DCS NEW SA-5 Gammon SAM & Israeli Style SEAD Tactics!

[@andrewchr]

We certainly heard the S-200 in Cyprus 2 years ago. A double loud bang after midnight and it shook the ground. It’s proximity fused detonated before it hit the ground and it got scattered for several miles in the mountains north of Nicosia.

[@reichenwald-gm4qd]

The Sa5 we got is actually handicapped by the track radar. The missile can reach significantly further than track radar can track. You can actually see it in the mission Editor

[@macieksoft]

It was like that IRL. The limiting factor IRL was usually the signal strength as received by GSN seeker. Many factors could affect that. Using FM mode (needed to track beaming/notching) targets was dropping it a lot. Using FKM mode needed to do ranging was also dropping it. This is why most of the time radar was used in CW mode, making it track only in velocity and angle. Also GSN had hard time tracking receding targets, it required a lot stronger signal to track receding target. When it comes to jamming missile had HOJ for tracking noise jamming target, however VGPO could be used to drop the tracking and force the operator to manually reacquire target in velocity and angles. SA-5 could also be outmaneuvered, it really wasn't designed to fight fighters (fighters had low RCS and could maneuver quite well). Generally speaking GSN was haveing much harder time tracking targets than SNR (the fancy term to describe FCR). It was quite common that SNR could track target quite well, but GSN had troubles picking it up. Sometimes missiles were launched being unable to track the target with the hope that they will pick the target inflight when they get closer and increase the relative velocity (sort of lock on after launch). It is worth to mention that the bigger closure velocity = better GSN tracking. I suggest you all try SA-5 in Sam Simulator.

[@fargo007]

Nice job on this one. I'm a RW guy but found myself watching the whole thing just because it was so complete and well presented.

[@codyjames3179]

Launch a group of F-14's ahead of the rest of the fleet. Stay low. Run in to about 40 miles. Pop up on the site. Throw 4 TOLD's each at the general area. SA-5 doesnt know what to do but shoot at everything. Oh no, SA-5 is all out of danger sticks. F-18's come in to clean it all up. Best thing ive ever done in this sim.

[@papakilo-2750]

I dont know who who I am, I dont know what am I, I dont know where am I, all I know is that I must kill -confused SA-5, probably.

[@yyorophff786]

How many missiles does sa5 have

[@Petidani0330]

@@yyorophff786 If the question is still relevant, it can only hold 1 missile per launcher. So in a default configuration of 6 launchers (like in this video), the SA-5 only has 6 missiles total. However, if you place one or two logistics trucks near the SAM site in the Mission Editor and give it enough time (it takes a couple minutes, I'm not sure exactly how long), it will actually reload. It's mostly an issue if you don't disable the site, only "starve" it (you make it launch all 6 of its missiles and then trash them all as shown in the video), get inside its range, go on with your mission, forget about the site, and in the meantime the SA-5 reloads and launches another missile at you. But even then it's not too hard to evade this missile, because your jet is always going to be much more maneuverable than that heavy thing. As Spud said in the video, the SA-5 was developed with high-altitude bombers and recon planes in mind, not supersonic fighters at 5000 feet. If you want a more challenging SAM site for your fighter, the SA-10 is the way to go (or the SA-6 if we want to stick with the Cold War era).

[@zedtank]

Hey, a little correction - it wasn't the iron dome that shot down the sa5. It was the HETZ (arrow) anti ballistic missile system.

[@Spudknocker]

SA-5 Gammon / S-200 HARM CODES For F/A-18C & F-16C: Tin Shield Search Radar - 130 Square Pair Tracking Radar - 129 Keep in mind these tactics described are very oversimplified and there are many, many extra assets and variables in a real SEAD situation than those described in the video!

[@clivereid]

Thanks for this video, it was an enjoyable watch. Please could you show us how to begin to approach a modern (as far as is possible in DCS) IADS?

[@TheKeithvidz]

Surely the jews have jammer pods. Here's my old idea to attack Israel - use Gammon as decoys to tub the Arrow ABM, close behind are ballistic missiles to take it and air bases out, the latter bases have its pilot living quarters targeted to kill pilots on the ground and other base facilities. Daring? Simulate that.

[@w0mblemania]

An entertaining, informative video, thanks. I'm not 100% convinced that Israel (or anyone else) would prefer to have its planes go down over enemy territory, rather than its own. Even though the country is tiny, the population density of Israel is so thin that it would be very unlikely for anyone to be hurt by a downed plane, unless the plane was over a city. A better reason for Israel's routing is probably just the obvious one: better terrain masking. After all, if you're an Israeli F-15 with one wing, where would you rather land? Hezbollah-controlled southern Lebanon, or Ben Gurion?

[@oxblood85lol]

Thank you for this video, as Israeli leaving at the north, I've always wondered why the IAF is choosing the Lebanon side for attacking Syria and as a result, I'm getting sleepless nights due to jets enginens sounds :)

[@alexanderryan-jones600]

"What the hell, that looks like a plane on top of a tank!" - My daughter (9)

[@JustynTemme]

They quality of this video is even better than your normal ones. Like a shit ton , good job bro

[@anthonyhershko]

Amazing video as usual!! !

[@thecraigster8888]

Glad you mentioned that the SAM site at the Damascus airport is actually an SA-2 site as seen on Google Earth. There are more SAM sites in the area that can be seen on GE. There is a large SA-5 site located 12 miles NE (az 55 deg) from the airport SAM. It is a little hard to spot in the open desert since there is such low contrast with the sandy terrain. Almost due west of the airport SAM is an SA-3 site (23 miles at az 277 deg). It is positioned on a mountain ridge line just NE of Qatana. When you show the map of Damascus when the HARM missiles were passing the SA-5, they were right in this area. The map lists the ridge as an artillery base. There are a lot more SAMs in Syria. The city of Homs in the north is completely surrounded by several SA-2s, some SA-3s, an SA-5 and even an SA-6 site.

[@rakamora2266]

Try approaching super low with harrier and sidearms poping up 5nm out its really fun!

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

If only we could strap those to the Viggen...

[@randallmacdonald4851]

In a flat environment, I can consistently approach any radar emitting SAM site, including the SA-5, to within 24 nmi and launch Harms. At that range, the SA-5 site has no defense against Harms. Other anti-air weaponry, if in the vicinity, can counter-attack the Harms, of course. Slammers, in TOO fed by a prudent TGP working with Harm-locks, are a good offense against those sites.

[@alanw2235]

Very cool!, Thanks for posting.

[@FD1CE]

Great video. Keep it up Mr. Knocker, AS ALWAYS ^^

[@Jack2Japan]

Excellent tutorial.

[@Lalremruata-dd3ro]

My fav cold war SAM

[@Spudknocker]

My favorite SAM is the one that easiest to get out of the way of! haha!

[@Lalremruata-dd3ro]

@@Spudknocker haha its pretty imaneuverable but it can destroy even sr 71 if the angle and time is just right

[@jamescass2340]

Hey Spud! Great Video! I have a request and a question. First off would you mind making a video or videos for general SEAD/DEAD missions? I've been getting my rear end handed to me using HARMs and JSOWs. I've been trying the Hornet and the Viper. Also, where can I get a list of the codes for the Viper HARM tables?

[@-Sunny--]

This game! So happy i have you!

[@CommanderSteinsch]

Great stuff Spud! How would you attack the SA-5 site if it was locally defended by a SA-15s shooting down HARMS?

[@hellcat611]

Great vid, Ol' Spuddy. Keem em coming.

[@jep1103]

Wish they would sort out the brightness on the MFDs bloody awful Great vid spud

[@Dan20q]

Spud probably hadn't set the MFDs to max. brightness?

[@AvnerSenderowicz]

superb video.

[@maxpower7466]

smart play... very nice video thanks

[@Karyovin]

I think the SA-5 saw combat use during tensions between the US and Libya in the 80s, No USN aircraft were hit by it I remember reading that they received HARMs in reply. So I guess both the Gammon and HARM by this point are rather familiar with each other

[@johnchristian664]

What are you using to draw on your streams ecordings?

[@sebywest3736]

wao...exellent video,tnx.

[@kennethhicks2113]

Good stuff!

[@Pro052du973]

I don't have the "Tin Shield" on my DCS :(

[@markstott6689]

Goats of Cyprus beware!!!

[@Spudknocker]

Best comment yet!

[@markstott6689]

@@Spudknocker Thanks 😀

[@FD1CE]

All goats now need RWR :D

[@markstott6689]

@@FD1CE Sorry but what's RWR please?

[@leonpilot737]

@@markstott6689 Radar Warning Receiver

[@christianbartels8482]

Hey folks, i want build my own SA5 mission, but cant find the Tin Shield Search Radar and Square Pair Tracking Radar sites. Two SA5 types i can found, but nothing happens in mission. What do i wrong??? Yes, beta and yes updated... Any clue/tip for me??

[@rzr2ffe325]

Tin Shield is more associated with the SA-10. They should get rid of Big Bird and replace it with this. Tall King would have been more relevant search radar for the SA-5

[@YlmazDALKIRANscallion]

Hey Spud, SA stands for "Surface to Air" ?

[@Maverickf20]

Yup

[@t173hfl63]

Yılmaz selamlar, iyi uçuşlar

[@jameswilliams1085]

At work at the moment. I would like to comment on this.

[@wanghafHUN]

Hi guys, I am planning to buy a new map to Dcs, I would be considered a starter, i have like 80 hours in the F18 and like 20 hours in the f15, these 2 are the only planes I have. I've been looking at the site, and I find the Persian Gulf map really great. Would it be a great choice or not? Btw, if any sales are comming and you have a "secret" info about its date, pls share it with me :)

[@morso1]

Prersian gulf is performant for slow pc but too much desert. Most beautyful map is syria you wont regret it. Learn everything on the f18 and youll have fun for years

[@thejokerguy244]

Persian gulf is best choice, i think it is the most used dlc map for modern era planes, I run a squadron for the f18 and it's almost as necessary as the super carrier is because I fly there so often.

[@maehschaf6699]

There will probably be a sale around Halloween!

[@gregpruitt1647]

So, putting this missile on the 3 or 9 would not work?

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

2:02 Meteor entered the chat.

[@BENKYism]

The spiky boosters are peak Russian aesthetics

[@Maverickf20]

Is it possible to get the misssion file for this? Would love to try this out.

[@MamboDCS]

Does Lebanon not have any air defenses to keep Israel from doing exactly that?

[@Spudknocker]

Not really, there may be militias or like Hezbollah that like to take pot shots at Israeli jets or helos with manpads or light AAA, but Israel goes to great lengths to both clandestinely and overtly degrade any capability to do so from Hezbollah. The Lebanese government has no incentive to engage Israeli aircraft due to the dire consequences of retaliatory attack by the IAF and IDF in response. It’s Israel’s long standing tactic of massive retaliation as a deterrent at work.

[@MamboDCS]

@@Spudknocker oh yeah, right. And with Lebanon actually having something to lose, quite a lot to lose, if such retaliation happens, it works lol. Are the MANPADS from Hezbollah not something to worry about though?

[@Spudknocker]

@@MamboDCS definitely something to worry about but your military tries it’s best to prevent those types of weapons from ever getting to the hands of Hezbollah that’s why IAF jets attack Iranian weapons shipments so often

[@MamboDCS]

@@Spudknocker oh, alright. Sounds about right for our military hahaha

[@pelegwasserman9253]

@@MamboDCS manpads don't really come into play at the altitudes were talking about here.

[@aztec0112]

The SA-5 is more dangerous to random airliners and military patrol aircraft minding their own business, and/or neighborhoods in other countries when they miss. The Sufa pilots survived with minor injuries.

[@w0mblemania]

Indeed. Civil aviation in the region must be a nightmare. At any time you could be lit up by an old Soviet radar or a manpad.

[@TheGranicd]

Israel stopped flying over Syria about that time. All attacks are tossing missiles over the sea or Lebanon.

[@realQuiGon]

Does Israel even use the HARM missile? Wikipedia says they do, but I can find no other source to confirm this, nor can I find any pictures of Israeli F-16s with HARMs.

[@haedubabaganush]

They have HARM's with their own added mods.

[@jussihaila]

How do you get the view of that SAM-site or enemy fighters?

[@Juhujalp]

Press your F Keys for different views. F1 is cockpit F2 is outside view and if you click F2 while in outside view you will cycle to other planes. F6 i think should be missile view. You can check all the buttons in the controls under 'view'. This all only works if the mission and your settings allow external views.

[@jussihaila]

@@Juhujalp Thanks. It would be cool to view my target area when engaging it.

[@Juhujalp]

@@jussihaila For that you would need to setup a view using the F11 views. You can move them by scrolling your mouse wheel.

[@peshosh7061]

as a hebrew speaker, the pronounciation of sufa is with emphasis on the "a" instead of the "u", regarding the tactics in here, I can't confirm nor deny for obvious reasons, regardless , very good video, cheers

[@TheGranicd]

Range? Yes.

[@Adi-hb2wh]

important to note, the Israeli air defense never shut down a Syrian s200, in the latest may we(I'm an Israeli) launch an arrow missile, trying to intercept Syrian s200 missile which enters our airspace and fly towards the area of Dimona. the missile miss and the Syrian missile explode over southern Israel. Israel launch a couple of times missile against the Syrian s200 but never was able to intercept them. (there is a lot of incidents like that.) if you want to, I can tell you about it in discord or something

[@oldmanfunky4909]

These could be VERY dangerous SAMs if set up right. You know not firing until your in lethal zones and multi radar units that switch power on and off to throw off your harms. As well as the other nasties you can add to stop low level gun runs. Just like you do tactics in your jet to dodge missiles. SAMs have tricks too! So I challenge you to build a SAM site like you really want to kill planes and protect your SAM sites. Then I challenge you to face your creation. If you do it right, you will need to bring friends because someone isn't coming home. Because setting up a "basic template" is like fighting the Gerber Baby. Super easy.

[@TheGranicd]

Most people are not aware that sams can have active and passive decoys - false emmiters and radar beam sidelobe ground reflectors.

[@haedubabaganush]

There is a big difference in SEAD and DEAD....and different airforces have different philosophies as to how to proceed. While shutting off your radar to avoid a HARM hit is a great idea...it also means that you will not be able to launch your SAM with high probability of hitting a target....ie... they have suppressed you. The RAF and USN for example work to suppress. I suspect from what I see in open sources that the Israeli's mainly use suppression tactics. Yes, we read about all the incoming missiles shot down by the glorious soviet sam's defending syria...but funny enough, they also keep admitting that some got through to hit the targets...so I wonder how many were decoys. The USAF, generally takes a different view...and that is to destroy (kill) sam sites with the idea that a dead site can't hurt you tomorrow. However, as we have seen, killing a site is harder to do than suppress a system. BTW, I am told by radar experts that many of the sam decoy systems can be detected and filtered. Has to do with signal characteristics that is way beyond my understanding.

[@spudicous]

The SA-5 actually shouldn't give an RWR missile launch warning as there is no communication between the missile and the launch site. The missile just follows the returns from the tracking radar. In reality there should be no RWR between a tracking SA-5 and an SA-5 that has launched a missile.

[@0w784g]

What does "communication" between missile and the launch platform have to do with anything? It's the change in radiation emitted from the track radar that indicates it is supporting a missile. It's the same as (almost) every other radar-based SAM system.

[@spudicous]

@@0w784g Because Gammon's tracking radar doesn't change it's emission pattern when it fires a missile. With Guideline, for instance, the targeted aircraft can detect both the slight change in radar emissions when a missile is launched AND it can detect the communications link between the Guideline's missile and the Fansong radar. The Gammon does not change it's emissions at all when it fires the missile, so a pilot would know that he's locked on, but wouldn't have any electronic way of knowing whether a missile had been fired at him. This is theorized to have been part of why the Israelis lost an F-16 to a Gammon several years ago, the pilots were used to being locked onto by SA-5 and so they didn't react, and didn't realize that they wouldn't get a warning when it fired on them.

[@0w784g]

@@spudicous F-16 RWR can't differentiate an AIM-7 lock or launch either. My understanding is in some versions of the Viper the RWR interfaces with the radar to determine what to show pilot on their defensive instruments. Willing to give ED the benefit of the doubt on this one.

[@alexsix3845]

For the GAMMON fans : kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z2GQfH2jpNVgeZY The real Gammon Radar Homing Seeker

[@Thorloar]

You can just notch the SA-5 for 2-4 sec and it trashes the lock. It seems to be the easiest SAM to notch in game at the moment.

[@randallmacdonald4851]

My first exposure to an SA-5 was last night. I ran in at angels 15 or so, waited for a launch, fired my Harm, notched as I dove low, lightly chaffed, timed the SA-5's approach, and then pulled into a stiff climb, chaffing as fast as I could. I got hit and the SA-5 got hit. Notching doesn't always work in DCS.

[@neelz]

Could you maybe turn off the background music while you're talking? It really doesn't add anything to the video and is just distracting.

[@sagigueta7294]

יש פה ישראלים?

[@baconatoromg6062]

Hopefully not

[@sagigueta7294]

@@baconatoromg6062 why not?

[@rostyloco1]

+

[@Roarkady]

A little correction there regarding the preference of Israeli jet falling in enemy territory over its own is wrong. Israeli jets have a lot of locally made avionics and what not. Im pretty sure they wouldn't want that to happen and much more likely be "happy" if it happened on their own territory. Same goes for every defensive missile e.g iron dome and arrow

[@Fulcrum683]

And for what reason is the launch visible on the RWR? Something's wrong... Or is it a simplification? There are already plenty of reasons for GSN to lose the lock: low signal from the target, low overload of the rocket, low target speed and there are some more.... Can RWR see the missile launch? What about AWACS? He sees the launches and can issue a warning to the aircraft crews, I thought this is how they implement it... And so for the video like, but SA5 looks like some kind of a child's firecracker here....

[@realQuiGon]

I never really understood why Lebanon remains relatively quiet about Israel frequently violating their airspace to attack another country.

[@w0mblemania]

When you say "violating their airspace" you need to remember that Israel (and many others) regard Hezbollah-controlled Lebanon as a proxy for Iran. For Israel, it's not "Lebanese" airspace, it's airspace controlled by Iranian-fed forces. Forces that are existentially opposed to Israel. So it's a no-brainer for Israel: they are attacking their (various) enemies through enemy-controlled territory. Hezbollah, for their part, are playing it _relatively_ cool. Despite all their bluster, they don't want another 2006. They know it would be devastating, and they're not in the best condition. (You will note that Hezbollah kept mostly quiet during the most recent, failed Hamas rocket attacks against Israel, when it could have been a good opportunity for Hezbollah to unleash thousands of rockets from the north.)

[@realQuiGon]

@@w0mblemania I do understand the Israeli point of view very well, but this is not the POV of international law, so I wonder why Lebanon doesn't make those violations more public to put pressure on Israel to stop them.

[@w0mblemania]

@@realQuiGon Well, Lebanon isn't a sovereign state at this point. Lebanon probably do protest, but nobody is listening because Iran calls the shots, and many (most) of Israel's neighbours (and their historical enemies) are tacitly allied with Israel in the fight against Iranian regional hegemony.

[@realQuiGon]

@@w0mblemania If Iran has so much influence over Lebanon it makes me wonder even more why Lebanon doesn't really protest against those airspace violations. I just don't understand this from a Lebanese point of view.

[@w0mblemania]

@@realQuiGon I'm sure some Lebanese do protest, but protests sound hollow when your country has been taken over and hosts terrorist organisations. And Lebanon has myriad problems already: widespread corruption and incompetence, an economy that is going down the gurgler, a civil war next door complete with Russians. It's not a great time to be Lebanese.

[@TheKeithvidz]

The IAF is fortunate Syria lacks an iron hand leader. Easiest way to stop this terror is blanketing their bases with Tishreen missiles. AS I WOULD. They retaliate, Tel Aviv to follow. My capital burns, but not alone.

[@pistonssssss]

SA-5 is really weak represented in this simulator.... Totally inaccurate