Linux vs Windows Round 1: Open Source vs Proprietary - From a Retired Microsoft Dev

[@nngnnadas]

Do you start from round 1 or 0? Dave, a programmer: Yes.

[@necro_nemesis]

I'm still trying to figure out whether he's sequenced these questions using big or little endian.

[@fungiug]

@@necro_nemesis unless he has more than 255 episodes, I think "Yes" is still the correct answer.

[@treyquattro]

actually the answer is "true" (quotes for emphasis, not because the answer is a string (or rather, a const char array))

[@glasser2819]

DavePl is a code sergeant... his original source contribution is everywhere... hard to match!! 🤗

[@VenturiLife]

@@fungiug 65,536

[@danabooth5859]

Re: usability, one thing that annoys me about windows these day is the mish-mash of configuration tools. The old control panel is still available, or you can goto settings with the windows 8 look, but there's no guarantee that you'll find what you're looking for, and very few people know about godmode

[@DavesGarage]

The Control Panel is indeed a mess. They should finish moving all the UI to the new direction!

[@kquote03]

@@DavesGarage on the contrary, I would love to see someone make a windows 10 spin where everything is still the same windows vista/7 UI just with an updated flat theme.

[@cromulence]

@@DavesGarage The control panel / settings thing ticks me off. Even if it were a relatively hidden registry setting, I wish that there was a way to just run W10 in a classic mode with reduced (or completely disabled) UWP stuff. And stop bundling games with the freakin Pro SKU of Windows!

[@RequiosWoW]

What's equally frustrating about that situation is I feel the older config tools are actually better.

[@cromulence]

@@RequiosWoW absolutely agree.

[@amadensor]

One thing you missed on upgrades. For Windows it includes only the os. For most Linux distributions, all of the applications are updated at the same time, using the same tools, even if they are from multiple vendors.

[@hammadahmad100]

@@TheGreyLineMatters Are you talking about some tool to update all software installed on Windows? Well, I’ve tried some but none of them are as robust as DEB or even the SNAP distribution systems.

[@hammadahmad100]

@@TheGreyLineMatters ​ @Mindflayer Sorry. Couldn't read the whole post. And yes, I'm a life long Linux user who won't just switch from Linux to Windows (or Mac) by just an online opinion. But I value opinion because of the sake of knowledge and I think the biggest flaw in PC based Windows OSes is the lack of package management. So if anyone has knowledge of a tool or way to make it better, by all means, please do share.

[@davidturcotte831]

​@@TheGreyLineMatters What does your ability to install Windows quickly have to do with updating every package on your system, including browsers, word processors, programming software, audio processing software, video editing software, games, and all other software on the system including the system itself with a single button click or terminal command? One is installing an OS (your comment). The other is updating everything to the newest version with the same software (the content to which you replied). Non sequitur.

[@mcp121]

Not strictly true - Microsoft update can update other Microsoft products like office, Skype, Edge etc..

[@durragas4671]

​@@hammadahmad100this comment pointed out to me that there's many people who would jump from windows to Linux but so far I don't know anyone who jumped from Linux to Windows.

[@frankenberry9670]

Just watched this ( again ) and remembered a point I forgot to make. While compiling Linux does produce a monolithic kernel it is one that you can produce after selecting what you want to include. It is not one size fits all, you can tailor what code is included in a lot of ways. That's one of the reasons versions run on so many different hardware platforms and configurations. I still remember my initial reaction to running Linux for the first time on my then current 486, "This is like DOS ... on steroids ... for adults ... sort of". I still use Windows almost daily, but only when I have to.

[@andykeys74]

I only use windowe when I'm getting paid. 😂

[@szr8]

There are also kernel modules, so not everything needs to be compiled directly into the kernel. Modern systems for quite some time have had this modularity.

[@frankenberry9670]

@@szr8 I must admit that the term monolithic kernel is not exactly accurate for either Linux, Windows or any number of other OSs. Dynamically loadable modules, for the OS and regular applications, has been a thing for quite some time. Linux does allow a lot of control over what is in the kernel, what is dynamically loadable and what isn't present at all. Windows does to a certain extent but not to the same degree. Its both good and bad. Sometimes finding and configuring that one module you need is a real pain, other times getting everything compiled and running on your exact hardware is a lot of fun. To each their own.

[@nobiado484]

The interesting thing about compiling your own kernel or other software is that you can dramatically reduce the attack surface available for malicious parties when you leave out code that you'll never use in your particular system.

[@electronicsacademy2D2E29]

@@andykeys74 So true 😄

[@DavesGarage]

Thought I'd try a Premiere, since I'm here live anyway. Let me know if this is a good idea or if it somehow messes up folks with KZbin Red, or forces you to watch ads, etc. I don't want to inconvenience folks!

[@Checker8763]

For my first Premiere I tried, there were no ads and I had good experience. Looking forward to the other showdowns :)

[@PressThatButton]

I am a KZbin Premium subscriber and did not see any ads.

[@immoloism]

@ozone o3 It's from Google so it will be discontinued. It was made open source last year which by reports was to protect it from never getting used by anyone.

[@immoloism]

@ozone o3 Don't get me wrong Google have done some good things however everyone knows not to rely on them. Fuchsia OS became irrelevant the second the Oracle lawsuit was settled in my eyes and I can't remember the last article I've seen on the project.

[@paulgray1318]

I don't mind Ad's - choice is always good if you can avoid making a decision and give the users that choice. What are your thoughts upon the BSD vs Linux aspect? Also - systemd - thoughts?

[@lloydcollins6337]

Redhat, Ubuntu and suse all supply paid support for Linux so I think that's a tie

[@NoName-xy9ij]

And they also hire people to review and commit to the source code.

[@hi_im_kent]

Fedora gang

[@Toxicity1987]

Yup, and the RedHat Documentation is well made and professional.

[@nickwallette6201]

I thought this and the security of the source were the most tragically overlooked aspects of this competition. I know it's all in good fun, and just the opinion of the author, etc.. but... I think it does deserve correcting: You can buy support. I'm sure, for the right price, you could hire Linus to sit next to you and help you debug your code. Also, the quality of that support is going to vary. I've called Microsoft for help on server stuff and had them spin in circles for weeks with no idea how a feature works. So, there are different levels of value associated with that purchased support. And, with so many people counting on the availability, security, and stability of the Linux kernel, you better believe it's getting code reviews.

[@jasonkaiser1179]

@@nickwallette6201 If I want someone to sit next to me, yell and call me an idiot while i'm coding and debugging ill just ask my gf :)

[@ethanbroussard]

Reading the data collection part of the windows 10 eula was enough to convince me to switch to linux.

[@gamingnubs7628]

I dont see why this is a problem, they improve the OS thanks to these data collections. Its not like they literally use your webcam and microfone without your permission.

[@ethanbroussard]

@@gamingnubs7628 go read it yourself. They give you bs about caring about your personal data then explain how they sell it to 3rd party companies. Oh and windows 10 has a keylogger in it too that tracks every keystroke and sends it to Microsoft.

[@gamingnubs7628]

@@ethanbroussard well obviously it needs these things for safety reasons. The keylogger makes sense actually, it can be used to prevent or warn of possible threats irl or to companies because it sees the written words using said keylogger. Eitherway im fine using windows because its way more userfriendly.

[@ethanbroussard]

@@gamingnubs7628 you literally just tried to convince me that a giant company uses your personal data for the benefit of you and not itself. Microsoft steals your personal information, makes it hard if not impossible to disable, tries to cover up what they do with it and you're telling me you think they dont have their own best interest at heart? Also theres plenty of user friendly linux distros like linux mint and ubuntu, you dont have to learn a single terminal command to use them

[@gamingnubs7628]

@@ethanbroussard im not saying that they dont have their own intents in there, but its not like they actively sell your personal information to random folk on the dark web. Also ive tried linux, i really just dont enjoy how it functions, windows feels cleaner to me.

[@Kedvespatikus]

Regarding the UI: the fact you have multiple choices of desktop environments on Linux is an advantage for me. This is not an option in Windows. So in my case that point goes to Linux, making the first round score 6:3.

[@softcolly8753]

Indeed, with XFCE, I can have something like Windows 98, way more usable than desktops trying to be tablets and loads of stupid shit that I neither want or need. And it tends t be faster than the more "modern" options.

[@saturnFIV3]

KDE and Gnome, especially Gnome are very close to windows polish. Other DEs, while theres a lot to love about them aren't nearly as feature complete.

[@softcolly8753]

@@saturnFIV3 what am I missing with XFC compared to those? Works fine for me.

[@saturnFIV3]

@@softcolly8753 I quite like XFCE as well, but for a new user not very familiar with Linux, getting Xfce to look how you want is a bit more involved. For better or worse what you see is what you get with Gnome. KDE makes it very easy to modify your desktop without doing anything complicated.

[@UNSCPILOT]

Personally KDE and XFCE might be my favorites to use as a ex-windows user but knowing there are more interesting options available to experiment with is always fun. The ease of UI element customization on Linux is also incredible, libraries of easy to apply Icon packs, mouse pointers, even window styles, even being able to edit window button positions quickly and easily, and that's barely scraping the surface just as a casual user. Also being able to update everything with a simple button click or terminal command without having to scour the internet and being able to do it on demand when I'm ready instead of being forced in the middle of a task is incredibly useful and saves a lot of frustration with sudden forced restarts that I was in no way ready for or tolerant of while working on a project or playing a game

[@claudiu7909]

Windows forums Me: I have this problem Them: *Update your system* Me: but it broke after the last update Them: *Your updates must be up to date*

[@realtimestatic]

Yeah I have found the Linux community to be much more helpful

[@mac_lak]

@@realtimestatic Yeah, they say "RTFM", "why do you need this?", or even worse, it becomes a flame war between two concurrent libraries... So usefull... We can also speak about the fact that when ONE solution is found, near NOBODY search for another, better solution and you won't find anything else. Same for near all open-source softwares, BTW, got this with Qt recently.

[@TealJosh]

@@mac_lak people still hate qt? That's like a decade old beef.

[@mac_lak]

@@TealJosh Probably you don't have the same standards as me - or the same job. It's not because a problem exists since the beginning that it's outdated... C vs. C++ is still a thing, in particular in embedded, realtime or kernel world. Qt have a lot of problems, the most critical one is that it breaks near ALL "SOLID" principles, lacks way too much templatization and recent C++ features, don't use properly STL, fragment memory too much, "redo" some elements that should not have been redone, don't use exceptions, and one of the most critical one, it sucks a LOT on massively threaded applications (it's way, way too easy to totally overflow the message pump). On the maintenance part, there is too much breaking changes in Qt API within versions, forbidding easy version following - it's often too expensive to update the Qt version on an old project, for little to no benefits. Even between LTS. Upgradring from a previous major version is simply a suicidal move: it implies a LOT of work, and a full (re)qualification of the final product is required - that's very expensive too.

[@TealJosh]

@@mac_lak alright. Most of those points I agree with especially if they apply still. But exceptions? Who uses exceptions when RAII is practically the way to go?

[@stephanegilbert8800]

The best thing Microsoft has done for developers in recent years is VSCode

[@liblevi45s53]

Yeah, I agree. Though I try and use VSCodium rather than VSCode where ever possible.

[@resonatingsilence]

Absolutely. And VS Code supports ARM64, something you can’t say for its arch nemesis

[@neoqueto]

WSL2 is the shizz for webdev man. In the web development sphere it used to be only Mac or Linux, now I can build anything, deploy anything, host anything, without clunky software and translating shell commands to Windows style

[@SapphireTvYt]

I am a loser so I use intellij ide or sublime 😀

[@lifebarier]

VSCode is bloated electron based almost ide. If you want heawy ide use ide like visual studio or intellij. If you want text editor you have plenty of better choises. There is no reason to use thing like vscode. Yes it is pretty, but that is all it is good at.

[@PongoXBongo]

As an IT support tech/sysadmin on Windows systems, I've come across many admin rights issues (UAC prompts) that can be resolved by manually assigning proper permissions (NTFS, Registry, etc.). Surprisingly, many software vendors are unaware of, or apathetic to, such workarounds (technically proper fixes). One of the single greatest assets in Windows, as far as system support goes, is the Event Viewer.

[@ContantContact]

Having retired from that position, I can agree there are lots of tweaks. But, Who can know them? Or will... Not many. Windows is such a convoluted mess that no one really can. Linux?, Install it and run it. Tweaks are mostly for convenience.

[@PongoXBongo]

​@@ContantContact As an OS, Linux is much simpler and easier than Windows. However, when it comes time to try and run an odd, but needed application on Linux, that's when the search for workarounds (WINE, etc.) or Linux-compatable alternatives (that users will hate having to relearn) come into play.

[@abcdurs7459]

@@PongoXBongo "simpler and easier than windows" - sorry to say, that is simply FALSE; there is no way an average non-technical person can EVER achieve the same level of productivity in Linux (any distro) than in Windows. By productivity, I mean working with Office, Photoshop, media creation, gaming, web-surfing, and basically everyday activity. And please, don't you dare to call Android "Linux distro" :)))

[@OnHoldAt50]

My programming co-worker introduced me to your channel. While I'm MS certified (not close to your level of course). I'm glad to have found your channel, very interesting person to subscribe to for a geek like me. Thanks for taking time to put out the vast number of videos you've produced.

[@DavesGarage]

Welcome aboard! Glad you're finding some interesting!

[@JasonMitchellofcompsci]

How do you know someone is MS certified?

[@OnHoldAt50]

@@JasonMitchellofcompsci 1) they passed a huge battery of tests, 2) they have credentials to show for it?

[@ShrirajHegde]

Who needs official documentation while there's archwiki

[@abhiramshibu]

Exactly :-) But it does not guide you to disect kernel and all though...

[@ShrirajHegde]

@@abhiramshibu it just has to compete with windows documentation

[@slendi9623]

Nah the gentoo one is better

[@krozareq]

@@abhiramshibu The kernel has good documentation :D It even comes with the source but not every kernel package or distro installs it or requires a separate package. Arch splits it into the linux-docs package.

[@KarlHamel]

True, I also rarely have to go on Stack like he said for searching answers because I can pretty much find them all in the wiki itself.

[@jordansean18]

"Sometimes the source code is the best documentation" Yep. If someone gives me a weird error message I will usually just go straight to the source code and figure out where that message gets thrown and why.

[@CarlenWhite]

And hell, add a commit that makes the error message less weird and more informative.

[@ikannunaplays]

The company I worked at the documentation was always 10 years out of date, reading the code to know what it did was always what you had to do.

[@memovilmx6239]

@@scottfranco1962 Erorr 2342432353: "you shouldn't be seeing this."

[@chrisjohnson5798]

@@memovilmx6239 Error: the operation completed successfully

[@jan-lukas]

I'm modding Minecraft (that means directly changing the code, not using forge), and as you can imagine, the doc isn't that good, and every time I just look at the source, and if I can't because it's a library, it's very annoying (I could decompile the library, but that also sucks)

[@kbyethx]

I’m loving these videos. I really like that Dave seems to have a very strong user grasp of Linux and macOS too (though mentioning Apple charing for updates is about 12+ years out of date now). Great videos, I love them! Also, props on the Friendly Giant bit at the very end! ^_^

[@ssokolow]

As a programmer who runs Linux primarily for its customizability, I have to say that, for me, it's not what's *possible* to accomplish in userland, but how easy it is. I find the available APIs and tooling on Linux *much* friendlier for hammering my desktop into the shape I want it in. (Among other things, being able to accomplish my goals by writing a language like Rust or Python or working in a separate process to minimize the chance that I introduce or expose a crash or memory corruption bug.) To be fair, I've only encountered Windows on the machines of other family members since I binned Windows XP for Mandrakelinux 10.0 back in 2002 because I got fed up with how crash-happy Windows options for accomplishing the desktop I wanted (eg. Litestep) were and, even if I weren't already on Linux at the time, I hate the flat-design, "think of the touch screens!" design direction the Windows UI has been going. As far as interface hackability goes, I'll concede Tom Scott's point that Windows has AutoHotKey, but Linux desktops win on hackability elsewhere.

[@elksalmon84]

Gnome Foundation disagrees. They don't want you to customize.

[@ssokolow]

@@elksalmon84 The only time in the last twenty years that I wasn't using KDE was during the first half of the KDE 4.x cycle when it was enough of a mess that I spent time on LXDE instead. Also, two years ago when I wrote that, their departure from the state of things under GNOME 2.x wasn't as apparent yet.

[@Curt_Sampson]

@@elksalmon84 Which is fine, because you don't need to use Gnome. There are several major desktop systems that can be mixed and matched with literally _dozens_ of different window managers to suit whatever trade off of "ease of use" vs. customisation you like.

[@spodula]

@@elksalmon84 Gnome and KDE are really holding Linux back at the moment. (And i say that as using Mint as my main desktop). There are some aspects of the gnome file manager that i really wish i had the programming chops to fix.

[@Max0r847]

Yea Windows had some great UI graphical elements and then they ruined it with this 2D simplistic bullshit that makes it impossible to visually discern shit, especially the god damn scroll bars jesus christ

[@H34D5H07]

I believe the old DirectX should become opened for support of old software.

[@gerjaison]

I also believe Visual Basic 6 should become opened for support of old software.

[@klaxoncow]

Or, well, more generally, there ought to be an overall "abadonware" thing, where when a product is now obsolete - and the owner really isn't genuinely making any useful cash from it - that the source code is released. I know that iD software famously used to make a policy of that. Releasing the source code to the DOOM and Quake and iDTech engines after so many years. And I know that Jeff Minter - of Llamasoft - has explicitly said that, after so many years, he considers all his work effectively "abadonware" and is fine with people doing pretty much anything with it. Some people hold to a perfectly reasonable "I need to make a living here, so it's proprietary and closed so I can sell it to put food on my table... but once I've made my money from this, after so many years, and it's not really a going concern anymore, then here's the source and I surrender it to the public domain". Basically, how copyright ought to work, if the US government didn't keep extending it to keep Mickey Mouse under Disney's copyright. Indeed, the law should be altered to perhaps not a fixed length of time, but more a definition of "going concern". Mickey Mouse is still definitely a going concern for Disney - they still make use of him and he remains valuable to them for making their living - so you could keep Mickey under copyright on that basis, rather than constantly extending the fixed length term, keeping absolutely everything in copyright for 6 million years after the author's death. So, Mickey Mouse would be protected because he's actively being used by the company. But other things - like an older version of DirectX no-one uses anymore and which is not actively making Microsoft any money anymore - could have a shorter time until they go "public domain". Note here that the brand "DirectX" is still an active going concern, so this would not place the "DirectX" brand in the public domain or anything - Microsoft keep their intellectual property - but solely that old version, which is not used, not making anyone any money anymore. This would be the more sensible basis to handle these things, I feel. But the law is what the law is, unfortunately. Copyright was originally intended to PROTECT the "small guy" from just having their works stolen outright by bigger fish - the corporations - and that, once it expires, things fall into the public domain was to ensure an author can make a living from their work, but then all of society eventually benefits. That was the original idea. But it has been abused ever since, and it's become a mess. So, truth is, though some big proprietary commercial organisations have complained otherwise, the "copyleft" movement honestly is the one that best preserves the spirit of what copyright was intended to do. Let a creator make a living from what they do, but then it all defaults to "public domain" after expiry, so the human race collectively benefits - and all of us are free to do what we like with Bach's music or stage our own version of Dicken's Christmas Carol.

[@ccricers]

DX9 open would be pretty rad. Monogame is an open source implementation (plus more than DX9 profiles) but it's still not C++.

[@dermond]

Pretty please

[@tato-chip7612]

"A spelling error in a resource file would get you a copy of windows and a t shirt" I want a Win 2K t-shirt that would be nice.

[@bknesheim]

Win 2K is the last version of Windows I have run on a server for more then a year without haveing a crash that needed a reboot to fix.

[@tato-chip7612]

@@bknesheim some japanese guy is using a source leak to make patches so that you can use it today.

[@R.Daneel]

@@bknesheim I started out on VMS. On a Vax 11/780. They didn't crash. The closest I ever saw to a crash was when *our* login script had a bug that used all the space on the system volume. Not much the OS can do about that.

[@Napert]

13:00 - "security" by obscurity shouldn't be praised this much I lost braincells listening to this

[@Lttlemoi]

Absolutely, because it also means found exploits have a higher chance of remaining obscure.

[@bobbrown8661]

Its particularly insidious considering governments are given access to the source code of windows, for which they then keep discovered bugs for themselves to exploit at a future date.

[@erk_0483]

Great video! About the security aspect of Linux: Not only the public looks at the source code, but also the Linux Foundation, which is financed by huge donations (over 100 million dollars a year, according to phoronix) and can therefore pay for security tests and "bug bounty" programs. Linux is additionally checked for security gaps by enterprise distributions (e.g. RHEL, Ubuntu, SUSE Linux, Oracle Linux).

[@jamescobban857]

The XZ deliberate exploit was caught by a Microsoft Employee. Thankfully the days when Microsoft thought Linux was an enemy are gone. Most of Microsoft's own websites run on LINUX. Microsoft DONATED its .NET implementation to Linux. I suspect the only reason the Crowdstrike error did not take out Linux servers is because people running Linux do NOT trust it because they either have their own software security staff or hire support from their Distro vendor.

[@user-eq2fp6jw4g]

Actually grandma can handle desktop linux as well as windows. Once you basically need to do one thing. Open a browser....

[@lal12]

I agree I installed linux on my mothers and my grandfathers machines. It is free, it is faster on their bit older hardware and they don't use anything else than a browser anyway.

[@prostagma3132]

It's a common misconception to believe windows has the upper-hand on UX just because, whereas in reality people are just used to it because it's popular which not necessarily makes it good. I would have awarded that to apple maybe, but then again linux has distros that emulate very well the macos look and feel, so...

[@lal12]

@@prostagma3132 I totally agree. Though I have to say the windows UI is much more extensive than anything Mac/Linux offers so you can do almost anything without touching a CLI. But no the usability of Windows isn't really great in general. Specifically thinking about that desastrous split in Settings app and control panel in win 10 (especially for the first years).

[@Scanner9631]

1 2 - Actually grandma can handle desktop linux as well as windows. Once you basically need to do one thing. Open a browser.... Can't agree with that. My 85 year old mother is constantly messed up by windows changes. She gets blocked from using it for hours at a time when it decides to do "necessary updates". One day I'll try and convert her to Linux. Linux only updates with your consent. Changes only happen with consent.

[@LowSpecLinuxLaptop]

IMHO, depending on desktop environment, Linux is much easier to use than WIN10

[@blakesmith2101]

Nothing about Microsoft's data collection in round 1.

[@pro_cheekibreeki]

It's only round 1

[@Goodwarrior12345]

Serious question: why do you care about Microsoft collecting your data? You have a KZbin account with (I'm assuming) your real name, so you willingly give Google your data. You probably also use at least some social network and are likely to have accounts for many of the websites you use, a lot of which, you guessed it, collect your data in some way or another. It's kinda confusing why you care about this one specific instance of it happening but ignore it in most other cases.

[@zbnmth]

@@Goodwarrior12345 maybe because you pay for windows, but Google accepts your data as payment?...

[@Goodwarrior12345]

@@zbnmth so you're saying you're not ideologically opposed to companies collecting your data as long as you're paying for their products? Strange distinction to make.

[@dee23gaming]

@@Goodwarrior12345 It's not because of privacy that we don't want data collected, it is about the CPU and Memory resources Windows 10 hogs up to send your data

[@Trezker]

I really like that Linux gives me to choice to reboot when I want. So I keep installing updates until some behavior makes me think maybe a reboot would actually be a good idea.

[@MiningForPies]

Yeah. Apart from when it forces you to reboot after an update, it doesn’t force you to reboot 🙄

[@RenderingUser]

​​​@@MiningForPieswhen did Linux ever force a reboot after an update?

[@MiningForPies]

@@RenderingUser at least three times this year for me

[@RenderingUser]

@@MiningForPies bro what distro are you using? I've never had that happen even once in the past 3 years

[@MiningForPies]

@@RenderingUser Ubuntu. And it’s happened on Ubuntu derivatives like pop os in the past.

[@samuelriveros6446]

I've tried many Linux distributions and i always come back to Microsoft Windows because of the convenience, also because some linux distros were unstable to the point of being annoying. And then I've found Linux Mint Cinnamon edition. That distribution is elegant, fast, stable and attractive. I think that's the perfect option for someone who wants to try Linux.

[@cloviscareca]

I've migrated 1 year ago to Linux Mint. It's a bliss 😊

[@llortaton2834]

Ubuntu mate is the most stable distribution by the fact that it is optimized for low powered equipment and supported on the widest range of hardware due to it's market share / gigantic community.

[@mikafoxx2717]

​@@llortaton2834I would say debian is the most stable, Ubuntu is built atop it.

[@tomspencer1364]

@@llortaton2834 Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu at the moment and has a mate spin. Six of one half a dozen of the other. Both mate and cinnamon were generated from the end of gnome 2 DE and all that gnome 3 nonsense -- the worst idea since the happily dead Windows 8.

[@michaelandrews4783]

Desktop Linux requires too many compromises just for the sake of running it.

[@realshaoran4514]

There is one thing about security that I hoped Dave would mention. I am a GNU/Linux user and love free software and while I agree with Dave that it's fallacy to think that open source is safer because many more eyes can see the source code (that is simply not true, look at the bugs in openssl that were there for years), there is one nice thing about open source in general: once a bug is discovered and information is publicly available, it is fixed very very quickly and you can be sure that in very few days (sometimes even hours) you'll get an security update. On the close source side you don't have this "guarantee" (neither do you on the open source, but very likely), you are at the mercy of the manufacturer. Who know how many bugs are still open in Windows simply because Microsoft decided not to close them because of monetary reasons. Open source projects cannot afford to that, they would loose their credibility instantly. So for me, on the long run, open source becomes also more safe because of the speed at which bugs can be closed and updated delivered. But I'm aware that this does not apply for all open source projects.

[@canadajones9635]

At worst, if you run an open source OS, you can just patch in the updated code yourself, even if the maintainers haven't released a pre-packaged version yet

[@EnigmaM1]

Also important to keep in mind that huge organizations like the NSA contribute code to the linux kernel.

[@Mercurio-Morat-Goes-Bughunting]

Security by obscurity has a long track record of providing the excuse not to spend money fixing a security hole.

[@janialander414]

Well you get updates for open source products as long as projects have active maintainers. But if software comes orphaned (that happens) then you are on your own.

[@realshaoran4514]

@@janialander414 yes, but that applies to software in general, also source closed projects, so that doesn't change my point. Of course, I'm talking about currently maintained projects.

[@whathandleisnttaken]

Before I say this, I want y'all to know that I am very biased towards linux. The only thing that I want to say is that I disagree with how you scored the communities helpfulness. With linux, stack exchange is not nearly the only place where people ask questions. There is the ubuntu forums, the arch wiki, and many more. Also by having more places to source answers from questions, you can find many solutions on different websites which I think is useful.

[@davidfrischknecht8261]

I agree. Arch and Gentoo have very helpful communities on their forums, provided you've done the due diligence of looking for the answer in the documentation.

[@SyphistPrime]

I have solved so many problems by looking through forums and distro centric help. Plus if you look at it, a much larger section of the community is willing to help. On discord I've noticed (and been apart of) groups of people all trying to solve Linux issues.

[@calebmullan4593]

Gotta agree as well. The reason Windows won that round was that he was looking at a) one website, and b) developer help specifically. The Linux community spans a lot of different places, and is full of people willing to help both devs and ordinary users (indeed, in Linux the line is blurred).

[@lenonkitchens7727]

Right, and you also have to consider that while the Windows community may have more answers per question, the answer is often "update", or "sorry, that's not possible on Windows", or something equally unhelpful. At least, it's unhelpful from the PoV of the questioner.

[@deltakid0]

Believe it or not, here in Colombia in 2006 I had a Pentium MMX 166 Mhz 64 MB EDO RAM running Windows 98 because that's how poor I was/am and I used to watch Smallville, Prison Break, all that TV shows, movies, surf web, programming, etc, later I tried Debian 3 if I'm not wrong and that system specs were only for command line mode. Now I think the game is turning around since I need faster hardware specs to run Windows 7 than Debian 8. Microsoft really helped me to get introduced into the computing because it ran on cheap hardware, furthermore the Linux side has been always for skilled users which I am now but not back then.

[@adrianstephens56]

Your comments about needing to see the source code to debug effectively resonated with me, as one who had to write a device driver without knowledge of the source code. Please bear with me as I develop a theme based on lack of knowledge, and perhaps take a provocative stance. We interact daily with systems programmed with hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lines of software. There’s been a lot of discussion in the technical media about “the algorithm” - behaviours programmed into software by programmers, based on their skills, knowledge and biases. Recent experience gave me a reason to introspect on how programming has changed, and not necessarily for the better. About 30 years ago, I wrote the “bare metal” software for a treadmill to be used in hospitals. I had the circuit diagrams of the control board and manuals for the peripheral chips. I got to design a control protocol running over a serial line. I thought about the design for a long while (days), my best thinking being done while waiting for sleep in bed. Then I documented the design and wrote the program over a week or so, several thousand lines of software. I debugged and tested it over a week or so. When I wrote the software, I was not ignorant of anything relevant in the environment. I did not have to refactor the code (at the time I would not have known that term). Some time later I wrote a display adapter driver for Windows 95 to use a graphics accelerator that we had designed. Windows does some incredibly complex things to maintain backwards compatibility, such as to virtualize certain bits within an IO location, but not others, and to switch these bits with task switches. Microsoft provides documentation for the various hooks, and sample code. There were two main difficulties: 1) complexity; 2) inaccuracy of the documentation. Basically, the documentation did not describe the actual behaviour of the OS. So, it was necessary to make progress in small steps testing and gaining new knowledge of actual behaviour. Any design done was of limited scope because of the lack of knowledge of how the environment actually worked. At the end of the project, I had enough knowledge to go back and completely redesign the driver - except that we didn’t have the budget to do that, so it never got done. Recently, I have been writing (for my own amusement) a web application using a JavaScript framework, called React. I have been incrementally assembling my knowledge of the framework by building more and more functionality into the application. I have and will continuously refactor the application as knowledge gained points to earlier poor design decisions. The amount of documentation out there is huge. The challenge is to find the right bits to read, or I’d be spending all my time reading and none of it programming. And the documentation may or may not be correct, and you can’t tell which. And I discovered that the tag in React works, except on Firefox - which took me a day of furious head-scratching till the light dawned, and I bothered to search for others with the same issue. Where am I going with this? The complexity of modern software, and the copious documentation, some of it of uncertain accuracy means that we are often forced to make progress in small steps designed to resolve our ignorance. We make designs ignorant of their suitability. In fact, we make designs in the sure knowledge that we will have to go back and change some of those decisions. I had a non-programmer colleague bemoan the cost of doing a major refactor to a business-critical application suite. “Why didn’t they get it right in the first place?” was his question. Part of the reason why relates to programmer ignorance. Thanks to the huge progress in modern software, we are now, essentially, ignorant programmers.

[@edubmf]

Very correct, sadly.

[@benjamingoldstein1111]

Who's also watching Dave on a Linux machine? And in 2022? Isn't it stunning how people still watch this today? I feel obliged to drool away such comments under a KZbin videos. I believe, the community standards command it.

[@greob]

Strongly disagreed on the "security through obscurity" part. Closed-source programs are definitely not more secure because their source code is private. However it is true that open-source lacks manpower to develop and look for vulnerabilities, but that is again because of proprietary vendors. If everybody used libre and open-source software, this problem would not exist.

[@MarcusTheDorkus]

They aren't more secure just because they're closed source but it contributes to making it harder to break. It's another layer of defense. I think one way to think about it would be to say you have 2 equally secure systems but one of them is closed source and one of them is open source. If you have people race to try to break one first, the open source system will certainly be the one to fall.

[@killertigergaming6762]

@@MarcusTheDorkus yes however there's a problem the open source one will likely have less vulnerability due to more people working on fixing problems which will make it harder to break into

[@killertigergaming6762]

@@MarcusTheDorkus so it's possible Linux could be slower or faster depending on many factors

[@nickwallette6201]

I have an example that is a mixed bag: First, let's just get this out of the way: I'm sure there are levels of review on submission to the Windows source tree as well, but the review of submissions to Linux starts when changes are submitted, and just keeps going forever. Remember when somebody found that root escalation "bug" in the kernel source that checked a condition like this? if (user = root) ... Oops! Should've been: if (user == root) ... It's a bit embarrassing that wasn't caught immediately, but the fact that it got through initial code review, but THEN got caught on casual code review later shows how valuable those eyeballs are. Anyone can miss one obvious bug, and I'm sure it happens daily with both Windows and Linux sources. But, after the code is in the wild, it doesn't have to be exploited to find issues in OSS, and there's _always_ somebody looking at the Linux source.

[@R.B.]

@@nickwallette6201 the subtle problem with all those eyes looking is that they may not all be white hat. If a black hat finds something they aren't likely to share the discovery. While that problem still exists for a closed architecture, and because the ability for someone else to discover the vulnerability might be low because you'd have to find it from behaviors or reverse engineering, it does impose additional obstacles that make it a little more difficult to leverage than if you have a road map already in front of you. Ideally white hats would have open access to source code and black hats wouldn't, but that's not reality. Long term it is probably better for Windows users that the code is closed because while vulnerabilities might be discovered to have been festering for years, the exploitation of something tends to quickly gain attention and is quickly patched out when found, and that tends to happen at a manageable pace. If you had open windows, you'd see lots of different distros with different patch levels and trying to keep all those systems protected would be an exercise in futility. This means that there may be some significant unpatched vulnerabilities which only a few black hats know, but so that those advantages aren't wasted they probably won't be used except in very controlled ways. Consider it like getting access to a secured iPhone, we know that a vulnerability existed because access to a phone was conducted, but the specifics about how was never detailed. Keeping that information close to the chest is more valuable than a jailbreak method.

[@jeremiefaucher-goulet3365]

I loved your idea on how to open the windows's source under a hybrid model. That would make a lot of sense, not only for Microsoft but also for their consumers.

[@SkuldChan42]

My understanding is that is the way the windows shared source license works - driver developers and researchers already have access to it.

[@oerthling]

@@SkuldChan42 There's too much hassle involved. But no worries, I'm convinced that trends will convince MS to eventually completely open source Windows. This is what I think will happen: Market pressures will reduce margins on Windows licenses. At some point MS makes hardly any money from Windows anyway and giving it away for free to protect market share and higher value products on top of it (MS office, SQL Server, etc...). With Windows then being free (as in beer), there is no real value left to keep the source code secret. To the opposite, why not profit from unpaid people providing bug fixes? And it calms fears of corporations and nations that NSA code might soy on them. Completely open sourcing MS Windows looks pretty unavoidable to me.

[@sumd]

@@oerthling MS makes a lot of money still through enterprise sale of Windows. All the large corpos still use it. Think about outside US. I’m from India and have worked in a big IT service company here. Everyone is given to work on windows. All paid licences. No Macs since they’re costly. Also windows is used still massively by giant service companies. Also think of the computers which comes preloaded with windows. Most average person investing on a laptop let’s say isn’t going to get an OS free system. It might seem that Microsoft is giving away the OS for free, but they are getting all that money back once people enter the professional workforce. There’s no escaping windows(most of the time) once you go corpo.

[@jeremiefaucher-goulet3365]

@@realGBx64 It's not even openwashing if you put up a paywall where you have to pay and be "approved". That's even lower than open washing. Openwashing I could, at the very least, be able to look at it for academic research.

[@Michael-mh2tw]

Giving an opinion IS biased. That's what an opinion is.

[@chri-k]

“unbiased opinion” is a pair of words i’ve seen together way too many times

[@Jay-Ryan]

That Outro: Wait Dave, you're Canadian? What a throwback to maybe the most classic memories of my childhood TV... Except maybe Mr Dressup! Cheers from Moncton NB!

[@experiment86]

That was a pretty fair assessment considering your former work at Microsoft. As far as user interfaces go, I do like that in linux there are options for different experiences. There are features in some desktop environments that I wish I could get in Windows. However, I agree that isn't necessary for all users. Another point of frustration for me is Windows updates, but you seem to somewhat agree there.

[@thijmenvoskuilen3646]

Yeah I like the ability to choose your desktop environment as well. He said that many desktop environments lacked features but I haven't experienced that at all. I think Linux has improved a lot in that regard.

Setting up a simple Linux distro for grandma is the best thing you can do. You can keep them safe on the internet and make sure they don't break anything. People installing random applications by themselves and being a bit more advanced may be a different case.

[@attemarkula]

Yep, upgrading Windows or installing Linux that will be supported forever without TPM problems. "Grandma PC" is basically kiosk terminal, unless they have support at the location(in both OS).

[@thegardenofeatin5965]

I would agree. If you were to graph the suitability of Linux as a function of the users technical skill, I think that graph becomes a U. The grandma types who basically do some light web browsing and already rely on a tech savvy family member as a sysadmin? Linux is probably the outright superior tool. Here's the Firefox button. Here's the Solitaire button. Whether you pick Windows or Linux, I would have to install and set it up for you, and Linux is way easier to manage for someone.

[@GamingHelp]

Funny story: My mother ran FreeBSD 4.3 for years and my father ran Irix 6.5.X on my old SGI 02. Neither ever had to bug me about tech issues. They just shook the mouse and did their thing, then walked away when they were done. Then mom bought a windows machine. You can guess how it went. :)

[@ContantContact]

@@thegardenofeatin5965 Bingo. That describes my wife, and is exactly what I did. Any problems she has in usage, would be (or were) the same as with windows. And the sysadmin is better on Linux. I don't have to worry about her hitting the update/upgrade buttons for example.

[@Ankudamurderer]

I installed mint for my grandparents and it was the best thing I ever did, I never heard another complaint ever again. And it was always comforting to see that they hadn't installed a million viruses on their machines by the time I checked again.

[@aldak8635]

Hey Dave, I have been watching your videos for a short time and really appreciate them. I like the inside perspective that you're uniquely capable of talking about. I am an Enterprise application software developer/engineer. I hope to see many more videos from you.

[@TechDeals]

Microsoft Windows is the greatest operating system ever designed. Why? 1. It has to support software dating back decades 2. It runs on an almost infinite number of hardware configurations 3. It supports an incredible number of driver and software revisions 4. It has to handle upgrade after upgrade in place without losing programs or data 5. It must be user friendly, from tech admins to Grandma It is actually possible to install Windows 1.0, then do an in-place upgrade through every single version of Windows to 11. While 11 is now 64-bit only, and that does drop some old 16-bit code support, the reality is you can run vDos and thus run 1980s DOS programs on your shiny new Windows 11 installation. Nothing else in computer history even comes close to this.

[@tech477]

The question is whether you have ever used anything else?

[@anotherfellasaiditsnunya]

I really enjoy your style, pace and delivery! The few times i have understood what you are doing, you have built upon my existing knowledge and that should be congratulated! Thanks Dave!

[@DavesGarage]

Awesome, thank you!

[@seephor]

You forgot privacy. This goes to Linux. Windows has basically turned into one large spyware

[@brinckau]

This is "round 1" only. Hopefully he will cover this topic in a future video.

[@ccricers]

That gets iffy with Deepin

[@Ghi102]

About the closed-source vs open-source security part, I am sure that Microsoft has a competent security team to ensure that it is secure, however, I've worked at enough companies to know that, unless security is a core part of the business, you can be sure that it's basically non-existent. Open-source equivalents are usually more secure in those cases

[@stanislavmikheyev8767]

Linux: we are not giving any guaranties of security. But code is open. So please go check it, suggest changes, make your own adjustments. Windows: trust me bro, we have testers.

[@abrahamalaniz3468]

Random companies vs Microsoft. Hmmm lol

[@user78405]

bad part, majority from china and russia

[@michaelandrews4783]

The fact the windows is the most attacked OS on and survives, it's not too bad.

[@salatwurzel-4388]

@@michaelandrews4783 There is a lot more data and money to be made attacking Linux, it dominates the field where most of it is (Webservers, databases etc)

[@DaVince21]

Interesting opinion about desktop environments. I'd consider the option of choice a positive one for Linux, and the opinion of which ones are terrible and which ones are good a, well, opinion. Quite a fan of KDE these days who also put time and effort into usability (but still have a ways to go when it comes to accessibility).

[@mathman0569]

I was like, windows is slightly more friendly, but really, KDE or GNOME are pretty polished.

[@entelin]

To the vast majority of computer users choice and change are incredibly undesirable. Most want to run whatever application they need, and that's about it. So the possibility of sitting down at different computers and it operating or looking different is a significant downside. About 20 years ago I tried out KDE and I remember thinking: "Cool, looks nice, I'll check back in a couple years when it's more stable and polished" I recently had a look at Plasma and throught to myself: "Cool, looks nice, maybe one day it won't crash within the first 30 mins of me using it". Gnome seems fairly usable though feels sluggish. Personally I've always used various WM's, dwm for the past handful of years. I've never found any of the full DEs on linux to be very usable, but fortunately you can make a very snappy and customized workflow in more minimalist wm's.

[@cameronholtan3407]

Arch Wiki is all the documentation I need...

[@nngnnadas]

Your hybrid model is called "source avaiable" btw, if I understood you correctly. The soruce code is made available to read, but the license is a regular proprietary one. The way you described it also made me think of the way AT&T Unix was destributed to begin with. So perheps making things go a full circle 🤭

[@monad_tcp]

Yes, they should let us see the code. Just like the Shared-Cli on the DotNet, its so useful to debug things.

[@dalekman8945]

That would be so sick if windows finally caved and adopted this model.

[@OpenGL4ever]

That's why the "Shared Source" License model was there for and it was introduced by Microsoft.

[@zadintuvas1]

Yes, Microsoft even created a license called Ms-RSL for using source code as a reference.

[@Ormgryd]

Won't happen, then they'll have to reveal all the tracking code and backdoors they have installed.

[@logiconabstractions6596]

The UI argument I think CAN be faire, but is also a bit date. I'm a big XFCE-4 fan, and I'd take that interface over Win 11's anyday. The other point I'd make on that is that while windows is generally well-optimized for the general user, I find it painful to use as a poweruser. I often require more clicks than I'd like to get things done, sacrificing speed of use for ease of use for non-tehc user.

[@guliguli7469]

I think it's definitely outdated. GNOME is much simplier and more flexible than Windows. The top-bar also is a killer-feature. If we talking about UX - GNOME (and KDE) are much better and simplier for user to find any settings. In Windows many common parameters are hided so fucking deep that you need to google how to find them. Moreover, some "big" changes you can make only by editing registry, which is awful. Also, every Linux distro allows you to change shortcuts, while Windows gives you only 2 choices for switching language. GNOME and KDE also has many extensions, which allows you to make DE prettier and more convenient. If the DE developers cuted off or changed something you liked, you can easily get this things back.

[@WR3ND]

I find the Xfce desktop on Linux fairly straightforward and efficient these days, though of course I like to customize it more to my liking than how it usually comes default or with the various distros. Something like Cinnamon on Linux Mint is probably more newbie friendly though.

[@softcolly8753]

Indeed. Around ten years ago, Ubuntu pushed desktops that seem to be designed around tablets and phones, which in my opinion was a huge step back for usability. XFCE suits me perfectly. Intuitive and fast, and behave as I expect, no stupid effects hiding and expanding things.

[@salatwurzel-4388]

@@softcolly8753 Well to be fair it worked for macOS

[@penguin2251]

Hi Dave, i was wondering if you have ever met Gabe Newell at Microsoft. He had worked for Microsoft from 1983 until 1996 when he founded Valve. Also, great video as always!

[@DavesGarage]

We were in the same area, as graphics was just down the hall, and we overlapped for about 3 years, but I didn't get a chance to talk to him much!

[@remasteredretropcgames3312]

@@DavesGarage Gabe is a Divine God. Praise him.

[@remasteredretropcgames3312]

I just found the workaround to Max Payne 3. Unfortunately Dave isnt going to hook the community up with his obscene knowledge so we can get game effect passes going before reshades effect passes in the graphics pipeline. The 3D cutscenes where the developers overlay 2D flashback or other related effects, you can see the 3D models ambient occlusion bleeding through it. I ordinarily have a zero tolerance policy for this sort of rendering behavior, but its legitimately in at least my testing minor.

[@remasteredretropcgames3312]

@@DavesGarage So I downloaded Javascript Studios, the baby programmer language. I was forced to to begin trying to get Vortex to appreciate FF X. The first gripe I have, is why is the files im saving, being saved behind a wall of literally the hidden appdata file? I see no good reason for this, considering if I want to get my hands on it I totally can. Its just inconvenient. That appears to be a lot of situations in this programming business that probably dont need to exist the way they do. I probably have more fans than I realize but im not talking humans. Been keeping up with the news lately?

[@jhoughjr1]

@@DavesGarage Did you know Brian Button?

[@bwhite5310]

Since we are speaking about security, a big shout out to the Exchange Server team. I’m sure the last few days have been “exciting”.

[@MarkALong64]

A lot of the excitement was in December when MS were figuring out what was going on. Credit where credit is due - they did a nice cleanup job. Brickbats where brickbats are due. They were slow to provide indicators of compromise to the industry.

[@llortaton2834]

Dave, last time i checked linux has filesystem like ZFS, BTRFS, options like KSM for containers and virtual machines, LXD. Those are some of the features i wish you would talk about in your next videos if possible! Thank you.

[@0M9H4X_Neckbeard]

This has probably been suggested 500 times already but just In case I want to say you really have to make a video where you take a look through ReactOS source code

[@whathandleisnttaken]

I'd like to see his view

[@Alche_mist]

With the obvious caveat ReactOS people will do that whoever sees the video will never after contribute to the ReactOS development.

[@kingjakewolf5348]

he probably can't suggest anything because the reactos team doesn't let people who worked at microsoft make changes to the code

[@jonathondoran7649]

You mentioned device drivers, and as a former device driver author (and Microsoft partner), I need to raise a concern. Back in the day we could write/release drivers, but now individuals cannot due to signing requirements. So a big difference. With Linux I can hand over the source with build instructions. With Windows I need to pay for the signing process (or run in Test Mode). So hardware developers would give that point to Linux. (Also I found writing the same driver in both Linux and Windows resulted in much quicker development under Linux, but that could just be me) PS: Re security... Security through obscurity is never a good idea.

[@TishSerg]

Now look at the life cycle of those drivers. The drivers for Windows can be written once and survive a few major OS updates. I.e. a driver written for Windows 7 still works in Windows 10. That is especially appreciable when the driver/hardware vendor is gone or is not supporting that piece anymore. In the case of Linux, you're doomed to use that old Kernel from when the vendor supported the driver. This leads to the situation when releasing a driver for Linux makes little sense since rather sooner than later Linux Kernel will get some breaking change and the vendor has to update the driver. But if the vendor is not supporting it anymore... And this is confirmed by real life when you compare the availability of drivers for Windows and Linux.

[@njellis]

Hey Dave, I'm not much of a commenter - but I want to let you know I've watched many hours of your vids, do hit that like button, because I know the time and effort you put into creating these and I just wanted to let you know I appreciate, value and thank you for producing these things. You seem like a very cool guy to know!

[@SomeTechGuy666]

In the late 90s we built a product based on Microsoft Access. Everything worked great until we shipped it to a bunch of customers. And found the Access engine would crash randomly once the database got to a certain size through no fault of our own. We soon transitioned to Postgresql. And thus began my foray into OS. Crashing inbox pushed me the rest of the way. Ditto viruses. I've been a Redhat user on my daily workstation since Redhat 8 back in the early 2000s.

[@whummer98]

Yeah Access was a step up from Excel and better than anything on Mac but was never consider beyond development, SQL worked fine and others before that.

[@thepenguin9]

I would totally build core windows components daily just to report spelling errors and get free t shirts and licence keys

[@jannikmeissner]

Very nice episode, though I have to disagree on the support part: Of course you can get commercial support, both by vendors of commercial distributions like Suse or Red Hat or from third parties that offer Linux support. Try getting third party support to help you fix a bug on a critical system running Windows ;). Same thing about security: I am sure Canonical, Red Hat, Suse etc also employ a lot of security engineers for testing. I like your idea of an opening of Windows, and looking the direction Microsoft is taking, I think this may very well happen one day.

[@EwanMarshall]

Indeed, he is assuming these big companies do not exist, Google and Microsoft also test linux and submits bugs and bug fixes to linux these days. It is almost like half his view is 25 years out of date. Even 10 years ago it wasn't as bad as being suggested. Is there a race, sure, but there is that race on windows, just have to take extra steps to find the security flaws.

[@gonzalogutierrez970]

Much of the technical support at Microsoft is a hoax: The user is lost in a maze of phone calls and emails, which ultimately solve nothing

[@amorphousblob2721]

One time, I had 30 ZIP files in a folder on the Mac at school. To unzip them all, I had to click on them, wait for some app to pop up, and then click a button, 30 times. There was no alternative, since it was before MacOS had a command shell (supposedly one of its selling points). On DOS, I could write a batch script in 30 seconds and walk away while the computer did the rest. Sometimes, the command line is the more usable option. And the Linux command line is still more powerful, despite how far PowerShell has come.

[@Ratselmeister]

Tried to download all my i cloud pictures in 2023. i had to select every single one them. Nothing like ctrl a or similar on their webapp. Apple usability sucks but the hide it behind fancy grafics.

[@benjamindepaz8429]

On Mac: 1) Apple hasn’t changed for an OS Upgrade in a very long time. All major OS upgrades are free. 2) Apple does pay a bounty for finding software vulnerabilities. 3) macOS has prompts for admin access, but unlike windows where you can just click an allow button, you have to authenticate in the dialog. Some access will let you use your fingerprint to authenticate when the prompt comes up, but some other areas won’t even allow it at all and make you actually type in your password. In the terminal, Mac uses Sudo too.

[@Kyuunex]

I disagree. MAN pages are really useful. If they are too hard to understand, there's also the Arch Wiki. And there's also a forum for many major Linux distros, like Arch Forum. If that's not enough and you are the type who prefers to pay others for support, there's Red Hat. Just because they are not the 'official' Linux routes, does not make the Linux ecosystem as a whole worse. The same can be said about user interfaces, having an 'official' user interface makes no sense because Linux is just the kernel, and in the broad ecosystem, we have lots of choices. I'd even argue that KDE Plasma 5 is a much better and much more polished user interface than what we are stuck with on Windows.

[@DavesGarage]

Nobody said they were hard to understand. I said they're insufficient. So yeah, it does make the whole ecosystem worse. It doesn't make it "bad", of course. Just worse.

[@see-sharp]

remember: STUCK ON you like it or not, Windows is just that interface xD

[@philstephes]

@@DavesGarage the MSDN is terrible, a good chunk of the API calls don't match the behaviors on the MSDN for starters.

[@DavesGarage]

@@philstephes A good chunk of 100,000 articles are wrong? Name 3.

[@Andre-vn1sb]

>> I'd even argue that KDE Plasma 5 is a much better and much more polished user interface than what we are stuck with on Windows. I 100% disagree for desktop-environments - each major-upgrade on kde you have years(!) of massive kde-bugs. see kde/pasma versions 2.0/4.0/5.0. when i dont upgrade distro to that what distribution is deliver i dont get new applications. so i have to deal with all this bugs, or have distro hopping or desktop-hopping to gnome/xfce - thats situation on gnu/linux desktop - since 20years. only way to get _stable_ distro without that is debian (but old apps), or enterprise desktops for much more money then windows. of course is gnu/linux much richer on features - but no kde release had ever better usability gui in sum (!) then windows in same time in sum. because that situations i switched back from gnu/linux kde to windows on main desktop after 2years gnu/linux only on desktop.

[@AlnisSmidchens]

On the out-of-the-box UX experience: I got a Lemur Pro running Pop!_OS (Ubuntu-based Linux distribution) from System76 about a year ago and have found it to be more convenient than the default Windows shell. The workspace system is more ergonomic for me than in Windows, and window navigation (Alt + Tab, Alt + Tilde, and Alt + Esc) gives some more precision when I have lots of things open, not to mention the toggleable tiling mode. I think that Windows has a pretty good default shell and is simple to understand, but with Linux distributions, the wide range of options lets you find something that feels "just right" for your own workflow, albeit sometimes with a longer learning curve. It's always nice to hear your thoughts! I figured I would add my two cents. I recently discovered your channel and like it a ton. Thanks for the great videos.

[@unggrabb]

Two things came out of Berkley University 1. LSD 2. UNIX This is not a coincidence

[@ev.c6]

As a developer who always used Linux, I like windows stability when performing upgrade. With Linux you never knew if a driver would stop working of something else would break

[@nonenothingnull]

That's on hardware to blame. Before you try to retort, refer to Linus's finger to what I mean by that.

[@dominik2327]

I will only disagree about the user interface part. I found Windows UI inconsistent, complex and annoying with all those features that I'd never use (like Cortana for instance) There's a lot of legacy stuff in Windows that feels really out of place and it lacks many many features like the dark mode is just not working with many apps, it cannot adjust color temperature based on the sunset, there's no way to customize input device behavior (at least I failed when trying to do so) for example 3 finger touchpad tap action, Windows shell customizations are very limited and requires making dirty hacks. The theme though is pretty nice but only in few builtin apps like the new control center. All the rest looks ugly. It's years before the level of Mac OS or even KDE Plasma.

[@PedroHenriqueQuiteteBarreto]

At configuration level, I agree with you. But at the daily use level, it is really solid.

[@OldePhart]

Sinofsky really screwed us all with his changes. It will take a while to undo that mess... and now that windows is likely to become a subscription model, I would expect more bad things you have to buy your way out of.

[@hawkcrave]

A lot of UI preference is subjective. I really like the Windows 10 UI and find it a pleasure to work with, at least visually anyways. With windows having 17 different ways to do the same thing or get to the same place (like changing the network card setting) it can make it confusing, specially when doing it one way only has 90% of the settings compared to doing it the other way. As for the touchpad, I can’t speak for Linux since I’ve never used a Linux GUI on a laptop, the Mac touchpad is soooo much better than Windows. I don’t know if this is a hardware or software thing, but I find it frustrating using a touchpad in windows compared to the Mac, which works so nice. Also, with Windows, the touchpad capabilities changes depending on the hardware. Some support two finger double tapping, some don’t. One of the things holding Windows back is Microsoft’s desire to maintain backward compatibility, although I understand why they do it. So many people have such a hard time dealing with anything different and they get frustrated easily, when all they have to do is simply read what it says on the screen to figure things out lol. I think it may be time to try a Linux GUI again to see what it’s like on a desktop for daily use.

[@dominik2327]

​@@hawkcrave Touchpad on Linux used to suck, because it was utilizing old piece of shit Synaptics driver for X11, but now we have generic driver called Libinput (it handles mice, touchpads, touchscreens etc) and it got mature enough so I can say that using touchpad on Linux, at least to my experience (and devices I used), is really good now. Also the new driver is not tied to X11 so it can be use without it (I wish some day we'll finally get rid of X :/) Windows got that a way better too! (I don't use it, but sometimes I test it just for fun, or I use other people machines). In times of Windows 7 it was absolute garbage - what you can tell by looking at users even today. After one attempt nobody tried again. Most of laptop users I see on Windows simply have all the time mouse connected and even touchpad disabled in BIOS. To me it was usable, but I couldn't figure out how to set it up so that touchpad was disabled while typing on keybord. It should be default behavior, so maybe that was a bug...

[@TheBetrunkenaffe]

I would also disagree on the UI part from Windows 8 onwards, the move to tablet-ification and splitting control center into settings/control center has really destroyed the usability for myself. UI is always going to be a subjective thing but I feel like since Windows 8 was released, Windows has really backslid in accessibility significantly and a preinstalled Windows vs preinstalled Linux (Plasma/Cinnamon/Gnome) is going to be the same for your basic user and Windows worse for more advanced users. All that said, Windows support via 3rd party applications and drivers is still better.

[@psykka]

KDE, XFCE, GNOME, Cinnamon, MATE is pretty good linux GUI, everything can be customized, I think the point should have gone to linux for the flexibility

[@mihailmojsoski4202]

I'd shit on GNOME, but GNOME 40 looks pretty sexy KDE for life tho

[@richardalvarez2390]

I purge off Gnome 3 packages, every time I see them

[@boemlauw]

@@mihailmojsoski4202 Guys, I found another ! That's the second one this year ! /s

[@LordOfNihil]

my favorite desktop environment is terminal.

[@RealGengarTV]

Looks are subjective of course but .. IMO both windows and OSx has an arm and a legg over Linux GUI's I've seen..

[@user-if6hq3sk9n]

As a cybersecurity professional- Windows is such a huge security vulnerability.

[@MattRiding]

Always clearly explained, logical arguments based on a huge depth of knowledge and experience. Love the channel and your videos!

[@notanimufailzone]

All major OS updates are now free from Apple on the Mac side of things as long as the device is reasonably supported. This actually extends to iOS and iPadOS btw, just wanted to clear that up.

[@DavesGarage]

True enough that in a major verison like OS X, it's all been free!

[@dalgibbard]

Though they are dropping support for devices a little sooner than maybe they should... There's mods to enable deployment of newer OSX versions on "unsupported" hardware, which to me says it's not a hardware choice, but a business choice. I'm not keen on the landfill effects of those business choices :(

[@cromulence]

@@dalgibbard on the contrary, I think that their OS support for devices is exceptional, especially on the mobile side. macOS isn't quite as good, especially when you consider a freakin' 2007 iMac can run Windows 10 still, but I appreciate that hardware moves quicker in the PC space. I expect that with the move to Apple silicon, devices will be supported for a lot longer.

[@mfx1]

With Apple the cost comes from hardware/software obsolescence, upgrade the OS and existing software stops working or the hardware crawls to a halt, how often does that happen with Windows/Linux ?

[@dalgibbard]

@@mfx1 and new hardware is much more than the $99 advertised in this video 😅

[@Jamesaepp]

"I don't like the fallacy of more eyeballs means more bugs (security issues) will get fixed." Didn't you use this same fallacy (argumentum ad populum) when comparing stack exchange to MSDN?

[@DavesGarage]

No, because I'm not simply saying it's better because it's more popular. I'm saying that popularity has concrete consequences. So no fallacy! It has other consequences too, like the size of the app library, and that wouldn't be a fallacy either.

[@ItzJamesx]

@@DavesGarage ​ This is my anecdotal experience as a college student who uses both Windows and Linux (take with a grain). I find it much easier to get answers about my questions and issues with Linux than Windows. The Linux community is generally more knowledgeable about how the OS works and more willing to openly share information (and vitriol). The smaller user base is definitely a factor. Despite that there are many a great Wiki and documentation efforts out there. TLDP, man7, archwiki, gentoowiki, the kernel documentation. Lots of great resources out there.

[@nicolaramoso3286]

@@ItzJamesx I completely agree with you. Also if you are a regular user and you're having some problems with Windows you might write a post to the Microsoft forum to then receive a useless response from a mod like "run these suite of diagnostics test" or "restore the system", whereas if you're on Linux they just say "run this bash command and you'll be fine". Still the Microsoft documentation is god-like.

[@Toxicity1987]

@@nicolaramoso3286 Ever read the RedHat Documentation? Suse also has a great one. And same like with MSDN, you need to pay to get access. But beside the access you also get a very professional support team. In that regard, Linux is on pair with Windows.

[@bknesheim]

@@DavesGarage With number of app's are important then Android should be included in a a three way compare.

[@dickindynamo]

Closed vs open source security issues aside, I personally don't believe that an operating system that spies on you and collects personal data is secure. That's the main appeal of open source software, for me at least.

[@apianbelle1343]

I currently use linux, specifically zorinOS because I'm a game developer. I do use windows for things like gamemaker, but otherwise, software development or not, I use linux.

[@BWGPEI]

You interest me with this one. Been a Microsoft user since DOS days (in my professional life) - now mostly Linux in my retirement digs. You and I could tell stories all day long about MS Windows situations. I haven't enough background yet to do that for Linux - I just use it and mostly enjoy it (Mint if it matters).

[@arthurmorgan8966]

Dave: "Experimented in college" 🤣it has different meaning for some people

[@MichaelMaxwell747]

I experimented In jr high and high school

[@hpsmash77]

@@MichaelMaxwell747 I hope I get to experiment too

[@josephgaviota]

Dear Dave, I find your vids very interesting. I always think of Unix/Linux as a "server side" environment, and Windows/MacOS as client side environments. I would NEVER argue that linux on the desktop is superior to purpose-build Mac/Windows. HOWEVER, I've spent 40 years working on the server side, in Solaris/unix/Linux ... and can't imagine using anything else on the server side. In your view, is that a position you've thought about? Would that change your ratings? Either way, Have a happy New Year !!

[@jenpsakiscousin4589]

Linux today is waaaaayyy much more user friendly on the Desktop than it was even back in 2005, forget the 1990s.

[@MarkusSeidl]

Dave: ...Windows UI is professionally designed, tested, ... Me: Windows Vista.

[@brinckau]

I don't get Dave's point. It's professionally designed for sure, but for whom is it designed? Probably not for the kind of users Dave was talking about at the beginning of the video.

[@user-xr3rb6pn9m]

That was a blooper, but they rectified it just a couple of years later with Windows 7

[@goku445]

Have you tried Windows 10 recently? The last half decent UI from M$ was seven.

[@wordart_guian]

have you seen the windows vista UI? it was perfection. Vista was criticized for things that do not include its UI.

[@boemlauw]

Trying to stop Windows ME from swallowing a bottle of gasoline.

[@see-sharp]

I've had a teacher who was an expert in security and i must say i honestly disagree with you, like he used to say "if having the source code is enough to hack your system, the system isn't secure on the first place". On the Linux/BSD world, security is achieved by pure testing and not by obfuscation, it's in the architecture itself, not isolated code. And it is not just about black hat hackers, i can run my system and feel safe with the code, if i can't verify what is running on my machine this is already a security flaw on the first place on some schools of thought. I can understand your point and i respect your work, that's why i subscribed on the first place, but your perspective on this is too shallow imo. Just putting everything on "have the biggest market share" doesn't explain the new m1 viruses or smbv1 exploitation. As we analyzed source code for some viruses a lot of them just relied on some archaic default option who windows still uses for... God knows why, compatibility maybe? Linux is used everyday and is the "go to" for some enviroments and even there there is no comparisson, like my teacher asked us "grab 1 enviroment which Linux is the most common system and imagine Windows being open source there, you think windows would be safer?" Most malware on Linux are specific for a kernel vesion (most on 3.something) or a specific tool, or a combination of enviroment+version... You have 1 system, with 1 corporation producing, with 1 enviroment, the old "don't put all your eggs in one basket" is well known in security too. From having the option to implement zfs and keep my files safe or customizing my system to run just the code needed and minimize exposure for exploitation, you can't just fo that on Windows, if you are running Windows you are running it all. I could talk about this for a month but my point is "this system have the biggest market share" and "who gets first, the white hats or the black hats" just doesn't cut. And if "who gets first" matters then the fair thing to expect is that you have the code just for you, you should be able to minimize all risks before anyone get the hands on it right? Right? Sorry but it won't happen. Having or not having the source code doesn't make a lot of difference for someone with bad intentions, if there is a flaw they will get there. Period. Edir: Thanks for the likes And btw... Polished user interface? Comparing to what? xterm or KDE? We don't have 1 user interface...

[@andljoy]

Your teacher was 100% correct. I mean closed source CAN be secure ofc it can but if there is a hole that say one alphabet organisation CIA FBI or whatever know about it could be exploited for decades without anyone knowing or it could even be by design. That is orders of magnitude less likely with open source. I mean how many exploits have been found in Open BSD in the last 15-20 years ? 3 ? 4 ? Not bloody many !

[@laharl2k]

Dude, ill take windows98 over linux mint's cinnamon or mate any day. Linux mint UI is still missing a lot even after all the things theyve added. Windows, even windows98 is still way ahead of what linux can offer in the present.

[@HisVirusness]

​@@laharl2k Yeah, Cinnamon is trash. XFCE is where it's at: Lightweight, customizable, sleek, and the Whisker Menu is a great substitute for a Start Button. You should have went with XFCE when downloading a Mint ISO.

[@laharl2k]

@@HisVirusness XFCE is worst than cinnamon, sure its lightweight but it wont run on 32mb of ram so "lightweight" is relative. In windows, things work, you dont get half functional menus or features and we are still missing lots of features that have been in windows since day one. Cinnamon, mate or xfce, they are all missing lots of stuff.

[@slendi9623]

My ideal desktop enviorement is one that focuses on keyboard useaage such as dwm, i3 or bspwm

[@Mercurio-Morat-Goes-Bughunting]

Windows support might get more view on their support, but they get a lot less actionable answers. On average, the more serious problems I run into on my Linux box take less than 30 minutes to resolve because someone's already asked the question and the answer is already out there. Many of the more serious problems I've run into on Windows (e.g. no load order enforcement, inconsistency in peripheral port assignments causing controllers to swap around at random, broken printscreen functionality etc.) have dozens, sometimes hundreds of related queries and not a single useful answer. In that sense, Windows support lacks the quality to be taken seriously. Windows upgrades are another sour point because they're often the culprit. A Linux upgrade does sometimes come with some minor new features (i.e. actual features that a user would actually want and can use to do something that can't already be done with the OS) but doesn't take anything away. The problem on the Windows side of the fence is that feature upgrades are all about subtracting or hiding features instead of adding features. Where we once could mark update files to be skipped (and not considered again) we are now forced to download and install an unwanted update unless we resort to either "Trust me. Update now and uninstall the update later" OR() surf the web for the registry hack which blocks the update in question. This is assuming that the user already knows how to use the policy settings to get control of Windows update so it's not auto-installing anything that comes it's way. Windows upgrades (not update) frequently reinstal unwanted and removed stuff behind your back, too. And the list of unwanted parasitic applications which can't be removed keeps getting longer and longer (Cortana, Microsoft Edge, Microsoft Store, Video Editor, Windows Media Player, Snipper, etc.); all software which do something the user doesn't need either because it's redundant, often unnecessary fiddle factor (Snipper), already done better by another application (e.g. Video Editor, Microsoft Edge) or because it's not in service of the user but instead in service of external third parties (e.g. Microsoft Store) - or otherwise doing stuff that has nothing to do with what the user can use it for (Windows Media Player) and sometimes, because the aforementioned shenanigans leave no room for some quirky geek humour (Cortana). That's why people hate windows updates. The useful stuff keeps disappearing and the useless trashware keeps piling up....or coming back. One thing that Linux, namely Ubuntu, gets wrong is to announce updates with a messagebox that steals focus and top z-index position from the application in use; without regard for whether that application is being run full-screen / full-screen windowed or not. So, if you're trying to capture game footage when an update drops, it not only ruins the footage but disconnects keyboard and mouse control from the game and relays it into the offending messagebox - so it also has the potential to undo hours of preparation for a video clip then randomly cancel the update. To date, I haven't seen Windows do this ... and, for the sanity of Sheogorath, I hope it never does.

[@motoryzen]

well put on all of it.

[@dee23gaming]

Me: Gets a complex problem on Windows 10 AskMicrosoft: Reboot Me: Stupids, everyone does that first thing AskMicrosoft: Do updates Me: The update probably caused the issue AskMicrosoft: Can you elaborate on your question? Me: I did AskMicrosoft: Okay, so what you need to do is update Windows Me: But it is already on the latest version AskMicrosoft: (last comment on 13 March 2015)

[@shrirangkahale]

I switched for windows 10 to debian this year.. now I use Arch btw

[@SpookySkeleton738]

You can't run from Gentoo forever...

[@goku445]

@@SpookySkeleton738 hahaha xD

[@sanjay_swain]

Arch now have GUI installation tool which is quite cool but I still love having more control over my installation so command line installation is the way to go

[@realtimestatic]

I don’t think you can say linux distros are not as usable as Linux from the ui as there are many very much usable desktop environments so that shouldn’t really be a point for windows

[@joschafinger126]

Absolutely. Plus, the tyranny of the GUI in Windows means that for just about anything you need to click through layer after layer of menus where in Linux you can get the same job done with a simple command line. Don't know how? Well you're sure to find it online. Linux DEs such as KDE Plasma are so powerful and so configurable that you can make them 100% yours, and the KRunner in Plasma means you only need a start menu when you don't know the name of the application you're looking for. And as for installing software... Well, app stores such as those in Manjaro, Ubuntu or MXLinux make it way easier than anything on offer in Windows. Plus, there's always the command line. And as for kernels... Some distros, such as Manjaro, allow you to keep various kernels installed, add new or erase old ones by simply clicking and typing in your password. Update didn't work out? Well, just go back to the old kernel. Plus, upgrades not working hardly ever happens. Just recently, Ubuntu put an upgrade on hold because problems had been reported for four (!) individual machines -decade-old hacked Apple laptops, to be exact. They fixed it, then rolled it out.

[@dinoscheidt]

Have never heard a Linux Desktop UI done a usability / panel study on accessibility with elderlies. What you and me say is “very much usable” might be not at all for others.

[@joschafinger126]

@@dinoscheidt OK. I've never heard of a similar study done for Windows either, but that might be because I've never looked for one. Still, GNOME and XFCE are specifically designed for people with issues such as vision problems, and most Linux GUIs are so configurable that a bit of help setting it up should generally be more than enough. And then there's the tyranny of the GUI once more: clicking through twenty layers of menu to locate a tick box is an awful lot of mess compared to the following: 1. Open a terminal 2. Paste the following code: sudo blablabla 3. Press [Enter] and type your password when prompted. 4. Have a good day.

[@realtimestatic]

@@dinoscheidt im talking from experience and for people who just want to use a computer they can keep using windows since they're already used to it but for a new user a lot of Linux distros feel better than windows

[@jasincolegrove4798]

Dave's point is Linux doesn't come with a UI. It's specific and third party and comes with distributions. Try and find windows without a UI. That's the point...

[@jonathanrealman8415]

Maybe I am a bit out there. But I think for the average user, windows is a lot harder to learn than Linux. Windows gets a head start because the marketing team was smart to get it into every school and every college and every office. But I for one learned more about Linux in a year than windows in a decade, and when me and my girlfriend moved together it took her a week to learn all the ins and outs of my Linux systems. With her fixing minor issues on her own.

[@xxnoxx-xp5bl]

Can't say that I agree with Windows having the better sell/user interface. Since Microsoft hav tried to unify Xbox, mobile and desktop in a way literally nobody asked for it appears to be less intuitive than ever.

[@thegardenofeatin5965]

Much of Microsoft's UI design technique since I was a teenager has been layering additional meaningless menu windows over the actual settings dialog that has been present since Windows 98. The menu you used to access by right clicking My Computer and clicking Properties is now right click Computer, click Properties, a big window full of graphics opens, and there are three hyperlink looking things up in the corner, click the one that says "My Windows Experience" and then on the resulting OTHER window that pops up, scroll to the bottom and pick from the horizontally justified list that's difficult to scan with your eyes "Change a setting." Then that same old, unchanged menu pops up. This they term "usability."

[@xxnoxx-xp5bl]

@@thegardenofeatin5965 Yeah, it's an interesting way to refer to a cluster-fuck ain't it?

[@DoozyBytes]

The only part I disagree strongly on is the usability point to windows....I’m sorry but you gave a point to operating system that has 5 different settings panels and counting. Unless windows gets its things together and unifies the setting panel, Linux wins this one

[@existence.5806]

💯👍🏻

[@thesupercoach]

I think that's the first time I've heard anyone accuse Microsoft of good documentation.

[@nickwallette6201]

Haha.. Funny, but MSDN is pretty decent. Not perfect, but then neither are the man pages.

[@r12fre0n]

MSDN was VERY good in the Visual Studio 6 days.

[@thesupercoach]

@@nickwallette6201 Man pages leave a lot to be desired, but there's plenty of very good documentation for most open source projects online these days. I always struggled finding help for MS products in the past, so I'm probably biased. Since they started moving to embrace open source, MS has certainly been a lot better in their documentation. Typescript is a good example.

[@klaxoncow]

No, I'm a Linux guy, but I'll give it to him that MSDN was about the best documentation out there. Some of Dave's opinions, though, do seem a little out-of-date. Open source projects have improved since. And MSDN ain't necessarily the best of the best anymore. But, for sure, it genuinely once was. I have the opposite bias towards Linux, but I'll concede that, back in the days when I coded for Windows, MSDN was good, where the corresponding open source alternatives typically sucked. But time has moved on, and lessons have been learnt. It ain't such a clear win to Microsoft anymore. (And, in the Linux world, many companies are all about "paid support". Product is free, but if you want support, here's our prices. So, again, Dave seems a bit out-of-date here. Another out-of-date thing is the idea that there's no "target value" to hacking Linux - billions of mobile device running Android say otherwise. Yeah, Windows owns the desktop, but the desktop ain't the biggest player anymore. Oh, and another out-of-date thing that another comment reminds me of - Apple haven't charged for MacOS updates for a good decade now. That used to be their policy, but it's all free updates, like everyone else, these days. I think the problem is that Dave's opinions, as expressed in this video, are his "frozen" view of the world, as it was when he retired. It needs a refresh to bring it back up-to-date again. A lot of this video I was thinking "yes, that WAS true, not so much anymore", as a running theme. He's totally right... about the situation a decade or so back in time.)

[@LRM12o8]

I find their documentations to often be quite useful as well. Unlike the mods on the support forum who could just be replaced by bots for everyone's good at this point!

[@gnagyusa]

10:08 - Not true. KDE is a much better, more user-friendly desktop environment than Windows. My then-65 year old mom who never used a computer before (we had to start with "what's a mouse") learned to use Linux in about 2 weeks. Email, basic word processing etc. Then, she tried Windows. Her last email for a while, said: "This Windows thing is so much more complicated. You have to push a lot more buttons to do the same thing".

[@nazgullinux6601]

Regarding security, the careful scrutiny of merge requests of any open source developer usually ensures no harmful or careless code gets added to the master repository.

[@ThatBrubakerFellow]

Hi Dave, great Video. I honestly would've never switched to 100% Linux on my PCs if it wasn't for windows 10.

[@ConfidentGrips]

It's not bad once you disable all the telemetry and bs

[@deultima]

@@ConfidentGrips Well that's the problem isn't it? You have to disable it in the first place... That's actually why I finally made the switch to Linux, I just got tired of fighting my OS all the time.

[@DavesGarage]

Ironically it's Windows 10 and the WSL2 that allowed me to both be on Linux and Windows at the same time!

[@coatlessali]

@@DavesGarage Does WSL2 support GUI applications? I may consider tinkering with it but if it can't do that, I'd rather just get a second GPU and a KVM switch and do a VFIO Windows install in QEMU.

[@affieuk]

@@coatlessali I think not, maybe people for using x-windows or something, but directly I'm not sure. I haven't checked in a while to take this with a large grain of salt.

[@ACCPhil]

My experience with MS support hasn't been great. I once actually did find a compiler bug in VC++ but it took three weeks of back and forward to get them to acknowledge it and then no fix until a later version. I suppose I should check if it still exists ...

[@jas88cam]

I didn’t have support access at the time, but I hit a BugCheck in NTFS access a while ago: as well as filename, in the Native API you can open files by their MFT file number … except it later triggered a bug in the AV product I had installed at the time. (From memory, I think it took a copy of the filename on open, then tried to free that copy on close - which failed horribly if the name hadn’t been captured in the first place.) Not really an OS bug as such, just an unfortunate interaction. Thinking back years later, I’m left wondering if that might be exploitable somehow to use that AV kernel driver as an access route …

[@RalphHightower]

From 1985 to 1991, I worked on UNIX systems, the NCR Tower 16/32, and 32 while working for NCR E&M-Columbia. In 1994, my wife bought me a Sun SPARCStation IPX, with a 27" color CRT, CDROM, and tape drive at a company salvage sale for me to keep my UNIX skills up to date. I bought a 3 bay SCSI cabinet and SCSI drives from former NCR coworkers. A PDP-11/45 in his living room? I'm jealous. An 11/45 is on my computer bucket list. I have a DEC VAXStation II/GPX that a former coworker rescued from the dumpster; the company had failed and was shutting down. I want to fire it up and install a BSD OS on it.

[@bruh12869]

Security concerns with windows are not from outside but from the inside, at this point in time windows is just bloatware and spyware, and on almost any given linux distro you can customize it all to your liking so you dont have proprietary software on your pc

[@programorprogrammed]

On one point, The best operating system for Grandma is in fact a Linux. The general interface she only clicks on three things, the expansive software ecosystem that hosts her five programs, and scammers logging in to steal her money, all makes for a poor choice of Windows. A specific non general interface, software management that's invisible, and a general fu policy to any exe, makes linux an efficent fast light and reliable surfboard for grandma.

[@lal12]

I agree I installed linux on my mothers and my grandfathers machines. It is free, it is faster on their bit older hardware and they don't use anything else than a browser anyway.

[@lightarmanov6266]

I think there is a study on ease of use for people with no predispoition to tech on old people but u couldn't find it

[@jrstf]

I installed Linux for an intellectually disabled elderly gentleman. Overall it's been going pretty well. There are some sticking points. It occasionally redirects the HDMI TV audio to the motherboard audio output which go nowhere. It took awhile to train him to set it back. In addition, Linux/KDE has several volume controls, all of which must be turned up to get sound, having multiple places where failure can occur greatly complicates the matter. I have yet to teach him Libre Office writer, even though he is requesting it, because I lack confidence in Linux to handle his inability to punctuate, spell, or organize thoughts given that his patience lasts about 3 seconds before he calls his Congressman for help (mostly they are polite when he calls them with inane questions). I don't know how this would compare to Windows as I've not used Windows.

[@lal12]

@@jrstf I know the Audio Issue can also occur on Windows. On Linux (unlike Windows) you could hardcode it in your pulse audio config though. As far as Volume Knobs go I am only aware of two, one per programm and a master one, which is the same as in windows.

[@jrstf]

@@lal12 - I wonder if some OS opinionated people might result from simply being confused and clueless. Well, I have some clue, just not much.

[@chlorobyte_projects]

I'd say Windows is worse to use for grandmas. The only thing that sticks out is the "software support", aka proprietary and often worse software than the alternatives that Linux offers. The UI is the exact opposite of polished, and it's lacking on features such as installing updates while the system is running and then restarting at will. Not to mention it's significantly more difficult to write trojans for Linux because one would need to manually run it as root, and you (usually) don't install software by running an installer, so you have no need to run a random executable as root unless you know what you're doing. And that's not even touching on the general instability of Windows.

[@MegaManNeo]

It may not be polished but so is the Linux desktop. Plus even if Windows 10 with its _rolling_ design changes is inconsistent on itself, at least everyone who uses it has some idea of where to dig for stuff. With Linux it's like I have to go into the bureau first, then fill out a paper with very bureaucratic and stiff questions that only professionals understand and hope the person who feels responsible is actually going to help you. As much fun as Linux can be, I stopped recommending it to others a long time ago unless their machines are very old and they can't afford anything better.

[@caseyomah]

@@MegaManNeo Once you really get in the linux mindset finding the proper conf file is quite reliable, Windows on the other hand, (in this case I refer to third-party programs) You have to look at least in three places to find where settings are stored (install path, $appdata%, registry, subdirectory in %userprofile%, etc)

[@MegaManNeo]

@@caseyomah I'm using Linux ever since late 2003, starting on KDE3.3 and most of the NT6.x days even exclusive without Windows being anywhere on my harddrive. I still don't get Linux's file system hierarchy entirely and prefer to use my DE's file manager to look up files and to edit those with my graphical editor of choice over using the damn terminal. That's what annoys me about Linux albeit I can deal with it by now. Don't get me wrong, the terminal has its place and some tasks are better done that way even under Windows 10 (installing software? Just use chocolatey) but if I have the choice I'll just set up my browser, mail client, Steam, music player, somedays update software using a small helper tool in the _taskbar_ and call it a day.

[@XtianApi]

This has quickly become my favorite channel. Doing the led build now

[@Title42.83]

I just saw the LED video as well two days ago. I thought my daughter would want to build it but she hasn't called back yet. Unfortunately I don't have a bench anymore.

[@XtianApi]

@@Title42.83 just trying to rebuild after a move. I can relate

[@andrewr7820]

On the topic of updates: Windows: - Positively _thrashes_ the disk trying to figure out which updates to apply. - As you noted, updates can require multiple reboots. - Clean removal of updates is sometimes problematic. - What constitutes and "Update" vs an "Upgrade" is completely opaque. - The nature and reason for a given update requires drilling down 2 levels to get the info, which even at that level is STILL infuriatingly opaque. Linux: - Most distributions use package managers which check installed packages against versions in defined repositories. This is generally very fast and the subsequent download and installation is likewise efficient. - Packages can be cleanly removed. - In general, the only updates that requires a reboot are the kernel itself and display drivers. - Updates include Changelogs which specify the purpose of an update. - UpDates and UpGrades are clearly delineated from one another.

[@GodIsTheReason]

Hi Dave, I find myself in strong disagreement with "Linux itself lacks a proper user interface beyond the command line". If you take this literally, it's true, because linux itself is just a kernel. However, you don't have to stick with the user interface that is provided to you by your distro. There are several others that you can install and swap out and fine-tune to your heart's content. For instance, I particularly like tiling window managers such as qtile, it really works wonders for my productivity. And I really like that I had the choice to pick exactly what's the most fitting for me personally. But I also disagree that windows' user interface is particularly good and professional. Who thought it was a good idea to order menu items in W10 alphabetically rather than categorically? (like most linux WMs do) And back when I used W8, I thought the "metro" interface was absolutely terrible, and I'm sure I'm not only one who thinks that. First thing I did was install classic shell to replace it. With linux you get an ecosystem where you have so much choice in terms of exactly what user interface you find to be the most useful and intuitive. What's there not to like?

[@osamaanees8406]

I don't even know programming and was just curious about Linux. The desktop environment is so much better then windows. You can switch and even add any environment side by side. Gnome style environment can never be seen in windows and effects/transitions of closing a windows. And tiling window manager is non existent in windows.

[@osamaanees8406]

@@tbird81 you can literally make a desktop environment look and feel like windows does that make it ugly? You can make it better of you want to.

[@GodIsTheReason]

@@tbird81 Unfamiliar maybe (assuming you've looked at enough options to make that big generalization). Like how food from another culture can upset your stomach just because of a form of temporary culture shock. Whenever I find myself in a situation where I have to use windows again, it always strikes me how ugly it looks too; seemingly uglier than I remember. I really don't think it can be said that linux desktops are ugly. There is a whole subreddit called /r/unixporn... take a look at that and see if you still think same!

[@JerodMiller4510]

Thanks for all these great videos! It’s really valuable getting the view point of a senior Microsoft developer responding to things the community is curious about. I genuinely think these videos are so good they will be of value to future historians looking at computer history. That said, I do disagree with your security through obscurity argument about Linux. I think you’re right that it’s all about eye balls. For more obscure projects there’s some truth about openness providing more visibility of security holes without anyone actually looking at the code to close them. But the Linux kernel and similar open source projects get extensive scrutiny from a multitude experts coming from diverse perspectives. Also, I suspect high level threat actors do have copies of Microsoft’s source code so the benefit of obscurity can be illusionary. After twenty years I switched from Windows to Linux and am afraid I now have the zeal of a new convert :)

[@jbird4478]

I disagree that the mass use of the administrator account is not the operating system's fault. This is the default when installing Windows and with a target audience that is not tech savvy at all that is bad design. And even then, they could have required more steps than simply clicking OK. Put differently, blaming the ignorance of the user is not fair if you specifically market to ignorant users.

[@axelBr1]

In the 1990s I worked on a VAX/VMS cluster, it was really cool to be able to log in on one machine and run an application on a different machine, including applications that use a GUI. Even now Windows can't support multiple logins each with their own GUI.

[@tankermottind]

On the other hand Windows is not saddled with X11 which has those features in exchange for being a total feculent abomination of a software product (and Wayland is still not ready for nVidia users...)

[@niamaru2]

Im no programing expert so I'll just point out something that I noticed. The UI experience in windows 10 is far inferior to KDE or Cinnamon. The amount of redundant clicks that you need to do to access a setting, for example, is inexcusable. Why? Because windows 7 proved MS were capable of making a UI that is succinct and to the point. So no, the windos 10 desktop environment is not superior to the many offerings on Linux simply by looking at how eclectic it is.

[@steevewhitehead1416]

Linux DE are generally good, customizable. I give up on windows lack of choice and reinstall of programs I just removed. Windows spy ware- not interested and virus etc. Always Linux now, even if I can't run some apps there are other solutions.

[@chrishayden4469]

I didn't want to spam the thread, but I know a lot of non technical people who liked one of the linux gui shells (elementary, popOS or gnome) far more then windows gui with most sighting it being bloated, hard to navigate and full of frustrating non-features like cortana. Honestly windows has really lost its way when it comes to its gui, imho.

[@satibel]

>you have to reboot linux for an upgrade. depending on what you call a reboot, and how you are setup, you can often not do a full reboot. there's live patching, which makes new system calls use the updated version. there's kexec, which basically boots the new kernel, so it's a reboot from the point of view of the kernel, but it doesn't fully shutdown the computer, as it doesn't do any device (re)initialization, and keeps the previous kernel's context. and there's updating the kernel file, which will only apply the update once you reboot the computer. (so you'll still be running the old version till you reboot.) but you won't need to reboot immediately.

[@BrianOrange]

It is important to note that Live Kernel patching is now common place.

[@ericsnis]

I usually run Windows accounts as standard user even when I was sysadmin. IT staff had separate admin accounts for doing admin tasks as needed. If a UAC prompt came up, we either asked for it or something needed some serious side eyeing.