Data Reveals the TRUTH About Elon's H1-B Debate!

[@CombatVeteranReacts]

Get 20% off StrikeGum this Holiday! strikegum.com/

[@SirBedevereTheWise]

Seems to me, my brother, this post needs to be shared with the idiots making false claims and misinformation. They strive off of misdirection and misinformation for whatever political aims they have. Often it's keeping us focused on the left hand so their right hand robs us. Politicians are illusionists and "magicians"

[@NYx3]

The primary reason for the H-1B visas, they are cheaper and that the company can hold the visa over their heads to exploit them. In short they can pay them less than an Americans.

[@anthonygordon9483]

I think you should redo your math. Most of these Visa's are for high skilled jobs. Not jobs in general. So instead of calculating jobs in general, you should calculate IT American jobs in general. Second 80,000 visa per year clearly is a rate. Not a overall calculation of Visas given overall. So your taking a rate of Visa's issued a year and dividing it by our total population ? Thats not giving a accurate portrayal of whats going on.

[@LearnAndFun773]

@CombatveteranReacts Adding more to this First of all you have to remember out of 168 millions of labor force 18-21 % are immigrants(it doenot even count the illegals who are working here in states hiding)..and In 2021, 44 percent of Fortune 500 companies in the United States were founded by an immigrant or the child of an immigrant. And you have to remember H1B comprise mostly indians (74%) but it includes other nationals as well..and 30% of all fortune 500 company ceo is indians. And 76% of all STEM job are taken by US born. And if you check the data, Genz only comprise of 6.1% of labour force..where 18% baby boomer and 34% genx. This mean only 6.1 % of genz are productive in this country and these are the reality and why do you think this is the case?And that artical is bogus because I think vivek ramaswamy was talking about this problem rather than criticizing the whole American culture as a whole. What I understood is , the younger generation(genz and younger) donot have those work ethics and willingness to become productive and be useful unlike the people in america( older generation) once had or still have. And if you see tge data, baby boomer and genx will be unproductive soon because they are nearing their retirement age. And with genz ( which is our next genration workforce), there will be big problem in our economy. And also death rate will soon surpass the birth rate in USA. And there are more than 10k people reyiring everyday. So who do you think will fill all those job? And as you showed the productivity is increasing but the main question is sustainability of productivity. And for sustainability it is crucial for USA to bring immigrants in this country if they want to remain in top global power.

[@MichaelEvanson-o4z]

So everyone shouted yes we want smart immigrants when Trump said we need them at rallies .. but now there is a war about it 🫨💯

[@fredfart666]

“It’s impossible to find trained people willing to work” - for near minimum wage. Fixed that quote for all the tech bros.

[@benholroyd5221]

Thats not true, If youre 20, and have 10 years of experience....

[@Apollo-tj1vm]

I think the main part is trained people. We are talking about college educated positions... in a culture that thinks college is overrated. These jobs tends to pay 35 to 40+ an hour at a entry level salary.

[@lrmackmcbride7498]

​@Apollo-tj1vm a coworker with 30 years of experience was laid off and replaced by three outsourced Indian programmers making $5/hr who had no clue.

[@suntiger745]

​​@@Apollo-tj1vm I suspect that's because the 60's and 70's parents told their 80's and 90's kids "you have to get a college or Uni degree to get a good life, or you'll end up in retail or the trades like a pleb". And when the kids listened and got those degrees there where nowhere near enough college/uni degree jobs for them. Enter the age of memes about dishwashers and pizza delivery guys with engineering and biology degrees. The 2000's and 2010's kids saw this as they grew up and concluded that college and uni degrees were a good way to get a huge debt and then still have to work low level shit jobs for shit pay, so why bother with a degree? Yeah, as always the real situation is a lot more nuanced and messy, but there is enough truth in my simplification to make a solid point.

[@NYx3]

Real reason for the H-1B visas is because businesses want people they can pay less and by sponsoring their visa they can use that to exploit them. I"ve worked for companies that laid off people and then replaced them with H-1B people. I've also been on job interviews where they would try to discourage me from wanting to work fo them because they want to hire an H-1B person. Part of the requirement for a company to get approval to hire an H-1B person is that they have to show that they tried hiring domestic and could not. NOTE: When you see a want ad that is asking for a bunch of skills that nobody has and have nothing to do with what the company does that is a sign that they want an H-1B person and not an American for the position. I've been on interviews like that and called them out on that.

[@alexanderdimitrov6916]

This isn't about culture. Rich people love cheap labor.

[@matiasyannuzzi9655]

I'd say it's a problem with rich people culture. They should work on fixing that. Doesn't look good.

[@devinnie7572]

When right wingers say culture they mean skin color.

[@VikingTeddy]

It's easy to have a high productivity when you have wage slaves. Keep them working two jobs to merely exist, and they won't have the energy to complain or make changes. So yes, the work culture is beyond broken. (Just not exactly as was claimed.)

[@fake12396]

Yeah, like how have people still not realized that it's a big reason why both sides of the mainstream establishment in most of the west love bringing in immigrants lol, they don't need to pay em as much

[@KeithBoehler]

Is it or does the free market want senior engineers and doctors for $15/hr?

[@behrensf84]

As someone who had an H1B, I can say that yes. We will do any work, no questions asked. When the employer is holding a potential for a green card in front of you, that is a very big and motivating carrot.

[@shelleygriffiths1240]

@@behrensf84 and that is wrong against us

[@SodiumSyndicate]

@@shelleygriffiths1240 You do the same, work like us or skill up higher. Would you buy an expensive car if a cheaper car had the same quality, service & features?

[@seattlethunder16]

and that is the abuse of the system that has to stop. I have seen really good kids brought over by my employers and lied to over and over about the green card - and I think only one out of a dozen employers actually worked on getting them a green card.

[@fredericlewin721]

for about the first decade the visa workers could not convert to green, by law.

[@vncstudio]

@@fredericlewin721 This is not correct at all. You might be thinking about the J1 exchange visa.

[@Ginga6]

You’re wrong on this one. Working in IT, I can tell you for a fact that H1B is used for cheaper captive labor. Having seen the payroll, I can tell you that for roughly 1 American Java Developer you could pay for 2 or 3 H1B Java Developers. Also keep in mind those layoffs are going to offshoring and AI. For offshoring, 1 American system administrator here can buy you 10 over in India. This kind of labor arbitrage is behind what President Musk wants.

[@edfhobbies556]

Yep, WSJ - US IT unemployment is 6%, 50% higher than national avg

[@luisdotespinal]

Also, he's not denying that H1B is a source of cheap labor (he noted that close to the end of his video.) His main message is that Musk and Ramaswamy are full of sh*t when they claim American culture is unproductive or that they can't find talent locally. That's the main takeaway from this, backed by numbers.

[@1963pyros]

Correct!

[@bobeeman9730]

Correct, it's selling out american middle class jobs for short term gain. I dont know a single peer that wants to work at tesla or any of the global leaders. Its a damn meat grinder. We do it because of the pay and the resume bullets. This is way cheaper than treating people with respect.

[@dichebach]

I don't think Paul's points are contradictory with the point you are making, is it? He isn't saying "H1-B good," so much as "Ramswamy is full of bullshit" and "H1-B" is a miniscule fraction of the total labor pool. I do think he misses the point a bit with that latter part.

[@Bluestreak589]

Working in the tech world for many years now... I can't even begin to count how many times I've seen Americans shown the door the moment a business either gets successful or runs into some hard times - Not because the business is reducing headcount.... But because said business is doing a 1:1 replacement of Americans with cheaper foreigners. Whether its H1-B or other programs I don't care - This stuff has got to stop. Bringing in the "best and brightest" immigrants is completely fine - But they need to be paid according to their supposedly superior knowledge/abilitites... The cheap labor component of the equation needs to be (somehow) eliminated (without loopholes). I'm totally OK with being replaced by an immigrant doing the same job I do - So long as they're getting paid (at minimum, I'd prefer more) the same as me (including benefits)... If a company thinks an immigrant is better than me, they should have to pay the new hire more than me.

[@suntiger745]

I concur.

[@4mb127]

That's only one piece of the puzzle. Without cutting costs heavily, I don't think most US companies can globally compete with China.

[@Idkoahe]

You obviously under estimate the power of corporate and political greed.

[@maxdougherty3429]

no, they should be paid less. thats the point. make labor cheaper for businesses by expanding H1Bs to stop offshoring. the issue is that with offshoring there is no economic multiplier, since the money spent is in another country and doesnt cycle back into our economy. a programmer or engineer straight out of college doesnt need to make 120k, 70k is enough. but main point again is the economic multiplier 5x-7x benefits of spending money in the country and reinvigorating the economy AND making the country more competitive since we snatch all the talent.

[@kenmvilla]

@@maxdougherty3429 "A programmer or engineer straight out of college doesn't need to make 120k." Why not? They should get paid what the market says.

[@erwinbauwens6833]

Belgian here. Good to know there are still Americans, like the Combat Veteran, who prefers facts and data over cult fights

[@burt2800]

Absolutely, this is what true patriotism looks like.

[@SpaceJunkie12]

Belgium is not a legitimate country. It is the rightful property of the Netherlands 🇳🇱

[@davidlemieux615]

Facts!?! Rather warped view of stats. What percentage of the US population is brain surgeons? It’s small… so meaningless right? Not if you need brain surgery.

[@bobvanzuilen9366]

@@davidlemieux615 well, that would be true if the question was "are they important?". But it wasn't. It was about if that group would influence wages. And such a small group will not. He did not state that group is not important.

[@Wim1979]

Erwin, ik mag hem wel. Maar in dit geval misinterpreteerd en misrepresenteerd hij toch wel de feiten. De stijging in productiviteit heeft niks met de cultuur te maken maar is volledig te wijten aan automatisering. Verder vind hij exuses om geen vergelijking met de Scandinaven en Finland aan te gaan, op basis van het feit dat de Noren olie hebben. Ierland is een belastingsparadijs en luxemburg is te klein. Dit klopt natuurlijk, maar is naast de kwestie. Als hij dan ook gemakkelijkerwijze Nederland, Oostenrijk en BELGIE vergeet heeft hij ineens nonchalant van een derde van de EU gezegd dat het niet de moeite is van er mee te vergelijken. Maar vergeet hij even dat dat een eengemaakte markt is en samen wel de vergelijking waard. Dat is even zien wat hij wil zien deze keer hoor. Hij heeft het hart op de juiste plaats, maar is een beetje overstreching zichzelf denk ik. Schoenmaker blijf bij je leest zou ik zeggen, militaire analyses.

[@thebarnetts7195]

India is one of the very few countries that work longer and harder for less than Americans. Is that what we are aspiring to? Becoming more like a countries populous with a horrible quality of life? A lot of European countries work less, have more vacays and are MORE productive because of it. Let that sink in. We're going in the wrong direction here people.

[@currypablo]

Europeans aren't entrepreneurial and productive. Europe isn't what we should aspire to be.

[@kimchiba4570]

Really.. Is that why now American and Europeans companies need tariff to stay competitive? Sure have a good life , but not a spoilt good life

[@Nabium]

@@kimchiba4570 Workaholics are the richest people in the cementary.

[@77Avadon77]

The dream of every rich billionaire has been to bring the cheap labor of asia legally to the US. That's where H1B came in.

[@Peter-nu8st]

@@kimchiba4570When india and china have 40% of the global population and they have no human rights there so people live in unbelievable poverty while working all day every day. Yes.

[@OwenFromOhio]

As a retired IT Professional, I have a relatively strong opinion of H1B Visas. I worked when the American Programmers were Kings and when Big Corps bought Indians for pennies on the Dollar! No one in the USA, say for the Stock Holders, benefits from H1B Visas. They result in USA destroyed careers!

[@ricardoxavier827]

I started my work career as a IT professional. No indians problem. EU money paid professional schools to provide tech education to us. The problem is that my country took the money to produce 3 times more IT experts than the nation need, so all IT workes work for minimum wage, with few exceptions. IT its a qualifyied job, but, its clean and light and safe. The wages market its all about demand vs offer economic rule. In IT, like we say here, its 7 dogs for one single bone. Too many technicians wanting to be IT worker. To improve my life i had to follow the qualifyied professions that few want to do. I am industry electrician now, and we need IT skills as well, and its more heavy and dirty and life dangerous. 1 mistake and you die. 1 mistake and you create great economic lost for your boss, not only by destruction risk but by production stop\delay risk as well. And they can form for free how many electricians and mechanics they want that they will not be able to flood the work market enough, because after training to do the job you must accept body pains with dirty and life and economic danger over your shoulders. No blue screens danger. The danger are real. The pain are real. The the dirt are real. And few with qualifyied education want that jobs, so less competition so more margin to negociate your wage. And by the way, AI will not steal our jobs... ;) Mean while, AI will steal more jobs to all IT workers than indians will ever be. Electricians do IT work besides cables intalation and repairs. Machines has both. IT programmers need will be reduced in around 90%.

[@nebraskarooster9244]

100% - Not just H1B visas however - outsourcing/off-shoring also decimates US middle-class technical jobs.

[@Richard-jj9bj]

They can be useful if utilized correctly in areas like emerging industries where there is not enough domestic talent or to recruit exceptionally skilled individuals. Not when used en masse to undercut the pay of Americans in industries that have an established labor pool

[@gorgo54]

​@@Richard-jj9bj there are a lot of exceptionally skilled American. IT professionals. Literally people born already programming Fortran basic and then moving on to higher levels by the time they were 14. No, the companies just didn't want to pay the price of high high quality talent from America. It was much cheaper to hire high quality talent from China, India, wherever. As a background, I've worked around Silicon Valley from the 1980s onto 5 years ago

[@ricardoxavier827]

I started my work career as an IT technician as well. Because of EU funding of professional schools, my country took the money and formed 3 times more technicians that the economy trully need. So that flood of technicians wanting to be IT technicians force the profession to be based in minimum salary, with few exceptions. Its the situation we call: 7 dogs to one bone. To leave that profession to earn more, i made another tech diplom and became industry electrician, and start to earn much more. Why? Its easy... IT are a qualifyied job that are light and clean and safe. As a industry electrician, you need to be IT capable as well, and its heavy and dirty and dangerous. Dangerous both for your life and economically for your boss or yourself if self employed, because of one single mistake. No nice blue screens.

[@DianaNezi]

Yes! Yes! Thank you for looking and highlighting the irony of two years of mass layoffs to a sudden shift in "we are in a tech labor shortage, will anyone think on the corporations?"

[@batyanko8283]

It's fascination how far bureaucrats are from the actual productive process. One wants to bar workers, another wants to hire them through a loophole in order to exploit them. And none of them give a f about how real value is created.

[@suntiger745]

Line must go up. :D

[@Ryman158]

So, you're saying you're a communist? Because capitalism is perfect and has no downsides.

[@inigoromon1937]

Those are not bureaucrats. They are part of the MAGA mob.

[@batyanko8283]

@@Ryman158 uh wut?

[@Skywatcher16]

@@batyanko8283 i think they are mocking the mindset of those who would disagree with your sentiment

[@johncnorris]

As an engineer I've worked with H1B engineers. Some were very good and others were like a warm turd in the punch bowl. I think the US is going to screw itself over with this corporate leverage HR maneuver.

[@Mauiman-w4k]

I worked in IT for 45 years and cannot tell you how many untrained or ill trained H!B workers from India were used to avoid paying a good wage. There are more than enough Americans available to fill the open jobs.

[@altratronic]

"There are more than enough Americans available to fill the open jobs." Not in microchip design there aren't. I recruited engineers for all phases of the RTL-to-GDS design flow for 30+ years. At least 90% of the people in that field were not born in the US.

[@edfhobbies556]

Yep, WSJ - US IT unemployment is 6%, 50% higher than national average

[@edfhobbies556]

@@altratronic There can be if corps do the minimum in getting it taught in schools and graduating US students. That's what happened in IT, US graduates 100k new IT students a year now there's no need for 85k new H1Bs

[@Mauiman-w4k]

@@altratronic Then train them

[@KALKAL_ISYU]

Indian Programmers and system designers ARE OVERRATED and unthinking FOOLS the MCAS system installed in BOEING 737 and caused many deaths was designed by Indian System designers and coded by Indian programmers..

[@zeitgeist8870]

4 e-4 is 0.04%, you forgot to multiply by 100 to yield the percentage.

[@Cecil_Harvey]

@@zeitgeist8870 he also thinks it’s less than zero… not a math genius up there.

[@u98626]

The salary price manipulation doesn’t come from a large population of foreign workers bringing down the industry average, it’s done by replacing domestic development teams with imported workers, paying them less despite the visa rules disallowing such and getting away with it because the employer controls the worker’s residency in the U.S., then moving forward by changing the salary compensation scale company-wide to devalue all of the engineers.

[@viktoreisfeld9470]

That's also just H1B's cap per year - which is often raised or exceptions are often granted. They add up year by year since H1B renewals are not counted. There are over 2 million active H1Bs in the USA right now. That's not trivial! Also, when an H1B is awarded you're also importing all of their family and giving them different work visas as well.

[@GoErikTheRed]

@@viktoreisfeld9470that bit about families just isn’t true. I know multiple H1B recipients and none of them brought family. Granted, they all come from reasonably wealthy families back in India, but still

[@viktoreisfeld9470]

@@GoErikTheRed www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary-workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations/employment-authorization-for-certain-h-4-dependent-spouses

[@rickmyers7627]

H1-B is pretty well understood, but L1-B is also a sneaky way to get around H1-B limits. With L1-B, the American company only needs to open an office in India, then hire someone in India, and after a short period of time can transfer that "employee" to the US as an inter-office transfer with no limits, as there are on H1-B. I used to work for Verizon, and they did a ton of that... one of the reasons (as an IT worker) no longer work for Verizon! H1-B and L1-B need to be reformed.

[@SodiumSyndicate]

Time for American tech companies to simply relocate here to India. Americans can focus on Tinder & getting laid.

[@mikewilson858]

I work at hotel and we have different visa program for low skill workers. The scam is that they are supposed to be here getting an education in hospitality but we send them back with a pretty good understanding of washing dishes and step and fetching. But we can work them like dogs and they are happy for the money to send home. Of note until we started importing Indian workers my experience of them were the tech guys that passed through and I assumed they were a whole nation of nerds. But these new guys we brought into the restaurant like the drink and party like the Americans in the restaurant. Cool guys. And they also hate working, they just don’t have much choice. They get canned, they gotta go home and tell mom and dad they washed out and they won’t be buying that house.

[@Likeaworm]

Most of the Indian that come to the US are extremely rich in India. India has been sending their best lol

[@mikewilson858]

@ yeah, we joke with them about slum dog millionaire shit but they are from the more well off Indian families. I mean they aren’t rich by our standards, they aren’t leaving lives of leisure to work here for fun. But they can make a lot more doing the same work here rather than there. And when you see how the other half lives in India, you do not want to be caught slipping. Like I’m poorer than my grandparents at the same age, but I’m still comfortable.

[@NarpytheCrimeDog]

It's because people from poorer countries will take lower salaries since they don't have student debt like Americans and the exchange rate is beneficial. Meanwhile, they have educated slaves who can't step out of line lest they get deported.

[@ricardoxavier827]

Actualy 2 of my diploms i was paid to study and not work instead. But for US social-economic reality its out of their minds... EU financing professional schools to help countries to develop faster.

[@SodiumSyndicate]

India is the global Pharma capital & the global Microchip design hub of the world - wake up from your racist filth dream.

[@steveeuphrates-river7342]

"Is that Strike gum in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?"

[@flaviusiacob1558]

LMAO

[@IconoclastX]

Lmao, ya'll are wild

[@myblujl7503]

These people USE H1B to get cheap labor. Why would they "fix" it? My mom worked at a talent scout/agency that got programmers for a big software company. They had the fax machine directly hooded up to the shredder. They never once looked at local applications! They were incentivized to use H1B's to fill spots. They were paid X per head, no matter the source, so if they can get a worker to do it for dirt cheap, they kept the difference. The only way to fix H1B is simple. If you need an H1B to fill a position that a US worker could fill, you must pay them the same you would a US citizen. We are talking TAKE HOME salary, not what you pay the recruiter who keeps most of it.

[@myblujl7503]

BTW, the H1B's that come to work in the US wire 90% of their wages home, and sleep in 2 room apartments with 10-12 other H1B's. The economy tanks if good paying job's like that are lost and the money is NOT getting spent in the US to support US jobs. Trump and Musk only care about money, and H1B's are easy money for them.

[@CaptainSunFlare]

Most H1Bs are direct hiress and get paid the same as a U.S. citizen in a similar position (well above 6 figures)

[@myblujl7503]

@@CaptainSunFlare The truth is big corps higher recruiters to fill seats and give the recruiters a budget. How they spend it is up to the recruiters. I know this from first hand experience. The recruiters are incentivized to find the cheapest labor to fill that seat, and keep what's left over. A well documented case in San Fram showed a recruiter paid an H1B less than minimum wage and was suid. Im not saying they are all this way, but H1B's are stealing good paying jobs. A lot more than any illegal that jumps the boarder.

[@fredericlewin721]

originally congress banned body shop recruiting. They got around it by placing a 'project manager' on the job site. the visa workers reported to the company that ran the project for the actual employer.

[@NeonTrapperKeeper]

I’m a former immigration attorney and currently working on immigration within USCIS. This commentary and video is 100000 percent spot on. Well done.

[@rabiatorthegreat6163]

Those small nordic countries being highly productive is interesting, because these also tend to have relatively strong social systems. Not exactly in line with conservative ideology.

[@canadiangemstones7636]

They are very progressive indeed when it comes to caring for their citizens, the exact opposite of maga.

[@tuukkat939]

Norway has oil, which makes their GDP huge relative to their small population. Not reproducible. Sweden has benefited greatly from the fact that they stayed out of ww2. The welfare state in Sweden became a honeypot for immigrants and now the problems are apparent. Iceland and Finland have the advantage of being relatively homogenous, high trust, high IQ, white, Lutheran work ethic countries. Finland has been going deeper into debt for the last 16 years. In short, the advantages that Nordic countries have are not reproducible, and the welfare state DOES run into problems once the money runs out. Finland killed NOKIA with socialism.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

They generally have high individual tax rates but low corporate tax.

[@sonderexpeditions]

@@tuukkat939 you can make excuses about anywhere though. The reason Americans lived relatively wealthier lives compared to today is because after WW2 all other countries were either experiencing after effects of imperialism or recovering from war.

[@nicolaasstempels8207]

You can see it in the US too: on average 'blue' states are the most productive, and subsidise the 'red' states. If the US were split into 2, blue and red, the blue state conglomerate would be near the top economies in the world, while the red conglomerate would be in the middle section. Top 5: DC (b): 260 k GDP per capita NY (b): 111 k MA (b):105 k WA (b): 103 k CA (b): 99 k Not a single red state in the top 5 Bottom 5: MS (r): 51 k WV( r): 58 k AR (r): 58 k ID (r): 62 k KY (r): 62 k Not a single blue state in the bottom 5

[@erickottke9673]

I'm a former army CPT working in heavy industry now and I've been hiring computer (automation engineers lately)...the minimum you can possibly offer to an H1B is $130k and American born engineers ask for much more, this is because they will get it from somebody. This stuff about H1B program suppressing wages is absolute hogwash, at least in my industry.

[@laurafolsom2048]

It’s about cheep labor. I think we should investigate how many H1B visas are at trump properties..that would be an interesting statistic.

[@mcdougles]

I'm in IT for 30 years and I have to say the only good thing in India staff is ... they are cheap... sorry...

[@GoErikTheRed]

As an engineer myself, there is a huge difference between engineers in India and Indians who came to the US to get an engineering degree. The former are cheap. The latter are all hard working and good at what they do

[@rayrwyr]

I have worked at Microsoft for many years. They hire many H1B and I know for a fact, their salaries are not at all less than their US citizen counterparts. They frequently get hired at high ($200 to 300+K) salary and bonuses. The same is true for all reputed tech companies such as Google and Amazon who hire a lot of H1Bs.

[@ricardoxavier827]

@@GoErikTheRed Its about competition. Scarcity under upper demand creates value. Simple economic rule. My country used EU money to flood the work market with excess of technicians, to qualifyied jobs become cheap work force with few exceptions. I solve it changing profession. I am industry electrician now. Still need to understand IT work plus electrical and electronics and mechanical... IT jobs are qualifyied but light and clean and safe. Everyone wants. 7 dogs per bone competition. What i do now are qualifyied, but, heavy, dirty, physicaly dangerous, and economicaly dangerous. One mistake can end your career or life. But better wage.

[@victorortiz1387]

Importing Cheamp labor while we get the worst of their culture? Great just what we need

[@ricardoxavier827]

@@GoErikTheRed software work majority will be replaced by AI. That indians will only speed faster the end of that profession workers need. Here all hardware IT work are already made by electricians and not IT nerds.

[@LakesouthTiger-tw6es]

Using the GDP output of each country to determine the efficiency of foreign engineer efficiency is not a fair comparison, because the GDP is the comprehensive result of a country's political system, economic policy, governing efficiency, education and culture, etc. It is not the right way to assess the working efficiency and capability of any engineers. Suggest the author to use domestic data from within US on foreign engineers to support your claim.

[@NYx3]

What is true is that corporations more often will use the H-1B visas to lower cost since skilled Americans demand more money. By hiring someone under the H-1B program they will pay that person less and use the sponsorship as leverage to exploit them. I've seen this first hand and know people who work under the program.

[@LakesouthTiger-tw6es]

@@NYx3 My personal experience indicates that most companies never hire H1B visa workers for cost reason. There are procedures in Immigration service to prevent this happening. But it does not mean it never happen. It can be prevented.

[@NYx3]

@@LakesouthTiger-tw6es Most H1B visas are to save money and not what they were intended for. I know people who were hired under that program and they were making less than their American counter parts. They are also stuck with the company for at least 3 years while the sponsorship lasts which is to get them a green card. Sometimes the companies lie to them and after the 3 years they find out that the company did not provide the legal help for the green card leaving the worker to hire his own attorney and under threat of being deported. I've been on job interviews where I had no chances of getting hired because they wanted to hire someone under the H1B program and they were only going through the movements to fulfill the requirements to apply for that visa. If you ever see a job description that sounds impossible for anyone to meet chances are that they want to hire a foreigner. These are large corporations that do this to save money. They have attorneys on the payroll so the sponsorship does not cost them anything since they are still getting paid and the salary of the foreigner will be lower than if they hired and American.

[@znail4675]

That chart he showed is not GDP/capita as that would put USA higher up. It looks like it's productivity of industry workers. India is a bit special case as due to caste system statuses of jobs so are they strong in math and software while weak at engineers.

[@Wack373]

100% agree

[@AnOnymous-w1j5q]

Who of the Republicans gives anything about the actual data and facts? Just curious.

[@HubertBarnes]

None of us , it is miniscule on the agenda .

[@davidaleksidze3381]

Apparently a lot of them do, since this issue came up.

[@d3adlyz3bra]

@@davidaleksidze3381 none of them bring up the actual stats tho. they just say india bad brown people bad stop the visas

[@HubertBarnes]

@@davidaleksidze3381 No, the dems blow this out of proportion for them.

[@dgour2004]

Always blame a dem. How about the Laura Loomer's of the world who want zero immigration and has many supporters ? That's where the schism comes from.

[@marcbenjamin9436]

Really well-researched. Nice job!

[@mrvwbug4423]

Anyone who's worked in tech knows that H1-Bs are horribly abused to suppress tech wages. And there's nothing wrong with the American work ethic, that work ethic put a man on the moon and built the largest economy in human history. Vivek fails to mention the part where those insanely overworked Indian/Chinese tech workers have horrible productivity, China in particular with its "996" work culture has some of the most unproductive workers in the world. The most productive workers in the world are the French, they work 35 hours a week, with high unionization, generous benefits, good work/life balance and laws heavily restricting after hours "on call" work.

[@TCK-9]

Best Buy did this years ago. They were super successful, built a brand new palace of a HQ very close to the location of their original store, moved everybody into the palace from all over, and then 3 months later let them all go and replaced all but a certain level of management with hundreds of Indian employees contracting through low cost Indian contractors. Every apartment building in the immediate area has 6-10 living in every unit.

[@siamak81]

You forgot to mention how this debate started: Elon Musk said they need to remove the H1-B cap. So instead of 85k/year think about 800k/year.!

[@akostadinov]

GDP per work hour doesn't necessarily show who is hard working.

[@khanh8524]

@@akostadinov or if the work is good too,

[@IconoclastX]

Everyone with a brain knows that people in thw freaking 40s were God tier compared to modern people, its just delusional to even suggest otherwise. And thats not counting the fact that industrialization was not as big and many families were farming the land, not on the clock

[@redrust3]

I wotk in IT. Back when H1Bs were exploding, there was a corresponding series of layoffs in the tech industry. A former programmer was interviewed working on the onljob he could find. A commercial fishing boat. He had been making $90 thousand a year writing code. He was replaced by three Chinese programmers with H1Bs , working double the number of hours, for a third of the salary. Byinventing a labor shortage, his company was able to generate six times the work for the same price.

[@mikewilson858]

Our high productivity is a result of work smarter not harder. Half of India’s productivity is diving a water buffalo with a whip. If that’s your life, you might move heaven and earth to get out of that.

[@JoeRMS]

This is very true. Not to mention, in India the caste system is STIILL an unspoken ingrained impediment to climbing the social or economic ladder. The USA either loses these motivated immigrants heading back to their home countries, or to China, Russia, or even Canada. USA competes on a macro scale and this albeit small segment of HB1 available people, due to their motivations can add “spark” to a nation, country, company, peoples, and well being.

[@Exmachin]

They could build India

[@Duke_Romilar_III]

The other half are scammers at call centers...

[@franciscoceballospeniche9034]

According to your own stats, Asians and Indians are smarter than you. Remember affirmative actions?

[@johnmboon]

And the corrupt 1% might move heaven and earth to maintain the unfair stsus quo. Oh wait, is that India or the USA as well?

[@markb8468]

I just can't understand why a 22 yrs old, college grad with a programing degree wouldn't want to go to the middle of nowhere and harvest nuts or fruit.

[@ABa-os6wm]

They are willing, just not for the proposed salary. It's good for your health. But not for your salary.

[@vin.handle]

I am not an expert on the issue of immigration, but I have learned that there are about two dozen elite universities in India that specialize in graduating technical specialists who often find their way to technical jobs in the US. It is not as if the entire country of India produces these technical specialists. And many of these university graduates belong to the Indian money elites.

[@SodiumSyndicate]

You are talking about IITs - none of the graduates belong to any elites, they pass the toughest public exam (JEE) where only 1000 out of 1 million students studying for the exam since Childhood, get to enter an IIT. I would be surprised if 10 American kids would pass the JEE exam.

[@fredericlewin721]

if you are not rich, but manage to get good grades, India [for 50 years now] will pay you a full ride scholarship in a targeted field like Information Systems. Not just in first rate Indian universities like IIT but to US universities like MIT.

[@vncstudio]

IITs are not for elites. They are managed and subsidized by the Central Government of India. If you are smart enough to be placed in the upper percentiles of the entrance exams, you can get in. Simple as that. The acceptance rate is less than 2%.

[@aaroncruz9181]

Even Indian KZbinr's like Soch, explain how it's not too difference from how the British education was used in India.

[@BorKagan777]

In IT business for 35+ years. We need tariffs for H1-B and L1-B visas and outsourcing. I'd say 25%-30% paid by employee with money going directly to train US tech workers. Something like competitive scholarships for US citizens/residents. The other aspect of H1-B is that very most Indians coming to US are from well of families, they also do not have student loans. After a few years in the country, they are buying properties, pushing prices up.

[@SodiumSyndicate]

Learn from them then instead of complaining that someone is investing their money & not spending it on show off toys.

[@ChevyRobSCV]

Highest GDP in the world = less time for underpaid, in debt, unhealthy employees to spend time raising families and actually enjoying a healthy happy life.

[@franciscoceballospeniche9034]

Are you talking about fat USA?

[@ChevyRobSCV]

@franciscoceballospeniche9034 yup

[@Rolf_factchecker-Reborn]

Thats not whats going on in Norway,

[@ChevyRobSCV]

@Rolf_factchecker-Reborn i know.....Norway cares more about the quality of life for its citizens than the bottom line.

[@Ode-to-Odysseus]

More informative statistics are those that measure happiness or contentment. Money is of little use if it can not alleviate misery.

[@sadikithoth]

H1B is a smokescreen, the larger issue is shipping jobs fully offshore. When companies gut their IT departments, it doesn't result in a bunch of foreign workers showing up at the office, that would be way too expensive. H1Bs aren't getting "exploited", they can go home after a few weeks and pay cash for a house in India. What keeps American workers down, mostly entry level workers or lower-tier run-rate work, is outsourcing the jobs to India to be worked from these gigantic call-center-like campuses guarded with soldiers wielding M-16s. They can pay an entire team for less than the average tech worker. Productivity and skill level are near nonexistent, but they might be able to squeak by and keep the lights on if the work isn't too complicated.

[@khanh8524]

I concur and seen it happen.

[@GeorgeLerma]

THis is what i've been saying! - H1Bs are not even the top problem! It's offshoring!!

[@khanh8524]

@@GeorgeLerma outsourcing is bigger issue for sure.

[@GeorgeLerma]

@@khanh8524 how do i know this? I was an IT engineering manager and COULD NOT hire anyone from the US because my budget would not allow for it, so we hired people, ironically not from India, but Belarus and Ukraine and even some countries in South America. Any region that had talent but for almost half the wages of a typical U.S. engineer. Then I got laid off as a manager for being too expensive.

[@khanh8524]

@@GeorgeLerma I had the same experience but we had to train them before we could get our severance.

[@FxRiderST]

The ship is sailed long time ago. 90% of IT workers are Indians. It started in the 80s to save on cost and by now no American is possible to find as there aren't schools to in America to offer the training in IT jobs. We lost it to a corporate greed.

[@Ryman158]

*capitalism

[@maryb.c.507]

"there aren't schools to in America to offer the training in IT jobs." nor clearly schools that train in facts.

[@seattlethunder16]

For the H1B system to work, it needs to: 1) pay the foreign worker a competitive US wage 2) cannot make the worker put in more than 40-50 hour weeks 3) give the H1B worker the same vacation/sick/healthcare benefits as a US worker 4) force the employer to pay for their green card 5) cannot replace a performing American worker on the same project or if they do - the company has to pay the employee's unemployment for at least 1/2 their salary until that ex-employee finds another job 6) setup massive fines for a company that is reported for abusing the system

[@alexanderb1433]

this has more to do with companies wanting to pay the least amount possible for engineers, two dollars above minimum wage for these jobs they make up for it by giving them a lot of Overtime.

[@fredericlewin721]

Information systems engineers are the only engineers excluded from overtime pay, so companies have always abused them with 20 hour work days and call in the middle of the night. did not matter whether US citizen or visa worker.

[@zahedia3]

Me: Circa 1996, F1 visa (student/Aerospace Engineering)-> Optional Practical Training (valid 1 year) -> H-1B (valid 3 years with then option to renew once) -> Adjustment of status -> Green Card + after 5 years -> Naturalization in 2010. So 15 years! Add 2 interviews (For the green card and the naturalization) and cannot have felony or worse on record. So to MAGA: you kept saying you’re ok with legal immigrants who do it the right way, who “wait their turn”(whatever that means), but now you’re losing it over a visa you knew nothing about 2 weeks ago. What the hell do you want from us then? Your friendly neighborhood Persian immigrant guy.

[@celsus7979]

What they want is to maintain an image to their voters that the American worker is still the best and America can do anything on their own. Playing on these nationalistic emotions is an easy way to get votes and to not have to come up with actual solutions to complicated problems, requiring nuance and insight.

[@celsus7979]

Not that democrats are different. They just use a different emotional string to pull.

[@gustavogoesgomes1863]

they want a scapegoat. they are obsessed with that because they REALLY think immigration is the cause of their problems. they can't see what is directly in their faces: the economy is growing, the nation is getting supposedly richer and richer, but the working class keeps getting worse and worse living conditions and wages. they want the working class to look for their enemies around them, when their true enemy is over them. it's the very people inciting this infighting. deportation won't solve nothing, but once these detention camps and policial apparatus gets consolidated, I really doubt anyone will be able to gather and stand up to the true culprits... we are seeing a orange guy that talks like a fascist, acts like a fascist, proposes fascist policies and ideology just about to assume as a president. what a surprise would it be if said guy represses democracy to keep the working class at check with their continuous precarization, huh?

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

It's 2024, not 1996. The tech industry stories about H-1B are now coming to light. For your information I've been hearing about H-1B being abused in the Seattle tech space for a decade.

[@myblujl7503]

@@ChucksSEADnDEAD 8 years ago when Rump was running the first time, it was discovered that he used H1B's at his Mar-a-Lardo resort to fill labor positions, even though plenty of US hotel workers were willing and able to work. Its funny how socked his fanboys are now that he supports H1B's. Its not the illegal that jumps a fence down south that willl "take your job" its these H1B's that will take good paying jobs for less that will.

[@Nicholasbroughton0420]

EXCUSES TO NOT TRAIN US. BULLSHIT.

[@MsKawami]

Great information 👍🏾

[@JaimeOrtega-i5r]

If HB-1 visas were only good for 1 year only in the entire history of the US, then you're correct that 65000 new slave workers probably wouldn't affect US engineer pay that much. But now MULTIPLY that figure by the last 45 years of HB-1 visa not just last year's 65,000 x 45 and you now have about 3 MILLION slave engineers in the US working for half price with double hours. So mathematically this has then and is now negatively affecting the pay of all Engineers in the US. You also forgot to mention that although productivity is at record levels the pay is the same as your grandaddy 45 years ago, but h9using, food car and other costs and inflation keep rising. So, the corporate welfare of the 80s has to go and pay has to rise. This is the only thing that makes mathematical (and common) sense.

[@Stumpy1234]

It's a limited 2 or 3 year program. You either re-apply, get a green-card, or go home at the end.

[@JaimeOrtega-i5r]

Doesn't matter the exploitative law has its effect no matter what the time frames involved. Thats its sole purpose. The law is past its prime.

[@KH-cs7sj]

The core issue with the H1B program lies in its lottery-based selection process, which fails to prioritize the best and brightest candidates. Many talented graduates from U.S. universities find themselves competing against foreign-educated workers sponsored by staffing companies. These companies often inflate candidates' work experience and provide unauthorized assistance during interviews, giving unqualified applicants an unfair advantage. Worse still, a loophole in the H1B system allows these staffing firms to submit multiple entries for their candidates in the lottery, while U.S. university graduates hired directly by large tech companies as permanent employees are limited to a single entry. The H1B program needs a comprehensive overhaul to fulfill its original mission: attracting and retaining top-tier talent.

[@mcdougles]

Instead of H1-B US should improve his own education system. Trump administration wants to close DoE, they want to cut support for public schools, colleges and universities are too expensive. US should make high quality education available for wide range of people. Even for poor.

[@ItsmeBhuvan]

Basically talent from India is going across the world to find work, see the migrants list from India to other countries. Just 40000 legal immigrants every year from India is causing headlines in super power country ...think that 1 million people staying back in India and cause the difference. I believe it's good for America to take all the talent and be in the top 10 or stop them and make other countries become top 10 list

[@didobill]

The Canadian government advised its departments about credibilty of foreign (mostly non-western) degrees. As a rule of thumb, a masters degree from India was almost equivalent to a bachelors degree. There is no equivalency.

[@Exmachin]

Usually lack of creativity

[@fanuvtoons]

I know you can’t post a non KZbin link but can you tell us what your source for that claim is? It seems like wishful thinking, the sort of thing someone repeats on social media that started in low grade clickbait.

[@didobill]

@fanuvtoons Years ago, it was a Treasury Board document. In response to your query, I see the info is now with the Canadian Information Centre for International Credentials. There are also links to other sources, including European, to assess foreign credentials. The bottom line is that employer HR departments are lazy and assume that an Indian university degree is equivalent to ours. That is not the case.

[@fanuvtoons]

@ Thank you

[@rasputanrasputan1380]

I’m daughter was taking classes at community college..she could not understand the teacher. She said he couldn’t care less about the subject he was supposed to teach.. I didn’t know about H1B imports.. Dr. Shiva explains the racket it truly is…

[@arunks9233]

Fix US education system to educate US kids learn today's and tomorrow's technology. Stop relaying on foreign labor....

[@moriumakhter2424]

A lot a graduate Americans are unemployed because of corporations greed.

[@purpasmart_4831]

I graduated with my degree in 2023. Still no job. And Ive been doing mutiple projects since then to add to my portfolio along with open source software.

[@1975PHS]

🇦🇹Austria, high Taxes, no Natural Ressources, 5 weeks Holiday, free Health System, 38 1/2 Hour work week, and more produktive than US… I don’t know how we make that possible.

[@dony2852]

A part of the reason the H1-B exists is to also poach the best people from foreign nations the US can to maintain its competitive edge. If Google, Microsoft or Apple can hire some princeling away from India, it secures connections with businesses there while lowering the incentive for some potential budding tech genius from becoming future competition.

[@JoeRMS]

I think the above statement sums the program up very well. Expanding this program or reinforcing the program attracts talent to stay and thrive in the USA. I love the facts delivered on the video today especially the one about of large companies in the world 60% were started in the American marketplace. I want that % higher (I am from the USA). I think the combat vet facts were all true but not granular enough on segmental marketplace “gaps” we can exploit by attracting motivated immigrant’s who want to thrive and contribute to the Freedoms afforded in this country. Excellent truthful video content but I think what was missing was what the commenter noted above.

[@Likeaworm]

Brain drain is a real phenomenon

[@sathivv950]

@@JoeRMS I think we should find whatever employment you and your family is engaged in, import their replacements from foreign countries for 40% of the pay, and then you can tell me how great it is for America. I have been in offices where 95% of the workers were Indian and that is weird AF. They were workers like everyone else and not ultra talented or whatever this made up bs is to drive down wages for citizens.

[@edfhobbies556]

Its being used to displace US IT Workers, US IT unemployment is at 6% so THERE IS NO SHORTAGE

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

But in India the best simply score high in the exams and get cushy govt-sponsored jobs. The GATE exams or whatever.

[@aaronjenkins9069]

Thanks!

[@benholroyd5221]

I don't think you can conflate working hard with GDP. A lawyer billing for a 1 hour business lunch is not working harder than an Indian subsistence farmer toiling over an entire year.

[@TheWheelTurns]

the first chart was on productivity - goods and services delivered not just GDP, yeah GDP alone distorts everything but productivity is a different set of metrics.

[@benholroyd5221]

@TheWheelTurns I was referring to the comments around the 8:00 mark. Anyway you still can't compare productivity with hard work. They may be people working hard in $(insert industry/company you find useless or harmful). The work may not be productive, you can't accuse the workers of being lazy though.

[@CitsVariants]

That is irrelevant. Construction worker in US does equal job of madagascaran construction worker. american receives 5k a month, madagascaran receives 100$. He is looking into productivity not gdp

[@thetumbleweedkid284]

exactly

[@celsus7979]

The first chart was the history of the USA's productivity. The chart comparing the USA to other countries was GDP based (or GNI which measures GDP plus foreign investment)

[@halo7250]

This is your country. Jobs for locals and a fair wage are basic human rights, just as they are in any country. Why should foreigners be allowed to come in and take the best jobs, while well-educated locals end up losing their jobs? All citizens should stand up to nepotism/disproportionate hiring from a single country.. Stand up for your rights.

[@up4open]

" If you don't allow American companies to hire the best, foreign companies will." Presumptive that they are poor because they just haven't found their best. What if they are poor because that is their best?

[@ricardoxavier827]

Patents....

[@up4open]

@@ricardoxavier827 Nobody is stopping people from using patented materials in a private design. Patent defends against the item being Sold, not recreated.

[@jcwoodman5285]

H1b visa workers are under much tighter control & have less worker rights than American workers. So if the visa worker doesn't like working 80hr weeks for less $$ then you send them home by having their visa revoked... much simpler to fire them.

[@dgour2004]

Founder and CEO of Nvidia born in Taiwan. Co-founder of Google born in Russia. Could go on. You'll find many of tech giants have immigrant founders. As you say it's such a tiny fraction of overall immigration so why any argument to allow them to get people if they want / need them ?

[@oliveuk]

yeah, O visa and H1B are "brain drains" so the higher the number the better. Every county has similar schemes to attract the best talents.

[@sathivv950]

Ok fine. Then limit the H1-B programs to CEOs only

[@canadiangemstones7636]

Maga says they have to go, so solly.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

Jensen Huang was sent to the US to live with an uncle. He didn't come in via H-1B.

[@kenmvilla]

Please go on. Because you're talking about exceptions, not the rule.

[@jonragnarattugaard8201]

Just a small notification, 4.7619 E-4 is 0.047619 % or 0.476 ‰. Procent is already a hundredth.

[@plsuh]

TL;DR - the true figure is that H1-B visa holders displace approximately 6.5% of Americans in the relevant industry, which is enough to drive down salaries significantly. I'd respectfully ask that you post a correction video and edit your original to make it clear that your first take on this is flawed. A few problems with your analysis: 1. Your math is off by a factor of 100 -- 80k / 168m = 0.00047619 or 0.047%. This is minor as the basis for this calculation is flawed. 2. 168m is the wrong denominator, which is a serious error. H1-B visas are not competing with the general population but with Americans in STEM occupations. This is a much smaller number, 10.7 million in 2023 by BLS numbers. (I suspect that your search was returning results not only for H1-B visas but also for H-2A, and H-2B visas. H2-A is critical to agriculture as they are used for migrant workers. The H2-B visa is used in the landscaping and hospitality industries.) 3. H1-B visas are issued for 6 years not 1, so you need to multiply the numerator by a factor of 6 - so 85K * 6 = 510K, plus there are conditions under which H1-B visas can be extended for various reasons. This checks against a USCIS estimate of 583,420 total people with H1-B visas in 2019. 4. Most of these debates miss a back door -- L-1 visas. There were a total of 73k people with L-1 visas in 2022 and nearly as many spouses on L-2 visas. In my experience many of the spouses are also in STEM fields, so assume 50% of them are also in the same labor market, or an additional 36k people for a total of 109k. The upshot is that the corrected percentage is (583 + 109) / 10700 = 6.5%, which is a significant percentage. This is definitely enough to drive down wages for Americans, particularly people working entry level positions in IT and other tech fields. The US unemployment rate in Information industries for Nov 2024 was 2.3%. Without H1-B and L-1/L-2 visas the unemployment rate in tech industries would be -4.2% -- i.e., companies would be begging for engineers and raising salaries right and left in a bidding war. Furthermore, an H1-B visa (or an L-1/L-2 visa) ties the person to the employer. They have zero bargaining power under this system and their only recourse is to go home. Employers love this since it means that they can cut salaries and force unpaid overtime without any pushback. An American would be free to move to a competing firm, but non-immigrant visa holders are stuck. This is the system that Musk, Ramaswamy, et al are trying to extend. And they'd like to extend it to many more industries, not just tech.

[@Stumpy1234]

You have errors, H1-B applications already include Tennis Coaches, Plumbers, College Professors, Academic Researchers, and, at least in one application, a Male Exotic Dancer in Vegas.

[@toastbrot1096]

From a technological and educational standpoint india is not equal to the US, so they are having a lower productivety than the US based on this factors. A culture of hard working ist not enough to make you productiv. I think what Elon means is Indian American compared to regular Americans which actually also is not very comparebale because These Indians are filtert out by the US they dont let anyone in. But you cant just compare the productivety of countrys that easely. Japan is know for the people there working themselfs to death, they are on the Same technological level as Germany, they even have better education i think. They also have nearly 2times the amount of citizens. But still Germany has a Higher BIP. Why is this? I acctualy dont know, iam not a Professor of world economics or something. I would just guess that Germany works with a Higher efficiency.

[@SirBedevereTheWise]

"like India" Even if this was true, does his opinion matter? Fk no! This is America. He wasn't elected, he was appointed. He's not my pick for anything

[@Foxie635]

Let's remind Vivek that Indian culture is so great that they want to leave India to work here? Why not build your culture up there as well as cities using their GREAT engineering degrees? The nerve.

[@kurt477]

You got it all wrong. You are blaming the wrong people, blame billionaires like Vivek and Elon for exploiting the visa system. Don't blame Indian people for taking a better opportunity for themselves.

[@ricardoxavier827]

Knowledge are already patented so they cant use it without international economic blocks.

[@ricardoxavier827]

@@kurt477 Indians should be respected because of Kama Sutra and Fredy Mercury. Nothing more -.-

[@bluedog101c]

@@kurt477 We do not want a culture that bathe in a sewer. There is nothing that India has that the US wants.

[@grant5392]

​@kurt477 no actually, I think you've got it all wrong. India should be providing the opportunity for their own people. It's okay to come to America for higher education, but then go back and take your education to your people, educate them, build YOUR kingdom up. YOUR kingdom needs opportunity too. America SHOULD NOT be the only place in the world where people go for opportunity. America CANNOT take care of the world alone. We are here for people who are escaping oppression, india is not an oppressive place. India is sending crap into space now, India is ready.

[@hanflingch]

4.76e-4 is 0.000476 which is 0.047% which is larger than 1/1000th of a percent. Maybe the real reason for the H1-B visas is to be able to hire people capable of percentage calcualtion.

[@MajorPlink]

I’d say, all the employees that Disney just replaced would note a financial impact…

[@arkadi8499]

What talent are they even talking about? High school graduates getting 1-3 months of training while earning a salary? The same applies to many college grads in tech jobs. The only real "advantage" they have is speaking English with an Indian accent, which seems to carry more weight than actual skills compared to other foreign counterparts. Meanwhile, Americans are labeled as stupid and are forced to go through mandatory training on diversity and inclusion programs that ultimately push them to turn a blind eye to their lost opportunities and the local discrimination they face.

[@celsus7979]

"The H-1B program allows employers to temporarily employ foreign workers in the U.S. on a nonimmigrant basis in specialty occupations or as fashion models of distinguished merit and ability. A specialty occupation requires the theoretical and practical application of a body of specialized knowledge and a bachelor's degree or the equivalent in the specific specialty (e.g., sciences, medicine, health care, education, biotechnology, and business specialties, etc.)."

[@gorgo54]

Diversity training has nothing to do with it. Services and skills. You're just venting your own racist b*******. And someone has worked in Silicon Valley since tandem computers, it's all about the dollars. It's never been about the lack of skilled personnel. Or if there has been, it's certainly a surprise to a number of American computer. It engineers and specialists who've been laid off at various times over the past 40 years. Today the number of students earning a bachelor's in computer and information sciences has more than doubled over the last decade, from 51,696 in the 2013-2014 academic year to 112,720 in the 2022-2023 academic year. We have plenty of people, the problem is that American corporations, especially starting around the 1980s when people like Jack Welch and the MBA factories of the ivy League schools decided the financial metrics more important than talent and experience. Hence the Great migration of jobs outside of the United States and outsourcing to places like India and China. And that is why China has matched the US in pretty much everything, including defense over the past 30 years. American businesses literally financed China's technological and military expansion. But yeah talk about not bullying. Some gay employee is more important. Idiot

[@gorgo54]

​@@celsus7979That's the paper version, the practical version is they can pretty much hire anybody who has a degree and then claim that they have a special skill and then bring them into the United States even though plenty of Americans have the same" special skill"

[@NoName-cx3gk]

Switzerland’s productivity is genuine, driven by a higher GDP per capita, a strong industrial base (~25% of GDP), and a trade surplus. In contrast, U.S. productivity relies more on scale and debt, with a lower industrial share (~18%) and a trade deficit. The claim that Swiss productivity is "artificial" is unfounded.

[@SodiumSyndicate]

USA's economy depends on printing the dollar & forcing the world to buy the dollar & giving goods & services in exchange & exporting inflation.

[@sylviat9692]

Why would another country send their best people? This is not true? Their government keeps them in their country. India is sending their mediocre talent. They have a whole business of brokers that process the visas to send them here and their families. They just have to pay. The majority of legal immigrants come from India. CEOs from Microsoft, Google, Adobe, IBM, Palo Alto Network, Xerox , KZbin, FedEx are all Indians and it's quite peculiar that they only want Indian immigrants

[@canadiangemstones7636]

I wish South Africa sent their best, instead of President Musk.

[@johnschwartz1641]

Aside from totalitarian states like the DPRK, countries don't "send" people anywhere. People who live in India want to work in America and take the personal initiative to come here. "India is sending their mediocre talent." What does that even mean? Do you have any evidence at all that the Indian government is picking people to send to America, or are you just ignorant of how the world works?

[@amotriuc]

Lol, this is not how it works, India does not select who gets H1B visa, US and the person that applies does. So India does not sent mediocre talent, if you get mediocre talent is because US company did select it or best people don't apply because in India is better to work than in US.

[@sylviat9692]

@johnschwartz1641 India has similar junior colleges where anyone can pay to attend and get their engineering degree. It's not MIT. They have brokers who specialize in US visas, they just have to pay. India has low work productivity and has declined. So, how are we getting the best geniuses?

[@buwaya4223]

@@sylviat9692 India has a network of state supported technical universities, the IIT system (Indian Institutes of Technology). The competition to enter an IIT campus is intense, these have vast numbers of applicants and few open slots. A very large proportion of the H1b AFAIK are IIT grads. The IIT's vary by reputation, the best apparently is Madras IIT. BTW it is, by far, southern Indians, notably Tamils (which you will find in Chennai/Madras) that dominate H1b, etc.

[@KirbyMiller]

The US is so productive because of all the H1B workers we bring in to do the work. (btw, that's a joke)

[@redhead6415]

Not sure it should be a joke

[@moritamikamikara3879]

A nation is not the ship of theseus. You cannot just take all the bits that make it up out, swap it for other bits and still have the same ship at the end. You will have a different ship. And it does not fucking matter whether or not you'd have a better ship at the end or not, because you will have destroyed the original ship. I do not want to be unemployed anymore!!!!

[@12pentaborane]

I think the ship of Theseus is a paradox rather than a parable.

[@davidbalcon8726]

America’s (i.e. the USA’s) “secret sauce” is not just innovators but equally wealthy investors willing to take the risks! But all the most productive Indians have emigrated to the USA, UK and Canada. The left behinds show that India will never be a major industrial or manufacturing country even if its government hopes to replace China in that realm.

[@michaelweston1042]

I saw it first hand where I worked. Over 1/2 the Americans were replaced. I also worked at places that shut down and left country. That any of this was allowed and even encouraged is an outrage.

[@greenmedic88]

The tech layoffs don't reflect the departments from which workers were culled. During the pandemic, and the free, stimulus money printing, corporations could borrow freely with the Fed rate near/at zero %. This sparked hiring sprees to snap up the best talent, the talent, and even the not-so-talented across multiple departments, including departments that had nothing to do with company bottom lines or real productivity. These contributed to the bulk of the culling, once the Fed raised rates and the free money printing stopped. Companies kept the best talent/most productive, and dumped the rest. But without a doubt, there were high paid, capable, experienced engineers, who contributed to tech companies' market dominance who found themselves replaced by H1B workers who could do fill those positions for less, who would work harder, longer hours with their visas on the line. So the double-edged sword here is that the H1B can be used to entice the best and the brightest workers, but unquestionably can also be used to pad corporation bottom lines and stock prices by hiring cheaper talent, which just has to be capable, not "the best".

[@JaimeOrtega-i5r]

Right tax havens but also the size of these countries relative to the US. Also, the Nordic countries are productive because people in Nordic countries have a high quality of life factor, and happiness factors and are paid what they are worth and so enjoy going to work. What a shock.

[@NoName-cx3gk]

I like him, but he's off track, seemingly favoring the U.S. unfairly. While the U.S. relies on giants like Amazon and Walmart, countries like Norway and Switzerland thrive on productive SMEs, such as Norway’s Kongsberg Gruppen or Switzerland’s Victorinox. These companies focus on sustainability and quality over scale, avoiding the U.S.'s debt-driven growth. Unfortunately, some U.S. corporations acquire and dismantle SMEs, outsourcing production or driving them into bankruptcy, which threatens local economies.

[@JaimeOrtega-i5r]

Right dismantling of local businesses that make quality products fully USA made is a problem. But getting rid of competition that just resells the same cheap Chinese junk that Amazon/Walmart sell at a higher price who really cares? Really perhaps a small transaction tax on this junk and the money funneled to these fully domestically made products manufacturing facilities. Now that would a coup.

[@fleetadmiralsidiqi1941]

Why does Modi have no culpability in this conversation? 🤦🏿

[@laurie9557]

I asked an Indian visiting Microsoft in Redmond how many Americans work at Microsoft India. NONE. He explained that the Indian government protects their jobs.

[@ChrisChocol]

mfers

[@kimchiba4570]

Are u looking forward to pack up leave and go work in India? They dun need government legislation .. Just the filth alone will dissuade you

[@SodiumSyndicate]

American companies like Coca Cola, Pepsi & Western companies like Nestle destroyed local Indian industry in the 1970s & 1980s - you called it competition back then. Well, compete with Indians now or perish.

[@fredericlewin721]

US is nuts! we are the only country that gives admission preference to foreigners at our state subsidized land grant universities. The colleges' excuse is they pay the slightly higher 'out-of-state' student tuition. Helps balance the budget. Many citizens have been denied education.

[@ChrisChocol]

@fredericlewin721 businesses used to have training programs for people, probably much more than they do now, because it was a proper way to do things. create a good worker that you can count on. now they just get tax breaks and cheap labor

[@thebtron]

I have lost my job to H1B visas few times, I had to train them to take my job before I was fired. They are cheap Corp labor, I seem whole departments replaced with them.

[@BritishBulldog78]

Data was never Elons friend

[@caninesandcompany]

lol…. He collects more data than the cia

[@Likeaworm]

My biggest concern with the H1B program in the 80s was the degradation of our educational capacity and look what has happened. There needs to be a convention on education in this country and employers needs to sit down and layout what skills are needed now and into the future so we can train the future work force. We’ve done this before there is no reason why we can’t do it again!

[@gorgo54]

You're arguing that there are not enough it professionals being generated by our schools. That's b*******. The number of students earning a bachelor's degree in computer and information sciences has more than doubled over the last decade, from 51,696 in the 2013-2014 academic year to 112,720 in the 2022-2023 academic year.

[@andrewmueller23]

I don't understand why we're pretending India has this amazing education system. A quarter of the population is illiterate and their education system isn't nearly as established or advanced as the US. It's much poorer than the US. The only advantage India has is that they'll take a lot less money for a job.

[@andrewdegeorge9649]

Interesting data, but it doesn't show how productive H1B workers produce compared to non H1B workers.

[@Anonymous12345-u]

There are 600,000 H1B visas. And international students don’t get tax payer subsidized education.

[@edfhobbies556]

***THERE IS NO US IT WORKER SHORTAGE*** WSJ - US IT unemployment is 6%, 50% higher than national avg

[@CaptainSunFlare]

IT is a broad field. You're quoting a statistic you clearly don't understand In some specialties, there is an oversupply of labor. This is largely from too many people pursuing that skill set despite stagnant or waning demand (Full Stack Devs and SysAdmins come to mind). Other more niche roles, like embedded software and systems engineering, are highly sought after. The latter category is what H1B is for. I'm a U.S. citizen, was vaguely qualified for one of these niche fields, and got hired very rapidly with good pay. Peers pursuing jobs that are overfilled are not so lucky Why don't more people pursue these niche fields? There are many reasons, but mostly because they are very specialized and not as easy to stumble into. I assume you don't work in IT, but please attain context before spreading statistics.

[@edfhobbies556]

@@CaptainSunFlare BLS isn't fake news

[@atikameg73]

"Workers" aren't entirely the reason for increased productivity. When it used to take 20 men with shovels 3 weeks to dig a ditch, productivity was low. Now when one man with a backhoe does it in a couple of hours, it shows as increased productivity. Productivity is a beautiful measurement for the owners of businesses, but not so much for the working class.

[@bonniepoole1095]

Too much to say about this! My master's degree in education taught me nothing about teaching. We need subject matter experts to teach high school math, science, civics, and trade skills- - not someone with an education degree!. Once, I heard Neil DeGrass Tyson say that his American graduate students had poor reading comprehension and math skills as compared with foreign born students. Elon's right that we do need immigrant tech workers; we also need immigrant medical staff (26% Physicians surgeons are foreign-born, 40% Home health aides, 15% Registered nurses.) We need immigrant farm workers (68%,) immigrant hospitality workers (22%.) That is, unless we want to drag grandpa out of reitrement and make children work in the fields we need skilled labor in the US. We also need to take education cues from other countries.

[@suntiger745]

Well, the Trump party is hard at work to enable companies to hire kids for their work force again so there's that.

[@celsus7979]

I checked the math olympiad 2024 results. To excel there is to be the very top of the world amongst students. The USA won over China by a tiny margin. The 6 team members of the USA consisted of 4 with a Chinese last name and 1 with an Indian name. I suppose that's not a coincidence.

[@_--Reaper--_]

Why don't you simply fix your own education system then?

[@bonniepoole1095]

@@celsus7979 The students who excel in the US and their creativity is top-notch! But the average student is capable of so much more! When we hold students to high standards, many more excel and those who aren't at the top still benefit.

[@bonniepoole1095]

@@_--Reaper--_ Policies from the top need to change. Private schools get paid by the number of kids in the seats so teachers can't fail a student or keep a student back a grade to give them tie to catch up. The teachers' union defend tenured instructors who haven't kept up in their field. Parents are busy working and many don't push the kids academically. Top, middle and bottom all need to change.

[@alandevries7170]

Thanks, Paul. Happy New Year to you and your family. All the best for 2025.

[@Wim1979]

You found excuses for Norway but not for all Nordic countries being more productive, and luxemburg is just a flee and Ireland is a taxhaven. You purposely forgot the Netherlands, Austria and us in Belgium. Together thats basically a 3rd of the EU you are dismissing , a single market. And when you dont look at it like that , you are misrepresenting reality to avoid comparison.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

The Netherlands has been cheating on fertilizer use and overproducing for EU export.

[@danhoffman9232]

In 2023 1.8 Millon Engineers in U.S. labor force. So basically multiply your number by 100. In 2015 30% of college educated workers in Scientist and enginers were foriegn born.

[@steverobbins4872]

The growth in US worker productivity is almost entirely due to advances in technology, especially in automation. It doesn't mean that US workers have better work ethics than workers in other countries, like India.

[@SweetAngel-s8r]

Wrong. Technologies exist generally for everyone. The amount of tech that is locked behind pattens is negligible. The question is mostly wether or not your workforce is capable of using said technologies effectively and yes also how well the workforce “functions” meaning an extensive version of “work-ethics”.

[@wselak]

boomer go live in another country and live on your own.

[@shionuzuki5549]

That's BS. We don't run sweat shops like in India and China. Tech bros and their logic.

[@nicolaasstempels8207]

The highest work ethics I've seen was in Japan, but I'm not sure that still holds today. Some Nordic countries, or Nordic-ish countries also have pretty good work ethics. Note, there can be great variation in work ethics within any country.

[@thomassutrina7469]

I worked for an aerospace company as an engineer from mid 70s to 90s. I worked along side lots of Indian and British engineers. I have no idea if they filled spaces that couldn't be filled by American. The only indication that they were more skilled was when a layoff occurred and none of them were let go. Which says they filled a job that American's couldn't. Aerospace is cyclic and servers two markets commercial and military. Usually they ebb at different times except for this one time. What I can tell you is that University education is significantly more expensive then when I graduated, and as a baby boomer they could and did raise prices because of the glut in potential students. The problem is that they have not accepted that the glut is long gone and they thing they can continue to raise the price faster then inflation. Our problem is that we have a top heavy education system that is destroying itself finacially. Another problem with a top heavy administration is they have to JUSTIFY THEIR EXISTANCE. This is why we get the classes and curriculums that make no economic and social sense, and they are lobbying congress to create loan programs to bring in students with a promise that their is a job for the skills they are learning. The universities should be finding themselves in court facing class action suits. Further the college capacity to have students with loans need to be balance with the success of students to earn money to pay the loan back. That is just good business. Every single one of those foreign engineers didn't fork our any significant amount of money to get a stem education, however; the testing to enter a stem program was brutal. I wouldn't be an engineer today if I faced those test because I have a very skewed skill set that has made me a top level engineer, always at the top in salary for the level I was at. We have a multiple entry higher education system that allowed me and many others to get a higher education, however; money or the lack there of has the opposite affect. We need to have a means of promoting those individuals that have shown a high level of potential in the actual field of their degree. Then we will not need as many foreign skilled workers. Demographic is not in our favor for obtaining foreign skilled workers. The industrialized nations have a pentagon shaped population to age shape. Where the historic shape is a triangle. We are likely to see a nation restricting them from leaving.

[@ThorBear101]

Paul, I'm a Norwegian. We have oil and gas, for sure, and that gives us a high score of "productivity". But you should look at the the oil production per capita of countries like Kuwait, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Canada and the US. All those countries have a higher oil production per capita.

[@jamesclaytonbowman5977]

while the US may have higher oil production per capita, much of that production is via fracking, a more expensive and thusly less-efficient means of extraction, so I would guess it doesn't boost our productivity number as much as that for a Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc. I think most of Norway's oil production comes from offshore, which, while maybe not as expensive as fracking (I don't know for sure), it has to be more expensive to get out the ground than the easy, low-hanging fruit around the Persian Gulf.

[@SodiumSyndicate]

Norway was a dirt poor country not long ago - it was discovery of oil & selling pig meat to both Nazis & the Allies that lifted Norway out of abject 4th world poverty & malnourishment.

[@whipivy]

4:11 not a good metric. Hours worked, only means hours on the clock, not actual time in production, meaning how much time does a product represent of people's time. Huge difference. To understand this, think of a guy in a cubicle playing WoW instead of working on a software product the company sells. Or people that are on the payroll, just in case they are needed, but aren't always dedicating their time to a product. Company still has to charge the customer for all this time, whether it represents inefficiency or not. We are extremely inefficient, it passes in the cost of our time, everything we make is very expensive, we are pricing ourselves out of markets. Then add to this, taxes, which have no correlation to time in production and that is the only thing that money can get value from; nothing has value until someone spends time on it. We creating massive amounts of what is essentially government mandated counterfeit money and it's eroding the value of real money from production. So no, hours worked is not very meaningful, we need to know, how much time did it take to make the product, not how much time did an employee charge their employer.

[@AnOnymous-w1j5q]

12:19 The “special sauce” is in a not insignificant proportion the ability to have entrepreneurs come to the country without too much of a fuss, to hire people from around the world with very little notice time (2 weeks or less), the ability to easily raise capital, the ability to issue bonds at a low price, low energy prices, and comparatively low amount of red tape. The H1B visa program helps because it allows to hire the best talent from elsewhere at a low price.

[@Ryman158]

And make sure they do as their told and don't ask for raises, because if they do they get kicked out of the country. Why pay an American a proper wage when you can have an indentured servant?

[@Lien-ke7xc]

I think Vivak was referring to how hard Indians work generally, not how much money they make in a fairly poor country such as India.

[@FxRiderST]

I thought that Trump said America first. What happened to this?

[@suntiger745]

Only as long as it gets him more money and/or less fees. If foreign workers and capital can get him a better deal, he will go with that. It's just good business and Donald Trump is a master deal-maker.

[@suntiger745]

That was a joke. Trump is not so much good at deals as he just refuse to pay his bills. Ask any contractor or subcontractor who has worked for him.

[@Francisturney]

My understanding was productivity increases over the decades were due to increases in technology, technology which is paid for because of our relative wealth and available due to highly developed tech sector which get this, is in part due to H1b visas. Americans tech companies benefit not only from a glut of highly skilled workers but also of the removal of those workers from their home countries where they could have helped develop competing Silicon Valleys. It’s not that there aren’t enough engineers necessarily, it’s that the more you hire, and the more you poach from other countries, the better you do, it’s almost like building an army rather than a supply and demand industry. Personally, I never met an engineer who couldn’t find a high paying job, and I know a ton of them. If they were fired from Tesla, they found work quickly elsewhere

[@dougspace6734]

The moment immigrants leave their country and step into an advanced, functional economy like ours, their productivity goes way, way up. You can't look at the productivity rates in their country and deduce their work ethic.

[@stewlew8449]

It's called brain drain. The best and brightest from India end up in highly developed economic countries

[@bluecafe509]

In the United States "debt" is considered part of the countries GDP. People's car loans, credit card debt, insurance fees, medical bills, and mortgages are all part of GDP. A very big part of it. ...Those things are actually weighing down people's lives and don't produce anything of real use.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

The debt is what created the cars and houses... before a car or house was built money had to be printed to match the market value of those objects. Banks issue currency to pay for those things to be built and thus exist.

[@buwaya4223]

Not true, unless debt gets spent on consumption or investment. GDP can be badly skewed by government spending. That's why the German GDP increased by 10% in 1944, in spite of bombing, etc. GDP = C + I + G + (X-M) C: Consumer spending, or the goods and services people buy I: Business investment, or spending on fixed assets like land, buildings, and equipment G: Government spending, or spending by federal, state, and local governments (X-M): Net exports, or the value of exports to other countries minus the value of imports into the United States Alternate Income approach Adds together the incomes generated by production: Gross profit of companies and the self-employed Wages of employees Taxes on products Minus subsidies on products

[@petersent123]

The issue we have is that when you pull up the productivity graph with compensation alongside, they aren’t even close to the same.

[@HubertBarnes]

The visa's are a few million people , mostly Indian and Chinese . Highly educated before arriving , and mostly employed by Vivek and Elon . The visas must be renewed every 3 years ,good for 6 years. They are temporary.Thank you Paul for informing the public that the sky is not falling .

[@buwaya4223]

Vivek and Elon employ a tiny number of people vs the whole US economy, and a very small percentage of H1b. Engineers of any sort make up a small % of any workforce. You should check your assumptions before posting. Tesla for instance employs 140,000, compare with General Motors 163,000 and Ford's 177,000. Maybe 2-3% of these people are engineers.

[@HubertBarnes]

@@buwaya4223 Checkout how many H1b visas are given out compounded yearly for decades . It amounts to several million.

[@AyushSharma-xp6my]

Plus It is true that America is growing very rapidly in technology, but when you compare salary of top product based IT companies like Tower research,it provide fresher salary range $90000 to 1lakh in india as a fresher,and last year i join Goldman Sachs India as a software engineer I can not provide exact details but it's starting salary it more than $ 50000 dollar in india