heard it so I may be getting the people involved incorrect, but if Priscilla was Gwyn's consort, it could also explain why he wanted to keep Gwyndolin a secret from his actual wife, who I think I heard is Velka? Again, I could be remembering that incorrectly. I think I picked it up from Vaati. Speaking of, if you and Vaati ever did a collaboration, it would be the greatest soulsborne lore project to-date, imo.

[@drunken-master7904]

So Precilla left for the Painting because there was no place for her kind anymore after Gwyns Genocide and not because of lifehunt? I can imaging rising anger and hatred from Gwyn for the mother and children who resemble his archenemys. So just hide them away. Well just my hadcanon talking

[@TheCompleteMental]

Doesnt Yhorshka call Gwyndolin her older brother? And she's his youngest sister? Iirc, it was pretty deliberately clearing the air on the deific family's relations.

[@freshboy3968]

But what about Allfather Floyd? And why would Gwyn give part of his soul to his dad?

[@Sercroc]

lloyd is refferred as gwyn's uncle i think

[@tarvoc746]

So I have a few questions. (1) Not a Japanese expert, but doesn't the term _musume_ carry at least connotations of virginity? That would mean Priscilla can't be the mother of anyone, no? Again, I might be completely off-base with this. All I know about Japanese comes from subbed anime, lol. (2) If Gwyneviere is Priscilla's daughter, who exactly is Priscilla's mother? Velka? Do we have anything about Velka being related to Gwyn? (In fact, how does Priscilla's Velka connection fit into any of this?) (3) If Priscilla is Gwyn's consort and they even had children together, when and why was she locked away? It was my impression that she was put into that painting out of fear that she would give birth to dragon offspring. Kind of risky to sire children with a woman who could bring back your old enemies simply via childbirth, no?

[@LastProtagonist]

1. It does carry those connotations, but it isn't strictly implied. 2. Idk if Gwynevere would be Priscilla's daughter; Gwyn could have had multiple partners, including Velka. Velka's connection is whatever you make of it, just ask the fanbase for their Velka theories. 3. It's all speculation. I think Gwyn may have been originally trying to find a suitable, eternal vessel for the First Flame, but it ended in failure (kinda like the Shanalotte deal in DS2.) People think she was complicit or could have been a tool in the "plot against the gods," but there's no confirmation either way.

[@core-nix1885]

3:15 The term Crossbreed is still important - Gwyndolin T-poses like a crucifix when he dies; there are lots of references to the 'batsu' cross in the Painted World (X shaped seal, anneX, phalanX, Xanthous king, bonewheels [St Catherine's Cross, X: Wheel of Fortune].

[@Bumpitybumpbump]

The family tree seems much neater to me if Gwyn and Seath are the two “parents” of the rest of the characters you mentioned. Does the translation support this type of relationship?

[@LastProtagonist]

Not that I've seen

[@TrumpCardMAGA]

Just because I dont agree with all of the lore ideas mentioned doesnt mean I dont like hearing some fresh takes and interesting thoughts. Especially when content is shown with the differences between the English and Japanese localization. Many times when there was confusion with the English dialog or item descriptions with the lore implications being able to see what's being discussed directly translated without any westernization of the pronouns or whatever else can really clear things up, basically trimming the fat.

[@Kucoz]

Far be it from me to question your wisdom. it kinda sounds like seath married in to Gwyn family

[@LastProtagonist]

Yeah, making Seath Gwyn's (step)Dad, lol

[@HenryGreenEngine3]

Fillianore is 1/8 dragon?

[@futurewarriorhero123]

but if the translations say that the girl aldrich dreamed of was a maiden, then she was a virgin right? so it couldn't be Priscilla, or am i missing something? i just find it kinda gross gywn would do it with what would be essentially a young girl, with him being as old as he is presumably.

[@birddale5523]

You fucking lied to me!

[@patrickn.4113]

So Gwyn bangt fluffy dragon waifu?😤

[@kivsto8130]

Pricilla is the queen bc she has scythe and nashandra has a scythe. Also i think yorshka is gwyndolin in disguise and pricilla dressed as gwyndolin and was eaten by aldritch

[@piercenewby2406]

holy crap... i think your right

[@gestaltengine6369]

But you forget... Dark souls 2 is not canon

[@WarMonger_the-One-and-Only]

@@gestaltengine6369 Except it is. The painting of Nashandra in the Irithyll Manor, the presence of Alva and Zullie in Irithyll and the Ringed City, and the Shield of Want in Smoldering Lake all prove Dark Souls 2 *is* canon. Edit: Further proof is found in the Drakeblood Knights in Archdragon Peak and various pyromancies.

[@gestaltengine6369]

@@WarMonger_the-One-and-Only but! Miyazaki famously said and I quote: "Fuck Dark Souls 2 and fuck b-team". So it's very likely ds2 isn't canon.

[@piercenewby2406]

@@gestaltengine6369 yes but both of those characters are clearly a reflection of Gwen and Priscilla

[@jakobwagner8032]

I think what you have raised is interesting and really good. My theory is that Gwyndolin is an analogue to Seath. Gwyndolin is one of the new gods who may have been raised by all father Lloyd. Gods are supposed to be immortal perfect beings that do not change shape, with the world in a constant transition to dark this may symbolize the gods being mutated by the dark and becoming more human like.

[@ibn_ismail]

If Priscilla was a maiden, then that means she was a virgin, and could not have given birth.

[@rainbowkrampus]

I think you're reading the whole being adopted into the royal family thing a bit wonky. Seath obviously did become a member of the royal family. I don't think he did it through offering his daughter in betrothal. I think he was getting it on with Gwyn's wife (almost certainly Velka) and she sponsored his adoption into the family. I think this is what is meant by Seath entering along matrilineal lines. The whole thing is very Arthurian. Gwyndolin is almost unquestionably the child of Gwyn and Priscilla. I think Priscilla is the child of Seath and Velka. Appearances and magical affinity are pretty much dead giveaways in terms of parentage here. Gwyn and Velka had two children, Nameless King and Filianore. Nameless gained dad's lightning. Filianore gained mom's affinity for dark. Velka and Seath had Priscilla. She has mom's dark affinity and dad's dashing good looks. They hid her away in the northern asylum in secret. At some point it is discovered that the age of fire is coming to an end. Many things are tried to stop it. The painted world is likely made around this time with Velka's help but it winds up being a failed method of escaping (in its current form, this is ameliorated by DS3 through Gael noshing on everybody). Linking the fire is eventually hit upon as an idea. But there needs to be a sacrifice of sorts in order to perpetuate the world in the form of a dream. The dream needs a dreamer and Gwyn chooses Filianore for this role, condemning her to sleep for eternity in order to perpetuate his power. Here things really fall apart. I suspect that Gwyn hit upon the idea of linking the fire and all it entailed in secret. He hid Filianore away in the Ringed City. What Gwyn is doing is eventually found out but for some reason no one can stop him. Nameless leaves in disgust. Velka leaves to cement power to try and get her daughter back by starting the Sable Church, Londor, the Lord of Hollows plot, etc. But the fire hasn't been linked quite yet and Gwyn needs to keep up appearances as well as create a new heir. At some point he learns of Priscilla, either through Seath who is starting to go mad by now or via some unknown means, then retrieves her from the asylum. Priscilla may be a half breed but she has royal blood. This is when Gwyndolin is born. But Gwyndolin is a snake legged freak. This is unacceptable to Gwyn and at first he tries to pass Gwyndolin off as his daughter (thus, not his heir) but as Gwyndolin gets older this becomes more difficult. Thus, the idea of a fake daughter is born. A bountiful goddess of sunlight is envisioned through spells and illusion and loosely controlled or maintained by Gwyndolin. This is Gwynevere. Gwynevere was never real. She's a cover story. That's why she seemingly vanishes after going off with this "Flame Godd Flann" who is only ever mentioned once and has no iconography or anything whatsoever to prove his existence. This is also why there are so many oddities when it comes to the illusions in Anor Londo. Why is Gwynevere's illusion massive when no other god is? Why are the giants tiny in comparison to the one real giant we see in DS1 and the later ones we see in DS3? Gwyndolin only vaguely remembers certain things from childhood before Gwyn hid Gwyndolin away in the basement and put Gwyndolin in charge of Velka's old job of being chief of the Darkmoon Blades to keep busy. A lot of this is highly speculative, especially in the ordering of events. It's just not clear when certain events happen in relation to others. But I think the broad character relations and motivations are supported by the games as well as the mythologies From are borrowing from. Although I have another version of this in which Filianore is not Gwyn and Velka's daughter but Velka and some unknown person's daughter, wherein this unknown person is a pygmy lord or possibly Manus. This is largely dependent on Filianore originally going by the name Caitha and being known as the goddess of tears. In this version, Gwyn kidnaps Caitha and convinces the pygmies to guard her comatose body under the ruse that she is Gwyn's daughter called Filianore. The rest is fairly similar though. This one is more in line with why Velka is seemingly taboo and why every place that Filianore has been or could have been is sinking into the abyss.

[@haputhegnome3891]

I think seath is the mother of Pricilla 🤔

[@L00ww]

i dont know what to believe anymore. next you tell me gwyndolin is a trans or whatever haha