Line Array vs Point Source vs Human Hearing

[@KarlRock]

Turn on subtitles. Then you can see what he's saying during the white noise.

[@DaveRat]

Great tip! At some point I'll redo the video with better sound and fix that

[@satwantsinghbhatti3783]

Very nicely presented !

[@javierrodriguez4218]

Very interesting, thanks!

[@DaveRat]

🎤🤙🎤

[@argestrushiti1702]

THANK YOU

[@bobdinwiddy]

paradigm shift presentation ! #renaissanceman #bravo : learning moment : polarised audio : sunglasses for your ears . . . next level understanding : gracias : hartelijk dank

[@DaveRat]

👍👍👍

[@gijoemolinaro]

Thankyou so much for the brilliant explanation God bless ya

[@DaveRat]

Thank you🤙🤙🤙

[@tanyujackson773]

Wow I love this. What are the disadvantages of mounting a point source speakers in to line array boxes.

[@DaveRat]

Both lineries and point sources to their best to minimize box to box interactions. Linerays tend to have a lot more boxes then point sources and The design of line array high frequency components is very precise and very narrow for each box typically. You want to minimize overlap so if you use point source boxes they tend not to have enough control to minimize that overlap and will cause more issues There are line arrays that are used horizontally to some degree like the l acoustics arc system. And other constant curvature horizontal arrays.

[@TheFendertak]

Excellent video , but so which line array system is best to buy and best avoid, all raving about Evolve 50 , and the Bose L1 , it's all marketing hype to sell products..

[@xgamesnet4160]

This is hands down the best explanation of the actual, practical difference between line/point source arrays I’ve ever seen (and heard)

[@DaveRat]

Awesome!

[@kevinleblanc47]

Man I love listening to people who have forgotten more than I will ever learn.....You are a *ucking genious Keep on learning and sharing it makes us all better Thanks Man

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Kevin!

[@easthalldesignmiami]

This is great - so are we saying this type of set up is better than a single source set up? I’m a mobile DJ with a simple sub and top set up - but been eyeing the mobile line arrays for a while… great video and I’m now a follower! Cheers 🍻

[@DaveRat]

Welcome! On smaller scales, point source is probably better if you are able to cover the area with one or two speakers per side. If you need to shoot sound far or need a lot of speakers to work together to increase volume levels, line arrays are a good way to make the interactions between speakers less of an audible issue

[@hamarfourmusicproduction5548]

GREAT VIDEO I HAVE A QUESTION? Despite the differences between line array and point source being dispersion or coverage,is there any other difference between line array and point source speakers with reference to the manufacture components eg inbuilt cross over unit,voice coil ?

[@DaveRat]

Not really, Monterey boxes and point source boxes strive to be flat and use high power components with low distortion. The main difference between the two is line arrays put the speakers very close together in the vertical dimension and also have specialized horns or high frequency wave guides that allow them to some together vertically very well. Other than that you could change out the horn on a line array box and use it as a point source and it would work just fine

[@999emergncy]

great,,!, thankyou

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@dainsookdeo7086]

Very nice

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@TannerForrest]

This is an awesome video!

[@audiouniverse4372]

Superbly Explained...5stars

[@DaveRat]

Thank you!!

[@ReductioAdAbsurdum]

Not only are our ears on the side of our head, arranged horizontally, but we don't *fly*, so we arrange ourselves on horizontal planes and move on horizontal planes.

[@DaveRat]

Agreed

[@klovexthewolf]

speak for yourself!

[@DaveRat]

😁

[@ssgeek4515]

Wow. So bose 802s have removed comb filtering by mounting drivers on a curve baffle -a bit of horizontal and vertical array all in one??

[@DaveRat]

I guess. Placing drivers close together reduces comb filtering or at least lushes it to a higher frequency, ideally above audibility. Forming a vertical line reduces vertical coverage, forming a horizontal line reduces horizonta coverage. Forming both, reduces both. l

[@mbunds]

Is there a preferred microphone for these kinds of audio tests, or will any with decently flat response do the job?

[@DaveRat]

Even cheap measurement mics do very good job of capturing quite flat sound. Just beware of mic overload if measuring at higher volume levels

[@djijspeakerguy4628]

What are your thoughts on the new line array boxes with the LF drivers on the side? Examples of these products I can think of include L-acoustics L2 or D&B SL. Essentially, the drivers are positioned roughly a quarter wave behind the front drivers, and the drivers in front are delayed a little bit. So basically the sound is phased correctly in the front, but completely out of phase in the back. It’s similar to a cardioid sub, but in line array form. I think it’s an interesting concept, and I honestly find it cool. I’ve been in behind few stages with D&B KSL rigs, and it seems impossible how quiet it really is back there.

[@DaveRat]

All good, implementing endfire or cardioid type coverage to reduce sound from going places that we don't want it to go is helpful and will improve the overall audio. Sound energy going in the wrong directions really messes up the overall quality

[@djijspeakerguy4628]

@@DaveRat I agree. They are certainly great for the performers on stage, who could sometimes get muddy sound from the FOH equipment. Especially problematic for artists who tour with wedges and not in-ear monitors. I guess mic feedback could cause some issues too with too much FOH leakage on stage. I also noticed the speakers are getting smaller, because the drivers on the side make similar cone area in a smaller package. The D&B KSL is marketed as a replacement for J, but it’s a smaller speaker. It seems like a similar story with L-acoustics L2 being so compact in overall size for the total hangs, even though the boxes themselves are much larger.

[@DaveRat]

Yes DB per cubic foot of truck space is definitely improving as driver and amp technology advance

[@damalasproduction4883]

Great video!!

[@DaveRat]

Thanks!

[@godsonbrowne]

This is the missing link to all that I've learned about point vs line source. Human hearing. Thanks for this.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Gordon!!

[@lo_fye]

Would a single 4 ft tall DML speaker behave like a vertical line array?

[@DaveRat]

A line array is based on the exact same sound in phase and time radiating from the entire vertical line source. A DML is based on a sound radiating at a multitude of phases radiating from the surface. A line array is a multitude of pistonic drivers acting in unison, a DML is a sonic and phase chaos where nothing radiates in unison. The behaviors of these vastly different design will not be similar

[@PauloCesarBQ]

Wich is better for 4 speakers 15 inch or 18 inch 600w RMS. Line array or point source? I'm sorry for my bad English.

[@DaveRat]

Everything depends upon the application

[@markpavletich747]

So if I tilt my head 90 degrees my horizontal array sounds like a line array ?

[@DaveRat]

Perhaps but horizontal arrays try to minimize overlap between adjacent cabinets and linerays strive to combine the overlap into a cohesive ribbon type source. But this is not always the case like with the l-acoustics arc system, where the speakers can be configured in a horizontal or vertical array They call this a constant curvature array and can sound good vertically or horizontally. But unlike a line array you can't alter the angles between boxes and reduce the amount of volume drop with distance like you can with a line array

[@Canadian_Eh_I]

very cool

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@johnviera3884]

Try applying phase correction to each driver

[@DaveRat]

As long as the listener stays perfectly still and never moves, that could work. As soon as a listener moves even slightly or turns their head, a new phase correcting would be needed for the new location of the listener or listeners ears.

[@johnviera3884]

@@DaveRat no more Starbucks at the show

[@benjiyork]

Dave, you're on the front page of Hacker News. : )

[@DaveRat]

Ha, that's fun, thank you for the heads up and smile

[@clearbrain]

Beautiful ❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@AaronAlso]

Dave you are a legend. I've been to many of the shows you managed the sound for; and they always have the best sound. You should be in a hall of fame somewhere.

[@DaveRat]

😁🔧🔧🔧👍

[@kennisrussell]

Great video.

[@kricketman12]

when stacking does time delay or db level need to be ajusted to get max/effciency when in a diy setup

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, Need more info to on the question in order to answer.

[@kricketman12]

@@DaveRat wanting to diy line array for small party’s and want the volume to reach distance and sound good with out blasting ppl siting closer to stage didn’t know if time delay would help reach back farther with out having delay past 50 foot or use -db on the lower speakers as the array grows taller . Sry idk how to explain differenty thanks regardless

[@DaveRat]

@@kricketman12 a line arrays can work with no time delay or level differences between boxes as with a well designed and properly angled array, delay and level shading are not needed

[@TimpBizkit]

I think with flown J Arrays, the vertical interference comes into play not just going up and down but from the front and the back of the venue. The top speakers are typically pointed at the back, all the way down the line until the bottom ones are pointed at the front row, so you'll hear the transition from box to box more then. If you are talking about a smaller venue, with a flat floor area and speakers on either side of the stage, some places might choose to use a few of the vertically stacked boxes. You will pretty much be the same listening difference from the boxes in one stack, in both the front and back. Also the further you are from the stack, the more the speakers will meld into a single source. On another note I am particularly interested in the Danley single source horn boxes out at the moment, including a way to combine multiple compression drivers in phase at all angles of listening.

[@coolfxtr5419]

What do you think about Column Array tops? Are they real arrays or just fake?

[@DaveRat]

Not sure what brand you are referring to

[@coolfxtr5419]

@@DaveRat Sorry Dave. I didn't know if giving the brand is good. I'm referring to "RCF NXL-24 mk2" and "dB Ingenia IG4T".

[@DaveRat]

I'm more familiar with the RCF brand and it tends to be good equipment at a fairly reasonable price point. I don't know that particular model though

[@carltontriplett4947]

Absolute genius!

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@openbafflespeakerbuilder9863]

Really great video! I think the human factor is left out by the measurement/theory guys. That’s why there is so much debate about measurements vs. how things actually sound in the “audiophile” world.

[@DaveRat]

Agreed

[@xghram]

What model Sony headphones are those? Pretty unique!

[@DaveRat]

MDR cd3000

[@paulpaul00]

Great! Thank you!

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@michaelmikejameswillliams8373]

Thank you so much for the excellent explanation of the human factor in listening and how we react.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@jeankazamer9166]

Has to be the simplest, clearest well best explained vertical line array theory i've watched/read . Many thanks for that beautifull short informative tube. :)

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Jean!

[@abecoulter8550]

i miss seeing massive point source clusters

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@chriztphr3650]

Love this dude

[@bennettshapiro7711]

So much of what we experience as sound is due to our physiology and evolution as a species. What frequencies we are most sensitive to, how we perceive sound versus what sound is actually there, etc. It always kills me how little of any room, we actually hear stereo in. We know that Sound from that other speaker is reaching our ears, but our brain has turned off that second speaker, and we are only hearing the speaker we are closest to. Designing sound systems that best correlate to the ways in which our brains perceive sound, is just as crucial as designing systems that account for our physical attributes. Thanks much for doing this. These little reminders are so helpful in our daily endeavors to create the best sound experiences..

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and thank you Bennett!

[@DanMarcelino]

So what about a cross array? Or a circular array?

[@DaveRat]

Circular makes a beamy cone like a flashlight. The wider the array, the narrower the coverage is a good way to picture it

[@DanMarcelino]

Dave Rat interesting!!! Thanks for the response.. is it the same with a cross?

[@DaveRat]

@@DanMarcelino hmmm, a cross or a T will be vertically beamy where it has horizontal width and horizontally beamy where it has vertical height and be louder at distance where the two meet. Sort of like a top heavy beaminess This can all be predicted with available software.

[@DanMarcelino]

Dave Rat cool to read, thanks!!

[@stuungar3390]

Brilliant video as usual.

[@okaudiopro7613]

Amazing ....Thanks Mr. Rat

[@cognihensionchannel-doctorSSS]

Sure co-axial speakers are not more popular than small footprint cardboard box home stereo boxes?

[@DaveRat]

Oh my that makes so little sense to me

[@morleychallenged]

Geometry will not be arrayifried! Awesome video.

[@jesusrojo2418]

Muy bueno todo dave 👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿 muchas gracias por este vídeo

[@DaveRat]

excelente!

[@makemytheatre8280]

Great video! Good job there!

[@DaveRat]

Thank you!

[@jamiemiller6257]

Cool, that does put it into perspective.

[@DaveRat]

👍👍👍

[@rustydr1560]

Outstanding video!!!

[@torbjornandersson5997]

How does stacking speakers vertically solve the problem with horizontal spreading?

[@DaveRat]

It doesn't, what it does is "not create horizontal issues due to horizontally spaced or placed speakers" One wide, maximum not have the issues of multiple wide So a single speaker won't have any more or less horizontal issues than multiple vertically stacked speakers. As all the issues will be vertical

[@Aama_ralte]

Great vid 👌👏👍

[@bjtaudio]

I think the trick is with the those small mid bass drivers is to not use them above say 1.2Khz, If u check the response u will see its the top end that is adding and cancelling on the vertical, comb filter effect, with the low end the wave length is so long, the speakers sum as one. For the treble conventional 4"plate dome tweeters are useless as they are too far apart, long slot ribbons may work provided u can get the drivers within 1/2 an inch of each other almost impossible need specially made speakers. Cost a fortune too, the tweeters need to be as long as the vertical listening area so its huge so its like 5 feet or more long line of tweeter, almost continuous slot. The only other option is to give up and use a line source of mid bass drivers that only does low freq low and mid bass below 1Khz depend on size and spacing , and just 1 powerful tweeter at ear height. This is very effective, so u still get the bass and power and low freq and a point source for the treble.

[@EBMproductions1]

So what if you build a wide but tall design with multiple rows of two way speakers i.e 6.5 inch speaker(mid)+tweeters inside with a 90 degree sound dispersion zone with level 4 rows pointing below ear level 4ft one at 6ft(average mans height) and the last row elevated above that at an angle of 30 to 45 degrees would that not eliminate the loss of sound via movement or would it cause interference?

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, in general, speakers are not hyper beamy with defined coverage, even well designed horns have dispersion blurring and frequency dependant coverage patterns. When you place multiple speakers very close, the horizontal time offsets are very horizontally audible regardless of whether you complicate the array setup or not. Here is an article I wrote a while back that may be helpful in explaining more. www.prosoundweb.com/zoned-summed-line-a-discussion-of-array-structures-performance/

[@EBMproductions1]

@@DaveRat Thank you, your knowledge is very appreciated.

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@bachoyaryarashvili2793]

Man i love these videos. Rarely u get such an informative lessons

[@DaveRat]

Cool cool thank you!

[@bachoyaryarashvili2793]

@@DaveRat wow thanks for response 🤩

[@SonicologyRecords]

Great video Dave!

[@ambassadorkees]

Thanks for your biotechnical insights. Love your lab-approach.

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@ERMAV]

My gig tonight was at a venue we ALWAYS have sound problems in. Just absolutely trash. But tonight one of my qsc’s died and we only had one speaker. It was by far the BEST we have ever sounded there. Sometimes the fix is so simple.

[@DaveRat]

Ha! Good atuff

[@upilaperera]

you are a great teacher 🙏

[@Scottjcpp]

One of the best demos I’ve seen!

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and thank you!

[@matlepak9694]

that noise was soooo much louder than the speaking voice. Would have been better the other way around

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@shoeonbass5338]

killer vid. loved it. loved content!

[@6stringsandapick]

Thinking about size and scale of a line array. So many different venues and listening environments. Since I am listening to this on my computer, I was thinking, why not make a tiny line array system for my computer speakers? How would this differ from a line array at a large festival, or concert hall.

[@DaveRat]

I'd look cool, but most likely not sonically beneficial

[@EdwardTI]

Thank you for this. Currently involved in a project to replace a worship space audio system and many debates have been had between which of these two systems will be the proper solution.

[@DaveRat]

Cool cool

[@amgluk]

Ok, I'm a listener at the stadium. And I'm sitting at one point. What advantages has the line array compared with the point source for me in terms of my human hearing properties?

[@DaveRat]

great question. People use both line arrays and point source systems to attempt to cover a listening area as evenly and accurately as possible. Let's separate what people call point source systems into 2 categories, first you have the attempts to be true single point source systems like most home HiFi speakers, speakers on a tripod or one big PA speaker. Though none are perfect, the sound all comes from a fairly small single area. Secondly, you have what people refer to as point source systems but they are actually zonal coverage systems wherein multiple boxes attempt to cover various areas of the listening area and attempt to minimize interaction between the sound coming from the various boxes. Interestingly, line arrays at maximum splay angles attempt to do the exact same thing. Each enclosure covers a vertical sliver and attempts to smoothly transition to the next enclosure, basically a vertically stacked point source system. Where it gets interesting is in how the two design types attempt to deal with sound being quieter farther away and louder up close. For a point source system, they typically try and use narrow dispersion high volume enclosures to shoot far away and use wide dispersion lower volume enclosures to cover the up close areas. And then do the best they can to get the sound from these differing enclosure types to smoothly merge without issues in both the vertical and horizontal domains. With line arrays, they tend to use identical or near identical enclosures with wide horizontal dispersion and narrow vertical dispersion and point many enclosures far away and less enclosures up close in attempt to increase the volume sent far and reduce the volume sent close. The advantage of a quality line array is that if properly setup and configured, they can do an excellent job of getting the sound louder far away and not blasting the people up close, while maintaining a high fidelity sound. Additionally, since the volume levels at distance and up close are controlled by the angle between the boxes, it is possible to very accurately fine tune coverage while using only one or two types of boxes. So the same line enclosures could be used to cover a venue 100 feet deep or 300 feet deep just by adding boxes and altering angles. Conversely, a point source array tends to rely on box types so the boxes top cover a 100 ft deep venue would not as easily transition to 300 ft venue. Line arrays tend to infringe less on sight lines, point source systems tend to be horn loaded and offer more punch or a more impact-full sound. Quality line arrays tend to sound more like a home stereo, and tend to offer better stereo imaging. Line arrays are often challenged by venues with steep high vertical coverage, but excel in echoey venues where keeping sound reflections off the ceiling is important. Cool cool hope you enjoy the fun long answer!

[@squarejawpublishing]

You rock

[@JustPlayCorrectly]

I’m going to make the biggest array of speakers known to man

[@DaveRat]

And hold them in my hand

[@abielpangga6314]

Thoughts on danley sound labs? The jericho series.

[@DaveRat]

There are many ways of to design sound systems. You can build something loud and then strive to make it sound good, or you can build something that sounds good and then strive to make it loud. I personally prefer sound systems that are more like a bunch of studio monitors that have been optimized for work together to reach the volume levels and coverage needed for a rock show, than large horn systems that cover and reach high volumes and then attempt to be optimized for sound sound quality

[@abielpangga6314]

Dave Rat they claim that the jericho has a flat frequency response. I thought having a flat frequency response is good?

[@spinzaargledhill5401]

Well you will eliminate all phasing and cancelation by building a proper hi fi temple.

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@Joefess]

Dave, thanks for you videos. So glad I stumbled upon your channel.

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@dougaltolan3017]

Yer but...The reason we dont notice the errors from a vertical line array isnt because our hearing is more directional in the horizontal plane. Its because we walk around rooms as opposed to climbing the walls.

[@DaveRat]

Do you know that you, (or at least I and many others can hear a 1/10,000th of a second offset from ear to the other with headphones? Also, if the issues are because we wander, and not because of the difference in hearing resolution, why are home stereo speakers always left and right rather than up and down? Seems we could out one speaker near the ceiling and one on the floor and have amazing perfect summation and coverage of your living room with out all the left right comb filtering, right? Or Perhaps there is desirable and undesirable interference patterns with L/R stereo being a desirable interference, multiple horizontal closely located sources and undesirable and vertically displaced sources being just plain boring because we lack the auditory resolution to discern cool sounding stereo with vertically displaced sources. Thoughts?

[@dougaltolan3017]

@@DaveRat I'm not sure that we can hear the time difference between left and right signals as low as 0.1ms, as I understand it, the pickiest of recording artists will complain if they hear a delay in their foldback signal of anything greater than 25ms.Also there is Dolby surround encoding, being able to hear 0.1ms delay would make listening to the raw stereo signal very disorienting,yet the raw signal is an acceptable stereo image. I believe that the majority (if not all) of our stereo perception comes from pure signal level and that there is significant transmission through the skull, so a left ear signal arrives at the right ear via 2 paths,one through the air and one via the skull. Tone analysis of the delayed signal,compared to the raw would yield timing information.So rather than hearing a delay, it is perceived by tone differences. With vertically aligned stereo speakers you would loose some of the comb filter effect, a single source also produces this effect in anything other than an an-echoic chamber, just try playing 1kHz tone from 1 speaker and move about.Thats why audiophiles have a rigidly defined listening position and very simple room structure, the room can be equalized so the effect of the apparent comb filters is negated. But Vertically aligned speakers dont give us ant stereo information since, as you show, our ears are on the sides. Its all down to our evolution in a 2 dimensional world. We have little capabilities in up and down compared to left, right, front, back.its the same reason our eyes are left and right, not up and down.Movement (and position) in the vertical axis is not such a feature of our lives.

[@bandogbone3265]

DT - The point is not that a 100 usec delay can be perceived as two separate events, but that a 100 usec change between L and R can indeed be discerned due to the change in phase. I can hear edits in the best classical piano recordings due to this (even when others can't), e.g., when mics for alternate takes have not been repositioned accurately.

[@DaveRat]

@@dougaltolan3017 exactly, we are hyper sensitive to horizontal offsets and issues. Also, new vid on hearing .1ms uploading now

[@DaveRat]

@@bandogbone3265 agreed and on point. Vid on hearing .1ms uploading now

[@rustydr1560]

who's platinum record is that? What artist?

[@DaveRat]

Rage against the machine

[@gordonparma]

As always- very informative. Always learn something from your vids!

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Gordon

[@adiariel6726]

that's exactly why i like funktion one systems better than line array

[@DaveRat]

I have had the honor of not only visiting funktion one engineering lab, I've also had the honor of Tony Andres picking me up at the airport and riding with him in a car is even more fun than the thrill of a giant PA. I too like function one, just like I like band saw, and I like line arrays like I like a table saw, and small self powered boxes like I like screwdrivers and hammers

[@adiariel6726]

@@DaveRatall the line array systems that i got to hear sounds great with live music until you start playing music with fast transients like trance music then i can clearly hear phasing issues almost like someone put a delay on the high frequencies.. the funktion one system's sounds to me much more like a studio monitors when you sit in the sweet spot.. obviously it's not 100% perfect i guess it depends on you're preferences and the music played through the system, that's just my experience I'm not a professional.. although i did work with those systems here and there..

[@DaveRat]

A properly set up high quality line array by d&b, L-Acoustics or other high end systems, should not exhibit the "zipper" effect that you describe which would be due to poor vertical summing of the line array elements. A poorly set up or designed point source systems can also have numerous issues. I personally find that mixing live bands on horn loaded systems, requires a lot more work and has a less stable mix than mixing on systems designed around bass reflex enclosures, that said, I find the for electronic music, horn loaded systems can offer a more exciting sound. But covering large spaces with horn loaded non line array systems is very tough. It's all about finding the right tool for the job

[@silvioromualdo]

Great. Good explanations.

[@highwayempire1]

Line array question... let's say you have a L, R hang with 10 boxes per side. On the processors, you have the ability to trim the top half of the PA at +3 dB. Would this volume adjustment have a negative impact on phasing or would it not matter because each box hits a different part of the audience? (In theory)

[@DaveRat]

Volume shading is a debated topic. One angle is to volume shade to even out coverage. And other angle is the concept that a well designed system can use the shape of the array and number of boxes to offer a superior outcome than volume shading can achieve. The answer is somewhere between in my opinion. Fixed or limited angle arrays benefit from volume shading and ideally volume shading is not needed and can achieve superior results if you have the propper. gear

[@JohnnyRawks]

Cool! It's also fortunate that the human factor with line arrays align with the practical issues with respect to line array orientation. It would be much more difficult to fly a line array in the horizontal plane.

[@DaveRat]

Yes, line arrays are more compatible with gravity

[@RoadJournal]

Thanks man! simple demo, made a complex subject easy to understand!

[@SuperMadpom]

Great practical demo. thanks. I'm building Steve Decards (Decware) Tiny radials. Very interesting Omni directional speaker based on a tiny driver with an integral passive radiator. The driver fires upwards.and is giving some amazing results but the question is can this be scaled up by using a bigger driver passive radiator combination or multiples of the small drivers (four) firing up wards.

[@DaveRat]

Fun project! Large passive radiators can definitely add low end. But as with all in sound, everything comes with a cost. For passive radiators, the cost is time lag and resonances of the added low end. This may or may not be desirable depending on the application and personal preferences

[@stefanmplayer]

thanks for taking the time to explain this stuff to us dave :)

[@DaveRat]

👍👍👍

[@rbhis000]

Dave, it would be helpful to turn down the volume on the white noise. I couldn't hear you over it. I turned the volume up and down (wild swings, as noted before) but whatever the volume, I couldn't hear you over the noise.

[@DaveRat]

Cool cool, will work on that for future vids. Maybe I will add subtitles for this as well

[@rbhis000]

@@DaveRat Thanks, I look forward to it!

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@iglesiamontedesionoficial769]

Surprisingly deep and simple explanation. Great to see spanish and others lenguajes in the subs, much appreciated the effort, thank you Dave.

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and thank you Iglesia!

[@RenegadeHarlequin]

The lack of vertical perception however doesn't make you immune from the comb filtered sound hitting you from the interaction of the two boxes closest in vertical alignment to your ears though surely..Line array drivers are relatively small and packed in tight and generally hung a long way from the listener. The chance of being hit by just one driver or box seems unlikely. But then don't line arrays take 'advantage of combing to reinforce the sound..

[@DaveRat]

Line arrays work on the principle that a listener is equidistant from multiple sources which sum and add volume for listeners far away and up close relies on listeners only hearing HF from one enclosure, and a gradual transition between the far and near listening scenarios for the people located in the middle between far and near.

[@gregthomas7950]

Actual sound vs the way humans perceive sound is a science unto itself. Just record and then play back some room tone and you'll hear all the noise your brain has learned to ignore.

[@DaveRat]

Is it we have learned to ignore or is it that our recording and playback methods are just so flawed that we are incapable of capturing and replaying sound accurately?

[@drewthornton5440]

Loved this!

[@Elliott-Designs]

The vertical domain can be perfectly flat (no comb filtering), and even attenuated to an amount you want off-axis. Have a look at Horbach Keele filters and the design guide based around them. Really interesting stuff, I'm actually in the process of designing one that's -14dB vertically at 78° off axis. Tons of fun! Thanks for the video, it's a great demonstration on the effects of multiple driver comb filtering. Anytime I need to explain it to someone, I am sending them right here!

[@DaveRat]

Super cool Elliott! We can see much of the summation and coverage solutions and issues that we encounter with the main PA when designing sub arrays with prediction software

[@Elliott-Designs]

@@DaveRat Very nice! Those figures were just from mathematical models, I imagine your prediction software uses much of the same models. 👍

[@samuelsalins8309]

Phase Array speaker bose 802 good design....🔊 👍

[@Synthfidel]

Subscribed. What happens if you stagger splay them in the vertical?

[@DaveRat]

Pretty much the closer you get multiple independent sources that are reproducing the same signal, next to each other, the less interaction you will have from those multiple sources. Conversely if you get the source is far enough apart so they truly act as independent sources they will no longer some together but they will give you additional coverage but not additional volume. That said in the rat trap 5 system we used to alternate the high-frequency horns so they were staggered to reduce the vertical line array aspects in the eye frequency and mid frequency. The big challenge is to get the high frequency and the mids and lows to all operate in a similar fashion. If you get all of the high frequencies to operate in a line of rain getting the low frequencies to do so as well is advantageous

[@Durosai]

What is your opinion on the Danley concept of the synergy horn with multiple drivers feeding through the same horn?

[@DaveRat]

That helps solve some of the issues but introduces new ones. Like when EV did the MT4 with quad HF on a single horn.

[@Durosai]

Dave Rat what kind of issues?

[@DaveRat]

@@Durosai hmmm, well with the EV MT4, EAW 750 and similar designs where multiple drivers are all combined into a single flare, there is nothing to stop the sound of one driver from going back down the throat or physically modulating the cone of another driver. What do you think happens to a fragile aluminum or titanium ultra lightweight high performance horn diaphragm when placed right next to and inside a high pressure low and mid horn chamber? High levels of LF energy travelling back down the throat of a horn driver not only create an audible blurring of HF, I have done testing where I have shattered HF diaphragms in drivers that were not even plugged in, by using the output of the LF drivers. Also, the more complex the path that sound travels in order to achieve a goal, like summation or dispersion for example, the result of the more complex sound path results in other compromises. Balancing sound quality, max volume, coverage, weight, size, cost, aesthetics, ergonomics and scalability while minimizing sight line issues with rapid deployment times is a complex adventure indeed. Like everything in life, rarely can you solve one issue with out creating others. Never believe anyone that claims to solve all

[@FOH3663]

@@DaveRat Interesting regarding the diaphragm fragility. Granted, I'm not immersed in the pro-audio world these days, so I'm not aware of it occurring to the Danleys in the field. Are there reports of this? Regarding the LF modulation of the HF, that would be discernable/measurable, thereby addressable ... no? Always wanting to learn more.

[@DaveRat]

@@FOH3663 the question isn't whether it occurs with the danley or other systems, the question is whether the impact is discernable, as you mention. Based on my work as a consultant for manufacturers and my experience, I have found that diaphragm modulation can be quite audible, occurs in numerous designs and is rarely measured or acknowledged. I was able to measure and demonstrate it's audibility. Designs where low frequency drivers are sharing a horn throat with HF drivers tend to be most suceptable, though even high density baffle reflex designs can have audible issues at high levels. But, like all of the assets and issues with the various designs, they all must be taken in context of the magnitude and impact upon the desired application

[@slumdogjoe]

What a brilliant explanation! Especially why it's so effective from a human listening perspective.

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@josefbuckland]

G’day from Australia. Get a rode broadcaster mic made here in OZ as always solid advice your the clarity when I’m never sure if I believe all that Paul from PS AUDIO delivers. And a heads up for your help with helping us select the right FOH gear for our crew best money and advice ever spent you are the royalty like Alice cooper is to the artists you are the royalty to the gearslutz lol. Line array has come along way and interesting it’s use now in micro type DJ setups and or indeed hifi like McIntosh’s high end speakers. Anywho party on stay safe chat soon.

[@DaveRat]

Awesome, thank you and I can't wait to get back to Oz!

[@dantonliam]

Wish I knew what you were saying over the pink noise….lol

[@wassimchiha2589]

interesting ..

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@M1Zo1d]

Love it. Not enough sound engineers talking about the human factor!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙

[@codysifford5470]

How am I hearing stereo content from 1 microphone?

[@DaveRat]

Its a stereo mic

[@kennyray116C]

Great video! How can I get more info on the SuperSub you build and can I power it with a dedicated K10 or K20?

[@DaveRat]

Its self powered and will release more info when available, thank you!

[@pearldrumsets]

Hey dave does the same method apply to subs as well? Is it less noticeable using them?

[@DaveRat]

Of the distance apart is small compared to the wavelength, the separate sources begin to act like they are the same source. So the transitions between the seperate sources can go away for lower frequencies

[@pearldrumsets]

Do you have a email i have further questions with my setup for my company

[@chrisrobinson8163]

It seems like concert sound took a shit with line array...

[@DaveRat]

As someone involved with the concert sound industry and sound reinforcement for 40 years, I can honestly say, even crap sounding modern concerts sound so much better now than they did back then, it is mind boggling. Every aspect from amps, speakers, processors, predictive measurements, sound coverage and on and on are so vastly superior now, it's like comparing a 12" black and white tv from the 60s to a modern 60" flat screen and saying, TV has really gone to shit.

[@chrisrobinson8163]

Been to several shows you were involved in sound was excellent, I'm not an expert on concert sound, it's a given gear is a million times better now and I suppose I saw a few terrible sounding gigs with the pencil p.a. awhile back then caught some gigs with a real pro driving an x array or prism rig that was sounding amazing, of course seen many line array driven shows sound great too, obviously a lot of variables, and I dont know shit