Down Vs Synthetic Jackets - What's the Best for you?

[@DarwinOnthetrail]

Down or Synthetic? Which one do you prefer on the trail? What New Jacket is currently on your Gear Geek Wish List? 👇Let Us Know Down Below!👇

[@BeauTempsMauvaisTemps]

I ordered an Outdoor Vitals jacket the first day of their campaign. I love their stuff. Can't wait to test it.

[@donnysutrisna1651]

Great review 👍 answer all my questions about MHW. I’m hoping to see your reviews about sierra gear ( bear can, ice axe, microsoikes )

[@xenocide1307]

You probably shouldn't be concerned with packing your synthetic jacket down as small as you can get it into your pack as that contributes to its accelerated demise. You should definitely more loosely pack any synthetic insulated garments to keep them healthy longer. By and large I prefer synthetic insulation for all the reasons you do, and I live in the North East where everything is forever damp. I recently just got the Rab Alpha Direct softshell jacket and am in pure love, its got amazing warmth to weight and I feel no wind thru it. Next on the list is the Arc'Teryx Proton AR.

[@chrisdaugherty9030]

I have the ghost whisper jacket -love it ! also order the New outdoor vitals synthetic, looking forward to it.

[@joethompson79]

Just got an REI 850-fill down jacket on a holiday sale. Kept me very warm on my recent AT trip in MD when temps were in high 10's. But I was too paranoid about trying not to let it get too smoky around the campfire because I dont really want to wash it if I dont have to.

[@generalfox8148]

Im 14 years old and I used to play games al the time and I was like never outside and I was very shy, but I started watching your videos and you inspired me to go out hiking and overnighting outside on the trail and i haven’t played a game in almost a month and I’m much more outside and with friends and I’m not that shy anymore, thank you. You are the best.

[@errorsofmodernism9715]

since you are 14 please watch this video before going hiking: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qV66dmx-d9Z_a8k

[@thinkmackay8954]

Be careful of your safety too. You are growing up, do everything possible to avoid being victimized or doing wrong things that ruin your future!

[@yozhhhh]

I used to be an adventurer, just like you. Then I took an arrow to the knee.

[@mr.furball1981]

raise a cat. It does work too. Be happy person.

[@Tri7on]

@@yozhhhh lmao he might not be old enough to remember that one. Classic tho

[@bensondeluca5951]

An additional pro for synthetic is that certain synthetics are far more breathable than down. My go to is the Patagonia Nano Air Light for its breathability.

[@dgio5052]

I've always worn a "Members Only" jacket.

[@BluefirephoenixJen]

I prefer synthetics. I live in a very wet climate. . My sleeping bag is a high end synthetic as well. We have rain and frequent fog. When it is dry it's often 90% or above humidity. Down works poorly in high humidity.

[@1977swampy]

Downside of synthetic sleeping bag is that it will lose its loft and warm capability over time.

[@1977swampy]

@John Buick you are lucky then

[@martineshamzin7535]

I live in Minnesota, down is a must.

[@vincentmercier8595]

Been selling outdoor clothes for years, he is spot on, excellent and accurate info.

[@adventures_by_sunday6480]

Synthetics win for me. My patagonia micropuff jacket is warm, waterproof and windproof. I can wash it easily and tumble dry it quickly in the dryer and I'm really to go out hiking again.

[@bearbishop8570]

I’ve got one too, it’s really good, but seems to ware out quickly, mush have at least 10 patches on mine

[@sasquatchhimself]

I've watched 3 of your videos now and I'm amazed at how much information you pack into these short videos. Thank you.

[@theobserver9131]

If he didn't repeat everything 3 or 4 times, he could probably get it down to 3 or 4 minutes....

[@rosswarnke2468]

Hey John would you wear one as we both rub the backs of them together

[@randiunroe3158]

Thanks for how well you explained that! I run a gear shop in Northern California and have this conversation with my customers all the time. I usually try to steer my customers towards synthetic with the weather we have up here. Typically if it’s cold enough to need a jacket, it’s gonna be at least overcast

[@Kim_gs1206]

Patagonia micro puff hoody for me, synthetic and weighs 227 gr, 8 oz, in womens medium. It wasn't cheap, 279 euro, 319 $. I also have a synthetic quilt, made by As Tucas, a small company in the Spanish Pyrenees. 200 apex Climashield, 23 degrees Fahrenheit, - 5 celsius. It weighs 665 gr, 1.4 pounds, in a regular. It's great! Even my little doggy has one in his size, they made it especially for him😊

[@DarwinOnthetrail]

That's a good one! My buddy Craynip swears by it. Just wish Patagonia stuff would fit me... 😕 Hike On, Darwin

[@Jessetheoutdoorman]

How much did you pay for the As Tucas? seems they only sell from their website

[@Kim_gs1206]

@@Jessetheoutdoorman I paid 270 euros for mine and 80 euros for the doggy one they made. They only sell from their site, but their service is great. They make the quilt within a few days and send it to you. You can ask for costum stuff too. From ordering to receiving was 8 to 9 days.

[@jamespants6591]

Weeponybjorn thanks for the tip with the quilt. I must check that out. Do you have a good tip for a tent to use in Europe?

[@Kim_gs1206]

@@jamespants6591 Europe is a bit of a broad term😉 It depends on where you want to use it and which season. The south of spain is pretty different from where I'm from and it's also europe😉 I'm from the Netherlands and its pretty damp, wet and windy here and cold in fall, winter, spring. I tried the zpacks here and found it to be cold, did not like it. I only use tents with solid mesh in countries with weather similar to mine or in scandinavia. I use a Nordisk telemark 1 or a Tarptent notch 1. These are good online stores btw. backpackinglight.dk www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/equipment-c3/rucksacks-c19/backpacking-rucksacks-c361#sort32

[@fletcherbullock7291]

I might be a little alone here but I prefer a nice wool jacket. It’s water wicking for the most part and even if it does get wet eventually it’s easy to dry and while you’re still outside the water helps retain heat thus keeping you warm

[@OldNavajoTricks]

Had an old army greb years ago, it stood up on its own but nothing got through, wind, water, nothing lol I think it was german issue moleskin.

[@Dreyno]

@@OldNavajoTricks Those old coats were amazing. Heavy, very hardwiring, button in liner, great hood. Had one for years and it’s still useable apart from the zip needing to be replaced. The newer flecktarn ones are decent as well with the quilted liner but nowhere near as heavy duty.

[@OldNavajoTricks]

@@Dreyno Not sure on the jackets, a greb is a blanket/cloth that gets used for everything lol, it's a windbreak, it's a bedroll, it's a water-carrying thing, Grebs just a nickname we called them because they were invariably grebby, i.e. 'dirty' lol. But definitely a lifesaving bit of kit to strap on the bike :-D

[@DigitalRoofingInnovations]

Totally agree, but they are horrible for thru-hiking because of how heavy they are. I love my US Navy issue brown sweater, but I only wear it at home.

[@ButeoAlbonotatus]

This is the best explanation of down vs synthetic jackets I've come across on the internet, and I've viewed quite a few: Clearly defines the terms and differences (what they are and why they matter) in a very succinct manner (enough info for a novice to comprehend - no jargon and minimal technical detail). Outstanding review! I'm now seriously looking into synthetic jackets for backpacking, though I'm staying with my FF down sleeping bag.

[@beardjuice9959]

I use the Patagonia Micro Puff Hoodie Synthetic with their PlumaFill. The actual jacket is coated in a DWR finish and the synthetic material inside is also water resistant. It's definitely not a rain jacket, but it does a good job in light rain/snowy conditions. A size large 10D weighs in around 9oz so not quite as light as the two you mentioned, but still very light. Packs into its own pocket. If I'm expecting rain or heavier moisture, I have a fairly compact rain jacket that will fit over the top if needed.

[@nathankeel4308]

Can't beat a 900 fill power down jacket with a rain/wind proof Gore-tex coating layer on the inside & outside. Benefits of down, without the weakness of rain

[@nathankeel4308]

Check out Arc'teryx or Weatherwool. Both companies/websites my friends

[@yorkdale2370]

3M Thinsulate beats all of the mentioned above. Unfortunately it's poorly marketed and expensive. There are many types of Thinsulate including down substitute.

[@sfpastramiking]

Nathan Keel this is kinda how I roll now. I got a trevail north face 800 and a Gore-Tex summit series NF. I rock an adidas veritlite in the city and I have a huge vintage mountain Hardwear for ski like weather

[@bogdanchis2026]

Bad idea. You can t use a down jacket like you use your hardshell. In my opinion Gore-tex coating on down jackets is uselles. Down jackets are great to use under your hardshell in extreme cold situations or when you want to take a break from hiking. Why using them like a soft/hardshell, I really don t understand that.

[@TheVlatko666]

@@bogdanchis2026 I didn't quite understand you, are you saying wearing a down jacket under a Gore-tex hardshell jacket is useless? Or l understood you wrong? I have TNF 700 down and l wear it under my Gore-tex hardshell which is pretty thin but it's completely waterproof and windproof. So l though to keep me warm, a down jacket is great, and then to protect it from getting wet l wear my my Gore-tex hardshell over it as they are compatible with each other.

[@ArtLoverDaiana]

Best comparison review I ever watched! There are jackets with a combination of down + synthetics so u get the little extra warmth and the little extra space in your backpack + waterproof + machine washable + more cheap + doesn't smell so bad after a long wear (compared to down).

[@crackerjack6075]

Down jacket has a wonderfully wide comfort range. If comparing SYNTHETIC against DOWN when both garments are of similar construction, you will probably be just as warm in both jackets if similar rating. But as you get warmer from hiking, working or weather, you will probably get sweaty and need to pop off that synthetic, while the down still breathes and you still feel dry, comfortable. Although true that down loses insulation loft if it gets wet, the strategy is layering. If it starts to rain, you continue to wear it, protect it under a rainproof poncho. Poncho fits nice over your backpack anyway.

[@BackcountryExposure]

Nice breakdown. My Arc’teryx Atom LT has been my favorite jacket the past three years. The insulation has lost a significant amount of loft but it also has at least 500+ days of use and it’s still in amazing shape, just not as warm as it used to be.

[@cybrarian9]

Hi Darwin, I can offer 2-cents from a fellow who has worked and continues to work outdoors a lot, especially in cold weather, with horses and other livestock. First let me say that I buy nearly every sort of outdoor item I own from REI and have always valued their products and service. Secondly, as a person who has worked outdoors part time in one way or another on small vegetable and animal farms dealing with livestock and harvesting fruits and vegetables and dealing with maintaining the land and equipment in all sorts of weather from 0 to 100 degrees Fahrenheit, that I know what it's like to be out in sweltering heat and below freezing weather for many hours at a time. It's for this reason that I stopped using fleece jackets under my hardshell jackets and above my long underwear because the fleece still let the wind and cold through on cold days. Fleece is alright for me till about 40 degrees, maybe even 32 degrees Fahrenheit, but below this in high winds and gusts the fleece doesn't keep me warm. I switched last year (finally) to Patagonia's synthetic NanoPuff jacket and NanoPuff vest and have been warm ever since. At the moment, I like synthetic for a lot of reason that you mentioned, plus it's easier for me to care for than down clothing. Sometimes I wear both the vest and the jacket simply because they are extremely lightweight, thin, it's another layer to decide to take on or of based on the weather, and I just like the feeling of wearing both of them to be that much "extra warm." So, while I'm not the avid outdoor hiker and trail walker and runner and cyclist like you and many others who follow you are, I am a guy who spends a lot of time outdoors often times with cranky horses who are just as cold as I am in the snow and ice and frozen ground and chilling mud and high winds. Being able to wear lightweight, warm, and flexible clothing is very important to me.

[@professorsogol5824]

Have you tried a wind-block fleece? I have a polar tec (material, not brand) wind block vest that does a great job when compared to a regular fleece. I believe the original wind block technology was developed by Vortex, but there seem to be several variations on the market now. And people who work out of doors (as opposed to recreate) need a robust garment that resists wear and tear. In Alaska, people running trap lines want a tough outer layer to their down jacket that will not tear on branches or sharp objects. Of course the heaver fabric in the outer layer makes the whole garment heavier too.

[@cybrarian9]

@@professorsogol5824, thanks for the suggestions. The fleeces were both from REI and they were "Polartec." They were also at the very least 5 to 3 years old a piece, one was much older than the other. Sadly, I lost my favorite (newer) fleece, but it prompted me to buy the Patagonia NanoPuff jacket and vest to try something different. I'm a horseperson who will ride in all kinds of weather from around 20 degrees Fahrenheit to about 90 degrees Fahrenheit. I also volunteer every Sunday with a therapeutic riding program in an outdoor, but covered arena. The barn rides below 20 degrees Fahrenheit. Most barns won't ride lower than 20 as it's just too cold for the riders (most of whom are kids under 12-years-old and the horses, but some do. Also, when I have volunteered at a horse rescue facility, the barn there is on a bald hill letting wind gust through their like a freight train and nothing to block it. As much as I usually don't get too cold in the winter with the right clothes and layers, I found these fleeces to just not keep me warm enough even with many layers under and above them. So far, I've found these Patagonia products to be much warmer, much lighter, and more flexible for me as a horseback rider and a side-walker with the volunteering. If I ever need to change out, I'll consider your fleece suggestion. P.S. I got 2 good pairs of Woolrich wool long underwear and these also help to keep me warm.

[@professorsogol5824]

@@cybrarian9 The only item I could find on the REI website with wind block tech is here www.rei.com/product/133629/arcteryx-a2b-comp-jacket-mens Seems like they had more in the past. If you want to test it out without spending so much, there are also some gloves for about $50 - 60. That's how I first tried it out: bought a inexpensive pair and put wind block on one hand and a regular glove I already had on the other and went for a bike ride on a cold day. The bike of course generates an artificial wind and the two hands get similar exposure.

[@cybrarian9]

Halffastcyclist much obliged for the help. I don’t need to tell you that technical outdoor clothing ain’t cheap, so for now, like all my other outdoor gear, I’ll use what I have till it falls apart and then I’ll buy something new. Gear changes all the time, so who knows what’ll be available in a few years. Many thanks for your help and happy new year! 😀🎉🎇

[@justaguy2567]

Wholesome conversation

[@thruhiker9465]

I like fleece with a separate nylon shell. Technically that's synthetic, but it's almost a category itself. A poncho covers me and my pack in the rain.

[@kat3rinaaa72]

I just ordered an EE Torrid with my Christmas money! Can't wait for it to come in.

[@DarwinOnthetrail]

NICE CHOICE! Hike On, Darwin

[@Reese842]

I hope you love yours, I love mine.

[@Baggiolyful]

I have a Patagonia nano puff jacket with synthetic insulation. Keeps you nice and warm outdoors all day in most conditions. Very packable and easy to move around in very comfortable. Best jacket I ever bought !

[@ChrisfromFL]

Hey Darwin, I live in Florida and now have both a down and a synthetic jacket. Since I don't have many instances to wear either, I learned an important lesson last year about down jackets. Before sunset and before the temperature started to drop I took my down jacket from my pack and draped it over my camp chair near the fire pit. Because of the humidity we have even on cold nights, my jacket became damp due to the falling temperatures and the heat from the fire. I was lucky that someone with more experience than I with down and falling temperatures who told me I had better put my jacket on or it would be totally useless in short order. Had it not been for that advise, I would have been in a heap of trouble later when the temperature bottomed out at 19°F. I purchased a synthetic as soon as I got home!

[@franciscorivera7899]

And two years later, i find this gem of a video. Well explained. Thanks for the info. 🙌🏼

[@richarddaugherty8583]

I think the secret is layering correctly. Probably won't hike in a down jacket unless it's subzero and maybe not even then. I love my SmartWool base layer, it breaths, keeps me warm better than poly, and often I can hike in cold temps with just that top and a shell to block the wind. No wind, no shell needed. I'm kind of lusting after the Lester River Boreal Shirt as a luxury item around camp in the winter. Yes, it's wool, so bulky and heavy. On the other hand watching Shug's channel among others, it's the best campwear available. Won't get holes from campfire sparks and is heirloom quality. Bottom line, layers, and match them and the material to the environment of the trip. Hike on! Happy New Year to all!

[@Stampistuta]

I’m not sure it available in the US but here in the UK I use a Rab Ultralight Alpine Down Jacket, it’s windproof which means it’s real warm as long as it stays dry. Great vid Darwin.

[@DarwinOnthetrail]

I've been pretty interested in their jackets in the past. I know a lot of hikers that really dig em'... I'll add it to the list! Thanks! Hike On, Darwin

[@GETtwoIT]

@@DarwinOnthetrail You should definitely get hold of one. The Rab Microlight Alpine down jacket is a great piece of kit, its windproof, pretty durable and importantly keeps you toasty ! The ghost whisperer jacket types may be lighter, but its durability concerns me.

[@HikeLighter]

Great video overview of the differences Darwin. I have worn out two Montbell Thermawrap (synth) jackets over the years, and I got an early prototype of the EE Torrid, which is getting close to being worn out. While they do tend to have a significantly lower life expectancy than a good quality animal down jacket, living here in the wet Redwoods of Northern California, dealing with lots of rain and fog, for me it just made sense to make the switch to synthetic insulation a number of years ago. I did so not only with my jacket, but my thermal pants and all of my quilts and even my thermal booties. Pretty much 100% synthetic these days. But, that said, if I lived down in the South West where it was always dry, I would probably go back to high loft animal down, just for the longer life cycle of the gear, even though it would be an 'ouch' to the pocket book. Again, great video.

[@DarwinOnthetrail]

Thanks John! Glad you dug the video. I get so many questions about which type of insulation to go with, I figured its was time to finally break it "Down" (get it?)... Synthetic Quilts are the only thing that I haven't wanted to make the switch to yet. They are definitely getting lighter tho! It's just a matter of time. Hike On, Darwin

[@richarddaugherty8583]

@@DarwinOnthetrail Oooh! Groaner! :)

[@izzythomas848]

@@DarwinOnthetrail Is the life cycle of synthetic that much different than down. I just bought a Fjallenraven jacket with synthetic, which I love. I'm hoping it will last for many years. That said, does vigorous activities like hiking make the synthetic wear down faster.

[@MobileAura]

Or just wear a rain shell/pants? 😆 Down is superior, synthetic is wack. Wool + down + shell = yes.

[@sinfonianbarelytone9191]

I'm a Ghost Whisperer guy, mainly because the synthetic jackets you talk about weren't around when I got it. I live in the Pacific Northwet so I almost never hike in it. The one time I did I got way too hot. It is a great camp jacket and warm layer under my rain gear. Love my Ghost Whisperer!

[@shanelyon414]

Synthetic is my favourite for two main reasons reliable warmth in any condition and easy to maintain. My go to and favourite jacket is still my 12 year old LL Bean, All Conditions, Primaloft jacket, warm, perfectly sized, easy to layer or no layer and cleans up in no time. The deal breaker for me was the fact that I sweat and all my synthetic material (mostly Primaloft) clothing has kept me warm even when damp or wet. Not to mention that even my body heat can help dry it out once the intensity goes down. The other deal breaker is how easy it cleans up, down is never easy to clean and a total pain to dry. All my synthetic jackets go from washer to dryer and come out like new, ready to go again, this is really practical in winter. One down side that I have personally found is that not all synthetic insulation’s are created equal, I have bought several only to find their insulation value to be terrible. All my down jackets have been consistent performers with regards to insulation, which I use for low intensity outdoor activity. Thanks for the great breakdown video Darwin, I thought it was very thorough and enjoyed it.

[@Gambeli02]

Synthetic! Relatively lite weight, packs into its pocket, and keeps me warm. The down jacket that I inherited is the old fashion thick baffle, gotta be 40+ years old, and still going strong for ordinary use. I'm sure its a 600 file, it weighs the down equivalent of a ton and it doesn't pack well -- so I don't take it backpacking.

[@hannaaustin37]

So knowledgeable and extremely well spoken. Love your channel. Thanks for being so informative! I’ll be hiking the AT starting March 2019 👍🏼

[@mattwithtwots6815]

Thumbs up for finally learning what the "700" and "900" in front of the down means! Great Job, Darwin!

[@user-ot1rc9xw4w]

Synthetic - forever! I'm from Russia. I like to use Down Jackets, when I'm in town (at home). But when I'm go hiking, Itake primaloft jacket (350 g.). And it's part of my sleeping system.

[@JoeZUGOOLA]

Dont forget to check out British and European brands! Super high quality

[@carlpeckett1393]

I'm mostly wearing Alpkit gear these days. Ethical company that does some great work. Their gear is great given they aren't quite as expensive as the more well know brands.

[@tlairila]

Cheers! I'm using merino wool. I know its rather heavy compared to these but I like the fact that It'll keep me warm even when wet :D

[@begforchange]

Uniqlo Ultralight Down Jacket is the UL deal not to miss. Got mine on sale for $30, but retail is only $70. 8oz (no hood). Plenty warm for 10,000ft in the summer.

[@autumnsimms3402]

Hey, this is great! I got a REI 650 Down jacket for a Christmas gift this year. I NEEDED this video!

[@autumnsimms3402]

700 is heavier than 900. Hiker math.

[@Larstig81]

I have a down jacket, it is only used on a campingsite in Iceland with dry but cold and windy weather. When I bought it 3 years ago I didn't know the pros and cons of a down jacket. Because it should only used when it is really cold and not raining I wear it not often any more.

[@Skymouth]

I have the REI CO-OP down jacket and really love it! It's good quality and inexpensive for a down jacket. I also tend to layer it with a Landsend fleece

[@JamesPliny]

I think everyone's experience differs. For example, I have always been able to keep my down jacket dry. It is secure in my pack or... under a shell layer if I am wearing it in the rain. Wearing it in the rain is rarely, simply because raining that means it is above freezing temps. I was given a beautiful new brand-name synthetic to try and I have only two complaints. It isn't quite as warm, and it weighs a little more. It sure is hard for me to justify taking something heavier and not as warm. It does have a Pertex fabric on the outside, but that doesn't quite eliminate the need for my shell layer which is almost carried here in the Pacific Northwest. I currently have four down jackets, one for every season. My wife says I'm a gear junky, but it isn't so.

[@AsianTankPilot]

You have some of the best most informative and relatable videos out there. You’re also a talented speaker, which makes you videos really easy to watch.

[@poordirtyhappy9704]

For the last couple years I've combined a fleece hoodie, ultralight wind jacket, and a down vest with excellent results. A little extra weight for a lot of versatility. I'd switch the down vest for synthetic in the future.

[@Mtnsunshine]

Nice! Well done. Loved your editing. The jacket switches were flawless! Happy 2019 !

[@tonydean2541]

Been trying to decide for weeks now which to go for and havent found anything with enough info to sway me one way or the other, until now, this video covers everything i wanted to know, is easy to understand, very informative covering all angles with no bull. so glad i stumbled across it. Liked and subscribed. And its definately synthetic for me by the way for sure. Thank you so much

[@jaybutler6344]

your reviews are so nice. I say this because they are genuine and honest. keep up the good work!

[@0ptimal]

He sounds like he's hiding a seriously southern voice in there

[@slappy8941]

Nope, not Southern at all.

[@bP-yr3po]

Indiana

[@professorsogol5824]

Darwin didn't actually say it, but it is thickness that creates warmth. To compare the warmth of two garments, measure the their thickness by laying them on a flat surface and laying a square sheet of cardboard on top (about 15 cm on a side is a good size) and then use your tape measure to see how thick the item is. Two items with the same thickness will provide about the same amount of warmth. Then compare the weight and cost. Weight and cost (and fill) will not tell you whether or not the product will keep you warmer.

[@randysmith6493]

Halffastcyclist That is only partly relative. You can have a cheep synthetic fiber that is airy and spongy so looks like it lifts out, but that free movement of air is not warmth. Restricting the movement of air is where you get your warmth. Down feathers are great for that. I have a synthetic sleeping bag and when it gets wet you can wring it out till you are blue in the face and it will not provide warmth, it’s even not great at warmth when it is dry. The moral don’t get wet, but if you do the synthetic will likely dry sooner though in the wild, but you may have gone hypothermic by then.

[@vikingbrowski3718]

you are correct but there is more to it than thickness. like randy described above you must trap the air. For example take 5 individual layers that are the same thickness together as 2 layers of the same material. even though they are the same thickness the one with 3 extra layers will provide more warmth it traps the air better.

[@backcountryemily]

Just to add to this and the other 2 comments, you can really only do this within the same material. AKA you need to compare the thickness of 2 down jackets to figure out which is warmer, and two synthetic jackets. You can't use this method to compare a down to synthetic jacket. I find the numbers game to be more helpful with synthetic jackets as they will tell you the weight of material in the jacket: like 60g Primaloft, 30g Coreloft, etc. But as the others said, trapping in air is what really gives the jackets warmth. This is also why you shouldn't over- or under-size your insulated jackets (and something I constantly have to educate customers about at work).

[@donaldendsley6199]

@@vikingbrowski3718 There is also much more to it than trapping air. Heat moves via radiation, conduction and convection. Typical clothing insulation works via reducing convection and conduction (mostly). When it is compressed it increases its conduction and reduces its convection, when you loft it the reverse happens. When you layer clothes you are not just trapping air, you are also providing radiant barriers (though not highly effective ones). You are also reducing surface contact, increasing mass, and increasing path resistance as well, all of which works to decrease effective conduction.

[@vikingbrowski3718]

@@donaldendsley6199 I believe you are correct. I actually do not know the science behind it. I only know from my own personal experience, and something I read once. multiple layers has always worked for me. Somewhere in my brain I connected that heat will try to escape the body and it will be more difficult for it to escape with more barriers. Wind breakers help bounce the wind off you i think which helps too. when i wear multiple layers I make sure to have my outer layers larger sizes to have as much air between layers as possible.

[@ThomasShue]

So... with some of the Puffy systems, the coated down/waterproof down dries out faster if you fall in the water. You keep the puffy layer in a dry bag and if you fall in the water, you put on a puffy layer, build your tent, then get into your sleep system and all of the water will weep out through the the layers including the sleep system and your body heat (while you eat) will dry you out in an hour or 2 in attic weather.

[@thetommantom]

Very detailed and precise. I work outside in denim. Hasn't been cold or dry enough for down yet. I like wool shirts, base layer, sweater combos with rain jackets.

[@GaseousApe]

Great video, the AT turned me onto synthetic jackets. Then it ended up saving my ass in a rain storm in Tennessee.

[@vito9277]

I really liked the editing in this video:)

[@DarwinOnthetrail]

Thanks Vito! Hike On, Darwin

[@daninsf648]

@@DarwinOnthetrail I love the content - thank you. Please tone down the constant hand movement though - I know why you are doing it but it's way too much to watch. ...Ask your (brutally honest) friends and see what they say. Again, thanks for putting these videos together - content is outstanding.

[@FedericoLancerin]

@@daninsf648 As an Italian, I vehemently disagree with you on "too much"! XD

[@davemengle4961]

Good channel and good explanation of the basics in the down vs synthetic debate. One callout I’d have is that there is a “weight component” that should be mentioned when explaining fill power though. In all cases one ounce of down is used. It’s placed in the test cylinder and allowed to loft up for a fixed amount of time under carefully controlled temperature and humidity conditions. But in the end, as you noted, equal warmth can be achieved using higher or lower fill power down. It just takes more (or less) of one than the other with a corresponding reduction or gain in the weight of the finished product. But speaking of weight, often the choice of shell materials, zippers and construction techniques have more of an impact on the weight of a finished product than the fill power of the down (or synthetic) used. Finally baffles come in many variations, from the simple stitch-through type used in most down “sweaters” to the internally welded baffles found in most high altitude jackets and mountaineering suits. The stitch-through can definitely create some cold spots but is a practical and cost effective construction technique vs. stitched or welded box baffles (as seen in the graphic you used) which eliminate the cold spots but at a significant increase in cost and with some additional weight. Keep up the good work Darwin... nice channel with good info!

[@SteveShelley67]

Darwin you do an excellent job in every video with explanations.

[@iberiksoderblom]

Good video Darwin ! Take it from a pro: Down is a fashion statement. If (when) it gets tuff out there, temperatures shifting just around freezing, your equipment getting wet, your jacket getting soaked, maybe you had to cross water in the night and clothes are wet…, then you want synthetic fibers !!! Even our sleeping bags are designet to be able to provide insulation, if wet. Of course if you stumple in a wintercold river and then really quick can get to somewhere hot and dry, then just keep using down-filling. I dont find compressability to be an issue. How many jackets do you need in your pack ? And weight ? Do more push-ups 😁 I’ve carried 55kg (120 pounds) and equipment on top of that (I was 175 cm at the beginning 😄) for a continous 70 km. That was pretty awful ! Now I regard anything below 30 kg as a good day. When I hike with my youngest kid, I slam 20 - 25 kg on my back for 3-4 days, because its also about comfort. He is 11 and I’m 56 and still active. Warmth? I’ve winter experience from Greenland, Norway, Sweden, Croatia, Bosnia, Afghanistan and it was ok (well…, I coped with it…) in different winter scenarios. Happy new year to all.

[@KrazyKrzysztof]

depends. for multiday winter hikes down sleeping bags are a must. a -20 synthetic will take up my whole bag while my -20 down takes up 20 liters stuff sack.

[@wisenber]

@@KrazyKrzysztof "for multiday winter hikes down sleeping bags are a must." Actually, the opposite tends to be true. Down will continue to get wet from condensation in your shelter night after night. A 5 lb down bag rated to minus 20 F will weigh 9 lbs and only keep you warm to plus 5 F. The synthetic bag will gain weight too, but it will retain more insulation performance than damp down.

[@KrazyKrzysztof]

@@wisenber yea we know this. Unfortuantely u won't fit a minus 20 synthetic bag in your backpack and I don't think this is necessarily true since I have read about people using down on everest and Denali

[@wisenber]

@@KrazyKrzysztof "Unfortuantely u won't fit a minus 20 synthetic bag in your backpack " Depends on your pack. Most expeditions, you'll be pulling a pulk sled to base camp. "and I don't think this is necessarily true since I have read about people using down on everest and Denali" For Everest and Denali, most will bring more than one bag: a base camp bag and a summit bag. For Denali, plan on a wet bag. You'll be cooking, melting snow and drying gear in your tent which drives the humidity off the charts. The constant freeze and thaw makes it unavoidable. Most commercial Arctic expeditions require a synthetic bag for those reasons. Down is great...until it isn't.

[@KrazyKrzysztof]

@@wisenber yea sorry man u won't sell me on the idea that professionals are using synthetic sleeping bags on multiday expeditions . No way everyone is carrying 7 lb sleeping bags that take up 40 liters of space on these peaks . But you can believe it if you want

[@WilliamHunterII]

I tend to go with natural fibers and down. I love my down jacket. It has a pound of down and a coyote pelt around the hood. Of course, the jacket material holding it all together is synthetic. That said, it's a bit warm for hiking except for in the coldest weather. But, in the cold weather I can lie down in the snow and take a nap when wearing it.

[@patrickshourds2305]

Great video! I Love my Enlightened Equipment Torrid Apex jacket! I used it on my 2918 PCT through hike! Only pet peeve I have with the Jacket is the quality of the zipper! Mine gave up toward the end of my hike!

[@eddiericks6554]

Jackets from ten years ago seem to be made better then today. I prefer down jackets over all Eddie Bauer makes great jackets cheaper then so many jackets today

[@tvm73827]

Very informative. Thank you. Unlike down synthetic keeps improving with advances in material science and technology. So I think the gap will only get bigger going forward.

[@shawnal3027]

I use both down and synthetic, but I find that my "go to" jacket is a synthetic Patagonia Nano Puff. It is thin but warm and as a heavy sweater,I appreciate that is stays warm when wet. Since I live in the PNW, synthetic is usually ideal in a wet climate as well. I might have to check out the EE jacket since the zipper on my Patagonia broke :(

[@frank-to7lu]

As a New Englander, usefulness in rainy conditions is a reason I will switch to synthetic. Excellent blog. Thanks.

[@zentallian7444]

I have a Calvin Klein down jacket and I LOVE IT I've worn it in 0 degrees before and still been warm when I only have a. T shirt underNeath, it easily replaces a coat for me

[@HNM69]

I use a Patagonia Micro Puff synthetic jacket. I really like it.

[@harrymills2770]

When I'm on the move, I just use a base layer and shell that I can open and close to keep cool. When I STOP moving, I want more of a puffer than the jackets you wear on your hikes, because I run cold, when I stop. So little or no down, when I'm hiking or working. People tend to dress too warm during activities and run hot and wet, rather than cool and dry.

[@toddsymborski9698]

You'll like the Outdoor Vitals synthetic jacket, it does compress down into it's own pocket and is 800 power fill.

[@whirving]

Down for dry cold with modest movement (no running or hard hiking) synthetic for everything else. I use a North Face Thermoball jacket for my warm up layer when skiing or fat biking. It's perfect for when I have a long downhill or when I travel through an exposed windy area. I can put it on over my regular gear and I'm fine and so is the jacket. Of course I'll need to replace it soon and my cold weather parka is down and is over 40 years old (inherited from Canadian uncle) and is still perfect.

[@rikuk3]

Cold damp climate = synthetic, cold dry climate = down.

[@wittsend541]

loughrey101 Not really, depends on conditions. I’m based in northern England and spend most of my time mountaineering in England, Scotland and Wales. When I get chance, I hit Norway, Italy, Spain and further afield. I storm chase. Having just come back from a 3 day British storm trip, ascending the mountain I wore: Merino base, fleece mid, TNF Thermoball second mid (temps were -15C), £500 TNF Goretex 3 hardshell. By the time we hit our first camp, 3 hours after setting off (night hike in a blizzard with 80MPH winds), I was soaked to my base. The Thermoball was saturated because, in sustained hard, wet conditions, water *will* get in. It will push past your face and into your hood, up sleeves, etc and this will percolate through most of the jacket eventually. I didn’t notice I was wet until I removed my hardshell as the Thermoball is synthetic and had retained its heat. In Britain in winter, I always pack a down jacket for camp / tent use or emergency overlayering; a cheap 700 fill, hydrophobic down. This is useless on hard ascents as it will wet out from sweat. It is also useless in hard conditions as per above. I wore this in the tent at night so that I could just cover my bottom half in my sleeping bag and stay warm / able to move around. It can also be worn inside the seeping bag which boosts the temp rating dramatically. In Britain, in the hard conditions we were having, there is virtually no hope of drying kit unless you get creative with hand warmers or body heat, so the freezing cold, soggy synthetic gets put on each day which isn’t pleasant at first, but within 5 minutes it is doing its job. The down jacket gets packed in a dry bag and goes back in the backpack. Down would have almost completely failed in these conditions within 3 hours, losing probably 90% of its insulation for standard down, maybe 40% for hydrophobic. Darwen, I don’t know how much you have tested hydrophobic down, but I wore mine on a Day 2 descent under my hardshell as a test. Horrendous conditions, it started to wet out after a few hours due to ingress. By the time we made camp that night it was pretty soaked. In temps of -17C, I could definitely feel the difference as it lost loft and the equivalent 500 fill Thermoball would have been warmer. I would say the down lost 50% of its loft. However, that night in the tent I wore it next to a dry base and it did dry and restore to about 80% loft. There is no way a synthetic, or non hydrophobic down jacket could have been dried with body heat, I don’t think. Might be worth doing a real world test of synthetic vs down vs hydrophobic down in serious conditions :)

[@timejinx]

@@wittsend541 I have worked in some very damp conditions and would choose a good down over synthetic anytime just make sure you have a good breathable shell

[@hanno8705]

@@wittsend541 You should post that comment as a new comment under the video, if you not already have, it's a very good one! Thank you for that!

[@wittsend541]

jhjh It’s not just damp conditions I am talking about, it’s seriously wet conditions when you are working hard climbing a mountain with a heavy pack stuck to your back, and you’re sweating hard. I have tried and tested many different materials, methods and techniques ranging from Paramo’s Analogy system through Goretex, eVent, and others and nothing can protect a mid layer from heavy sweat. It can’t just vaporise, it must be wicked away through each layer until it can vent through your hardshell. So no matter how breathable your hardshell, your mid layer will wet-out from the inside.

[@timejinx]

@@wittsend541 I am also an avid climb to include ice climbing and would again chose layering with a down over synthetic. Good down systems will always have ventilation system in place. I do agree that unless you have a way to vent, body sweat can become a problem but proper down with vent zips etc have always alleviated this for me.

[@spikeeus]

I’m currently using a 30 dollar jacket off of amazon and it’s holding up surprisingly well

[@MrWillyp00]

I have military surplus synthetic fill and polarguard 200 polyester fleece. Also have a bunch of merino wool socks, buffs, and one big alanak. Since i just live in the mountains rather than through hike, this gets the job done very well. Hiker's needs would obviously be different.

[@arcana1973]

Unacceptable. You must have one of the "must have" outdoor brand and wear the logo proudly and act smug to others.

[@michaelb1761]

Dang, mine cost $45. I guess I got ripped off. ;-)

[@spikeeus]

Aaron mine is a puffy and it came with a zip off hood and it is black.

[@mayspondmogul]

I got a sweet polyfil jacket from walmart for 25 it is warm I wear it ocassionally and when I ride my electric scooter dont want to fall in my patagonia.

[@bigriver3278]

Just as in sleeping bags, I prefer to have both and use whichever one fits the occasion. Thru-hiking I usually always opt for synthetic for quick drying & wet use. Sometimes an old down jacket/bag with low loft inside a synthetic works well for very cold conditions....so sometimes both at once.

[@mikepreston4512]

Excellent summary of the facts presented in an impartial way. Great job.

[@brocklastname6682]

Fleece currently. If I upgrade, I'll prob buy a down jacket. Getting it wet is not a big concern here in the southwest.

[@DarwinOnthetrail]

You can Definitely get away with Fleece & Down in the SouthWest... Fine choice sir! Hike On, Darwin

[@brocklastname6682]

Yes, the precipitation in AZ is notoriously... predictable.

[@aidenlin9878]

Darwin: this jacket ran me around 325 dollars, pretty expensive. Canada Goose: hold my feathers.

[@amoulet69]

Goose Down FTW. Arc'teryx Cerium LT (850cuins), Rab Alpine Infinity (800cuins GTX) and Campagnolo Down Hooded (650cuins) are my 3 packable jackets in my wardrobe and don't think about a synthetic coat... never. Thank you.

[@steveearnshaw2216]

I am still wearing my Sierra Designs Whitney parka purchased new in 1971. Not bad for almost 50 years old.

[@nickspence5977]

I take a down puffy when I’m backpacking and only use it when I’m stationary. I’ve found synthetic insulating layers to be too warm to hike in and am fine with just a light fleece and a wind/rain shell over my base layer for active insulation.

[@pakfrd7887]

That's how I roll too.

[@woodlymarcello2706]

If manufacturers would add a Gore-Tex shell to a down jacket= perfect jacket. Same thing for winter gloves.

[@AlexChristian]

Mountain Hardware makes one!

[@deannilvalli6579]

This is a really good overview, with lots of information and a fair comparison. From my experience, down has no competitors in terms of wamth and lightness. No synthetic jacket is anywhere near as warm for the weight, and as stated in the video, it also compresses to a much smaller volume. But, again as he states here, sythetic has one big advantage- in damp conditions, it stays useful, while down becomes more or less useless. So I take a synthetic in damp conditions, and down when it is dry (such as in winter when it is below freezing).

[@jonstrongman3292]

I love my Arcteryx Atom LT. it was expensive but it's such a versatile jacket for hiking and around town.

[@fademasterfade227]

Be careful with synthetic products not to crush them in the bottom of your backpack; doing so will break down the insulation much faster. When packing it always leave it on top of your other gear and if possible don't compress it as small as it'll go. This should extent the lifespan of your synthetic insulation a fair bit.

[@mikefranks8469]

Depends on the synthetic material. The apex material is a continuous materials that doesn’t matter if you compress it... other synthetic materials that are not continuous in the material doesn’t need to compressed...

[@1hz901]

For this reason synthetic is great to wear - and down as additional item in the backpack to add when needed. Washing also reduces the loft of synthetic.

[@johnganshow5536]

Synthetic everything in the pacific northwest and southeast alaska...

[@DarwinOnthetrail]

I still can't bring myself to switching to a Synthetic Quilt... Eventually someone will get them "Light Enough". Then I'll be ready! 😉 Hike On, Darwin

[@MrWillyp00]

Cold+wet=Synthetic fill, polyester fleece, and wool.

[@MrWillyp00]

@@DarwinOnthetrailAfter the triple crown, you can focus on harder instead of longer hikes.The weight quotient changes. More important to carry the whole toolbox than see what you can do without. Do ten miles a day or less with more camera work. Lots of time with your pack off setting up scenes. Documentary Style!

[@johnganshow5536]

@@MrWillyp00 Yup, Anything but down and cotton. I lived in southeast alaska for 12 years..

[@backpacker3421]

I was raised in and currently live in the PNW, and I won't take synthetic anything except a Capilene base layer. Treated down and wool. I know a few who are northern Midwest winter hikers, packing into -20 weather who are the same way.

[@JeremiahStringer]

Appreciate you making this video. I am currently shopping for my first hiking jacket. I have no experience with cold weather hiking, but this is my first step. Great video Darwin! Enjoyed 🙌🏻

[@MBergyman]

I didn't see it mentioned but when you were talking about fill power, you did state that a higher fill power would loft more, but that is only if the same weight of down is used. A pound of 900 fill down will fill 900 cubic inches. 1.5 pounds of 600 fill would be required to fill the same space, so would weigh 50% more for the same thermal performance. In the case of jackets, this may amount to 2 or 3 ounces, so the extra cost per weight savings may not be worth it to some. It is always best to buy gear that lists the quantity of down, just so it is easier to compare items of interest.

[@thibaultstroobandt9606]

Darwin, I notice that almost no one seems to talk about one con of down in particular, being the fact that the little feathers over time start poking through the outer material of jackets, resulting in less filling and lost of loft over time. Is this also the case with the Ghost Whisperer and Patagonia Down sweater or shouldn't I worry about this with jackets at this price range?

[@MisfitsFiendClub138]

Good point!

[@AlexanderMason1]

Those are actual feathers and not down. Lower quality down is usually cut with up 20% in feathers. Good down definitely doesn’t do that and more importantly, if you have a good quality jacket that has a good quality lining, it definitely won’t do this.

[@movdej4783]

I learned something new today.

[@hikintrailsndrinkinales]

I have both, but I’ve come to basically the same conclusions. My synthetic is part of a Marmot 3 in 1 jacket; wherein it has the option to zip itself into a semi water resistant shell. It’s great for its versatility, but is heavy and takes up space. My down jacket (which is also a marmot) is better for dry long distance applications. The best way to keep body oils from damaging the fibers is to wear a long sleeve base layer and keep it washed!

[@rodsofgod6863]

Down always for me. I'm not going swimming with my down jacket or going out on a rainy day with it so there is no worries in down getting compacted. I mostly use my down jacket on SNOWY conditions not on rainy conditions.

[@RainyDayForge]

Thanks for the education. A new jacket is on my “need to buy” gear list.

[@richarde1355]

I’m 60, and I’ve been an outdoors person my entire life, living in Nevada, Utah, Arizona, California, and now in Washington. You will be tempted to go cheap and save money, but don’t. Stretch yourself and get the best you can get - get the crying over once. The worst is to compromise and later wish you had spent that $100 or $150 more to get the best item or one you really wanted. You won’t miss that money years later when you’re still enjoying the higher quality item you purchased. Buy right, buy once. I have been the king of upgrading my entire life, and I would have saved a lot of time and money if I had bought right initially.

[@RainyDayForge]

@@richarde1355 100% Buy Once, Cry Once.

[@matthewjogden]

If it’s down feathers make sure it’s Ethically sourced. Just watch a video on how they can harvest it.🥺

[@kalebduncan6982]

I am currently a down user, but this video definitely made me think (mainly due to the versatility of a synthetic jacket).

[@Mugtree]

Fab review. Personally I use a synthetic to hike. Live in the UK and it’s either raining or snowing so mostly wet. I use my down jacket in camp or to go to the pub 👍

[@hvrtguys]

Neither. You need wool. If you get wet, wool will still keep you warm.

[@brucewayne-ej3cx]

Good to know

[@mungox1]

wool is heavy wet or dry

[@krikun98]

So will certain synthetics.

[@MrNorthstar50]

Yea and moths love to eat and lay eggs in wool.

[@willemduitemeijer1683]

Insulation is air, so the material that “holds” the most air is best. Same goes for duvets, like in bed covers. Lighter fill for summer and heavier for spring and autumn. Combining the two for very cold nights. Keeping it dry is the main part. I find the synthetic products make me sweat more.

[@rbennett0721]

I hate to be that guy, but I don't really see anyone else doing it and I feel like it needs to be part of the discussion; down harvesting is a pretty brutal industry. I REALLY appreciate you (Darwin) referencing the vegan aspect of hiking, not many people do, but I would like to elaborate a bit. Down is generally collected from living birds, over and over, typically from the foie gras industry, which basically force feeds birds to death. SOME industries have moved towards methods of sourcing "ethical down", but that's like saying the country transitioning to "clean coal". The feathers are just harvested from slaughter houses instead of foie gras farms. Synthetic fill has come a LONG way over the years, will continue making massive advances, is generally cheaper than down, will most likely be more than enough for your hikes, and doesn't come at the price of torturing or killing innocent animals. It's genuinely awesome to see SO many people in the comments that have already switched to synthetic, but for those of you that needed a extra push, I encourage you to make the switch. If any of you are vegan or interested (or just looking for another great person to follow), I suggest looking up Cotezi on Instagram and KZbin. She's awesome, genuine, helpful, and hilarious. Thanks for the video, Darwin! Excited to see how you like the other jacket!

[@borealphoto]

Some down is harvested from nests. I'd rather take down from farm animals than fill the sea with plastic insulation.

[@strider00111]

Why do vegans look sick and anorexic? Why are most vegans libtards?

[@rchrisawn2867]

@@strider00111 not all vegans look sick and/or anorexic unless they are not eating properly and insuring that they get the proper mix of protein and vitamins. But the same could be said of anyone that does not eat healthy except most people that are not vegan or vegetarian end up looking like a beached whale. And not that it matters, I am conservative.

[@MrWillyp00]

I like foie gras. If you have ever watched the force feeding process in total rather than in politically correct snippets designed to be disturbing, you would see that the geese enthusiastically await feeding time. Ethical down? The statement itself is absurd. I have an ethical pet rock. I also like bacon, which is the gateway drug for vegans. Moo!

[@MrWillyp00]

@@strider00111 Because one has to be thoroughly brainwashed as well as developmentally challenged to even consider being a vegan. Can't they hear the brussel sprouts screaming in pain? The trees moaning in dismay? Many vegans are libtards because they lack that sensitivity. Plants have feelings too.

[@davidcalderwood2887]

I've got a Patagonia 800 fill down hoodie and a Proton LT synthetic, Patagonia is 90% my go-to pick for just grabbing any one coat and heading out, Proton is great for layering or if I'm going to be doing anything active, and for warmer days.

[@metalbearuk]

Got a fantastic Karrimor down jacket where the hood and sleeves zip off, so you can wear it as a full jacket, hoodless or as a gillet. It's warm and cost me a whole £30. It's water repellent and has never let me down(no pun, intended!).

[@paganphil100]

metaldaduk: Yes, Karrimor make some great products.....rucksacks, clothing, equipment, etc (I used to work for them many years ago).

[@claeslook]

@2:28 I heard "There a lot more science that goose in to it"

[@saeed3873]

@@profribasmat217 hahahhaaa i see what you did there xD

[@thewhat531]

I prefer synthetic over down for ideological reasons.

[@burrows10011]

Literally a perfect review of insulation. Nice work.

[@thdjjfsfh]

I have a few down jacket and parka that I wear everywhere in the city. The moment I hit the trail though, it all synthetic. Its performance is much more consistent from the trails head at 20*C to the windy and moist summit at -10*C. I will occasionally carry a down layer if I think I'll encounter temperature well below freezing. Moisture disappears below -10C and water are in solid form. There were times where my down jacket seems warm a dry -10C, but seem cold at a moist 0*C. I don't notice many variations in synthetic. Sleeping in my synthetic have been pretty bad for them and it forces me to purchase a new jacket every year or two. I still use down sleeping bag because the weight and compressibility of down is still the best out there. It's unlikely that you'll be really wet inside your tent. In such a case, you still have your synthetic jacket.

[@AKHorton907]

I’m a North Face employee and I often recommend our synthetic jackets for our wet climate in PNW. Plus I’m vegan haha

[@michaelgolen7747]

Wouldn't the downside(pun intended) of down getting wet from rain/snow be mitigated by wearing a Rainjacket over it? Or would it still get wet just from the humidity?

[@DarwinOnthetrail]

Good Question Michael!... In my experience it just gets WAAAY too hot when hiking with both on. Plus no Rain Jacket is "Waterproof", they are "Water Resistant". ALL Rain Jackets wet out at some point.😉 Hike On, Darwin

[@Kim_gs1206]

The sweating would be a problem and the down would get wet. But just sitting in camp on a rainy day would be fine, just don't hike in that combo.

[@wickywack1781]

A 10X will never wet out, Darwin. Just sayin’ but I love your hiking insight. Peace.

[@wisenber]

@Michael The rain jacket traps your perspiration inside the down jacket.

[@Temporalplace]

@@DarwinOnthetrail Jacket made for water sports has 10000mm resistance, its more than most tents. OR u can just use poncho above down jacket

[@MrWillyp00]

It's simple folks. Weight vs Job. If you are doing 20+ miles a day in weather mostly above freezing, weight rules. If you are climbing Mt. Everest, job rules. Surplus military gear, job rules by default. If the job is to reduce weight, that means big money and the loss of some durability. It's about what you need for your situation.

[@jimmythefish]

Live on Vancouver Island, use the Patagonia down sweater when it’s dry, use a fleece jacket to layer under a shell when it’s wet. I just bought my wife the mountain hard wear stretch down that’s supposed to be pretty hydrophobic. We’ll see. I generally don’t like down anything for high output activity unless it’s really cold and really dry. My Patagonia down sweater gets used a ton casually, and as a lightweight layer to carry around. When things get real, synthetic to match the temperature and then throw a shell over top if it rains or snows.