Did the Apostles Die for a Lie?

Is this popular Christian argument based on the facts? Let's find out.
Dr. Shachterle's article:
www.bartehrman...
▼DARKMATTER2525▼
►MY BOOKS - www.amazon.com...
►PATREON - / darkmatter2525
►KZbin MEMBERSHIP - / @darkmatter2525
►MERCH - darkmatter.mys...
►SUBSCRIBESTAR - www.subscribes...
►MY AUTHOR PAGE - www.amazon.com...
My channel relies on independent support from people like you. I greatly appreciate that you've enabled me to do this, and I shall endeavor to remain worthy of your support. Thank you! If you're interested in my other work, check out the fantasy novels I've written, availiable on Amazon under JD Matter.
▼PLAYLISTS▼
►Rise of the Exile Audiobook - • Rise of the Exile (Aud...
►COURTROOM DRAMAS - • Courtroom Dramas
►POWER CORRUPTS - • Power Corrupts (Part 1)
►BIBLE CARTOONS - • Bible Cartoons by Dark...
►ATHEISTIC ANIMATIONS - • Atheistic Animations
►GOD & JEFFERY - • God & Jeffery
►NON-CARTOONS - • Non-Cartoons by DarkMa...
►POLITICAL CARTOONS - • Political Cartoons of ...
►MISC VIDEOS - • Misc Videos by DarkMat...

[@RoadHammer1972]

I used to think the argument that no one would ever die for a lie to be convincing but then I heard a podcast about the Heavens Gate cult. People can and will die for things they wholeheartedly believe to be true, that doesn’t make it true otherwise we’d have to concede that these people met the mother ship

[@roz_hero]

Maybe

[@AuroraBoarder1]

Best comment!

[@julietfischer5056]

They believed. To them, it was _not_ a lie. Objectively, they were mistaken because there was no spaceship (let alone the one they expected).

[@johnmcgraw3568]

Didn't they mutilate themselves first?

[@RoadHammer1972]

@@julietfischer5056 right, that’s my point. A willingness to die for a belief is not proof that said belief is objectively true

[@bass-dc9175]

The main flaw of the "who would die for a lie?" argument is: It assumes perfect knowledge of the operators. People can ofcourse die for a lie, especially: If they do not know that it is a lie.

[@utes5532]

Yep. Plenty of cultists have died for their beliefs, and I really don't think Christians would be willing to grant the validity of their belief any points for that.

[@NovaSaber]

They really overestimate the number of people who would have had to be in on the lie for it to begin as a lie. Not that it had to be a deliberate lie by even the first person who said it; the point is the number of people who would have had to be claiming to have seen a resurrected Jesus could easily have been as low as 2.

[@Imahuckleberry]

Well said, well said

[@claytonveno3710]

Well not really because even If they know its a lie they could still have been willing to lay down they're lives for a variety of theological or cultural reasons, or simply to maintain they're own reputation after the lie is exposed. Also anyone who has died in religious warfare in the name of faith has pretty much died for a lie.

[@tiwoni972mad]

They couldn't have not known it was a lie because they were saying that they themselves saw the risen Jesus. You cannot say that, not knowing if what you're saying is true or not.

[@shiroamakusa8075]

"No one would ever die for a lie! Jesus has risen!" "What about all the other people who died for their non-Christian religions?" "Well, they were just deluded fools throwing their lives away for a lie!"

[@Theleaver5088]

I was just about to comment on this but yeah. Whenever people say nobody would die for a lie because they genuinely believe Jesus rose from the dead, I can't help but think of other religious people who died for their religion. But Christian apologists will still parrot this ( idk why but this reminded me of David Wood's recent video on this very topic)

[@thezer0effect]

True

[@irondevil22]

The Bible says a lot of odd stuff that isn't true or doesn't make sense

[@EdwardGatey]

​@@Theleaver5088Nazi's, Japanese death cultists, Waco, TX, ...

[@AssassinoJake]

​@anakinskywalker5088 If you look into the story of Joesph Smith, founder of the church of Jesus christ of latter day saints. It was clear that he was making things up to go into a power trip and got in too deep and couldn't back out.

[@MisterRorschach90]

Even as a Christian I heard this argument all the time and couldn’t help but think of 9/11 or other terrorist suicide attacks before. Even imperial Japan saw the emperor as god and their kamikaze and suicide charge attacks were seen as divine instructions. People are capable of believing false things just as strongly as true things.

[@Grim_Beard]

In fairness, many kamikaze pilots did not go willingly.

[@ChevySamk]

in fairness, christians are talking about the original disciples and paul. even later martyrdoms don't fit the bill of coercion by force, blind faith, or to enact harm on other people. these people died hearing about events that happened in a particular time, amplified by how the disciples and paul died for what they claimed to have seen. it was either a lie by 13 or so people and they all happen to be bold enough to take it to the grave, or they had group hallucinations happening to them over and over again at the perfect time in history to have them happen.

[@Grim_Beard]

@@ChevySamk You're assuming a lot there, including that there actually were 12 disciples and that they and Paul really were executed for their beliefs. Those are not established historical facts. The disciples are characters in stories of mostly unknown authorship and origin - stories that have inconsistencies both with each other and with known facts. For example, we know that the census which is a central part of the Jesus birth narrative never happened. The deaths of these alleged disciples and of Paul are matters of church tradition, not historical record. They also don't hold up to scrutiny, as the video you're commenting on made very clear.

[@yoshreimi]

It's the Main issue in why wars keep happening and education is unfunded

[@Dennis-nc3vw]

Even as a NON-Christian I’m having trouble keeping my temper here because everyone is missing the point. The question is would the apostles die for what THEY THEMSELVES know is a lie, ie a story they fabricated about Jesus’ coming back from the dead to visit them.

[@Dr_Wrong]

_"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened."_ 2,000 yrs later..

[@Muladeseis]

Even if the humanity were dead in that same generation because of, let's say, an asteroid, that still wouldn't demonstrate they were predicting anything.

[@shaunelliott8583]

Just gotta redefine what a generation is, just like with the "days" of creation

[@Muladeseis]

@@shaunelliott8583 let's redefine then all the words and the facts of the world so that the bible can be really called inerrant.

[@shaunelliott8583]

@@Muladeseis nah let's just redefine "inerrant" lol

[@wantedsavage7776]

Generation, during those events started->till the end a generation won’t pass.

[@jenna2431]

I had bereavement hallucinations after the death of my husband. It was every bit like he was there, talking to me. It took many months for them to taper off and finally not happen anymore. After being shocked by the first one, I was fascinated by them. They were very vivid. But he definitely didn't resurrect from the dead.

[@jmwild1]

I went through this after my dad died. I was also on anti-depressants that really increased the acuity of my dreams, I would believe that my dad and grandfather were not dead, and I'd wake up and have a really hard time differentiating between what I dreamed about and what was real. We had sold our father's house and I would dream that I went back to the house after the new homeowners had moved in, that felt super real too, I actually believed I had done it, it was a surreal experience.

[@krembryle]

Exactly! My theory is that Jesus stayed dead and someone stole the body from the tomb. Then a few of his followers dreamed of/hallucinated Jesus. If he truly came back from being death, there would be another part of the Bible capturing his life after his death.

[@eho6380]

Losing someone or something can have deep impacts, so our minds try to compensate by thinking that we have not lost anything, sadly that isn't true.

[@kimsland999]

I had to sleep in the same room as my brother when growing up. Finally moving out, I was awoken by heavy breathing in a house on my own!!! I can't tell you how scary that is. It took months to work out: Oh its just in my mind from growing up and hearing this every night! Imagine waking up hearing breathing in a house where no one else is? I even held my breath to prove to myself it wasn't me, but still heard it!!!! After I finally worked out it was the exact sound of my brother, it began to wear off, I haven't heard it for decades now. Immature people tend to jump to conclusions. Imagine if a parent were there too, and the parent said: OH that's the Jesus monster. Subsequently getting confirmation bias over a complete lie.

[@coffinmyface4237]

​@@krembrylethere was no tomb, he was thrown into a mass grave like every other criminal tortured to death by crucifixion not because theres any concrete evidence, hell theres barely evidence that jesus was ever real, but because logically why would he ever be entombed in the first place, standard procedure was to break their legs to check if they died and throw em in a pit with the others, other than to add legitimacy to later claims of his resurrection.

[@MrElionor]

"Who would die for a lie" anyone who wholeheartedly believed it

[@LiftUpYourEyes]

This sentence is so stupid it blows my mind. You're twisting this complex event into an idiot balloon. It wasn't a lie They died for, they died for the truth. They died because they witnessed a man who could resurrect the dead and be resurrected from the dead, they died preaching his good news because it's the entire point of our existence. It's the glory of God they died for. And they did it without fear or bitterness. Christians don't care if you mock us for believing it. We believe it because we experience Jesus Christ in a way you can't even begin to understand. You have to desire God for Christ to save you. Or you will never be saved. Never.

[@aralornwolf3140]

Or people who think dying for the lie will protect something they value more than their own life...

[@pythondrink]

​@@aralornwolf3140 I've said this too. I swear, it's like Christians can't think. It's just a softball question.

[@rageplays549]

Why the UPA flag?

[@MrElionor]

@@rageplays549 why do you use your pfp?

[@JRWins]

When I first came out as an atheist my older brother was really upset. He said I was discounting all the evidence I’ve seen that proved god existed, when in fact I haven’t seen anything or could have been explained as a natural phenomenon. I challenged him to find me proof of god outside of the Bible, in response he kept on bringing up biblical stories. I pointed out that just because something is written in the Bible doesn’t make it true.

[@pineapplepenumbra]

Porgy & Bess, "It ain't necessarily so."

[@enki354]

@@pineapplepenumbra That's what I say.

[@apocalypze83]

Just take a heroic dose of the flesh of the gods. atheism won't be necessary any longer. You won't need faith you will have been baptized by the holy Spirit of experience of the divine. 😂🤣😹😸💪🧘

[@enki354]

@@apocalypze83 Which Holy Spirit?

[@pineapplepenumbra]

@@apocalypze83 Just checking, you were joking, right?

[@uncleanunicorn4571]

Good Question, Could you order your own crucifixion Method the way you would order a burger from wendy's? " I'd like the upside down cross with a side of hot irons." " Thank you for dying with us sir."

[@julietfischer5056]

Peter asked to be crucified upside-down because he (purportedly) did not think himself worthy of dying just like Jesus did.

[@flameone4705]

@@julietfischer5056 The irony is that being crucified upside down is probably worse. I can’t imagine what that does to the organs. Plus plenty of people have died worse deaths than Jesus, yet that somehow doesn’t cleanse them of their sins in the afterlife

[@FoursWithin]

​@@flameone4705 I've pointed out to numerous Christians that many people have suffered worse deaths than Jesus. The majority of them are flabbergasted that I'd even insinuate such an idea. Then after I give details some will concede a bit by saying , "Yeah , humans have suffered but none have raised from the dead except their Savior." Such logic ! Such empathy. 🤡 They just can't wrap their head around a single truth that invalidates their previous beliefs. It's a cult mentality.

[@donnievance1942]

@@julietfischer5056 I guess you didn't listen to the video. Peter was reported to have died that way. There is no actual evidence that was the case.

[@julietfischer5056]

@@donnievance1942- That's how the story goes. No evidence that it happened or that the Romans would have honored such a request. (It does make a fun way to mess with the sort of people who think an inverted cross is inherently Satanic.)

[@doubtingflock1073]

A lie will make it around the world three times while the truth is still putting its shoes on.

[@ChrisPyle]

I wonder why lies don't wear shoes?

[@mohitnair2541]

@@ChrisPylebecause lies don’t care about standards

[@popp5926]

A lie will go viral on three different social media platforms while the truth gets buried by the algorithm.

[@GoAway-vj4vj]

I both love this comment and hate the fact that it is true, nice one.

[@wolfwing1]

I've said your last point many a time, along the lines of, "I find it so funny that Christians seem to think people were biggers skeptics 2000 years ago then they are now."

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

People often say, “I’m not hurting anyone so it’s ok to sin (lying, stealing, sexual sins, disrespecting parents etc)” The same God who said to love your neighbour first said to love Him to the best of your ability. If you carry on sinning, then you do not love God but are selfish like the devil so you will be joined to your father in hell or repent of your sins and believe in Jesus as God so Jesus adopts you as His child and you will join Him in Heaven forever.

[@wolfwing1]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 yes it's selfish not to worship and love a narcacistsic asshole who hates love.

[@iodias]

They probably were. Take into account that the Israelites at the time were extremely zealous in comparison to other ancient peoples at the time, they had their own concept of absolute truth, which before the Law was fulfilled, would have been the law and the prophets. They would have had even more reason than anyone today to be skeptical of all of the things that Jesus was claiming, because from their youth they were brought up with their own beliefs. Not a single one of them would have had any reason to readily give up their law and prophets, unless they were met with absolute undeniable proof that Jesus Christ is the Living God. One of Jesus' apostles even had a nickname, 'doubting thomas', because he refused to believe that the Lord was resurrected until he saw him risen with his own two eyes. This is where the scripture 'blessed are those who have believed without having seen' comes from.

[@wolfwing1]

@@iodias really? The same people that were following other such religious leaders around the time? Yeah sorry they were not special in being extra skeptical.

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

@@iodias In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.

[@yurdp]

Anyone who has died or has been killed over faith has died for a lie.

[@stevenpike7857]

Like the Muslim pilots during 9/11

[@RustyWalker]

People can be sincerely mistaken, and often are. Not everything that is false is "a lie."

[@miloofcroton1069]

If you believe a lie enough, you believe it’s fact. It’s simple but very true.

[@invasive835]

This isnt true, but religious wise sure.

[@julietfischer5056]

@@miloofcroton1069- If you _tell_ a lie often enough, you come to believe it. Nobody dies for something they _know_ is a lie unless there's some sort of gain for their side.

[@brianew]

I don't even want to die for the truth, much less a lie

[@crabb9966]

That's because you don't know the truth.

[@brianew]

@@crabb9966 No I don't. Did I claim to know the truth?

[@crabb9966]

@@brianew how do you know you would not die for it if you have no idea?

[@tornay131]

A better question is how can someone claim the truth but can't show it to be true.

[@toonyandfriends1915]

@@tornay131 you can't show to me that you have a mind. However do you believe that such a proposition "i have a mind" is true?

[@chaiman3761]

I read that book 30 years ago and believed it because I didn't hear the other side and look at facts. So glad for the Internet and learn about critical thinking, this helped me to deconstruct.

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.

[@chaiman3761]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 absolute rubbish. Paul failed apocalypse. The end did not come in his day!

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

@@chaiman3761 God through the Holy Spirit has shown me several things relating to the afterlife with the purpose of convincing people like yourself. Stuff like Heaven and Hell, Angels, and evil Spirits the Lord Jesus (not worthy at all), a miracle happened to me that saved my life (thank you God) & so much more. I am more than happy to give further details.

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

@@chaiman3761 Jesus loves you and wants to save you from the fiery pit

[@chaiman3761]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 the bible is not univocal. The scriptures have changed over time with a of editing.

[@winstonsmith8597]

Unfortunately. The people that need to see videos like this refuse to watch them.

[@kerianhalcon3557]

I have been saying that for years. Also people who really need to see Idiocracy will never understand that they are Cletus.

[@LiftUpYourEyes]

Why do we need to see them? What's the end game? What's the benefit of abandoning God for these lies?

[@ДжесикаИванова-б8ф]

​@@LiftUpYourEyesyou didn't listen right ? Are you for real ? Open up your eyes ,your theology is flawed !

[@crabb9966]

I guess you think I should watch it. I didn't find it too valuable

[@im_aleey]

​@@crabb9966why not you're here already? Also if your beliefs are true, they should be able to stand simple forward scrutiny.

[@chidori7234]

"Paul baptises a lion, it becomes Christian, and rejects a lioness' advances.". Okay that's actually hilarious lmaoo

[@Arlondev]

"No one has ever died for a lie!" The hundreds of thousands of pagans who were killed by Christians for their religion: "am I a joke to you?"

[@mrbaldhead6110]

yeah, they are

[@bodricthered]

Not even that, just airbrushed from history. Along with the vast majority of martyrs for other religions.

[@Dennis-nc3vw]

Everyone is missing the point, the question is if the apostles would die for what they themselves know is a lie, ie a story they fabricated about meeting a resurrected Jesus.

[@valivali8104]

​@@Dennis-nc3vw founder of Heaven's Gate killed himself when he told his followers to take poison so they could be transported to space ship...

[@khai96x]

There's an even bigger lies that Western Atheist Liberals believe: "People kill for their religion". In truth, people kill in the name of religion to gain material interests. Religions and ideologies are but tools, not a goal.

[@abstraction6212]

Short answer: Yes. Designed to be deceived.

[@Dan-uf2vh]

was going to comment the exact same thing -- "Short answer: Yes" 🤣

[@o-hogameplay185]

so if people would not die for a lie, then does it mean that every religion is true that has a martyr? i think it is a massive own goal there

[@aimliard2276]

Even outside religion. The Nazis thought god was with them and died for nothing because they thought they're the superior race and the Fuhrer is god representative on earth. They too died for a lie.

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

People often say, “I’m not hurting anyone so it’s ok to sin (lying, stealing, sexual sins, disrespecting parents etc)” The same God who said to love your neighbour first said to love Him to the best of your ability. If you carry on sinning, then you do not love God but are selfish like the devil so you will be joined to your father in hell or repent of your sins and believe in Jesus as God so Jesus adopts you as His child and you will join Him in Heaven forever.

[@aimliard2276]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 you even like your own comment how pitiful however your word salad means nothing here. The people talking like you are the most evil sinful selfish people out there. If you're so holy become a new saint. Pharisee.

[@o-hogameplay185]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 are you just a troll or you actually believe this? because if you actually believe in it, then i can't do anything other than to feel sorry for you.

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

@@o-hogameplay185 I don't simply believe i know God through the Holy Spirit has shown me several things relating to the afterlife with the purpose of convincing people like yourself. Stuff like Heaven and Hell, Angels, and evil Spirits the Lord Jesus (not worthy at all), a miracle happened to me that saved my life (thank you God) & so much more. I am more than happy to give further details.

[@Jesse_222]

The most true Christian book ever is, 88 reasons why the rapture will be in 1988!!

[@Spookatz.]

Yikes

[@Mikewee777]

1400's version is flagged by the youtube censors.

[@tomlorenz4344]

Now there’s a gem!

[@chromographia106]

89 reasons why the rapture will be in 1989! lol (he actually made a sequel)

[@justice8718]

When the rapture happens, you fiends will claim the aliens did it. Seriously, you people are horrible.

[@keyserwillhelm7673]

Who would die for a lie? Millions of German Soldiers.

[@miskatonic_alumni]

Millions upon millions of human beings, likely including many who were martyred before the advent of the written word for beliefs that have been forever lost to time and knowledge.

[@im_aleey]

I guess the Aztecs were right then.

[@DIABOLICAL-6]

*Soviet anthem starts playing*

[@DMRoper1]

...and the people they killed.

[@bradleydewaynepettit]

This is a false equivalency

[@quietone2674]

The argument of "Lunatic, Liar, or Lord" has two problems with it. First of all, we have lunatics and liars in abundance, so those two will ALWAYS be the more plausible options. Second, it assumes those are the only possibilities. Nothing was written about Jesus until 30 years after the alleged incident. What if he never claimed divinity and that was just words put in his mouth? That way he'd be neither Lunatic, Liar, or Lord, but instead Lied About. And that's not considering the 5th option that this was just a story and there was no Jesus in the first place.

[@robertmccormack1208]

jesus likely did exist. but if you actually went back and met the guy (assuming you were christian) youd probably be deeply disappointed.

[@quietone2674]

@@robertmccormack1208 Most likely. You don't even have to assume the 5th option to point out the problems. Option 5 was just a bonus I threw out after the others.

[@AuroraBoarder1]

If Jesus could work all those miracles, why didn't He write his own book?

[@rosemarymceathron4037]

I believe that the myth of Jesus is the greatest lie ever sold.

[@redjirachi1]

​@@rosemarymceathron4037No, the greatest lie was that beliefs should be politicized

[@GO-GO_SO-SO]

One thing I have noticed about a lot of Christians is that they do have the capability to be critical of and question things. They question a lot of things such as evolution, LGBT movement, people with different political and religious beliefs, etc. I just wish they would start to question their own teachings. Maybe channels and videos like this can help them.

[@julietfischer5056]

Most of their 'questions' aren't searches for answers or information. They already 'know' they have the answers and think constantly asking things and making statements will somehow make all others give in and convert.

[@Finckelstein]

I'd like to agree, but given "how" they question LGBT people and evolution and other belief systems I'd say it's not a rational questioning but rather a very simple "I don't like it, therefore it must be wrong" scenario.

[@Jasonmakesvideo]

They just get mad and shutdown unfortunately....i think they perceive a threat to their identity

[@GO-GO_SO-SO]

@@julietfischer5056 Yeah, it seems their questions are more rhetorical. But at least it shows they do not just accept anything someone tells them. Maybe videos and channels like this can cause them to question aspects of their religion in the right way.

[@GO-GO_SO-SO]

@@Finckelstein You have a point. It does come more from an angle of prejudice rather than genuine curiosity to get to the truth. However, if videos like this one DarkMatter made can get them to not like some aspects of their religion and start to question those things, that would at least be a start.

[@Mister_Cool]

"Right now as I record this, an arm that was removed from the corpse alleged to be Saint Jude is currently on a pilgrimage in the United States making stops at a hundred cities. Last I heard, it was in San Diego. So if you wanna be blessed by a piece of some ancient guy's corpse, the Catholics are currently touting it around the country. Maybe you could slip by security and give it a holy high five." HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[@brielleanyez7113]

Yuk😮

[@MykolasGilbert]

I thought I saw an arm that was THUMBING its way around!!!

[@ratgirl34]

You know, I was just morbidly interested in that until the Holy High Five. Now I feel like I need to make it happen, I hope the feeling passes because that is probably outside my ability to budget for.

[@Jcs57]

The cannibalistic blood cult just keeps finding ways to be morbid.

[@lizhughes2852]

Just googled that cos thought you were joking! Fuck me! In 2024! 🙄

[@MegaAchilles23]

"Well, Your Honor, we've got plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are KINDS of evidence." - Lionel Hutz, Esq?

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.

[@extrage3061]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 No.

[@stevenpike7857]

Who would die for a lie? We see this all the time. For example, the Heavens Gate members castrated themselves and un alived themselves over a lie. Of course the people giving their lives don't see it that way.

[@gchm3503]

Or for example Jim Jones and the massive "life subscription terminations" he provoked in Jonestown in 1978 if not mistaken. So yeah, history is full of people that have died over a lie.

[@JasonHenderson]

Joseph Smith died for a lie HE TOLD

[@karenabrams8986]

I didn’t know they castrated themselves. 😮

[@donnievance1942]

@@karenabrams8986 No. I never heard that part, either. I'm skeptical.

[@kongrufus1]

@@donnievance1942 Some did, but not all. It also wasn't all of the members who ...uuh, "went to meet the mothership". Saw that in some docu I don't remember the name of. I'm sure if you Google the cult name you will find this info to be correct 🙂

[@broski365]

6:20 "Our opinion has the right to decide what is divinely inspired" - Church leaders

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.

[@BUDDYCB4]

Do you know what, even if all the apostles were crucified in martyred, that wouldn’t convince me one bit of the truth of the claims of Christianity. Devout Muslims, go to their death all the time, fully believing that what they are doing is by the power of God so that is one of the weakest arguments to me, this argument from martyrdom..

[@mrptr9013]

Don't forget the s*cidal cults... We have all the evidence in the world on those and it still doesn't make them less bs.

[@selliri590]

You need to do a little critical thinking here. If you live in a country where you’ll be killed for NOT being Muslim, what’s the difference if you die for it. It doesn’t matter over there. Islam is all they know. The apostles on the other hand, were not raised Christian. They chose to follow Jesus instead of being normal. They chose to be persecuted, it wasn’t forced upon them. But they believed him as the truth because they saw. Think before you speak

[@spacebook8923]

@@selliri590the only reason you wrote all of this is because you didn’t watch the video

[@selliri590]

@@spacebook8923 yes i did. I just think his points are illogical

[@starcatcherksp1517]

​@selliri590 In the Middle Ages Christianity was also pretty much forced.

[@p2p2p2p2p2p]

just wanted to comment, ive been following this channel for years but havent watched in a long time, thank you for helping me leave religion back then ❤

[@onedaya_martian1238]

The answer to "Who would die for a lie?" Insert a videos of plane flying into buildings recently. Worse, about religion, is how many KILL for a lie !!! That is a whole video topic.

[@AuroraBoarder1]

🎯💯‼️

[@theboombody]

I believe there are some governments that have killed in an effort to stop religion as well. There really is no easy answer.

[@Angelcity1345]

"Martyrs give credence to the strength of their convictions, not the veracity of what they believe in."

[@spaghettispoon8680]

Notice also they are called martyrs by those who need justifications for their very own motives. For all we know, they were mostly criminals from their enemy's point of view. That's why those enemies got through the trouble to kill them.

[@ChevySamk]

except when those martyrs are the ones who originally spread the message and not out of sheer faith but what they unanimously claimed to have seen.

[@Angelcity1345]

@@ChevySamk by that standard, anyone who died for their beliefs automatically makes their beliefs true like muslim martyrs, hare krishna, etc.

[@jaclo3112]

​@@ChevySamkbuy how do you know they were martyred for what they believed in? Do you have anything we can verify?

[@Davireki]

depends on the martyr

[@wenaolong]

"It's not really martyrdom, but just pissing off a king". Classic.

[@sbushido5547]

I think the idea that we shouldn't take these claims at face value, and are under no obligation to provide alternate explanations for them as if they're established facts, too often gets lost a lot in the process of debunking them.

[@donnievance1942]

Absolutely. There is nothing that is a priori credible just because it's written in 2000 year old books of magical fables and religious accounts. It's not even necessary to show that the accounts are mutually contradictory or otherwise unreliable, although I thank DarkMatter for doing that anyway. Not believing any of this horse$h!t is simply the default position. The principle involved is called "the priority of the null hypothesis." It was expressed by Christopher Hitchens as "whatever can be put forward without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." One thing I've noticed so far in these comments is that while there are Christians trying to justify the narratives of the saint's martyrdom, none of them are even trying to accomplish that by bringing forward any actual evidence. There is none, and DarkMatter has made that almost irrefutable.

[@LuciaBeans]

Thanks! Excellent episode.

[@Paulogia]

This is amazing and so valuable. Thank you!

[@phileas007]

Do I sense a future collaboration coming up?

[@zac8033]

I just saw a reel on insta from Christians making a joke about the disciples stealing the body and was reminded of this video. Love your videos 👍

[@scottcates]

May The Fourth Be With You, DarkMatter2525

[@roz_hero]

Star Wars is so good

[@FoursWithin]

Yes, the fourth is always present.

[@pheresy1367]

Indeed! May the fourth be with you ALL DAY LONG!And that's a "high four" for y'all.

[@Wastingsometimehere]

This is a hokey religion! I'll allow it though.

[@memeco50]

But not all of them but many of them would and have died for a lie. Sad wasted lives.

[@psymin0]

If Jesus was alone when tempted by Satan, then who witnessed him being tempted? Why, Satan, of course! We all know how trustworthy he is.

[@SeorkMaxx]

Actually Satan in the Bible is more reliable than the god described in the same book 😂

[@shaunelliott8583]

​@@SeorkMaxxSatan is the God of the Bible. It's obvious that after Adam and Eve disobeyed Him, God decided to abandon his creation and then Satan took over as "God". The evidence? He messed around with Abram asking him to sacrifice his son before going "psych, jk", he appeared to Moses as a burning bush (burning, and who rules a realm of eternal flame?), he committed genocide upon humans and only left enough behind to make sure we were all inbred. Obviously all evil acts that must have been committed by the most evil character, right?

[@tabularasa0606]

But if it is the bible, Satan wrote that story. But if the bible is written by Satan, Satan would be god, but then he wouldn't be tempting Jesus and not write the story.

[@Imahuckleberry]

Do you know what's weird, Satan/devil/dragon is none other than YHWH, the God of the Christians, Stews, and Muslims. According to the Jesus speaking in John 8:44. You just can't make this stuff up, it's crazy.

[@donnievance1942]

The Christian idea that the New Testament was written by eyewitnesses to Jesus' life are ignoring, not only the temptation story, but that it would have been impossible for the disciples of Jesus to have witnessed the circumstances of Jesus' birth, his prayer to God alone in the garden of Gethsemane, or been able to vouch for Jesus' mother being a virgin.

[@The0Stroy]

Every time they say "no one died for a lie" - I point everyone that died for totalitarian regimes.

[@julietfischer5056]

Most of them believed in the regimes, to one degree or another. Others were caught up and had no choice.

[@Itcouldbebunnies]

​@@julietfischer5056 Believing in a lie does not make it truth.

[@Finckelstein]

@@julietfischer5056 And who says that the so called apostles had a chance? Scenario A: They were 100% convinced and died as martyrs. That's the church story. Scenario B: They knew it was a grift but after propagating it for so long they convinced themselves of their own righteousness and still died as martyrs. Scenario C: The knew it was a grift and tried to profit from it. The authorities that arrested them didn't give a speck about them recanting their stories and just disposed of them anyway. Scenario D: It's all made up nonsense. There are infinite scenarios where you can die for a lie. This whole "No one would die for a lie" thing is just post hoc rationalization and everyone with a functioning unwashed brain should see it as such.

[@emazinglyawesome6428]

I agree US solders are really pathetic, dying for the lie of Uncle Sam

[@istvansipos9940]

why do you do that? Those regimes are proven to exist. The g0d is not even defined, let alone shown to exist. The analogy is flawed. Of course, that won't help any fan of any mythology, but you cannot really use a flawed analogy to support your argument, either.

[@af-pv7vm]

I think that if dying horribly for your beliefs makes them true then the Sikhs have this one locked down.

[@af-pv7vm]

@@Toxicpoolofreekingmascul-lj4yd Google the Sikh Martyrs 🤕

[@LAkadian]

​@Toxicpoolofreekingmascul-lj4yd Suicide bombers. Jihadists. That's a great example of dying for a lie.

[@pineapplepenumbra]

The only thing I can remember about sikhs is the storming of the temple (it might be Amritsar, I would have to look it up). What don't I know about sikhs dying horribly, that you do?

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

@@pineapplepenumbra In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.

[@pineapplepenumbra]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 "In heaven no unclean person is allowed in" The pyscho, Yahweh, would have to be chucked out, then. Btw, what does this comment have to do with mine?

[@nordicexile7378]

I watched the Heaven's Gate documentary on HBO last year. At one point they had a pre-suicide "testimony meeting" that triggered flashbacks of when I used to be a Mormon... anyway they all believed the lie and sacrificed themselves for it!

[@IvanSensei88]

Yeah that is a weak argument. Apostles died for it - therefore it must have been the truth. Ok, guess who also died? A TON of Nazi Soldiers too. Does that make Nazism good and correct? No. Just because someone died for their convictions - does not mean that conviction is automatically correct or true. Those apostles who died for their religion were likely indeed deeply convinced that it's the truth, but just because they were strongly convinced does not necessarily mean that the religion they followed actually IS true. And if someone used that as proof that the religion was true, would be an Appeal to Authority fallacy.

[@jeremyhansen9197]

I don't think the analogy is one to one. The question isn't can believers die for something they believe but is false? The question is can someone believe something is false, lie about it, but then die for it anyways?

[@jmwild1]

@@jeremyhansen9197 Or they can be deluded, they don't have to know they are lying.

[@Finckelstein]

@@jeremyhansen9197 The answer is an easy yes. The only sources we have on them "dying" for their beliefs is what the church tells us. For all we know, they could've recanted their statements and spillt the beans before being disposed of anyway. That whole thing is still just another story in a book full of made up stories.

[@IvanSensei88]

​@@jeremyhansen9197 I see, but I think the problem here is: How do we know that these believers *knew* that what they're teaching is actually false? Let's say I claim Flying Spaghetti Monster is real. If I claim this while fully being aware that it's not true - I am literally lying to you. If I claim this while being fully convinced that it IS true - I am not necessarily lying per se, but I AM stating something that's false and unknowingly spreading misinformation. Now would I be ready to die in the first scenario? Very unlikely.. so I think it would apply to those apostles too, although I don't believe they were 'lying' really.. like I said earlier I think they were deeply convinced it was the truth, but if they died to push a lie, they might be downright fanatical or crazy.

[@Arphemius]

@@jeremyhansen9197 Even if they're not deluded, there comes a time where you are just in too deep. You've become the leader of a cult, that is outlawed, you've been captured, at that point there's nothing left. Look at the Heaven's Gate cult, look at Jonestown. Did those leaders believe that they genuinely were prophets of god? Were they crazy, did they convince themselves, or did they not believe and just lie? Whatever the case, the fact is, the mentality that you will die for the cult you created is definitely a thing.

[@scottwills8539]

Even if the claim "No one would Die for a Lie" was valid, (it isn't)... there's no good evidence that any eyewitness to the resurrection was killed for that belief while having the option to recant and save themself.

[@lawlessappleking2101]

I owned a copy and thought it was a treasure. Then I grew up and realized it was just a book written by men who reference their knowledge from another book written by men. People killing people over which god is real isn’t anything new.

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.

[@extrage3061]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 No.

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

@@extrage3061 Receive the love of God or the Hate of the devil. Be Holy or be sinful. Choose light or stay in the darkness. Be selfless or selfish. Life or death. Right or wrong. Win or lose. Sins forgiven or spend eternity paying for your sins. Heaven or Hell. Choose life, choose Jesus today.

[@johnrockyryan]

"See if you can detect the layers of bullshit in the story of Phillips death" 😂 that was so George Carlin

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.

[@Mr.PeabodyTheSkeptic]

Nothing derails a conversation with a christian than asking, ' what do you believe and why'.

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.

[@Mark13091961]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 any actual truth doesnt fear the hard questions, because the truth can answer any question right? ... so take the blinkers off and ask your religion the hard questions. Ask for evidence of ANY of its magical claims. Look at the historicity of its 'holy' book. Become a skeptic and demand evidence for all claims. Just as you demand evidence for the claims of the religions you dont believe in, do the same for your own. Your religion wont mind, because its true right? - the reality of the answers might shock you

[@extrage3061]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 No.

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

@@extrage3061 People underestimate hell, it is bad because it is separation from God. In a vision I was shown a person who claimed to be Christian but started fornication (premarital sex), He died relatively young and went to hell forever (1 Cor 6:9). God’s holiness means He will not coexist with sinners forever therefore Repent (Luke 13:3) and have a relationship with Jesus.

[@barryoldern1605]

strange i would answer - Jesus because he is the example set for us to be the imager of God, the way the truth and without him we are more likely to fall into sin hurting ourselves or others. This is also proven by meta-analysis- religiosity studies and then I would cite some of those studies...pretty easy thing to respond with

[@The-Doubters-Diary]

Humans are story tellers. Our minds are made to WANT to believe. Like campfire stories--we know they are fake but it still arouses strong emotions. The apostles died for their emotions, not for lies. And like you said, we dont know how they died.

[@mikloscsuvar6097]

What was their faith based upon?

[@SurnaturalM]

Yeah, I love these stories, especially before I'm going to sleep, but it doesn't mean that I believe them. I think they died for what they wholeheartedly believe, it doesn't make these stories true either.

[@Froggsroxx]

"Yes", thank you for coming to my Ted talk

[@bodan1196]

"Who would die for a lie?" Hmm... - An individual convinced of the truth in what they believe? The strength of a belief, does not necessarily make it true. - The same individual who bets their house in a card game? "If it is true, I win big!"

[@Luraldir_Original]

There's a lot of Atheist youtubers I used to watch before I had a personal revelation and became Christian- but there's only one that I still come back to listen to. What a great man and great channel, I wish him all the best. ❤️ Stay free

[@JasonHenderson]

Good for you. I'm still waiting on mine

[@istvansipos9940]

sure. And then, although you KNEW that it was not just a mental episode, you CHOSE not to present the methodology. But you had it, right? Very clear, well defined criteria and some tons of very detailed tests to exclude EVERY mindtrick known to mankind. Right? too bad you are not all over the news with your (no doubt) very detailed research. We could know how you excluded all the known mental illnesses, all the unknown ones, and all other deities. F.e. Loki, who (as a trickster g0d) can "obviously" have some fun with your brain. "personal revalati0n" LOL

[@Arphemius]

Press X to doubt, but I hope you get cured of your mental illness if true.

[@pabloaute4355]

How was that personal revelation?

[@JasonHenderson]

@@pabloaute4355 it's personal bro. He can't talk about it

[@MoeKyorosuke]

LOL that's crazy! I remember reading this book as a kid! Gives of "if Jesus wasn't God, then why is the calendar divided by him?" vibes.

[@AuroraBoarder1]

I was taught that. It doesn't explain why they don't know the year Jesus was born.

[@justice8718]

But the fact every society dictates their calendars around Christ is stupid weird.

[@shadegreen5351]

​@@justice8718Not every society does. 4 countries recognize alternate date keeping systems. Iran, Afghanistan, Ethiopia, and Nepal. The rest of the world, especially those colonised from European Houses of Christendom, uses the Gregorian calander. The Islamic Hijri says it is 1445 AH The Hebrew calander says it is AM 5784 The Ethiopian calander says it is 2016 AD The Nepali Bikram Sambat says it is 2081 Bikram. The Hebrew calander is used in conjunction with the Gregorian calander when scheduling dates for both secular and religious holidays in the country. Iran, Afghanistan, and a few of the nomadic tribes use the Hijri.

[@justice8718]

@@shadegreen5351 So you look for scraps of a lie to escape to? That’s so atheist.

[@fingerboxes]

I had a person ask me with a straight face "How is it possible that uncontacted tribes don't know about Jesus? Haven't they ever asked themselves what it's been 2,000 years since?" She also asked "Why can't we just dissect the brains of fetuses so we can tell their parents if they're going to grow up to be gay or trans or whatever?"

[@PaulBolton-jl2qm]

Heavens Gate, Jonestown, Wacco....all in the last 50 years.

[@Arphemius]

Waco isn't quite the same, those people were murdered; they didn't die for their beliefs, they died because some people wanted to score political points.

[@matthewwukitch3735]

Haha even if you believe they were murdered at Waco then this even more closely follows the bullshit in this book. Those people had days to surrender and they didn't. They died for their second coming pastor and set the fires themselves.

[@Arphemius]

@@matthewwukitch3735 They tried to surrender almost immediately, the feds shot at them. Remember also that they hadn't even been told what exactly they were supposed to have done wrong, because the feds made up those charges. From their perspective, a government agent lets lip to one of them that they were gonna roll up in force to their compound, they prepared for it, the feds did show up and told him to come out, then when he did come out, they immediately fired at him and wounded him. At that point, it probably seemed to them exactly what it was - an execution. For, once again, absolutely nothing. They also obviously did not set the fire themselves, that's just stupid.

[@jfu5222]

Trouble makers making trouble in a time when life was very cheap.

[@IheartDogs55]

I didn't deconvert for decades after my doubts started. It was that very question about dying for a lie that kept me a believer. At 60 years old, I just couldn't believe in God any longer. I told myself the "witnessed" resurrection stories and martyrdoms must have an explanation behind them. And, indeed, some time later, I found out about where the beliefs originated. I can only hope this information can be discovered by others who are trapped by lies from apologists. I'll never get those years back.

[@Ex_christian]

I was forced into the Christian cult as a young teen and stayed in it for 30 years even though I questioned. Finally woke up and decided it was time to quit the cult and just live in reality.

[@Tessilla-ie4pn]

Wow yes, my grandfather on my mother's side went through the atrocity of world war II , And never stop looking for his troup until he could account for everyone. He was their supply Sergeant. He was responsible for everything they needed, He tried to give extra supplies to make sure they got home. He was devastated to find he was one of ten that came back alive out a 100 plus. So he never stop trying to find survivors and work his ass off to get them home. He found six men and brought them home after 5-30 years. I agree with you, you can't just trust the memory of the events and especially the fish storys people tell as propaganda. You have to dig for the the truth. Love the video.❤

[@professorcurious]

I find the question 'who would die for a lie?' to not be the own that they think it is. If a man's entire fortune and his family's reputation and future rested on that lie, he'd probably kill or even die to keep it maintained. If a lie is valuable enough, it's worth could even outweigh your own life.

[@theldun1]

Anyone who dies for magical thinking dies for a lie.

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.

[@extrage3061]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 No.

[@laurajarrell6187]

DarkMatter2525, Excellent breakdown! So many agendas, politics, placing blame for many reasons, all went, I believe, into the gospels, and church traditions. 👍💙💙💙🥰✌

[@blatherskite3009]

I'm guessing that the "choose the manner of your death" idea was lifted from the story of Socrates, executed in 399BC. He was Greek, of course, but was famously given the chance to suggest his own punishment after being found guilty and condemned to death. As Socrates was tried (and executed) for _impiety_ (either an atheist or a worshipper of a false god) there's definitely a certain rhyme to it with the Bible authors granting an apostle a similar fate, albeit relocated to Rome. Obviously, these days we all know that when offered the choice of your manner of death, the correct answer should be "Snu Snu."

[@charlesnunno8377]

Strong argument. "Who would die for a lie?" LOTS OF PEOPLE HAVE IN HISTORY. I've come so close to effectively dying for a lie. A man dies for a lie every time someone has successfully decieved him. I've been decieved many times. I've died for lies. Lots of people die for lies, every day.

[@StudentDad-mc3pu]

Did the apostles die. We have not one single reliable account of an Apostle dying for their faith.

[@gsp3428]

I think that Paulogia said there were at least 3 accounts.

[@StudentDad-mc3pu]

@@gsp3428 We have one extra-Biblical account from Josephus, but it says nothing about offering James the chance to recant. He was just stoned. The Biblical accounts are, well Biblical.

[@FrozEnbyWolf150]

"All of the Apostles were martyred!" "It says in your own book that this one died of natural causes.' "Of course, it means God himself martyred him!"

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.

[@extrage3061]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 No.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

It's a story written decades later by early Christians promoting the new religion. Everybody dies regardless of the reason why, and yes they did die for a lie.

[@jenna2431]

The actual correct statement would be that nobody would die for what they believe to be a lie. If it's believed, it's automatically true. Narrative control must filter out any details that threaten the voluntary suspension of disbelief.

[@pythondrink]

I'm not convinced that nobody would die for what they believe to be a lie. Why not? What if it would accomplish something they believe would outweigh their death?

[@Bojan12]

@@pythondrinkQuestion is who have balls to do that

[@pythondrink]

@@Bojan12 ppl who have framed themselves as a criminal in order to save someone else they acre about for starters

[@thehappyvulcan]

"Who would die for a lie?" Yes, the Vikings would die on the battlefield to get to Valhalla. Many Vikings showed their mettle, and died on the battlefield. So, if we follow the argument that people only die for what is true, then they should convert to the Asa faith.

[@markrothenbuhler6232]

Who would die for a lie? Cigarettes don't cause cancer! Cough cough!

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.

[@extrage3061]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 No.

[@johnrockyryan]

​​@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 go f*ck yourself stop dirtying Yeshuas great name and teachings with your absolute delusions

[@knightofcydonia1192]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 I feel sorry for you.

[@Vienna3080]

“Who would die for a lie?” Billions of people since the advent of war and religion

[@PA-1000]

The difference between that and the apostles is that the apostles were actual eyewitnesses to the ressurection.

[@spacebook8923]

@@PA-1000allegedly

[@PA-1000]

@@spacebook8923 elaborate.

[@PA-1000]

@@spacebook8923 elaborate.

[@PA-1000]

@@spacebook8923 elaborate

[@sjstronghold9238]

In the movie "minority report" after Tom Cruises spares the man he thinks is resonsable for the murder of his child, the guy says "No if you don't kill me my family gets nothing" revealing that the man was ready to die for a lie. And if you want a non-fictional exeample : Joseph Smith. So even for the more philosophical standpoint it fails because people can die for things they do know to be a lie for a multitude of reasons : an obsession with legacy, drinking your own cool-aid, not realising what you got into, wanting to end things, having one last laugh, thinking you can help someon with your life...

[@matthewwukitch3735]

Every time i hear who would die for a lie i think of David Koresh. Those people had a long time to think about what they doing and committed suicide. They died for a lie.

[@johnsanders561]

The ATF wanted to make an example of them, that's why they cornered him in his compound instead of picking him up at the gas station.

[@matthewhelm7069]

They tried to leave the atf executed regardless of what their beliefs were. There were children who were unable to say what they believed and died at Mt caramel

[@RSAgility]

I very much believe that someone lived their entire life living a lie and found out, didn't like it, and had to double down, even to grave...😂

[@undeniablySomeGuy]

I vividly remember the first time I had this argument raised to me. My mom required me to take an apologetics class during the summer. The whole time, I was just thinking about how ridiculous it was to attempt to explain or defend the supernatural through reasoning of the natural. The man leading the course asked me "okay then, how do *YOU* think the tomb was empty?" I responded "Maybe a huge snake snuck in, ate him, and left? Maybe a pair of earthquakes happened, causing the body to fall into a fault line then the fault line was closed? Maybe everyone forgot which tomb it was, and all the documentation is wrong?" He responded with varying levels of incredulity about all of my explanations, dismissing them on likelihood. I had to say "any naturalistic explanation is by definition more likely than a supernatural one." I think that he thinks I'm a demon child now.

[@domanoos]

A good reason why the tomb was empty is because there likely was no tomb. It was common practice for Roman soldiers to dump crucified bodies into mass graves. Jesus was probably dumped into a mass grave.

[@PhantasmicCackla]

“The greatest trick God pulled was convincing the world the Devil existed”

[@johnrockyryan]

The greatest trick Yahweh ever pulled was convincing the World Lucifer was the villain of the story IYKYK

[@domanoos]

Gnostic talk fr

[@hidden546]

If we use “death for a belief” as a piece of evidence, we have to apply that line of reasoning to every case where people died for a belief as evidence for the truth of the claim. The people who mass suicided in The Heavens Gate cult didn’t die for a lie, they died for what they believed in. It was true to them. People don’t die for lies, they die for what they believe to be true. There are many Christian’s who would be fully willing to die for Jesus today, in fact, many churches prep their congregation in this way. They say when the end times start, Christian’s will be persecuted even to the point of death. This is where God will test the faith of each and every one of us. If you die for Jesus you will go to heaven and if you want to save your life you’ll go to hell. This is indoctrination and brainwashing at its finest. I’m speaking from personal experience. At one point in time as a Christian I was convinced by the whole “Islamic antichrist” book and that Christian’s would be beheaded before Jesus appears. I was fully ready to be beheaded for Jesus if that’s what it took. All theists suffer from special pleading. It’s only true for my religion because mine is true and the rest are false.

[@istvansipos9940]

"we wawnt demonstrayt what the gawd is. But here'z a pinkee swear list haw hiz padawans were OFFed." - Christian motto, early 21st century (English butchered for illustrative purposes)

[@JezuesChavez]

The Didache reports about false apostles. Paul reports about false preachers and their ill intent “17 The others preach about Christ for what they get out of it. “ - and what do people get out of it? The same thing other apostles got. Money. Something proves to be profitable, people do it. We don’t have the real reason Paul is in jail. I’m sure it was for crimes.

[@adrian_veidt]

They died not knowing it was all for a lie.

[@Specialeffecks]

The takeaway...people are incredibly gullible.

[@FoursWithin]

And fearful of being cast out of a community for opposing views. Which back in the day was a reasonable fear. Today not so much.

[@cravenlestat7006]

Darkmatter here is an example if we did the same today Obituary of Steve S Stevenson Steve was a great man who lived a happy life until the day he was hit by a bus after getting eaten alive by lions then falling off a twenty story building headfirst onto a cement truck then slipping by accident into active volcano right before becoming trapped in a woodchipper minutes before landing in a vat of sulfuric acid He slipped away peacefully in his sleep on Saturday and will be missed 🤔

[@brielleanyez7113]

😂😂😂😂

[@davidbeazley1958]

The death of John sounds like the very first version of “and everyone in the cafe clapped and shook my hand “… 😅

[@Ex_christian]

My parents, in-laws, brother, and many other family members and acquaintances live for a lie. And it seems they will die for that lie. It’s disgusting! Why live for a lie? Live in reality and for today! Tomorrow may never come and that will be the end.

[@IronBoulder]

You are one of the wisest people I've ever known. It's not really your perspectives necessarily, it's the way you THINk about things and relay the perspectives to us.

[@Dan-uf2vh]

This comes at just the right time to serve as my placeholder sermon with the occasion of the Orthodox Easter resurrection day. Also, I have to play along with this mass delusion for sake of my family. I would not want to face any sort of rebuke, let alone persecution, even thought Atheism is *true* 🤣

[@oculttheexegaming2509]

That's what I thought, as someone from a majorly Orthodox Christian country myself.

[@davidmuriithi1809]

I see a new upload by DarkMatter, I click.

[@RustyWalker]

This deals nicely with the question of historicity. There's also the question whether any of them really knew what they were saying was untrue. People do sometimes "die for a lie," but they also die holding out for what they *believe* to be true, and also are just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and have no agency over their death.

[@Circulism]

thanks for your years of great content. this reminds me of George Costanzas quote "its not a lie, if you believe it"

[@jamesyoung1022]

To die for a lie, you must know that it is a lie. If you think it is the truth, that is an entirely different matter. I can think of thousands who ended up dying for a lie that they thought was the truth.

[@LAkadian]

That was just a bunch of madeup gibberish you pulled outta your backside. Made no sense.

[@jamesyoung1022]

@@LAkadian Not much makes sense to people with an agenda.

[@GuitarDog_atx]

Why would samurai commit Seppuku for a lie?

[@Wastingsometimehere]

If you learn about the history of Japanese lords and crimes they did every day, dying for honor does qualify as a lie.

[@GuitarDog_atx]

@@Wastingsometimehere I'm aware of the history. You are missing the point. It's one's own opinion what "honor" means, but it's not a "lie". Clearly they were convinced. I may not agree with others on what that means. But if they are willing to slice open their own bellies and endure such pain for arbitrary reasons means I wouldn't put much credence on anyone dying for any reason. The apologists talking point on this is moot

[@rasol-007]

Seppuku,Bushido..etc aren't for divine bs. Its about their moral Omg... everyone has own interpretations

[@GuitarDog_atx]

@@rasol-007 Doesn't matter. If a person is willing to slice open their belly for ANYTHING, then I'm not holding superstitious folks dying for something they believe in in high esteem.

[@GuitarDog_atx]

@@rasol-007 plus, they consider honor to be as important and were as fervent about it as any religious belief.

[@Specialeffecks]

If we can believe the apostles didn't die for a lie, their death being by someone else's hand - based on flimsy evidence, then we can be even more certain the Heaven's Gate cult members didn't die for a lie, their death being by their OWN hand - based on good evidence, right?

[@HendarsChannel]

Reminded of School when you talk about stories being told second hand. I was angry at some bullies and I punched out a window, a security one with bars in it. I didn't hit it hard so the thing must've been broken but I held the dude and told him if they came at us again I would punch his face out and I punched the window and it broke. I had this whole speech going on and that was it, the school didn't press charges since they thought the window getting smashed was the bullies fault. I heard other people tell me I tackled the window and it broke a few weeks later. Years later I hear my brother retell the story and he's a bit younger than me, like three years younger. Suddenly it wasn't me who was in the story it was someone else and they kicked out the window with all their force and the dude was a roided up guy etc. It had turned into it's own story that had this massive story to it and had it's own myth to it, I wasn't even in the story anymore or involved in anyway. Makes me wonder how much of history we got right and how much we got wrong because it was retold wrong. I mean we can't even get recent history right so I don't know anymore.

[@regalx1]

Wow this is powerful, I'm already doing a lot of desconstruction research, but I've never heard about the fact that the apostles themselves didn't even die. But what I enjoyed the most was the snarkiness of the responses which made me chuckle almost everytime.

[@Bomtombadi1]

Interesting: these apostles, supposedly executed via crucifixion, in an effort to mock their beliefs, were also granted the manner in which they were crucified. And these requests were granted, why? Out of respect for the beliefs of the people being executed?

[@mr.spider267]

Who would die for a lie? Joseph Smith.

[@vigilance3109]

Well look at that, my co worker gave me that exact book about a month ago when I told him I had lost faith in Christianity (and Judaism by extension). I gave the first few chapters a read and it's just such suface level stuff that any serious Christian heard a hundred times over.

[@anyify1]

"Now that i think about it, if they were making up so much stuff about their deaths, why wouldn't they make up stuff about their lives too". Excellent!

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

God is the epitome of Holiness because He is sinlessly perfect, A sinner (liar, sexually immoral, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, thief etc) cannot be in the presence of God or else he will be utterly consumed therefore repent of your sins and put your faith in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour to go to Heaven.

[@anyify1]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Emm, since you didn't oppose what I said but brought up another mental gymnastics, let's go then. Since God is the creator of all things, and he is perfect, where the heck did the imperfection come from? Heck, where did sin come from?

[@NA-vz9ko]

@@anyify1ignore the spam bot. It’s been copy/pasting this same comment on dozens of posts.

[@anyify1]

@@NA-vz9ko Alright thanks. But dang, it shows how far they are willing to go in order to spread their "Goodnews"

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

@@anyify1 Man was created to be upright with free will, but unfortunately with free will comes the opportunity to sin/ do imperfect things and since God will judge everyone we all need a saviour

[@tribequest9]

People who died for their beliefs: Muslims, Hale Bop Comet people, Branch Davidians…….i mean the list goes on. Did I mention Hindu widows throwing themselves on a pyre?

[@MStrong95]

The song, Playing Hookey by Andre Henry (3 minutes and 31 seconds long for the version on Spotify) really describes the sentiment of modern Christianity.

[@victorf8301]

i love these chat videos just as much your animations

[@PiRobot314]

On another note, at the end you mentioned giving to charity, and that is awesome! I would love to see a video where you evaluate different charities, so I can know which ones are most effective and support them with you!

[@nickydaviesnsdpharms3084]

Since discovering this channel and watching video after video, I can't get enough, cos your style is so unique, I especially like the amusing nature at which you approach or portray various bible subjects and passages, mainly because you don't misrepresent anything and it's literally all there for anyone to read it and check. I would love Christians to watch them though who I know but I find their defense mechanisms prevent them from doing so

[@dyerseve3001]

"Who would die for a lie?" argument died for most Christians on 9/11/2001 Any time it's brought up the answer is the 9/11 plane hijackers.

[@Your_LocalWizard]

Even if these people died knowing that Christianity was a lie, at that point it was a choice between be executed painfully or live as both a traitor to Judaism and Christianity. Hell, there probably were a bunch of people that renounced Christ but the church never recorded them because it was hurtful to their testimony