Music Chat: Conductors vs. Orchestras--Who Deserves the Credit?

[@RichardGreen422]

You prompt three thoughts: (1) One current conductor who really puts her stamp on orchestras is Susanna Mälkki. I have heard her with the Concertgebouw and the LA Phil, and she makes them sound different, and by that, I mean in a good way. When she conducts here in LA, the orchestra has a combination of transparency and warmth that is unique. (2) I have long thought Seiji Ozawa has been underrated. Your perceptive thoughts about pickup orchestras reinforce that view. The Saito Kinen Orchestra very much has a consistent, and wonderful, sound, and so is testimony to Ozawa's magnificence. (3) An obvious point, but the less professional is the ensemble, the more important is the conductor. My high school choral conductor was not very good, and so my high school chorus did not sound good (even though we had some good singers). My daughters' high school choral conductor, Mr. Frezzo, is a wonderful musician, and he got miracles out of his kids. He made me realize that listening to a well-trained amateur group at the limits of its ability can sometimes be more thrilling than listening to the pros.

[@davidwyatt850]

I'd add, on point 3, something that others have mentioned in other comments- what the conductor needs to bring to some of these bands is the eye for important details and the sound balancing to go with it - otherwise you get a mush of sound instead of the important detail. Eliciting a good performance is as much about making sure the audience can hear what matters, as it is about ensuring the interpretation is good.

[@pianomaly9]

In University, had a choral conducting class with Howard Swan, who was a legend in the field at one time. We students were flapping and dancing in front of the class straining to get results, the latter sounding like a herd of goats. Swan would interrupt, step in front, slightly raise an arm or finger and make us sound like a choir of angels.

[@timyork6150]

Thanks for that fascinating talk. In my time of listening to music, two illustrations of the effect of conductors stand out. In my formative years, I went to a lot of concerts with the Liverpool Philharmonic, which in those days (the 50s and early 60s) was a mediocre ensemble. However, their sound was transformed during a visit of Rudolf Kempe with a much firmer bass line and more singing strings. The other such experience was a Mozart concert with Murray Perahia, the English Chamber Orchestra and no conductor in the 80s. The concert started with a Divertimento which was competently played but, in the absence of Perahia, without personality. There followed a concerto (I forget which) and from the opening introduction the orchestra played with a lot more spring and vitality under Perahia's very discreet direction from the piano. These two cases differed somewhat though; the ECO knew Perahia well but IIRC that was Kempe's first appearance in Liverpool. Clearly the ability for a conductor to achieve a quick impact on an orchestra depends on his/her technique. Furtwängler and the post-war Klemperer were notoriously difficult to follow and achieved their most remarkable results with orchestras which knew them well, the BPO and VPO with the former and the Philharmonia with the latter. Furtwängler did, however, make some outstanding recordings with the Philharmonia which is in part a tribute to their adaptability. Walter Legge is reported to have said "I want an orchestra with style not A Style". I can't help being sceptical about the modern craze for under 30 conductors however talented, especially flying Finns. What can they contribute to a body of seasoned musicians other than a few gimmicks and some marketing power?

[@hendriphile]

A member of the NYPO (not particularly known for their lush sound), describing a rehearsal with Ormandy for the live performance of the Rach Third Concerto with Horowitz, said something like, “Within 20 minutes he had us sounding like the Philadelphia Orchestra.” A magazine critic reviewing Stokowski’s recording of the Frank Symphony made a similar remark along the lines of, “He has the Hilversum Radio Orchestra sounding like the Philadelphia Orchestra.“ Wizards indeed.

[@classicalperformances8777]

It is not the "kids" fault. And it behooves agents' laziness and convenience to only represent the photogenic and gullible and easy to sign youths(not to mention easy to replace)I am shocked that orchestras indulge the little Napoleons' delusions of grandeur..😢

[@michaelmoore4369]

As a conductor of community and school orchestras, I found this very insightful. Thank you.

[@chrismoule7242]

As a player in community and school orchestras - but also as an occasional conductor - so do I.

[@classicalperformances8777]

That s what I like about Dave's videos. He does give people food for thought and discussion. Even if I often disagree with him

[@chrismoule7242]

2:49 - having played in school/university/community orchestras, with 55 years of experience, I can categorically state that a good 90% of string players in those orchestras do not have a rhythmical bone in their bodies, and around the same percentage do not watch either their section leader or their conductor enough. I have never played in any orchestra where all the strings could differentiate between duplet dotted quaver/semiquaver and triplet quaver/semiquaver over more than about three bars - the former inevitably degenerated into the latter.

[@joncheskin]

The one conductor in my memory that seemed to make a substantial difference to an orchestra was Georg Solti. I lived in Chicago in the 1980s and 90s, and it seemed to me that there was a palpable difference in the sound and spirit of the orchestra when he conducted it, as opposed to a guest conductor. It seemed to me like Solti was more than just their conductor, he was very much their artistic heart and soul at the time.

[@kingconcerto5860]

Great topic!

[@GingerIndiana]

Such an interesting video as always, thank you! I remember attending a rehearsal with Kurt Masur and a university orchestra (of a very good level) and he could change the sound of the orchestra in an impressive PPP in no time... 😮 But one of my friends who is a conductor had said that the job of the conductor is to prepare the orchestra for the concert, not to conduct on the day which often wasn't really necessary (just as you said!). Anyway as a pianist I often regretted not having more opportunities to play within an orchestra because this is an amazing experience (I did it for Chostakovitch 2nd symphony and Sleeping Beauty Ballet but that's it and I loved it.). Orchestra members make a terrific work.

[@richardpollak8084]

So, what is the difference between an orchestra and a bull?? With the bull, the horns are in front….

[@ExxylcrothEagle]

Hahhaah. I think R Strauss was giving conducting advice and he said something like "don't even look at the brass section. It only encourages them" 😂

[@adamfrye246]

Orchestral horns can be so loud that they sound like they are in the front matador.

[@jonobester5817]

I've heard this one before, but I think you don't have it quite right. let me try to remember..

[@bbailey7818]

Thanks for a very stimulating and enlightening discussion. Beecham received raves in NYC around 1941 when he conducted a scratch WPA orchestra and, so the critics said, made it sound like the NY Philharmonic. Beecham invariably traveled with his own marked scores and parts and everything he conducted with the group was his standard rep from Haydn to Sibelius and Delius. It must have saved a lot of time. When his later postwar RPO was engaged to conduct at Glyndebourne he raged at what (he considered) the other conductors there had done to his orchestra. "Where is my sound?!" and worked like the devil to get it back. When Toscanini returned to the NY Philharmonic after over five years absence in 1942, those who heard rehearsals and the concerts marveled that he got them to play with the transparent sound and hair trigger precision with which he'd left them in 1936 and hadn't been heard from them in half a decade; and how quickly he (and they) achieved it. (P.S. In his one surviving performance of Bolero, Toscanini does make a striking rall. at the change of key! The orchestra really did have to pay attention. So much for "he always played what the score tells him;" though don't bring up his somewhat faster tempo--he was still slower than Paray and Munch.)

[@Kije.Jekyll]

This was so interesting thank you!

[@leestamm3187]

Very good points regarding the current era, and different level ensembles. I have observed quality conductors markedly lift the performance level of a lower tier orchestra. Aross the history of the medium, I don't think there is any doubt that a great conductor can make a difference in the performance of even the best orchestra. A number of high level classical musicians have affirmed that when I asked them about it. I think a great performance is a meeting of minds between the musicians and the conductor in realizing and expressing his/her interpretative vision. A great conductor has the ability to create that symbiosis, with the real work done in rehearsal, of course. And of course high level orchestras can play familiar pieces almost by rote, but that doesn't guarantee a great performance. I think that illustrates your point about modern jetset conductors, who get competent, but seldom great results with experienced orchestras.

[@BariTone7-v5r]

Loved this chat and love the topic. I wonder if there are any ensembles anywhere that have the handprints and finger marks of a conductor who has molded the group into something unique....I cannot think of anyone or group that fits that description other than some famous choral groups and maybe top notch conservatory or university groups who are with the same conductor all the time. Guessing maybe HvK was the closest to that, Ormandy in Philly, and a few others whose personal conductor stamp really was audible. I love the old talk by Beecham where he scoffs at the young conductor who gets up in front of a group of players twice their age and presumes to dictate to them what Brahms is all about... Fascinating subject.

[@joshualekwa6064]

Hi Dave, thanks for an interesting and insightful chat. Would you consider talking about the characteristic sounds of different orchestras? I have some notion of Czech winds, French orchestras with a lean, unblended sound - but I really don't know a lot more than that. Maybe this was the case decades ago but it is no longer relevant? If you've already covered this, my apologies. It's a topic I'd love to hear your thoughts about. Or perhaps a series of talks about recordings that particularly showcase orchestras at their most distinctive?

[@jppitman1]

One take-away from a conductor history video which was suggested to me a few years ago was this: a musician (maybe a percussionist) from a well-known orchestra said that an associate conductor was conducting a rehearsal one day. Things were going along normally, but then the character of the orchestra`s style and sound suddenly changed. The musician looked up to see what effected the change and noticed the main conductor had just entered the concert hall. Those steeped in nuance KNOW it.

[@ruramikael]

Svetlanov was very popular in Stockholm some 25 years ago.

[@petejilka968]

Having been a music student in Cleveland back in in the '80s, half the education was attending Cleveland Orchestra concerts every Saturday evening. But, as a friend likes to say, we were very lucky to have been in Cleveland when most of the orchestra was hired by George Szell...

[@andy_pandy88]

This of course raises the point of successful partnerships between conductors and orchestras: e.g Honeck and Pittsburgh, Fischer and Budapest (not to mention Karajan/Berlin, Klemperer/Philharmonia etc) where equal credit can be given for the performance

[@pauldrapiewski6761]

I will say that when I heard Nathalie Stuzmann conduct (twice) the Minnesota Orchestra it really sounded different - the orchestra was on fire like I have never heard before. Just watching her, you know you were experiencing something unique.

[@classicalperformances8777]

Yes,lack of technique does put fire under the musician s chairs. Glad tiu enjoyed the concerts though

[@pauldrapiewski6761]

I am not sure what you are saying. Stuzmann has no technique? What is your basis for that? Whoever deserves the credit I don't know, but the performances of the Pathetique and Brahms 2 were very impressive. @@classicalperformances8777

[@gustav-yb3qb]

Hi Dave, as you rigthly point out, there`s a lot of nuance involved in how a performance turns out. The quality of the Musicians, the perception and experience of the conductor, the number of rehearsals, the tempi, the accents, how often the orchestra played a certain piece, the chemistry etc.etc...of course seasoned players in a professional orchestra know how to play a beethoven symphony and the conductor, who flew in shortly before the concert will not have a major influence....on the other hand a guy like Currentzis bellowing at the orchestra and imposing strange intellectual thoughts on the whole thing DOES make a difference...in the end it comes down to individual taste, you hear certain pieces from different orchestras, conductors, time periods and choose what you like....good or bad is often clearly recognizable - mostly in the playing or conducting...well, and often it`s not..and you still like or dislike recordings / performances mainly from your personal emotion or experience.....finally: i heard fantastic recordings with complete unknown orchestras, conductors and lots of bad and boring ones by the well known stars, so everyone should keep on listening and find out for themselves.....

[@dsammut8831]

... Couldn't agree more, Dave!

[@ronaldbwoodall2628]

Say what you will, I've experienced the changes in the sound of the boston so from the emphasis toward the lush strings of koussevitzky, to the gallic elan of munch, to the generalized, somewhat characterless sound that leinsdorf managed to impose upon it. Or was that all just products of my imagination?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No, but those conductors spent many years with the same ensemble, day in, day out, which is very different from what goes on today.

[@bbailey7818]

That glow from within of the Boston strings under Koussevitzky was lost soon after he was gone.

[@rogergersbach3300]

Hi David, off topic maybe but, please, are you going to review the new Roman Trilogy, Orchestra Sinfonica di Torino della RAI, Robert Trevino, who seems to get the best out of the orchestras he conducts. I am intending to get this shortly, because I like what I am hearing, even though they are small sound samples.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Already done, a while ago.

[@kevingabriel7250]

Dave: Many years ago, during the intermission of a BSO broadcast, an conductor (I think it was Barenboim but I am not positive) complained that "every orchestra Eugene Ormandy conducts sounds like a Eugene Ormandy orchestra." This was as opposed to him. He claimed he let every orchestra sound like itself, whatever that was. My feeling is how can a good conductor not change the way an orchestra plays? Anyway, if this was true of Ormandy, he must have been doing something!

[@ud-]

I think that modern day conductors are afraid to get to the over-interpretation level so they tend to make plain versions/recordings of musical repertoire what results in weak personality over the orchestra and yes in this situation the orchestra have all the credit for doing what they are supposed to do but if anybody listens to older conducters such as Furtwängler,Klemperer,Böhm or Stokowski (as you said) you will be able to hear their touch the real interpretation and have fun listening to different versions. In the end even the big names wouldn't be what they are without a good orchestra (the orchestra has the major roll)

[@fromrjwithlove9819]

I would love to see a video about the best USSR state symphony recordings (in your opinion)!

[@Bachback]

On a related subject, I vaguely recall Mr. Hurwitz once proposing the fun idea of a conductor starting a performance and then walking away. The audience would then find out what the orchestra was capable of playing on its own when performing Mozart 41, Beethoven 5, or some other piece well known by the players. Would the orchestra fall apart, rise to the occasion, or muddle through?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

They wouldn't muddle at all.

[@orenlurie6422]

doesn't this happen all the time? orchestra ignoring conductor

[@reamartin6458]

More and more so…the current jet setters add nothing but vanity

[@martinhaub6828]

I heard the Cleveland Orchestra on tour back in '76. As an encore, Maazel came out and started a very quick performance of the overture to Russlan & Lyudmilla. After a few bars he stepped off the podium and left the stage letting the audience realize that this was one great orchestra and the conductor an annoying necessity.

[@classicalperformances8777]

They tried it in the 18th century and it didn't work. It would especially not work with pieces written after the Berlioz era

[@classicalperformances8777]

All i want from a conductor is a deep and personal understanding of the works and the technique to translate that understanding to just about any orchestra, so in their turn they can transmit it to the audience. "Teaching" an orchesta how to play together is unecessary with a good technique. Orchestras today are fabulous bands indeed, but saying they dont need a conductor is like saying that a great piano doesnt need a pianist

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No it's not. A piano doesn't play itself.

[@classicalperformances8777]

@DavesClassicalGuide using certain mechanisms the keys of a piano can technically "play" on their own a piece of music. I still would rather hear Sokolov s interpretations. The many musicians forming the instrument called an orchestra can read and play their parts on their own. Technically.(though unless it's a tiny orchestra they won't play together)That reading, even if everyone played together evee6 note,every rest,every punctuation mark, it would still be a very dead piece of music, mechanical. Even a star studded movie needs a director. The real problem these days more than ever is that nobody seems to understand what conducting is, who a real conductor is and who isn't. And that is not a subjective matter for debate. The many movie stars air-conducting in film nowadays add to the confusion regarding the conductors job.

[@catfdljws]

ok, i'm gonna add this here just 'cause it is a recent post and maybe you'll pay attention here more than past posts - But I'm curious to see a bit of your reviews or thoughts about some of the classical educational/documentary videos (DVDs) out there - e.g., MTT's Keeping Score, Rattle's Leaving Home, Bernstein's YPC and the Harvard Lectures ("The Unanswered Question"), and any others you might recommend.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Sorry, I'm not interested.

[@matthewbbenton]

Carlos Kleiber wrote in one of his letters that when he did decide to conduct, “it has to be a group that will play nicely any old how - I mean, sort of in spite of me, kinda. If anything, I’m good at not getting in the way, mostly.” (From Charles Barber’s book “Corresponding with Carlos”)

[@josephromance3908]

Would love to hear more specifics on Szell on this question. You mention the corporate sound of Cleveland. But didn't Szell sort of create that? (I think you suggest. Is that fair?)

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, it's fair. But they've maintained it ever since.

[@josephromance3908]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Yes! Now can someone make a Dohnányi box?!?!?!

[@adamfrye246]

A music professor told me one time that players can intentionally make mistakes to see if the conductor will catch it.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

It happens.

[@classicalperformances8777]

Only those who don't know how conducting works

[@Jasper_the_Cat]

I went to a performance of Shostakovich's 5th a few months ago, and it was wonderful and moving as one would expect. But with it being a symphony I know really well, there were bits here and there that were sort of lost in the mix of sound- and I had seats which I believe would be considered very good for audio quality. But it makes me wonder- what level of responsibility does a conductor or orchestra have over that sort of thing- more related to acoustics? I don't suppose they do their rehearsals in the actual venue - or do they? I mean, would an orchestra be able to do a 'sound-check' ahead of time in the venue? And if so, does the person at the sound boards play a significant role? I'm wondering the same about recordings? Bad mic placements, poor audio mixing, etc? I could see this potentially affecting dynamics, muddiness, etc.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, they rehearse in the actual concert hall, although it can sound very different when empty. Most conductors I have worked with adjust their interpretation to the acoustic, and many will listen in rehearsal from different spots in the hall to see how it sounds

[@Jasper_the_Cat]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks so much for taking the time to respond and share your knowledge! This is very interesting!

[@classicalperformances8777]

The famous conductors leverage their celebrity to get a decent deal, like rehearsing in he same hall rhe concert takes place and have a fair amount of rehearsals.a no name conductor must ha e insane skills and experience , as you never get remotely decent conditions like the ones I described above. And if it is an opera...forget it. No rehearsals and never the same musicians or even singers playing in the same production.😢

[@MaggiMagg1]

Thanks, Dave, great as usual. I'm very much interested in orchestral sound and the difference in sound between (top) orchestras. I remember reading in Gramophone a bad tempered review of a Wagner album from Berlin (under Abbado) were the critic claimed that the BPO sounded like an American orchestra and it wasn’t a compliment. Is the difference in sound between orchestras become less in the past years (or decades)?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, but that raises another interesting question: Is it because the second-tier ensembles got better or the first tier ensembles got worse (or less interesting)?

[@MaggiMagg1]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I'd guess second-tier orchestras have got better and the best orchestras less interesting due to less individualistic conducting (much of which sounds the same). But I'm no expert. However, where I live, our orchestra can sound exellent if the conductor is decent (and respected by the musicians) and not very good if the conductor is not good (and not respected), so second tier for sure.

[@brianjacobson297]

At the professional level, I think more credit should go to the musicians. I'm well aware of the standards musicians have to meet to even be invited to audition. At the non professional level, however, like college or community, the conductor should know the average skill level of their players and not be overly ambitious.

[@hannahj8910]

I would be remiss to not mention that Karajan certainly was able to leave his personal stamp on any piece of music! Comparing his work to that of other recordings is night and day.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Sometimes.

[@MrYoumitube]

I give the Orchestra 70% of the credit & 30% to the conductor for organizing. Note the orchestra has to divide the credit with the number of performers while there is only a single conductor.

[@clementewerner]

I wonder if the orchestral performance is affected by players who don't like the music? When Georg Solti conducted the UK Premiere of Schoenberg's Moses und Aron at Covent Garden in 1965, one of the players told the press 'I don't know why anyone would want to listen to it' -does it make a difference to the sound? Re Svetlanov: perhaps the Russians just don't 'get' Elgar?

[@bbailey7818]

Ralph Shapey wrote a piece that the NY Philharmonic found impossible to play and Mitropoulos, of all people, to conduct. "Why? Why must you write so difficult?" conductor Dmitri Mitropoulos once asked Shapey when attempting to conduct the composer's Challenge: The Family Of Man. "This is nothing," Shapey replied. He pushed Mitropoulos aside and attempted - unsuccessfully - to conduct the piece himself. He said he wrote it that way because "players always want to add downbeats to everything," preumably something he wanted to avoid. One of the players replied that professionals don't play that way. Had Shapey rebarred or renotated it, it wouldn't have happened.

[@clementewerner]

Thanks for your reply. Never heard of Shapey, so about to find out...

[@pianomaly9]

Captain Obvious here, but one thing that stuck with me from conducting class is that the conductor must be fractionally AHEAD of the orchestra at all times. Respect for the hapless would be maestro goes down the commode when the orchestra is leading HIM/HER and they don't even realize it.

[@Otorres1]

The Chicago Symphony Orchestra is certainly an ensemble that can play anything without too much assistance, but the long partnership with Riccardo Muti has changed its sound. Choosing new players, performing new repertoire (in this case, a lot more Italian opera), and asking for a more lyrical, melodic sound from the strings has given the CSO a new tonal profile.

[@eddihaskell]

Any idea on who is going to replace Muti?

[@Otorres1]

@@eddihaskell They seem to be taking their sweet time. I couldn't tell you the direction they're going in either.

[@matthewweflen]

​@@eddihaskellIf anyone knows, that person or persons are keeping it really hush-hush. Some people seem to think Marin Alsop had the inside track because she a "name," a woman, and she is in town for Ravinia already. But who knows.

[@Warp75]

You said the other week Opera is all about the singers & not the conductor, but then you picked Abbado’s best recording as his Simon Boccanegra.

[@Warp75]

& Dave I’m not trying to be a smart arse I am just a tad confused

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

In general, that's true, but of course a conductor can make a difference if he has an especially strong conception of the piece. Most of the time, not, and even if the conductor DOES have a fabulous, wonderful, amazing conception of the piece it won't matter a bit if the singing is bad.

[@Warp75]

@@DavesClassicalGuide If I was to pick a Karajan recording from what I know It would be one of his opera recordings, but that’s me. Thanks for the reply

[@classicalperformances8777]

​@DavesClassicalGuide and enough rehearsals. In my observation, this makes or breaks an opera performance-recording

[@donaldhouse9736]

I've wondered about these tales of conductors whose careers were launched when they had to step in at the last minute (e.g. Bernstein for, I think, Bruno Walter). It seems to me they had even less of a chance to imprint their will on the orchestras. What are your thought on this? Mythological press fodder?

[@stephengailey2400]

The conductors job is to get 30-70 individuals to play with a unified voice because otherwise they would speak with their own voices.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Um, no.

[@MrYoumitube]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Dave, you crack me up!