Debate: Does a woke aristocracy really run Britain? | Matt Goodwin vs Mic Wright

Author Matthew Goodwin and media commentator Mic Wright went back and forth over Matt's new book, "Values, Voice and Virtue".
One challenged the other to a debate in the marketplace of ideas.
We gave them our marketplace, and they brought their ideas.
Camera: Joel Dunn-Wilson
Mix: Shawnee Linstead
Subscribe to our new podcast now, or you're a silly goose:
linktr.ee/pubcast

[@JoshWiniberg]

Mic: "don't interrupt me" Also Mic: "I need to interrupt you"

[@TheReubstar]

Amen!

[@mesolithicman164]

Childish Leftism.

[@harryking5869]

He’s a rude, chippy slob. That’s holding him back more than his background.

[@jumblestiltskin1365]

Guy does this constantly to Matt, who in fairness to him let's him continue because ultimately when he interrupts he doesn't have anything rational to say back, aside from rambling and telling little anecdotes. Matt knows this and let's him away with it, his interruptions and rambling doesn't advance his cause.

[@FabriceBourrelly]

"I didn't say that" He just did ! Anectodes and me me me. What a thoroughly annoying character.

[@JulieFishman-gs4zg]

This is great. Everything about Mic Wright is 16 years old apart from his age.

[@Craig07L]

His boyfriend?

[@Globaldave1970]

LOL. His T-shirt.... and he is nearly 40!

[@Dimera09]

Bizarre childish freak. Matt Goodwin's arguments, on the other hand, are very persuasive.

[@ericreckless541]

I would find it hard to be sympathetic to someone who spent a significant amount of time looking at the floor, squealing, waving his arms and mostly ignoring what his opponent said.

[@alexdavis1541]

A couple of things I noticed about this guy. Early on he disparaged populism, using the abandonment of the death penalty as an example of its nefarious nature. Essentially what he was saying is that, "My/our progressive values trump those of the populace". That's good enough for him. Anyone wanting to understand this mindset in detail should read Thomas Sowell's, "The Vision of the Anointed". In Sowell's terms this guy sees himself as one of the "anointed". Sowell's evisceration of this mindset is revealing to say the least. Next he describes a sudden collapse and medical emergency that he has suffered. Treated by a phlebotomist. He doesn't go into detail beyond that but this is becoming an increasingly common story these days. This commonality is observably linked to the jab. Typically embolisms and myocarditis. He denies the existence of an elite as described by Goodwin but it is almost certain he follows their edicts. This blindness to their existence, and the way they operate, may well have almost cost him his life.

[@harryking5869]

The sheer number of times he uses the personal pronoun ‘I’.

[@williamlee3534]

Poor Mic. He's not very good at debating. But he's very, very good at hyperventilating and harrumphing.

[@MKUltra7]

@@williamlee3534 Mic also displays mastery of evading questions by saying "It's complicated."

[@LiaM-sg8uw]

​​@@MKUltra7I believe that's just his brain's very (very very) limited processing power

[@LS-xs7sg]

The anger and moral projection of Mic speaks volumes

[@Dielonthug]

sighs again

[@Lawrence4000-s3k]

This guy is a parody from Royston Vasey

[@KINGCABA-if4nk]

He’s head of the new elite.

[@esaucairn7589]

Ugly in Pink.Thick mincing Mic highlights by his manner exactly what Matt is criticising, he's emotional, well woke, light in the loafers, a son of Naval parents obviously been around a lot of Seamen,The Rum bum and botty, watch,that shivered his timbers arghh, arghh me 'arties

[@A.Montgomery]

This is the perfect reflection of the society we live in. I was actually looking forward to someone challenging Matthew Goodwin with sound arguments, hoping to be convinced otherwise. But it's the same story: lots of emotions, lack of knowledge, personal experiences, not seeing the bigger picture, and an inability to debate an argument. Even if this man had a point, I get lost after ten minutes of him circling around an issue without answering it and ending up with a different point. This leads the opponent to respond to the new point that was made. Coming from a very left-leaning background, I started questioning all the emotions and the drive to be good. Much of it is madness and has the intellectual horizon of a nine-year-old. As much as I like most of these people because they try hard to protect the vulnerable, I understand that they fail in this mission due to ideological thinking. And that's sad because they could do a lot of good things. They have the energy and the craziness to change a lot for the better, but they need to challenge their own thoughts, very often their behaviour, and a structure of thoughts and arguments.

[@Wagtail333]

Mic Wright is on something or other.... Matt Goodwin wiped the floor with him.

[@UglyRugby]

As a bi-sexual person he certainly doesn’t subscribe to the view that intersectional progressive politics is an actual thing… 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@masonvanluven6523]

I swear there are better and more theoretically sound lefties in this world… why aren’t they on these shows?

[@OhAwe]

@@masonvanluven6523 Not everyone wants to pursue YT fame lmao? Or even, the overwhelming majority of grounded people.

[@IanHolmes-m7f]

No he didn't

[@ianrichardson9950]

Poor Matt trying to debate with a toddler having a tantrum!

[@SmokeandSteam]

There are so many important points that need to be made about Matthew Goodwin and his arguments. But, sadly, Mic Wright doesn’t make any of them and instead spent the time either huffing and puffing or incoherently making points that just bounce off Goodwin. The host is more effective at putting Goodwin to the test.

[@ACsPianoCorner]

I agree. Matthew clearly is well researched, well versed and well rehearsed on these points. Whereas Mic is not. Mic clearly disagrees with Matthews points (which for the record so do I), but doesn’t do the necessary part of concisely explaining why he disagrees without leaning on personal anecdotes. In my view Matthew uses multiple farcical arguments straw-manning the left. There is nuance here and both sides when they lack nuance lose the argument.

[@jamesriley3760]

Could you not mispronounce the letter d instead of the letter t in spoken English. It is important to maintain proper standards! Good video though. Thank you 👍

[@eliakimjosephsophia4542]

Agreed. What this generation of socialists forget is that our socialist working class families that were trade union members were against going into the EU, Tony Benn was also against it because they knew the vast impact that free movement of people from other countries would have on our workforce and standard of living. Benn and the trade unionists were absolutely right in the 70s. They also knew that there wouldn't be jobs for everyone too. Hence, when we voted for BREXIT the working class were returning to what our socialist families taught us to defend and protect workers rights in the UK, our people, our country.

[@JustIn-mu3nl]

@@eliakimjosephsophia4542 Because socialism/communism are nationalistic in purpose, joining the EU is globalist. That's the big problem behind the push of socialism/communism in the west, they fail to see that politics has is globalist now. There are 2 ways it works, Russian old school nationalism, Chinese new school where the nation is a commodity to be sold to globalist corporations for profit.

[@angloirishcad]

Yep, typical lefty...self-righteousness without any substance

[@Bob.Jenkins]

You can't have a 'debate' with the kind of person exemplified by Mic Wright; Their mind is already locked, they can't create a cogent argument in defence of their opinions and unwilling (perhaps unable) to listen to anything that remotely challenges it. You're wasting your time talking to this person and, honestly, ours.

[@bryankinney1]

Bang on the money. It was pointless and an insult to our intelligence.

[@LargeChap]

Cognitive dissonance in a nutshell.

[@darrylhewes2376]

Matt speaks so much sense in my veiw.

[@MetalSamantha]

He doesn’t speak any whatsoever in mine

[@0w784g]

The squealing girl is pretty funny.

[@georgemulford2910]

Impossible to take these people seriously

[@judithcressey1682]

It's got a vote, it's not funny.

[@stephenbowker824]

Why have you got curly watts on the panel 😂😂

[@ordoabchao4202]

How dare you assume their gender!?

[@oscarlite1786]

Its like debating Kev the teenager.

[@vvwalker7261]

Mic provides a masterclass in how not to debate, what a 🤡

[@jumblestiltskin1365]

His argument about the NHS, windrush and his lovely story about his hospital visit said it all to me about this "Mic" guy.

[@brianlaudrupchannel]

He just dumb

[@georgemulford2910]

@@jumblestiltskin1365when defended the NHS is only talked about in personal anecdote. Presumably because a rational point of view quickly reveals its numerous weaknesses.

[@hbarbar55]

Matt's correct. Upsetting all the right people judging by the tenor of the comment section.

[@JBryc3]

As a leftist, I wish more people who represent the left POV conducted themselves in debates more like Matt as opposed to mic

[@aristocraticrebel]

Very unlikely to happen. Leftists are on average more neurotic.

[@juanperon1301]

Why don’t you just join the right instead? It’s easy.

[@shaunclubberlang2887]

Why? Because you swallow the bullshit that the terms of any debate should be defined by the establishment's rules? You do realise that locks out people of less privileged backgrounds from political discourse, don't you?

[@MrColinkemp]

You meen "more boring When matt speaks it is like watching paint dry

[@shaunclubberlang2887]

'as a leftist '. I find that hard to believe. I think this is an example of concern trolling.. I'm on your side.. but. I'm calling bullshit on that

[@PurpleCurllGurl]

I agree with Mic but I HATE the way he delivers his points. It's rash, crude and all his huffing and puffing just makes him insufferable.

[@dh1380]

Agreed. He's not really the spokesperson we need 🤣

[@andrewburridge5958]

Absolutely this. He seems to think it's great because it's "how you debate in pubs". Bizarre behaviour.

[@MantisMaestro]

To be fair to him, the huffing and puffing sounds like more of an issue with the microphone setup. But agreed that he could be making his points a bit more clearly.

[@JulianThomas-ru9xo]

The far more insufferable thing is the way his debating opponent keeps Gish Galloping. It's a method of debate where you drown your opponent out by talking about irrelevant things for six hours and rely on their politeness and the audience's perceptions in order to make them seem like a total arse. compared to that the 'huffing and puffing' of audible frustration at the sheer idiocy of the points being made is bearable.

[@andrewburridge5958]

@@JulianThomas-ru9xo yeah I heard Mic make that point himself. I don't actually agree he's gish galloping, I think in the main he (MG) makes a number of points which hang together fairly sensibly. Maybe if he popped his dummy back in he'd be able to listen more. It's not like Goodwin interrupts him particularly so he has every opportunity to summarise what Goodwin's said and what he wants to focus on..?

[@francescahamilton6856]

Unfortunately, the brilliant Matt Goodwin is debating on another level. Enough said.

[@danielfitton9187]

Adult debating a child. Mic needs to grow up

[@DrGreenGiant]

One person disagrees with the other in a calm, concise and polite way. The other is rude, hand wavey and shouty. Credibility in a debate is very important.

[@CB-dl1vg]

In summary: Matt Goodwin is bang on the money and is echoing exactly how 10s of millions of English people feel across the nation.

[@hjhw100]

Your body language said it, says the guy who has been huffing and puffing the whole way through

[@ordoabchao4202]

Slouching, harroumphing, gesticulating. Being better than us.

[@chrish5184]

55:36 Mic admits that the Labour party has, since Blair and Brown, stopped being representative of workers and instead represents the interests of a professional managerial class. Which is EXACTLY Matt's argument. That a new graduate managerial professional class has overtaken all the institutions (eg The Labour Party) and no longer reflects ordinary (working) peoples values. Wow. There it is.

[@kirishima2370]

Mic comes across as a petulant baby

[@alisonbrockbank6677]

They all do. Speaking to someone on the left these days is like speaking to an angry teenager.

[@tcritt]

Matt: "Traditional values means respecting the authority of institutions. The woke want to destroy that." Also Matt: "I want to break up the institutions" 😅

[@Niall001]

"Not MY institutions!"

[@zapre2284]

Because thos einstitutions have been infested with left wing political cancer ? You're not very bright are you

[@tomemery7890]

You know he means: "Respecting traditional institutions" "Break up the woke-dominated institutions" So there's no contradiction there. Is this what passes for mega pwnage in this comment section?

[@tcritt]

@@tomemery7890 See above comment. You proved their point. I'd love a list of which institutions are woke and which are not. Pretty much all of them have been declared "the enemy of the people" by the right wing rags and Tory pundets.

[@GodsOwnPrototype]

The family, traditional local religion, local communities & cultural norms & practices - it's not esoteric deconstructionist rocket science.

[@davidperks2581]

Matthew Goodwin comes across very well. Mic Wright not so much lol

[@Da1Dez]

Imagine the two of them in a job interview.... who would get the job?

[@harrytd]

I am afraid Mic is not bright enough to debate with Matt. Emotion over logic, desperation oozing out of him. A pretty average leftist.

[@NotThatOneThisOne]

"The people who benefited most from opening universities (25 years ago) were the children of the New Elite, who already had privilege and advantage." So his new elite are currently in their 60s-70s? His old elite weren't usurped, they died from old age! And, shock horror, what a revelation that converting polys to unis didn't significantly help the working classes. How has no one thought this before?

[@danielcrafter9349]

I love the sarcasm dripping from that last sentence 😂😂

[@marktaylor6491]

Exactly. It's not the new elite all. Its the old elite in different clothes.

[@RobertShippey]

Perfect example of how the slightest scrutiny makes the whole argument collapse.

[@Jay_Johnson]

Matt in this debate was literally just the socially conservative neoliberal elite complaining about the socially liberal neoliberal elite. Left wing people didn't come into it.

[@Patrick-jj5nh]

Haha yea perfect. Goodwin has a tendency to think to himself: wow I must have been the first to realise this! I am a genius!

[@segue2ant395]

I feel like Mic nailed it in his closing statements. These conversations are impossible to have honestly - because the anti-woke crowd spends all of its time gish-galloping on tangents, building straw men, poisoning the well, talking in abstracts, and never once pointing to a concrete example. I think entertaining this debate in the first place gave Matt's arguments an undue level of respect.

[@TBakerXD]

As Mic tried to counter early on, the central strategy is always: point towards as many disconnected topics as quickly as you can in order to sound credible at a glance, then obfuscate and complain when your opponent asks to examine each subject critically

[@conall5434]

@@TBakerXD Yep, gishgalloping. These people are not serious and are not entering into these discussions in good faith. This guy is doing the JP. "im not aligned with the left or right", while spouting nationalistic rhetoric. As Mic pointed out it just sounds like 'Cultural Bolshevism', he's just not explicitly blaming the jews.

[@nmk5003]

I think that Goodwin is simply trying to copy the neo-American alt-right culture war argument, he seems to quote American pollsters without even fully understanding the racial, demographic, cultural and social realities of the USA. He is in some ways trying to Americanize the British Cultural malaise as most British right wingers do without understanding the terms. For example "progressive" in the way that Goodwin uses it, is a very Americanized term that exists for along time separately from the concept of the Left. He is trying to make the argument that was made about the PMC (Professional Managerial Class), but with far less sophistication and understanding. He also seems to skip over the fact that this argument was made by the John and Barabara Ehrenreich who were both members of the new left that Goodwin seems to be railing against.

[@segue2ant395]

@@conall5434 As Mic said early on there are heavy shades of 'Blood and Soil' to Matt's rhetoric. It's quite pathetic really - identifying 'us' by defining 'them'. Matt just realised it's easier if 'them' doesn't exist, because then you can ascribe whatever values you like to them. Does anyone else hear a very high-pitched whine, just out of hearing range?

[@vthomas375]

'Nothing concrete' Whilst the conversation stays only ideological and subjective with one side trying to push their subjectivity onto another yes they are excruciatingly difficult to have. The international communication between people should be objective and practical with the former taking the back seat for progress to begin.

[@malcolmcoram2857]

Just look at the body language; the intolerance; the barely concealed agression; the desire to denigrate; the boastful bluster; then perhaps the reason Matthew Goodwin wrote his book and the force of the arguments expressed within it become more, and not less, relevant. I do not know anything about Mic Wright and I would certainly not try to make the claim that he had nothing interesting or relevant to say in this debate. Far from it. But I feel that his approach to the issues was based solely upon a desire to deny completely that there has been any shift whatsoever in the cultural agenda of those who control British institutions over the last couple of decades which is, quite obviously, nonsense. Whether it a left/right issue or not I have some doubts personally because it seems to me that the new agenda is not necessarily based upon any particular political alignment but is, rather, all about a radically progressive idealism which seeks not to unite but to divide; and, when required, to demonise, and silence, those who dare to dissent.

[@Da1Dez]

Matthew should run for parliament and one day Prime Minister, he gets the British issues entirely!!!!

[@richardabbot8724]

Yet again I see the one arguing the Left position struggling to control their emotions. This says a great deal, none of it good.

[@harleywykes4971]

When Matt talks about the left, he just means people with socially progressive/liberal viewpoints. When Mic talks about the left, he means people with economically left wing viewpoints e.g. rail nationalisation. This lead to a lot of confusion in this debate as they both used the word ‘left’ to mean different things. I think Matt’s argument that the new elite is socially very liberal is persuasive, but I do not think this elite is economically left or socialist, which is where Mic is right.

[@Jay_Johnson]

Matt is a socially conservative neoliberal complaining about socially liberal neoliberals. Then says everything wrong with neoliberalism is the fault of social liberalism.

[@adamlowe7618]

@@Jay_Johnson This, I think, when you cut through the shit, is 100% spot on. I kind of wish it had been summarised in the debate in exactly this way.

[@atee876]

@@Jay_Johnson that is a good summary! nicely distilled! ;)

[@johnmorris3894]

Matt doesn't have a coherent argument

[@michaelingram8056]

Goodwin says that this elite is economically right wing, but culturally left wing (in a performative sense). I think he is right. I see these type of people every day. . .and I fucking despise them.

[@TheSeanj87]

‘I’m a classical liberal, which means I believe in individuals having their own views, but I also think they should all have the same views I do.’

[@danielcrafter9349]

I mean...that IS the definition 😂😂

[@geeman.8081]

Getting heavy Sargon of Akkad vibes 😂

[@CatAtomic99]

You think a classical liberal should never argue their opinion? Sorry, but that's asinine.

[@tonykehoe123]

Dressing like a teenager when your nearly forty speaks volumes . Petulance and self loathing personified . Congratulations to Mr Goodwin for his calm and measured delivery . Couldn’t watch after 18mins following the “ don’t interrupt me , because I never interrupted you “ then the man child went on to interrupt upon more than one occasion. Don’t waste your time Matt .

[@crayontom9687]

His argument at 46 minutes really gets to the heart of it. We’re dealing with the fallout of 45 years of neoliberal economics and the ‘new elite’ is simply a made up fifth column that everyone can throw their anger towards. The whole premise of his argument stinks

[@zoltarbixbal3190]

I thought so too. He's basically identifying false targets to rally opposition around. It stinks of Fascism.

[@zoltarbixbal3190]

It's basically the same old "White Genocide" snowflake argument wrapped up with vague and misleading labels. "Experts" rather than Laymen should be a part of an Enlightened Democracy. Not put up as targets of abuse because they are deemed "Woke" - if they're Woke then you must be Asleep. "Elites" are not necessarily "Experts" as we have seen recently.

[@zoltarbixbal3190]

There are deliberate conflations and false attributions at play in this book. Probably better to go straight to Mein Kampf and be honest about the real Agenda.

[@wanderlustig8037]

The irony of the critiques made of the likes of Goodwin, and Goodheart, Lindt, Lilla, Kotkin etc etc - is that it is these authors who have argued that IT IS NEOLIBERALISM and the current economic order which has failed. The half wits ignore the common refrain on the need to better attend to issues arising from CLASS. It's only the class privileged identitarians and conspiracy wackos who talk of fifth columns.

[@mesolithicman164]

Which, of course, is wrong. All the main Parties represent one main body of political thought, with a couple of minor variations to create the illusion of difference. It's what they call the establishment Unaparty in the US. The party that believes in constant war and the continuous enrichment of of a super elite class who preach about climate change, for instance, while flying around the world in their private jets. Or Obama, warning about rising sea levels and the threat to society while spending 6 million dollars on a Martha's Vineyard beachfront property. The elite was always there but never so brazen.

[@jamiekelly7280]

Matt, drinks a cup of tea, dresses his age. Mic, drinks pop, dresses like a 20 year old.

[@ordoabchao4202]

Debates like a 16 year old

[@kingshousetube]

I have not watched a lot of discussions where people drink coke but each to their own I guess. First impressions matter!

[@carl2488]

I can't keep watching. Mic has such anxious energy and can't finish a thought. He's bringing this really tetchy energy into it all. Expected to watch this and find brokenbottleboy nailing it from a left wing perspective. Actually just feel embarrassed.

[@crayontom9687]

‘People have become more relaxed about immigration since Brexit’. Hmmm, could that be something to do with the fact that the media had to tone down the scare stories to maintain the facade that we had ‘taken back control’? The immigration debate in this country is nothing more than Chomsky’s Manufacturing Consent in action

[@MrXaphus]

Could be, and probably is a major factor. It could also be because voters have finally realized that nothing they do will ever convince the established parties that immigration needs to be managed at a more manageable rate, and have simply downed tools. "None of the above" preference is reportedly rising in numerous polls, and voter turnout is predicted to fall this decade significantly - both signs that people are giving up. So "relaxed" isn't the word really, its more "depressed into a state of paralysis".

[@taggart8]

Spot on.

[@lenwilkinson672]

Mathew is a very informative person,he calmly puts his views across,the other chap in my humble opinion is an excitable person an not credible.

[@alkhemiegypt]

So much I could say here, but here’s a couple of points. I’m 61; I’ve moved more to the left as I’ve got older because I’ve seen how grossly inequitable the world is. In my younger days it felt like society was making progress (FYI that’s a GOOD thing, Matthew!) but in the last 13 years I’ve seen political discourse move to right, not just in this country but around the world. The concept of a “new elite” is nonsense and seems to have been cooked up to take the heat off the real elite who hold power as they always have. Matthew thinks that disliking progress is a given for the majority, which is completely untrue. Mic is spot on that media owned by the real elite has been totally ignored in Matthew’s vision of society. The idea that progressive left-wing ideals are being taken onboard by the elite is laughable. The few progressive gains that have been made (like BLM and Me Too) have been hard won and even harder to consolidate. The elite will do anything to maintain the status quo which has ever been true. The fact that Matthew thinks Emily Maitlis is on the left sums up how nonsensical his theory sounds.

[@soviet700]

Spot on

[@robsengahay5614]

Fully agree. I am 62 and my political progression has mirrored yours.

[@MrRailjunkie]

Excellent summary of Matts utter drivel.

[@AA-yc8yr]

That's factually incorrect. This is NOT about disliking progress, because arguably Matthew's thesis is that the 'elite' he talks about is not in fact progressive. And, it is NOT, actually. There's nothing progressive in undermining women's rights - by MEN - by, among other things, re-defining womanhood and denying its biological determinism. Neither is there anything progressive in enabling the de facto physiological, if not anatomical, mutilation of children, incl. teenagers. There is very little progress in a) denying and fabricating history to suit paritcular political perspectives that have next to ZERO effect on the human subjects claimed to be potential beneficiaries (slave trade, black 'history', etc.; b) treating a race of people in a blatantly racist way in the spirit of 'anti-racism' - the absurdity of 'white privilege' and 'unconscious bias' (debunked concept AND methodology) are just two examples of politically motivated race-based denigration that you would likely be the first to bemoan had it been aimed at the 'righteous' races; c) ostracising, and in fact determinedly and proactively undermining the livelihood of anyone considered politically inconvenient, or indeed an 'enemy'. Yes, there is a 'new elite' that behave just like the elite in former (and extant) communist states did / does. I should know some about that having been raised under one of those regimes, with those elites. The 'new' old elite in question is not only undeniably real, it is also pernicious and authocratic, and it relies on the quasi-religious, cultist type of group-think beautifully displayed on here.

[@MrRailjunkie]

@@AA-yc8yr It seems that you have been successfully brainwashed by Mathews horseshit. He spouts the same anti left propaganda.

[@muzzler24]

It's a shame that a debate like this would never happen on the BBC or LBC etc. They'd never allow Mic and Goodwin to share a platform and have a discussion.

[@TheSurrealWolf]

Thats why all the free thinkers are on youtube and all the morons are still paying their tv licenses

[@thediscokidd]

He’s a regular on BBC’s politics live,

[@NPC-st7zv]

Mic would destroy all the sound equipment with his constant huffing and puffing, He would be a good voice actor for the big bad wolf in the story of the 3 little pigs if his voice wasn't so whiney.

[@stevejacobs9320]

No point, only the left would see it!

[@JohnPG1706.]

@@NPC-st7zvIf Matt had thumped him I wouldn’t have had a blind bit of sympathy for him.

[@liarbrice4772]

I'm a white working class 50 year old from Durham- a skinhead, no less - who has lived in six "red wall" constituencies in my lifetime and the only time I've ever been outnumbered by Tories was when I attended the Universities of Durham (2003), Sunderland (2006) and Hull (2012-15) and when I worked for Newcastle college (1998-2002).

[@Jay_Johnson]

yeah but the important thing to realise is it is not a left wing elite it is a neoliberal elite. the kind that are currently controlling labour. for the past 44 years we have either had the socially left neoliberals or the socially right neoliberals. No-one (besides Corbyn) has actually challenged our current economic system.

[@terryneedham8053]

No you are not. You are bourgeois liberal masquerading as working class.

[@dadsaccount2587]

Whoever Mic is he could do with showing some manners because all the sighing, muttering and moaning is embarrassing.

[@kingshousetube]

He sounds like some young University person...no insults meant just my observation.

[@johngreylove1359]

Mic was still in distress even at the end of the discussion. LMAO

[@chriskehoe-comedy7765]

"Let me just be clear about what I mean by radical progressivism and why I'm worried about it" is a sentence for the ages.

[@benfisher1376]

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

[@robertyboberty]

"that's the problem with the new elite, they just want to put people into categories" spectacular self own there

[@SonOfExcess]

We all belong to categories - the difference is the modern elite want to shove society into categories along identity lines, which is a problem.

[@Aarenby]

@@SonOfExcess you would beat me for being gay though

[@johntowler4928]

There's an important difference between documenting a particular group and their tendencies (what Matt is doing - and what all scientific sociology does) and ascribing to an ideology that seeks to interpret the world through the lens of immutable characteristics and their power relations and all of the theoretical baggage that comes with that. Matt isn't saying that all people in this economic or social group think like that, or only the new elite thinks like that. He's simply documenting evidence-based trends in attitudes and values - and pointing out how out of step these views are with the majority of people.

[@robertyboberty]

​@@johntowler4928 this was the conclusion he arrived at via the strawman construction that people who believe in structural racism don't believe in intersectionalism. this is a total fabrication and has nothing to do with "evidence-based trends"

[@neilgordon1981]

@@johntowler4928 simply implying while not quite saying is a familiar methodology of maintaining plausible deniability but still getting a message across to a subsection of the audience who will read the implication loud and clear.

[@Farhaad-ll3qn]

Mic's behaviour is quite childish and impolite.

[@craigacronin]

Mic is very immature isn't he? The huffing and puffing, its like dealing with a child?

[@spenthompson]

It should have been easy to dismantle Goodwin's arguments, but instead Mic acted like a petulant, self-absorbed child throughout the debate.

[@Harveydentonstoads]

That’s because Mic IS a petulant, self-absorbed child.

[@Harveydentonstoads]

@@hiromiw649 even the expression on Mic’s face in the thumbnail is petulant and arrogant… kind of sums the man up really.

[@marvintpandroid2213]

These 2 magic words, woke and elite, allow me to not engage in any way and make me feel better about myself.

[@fergalcussen]

Said like a true wokie: your opinion is not your opinion, it's an undebatable moral truth that no sane person could ever conceivably fail to share.

[@jerrywinder7249]

Give me strength!!, left vs right!!!

[@geeman.8081]

​@@fergalcussen hah as if you engage in DeBaTe.

[@brennadickinson2920]

@@jerrywinder7249 Both wings of the same WEF bird!

[@danielcrafter9349]

​@@brennadickinson2920- no, but it seems that way cos Liberals are what you think of as "Left"

[@johnhamstie4218]

I wouldnt get Mic Wright on again. He did a really weak job of rebutting Goodwin's nonsense.

[@richierich7609]

Mic Wright was the wrong person to have on this debate. He seems like a perfectly decent guy, but he's not calm and focused and he's not refuting points in a direct and logical way. It's almost as if he were cast on here to represent everything that's wrong progressives. If you're going to make a show like this, bring in somebody who is experienced and focused and ready to refute Goodwin's points. What Goodwin is hawking here is right wing populism. Right wing populism says to working class people that the main conflict in society is ANYTHING OTHER than the rich versus everyone else. Hey look over there, trans people. Hey look over there, immigrants. Etc. That should be an easy thing to call out and refute, and that's not what's happening on this show.

[@MrXaphus]

He's not hawking anything, he's summarizing his own and other's research and drawing an aggregated conclusion (and prepared to debate that interpretation by attending interviews and debates wherever its offered). Have a different conclusion? Then aggregate the same research and tell a different and more compelling story.

[@pseudonayme7717]

@@MrXaphus We don't have to, Marx already wrote about it all.

[@MrXaphus]

@@pseudonayme7717 Ah yes, why bother. They say that Caliph Omar, when consulted about what had to be done with the library of Alexandria, answered as follows: 'If the books of this library contain matters opposed to the Koran, they are bad and must be burned. If they contain only the doctrine of the Koran, burn them anyway, for they are superfluous.' Nice to see thinking has changed...

[@marktaylor6491]

39:30 - It's very straight forward. 1. Those who have gone to university are more likely, at some point to have been taught critical analysis. So they know media BS when they see it. 2. Those who have gone to university are more likely to interact with those of different cultural backgrounds. Which means they know these people and don't see them as the enemy within, and thus are more likely to dismiss media BS about them 3. Those who have gone to university are more likely to be younger, and so more likely to have grown up around those of different cultural backgrounds. Thus seeing and knowing a multicultural society as normal, and again more able to withstand media BS The media in the country is run by a bunch of far right plutocrats. Each and every day, they pump in more and more hateful divisive BS. What drives voting patterns is how capable you are as a person to stand up to it. Everything else is noise.

[@eightiesmusic1984]

Well said. Nailed it.

[@jessery475]

Correct, if youve been educated to think critically and understand how to research properly, while also being exposed to a range of cultures you are bound to have different views to those who have been fed a diet of shite from the right wing press. They frame this as being elitist but its not - its just those that dont have the time or desire to study these things only have the ideas theyve picked up from the background noise of right wing media in this country. ITs a failure of our eductation system and to me it seems very deliberate.

[@jonathandnicholson]

@@jessery475 '... it is ...' or at least '... it's ...'. '... its ..'. is possessive, so who does it (whatever it is) belong to? I would prefer more precision on the it, but I will accept it as a lazy token. Also, a lot of smart people have never been to university for whatever reason. The Guardian and its writers are not correct about everything.

[@jonathandnicholson]

Classic. You and Jessery prove Matthew Goodwin's point.

[@marktaylor6491]

@@jessery475 it is very deliberate. Educated people are much harder to control.

[@michaelsmithy5814]

Matt Goodwin nailed it 100% correct. You only have to see how Matt Wright expresses a hard left view how he deals with race and capitalism which he wants to control. Rotherham is an example of how the authorities view race.

[@grobknoblin5402]

TUBBY GLASSES GUY NEEDS TO OPEN HIS HOUSE UP TO LOVELY MIGRANTS

[@Martin-88]

He doesn't own one yet according to what he said, despite having a degree from Cambridge 😂. What a clown.

[@kingshousetube]

Be nice to him, he is expressing his views and I think it is quite interesting even though I totally disagree with his views.

[@jacobwilkins3532]

But the Right hasn't been in power, not truly. We've had pretty much the same government since 1997, two parties doing the same thing: importing cheap labour, focusing on a London-centric economy, and showing no concern for British culture and values. The Conservative Party, with the exception of a few backbenchers, aren't conservative.

[@LargeChap]

'Weak men create bad times' is summed up by this boy's impotent rage.

[@Jay_Johnson]

I'm not gonna lie seeing mic wright getting his anger out on all this gaslighting from the Right was very satisfying.

[@PoldarkGodzilla]

Gas lighting how , please elaborate

[@Jay_Johnson]

@@PoldarkGodzilla That there is this LGBTQ agenda or plan that we are all part of. That at we apparently know about and are trying to implement but ask any LGBTQ+ person or ally and they will respond in the exact same way; "I wish I had a copy of this LGBTQ agenda". It doesn't exist. That the left is apparently the elite with all the power. If that were the case why have we had neoliberals in government for 44 years. Neoliberalism which is the exact form of economic liberalism Matt Goodwin himself subscribes to. That the left completely supports free movement of people maintaining an imperialistic brain drain on the rest of the world. We don't. We do need to invest in education and our health system but what matt leaves out is why people from the UK don't want to become doctors and that is because they are not payed enough to be worth 7-8 years of student debt. As Wright says there are more straw men in this debate than in the wicker man. repeatedly assigning these strawman beliefs onto people who are continually saying they do not believe them is gaslighting.

[@Aarenby]

​@@PoldarkGodzilla the notion that the left has any power in the last 30 years

[@TheInfiltrator101]

The jobless, angry, sexually frustrated left.

[@johnatkinson7479]

utter nonsense..if one looked at this exchange with genuine neutral eyes one guy constantly figits, huffs and puffs and acts childish the other does not If you define the quality of debate on childish postures i feel sorry for you

[@TheMarauder1974]

Good to see some very opposing views argue it out rather than safe echo chamber. Worthwhile session.

[@johnmoorefilm]

Alright mate?!❤

[@DEVRIMCI2007]

Politics Joe is the most leftist bias ecochamber channel I have seen.

[@JustIn-mu3nl]

Agree. Although I really wish neither could say what way they leaned politically and just let the strength of their argument hold weight, the whole world seems to have been polarised that a person will decide on that premise alone rather than reason.

[@gearoftones8585]

Not when one of them is a head banger spouting nonsense. I don't mind a debate when each side has a view based on facts and evidence but things like this are a complete waste of time. Views and money are even starting to become more important to these channels that I mistakenly thought valued truth and evidence, as opposed to some nut jobs personal opinion. They'll be having Nadine Dorries on next ffs

[@djbobhoskins]

My God.... there are certainly legitimate criticisms of Goodwin's book but how old this is Mic guy? He just comes across like someone who can't focus, think rationally, or even speak in a respectful, adult way. Aaron Bastani's interview with Goodwin on Novara was a much better discussion of these issues imo.

[@robdunkerley2564]

the attire and temperament of both of them perfectly sums up the left vs the right

[@bobrichards9418]

😩 Always known that Goodwin is unspeakable but Mic is just all over the place. His histrionics are over the top and not professional.

[@1abeesty]

The guy on the left is too emotional and inarticulate. He never responds directly to any points and just rants with no structure at all. I think he was arguing against a caricature of someone who is “right wing” and not engaging or understanding the person in front of him. This could have been an interesting debate but next time someone more intelligent and less emotional should be used to represent the left. Missed opportunity.

[@lettucemonster]

Mic was obnoxious and didn't make his case - his constant sighing was pretty pathetic as well

[@sgtDrumriX]

My primary concern with this debate is that it continues the age old addage of: Right looking calm and orderly because they're just pissing in the wind, whilst the Left looks unruly and chaotic because someone just pissed in their face whilst whistling away. also the title's for each person 'author' vs 'media commentator' one sounds more established than the other, so whatever way you swing it; this doesn't appear balanced and fair at a glance. Which is unfortunate, because that results in a debate which genuinely flails around the topics which it wants to address, mostly because there is this asymmetry in the framing of the debate. Matt gets to sit there without feeling pressure to engage, because he's there to sell his book, but Mic is there as the foil (which Mic rightly points out) the Left is used as little more than a bad actor in much political discourse, because Matt is framed as the incumbent to be challenged, whereas in a fair debate, neither should be seen as presupposed, because that un-levels the game, and puts all the pressure on challengers such as Mic. Suffice to say, Matt got his publicity for his shitty Ideas about how our system is faulty, but Mic predominantly gave the impression of a tired bitter advocate of the people, who just wants Matt to shut the f--k up, so I can't even really enjoy this knowing that the goal of the short-sighted person was achieved through the structure of the discourse.

[@Ben-fk9ey]

I feel like Mic needed to argue point by point, and to be fair he does say a few times that Matt has just said multiple different points and he's constantly on the back foot in the argument because of it.

[@fungibu7184]

I think we on the left are far too insecure to engage with the other side and it's partly why we let this stuff fester in our society. You would have to be an absolute troglodyte to think that Matt the A.I. generated "reasonable" right winger won this debate. Mic did an incredible job. He made several points where he made everyone laugh because they knew he was right! Yeah, he was butting in, but the polite decorum can only take them so far. It's the decades of media intimidation about eating bacon sandwiches that we need to get rid of. If they go low, we go go for the kidneys!

[@jonathandnicholson]

PoliticsJoe: 'Matthew Goodwin has this new book which talks about a, b, c ...' Mic Wright: 'I disagree with Matthew Goodwin.' PJ: Oh, so what did you find disagreeable about the book Goodwin wrote: Faulty premise or illogical conclusion?'

[@hesterwright3674]

We need better debaters on the left. The right makes it hard by purposely using tactics like you said, but the left needs to learn them and face them calmly without becoming outraged. Easier said than done obvs but the right won't stop being disingenuous so

[@johnmorris3894]

Correct. Should read 'author who collects dodgy data and misrepresenta statistics.'

[@markkerridge8084]

Mic comes off as a petulant child.. Sigh, sigh, huff, huff. Put a side worn baseball cap on him and he'd be a dead ringer for Kevin the teenager. As an old school leftie who would like to see the tories kicked out, the modern left would do well to pay attention to what goodwin has to say and reflect on it rather than simply rejecting it.

[@skyblazeeterno]

What exactly is Goodwin trying to say?

[@DeyanKanov]

Cudos to PoliticsJOE for hosting a civilised debate between people with different view points. What I don't get is why a lot of people can't accept that both of them have something valid to say. I have left-leaning views regarding economic policy. That doesn't prevent me from having conservative views on cultural issues. I think discussing economic policy, in particular the tax system, is a topic much more important than the "culture war" but some people view the culture issues as equally or even more important. Sounds like Matt is one such person and he makes some good points. Mic's overly emotional style of debating doesn't do him any favours, too much ranting, too little substance, undermines his argument and just loses me, especially when he says stuff like "you didn't say it but your body language blah blah blah"... Especially comparing modern Britain to the Soviet Union...even as a joke the comparison is ridiculous to anyone who knows anything about the Soviet Union. btw, I am a Bulgarian and I don't mind a Bulgarian rapist being reported as such. I immigrated because I believe that the UK is a country with a much stronger rule of law and if other immigrants break the law in any way, shape or form I feel very strongly about this being highlighted as a problem and punished. In countries where the rule of law is ... less than satisfactory you can get away with a lot. This should never become the norm here and scrutiny by society and the media can only help.

[@johnmorris3894]

Matt will have something valuable to say when he starts collecting valid data and stops misrepresenting statistics.

[@DeyanKanov]

@@johnmorris3894 Any examples of misrepresented statistics?

[@johnmorris3894]

@@DeyanKanov Loads. Google is friend. Your comment about the media playing a positive role in Britain, and the rule of law are naive at best.

[@DeyanKanov]

​@@johnmorris3894 I was pretty sure I would get a reply with no examples and something like "do your own research", how typical. So you can't give a single example of "misrepresenting statistics" and want me to do a search to validate your opinion? And then you try to deflect by calling me naive(which I may be, but that's beside the point). And we didn't even discuss what you mean by "collecting valid data", does Mic Wright going to a pub in Rotherham count as "collecting valid data"?

[@johnmorris3894]

Mic Wright's methods are about as rigorous as the 'surveys' that Goodwin designs and circulates. Wouldn't get higher than 58 at undergrad level. Wright doesn't cosplay as a professional researcher though.

[@Fgame6457]

" Im very left wing, and i don't see my opinions on the BBC." . Couldn't agree more with Mic .

[@mrcuddlebuns1000]

Doesn’t mean the bbc doesn’t have a cultural bias. The bbc isn’t communist but it’s still left wing.

[@DJWESG1]

@Hughie Marks being lefty isn't bias. It's the proper human position against rw loons and power.

[@danielsharp8265]

@@DJWESG1 I couldn’t decide if this comment was a joke at first Wes, but I think you might be serious, scary stuff pal.

[@Ainsyuk]

​@@mrcuddlebuns1000 it's been run by a committee to which government appointed members control all recruitment since David Cameron dissolved the independent BBC trust in 2016. Their political content is not left wing at all, it's editorial direction is literally dictated by people rubber stamped into their jobs by the Tories. Can only assume the complaints of left wing bias arise from their cultural content and the few left wing comedians they employ.

[@Farhaad-ll3qn]

How's that relevant to the points Matthew is making? Matthew is not criticising the Left. He's criticising the woke elite.

[@kildogery]

Matt's just annoyed he gets called out for being a bigot. Same story as ever.

[@evolassunglasses4673]

Yawn

[@kildogery]

@@evolassunglasses4673 hi Matt 👋

[@paulwalker797]

@@evolassunglasses4673 another pointless comment from you...trolling as usual. Don't you have any friends?

[@fergalcussen]

It is indeed the same boring old story: don't address the argument at all, just call the person making it a name like "bigot", like any overgrown 12-year-old would.

[@danielcrafter9349]

​@@fergalcussen- you! You're Woke! Everything I Don't Like Is Woke!

[@guywalsh3283]

Real talk, is there something wrong with Mik? He’s dressed like a 14 year old and he’s huffing and puffing like a 4 year old on a shopping trip? The audio guy needs to be better with the volume control of the guest who isn’t speaking.

[@guywalsh3283]

OMFG Mic is insufferable. He’s like a little child not getting his way. 😂😂😂

[@johnmoorefilm]

Dear Mic , it may prove effective if you internalise your frustrations rather than letting your opponent know exactly how far under your skin he is getting? I coached actors my whole life: you can pace your breathing so you can spot the breaks in his sentence structure and intercede effectively. Sighing, though very natural, is a very depleting waste of energy: it is the body dumping adrenaline that could be more usefully deployed. I have no truck with your points or politics, I offer only friendly advice.

[@cleopeacock4607]

The trouble is, John, some people debate with actual feeling and intention and care and are not putting on a performance. If Mic is anything less than polished at any time I suspect it's because he doesn't care to be polished. These are extremely serious and very real issues and we're worried about breathing...

[@wick2184]

@@cleopeacock4607 I think you're missing the point. If you care about a topic deeply enough, you care enough to work on fighting for it effectively. We can all be pushed to anger, but if you want to effectively dismantle someone's argument getting angry (while natural) isn't the best way to get across your counter points.

[@cleopeacock4607]

@@wick2184 Mic wasn't angry. He was passionate and happy to wear his heart on his sleeve. It was hardly a slanging match. It was reasoned and impassioned. Also, I refuse to be restrained by someone else's idea of what is acceptable in a debate. Politeness will kill us. "I'm terribly sorry but may I please have some social change that suits my needs and not just the rich and powerful please? Thanks Awfully." Burn it all down. Start caring about people and not optics.

[@atee876]

@@cleopeacock4607 do you want to convince people or just have a bit of a rant? if it is the former then calmness and an air of control is essential. we are trying to convince right wing thinking people, and getting emotional in any way will give them the chance to follow their conditioning, which will be to dismiss all the arguments made by the left wing person. these are people who have been deeply conditioned to preprogrammed responses, and to get the truth in there we need to beat them at their game. so Mic should have simply answered one point max per reply, best to stick to one point for two or three replies really, and just calm measured tones, like one would with a recalcitrant child or dog, to logically dismantle Matt's general argument. he had the chance to write up notes and stick to them, Matt has a book after all so some homework and some thought out arguments would have made this a walkover... as it was i think that right wingers will see this as a win for Matt sadly. i would have gone with the tack of "not a new elite, just the old elite playing a new tactic with some new members" as my general strategy, and ignored the distractions. any attempt to address the gish galloping, or to get the moderator to keep Matt on track, will be seen as weakness by right wing thinkers, so people who get stressed or stroppy about the low level of right wing debate will have lost the battle before they started. i knew that no right wingers would be convinced by Mic when he was defensive and clearly uncomfortable looking just sat there at the start of this "debate". it is sad to need to "act" in a certain way to get through to these people, but that is the case, and they will not change when confronted with anger or upset, they will dismiss us as "emotional hippies" etc. i do understand Mics frustration, but he should have been smarter dressed, calmer in behaviour, sat in a confident and relaxed posture and spoken from a position of authority and command. Hopefully next time eh?

[@cleopeacock4607]

@@atee876 Perhaps you should consider how your demand for certain arbitrary talismans of respectability supports the status quo and panders to the idea of only one method of debate constituting a respectable one. I manage to respect people who are wearing a t-shirt and speaking passionately. Perhaps you could work on respecting them too? That way the smartest dressed and most calmly spoken person in the room won't always be the one you give the win to. What next? No shouting at protests? Saying thank you for the meagre concessions we are afforded by the men in the smart suits? If the audience do not demand suits and calm voices, we can progress beyond it. Let the right say we care too much. That is not a negative if we don't allow it to be.

[@Lincslad17]

whilst i agree with Mics views i think this debating style and mics behaviour and approach illustrates what Matt is talking about. Mic says he listens, engages and respects but then doesn’t enable a debate, he likes to speak uninterrupted but then interrupts Matt when he’s speaking in the name of debate and to that end isn’t really engaging with the issue and disrespects through words and behaviour Matts views. Matt views and book. All valid points but not a great debating style

[@DAN13LS70NE]

I noticed this as well, for me it's really a catch 22 here. I've done these sorts of debates myself. When people interrupt it is infuriating, when its just back and forth with no interruptions i think the debate becomes quite anodyne. Very difficult to moderate.

[@Lincslad17]

@@DAN13LS70NE yeah totally get that! it is difficult especially when your trying to get your point across. I do agree with Mic though, i could feel his frustration at times 🤣

[@georgemulford2910]

What specific views of his do you agree with?

[@michaelmcqueen4514]

Mic Wright was acting like a child. what an embarrassment

[@rjd1985]

Famously, Oxbridge students didn’t dominate positions of power before this ‘new elite’ appeared 🤡 8:40

[@yoyo-lf3ld]

Mic is the elite, mathew is talking about lmao

[@loubieloujones5698]

Quite so

[@NotThatOneThisOne]

The "woke" are the problem...by the fact that I'm redefining woke to mean something that it doesn't mean.

[@hg82met]

Reminds me of a cartoon I recently saw: - Everybody knows that the biggest threat this country faces is wokeness! - Uh huh, and what does 'woke' actually mean? - ... Listen, I think it's a little unfair to expect me to know the meaning of a word I only use 150 times a day.

[@stpirate89]

Woke doesn't mean anything anymore (not in the way that it's banded around on the likes of GBNews, etc.). He goes on to define the Liberal Elite (which was pretty fucking ridiculous) but never defines woke. Probably because it doesn't mean anything.

[@PoldarkGodzilla]

Here we go , woke means what it now means … a class of people who ignore nuance , context and facts if it goes their ideology which could be in regards to race , gender or history , they are happy to engage in cancel culture

[@segue2ant395]

@@stpirate89 Woke meant the same thing in the 70s as it does today - nothing's changed. Right-wingers trying to use it as an insult all of a sudden are just telling on themselves.

[@SonOfExcess]

Sorry but since when does the left have a clear understanding of the definition of woke? I thought your favourite question was asking what it means. It’s super simple, woke = hyper progressive left

[@agbuckley]

Love the idea that new grads move to London to benefit from its definitely-not-insane housing market

[@GangdangleOfficialChannel]

Would you rather live in a house that costs £800,000 while earning £120,000 a year or a £150,000 house while earning £21,000?

[@agbuckley]

@@GangdangleOfficialChannel That's not the choice. The £800k house imposes a deposit requirement so high that most grads moving to London will not be able to buy, and chances are that rent will be as expensive, so saving will take years. And only a few grad jobs will pay £120k in early years. The London housing market benefits those who bought there decades ago, and the rich.

[@GangdangleOfficialChannel]

@@agbuckley Yes, wont be a problem if mommy and daddy have a few bob lying around for a deposit. From my experience at university (Russel Group) this is probably the situation for at least 60% of the students. Moreso, for that lot a high paying job isn't necessary. The costs in London are most expensive yes, but they will more then pay themselves off in terms of social connection and opportunity. The perfect place for those with a proclivity for nepotism. Once you're firmly in such circles you're laughing. Like all groups they look after their own. Its a natural thing. The idea of the graduate class isn't a new thing. In my mind its just a modern twist on the idea of the intelligentsia. No lefty would deny the existence of this class. Unless of course it suits you, as it does them, to portray them selves on the side of the proletariat. No, it is industrialists and scientists who invent, create and employ are who shall be blamed for the woes the working man faces as he tries to scrabble up the social ladder. For more may i suggest these excellent lectures; kzbin.info/www/bejne/pGrIYZprqMR_ec0 kzbin.info/www/bejne/an6uhIOhaqZ_Y6M Regardless, if you do live in London, even for ten or so years you will be far better off then not living there - if, or rather when, you decide to leave. I know a fella who rents out a tiny flat there, he uses this to pay for his mortgage on his recently brought 6 bedroom house. Anecdote I know, but I think this is illustrative of many such cases.

[@Michael-sh1fb]

​@@agbuckley of course saving a deposit will take years. Very few expect to be in a position to buy immediately after graduating, wherever they live. I personally know multiple couples where both are higher earners who bought houses for £800k+ before turning 30. They're not exceptional, in terms of ability, they just work in tech and finance.

[@icowley502]

Mic was wildly emotional and incapable of a fact based discussion. We will not come together until emotion is taken out of the debate and we start discussing things rationally.

[@cleopeacock4607]

Emotional is not the antithesis of logical; Illogical is. MG made nothing but illogical points. Be careful what you mistake for reason because it is said calmly while wearing a suit

[@andrewburridge5958]

Tbh you can see even the chair is tired of him at points

[@mhkpt]

TL;DL Oxbridge grads who agree with Matt are common sense, salt of the earth people, while Oxbridge grads who disagree are woke elites.

[@clappedoutmotor]

Pathetic isn't it

[@ianthediver2541]

“At last”, I thought, “a proper debate on these issues.” Matt Goodwin makes an awful lot of sense to me but I want his views to be properly tested. I want to hear the counter arguments before I make up my mind. I didn’t hear any counter arguments. I watched a ‘performance’ as Mic held his head in his hands and threw books on the table etc. Maybe his microphone was too close to his mouth, but his constant sighing only added an air of petulance to the debate. Mic’s line of argument largely consisted of “I don’t agree / it’s not true”. Mic, I don’t care if you don’t agree. That’s merely your view, which of course you are entitled to, but I want to know why you don’t agree. What evidence? What line of reasoning? Aside from your opinion, why is Matt wrong to come to the conclusions he does? Has anyone been able to give Matt a hard time ?

[@hjhw100]

I think George Orwell was broadly correct when he said that the left is primarily defined by bitterness towards the right. It seems that there is no left side to this arguement, only why the right is so wrong, which ultimately will always devolve into a conversation where nobody will find common ground.

[@GodsOwnPrototype]

@PoliticsJOE The whole rest of the world of foreign peoples could come to the UK & it wouldn't have to be a problem; it could be great in fact. The problem is that they stay in mass numbers & techno-cultural imports, (private motoring dependency/ mass pornographic media/ untempered consumption/ dispirate multiculturalism etc) are not subject to a priority for sustainable native deference. This has been undemocratic from the start, it changes life for native peoples in their homeland in ways they can't control & often aren't good for them; dilutes their voice in culture (inc the economy) & their vote in politics. It hobbles & corrodes family formation & cultural continuity that is hard enough with mere technological change but has combined to a point where the cultural implosion & demographic minoritisation of at least the English nation in England is mere decades away. Indifference or malice addresses on motive not causes or outcome; ignoring or downplaying the Existential aspect is total foolishness given the increasing likeliness of bad results that will increase in severity the longer it continues & the later the realisation breaks out. So why continue it?

[@georgehetty7857]

Great comment.

[@GodsOwnPrototype]

@@georgehetty7857 Thanks, give it a like?

[@georgehetty7857]

@@GodsOwnPrototype No problem 🥳

[@Jonzo1989]

Matt managed to say nothing whilst saying lots. Typical classic elite I'd say

[@danielcrafter9349]

Typical Right-winger tbh

[@joetrent4753]

He just spouted a load of untrue and lazy rhetoric that people like him are parroting without really providing any facts to prove what he says has any merit and truth. This so-called 'woke elite' don't actually exist and is just a construct for people to blame rather than actually form any arguments and substance into the debate of their own.

[@johnatkinson7479]

in what way did he say nothing?..disagree if you wish but his points are not nothing

[@Aarenby]

So yeah he is a typical elite wannabe. He might be the first of his family to go into uni- but he has taken the accent, posture and dress of the upper classes.

[@PoldarkGodzilla]

What bollocks you speak , and that’s why his book is doing as you are proving his point and not being objective

[@edwardwilliamson1]

The 'new elite' is a straw man if I ever saw one

[@TBakerXD]

It's worse than that - it's a desperate rehashing of ancient divide and conquer tactics. Since "the youth" aren't falling for "the other" being foreigners and minorities anymore, the right is making the new targets anyone that embodies or teaches them about inclusivity- sorry, "wokeness"

[@mattjolly8060]

It sounds like it's a "straw 10+ million people"! I get that many working class provincial towns have been left behind economically and many of those living there sometimes feel socially like this "isn't their country any more", but to blame a "woke university class" for this seems to confuse cause and effect and to ignore groups within groups. As Mic points out, there are lots of people who identify as working class who will be earning far more than the "new elite" Matt describes. Then on the social side there are probably huge differences between age groups within those same towns, with older groups less likely to embrace newer and more progressive attitudes. So, what's Matt up to in crafting this blunt weapon? Well, surely his days as a small time Politics Prof will soon be over and he'll become one of the new generation of National Conservative politicians...

[@toi_techno]

The idea that you can join an elite just by getting an arts degree is about the lowest bar to enter into an "elite" ever.

[@johntowler4928]

You're confusing "straw man" with "uncomfortable fact that I want to reject".

[@muzzler24]

@@mattjolly8060 Paul Calf.

[@rehanvdhreganvdh]

Credit to both Matthew and Mic for at least agreeing to the debate and keeping it fairly civil.

[@odhrangallagher5738]

Mic didn't really do that.

[@UglyRugby]

@@odhrangallagher5738yep, he demanded to not be interrupted and then interrupted Matthew every single time he opened his mouth.

[@NiallTubes]

"Woke" itself has become a strawman because it means whatever the person using it (normally as an insult) wants it to mean. Asking them to define it usually demonstrates this as you can easily find someone else using it with a very different definition.

[@curt3494]

The term was originally popularised by progressives.

[@johnmorris3894]

Usually they use it as a substitute for the N word.

[@mc.8391]

I wonder if the people that have a problem understanding what the word "woke" is taken to mean, is that their knowledge of numerous happenings of different/ various groups in this country, in europe, in the world is narrow. If it was wider they would see the ideology that is running through all the groups, like the Police, Education, NHS, Immigration etc etc. is the same. Pushing info that is not factual, policing thoughts that are not crimes, medical terms that are false, teaching children untruths......... all of which the public are not allowed to criticise without being called insulting names...

[@crazyhorse2542]

😂@@johnmorris3894

[@angloirishcad]

Woke is an American concept, completely misunderstood in Britain. And it has quite belligerent divisive roots...as Matt points out its not liberalism, quite the opposite.

[@mrdylanhannah]

Mic really didn’t do a good job here guys. Although i agree with his politics he came across screechy, slightly scatter minded and overwhelmed. Not a good look for the left when your offered right wing properganda on a plate. Matt was default righting properganda manufactured points we’ve heard endlessly for years. So easy to rebuttal but unfortunately Mic wasn’t up for the job this time even though all his points were fair. He needed a better composure and to tally up Matts bs into a strong argument without getting flustered. Emotions are fine, in fact anger can be really powerful but getting overwhelmed and less able hit nails on heads feels like your missing open goals.

[@whereugothereur]

Totally agree, I was very surprised. I think the thing that made it worse was that early on Mic clapped back at Goodwin for (a) going off on tangents and (b) interrupting and then ended up doing the same meaning that he raised it simply to score meaningless 'style' points (which he of course ended up handing right back by going on tangents and interrupting himself) and to try and place himself on the front foot out the gate by psyching Goodwin out, rather than through his arguments. I'm a fan of Mic's writing so I was not expecting to come away with this conclusion, to which I will add some petty gripes, his occasional literal shrillness, his fondness - despite having a notebook- for arguably inaccurately caricaturing something Goodwin had just said (a technique more appropriate for writing than productive debate- led to a lot of/I didn't say that/you did kinda/not really tho/ type back and forth), his other props (Goodwin's book with book marked pages, the photo copied article/study), his passive aggressive asides and his overuse of word 'notion' (the most glaring manifestation of his descent into inarticulacy caused I agree, by a surfeit of emotion, including bizarrely, genuine incredulity... as if we don't already know how Goodwin presents his arguments?). And, as usual from one of his ilk (of which I am one to be clear) it was incredibly easy to draw him into a 'Labour is also a Thatcherite Neo-Liberal Party' which they don't seem to realise is not a beneficial concession but distraction squirrel its easy to get you chasing after by the time you've finished moaning about Blair and Starmer time is up and you never mentioned Cameron, Johnson or Truss?!? In the end I learned a lot about Mic's life and what he thinks about everything and a lot less about how Matthew Goodwin, whose thesis they were debating, is wrong. It did get better towards the end but the time was mostly wasted. Just reminded myself that a couple of points Mic tried some Gotchas I think along the lines of why does Goodwin appear on this channel or write for this this newpaper...FGS we all know he's a scam artiste, your job is to expose the emptiness of his ARGUMENT... It should have been easy, as many have in these comments, to develop the theme old people don't like change and they never will (and YET change cannot be stopped) into a devastating comprehensive critique but Mic was too busy down in the weeds with tropes like my old Nan loves Drag Race and believes in Live and Let Live or whatever and wasn't in the mood condense Goodwins worldview to achieve some tidy wins (contrast with Mogg vs Purkiss she narrowed the points - you said stuff would be cheaper and you say you believe in free speech, and then hammered home the counter evidence, she didn't waste time talking about what *she* believed OR every single thing that is wrong with JRM, tight focus and KO). Just two people talking past each other, saying what they always say, and Goodwin ultimately doing that to better effect since he remained calm, fluent and polite the whole way through, the extremely lucrative Peterson model (completely with the ludicrous spectacle of a social scientist who believes in a woke conspiracy claiming to be a adherent of a data-data- science-science-stem-stem cumming/musk rational and evidence based model of reality) as others have observed.

[@atee876]

@@whereugothereur well put! i really wished Mic was calmer and just went in with points taken from Matts book and arguments to destroy them. oh well, maybe next time! i think Aaron Bastani did a better, but not perfect, job on Novara, but we need someone to sit down and actually plan out a take down of Matts nonsense, and have them deliver it from a position of calm, teacherly, slightly condescending authority that is currently amused to be dealing with the small minded right winger. the angry, slovenly hippie approach does not convince right wingers, and i speak as an often angry, occasionally slovenly appearing hippie! if i were doing this i would have brushed and gelled/producted my hair into a ponytail and worn a really nice suit that was tailored properly, with a sharp but not too flashy tie, and a tie pin, hankie in the pocket, the works! it would help if the person we could get on looked smart, the right wing thinkers accept data more from that look than from baggy hoodies and unkempt appearance.

[@freppers2666]

@@whereugothereur couldn’t have put it better myself. Mic’s “pub style” of debating needs to remain in the pub. I agree with most of what he said but would find myself excusing myself to go to the bar or the toilet to get away from his confrontational, emotional, sighing style of “debate”. He needs to massively improve his debating skills and knock down his opponents’ arguments without using personal anecdotes or straw men while still showing some respect to his opponents

[@freppers2666]

And I can’t stand his hypocrisy. He criticised the other guy for interrupting him, yet he did it constantly. He criticised the other guy for using straw men, yet he did it constantly. He criticised the other guy for using vocal tone and body language that indicated that he thought he was an idiot, yet he did it constantly. Mic did the left no favours at all with this performance.

[@TheReubstar]

Amen

[@GodsOwnPrototype]

14:05 What is wrong with the 3 things he mentioned? Their antithesis is literally an impersonal global corporation.

[@johnpiper9359]

I don't know who this Mic Wright dude is but don't book him again. Don't agree with Goodwin whatsoever but this Mic guy is just nuts. Wouldn't stay on topic or speak coherently. .

[@JBengey]

Don't agree with him whatsoever? What don't you agree with exactly the statistics? Or the reality of the situation? I am confused as to how you can't see the problem we face. You are part of the problem.

[@charliemcquade7071]

"There's a new elite" *Proceeds to describe the established elite

[@benboothroyd1523]

Matt is arguing (I think) that the new elite are those uni-educated, well-off professionals who hold disproportionate CULTURAL power, rather than merely economic. The “old” elite (which Matt still argues exists, and which are clearly evidenced in the universities, I know because I see them every day) are economically powerful, but have never had disproportionate cultural power. The new elite imposes itself on culture and, when combined with its economic power and media influence, can actually impact culture. If that is accepted, that is clearly a major issue, as it is a minority of posh wankers imposing their cultural beliefs on a lower class and less educated majority. How do you think it got so that most uni students are impartial or in support of mass immigration, when it has historically been opposed by the vast majority of Britons? (And still is today). Because the new elite have influence in the institutions. That does NOT mean the old elite do not - they do, trust me. But the new elite have the influence to enforce new cultural norms and attitudes on naive uni kids. Both types of elite exist - the “old money” and the “new (cultural) elite”.

[@siryeetsleyiii872]

You didn't watch the whole debate, did you?

[@jdg9999]

He's not suggesting they sprang out of the ground is he? As he says elsewhere, elites adopted a lot of this as a ploy to maintain power.

[@bryankinney1]

Are you too dumb to understand what he said or just pretending

[@theinngu5560]

Matt is spot on and explains what happens very clearly. Mic’s anger prevents him having the space to actually consider what Matt is saying.

[@theinngu5560]

Unfortunately people are so entrenched in their views and so defensive that they never really listen and never consider the alternative argument even when there is proof…they double down, shout or scream and shut the other down ..see it in the comments too….I wonder then what is the point of debate and sorry to say but from what I see the left or far left get more nasty in their condemnation of the other side than anyone else. When you get angry and or spiteful, right there your mind is closed and stressed and nothing can be heard. It’s sad because there could be learning and one might say, ‘ Oh really, does that happen ? I never considered that. I will think about it as you could be right.’ Instead it’s so often , ‘No, you are wrong. I am right. I won’t listen and I am going to give you all the proof I am right and insult you and label you and hate you to boot.’ War of words are what starts war in the world. Perhaps we can grow up and listen to views we might find unpleasant or at the very least be polite and not insult each other.

[@nagaraworkshop]

Sadly, when I was growing up in the 50s and 60s, very few people were either politically correct or woke. As a result, everyone who wasn't a white, hetero cis man was routinely bullied, beaten and otherwise abused by the traditional elite and their allies. Things changed hugely up until about the year 2000, when progress started to wain, and now all those social and political leaps forward are being criticised by people like Goodwin. It seems to me that he is a prime example of white male fragility in that he sees a danger in previously marginalised groups gaining parity with the established order. btw, if he thinks woke people are anti-science he should try and test the rhetoric of the ruling classes on issues like climate change and poverty; they are immune to reality as are the current crop of Tories who run everything. There is no woke elite; the oppressed are still oppressed and the corporate kings still own everything. If Goodwin really believes what he says, I don't know how he manages to hold a down a job - unless of course his employers are as right wing as him.

[@alkhemiegypt]

I was born in 1961 and I agree with your analysis. There was a time when I thought society was progressing in the right direction, i.e. towards more equality, but we’re now going in the opposite direction. It’s like he’s trying to gas-light us into thinking society is more progressive than it is. You’re so right: white, middle-class, regressive, male fragility. “To those accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”

[@johngilliam6764]

​@@alkhemiegyptHow are we going in the opposite direction.We're getting more liberal as a society. Also,why does no one ever talk about black male fragility?

[@Lennon6412]

Reminds me of those people who study cults before getting taken in and joining them.

[@samsamtherising]

Hahahaha, fully agree! I was watching this and thought...you have become what you have studied! 🤣🤣🤣

[@vthomas375]

We're all born into the Globe cult and most are then indoctrinated in.

[@skyblazeeterno]

Nietzsche and gazing into the abyss

[@LordBillington42]

If I'm 20 minutes in and there hasn't been a single piece of data, or a proper working definition, provided for the majority of what is being discussed, I don't really have much to grasp onto. I can't listen to the rest. I can feel my brain rotting.

[@vthomas375]

It's the standard level of discourse. One side trying to impose (or bully) their ideology/subjectivity onto another because it suits them. Only when objectivity and practicality becomes the international form of communication between people and subjectivity is cast in the back seat will progress begin.

[@realitychick4502]

My thoughts exactly … anecdotes and emotionality are tedious at this point.

[@ozkii95]

Has Mic ever actually had a conversation? Or does he expect Matt to present his case in easily-digestible snippets? He literally has pen and paper in front of him. He could easily jot down Matt's salient points and respond to them once he's finished.

[@michaelingram8056]

His performance was just pathetic. He totally failed to focus on what was actually being said, and constantly drifted off into talking about himself, mixed in with random ramblings about politics generally.

[@gavinrichards6601]

I love it how Mic doesn't/Can't answer any tough questions. It's all emotion and infantile

[@danwalcott]

I probably share more beliefs with Mic, but his attitude, body language and general demeanour makes him very unlikeable

[@GMADDEN]

It’s funny how hard Matt Goodwin is trying to be Jordan Peterson's mini me

[@jonathandnicholson]

Maybe Matthew Goodwin and Jordan Peterson have a point and are converging on the same point because the point is true. 'Playing the man not the ball' eh. Also, Peterson's not Petersons. As far as I know I do not think Jordan Petersons exists or Jordan Peterson has become multiple Petersons.

[@jangomoonstomp]

​@@jonathandnicholson they have a point, it's just wrong.

[@jonathandnicholson]

@@jangomoonstomp That makes no sense whatsoever. Either someone has a point or the person is wrong. You can have a claim about a change and be wrong, but not a point and be wrong. Unless you are using the 'not really happening, but great that it is' argument.

[@skyblazeeterno]

​@@jonathandnicholson pedantic punctuation/grammar nazi

[@jangomoonstomp]

@@jonathandnicholson I'm sorry you don't understand my point.

[@MT-kx2uc]

Is he trying to be the UK's Jordan Peterson? 😂😂

[@eightiesmusic1984]

God knows why but You Tube keeps on showing Jordan Peterson segments that pop up despite the fact I keep saying I do not want to see it and do not like the clips. I really object to seeing him appear.

[@geeman.8081]

He needs to give himself brain damage in a Russian hospital first though?

[@hg82met]

He needs to start doing a lot more crying and BS'ing to achieve Jordan Peterson levels of fandom.

[@joetrent4753]

@@eightiesmusic1984 You have to click on 'don't recommend channel' if you want those video's to stop appearing.

[@flannel2699]

@@hg82met and sound more like Kermit the frog

[@MrColinkemp]

Mic referring to his 90yr old Gran was his was the most impressive contribution We have lived under a rightwing government for 42 years (I havent I am 82) and the participants have never lived under any other. I agree with Mic in every point of the debate. "New" elite (If there is one) is just an update of the "Old" one

[@Mark-IamNum1]

Interesting argument, but looking at things 10 months on, Matt appears to have the clearest and more accurate view of people's current opinions/feelings/views.

[@poesie6279]

Ash Sarkar was on a programme with Angela Smith who spoke about people of a funny tinge! And MG is sceptical, that she is badly treated by the media.

[@fizzymilk_]

I would love to see Mic on Question Time, but based on this performance they'd be too scared to book him.

[@marktaylor6491]

On it? They should sack Fiona Bruce and let him run it.

[@TBakerXD]

​@@marktaylor6491 The problem is the moderator has to be impartial - although I'd love to see him verbally shut down Tory ministers when they start spitting lies

[@keithpanton7486]

@@TBakerXD That seems to be the issue, impartial now means if you call out right wing bullshit, you also have to criticise the left when they point it out.

[@TBakerXD]

@@keithpanton7486 It's the same as how the media think for some reason that they should give conspiracy theorists with no credentials as much clout as the actual experts - "We've heard from the lifetime NASA astrophysicist, but now let's hear from Tony, who built his own telescope and says he can prove the Earth is pyramid-shaped" -_-

[@marktaylor6491]

@@TBakerXD impartial towards what or to whom? If someone lies, they need to be challenged.