Darkest Dungeon: A Design Postmortem

[@eywhatswrong]

I can forgive a lot, you guys hired THE best voice actor for this game. Ever.

[@Suedocode]

The narration voice is up there with Morgan Freeman for me. Absolutely great call on their part.

[@nerag7459]

"Monstrous size has no intrinsic merit - unless inordinate exsanguination be considered a virtue."

[@deschain1910]

"Curious is the trap-maker's art. His efficacy unwitnessed by his own eyes."

[@andrewculross9421]

eywhatswrong BACK TO THE PIT

[@ahungarianbutler6344]

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer

[@PokeBattlerJaze]

"I don't play this game, it's too stressful." And with that one line alone, I like this guy.

[@Leondragon06]

lol that was funny to hear him admit to not playing his own game.

[@DrDefibrillators]

“We needed community management” So like... Brigand 16 Pounder?

[@jonasdrejerjensen]

Am i on the only one who finds a post mortem for Darkest Dungeon very fitting?

[@John190assman]

Sound like a name for a DLC.

[@salvagebar]

Darkest Dungeon: The Postmortem DLC! With a new area: The Physician's Den With two new bosses: The Coroner and The Examiner

[@necrotik9376]

@@salvagebarNew hero DLC The Mortician. Upon first hero's deathblow The Mortician trades his life for theirs, yet causes all be afflicted.

[@ratheruncreativename3252]

Audio is definitely a major factor in reinforcing the pain (or relief) of an enemy's attack. Nothing is more satisfying than hearing the slight whoosh of a missed Treebranch Smackdown, and on the other side of the coin, nothing is worse than the added grunt and crit sound effects when he crits someone from full health to Death's Door. The sounds of impact (or lack thereof) are a small but vital part of making every attack feel real, like when the Highwayman misses a pistol shot, you can hear it clunk into a wall somewhere behind the enemy.

[@lazbones5176]

So I decided to listen to this WHILE playing Darkest Dungeons... I chose the "Kill the Sunken Crew" mission, the mid crew boss... I went in with Hellion, Abomination, Jester and Plague Doctor. Started the video. Reached the boss in about 5-8 minutes, got lucky and didn't get ambushed or anything terrible. I just finished at the 32:33 mark. I fought that boss for OVER 20 MINUTES. My Jester and plague Doctor both at death's door, Hellion and Abomination not far, out of bandages... and I yelled. I didn't yell a phrase or anything, just a primal "YAAARRRGH!" of aggression. And swung with my Hellion. Critted, for 27 damage and finished off the boss. I LOVE THIS GAME

[@ninehills42]

Sunken Crew is the easiest boss in the game lol...

[@jidk6565]

@@ninehills42 elitest borshka You can get bad rolls and status effects that can fuckihg wreck you, it's about how prepared you are

[@ninehills42]

@@jidk6565 every boss can have bad RNG. But its still the easiest boss in the game if you know what you are doing. If you want to go for a sure kill just bring lvl 2 heroes with lvl 3armor/skills.

[@jidk6565]

@@ninehills42 IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING There is such a thing as an inexperienced player, bad RNG, and poor resource management (I've been guilty of all these at one time or another) And the biggest thing that could make that boss fight really difficult Overconfidence.

[@germiyanbey1]

​@@ninehills42 Did you feel accomplished after you say "that was one of the easiest boss" as you tried to belittle a fellow gamer? How did that feel, was it enjoyable? Did your ego feel skyrocketed after that? Instead, feeding ego at the expense of hurting others is primitive and shows you like a shit-person. Nevertheless, things can be easy for you, or hard for somebody (due to wrong team combination, RNG factor, etc.), or you could be simply lying here while you even didn't beat that boss and came here to brag about... Whatever that was, you won't lose anything by offering respect, but you will lose your respect when you do disrespect.

[@Bauhauskiddo]

He's right about the moments of despair leading to moments of triumph. Yesterday I finished a mission (which I'd had to abandon twice earlier because it was too hard) with every party member having 5HP or less, two party members having been at Death's Door twice, one three times, and two characters having only one HP left. It was winning by a hair's breadth, but it was winning, and it felt so good.

[@Botar48]

Bauhauskiddo Over confidence is a slow but insidious killer.

[@lustykong7591]

Were you under leveled?

[@andrewbrown1675]

Bauhauskiddo congrats!

[@Bauhauskiddo]

Pseudo Potato I guess I got screwed by RNGesus pretty hard. Lots of enemy crits, traps doing loads of damage, etc. But the third time it worked. It was so intense during the final fight, I could either lose it all or win it all, and I felt so great when I won. An easier game wouldn't have given me that feeling.

[@andrewbrown1675]

Blahblah I literally never even said the game is good, all I said is don't be an asshole

[@Felsmukk]

DD is 80 hours of sacrificing a small goat to RNGesus.

[@joelruvalcaba6282]

my favorite thing to do

[@crocketlawnchair259]

Eeeeeeyup

[@quintoncraig9299]

1: Child* 2: RNGebus* 3: \(-_-)/

[@Changetheling]

60 hours tops*

[@Justanotherconsumer]

As a longtime player of roguelikes, being ready for things to go badly is half the game.

[@darianwright9488]

Imagine being the person who doesn't like the highway man.

[@bobroberts6821]

I assume the main reason this game became so popular is because the battles are so meaningful, in stark contrast to so many RPGs where you mostly just wipe out enemies by the dozens with little or no impact on your character(s). Wolcen, for example, has so many cannon-fodder enemies that the battles just become tedious, whereas in Darkest Dungeon any battle could be your last with a few bad rolls of the dice.

[@AnonyMous-og3ct]

I think it has to do more with the thematic elements of design -- stress and affliction, the misery of exploring a cave. The idea of a game that constantly gives you tough battle choices spans lots of titles (not so many JRPGs where they might have units with 99999 HP, but at least lots of Western CRPGs and strategy games and roguelikes, including the original Rogue), but the thematic elements of this game are really unique.

[@KennyRonkainen]

You need Wayne to narrate: "Kick them in the nuts with specific and carefully crafted purpose."

[@Oddigan]

Yes please

[@danielbrooks1473]

The most epic moments in this game is when you have your whole team on "Death's Door" with stress maxed out, and you randomly stack a bunch of virtues. It's like a crowning moment of awesome. It's the whole reason to play.

[@bartholen]

Key word: *randomly*. Meaning the player has no input or influence on whether or not it happens. I get that any RPGs are going be based in some form or another on chance, but DD has way too many mechanics that rely on it.

[@TechPriestFred]

I feel like virtues should be given when the party has been doing GREAT for most of the run- I mean, it is logical, they killed other enemies with ease, so I guess that they could scream that this fight is no harder and become courageus. Also there should be 100% affliction chance for getting stressed out early in the dungeon. That is logical and at least values skill a little (still, RNG crits and such can destroy it, but it is a part of the game, I guess). I feel like it would have been a nice change.

[@hb-robo]

the whole reason to play is to just wait until you get super lucky and something good happens? why not just hit the slots every night and call it a life?

[@TheSpiritedFendron]

@@bartholen the player has control over if you get to that situation or not tho so if you suck and feel like ranting about that on KZbin, that's none of our business, he just gave a rare example for when that happends

[@ronhavhcm3318]

Hah, the Stage Coach is actually amazing. I never thought of it, but the catharsis of opening the stage coach early on is about the same as opening a pack in a card game or a lootbox in Overwatch.

[@TacetTheTerror]

I just started playing Darkest Dungeon last week. I absolutely love it! I've actually found the corpse system to be quite useful for ranged teams.

[@lanceclemings4510]

Fun fact, it was originally invented to counter an old beta strategy involving just a bunch of spam of front row damage. before that, you could just chew though the front line and into the back line.

[@monolithaxdxo1665]

H

[@bigejay100able]

I can’t even begin to count the number of times I spent like an hour in town min-maxing my squad walking into the first room of a dungeon and just dipping or getting whipped

[@xdevantx5870]

After one kleptomaniac stole some stuff, I considered just numbering all the heroes.

[@butterwantschoclate9364]

XDevantX just name him something embarrassing

[@misomiso8228]

Also, I HATED corpses when they were first introduced, I mean really loather them and thought they destroyed the game. But now I couldn't imagine the game with out it.

[@gyllgaming]

IIRC the corpses had a ton of health when they first came out, eventually they reduced their health and made crits/dots obliterate them which really balanced it out

[@Alkoluegenial]

I think the devs just really failed at communicating the corpse change in a good way. Making it optional from the start and talking / creating news about it beforehand would've helped a lot.

[@Abedeuss]

Corpses had like twice or thrice as much health and I think there were less abilities that cleared them.

[@doibantikov2486]

misomiso Agreed. I cannot play without them. It literally is too easy. That's not bragging, I'm awful at this game, but its a whole other layer of gameplay that you just strip away if you turn it off. The game is naked without it.

[@qwormuli77]

Am i the only one who was relieved to see the corpse update? No longer was the front row meat grinder the absolutely infallible(and cheesy) method to absolutely everything and now again it was required to think about your party composition. At first there was not enough mechanics tied to it(corpse clears etc.), but even then it made the game a lot more interesting.

[@Goombalove3000]

So I came to DD after the proper release and was wondering, what's the big deal with corpses? they seemed fine to me...

[@FayteLeone]

People didn't want to adapt to using corpse clearing skills and having their front line (looking at you leper/crusader) not being able to reach the back line by deleting the front. Was especially bad when it came to stress enemies who notoriously lurk in the back and need to die quick.

[@Goombalove3000]

Huh, fair enough. I always used one of the front line guys as a general buff tank, whilst filling the other slots with ranged or aoe guys (highwayman, abomination) who could hit the back guys or clear corpses whilst dealing damage. I guess people just don't like change

[@Lalle524]

Goombalove3000 There was also the fact that corpses had much, MUCH more health than they have now, and there weren't many hero classes built to deal with them; so you'd have entire party wipes from heart attacks because stress enemies hid in the back because you couldn't get through the corpses fast enough.

[@ToozdaysChild]

Corpses as they were first introduced were broken. Enemies would ALWAyS drop corpses, as opposed to the 50 or 60-odd percent chance they have now; they took more hits to destroy, there were no dedicated corpse-clearing skills, and on top of all that, destroying a corpse would lower the amount of loot you got from the fight.

[@FayteLeone]

Corpse drop chance has always been 100% with the exception of crits, DoT kills, and small enemies such as spiders. Having a hard time remember when corpses effected loot. As far as i remember, corpses never effected loot.

[@gassnake2004]

Pros of being an indie game developer: fashionable artistic career, job of my dreams Cons: Actually dealing with gamers

[@politicallycorrectredskin796]

They're a resource if you just learn how to use them. Just expect unhinged responses, since people generally don't tab out to write something at you if they aren't either very happy or very pissed. And let's face it: it's mostly the latter. RH did a great job of that, and Klei are great at it too. I yelled at them once during the EA tuning. There was period of a few months there where the game was just savage way beyond anything you find in it now, and I had some bad rage quits and breakdowns that I decided to yell at RH about. But after that I started waiting until I had calmed down before writing feedback threads to them, and it helped a lot with the tone. And then they started responding, explaining why it wasn't possible for example to have visual representations of gear upgrades and so on. They could have said "fuck off, you smelly hippie!" but they didn't. There was always granular communication about the game both ways. I really enjoyed that. For favorite EAs it is definitely between DD and Oxygen Not Included for me, and all of that was because of the approach the two studios took to the process. If you're not going to listen to the feedback, why have EA at all?

[@Vailhound]

I love how in depth he explains their narrative process, instead of just saying "Dark souls-like story"

[@Changetheling]

...as if Dark Souls had invented a particular way of telling a story. Many games before that one already used this narrative process.

[@red_cosplay]

2:23 Ezekiel's resolve is tested... FRUSTRATION, AND FURY, MORE DESTRUCTIVE THAN A HUNDRED CANNONS!

[@gilmoreja]

This guy keeps saying that the affliction system is the hook of the game. Is that true for most people? Because I don't feel that way. Any time my dudes hit 100% stress I feel like it's been a failure on my part. So basically while playing the game I'm actively avoiding the whole affliction system entirely. For me the hook of the game is the atmosphere, the narrative, and the humanity of your dudes.

[@luketfer]

Personally what annoyed me was that the afflictions and virtues were a random chance and when they happened, it was random what you got. I would loved for when someone gets afflicted (say Masochistic) whenever they get stressed again, it's always that affliction. It's the same if they get a virtue, from then on it always kicks in at 100 stress. Instead it's always random and thus doesn't make them more of a 'character'. Yes you could make a party with entirely virtuous people and ignore the stress mechanics but the chances of getting an entire party is kind of low and if people grind their assess off to get it, then fair play to them.

[@Obzerver]

When he says "affliction system" I think he was referring to everything about the stress mechanic: afflictions, the brothel/abbey, stress damage, heart attacks, light levels, etc, etc. If you consider all that part of the "affliction system" then I'd say it really is the hook as it's tied into virtually all other aspects of the game. Also, whenever I heard someone talk about this game when it first came out they'd always mention the stress mechanic as it's unique feature, e.g. it's hook.

[@filipstysiak]

Affliction system in DD is stupid, especially the chance for virtue. I'd like very much to feel the awesomeness of my characters getting a virtue, but why is virtue tied to you basically failing to get rid of the stress? Aside from really stupid tactics like equiping +virtue chance trinkets and then praying to RNGesus to give you one off +100 stress curios (those are stupid because you need to take a huge gamble and possibly just shoot yourself in the foot) you can't just plan for virtues to appear and use them as a part of your team build/strategy. POSITIVE THINGS SHOULD BE REWARDS FOR DOING GOOD. Not a chance for a reward when you actually play badly. I'd like to see virtues get awarded to the player for doing specific things, like killing certain number of certain enemies, like 2 swinetaurs in one run for a certain virtue (with a guaranteed way to achieve those virtues). This way the player would have more control over how he is doing; making both victories and failures truly his/hers. As for bad afflictions - I have no issue with those. If you mess up it's natural you'd get a random kind of debuff.

[@Qlicky]

Yeah, people dont seem to grasp this game. Im on week 92 on my current playthrough, I had my heroes afflicted 5 times max. Point of this game is to kill enemies while keeping your guys at 1+ health and at -100 stress. Sure, you get fucked sometimes with 3-4 crits in a row, but the way people are bitching I can only assume most of the times its their fault. I get pissed off too, so much that my wife has to tell me to calm down. Just today I was playing the sunken crew (veteran level) with a composition that was far from ideal, because all my other heroes were over leveled. I had 10+ battles and a collector on top of that before boss fight, with no dedicated healer. I finished the mission with no losses. It was tough, but doable, and thats a good game design in my book. 90% of the bosses can be beaten with a random hero composition with right skills and trinkets. 50% of them are easier than a tough random encounter with right composition.

[@CidGuerreiro1234]

IMO the Virtue mechanic adds more realism and diversity to the game. Different people react differently to pressure and stress, hence the possibility of a positive outcome for being stressed. "Injury and despondence set the stage for heroism... or cowardice".

[@skyguy713]

Darkest Dungeon is the love/hate relationship of games. And I love it! Challenge that pushes you to the edge but never throwing you off suddenly, a cast of intresting and unique characters, and enemies that are just stressful enough that you are more than eager to finish a fight quickly.

[@superluigiac]

I remember when my whole team went valiant, powerful, etc and survived the fanatic...just to be killed by some skelletons...

[@aristoxenedagonie9316]

The reference to roguelikes games at 9:00 are very relevant. The story are not incredible, but the variety of situations and this feeling of accomplishment caused by the inherent difficulty, and the randomization of the situations, are truly memorable.

[@misomiso8228]

Really interesting talk. What's cool is that how you turned weakness into strength, so for example with worrying about character balance, rather than spend resources trying to balance everything perfectly you guys just said 'you know what some heroes are better than others, just live with it,' and it worked. Also, i think the reason why DD is popular is the same reason MtG, Hearthstone, poker and other similar games are so popular in that it is a 'High Skill, High Varience' game. This seems to be a holy combination for intense game design.

[@NotSoMelancholy]

Honestly, the fact that the game didn’t have a focus on dialogue trees is one of the thing that made me love it. the fact I could just pop through the shop menus get my heroes upgraded/healing and jump right back into the dungeons made it felt like I was never more than a step a away from the actual meat of the game.

[@SpaceElvisInc]

just want to say rest in peace to DMX the best hound master I ever had

[@blackace8717]

Wow RIP to DMX, a really good rapper.

[@Simon-ow6td]

I remmember hating corpses so bad when they came out. I dropped the game for almost a year. But yeah, it was 100% the right choice in hindsight. This is a brilliant game, if slightly rough around the edges. I'm looking forward to what they will create in the future.

[@noxigniter]

I'm still wondering, why simple corpse system. It's an ok solution, but makes zero sense. Like, slowly bleeding to death corpses? What? Damaging corpses to take them from the battle WHAT? It still feels like a temporary design plug that goes too far unaffected. I got an idea, and if there is already critique of that one, I will be really glad to know of one. Imagine heroes and monsters can have different effectiveness if there is less than four members remaining. Problem was that people were shifting party of enemies, and enemies were loosing effectiveness rapidly - range person not on 4/4, but 3/4 without possibility to take a step back and that's the end of dps. So, what if monsters and heroes adjust to shift and start doing great not only on 4/4 position, but on 3/3, or 2/2 after shift? Like, start to have adjusted (different?) skills depending on party embers amount? Isn't it makes more sense that there is more room to someone for dodge, when there is less people or something? It can be excruciatingly hard to develop for Red Hook, but, well, why it's always players who must suffer in Darkest Dungeon? :3

[@tomasxfranco]

I don't agree with it being the best choice. The implementation could have been done much better. Basically being able to remove them in 1 action would make more sense, and better represent your party moving past the corpse than them having health points.

[@lustykong7591]

Because the strategy was always the same, nuke the monster in the front and everyone else keeps moving forward and they could be nuked as well. The game was getting too easy for anyone who had a brain, that's why corpses were added.

[@jahrazkal]

Пётр Романов I do not like your proposal for 2 main reasons: 1. How to explain this mechanic to players. For heroes this doesn't make sense, because losing a member shouldn't power up your team. Also, why not go into the dungeon with less heroes, when they are stronger that way. The same goes for enemies, archers for example should be worse at meele combat than at range. One nice thing about this game is, that the same rule apply to enemies as well. If you are out of position your effectiveness suffers. No need to explain, you know after a few fights. 2. Shifting enemies reduces the tactical options. Some skills only hit the back row, so they are worthless halfway into every fight. Keeping enemies at their optimal position allows those skills to have more usefullness. I like the corpse system. Personally I changed my group comp more on stalling(Hellion stun ftw) the front row and sniping the back row enemies first. This lost me dps, but made stress management way easier because the stress spammers(goblet dudes) in the back row had less uptime. Want to focus on heavy dps melee attacks? Better have some corpse removing skills in your party. I think the problem with the corpse system is, that gamers just expect defeated enemies to instantly vanish into oblivion, because every other game does it that way.

[@noxigniter]

CS is not problematic, it's an ok solution, like I said. Big body obstructing is fine, love that, but how average enemy can be a meat shield if little corpse, you know, falls, and we are not commanding young hobbits? Some slug or freaking bunch of bones obstructing my battle after being smashed? Meh. 1. I'm not saying monsters must be buffed to compete with full party, just buffed somehow. «You know after a few fights»? Yes, so the fighters in this game should know! What kind of a horror you are, if you don't have tricks to show after a fight have changed drastically? Or we suppose to play not only 1d fights, but against 1d fighters? 2. It is really good point about tactical options. But you really think that bringing sponges on battlefield is better solution than, for example, just buffing eldritch horrors? You know - heroes are losing they mind when party member dies, but monsters are getting more and more desperate to dodge shit and kill heroes. Want to focus on heavy dps melee attacks? Better have some tricks to deal with dodge buffs and bigger blows if you don't killed them fast, because those bastards aren't taking vanishing easily. Tactic of "stun first, kill backrow shit, everyone sanity is intact, destroy others" still there and legit. I still see only balance problems - not overdo buffs, while dealing with a problem of fast crumble.

[@Schemilix]

That's wild about the corpses. They add a new level and really force you to consider your movesets.

[@wonderguardstalker]

I'm really surprised how much talk of corpses there is. I started after their introduction and they seem completely normal to me. Was it just because people were upset that they had to change strategy?

[@Quincy_Morris]

I'll never understand the hate of the corpse mechanic

[@Obzerver]

I'd like some genuine input as this comment confuses me. You can't attack over it because it's physical object in your way (like there was a chair or something else there). And you get rid of it by hitting it more because that means you're cutting the large obstacle into smaller pieces thus it becomes less of an obstacle. That's how I always thought of it and it seemed pretty intuitive to me. How did you think of it? Likely retort is: "Well can't I just go around it?" to which my reply is: yes, and you do. If you don't hit a corpse for a few turns it disappears. So narratively: you're characters moved to a position where it's no longer an obstacle but it took some time for the battle to progress to that point. This was a gameplay consideration first though so I'll admit there might be better ways of dressing up having the enemies not shift for a few turns after someone dies. How would you have liked to seen that implemented?

[@Sigefreadthebulmunk]

Short answer, gameplay balance. Before corpses the optimal party consisted of a speed boosted leper and crusader and a plague doctor with blinding gas. Maybe a vestal or jester for stess or health healing Blind gas the back row, delete the first two targets second two targets are out of position and cant use good attacks at all. Now this would be fine... Except this became the ONLY strategy. The game was flat, this adds strategic layering to it. Do I focus down the heavy hitters in front and let the back lines go unchecked for a few extra turns while I clear corpses with the old strategy? Do I focus down the back line with ranged fighters and take a bit of a physical beating in the process but ultimately keep most enemies in range of skills at all times? Or do I spread my damage thin and try and take out the enemies with DOT effects so that they dont leave corpses at all.

[@darkwatershadow]

Well they added two dramatic gameplay changes to the same patch without playtesting them beforehand, they didn't tell anybody about the new mechanics before they launched (at least I didn't remember reading anything about it before the patch), and they didn't work on balancing them before release. I would have been surprised if people hadn't gotten upset. Adding the ability to toggle them off was the smartest thing Red Hook ever did. It brought back some disenfranchised players and helped get rid of some of the ill will. It even gave players a way to keep enjoying the game while Red Hook worked on balancing the new mechanics and making them less unreasonable.

[@jessegauthier6985]

+The Baron I always assumed it was more of a simulation of fighting in a room. When you slaughter the front-line tanks, the ranged archer is gonna get back and shoot from afar. Hitting the corpses is the time taken for your adventurers to chase them down. Ik this prob isn't it at all, but its what I imagined :P

[@JWSoul]

darkwatershadow Not playing with corpses is effectively not playing the game properly!

[@GriffinKneesock]

I think Red Hook is what most small studios should go to be. Also small nitpick in the intro. Darkest Dungeon isn't light fantasy. Its Dark Fantasy, a la Warhammer, Dark Souls, Ravenloft, etc.

[@noriringtail7428]

Well 'Light Fantasy' means no orcs or elves, whereas 'Dark Fantasy' is a tonal thing. So in a way it's a Dark Light Fantasy?

[@GriffinKneesock]

I thought that is what the difference between Low/High fantasy was?

[@zavierlee695]

Maybe "low fantasy" would have worked better, haha.

[@SlavicusVile]

As Nori said, I'm pretty sure he meant "light fantasy" in the same way you would say "historical fiction". It's heavily based on reality (people get stressed, all of the characters could be found at some point in time), but there are a few mechanics that bring the "fantasy" element in (all of the "Eldritch" stuff, the fishmen), and in theory you could remove all of the fantasy stuff and still have a solid game. Fantasy, clarified in a single comment! Kappa

[@toprak3479]

Darkest Dungeon isn't low fantasy, guys. Cosmic horror and low fantasy can't be present at the same time. Cosmic horror's basic premise is that there are beings way outside of human mind's comprehension. It's SUPERnatural. In low fantasy, everything is natural, believable. Monsters are actually other humans that were raised by X animals in Y place or they're just wearing corpses of animals to look like monsters or whatever. In Darkest Dungeon, they're goddamn monsters, mate, there's no doubt. I would've thought it would be easy for people to realize DD is as its name implies, DARK fantasy. Am I just being stupid or am I right?

[@alchemicpunk1509]

"Kick them in the nuts with specific and carefully crafted purpose." I might just buy the game now.

[@yamchadragonball6983]

Now i want a Wayne June narration of "Kick them in the nuts with specific and carefully crafted purpose"

[@M33f3r]

Slowly, gently, This is how a life is taken. But always remember that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

[@ZiNLP]

The game where i can have a light-sensitive warrior of light, who has quick reflexes, but slow reflexes, and becomes a weald explorer after exploring the ruins is indeed brilliant! Other brilliant stuff: - Get syphilis from reading a book. - Starve after having a feast and getting full.

[@JohnBASIL1]

I thought those quirks would cancel each other out.

[@demetus4046]

Gay yea they do this man is full of shit

[@Happojee]

Ye, he probably never even played the game.

[@RichterBelmont2235]

Happojee Maybe he was playing longer than you, back in the day where those stupid shit exist. And i can confirmed.

[@OnlyZunkin]

Nah, he definitely played the game. He just played it long, long ago when these funny little flaws were still present in it.

[@Demonskunk]

On the subject of The Narrator: I ran the Wendy's Tabletop RPG, Feast of Legends, and one of my players played a chicken that spoke exclusively in The Ancestor's quotes. He was everyone's favorite character.

[@xylvnking]

The corpse in the room was such a genius fix. Reminds me of a game design idea that game designers often save players from themselves, because given the opportunity they will optimize the fun out of a game.

[@craykard8325]

You definitely made me feel attached to my characters and like George RR Martin, you find ways to break them and take them away from me. Love the Lovecraftian undertones.

[@ffart8985]

How to play Darkest Dungeon: 1. Bring provisions so you won't starve or hit a obstacle 2. Party comps that make sense, E.G. No lepers in the back and Arbalests in the front 3. Comps that can hit any position, Collector and corpses become trivial 4. Stuns 5. Focus on stress dealing enemies first 6. Heal / stress heal when you can 7. If something goes wrong, just retreat and spare all your heroes Look up more detailed guides if you want.

[@noonoox12]

Goddamn, I hate your profile name

[@justthink124]

That change of review really annoyed me, to say a game is doomed because of one change of gameplay is just attention seeking and really not giving an out for the developers. People can get really awful when they bandwagon hard on things like this.

[@darkwatershadow]

To be fair it was two huge mechanical changes that weren't play tested or balanced before the patch dropped. It was not a minor change at all back when it landed. And if those changes changed the opinion of the reviewer then they have every right to change their review whether we agree with them or not. Reviews are subjective after all.

[@AlbinosaurusR3X]

There are times when one change *does* ruin a game though. I know that "journalisming" is a thing, but it's not always just bandwagon bullshit. Many players deeply disliked that change and quit as a result. It was in fact ruined for those players.

[@Changetheling]

I must have spent about 18 hours a day the first week I played. Of course I lost Reynauld and Dismas. Of course I've screamed and punched the walls in frustration. Of course I ALT+F4'ed and uninstalled the game after massive fuckups and setbacks. ...and of course I re-installed it (3 times if memory serves right) to give it a go again. If it wasn't for the artistic values and the morbid and engrossing meta-commentary I would have given up on Darkest Dungeon. It has been a long time since a game made me feel like that. That's why I love it. The only gripe I have with DD is the controller scheme. It's AWFUL.

[@RedAtMath]

I started playing at the Corpse & Hound update and never had any problem with them. Really interesting talk from a longtime fan of the game.

[@G1ingy]

My copy of Age of Empires:Age of Kings literally corrupted or somehow broke after I reloaded the game too many times when a turn went sour. Learning that HE had a hand in the game...makes a dark sort of sense now. For the record I made it as far as the Saladin chapter at the level where I had to take down two fortresses.

[@crab-dogjones4659]

I've never played without the corpses and can't imagine being upset about them. They're fine.

[@gamesharkgary7830]

This was extremely enjoyable to watch a year after launch. I'm still watching people play the game daily. I love darkest dungeon. What he said made me love it more!

[@gonzo7758]

22:32 you can actually Alt+F4 to prevent deathblows... great lengths? don't think so

[@brentramsten249]

23:00 i still remember when i found out how good demon's souls save system was... going against the blue eyed knight for the first time and i was mostly winning until i got staggered and knew i wouldnt be able to get out of the way of the next upcoming blow (that would definitely kill me). in a sudden burst of reaction time i never knew i was capable of, i pressed start, left X, up, X... which quits you out of the game. and the very millisecond that knights blade stuck my characters hitbox is the second i hit that final X. it was so close the hit sound effect didnt even have time to play when it quit to menu. i took a second, then went back and loaded my game. my character immediately played his death animation and "YOU DIED" popped up as the blue knight stared directly at the screen. god i love the souls series.

[@hugmonger]

17:44 I am so glad that players like me got acknowledged. "I really like the game, I cant play it, I will never play it again."

[@klumpos]

Listening to this reminds me of the good old days, always going through dungeons torchless, using all camps in the first room, no monsters having any prot and having a leper and hellion crit absolutely everything into oblivion.

[@EmperorZ19]

He's right that the vast majority of games put forth an expectation of success, and it's heavily conditioned a lot of the gaming population to be unable to cope with failure and setbacks. I wish there were more games like DD and more appreciation for them, they're so thrilling and rewarding. But, I understand why they're niche. I have a lot of respect for Red Hook sticking to the niche and making something uniquely appealing, rather than removing the mechanics that create tension/stress. It's not easy to stick to a design when a lot of people are rallying against it

[@godfreemorals]

I had a total party wipe on DD2 and I left it about two weeks before I played again, but once I won that dungeon it felt great. More so than completing the game itself.

[@paranoyd70]

I remember when they added corpses, and I saw it as a good mechanic. Its sad to hear that so many hated it, but I thought it added another level of depth, and saw it as a good addition. Sure, it made the game a bit tougher, but the problem was way overblown. It was a legitimate change to a legitimate issue. My only issue with the game is how punishing the stress mechanic is. Taking stress is fine, but then having to go back into town and paying large sums of gold to remove quirks & lower stress is just overly taxing. Still love the game though. Also, having the Narrator really sells the game, its such a great feature and provides plenty of inspiration to battle on. The Artwork is just fantastic.

[@jjstraka1982]

One of the best games of the last 5 years, bar-none. Some people just don't seem to get it. Imagine a JRPG battle where you aren't just spamming the A button to win, but where every single turn and action carries meaning. The best part?? The stats and numbers are always reasonable and never take off into the stratosphere like nearly every other game.

[@vaccaria6391]

and the feats like oneshotting the boss or sending a two man squad against the final boss feels like a whole new level of badass now thats something

[@selfloathinggameing]

Wowowow watching this in 2021 you can SEE how they picked apart their game and fixed their self-perceived shortcomings in DDII

[@asszudemi2647]

i was among the first buyers when the game first launched on steams early access and i remember how much i disliked the corpse mechanic at first but even though it was optional and could be turned off in the options menu i rolled with it and after a while i was getting used to it when i play darkest dungeon now i can´t even imagine playing without the corpse mechanic

[@УшаковЮрий]

I swear I've seen some guy chopping final boss in half with one swing of Leper's sword without any cheats. So, none of his team members have died through entire play.

[@BruteSparta]

Can someone please explain the speed system? For me that is the biggest gripe I have, why is my hero who has a buffed speed amount of 12 or so going behind the enemy with 6 speed (or the whole enemy team). It's extremely frustrating to have the enemy take their turn the round cycles and all of them go first causing more stress/death/healing.

[@swordsisterr]

36:18 .....you're telling me that there ARE Lovecraft audiobooks out there voiced by Wayne -fucking- June?

[@FabioDivino1129]

"What is heroism , Without madness ?"

[@oughguar]

The randomness of combat in general in the game is what made me drop it. I played the game all the way up until the final boss, everyone else came unto their maker and all that was left was the arbalest, the boss basically dead. Four turns. Four turns she was stunned in a row by the same move. The same thing happened for four curse word rounds and when she died I just gave up. I say four turns she was stunned, she actually was afflicted and passed her turn twice. Brilliant world, creative design, but the RNG actually makes me want to slam my head against a wall and curse the cruel creator for bringing me into this unrelenting torrent of agony and despair. But thanks for the fun while it lasted, ily red hook

[@deimos2278]

Darkest Dungeon: If the Enemies can't kill you. RNG can.

[@jeremysmatana2592]

I'm glad he recognizes that reading a book and going crazy is "Lovercraftian," since the "hook" of his game that he thinks is so innovative is essentially just the Sanity mechanic that the Call of Cthulhu tabletop RPG has been using since the late 1970s, on steroids.

[@adambrownbird4347]

"Q: WHEN SHOULD A GAME GO EARLY ACCESS? A: AAAAAAh when it's ready"

[@mattcat83]

The positional combat was also under-utilized relative to some JRPG's that use a similar system. A number of DD characters have daggers, but how do these characters reach mid-rank enemies in cramped quarters? Positional dancing with more characters would make much more sense with more abilities exclusive to rear, mid, and front positions.

[@TheSpiritedFendron]

the problem is that you can stay all game in the back with GR and spam darts or you can actually lunge + shadow form and play her effectively instead of relying on her weaker variant

[@spaceiguana5066]

I understand people's issue with the RNG concept. But the thing is, Dungeons and Dragons has had great success on that front with dice rolls. All you have to do is understand how to start stacking those random chances in your favor by increasing your success window on the roll. This game reminded me of Tomb of Horrors from D&D. I really dig your game Tyler Sigman. I thoroughly enjoy it, and I have failed to get past even the first necromancer. I roll like shit.

[@SomeReallyUniqueName]

Seeing that the game was heavily inspired by D&D and the old games, I'd love to play a spin-off in other fantasy environments. Something like a DD version of Champions of Krynn would rock. It would even offer RHS to sell 'adventure packs'. Kinda like Telltale Series. While playing DD I always felt like this game style has soooo much potential.

[@PaxTorumin]

So when does the Trashman DLC class come out?

[@Lobster_Lars]

So he's saying that the whole game is designed to be unmanageable. You can't keep up with the damage and stress your characters take during quests. You can't keep up the afflictions and mental issues they get during quests. And you can't keep up with the levels of the bad guys with all the new recruits you'll be taking in because your seasoned Heroes keep breaking. Going for realism in a game where you fight eldritch abominations was not a good idea.

[@Changetheling]

So the cryhard commenting says he doesn't like the way the game kicked his/her ass. He/she ignores how to manage stress and damage. Hard to give him/her a position of authority. He/she can't deal with the fact that adventuring brings to the management table. Hard to let him/her manage anything. He/she doesn't know how to prevent a hero from breaking. Hard to give him/her the choice to lead a team if things don't go his/her way. He/she thinks the game goes for realism when you get syphilis from reading a book. Hard to take his/her opinion into account for anything Darkest Dungeon related. But easy to pwn.

[@EmperorZ19]

Stress and damage outpace relief and healing within the mission, but that's why you need to finish the mission before your party runs out of steam Negative quirks are largely manageable. You should ignore or play around most of them, and only remove the worst ones You can keep up with enemy levels. A seasoned hero is worth paying to care for, so they shouldnt just "break". Losses occasionally happen, but they shouldnt be frequent Many obstacles in DD cannot be negated or solved, but they can all be managed

[@paulb4334]

Besides the grinding midgame I enjoyed it quite a lot. The talk gave quite an insight in how it came all together. But how come that a Designer gives a death by bullet point presentation instead of a carefully crafted eyperience?

[@GameoverGamedev]

I honestly don't understand the fuss about corpses. I really think that they add a lot to the game, sure it's harder. But it's the deeper combat and tougher difficulty that was initially designed. So I think it's great that they achieved that. At least they give you an option to remove it if you hate it :)

[@neilbedwell7763]

im only 5min into the vid but i just have to say: Darkest Dungeon was the most fun i've had in single player in so very long. I get attached to my characters and feel really awful for them but, even as 1's and 0's, seeing them overcome their weaknesses and achieve their own goals was more rewarding than in any other game i tihnk i've ever played

[@Changetheling]

Same feeling.

[@meleemastermaa1449]

Game is good. You need a good strategy to overcome the bad RNG, on the bright side, if the RNG helps you, you can clear entire dungeons with minimal stress.

[@MrDuncanBelfast]

Today I learned that having to learn, interact with, and work within a game's mechanics is Artificial Difficulty.

[@allanredhill8682]

No its called not catering to everyones taste xd

[@Justanotherconsumer]

All difficulty is artificial by that definition.

[@antonskor8127]

@@allanredhill8682 Don’t be a neckbeard

[@Halexar]

I still think the Heart Attack, Corpses and many enemies having +PROT % as really reckless decisions. And I hope you understand that the game behaves completely differently that way. Also considering the fact that with those obstacles in place you NEED to create more ways to deal with them, which you sort of did. That said I absolutely love just about everything else about Dankest Dungeon, and I hope you keep making games!

[@veng3r663]

What REALLY sucks is that we now have to carry up to two MORE additional supply items (Blood & Laudanum) which further REDUCES our already painfully limited backpack carrying capacity... >:/

[@lawrencestanley8989]

But the important question... After full release, did you play it, and if you did, how many attempts did it take you to beat it? If the game can kick the ass of its developers, I don't feel as bad.

[@blooddrinkerS]

Even tho i don't really enjoy the game, i'm amazed by this team's idea with the 4 pillars. Brilliant

[@jimlockeyarchive3198]

I left this game unfinished because it was such a time suck... but I did love it. Inspired to go back to it now

[@BigSchim]

He said he felt that the walking and curios wasn't where he wanted it to be. I can see what he's saying. But my perspective is that in this game where poor choice leads to death I find that the screen before you launch the adventure is exciting. Yes it's been years since the game has come out and you can look up optimal tools to bring but even when I bring the right stuff every time I still like the planning part. Can I save money by bringing less torches? What if I get a lot of this kind of loot, maybe the holy water was a waste of money, etc. The greed of amassing fortune in relics or gold has a lot of play in those little walking segments and of course there's a Wayne June quote for that. And of course there's the moments where your kleptomaniac gets poisoned despite you having 4 bandages to reach into that tree!

[@nathancheema1091]

Recent player to the game and I tried going blind at first and I was making barely any progress and was getting wrecked by stress constantly. It was only till I watched a few guides online what I should be aiming for and each classes strengths that I am actually enjoying the game now quite abit. Doesn't mean I don't get screwed alot by RNG etc but least I now have the knowledge to make informed decisions. Lost 3 characters so far at week 30. Going in blind and losing everything over something easily avoidable can make you quit the game permanently.

[@politicallycorrectredskin796]

I just don't understand why people got so worked up about the corpses. Before this patch the game had become silly easy. A lot of the enemies didn't even work as intended because they spent basically no time in the back rows. It needed a fix, and this was a fine one I thought.

[@570y3n]

I LOVED and STILL LOVE D.D. It's tough, but beatable. It really makes you actually feel the pressure. I don't really like how grindy it is, but the game is amazing

[@b1ffd]

Any presentation that includes a Halfling Hot Pot gets my seal of approval

[@crazycatladyinc9559]

A very awesome video for honesty. Mr. Sigman deserves a medal for honesty, so take a little consolation in that, because some of these game errors are experienced by the player as profoundly dishonest, and a main reason some of the features are hated.

[@skeletonwizard708]

I'm glad for the recognition that Heavy Lore isn't always the best choice. XCOM/RogueLike/OneDeath systems really do favor framework over forcefeed.

[@redbeardnj]

For all you guys who love the narrator as much as me, i made a niche club on Xbox strictly for posting your favorite narrator quotes. With the intent to collect and read all his brilliant dialogue quotes without shuffling through pics/vids/etc. If your interested its called Darkest Dungeon Fan Quotes. I apologize for kind of advertising, but this isnt about popularity, and more just for us crazy fans :)

[@elementz301]

Find it weird how salty people were about the corpse system. I can't imagine playing without it, it'd make the game so much easier in a bad way

[@mrpalmero1]

Darkest Dungeon taught me books are the deadliest creatures

[@Rereversed]

I didn't realize it was possible to lose against the necromancer.

[@mso2013]

i guess you never made it to lvl 5

[@Changetheling]

I lost 3 characters against the final Necromancer and beat it, but ended with an afflicted Abomination on 1st row and a shield skeleton (aka fucked), so I had to escape the fight, lost ALL of my fallen chars trinkets because of it, but the mission was considered successful. Shit.

[@steveejohnson7932]

Ikr. Just kill the skeletons he spawns, they dont even get an attack before they're dead most of the time.

[@luccasliuti8098]

That happens when you dont bring a crusader and a plague doctor to the fight.

[@StrumpanzerFuhrer]

Thank you for making this available to the community!

[@ChBoler]

My 2 cents; the RNG was grating mostly because there was no way to make meaningful decisions. Curios were just a test of if you were smart enough to open the wiki. Running away from an encounter usually cost you just as much, if not more than just continuing, because it was not a guarantee and you still had to pay for stress. Most trinkets were trash, save for a few of the obvious best ones, obtained completely randomly. Bosses were DPS checks, the most efficient way to beat every boss in the game is to ignore their perks, save for maybe the cannon bosses. Positive hero traits were not worth the lock-in cost unless you are rolling in gold. The game never felt hard to me, at all. It felt boring. Once you figured out the basics, it was really just rolling dice and going through the motions until you got a party to 6, then doing it with other characters to fund their gear and skills. Once I got to the end and saw the timesink that was waiting for me, I just didn't care enough to continue. I didn't give up because I couldn't do it, I gave up because I had better shit to do.

[@ZippytheHappyChimp]

Clearly, I've learned the wrong lessions. I have zero attachment to any of the meatsacks that stumble out of the stagecoach. Unless you're 1-2 fights from the finish of the dungeon, it's not worth fighting WITH afflictions; just cancel out and move on. Throw them away if they're too broken.

[@raptor167]

I mean, you can do that. But, what happens if you are low on cash, and throwing him out means you don't have a veteran team anymore, which makes shit a bitch to progress at all. Game makes you make some really tough decisions, so you gotta pick the best of 2 evils

[@raptor167]

I mean, yeah, you can do a lot of different playstyles for this game, where you can get attached to characters and see them rise up past what they were, and either see them turn to be afflicted and insane, or towards being stalwart or brave. Or you can play like it is just a buisness management, where everyone is just numbers and stats, and play it like that where you have to take into account the loss and gain to everything you do. Or you can play like I play, and do half-and-half to with these 2 playstyles, and get like, the best of both worlds

[@raptor167]

@@Big_Dai If the game is getting too grindy, you are playing it wrong. Specific characters are supposed to be there to balance out that grind, giving you lots of money and heirlooms. You just have to play smart and that is all. You can get to endgame in like, 40 weeks and beat the game basically if you know the right strategies and stuff so if you complain about grinding, well get better knowledge of the game

[@Babbleplay]

My review : 5 Stars until I get a party wipe due to something like getting screwed over by a 28 HP crit killing a character from near full health to death's door in one round. Then score drops to 2 out of 5 for a day or two.

[@JorgeBlue55]

This video sold me so well the game

[@Vtubears]

Really good postmortem. I dont play DD but as a talk explaining design philosophies its extremely informative.

[@LadyLynxes]

This game has been fun since I got it in early access. The "proper" way to play the game is not obvious at all. Chain stunning two enemies with barbaric yawp in order to squeeze three more rounds of healing from your vestal and stress healing from your jester is not obvious for new players.

[@Alex-0597]

Well, you do get a bunch of stress per round after too many turns, and I think there's even a chance of new enemies joining the fray.

[@LadyLynxes]

If there are two or more enemies left, or one specific enemy in the cove dungeon (the defender), there is no stalling penalty or reinforcements.

[@coffeecaveman123]

I really wish I didn't know that about the final boss, and that I had experienced it first hand. Would've really appreciated a PRE-SPOILER, spoiler warning, or a timestamp to skip past the spoiler.

[@robertnees9781]

The first 2 minutes and 48 seconds should be watched (and enjoyed) by all game devs.

[@mateusfolletto6142]

>Buys a game with a Lovecraftian vibe that clearly states that it will fuck you in the ass, making your characters insane and don't allowing you to be a god among men. >Complains and whines that characters get scared and insane and the game don't allow him to have full control about everything, unrealisticly deffing the natural things like fear and aversion.