Debate: Dr. Josh Bowen & Dr. Majors vs Jonathan Sheffield & Dr. Stephen Boyce on The Book of Daniel

[@mk05022]

Interesting debate! I would have wished the open discussion segment and cross examination be longer. I wanted to hear more of the discussion about the prophecy of the destruction of the 2nd temple because I did not know that was disputed. It would also be nice to have a discussion about the calculation for the Messiah to come using Daniel 9. I'm a Christian and have always seen the calculation of 69 weeks (of years) to fit with the time of Jesus and correctly occuring before the 2nd temple was destroyed. It does not bother me so much if the book of Daniel was written in the 2nd century but giving som divine insight about the events taking place in the past and making a prophecy about a coming Messiah. Is this calculation heavily disputed in secular scholarship and is it not a plain reading to interpret the destruction of the "sanctuary" to mean the destruction of the 2nd temple? Also, is there any books you would recommend in this topic? Thank you for your time dealing with this Jonathan!

[@HeBrews-Coffee]

As far as I know, secular scholarship is completely at odds with the Christian calculation of Daniel. They didn't get into it in this debate but in Daniel 9 the author is trying to reinterpret the prophecy that Jeremiah was given concerning the restoration of Israel. Jeremiah's prophecy failed, so the author of Daniel is using it and reinterpreting it from being 70 years to being 70 weeks of years. This is pretty explicit from just reading the first two verses of Daniel 9. If we start the prophetic clock at 605 when Israel first became subject to King Nebuchadnezzar and we subtract the 62 7's (434 years) we land on 171 which was when Antiochus had Onias III killed (the anointed high priest at that time aka a messiah). I think within 2 years or so from this Antiochus then erected the statue of Zeus in the temple committing the abomination of desolation. He also slaughtered a lot of people. Jeremiah 25:11-12 + Jeremiah 29:10 are what led me to believe 605 was Daniels intended starting date (the King of Babylon is given 70 years to rule over the nations + 70 years must pass until the restoration begins). The only other potential starting point that makes sense is 539 BCE marking the decree of King Cyrus to rebuild Jerusalem but the numbers don't really match up to anything as far as I am aware. So Christians try to attribute a decree to rebuild Jerusalem to Artaxerxes in 445 because then you can conveniently make the math land on Jesus. But this is just whack since Ezra places the 2nd temple restoration as finished by like 515ish and places "the going out of the decree" in Ezra 1 with Cyrus. The Christian interpretation is just cope that I swallowed for 15 years before I finally researched it myself.

[@PC-vg8vn]

Boyce uses common sense in understanding the history to conclude Daniel was written in the 6th century BC. He's right. Daniel was told centuries before the event that Messiah would come and die for others in 33AD.

[@dk9237]

An authority on a subject should be able to pronounce the names correctly.

[@The_Anglican_Autodidact]

As an autodidact I would have read it, not heard it. Also, I prefer to equate myself with the child in the crowd who yelled out that the emperor has no clothes. Most people try to engage the actual argument instead of attacking the person. It's a well-known logical fallacy (ad hominem). I'm actually flattered because it showcases that you are unable to falsify the evidence I presented in my case.

[@cohenlevilovesyeshuahamash900]

@@The_Anglican_Autodidact Have you ever analyzed Daniel 70 weeks and Zechariah 11 in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem?