Debate: Identity Politics is Tearing Society Apart

Is identity politics tearing society apart or is it a call for social justice for everyone?
For the motion we have:
- journalist and author of 'We Need To Talk About Kevin', Lionel Shriver.
-founding chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, Trevor Phillips.
Against the motion we have:
- Labour politician, David Lammy.
- journalist, Dawn Foster.
Join the conversation, make up your own mind and subscribe to our channel for more videos.
To attend our live events:
www.intelligen...
Listen to our podcast:
www.intelligen...

[@Intelligence-Squared]

From your perspective, what is the role of Identity Politics in society?

[@ashlieregis2412]

Well think about South Africa after apartheid of course there was an equalization but there was never a true understanding of we are all people 🤔

[@coronatempo721]

@BLAIR M Schirmer Exactly! 👍

[@dingdingdingding2871]

@BLAIR M Schirmer 👍 they never ever would dare to do that . That's the real problem. Free speech is dead. All we have now well mostly are just pig farts

[@chrisrhodes2]

Hard to really say. Identity politics is different in every country. Its been weaponized in America to prevent economic or political change.

[@dsmyify]

@BLAIR M Schirmer 👍

[@jmaitland5709]

Lionel at the end of her opening statement: I like dancing, I'm a fan of Graham Greene, Richard Yates, and Edith Wharton, I've published 13 books and they are part of who I am, I like Poldark, I'm mediocre at tennis but still enjoy it, and more. Dawn at the very beginning of her opening statement: I'm a woman, I'm white, I have a disability. The difference in mindset is clear.

[@catrionamacfarlane4949]

The first woman is so self assured and intelligent, the second incoherent and bumbling ..and her continually reminding us she has a disability and flailing her arms about are so annoying.

[@impancaking]

@@catrionamacfarlane4949 perhaps thats why one is more successful than the other.

[@gg_rider]

What actual disability? I don't mean ideological possession. I don't see any disability.

[@jmaitland5709]

@@gg_rider Chances are it's something as simple as her lisp, or maybe autism or anxiety, or something else along those lines. Something that when you say it on it's own it sounds so trivial, but saying "I have a disability" puts you higher up on the identity politics oppression ladder I suppose, anything to make yourself sound slightly more diverse.

[@jimmyart007]

@@gg_rider I believe it's called 'journalist for The Guardian'.

[@leila4509]

“The color of my skin is an arbitrary accident not a personal brand” powerful

[@aakasoto]

Idiotic.

[@i_wouldprefer_not_to1196]

Same as the make up of your (race baiting) genes, eh? 😉

[@leila4509]

@@aakasoto why?

[@davidjensen2999]

There's nothing arbitrary or accidental about it.

[@leila4509]

@@davidjensen2999 It is to me. It is when other people define it by me that I become aware of it.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

"When I look at people, I don't see a list of checkboxes." **five seconds later** "Only white middle class boomers say they're being silenced."

[@blobboflava]

One sounds good the other shows intentions.

[@kyndjal3118]

got a sample of double-speak right there.

[@catherineb2463]

He is so privileged

[@anthonylemkendorf3114]

😂👍👍🏻👍🏼👍🏽👍🏾👍🏿

[@peterbuck4470]

When the cultural Marxist AKA the Left attack you then you can wear any insult as a badge of honour. The Left mostly only attack good people. You know your doing good when the Left don’t like you. We all have better things to do than deal with these mentally corrupt souls but if our grandparents and so many others gave their lives to fight tyranny and totalitarianism then at least we can stand against them and use what’s left of our free speech before they also steel that from us. The cultural Marxist Left continue prove they are a social, cultural and economic wrecking ball. The Left are evil. And are worse than Churchill once described. The philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy It’s inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery Churchill had a lot of experience fighting the NAZIS aka national socialist. So much in common Hated the Jews Hated Democracy Hated Capitalism Lové Racism Lové division, chaos and anarchy Another day another reminder

[@panhandlejake6200]

Dawn Foster's 'boomer' references actually demonstrates the divisiveness in identity politics. She is trying to box in and discount a specific group based upon one aspect of identity with the objective to diminish them so that she can have her way. Hypocrite.

[@smellthecoffee5314]

Well put - I wish more people would see that for themselves.

[@silent_shout]

Is it hypocritical?- it’s kind of on brand for her side lol

[@HitTheBricks89]

OK Boomer :)

[@dewilew2137]

I’m pretty sure she just called attention to generational differences. If I said that my parents don’t understand slang, is that boxing in and discounting a specific group of people?

[@panhandlejake6200]

@@dewilew2137 Thanks for the comment - not an aspect that I had considered. Thinking about this point as a Boomer -- I have tried to understand SOME of the 'current 'identity terminology' and it remains confusing to me - it seems to keep changing while there are strong expectations that we MUST get it right in order to guarantee that we are being respectful. I do think that the vast majority of people try to be respectful to others regardless of orientation but are heavily criticized as homophobic if correct terminology isn't used. (Accusations against Jordan Peterson is a very public example.) I think it is this strong reaction to incorrect terminology that is contributing to wedges in our society. Of course there are those who have no intention to be respectful - but in my experience, their behavior usually is not limited to people with different orientation.

[@evieflannery4987]

“Only boomers are worried about identity politics.” Me, (a 14 year old): ..okay then.

[@babbling_b1239]

uɐʇɐs exactly, I heard her say that and as a millennial I laughed out loud literally. I can see she is very fond of her identity based on race, gender, and disability. She blames older people but I find people from their thirties down to my nine year old son who think identity politics are horrible- but alas we are white, Americans so maybe we should ask my nephews who are different skin colors, or my children’s friends- even though they are louder than us about how it is destroying schools, politics, and social life. There are laws already to protect each group from everything she says here in US. Oh and I’m considered disabled as well as my older son who has autism but he said she is full of crap. Here colleges and jobs have quotas they meet to let people in who meet these boxes which means the people who are best trained or best qualified will not be chosen but just who ticks the most identity boxes. Therefore dumbing down society, not putting the best in jobs, and forcing people into little groups that they didn’t chose to be in but are forced to be put into a place where they are only valued by that list of boxes ticked. The example of Dr. Ben Carson- neurological brain surgeon and works in government over the past few decades. Black male. If these things were such a hindrance then presidents, doctors, police chiefs, teachers, professors, etc would only be white straight males- that’s not the case. If it was such a hardship none of these people would be able to speak on it- that’s the proof if it was true no one on that stage would be able to be there if they were so victimized to this day. Maybe it’s different here in the US but here white kids are always last in line as far as who is allowed to speak. Or offered a job or place in school.

[@evieflannery4987]

Ashlee Babb Exactly, I hate how their definition of ‘equality’ is so twisted. Equality is a society where everyone is on the same level regardless of surface level matters such as race, gender or age and yet some people think that people of a certain race(or other ‘check box’) should be given a leg up. If we reversed the roles there would be a riot. (Sorry if I got anything wrong, I only have very limited knowledge on this subject because I never realised this type of thing happened until a couple months ago, I’m looking to know more though because this ‘identity politics’ is just wrong.)

[@evieflannery4987]

Revoltingsheeple of course it’s okay to help people as long as they aren’t being prioritised solely because of their race/religion etc..

[@evieflannery4987]

Revoltingsheeple the children should be helped but not because they are Christians, because they deserve a better quality of life no matter what their background is. As for taking away wealth: I don’t think that everyone should have to get their parents wealth taken away, if their parents/ancestors worked hard to get that money it shouldn’t be taken away, just have it be possible for anyone who wasn’t already born into wealth -no matter what is on their ‘checklist’- to work hard and make that money without prejudice or ‘favouritism’ towards people of a particular race, gender or religion. I hope I made sense, I’m not great at putting my thoughts into words all the time.

[@evieflannery4987]

people should earn their wealth but taking any away would be disrespectful to the families that worked hard to support their children.

Dawn opens her statement with an ageist remark.. Great way to start an intelligent debate.. Paint the other person as too old and therefore wrong.. Age covets experience and wisdom.

[@MrKaiRobinson]

Also beginning a rebuttal to the claim that identity is dividing people begins by putting someone down on the basis of their identity

[@sierralindsey6562]

I’m 22 years old, and I cannot think of a world I would want to live in less than a world plagued with identity politics.

[@Sparaxis11]

Lionel Shriver was only one able to stand back from the issue and take a look at issue without anger. Sadly life is not fair for any of us. We are all responsible for our own lives . We need to find a way within the vision we have for ourselves that is realistic. Our actions should not deviate from our goal and all discrimination reported to effect the change we need to see happen in a society that embraces all of our talents and abilities. There is no need for destruction of property to get this point across.

[@BubbleWrappedBear]

Exactly. There are many of us millennials who want nothing to do with identity politics.

[@904daniela]

If I could transport you back to the 80's or 90's, I would. It wasn't a perfect place, but it was a time of true rebellion, road trips, testing conventions. How do you identify meant - what kind of music are you into?

[@Kunfucious577]

Too late.

[@JohnDoe-nq8bo]

I guess there's not only "BOOMERS" on that side 😒 (I'm 31)

[@Kommiekiller]

Dawn doing the Ok boomer meme is literally the pot calling the kettle black

[@PHENN7]

Don't you mean African American?

[@Kommiekiller]

@@PHENN7 my bad, I meant kettle of color

[@kristopherloviska9042]

Substitute ANY other group (other than straight white males) using the same tone of voice she derided Boomers, and she would no longer have a job. And no, I am not a Boomer.

[@FreeSenpai]

I’m 32, and I fully endorse what Lionel said.

[@anestholiver]

Your a smart man

[@jonhelguson]

Same here. Aaaaaaaand I’M BLACK!

[@fkl770]

@@jonhelguson doesn't matter what race you are my friend we are all human. haha

[@johnhounslow-robinson9294]

Very un balanced.

[@jonhelguson]

@@fkl770 agreed, but being black in America unfortunately means you have been exposed to some powerful propaganda

[@stewstudboy]

I’m younger than dawn and I couldn’t disagree more with her and totally agree with Lionel. Also what an ironic ageist attitude she has to older people

[@N3CR0TlC]

Exactly.

[@williambare5295]

I know, right? I am glad that I am not the only one who could hear the visceral hatred for older people in her comments.

[@mrjekyllandhyde9941]

Dawn claims it's just the Boomers that are against identity politics gen x right here and quite rightly I think identity politics is massive problem. Also she suggest there's a small group that criticize it. I think she's got that back to front there's a small loud group that get people cancelled and obsessed by identity most people can't stand it. She even tried to claim that defenders of identity politics are not on line, dude that's laughable as Twitter might as well be their 2nd home.

[@allthatstitching]

She lost me at ‘Boomers.’

[@JET7C0]

Same: she couldn't be more wrong it's "mostly Boomers" - right there, with that, she made a great argument against her own thesis, but it was also anecdotal: not data, which shows the vast majority dislike identity politics, including those under 40 - yes, even on "the left." I'd be considered "Millenial" and I like Bernie Sanders, but not ID-politics and polling shows I'm not remotely alone. In fact, Lionel was right that the irony is the only group within which polling shows the majority embrace it is essentially wealthy, primarily white post-grads. It's convenient too, if you're a gay female, but born into an upper-middle class family, because you can distract wholly from your economic advantage, if you get everyone buying the idea the straight white-guy growing up in poverty with a single mother was and is fundamentally more "privileged" than you. It's an incredibly insulting and ironically absolutist worldview of stereotypes in that way.

[@agustinu]

Dawn’s argument: “older people are fearful and must get over it and the rest should just accept it”.

[@Texasjim2007]

I believe it was Mark Twain who pointed out that anyone who was a conservative when they were young didn't have a heart but anyone who was not conservative when they got old didn't have a brain. Young people have vastly less personal life history to use to judge the validity of what they're told by comparing what they're told is true with what they've seen with their own eyes to be true. That's why half the American population under 30 back in the Seventies was smoking dope and engaging in unsafe sex with multiple sex partners being covered up by abortions imagining that wouldn't lead to 30 million people dying of AIDS, massive drug overdoses, and DC going bankrupt because of Marion Berry blowing their tax money up his nose making gangs of drug dealers rich enough to overthrow governments. There has never been a generation in human history where those who survive to old age in it were not wiser than most people in younger generations due to idiots tending to die young from natural selection.

[@agustinu]

@@Texasjim2007 Agreed

[@davidlynn5362]

@@Texasjim2007 58K fighting-age Americans were randomly selected to go and die in SE Asia during the period you're talking about, I'm not sure how Darwinism applies. Not to mention that drug use and abortion falls much more on shitty government sex education and the government literally supplying drugs to its people to pay for black ops than the dumb kids who were used as test pawns.

[@RonnieD1970]

Dawns argument was blatantly, unapologetic, bigoted and hypocritcally AGE-IST

[@davmatheophilus159]

@@Texasjim2007 You think the following generation are wiser and more circumspect in their personal lives? I don't.

[@victoria7601]

Dawn, if you ever read this, I'm 26 and panicking over identity politics. Stop lumping people into groups to discredit them. It's impolite and discriminatory.

[@Tom-le3yy]

The thought that one can stop discrimination by discriminating is the very embodiment of folly.

[@MrBrachiatingApe]

"Let's crush the remnants of this nearly-dead fire by dumping gasoline all over it!" FWOOSH "Oh noes who could have foreseen that!?"

[@Texasjim2007]

Identity politics wasn't created to end discrimination but merely to change it from one group to another such as when previously favored groups caught on to how it was being used to manipulate them to do things not in their own self-interest.

[@dp2404]

@@Texasjim2007 it's: I want my turn in power

[@HitTheBricks89]

@@Texasjim2007 The revenge porn of societal fascism

[@mania4270]

@@Texasjim2007 that sounds like BS. What racist newspaper did you read that from?

[@72dew]

The left before: Don't label me. The left now: Acknowledge all of my labels and stick to yours!

[@72dew]

@@hanifahad803 Not sure if you're serious but I'll assume you are. You're the brainwashed one here Hani. You don't know a thing about me and you are able to make assumptions about me that I'm a Christian, conservative, fascist and white. All of which are false. I'm actually an Asian pantheist libertarian who chose to live in China. The telltale sign of someone possessed by ideology aka completely brainwashed is the instantaneous "us vs them" instinct kicking in when someone disagrees with you. Just because you disagree with me, you've instinctively assigned onto me all these labels that you'd characterized your ideological opponent.

[@hanifahad803]

@@72dew wow chinese guy , i must say you will be welcomed in countries with brand of politics which you support, the fact that YOUR people are getting the racist treatment for Coronavirus in western and other fascist ruled countries yet you support the ideology of conservatism fascinates me but then again you are used to obey respect THE RULER no matter what, your chinese premiere must be your GOD

[@prybarknives]

@@72dew serious question, the goof you responded to in this tread made the assertion that the "right" is against Asians, raising racism Against Asians, etc. In regards to Corona. Obviously this was months ago, but this narrative has persisted. Do you feel hate from the right? I am a conservative, I admire anyone who works hard and succeeds, which statistically Asians do (in the US, in relation to other groups, though I know there are many groups IN that group, and some don't do as well)... Anyway, long-winded as hell, I'm asking because I don't see it. I don't see any conservatives I know, railing against Asians or downing them in any way. The government of China? Yes, no love there... but I'm wondering what you see.

[@fuckamericanidiot]

All the evangelical leftists have is labels. They don't believe in objective truth, therefore they have no moral centre.

[@airsculler]

Its all bull crap. West Afrika was always rich & had slaves. There Muslim religion was beaten out!?! Since when West Africa was Muslim? Muhamad was from West Africa? Such a Liberal Bullcrap

[@that1chickinFL]

What a phenomenal waste of Lionel Shiver's intellect, charm, and above all, time.

[@aem870]

Racists or right-wingers act like identity politics is a new thing. They do not realise that their racism is identity politics. They think that identity politics is simply saying "black lives matter". Pulling down the statue of a slave trader is what they complain against.

[@that1chickinFL]

@@aem870 I think it's pretty reductive to say the only thing anti-identitarians have to complain about is statues. Identity politics is prioritizing and politicizing groups based on immutable characteristics. Rational people, right and left, realize that racism is identitarianism, regardless of what group is being targeted. Who, in this debate, do you consider a racist and/or right winger?

[@that1chickinFL]

@@aem870 oh, nevermind. I see you just went through the comment section spamming each thread with this nonsensical drivel and don't actually have a salient point to contribute. I'll save my energy.

[@prybarknives]

@@aem870 there it is!.the 9th repost of this crap, hoping to find the 10th!

[@looking-glass135]

@@aem870 yeah, I don’t think the racists and right wingers are against identity politics, as, which you pointed out, they themselves are only interested in lobbying for the needs and rights of the group or groups they are identified with and wish to represent. They’re anti BLM, and anti statue-topplers, sure, but these aren’t the people complaining about identity politics. It is people like me who would oppose both those on the left or the right who only wish to have the rights of their own group recognised and de-humanise “the other” - BLM are just as guilty of this as the white nationalists. There’s nothing “inclusive” about BLM, or the trans activists. They’re all divisive. All identity politics is divisive by its very definition!

[@jacques855]

Dawn using the group identity of 'boomers' to dismiss the opinions of a large portion of society is exactly the problem with identity politics. 'Boomers' are a large portion of functional individual members of society. This tactic is the same as saying Gen Z or Millenials' opinions don't matter because of their age/experience. Senseless and pointless generalisation which cancels out individual experience.

[@Poopulan]

I wish I saw this before I made my comment. This is exactly how a feel. She talks about equality and then casually dismisses and makes fun of Boomers over and over.

[@2eddietheeagle]

Totally agree, identity politics isn’t for equality, it’s for more power fir her white middle class arse

[@LittleVenator]

Dawn is so poorly spoken, it’s almost unbearable. Never mind the fact that I’m 25 years old (therefore not a boomer) and identity politics has done nothing good for me.

[@catherinewhitaker6226]

She can't even string a coherent sentence together

[@USMCplzzz]

It’s hard to articulate an argument that loses its logical consistency when it calls for over correcting racism to belittle white people today who aren’t racist

[@harrison777ify2]

AII American Chutzpah lol what, yes racism exists. The problem it’s completely lost meaning at this point and people will call anything racist

[@JohnSmith-hs1hn]

Yes it has. White identity politics makes it so that you are less likely to get stopped by police; more likely to get the job; you yourself swipe left on a brown, black, or asian man far more than a white man. You and your people are the progenitors of identity politics in this country. Don't cry now that black people are fighting back.

[@futilitarian3809]

Hi Paige. Is the question whether identity politics has done anything good for you? Or is it whether identity politics can do something good for all of us; for people who, because of aspects of their identity, experience prejudice, discrimination, stigma and/or other forms of oppression? Even if identity politics has done nothing for you yet, It's actually quite likely that one day it will. When we address the oppression experienced by others, we also reap benefits. These benefits include increased social cohesion, harmony, safety, productivity, creativity and educational attainment. Society as a whole grows stronger and brings everyone - including the most privileged - with it.

[@niansenx]

Lionel's elegant speech, followed by Dawn, was like having a starter of scallops gently fried in butter with lardons and crushed minted peas, followed by a main course of lard.

[@Kunfucious577]

Goddammit, thats so good.

[@flangecorp9789]

Agreed, great metaphor!

[@milo_thatch_incarnate]

Wow. Epic, epic metaphor. Bravo.

[@tinyguy9398]

Technically simile but otherwise agree it was great.

[@tommarsal3356]

Agreed

[@philc4661]

Group people into their immutable characteristics, then assess the level of attainment for each group, then blame the failure of certain groups on the success of others. WHO KNEW THAT IDENTITY POLITICS WOULD TEAR SOCIETY APPART!

[@seangawd6830]

More importantly, who didn't know?

[@plasmaplasmajohndoe5012]

@@seangawd6830 the ones that know and act like they don't are an old tribe now controlling much of world's wealth and behind the kalergi plan.. they get race realism but use tikkun olam on us blessing 2 all

[@plasmaplasmajohndoe5012]

@@seangawd6830 start with ...frankfurt... school

[@liamwinter4512]

They cant hear well in the echo chamber

[@aquilatempestate9527]

Politics is now ethnic because traitors balkanised the country by paying for third world colonists to settle in their millions. It's now gendered because subversives slowly destroyed the family and then told neuroticised young women they should compete with their menfolk. It's all just ethno-cultural genocide and radical social engineering playing out over decades. The war criminals and central banking mafia did not facilitate all this radical change for "diversity" and "equality". It's to break the nation down and install a new high-tech slave system. Isn't this stuff obvious by now?

[@theblackcat1978]

That was one of the most painful debates I have ever witnessed. Foster and Lammy seemed to be unprepared and determined to avoid debating the motion entirely.

[@DiamondLil]

I have noticed that people on the "pro-identity politics" side of these discussions never seem very well-prepared to defend their position except to say "People are mean!" That may be because they live in a bubble when everyone agrees with them and tells them they are correct about everything. To paraphrase John Stuart Mill: He who knows nothing about his opponent's position knows little of his own.

[@kenhiett5266]

Lionel Shrivers opening statement was one of the most powerful indictments of identity politics I've ever had the pleasure of digesting.

[@jackiewarnick-piatt8008]

She was brilliant

[@ericdecker2914]

Set some time aside for yourselves to read a little political history for one and stop listening to conservative pundits for two. For no reason she needs to name drop a woman who doesn’t believe in the validity of trans women and blames women for being assaulted by powerful men. Weird flex but okay.

[@kenhiett5266]

@@ericdecker2914 You should crack a history book open once in awhile and see what happens when the left goes too far. I'll give you the Cliff's Notes version: 100 million end up dead. Stop listening to leftist pundits, who sow racial division and traffic in propaganda.

[@Edge81]

She was evasive and brilliantly sidestepped questions by redirecting her answers so as to mislead her audiance.

[@kenhiett5266]

@@Edge81 You must be referring to Dawn Foster. Yes, I agree.

[@pagexx]

Dawn opening with "I'm a woman, white, disabled", followed by "women especially, black women are paid less at work", followed by the "being old, you just don't get young people", made me a little less hopeful she'll enlighten me as the debate moves forward.

[@nf6386]

… but she almost never thinks about identity, that’s just what “old people” say. Not being able to hear one’s own hypocrisy definitely counts as a disability!

[@silaslizzie43]

Interesting how she is all about protecting certain groups while also dissing older adults as not getting it. Maybe we get it and reject it.

[@tembamhangami3655]

She is rather apologetic and that affects her presentation.

[@tekboi1984]

@@silaslizzie43 thanks boomer

[@nf6386]

@@tembamhangami3655 with respect, I think you may be missing the nuance of her speech: the apologetic tone is passive aggression: by painting herself as a weak, oppressed victim, and any critics as foolish “old people” who really don’t understand, she’s trying to undermine the logical arguments of the other side without being able to present a coherent alternative argument.

[@DonPedroTheDude]

So much ad hominem from Dawn Foster. She clearly is clueless about how to put across an effective argument.

[@go2therock]

Not to be unkind, but she was rather rambling.

[@aem870]

Racists or right-wingers act like identity politics is a new thing. They do not realise that their racism is identity politics. They think that identity politics is simply saying "black lives matter". Pulling down the statue of a slave trader is what they complain against.

[@prybarknives]

@@aem870 8th reposting of this inept response, amazing.

[@enosger]

She got to you huh!

[@jimbwoy55]

@@prybarknives are you going to explain why it's inept please?

[@paulwilliamson6555]

Lionel the ONLY coherent voice on the panel! Was this supposed to be a fair debate? 3 against 1?

[@pineapplegirl8078]

“I don’t have a tick box” “I do have a tick box” “I’m a female” I’m disabled” “I’m white” “You’re a Boomer” There, now you can skip through Dawn’s first speech and save yourself a headache.

[@williamgibson6429]

I wish I read you comment before I got the head ache LOL R.O.T.F.

[@davmatheophilus159]

She was flailing. 😳🥴

[@Rosebud100]

Too late - I have a headache!

[@GS-dz5kr]

I started getting a headache and I came looking for your comment for the cure.

[@kay-uw5lt]

Thank God I checked the comments before watching.

[@dewiowen3010]

Three against one.

[@Seanocearbhaill]

And they didn't stand a chance

[@michaelknight2897]

Agreed

[@jley1823]

She showed her intellectual cowardice @1:12:00 when she refused to acknowledge that different human groups are different, with different potentialities. Trevor Phillips got closer than Shriver to stating the obvious.

[@pistolen87]

Trevor made some good arguments against identity politics IMO. Trump, Bolsonaro, Erdogan, Duterte, Orban, Modi, Farange are the flip side of the identity politics coin. Identity politics and populism goes hand in hand, no matter if it's on the right or left.

[@michaelknight2897]

@@pistolen87 they are good arguments if your a globalist and think populism is bad. As for populism being the flip side, in disagree. We have had populist waves in the past and they were not a reaction to identify politics. I think identity politics is the religion of rich liberals who are also globalist. It's easy to be a globalist when you loathe your own country, culture, ethnicity, etc.

[@Alex-dj3yq]

Dawn Foster's 'ok boomer' was the weakest, no-laughs joke ever to grace a stage. Painful to see. Also, she's not a very good public speaker. Lionel Shriver was amazing.

[@mikespeers8281]

Boony Tooty I think I agree, but I'd prefer to call it intellectually challenged, or of course overwhelmed by the gig - like - erm - if you know what I mean - like.................erm!!!

[@SeanMichaelUpton]

She looks inbred

[@joefarang]

Dawn Foster was the weakest, no-laughs debater in this group - she is dreadful. muddled, poorly structured, points made lacking any supporting facts, totally unconvincing.

[@michaelohwtf]

It's rare to find people on a similar side of the argument being able to articulate themselves without confidence or emotional interference.

[@aem870]

Racists or right-wingers act like identity politics is a new thing. They do not realise that their racism is identity politics. They think that identity politics is simply saying "black lives matter". Pulling down the statue of a slave trader is what they complain against.

[@shantanukhandkar]

When she said "I have many white male friends", I immediately imagined what her reaction would be if someone she was trying to cancel for being racist had said "I have many black friends". Funny how that works.

[@jvincent6548]

I think had that connection in mind deliberately when she penned the line in her speech. I think she was serving notice..almost a challenge to the weak, woke wets to attempt to cancel her.

[@johncarpenter4083]

No, you missed the irony of her statement. Most of her male friends are white. She parodied the white statement: "I have some black friends."

[@dpcisunbreakable]

You clearly missed the point. You seem mad because you probably got called out for being racist yourself.

[@elizabethbennet4791]

@@dpcisunbreakable ugh

[@dpcisunbreakable]

@@elizabethbennet4791 What's the problem?

[@HebrewsElevenTwentyFive]

To make this clear: Lammy doesn't talk for all us blacks 👀✌🏾

[@briantrend1812]

lammy is a racist OVERPAID dodgy subversive parasite who plays to a certain lefty audience. To every Normal intelligent person we can see him coming from a mile away. he needs to be swatted like a commie bug

[@briantrend1812]

NORMAL PEOPLE being called popularists what a laugh. lammy wishes he was popular but that's why hes a loser cause he aint popular, because all he has to offer is the racecard bullshit. what a SUBVERSIVE slimy scumbag

[@SG-hf8pj]

Just the majority of us. ✌😜 Also note: Do we call ourselves "blacks" now?

[@nealorr5086]

He's full of shit, but he was clearly the best orator of group.

[@iamthepiemaster]

I doubt anyone believes he does. The only people who believe that anyone speaks on behalf of any race, or that any race is anything other than a bunch of completely different people who just share a characteristic, are people like David Lammy :)

[@nathansutherland6913]

So essentially there's one person arguing for sanity and three other arguing people should be judged by immutable traits. great job. Very balanced.

[@rizzd5820]

There could have been 20 of them against Lionel and they still wouldn't have stood a chance. The smartest person subscribing to their ideology couldn't hold a candle to Lionel. She should have just left after her opening statement. It was a mic drop moment.

[@reinoud6377]

Couldnt have said it better

[@user826]

Caught that to.

[@scott2452]

Thank you Lionel Shriver; a brilliantly articulated argument.

[@adamz9835]

I generally agree but the version of identity politics she was arguing against was definitely not a steel-man.

[@pablowall]

she was a pig among guinea pigs honestly, a clear cut above in quality of argument delivered. And if someone disagree with it, it's because they're a sexist bigot and cannot see a woman beat a man in an argument! just kidding i'm not retarded. edit (second sentence is the joke, first sentence is sincere)

[@shawnh3463]

Why are blacks on stage over represented

[@maryamkim1281]

She's a bit crap actually. And unattractive.

[@tiez7658]

It was 3 against 1...!?

[@elijahbachrach6579]

The moderator says “thank you Lionel. Not too insidious, there.” They give her a co-panelists who is ultimately against her on identity politics. And the only question they ask twice was asked so that someone could contradict Lionel. I find this gross.

[@dementare]

This was 1 v 3 in my view too.

[@9tailjeza]

@@dementare trevor’s point seemed to be - identity politics is tearing society apart, as it should and not enough!

[@tristanmaze9670]

That panel was loaded Lionel was the only one that actually was against identity politics. What a load of BS that was.

[@silverbullet2008bb]

Indeed the panel was loaded and whoever set it up must have known that in advance because what else can you expect from a black Labour MP, a Guardian columnist and the boss of the Equalities Commission.

[@user-jx2ei1kh4q]

Spot on mate.. my fella said they're all plants apart from the American lady

[@billsimms2511]

They should have had Douglas Murray on her side 👍🏾

[@nozza4742]

Gotta love how at 57 minutes in, David Lammy, a millionaire who went to Harvard, attacks the other guy for being rich and having an Ivy League education.

[@jrrrrr5662]

Yeah, that was extraordinary - effectively: nothing at present (that is inconvenient for me) matters for as long as my ancestors were oppressed in the past

[@gg_rider]

Trevor Phillips mentions that his ancestors were Muslims, and Islam was beaten out of them. How did Africans come to adopt Islam? I think we know. Slavery is terrible, as well as the overt discrimination and forced inequality that followed. At the time, European explorers and conquerors, acting under the Crown, saw the opportunity in purchasing African slaves from Islamic warlords and from African kings. I don't mean for this to "sound racist" just because some actual White Supremacists also make this point. I may consider deleting this later if some useful discussion convinces me.

[@SvendleBerries]

@@gg_rider - *"I don't mean for this to "sound racist" just because some actual White Supremacists also make this point."* It is true though, regardless of who uses it as an argument. The fact of the matter is, white Europeans didnt just go to Africa and steal black people. They bought them. From other black people. Thats just a fact. A fact that is inconvenient when race ideologues rely on the "only white people can be evil" argument to get their point across. Because if everybody played an equal part in slavery (which they did, and many in Africa and the middle east still do to this day), then pointing fingers solely at white people makes *them* the racists. And thats not a good look, especially when their entire careers are based on it.

[@ninorc]

What makes you think that Lammy is a, 'millionaire'?

[@RevoltingPeasant123]

Russell Cronin from 20 years as a politician, many of which as a front bencher earning probably around £80,000-£100,000 per annum with generous expense accounts. On top of that the 4 published books. That’d be my guess

[@ikr2377]

Lionel is like the sort of teacher everyone wants to have.

[@qpc1263]

Lionel was too intelligent to be on this panel

[@dontpanic1812]

Did you ever nail that. You've brought to mind my eighth-grade World Regions teacher, Ms. Minor-Major (seriously, that was her name) and my tenth-grade Chemistry teacher, Mrs. Watson (have never met a bad Watson since)-- no nonsense, demanding, devoted, honest and ticked. Rarely could ever make either smile and when you did, your world opened up and you knew you'd done something rather special and smart. They're both gone now. Ms. Minor-Major was a DOD educator, transitioned us from pencils to pens, Mrs. Watson, a public school teacher, imparted to us the importance of "labels, labels, labels" in conversion factors. Both were walnuts, hard as nails.

[@theponderingwarrior7839]

Lionel Shriver: "My skin colour is a accident. Not a personal brand." Dawn: "BOOMERS"

[@astralwyrm3787]

Dawn: "Identity politics isn't just about identities fighting it out for power." Also Dawn: "Don't listen to those OLD people its the time for the YOUNG now."

[@EthanWebman]

It was a bit painful watching the lady in red. Especially because Lionel’s speech was was so fantastic

[@lisamontez9401]

Some women make me feel embarrassed to be one.

[@RastaganTheGreen]

@@lisamontez9401 dont ever say that, anymore than I should apologize for being a white male. You dont share responsibility for their stupidity, you only speak for yourself :)

[@jesuschristsonofgod9709]

@@RastaganTheGreen yeah but she makes women look retarded, unfortunately

[@RastaganTheGreen]

@@jesuschristsonofgod9709 so? Do you have to apologize for every idiot man who makes us look retarded?

[@mjq21xb]

Listening to her talk had me thinging "what you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

[@br0mouzone]

David Lammy conducted himself like a real charlatan here. Casuistry of the highest order.

[@Stolat79]

Sowing fear and anger with every chance he has to speak, but resulting in saying very little of import.

[@eug3nius]

They're both charlatans.

[@krystalccameron7689]

You taught me a new word! Casuistry! Perfectly used to describe this...David. 😹

[@vajrayogini37]

Indeed he truly is a sophist and a Marxist apologist.

[@elainesabatino7467]

@@vajrayogini37 "They Have To Go Back". -His Excellency The Dalai Lama kzbin.info/www/bejne/g3i5qKyYpa2irqs

[@garrettjohnson7546]

The Guardian writer's opening speech is pure obfuscation.

[@TheDanielLivingston]

She’s so disinterested in the whole damn thing that she starts texting at 1:27:09

[@milton7763]

In what way?

[@nealorr5086]

@@milton7763 The thrust of her argument is that complaints about identity politics are from (white) boomers, and their opinions don't count.

[@peterfetcher9960]

@@TheDanielLivingston Yes, that was cringeworthy!

[@jimmerskrimmerfriddet3246]

@@TheDanielLivingston haha I noticed that too. I would guess she was mindlessly scrolling through her boomery facebook feed

[@deryk2002au]

Lionel was the only speaker that made sense, the 3 others regurgitated MSM talking points. Not a balanced selection of speakers

[@scottferguson4372]

So three super Narcissists against one normal person ....seems fair.....

[@GibSonLoGic]

One normal person can go against a thousand super narcissists and still come out on top! 😏

[@Grobut81]

Yeah that's why i'm stopping this video after hearing the 4 opening arguments. How is this a reasonable debate when it's a 3 against 1 wankfest? There is no bloody way i'm sitting through more empty lies from these 3 insufferable bigots just to hear from the 1 reasonable person on the panel.

[@michaelohwtf]

I had high hopes after hearing the first speaker. What utter rubbish followed her, why can't they find anyone with the same ability (as the first individual) to articulate their point of view with some intelligence.

[@fuckamericanidiot]

Narcissism is all they have, leave them alone

[@ChuckChuckWood]

Never heard of Dawn Foster before, and without bias on the actual topic I have to say she seemed exceptionally unprepared here - really this a very disappointing defence, repetitive, irrelevant points which were badly delivered SMH

[@hazelstops]

Yes, that’s how they argue and play the game on racism and identity politics ... no research... no deeper knowledge... no intellectual and scientific explanations of what are they debating about... it’s just generalization and and they alway inject the victimhood syndrome.

[@tendayijay7186]

It was a very anecdotal opening statement.

[@iamisaid2295]

how is she qualified to be on that stage?? without using identity points? EXACTLY

[@MountainRhode]

Lionel Shriver's opening statement was superb. Precise, articulate entirely rational and suffused with a humanistic plea to the better angels of our nature

[@pleaseexcusemeimavirgo7126]

nah.. cant trust that. history proves there are no better angels of our nature.

[@mihaimoldo]

@@pleaseexcusemeimavirgo7126 Yes there are. And OP made a reference to Steven Pinker's book with the same name. The better angels of our nature are each person that strives to make the world a better place. You and me. That vote for equality and prevent crime and discrimination.

[@TripleBarrel06]

@@pleaseexcusemeimavirgo7126 if you really think that you should get better friends and better yourself.

[@stabbybear3293]

@@pleaseexcusemeimavirgo7126 We hear about heroic acts and random acts of kindness and compassion all the time. Where do you suppose they come from?

[@sarahthomas2922]

Suffused??? Well that's a new word I've learned today. 😅

[@karenmkrtumyan6902]

Okay, Dawn's speech was horrible, but all the obvious things aside: she says "all the people that you see complaining are older, who have wealth, so they're not being silenced" etc. maybe that's because all younger people that don't have that kind of influence are actually being silenced? :D

[@pseudonayme7717]

No, anyone who disagrees with them is silenced. They are equal opportunities bigots😄

[@shawntalbert]

Having a solid definition of what identity politics should have been established before this debate started.

[@jeanpull1]

When the young Turkish lad asked about Muslim identity being used to win elections, your point seemed especially poignant. A lot of the questions had nothing to do with the topic.

[@watchman4todayreloaded192]

There are different ideas. Some still think it isw about trying to bring equality whereas it is now supposedly about equity but really about deliberately causing division.

[@Hauerization]

Well thats the crux right there isnt it; EVERYONE have their own idea what the hell the bloody thing means.

[@gessie]

A well-defined phenomenon which is ludicrously visible in our society may not require a prior definition.

[@iamphineas]

Woke SJW team: loses debate Host: “everyone’s a winner!” SJW team: *grins, applaudes* Classic.

[@guyfromdubai]

Technically while the agree team won by number of people agreeing with their position, the general rule in this format is that the debaters that affect the most sway of opinion are the winners.

[@laraking804]

SonofaGib that’s like a silver medalist claiming they ran with better style. Yeah, no. Just like with any votes you either win or lose.

[@williammcarthur1966]

​@300bpm That is literally the premise that these debates are held on.. @sonofagib described it perfectly..

[@williammcarthur1966]

@@laraking804 ​ That is literally the premise that these debates are held on.. @sonofagib described it perfectly..

[@williammcarthur1966]

@300bpm ​ That is literally the premise that these debates are held on.. @sonofagib described it perfectly..

[@johnbattersby8639]

So David thinks silencing voices at Universities is OK because his ancestors were silenced. Just spectacular logic. Surely this skin deep reasoning isn't taken seriously. Besides Lionel Shriver this is just a London bubble conversation.

[@jaycartell254]

They dont want Equality, they just want Power.

[@aem870]

Racists or right-wingers act like identity politics is a new thing. They do not realise that their racism is identity politics. They think that identity politics is simply saying "black lives matter". Pulling down the statue of a slave trader is what they complain against.

[@dannymaloney8275]

@@aem870 you lack brain cells

[@truthseeker7192]

@@aem870 You people act like only white people can be racist.

[@prybarknives]

@@aem870 you think this response so eloquent, it needs cut/pasted up multiple times, eh?

[@BLiTzRanT]

Listening to Lionel gave me hope. These other speakers are living in an alternate reality. "We are in a white man's Era, a Trump Era". I wonder if he's aware the US had a black president in power for 8 years. Ah yes,, be sure to not mention this .

[@starj5114]

1 black man out of 46 presidents after over 400years of labour on that land means what ? & to who?

[@camtheman3x6]

Lionel Shriver wow! I've never heard of this woman but my gosh was she good here.

[@rizzd5820]

Yeah, I'm looking for her books now. Absolutely brilliant.

[@robyn2628]

lionel is ALWAYS brilliant

[@evad7933]

Her novel 'We Need to Talk About Kevin' was superb. I discovered it when i researched her on the back of watching her being interviewed on youtube.

[@ChrisPbiker]

So glad to have heard Dawn, she perfectly represents the identity politics case; there isn't one!

[@i8allthepies2]

Freedom of speech at work

[@this-is-bioman]

She didn't name any particular issues. She spoke only about "certain" things. Why? Because she's got no idea what she talks about.

[@GlowingAsteroid]

😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@revolucionarioe2123]

@@this-is-bioman yeah🤣🤣

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@@this-is-bioman Forgive the original inhabitants of Britain for having a leg up on people that migrated there within the last 50 years.

[@allysonyoung2771]

That 2nd Guardian speaker immediately put people into boxes - the victim millenials vs the babyboomers. ,!!

[@googletaqiyya184]

the victim millenials vs -the babyboomers- Gen X.

[@andymac345]

Fat and ugly, that's not a judgement just an observation.

[@jon123xyz]

And she works for a Marxist paper - I am not referring to the Guardian. Now there is a political philosophy with a track record of bringing people together and overall decency.

[@nexx410]

Well all speakers accept Lionel have been very incoherent. I can't really tell what they're arguing at some points.

[@megancox9068]

Lionel was good, i liked her opening statement the most.

[@cosmicwakes6443]

Megan Cox No, she wasn't. Just grievances of a persecution complex. Her utterances are mere talking points of white victimhood. And she has that speech impediment.

[@chinogambino9375]

@@cosmicwakes6443 She was attacked by dishonest vicious poeple, its not a 'white' complaint you hopeless racist.

[@thenrepeat9124]

Agreed. The Left in USA are the most notorious whiners in human history and empathy for them is turning to resistance.

[@cosmicwakes6443]

@@chinogambino9375 She was given a platform to air her racial poison.

[@lanagordon5669]

Cosmic Wakes and you are using the platform you’ve been given, ie this one, to air your racial poison.

[@tick999]

Don't ever stop talking about race or David won't get a salary

[@tick999]

@James Registe I can speak 3 languages, girlfriend is brown, volunteer for a Muslim charity (helping refugee children with homework) dispite being threatened by Muslims in my local area several times. I would like to see a ban of the kqoran though, and its supplementary books as its against gays, women and apostasy and non believers

[@SG-hf8pj]

@@tick999 None of that means you aren't a racist. There have been plenty of educated racist who fetishized black and brown women. I am not saying you are but imo qualifying racism in that way shows a misunderstanding in the concept people are getting at. The automatic assumptions that are drawn often come from a history of unequal power being given to ideas. I believe the goal is to be more expansive in our information and hopefully our views of each other. Lastly I disagree with your views on the Quran. Like most other holy books I do think it is often misused but I don't think it is against anyone specifically as much as it is weaponized and twisted/decontextualized.

[@SG-hf8pj]

@Bookoo Movement "Stay off the crack" considering that crack isn't the current epidemic sweeping the nation I have a few questions that I'll let slide. . 🤣😂 You literally came and made no point. It seems you felt any attempt to clarify the meaning of 'racism' was futile..... Kinda hard to grasp.

[@elainesabatino7467]

@300bpm Didn't you get the memo? Only WyPipo Can Be Wacists, in the Land of the Woke Antiwhites.

[@jermaineedwards8384]

@@tick999 you say you do these things which you could be making up and people that have to say all that as some proof that they ain't racist then usually they are your first comment was clearly racially charged what because you work around Muslims you can't be racist.

[@fevvral]

I cannot for the love of god follow what dawn is talking about, her word choice is so vague LOL

[@DonnaBrooks]

Your comment legit made me LOL!

[@brightonunderground4289]

She's a Guardian writer. It comes with the territory.

[@gillianzohnert2323]

Thanks for your comment. I couldn't follow her logic. Very choppy, not flowing or articulated like Lionel 's.

[@saintnef7269]

Her lisp makes it worse

[@Stadsjaap]

That's because the points she tried to make are so vague.

[@steviechat]

If Dawn Foster and David Lammy are the best the, 'against argument' can come up with, speaks volumes for the weakness of their position.

[@iamanomas]

Except for Lionel, this is a weak panel.

[@thenaturebro]

extremly weak.

[@jeffreylynn3525]

Lionel Shriver nailed it when she stated the debate went off the rails. I was looking for a debate on one issue but it delved into other social issues.

[@corpgov]

life is complex. Did Lionel want to put the debate into box but not like identity politics? :D

[@emilmirchev6893]

@@corpgov Yet, there is a topic. The debate wasn't about general life or philosophy but about identity politics. Hence, identity politics should be discussed. Otherwise, it is just gymnastics for the tongue.

[@MrBrachiatingApe]

That's what the Left-ish side in many of these debates seems to do. They sprawl and gobble about for any scrap of victim-cred to win the debate (in their minds) by the assertion of this anti-ethos. But then, it's rare to find somebody standing up for these slyly evil positions who is capable of doing so honestly and willing to try and risk losing when they can play to their base, ignore the logic, and twist the evidence, and pretend they weren't BTFO'D.

[@ukbloke28]

That's because these people are incapable of viewing society from a broader perspective, they can only think and talk about themselves - the group is just a smokescreen to cover up their narcissism.

[@AMikeStein]

I thought the same thing, the two for the motion were pretty damn on point with their subject and topics they wished to bring up. Dawn, where as I don't doubt her sincerity if her care for the topic, didn't do very well at all. And the last speaker against the motion, (I apologize. the identity politic debate isn't what I typically research or read about or listen to, so the names of the people on stage are beyond my memory) started strong and then kind of flailed around and changed topic near the end. the topic was Identity politics are tearing society apart, not how are other things tearing society apart. I liked him but he lost me as a debate opponent.

[@theenlightenedbarbarian1611]

I love how Dawn Foster steps up and immediately proves Lionel Shriver to be absolutely correct by instantly dividing people up into marginalized identity groups without any contextual analysis.

[@robinfox4440]

From the opening statement, the Fors had it. Those Against just proved their point by going through all the typical motions of Identity Politics. I can relate so hard with this. I was destroyed and proverbially run out of town in one job I had, because the people I worked with found out I wasn't exactly all for Identity Politics. It is toxic, adversarial, reductive and vicious worldview, that actively looks for fights and problems and even creates them when it doesn't find any.

[@lonzo61]

I only just finished watching Shriver make her brilliant points, and am only a minute into the pasty, chubby white woman's rant (I have already, mercifully, forgotten her name), and I can unsurprisingly see where this thing is going. I predict that Shriver and Phillips will wipe the floor with the WOKE opposition.

[@averayugen7802]

your identity wasn't identical to theirs😄

[@64kimmyjo]

This unfortunately is my work place too. Nothing but trainings on DEI and CRT. Doubling down on the identity politics BS

[@jingyen00]

Dawn Foster: "people who are upset about identity politics are boomers" ...way to alienate your audience.

[@jdhill4]

The level of disrespect for the boomer generation is unconscionable. I'm a millennial and when I see some stupid kid use that phrase as an insult I want to smack them.

[@ryanboshell6124]

@@jdhill4 me too.

[@JH-ci7gu]

Dawn Foster's arguments were pretty vapid. True to form of a Guardian columnist

[@raulzaha3096]

I found saying "ok zoomer" back to them pisses them off way more than boomers. It's quite funny xD

[@hjbau1350]

Her argument was pretty much, only old people think this way, and old people should be dismissed.

[@genelovesgreen]

It's painful, not to mention ironic, after Shriver's speech - insightful, nuanced, sparkling with wit and individuality - to see Dawn Foster gracelessly expose both the meagreness of her intellect and her inability to define herself as anything other than a white woman with a disability.

[@realebogakgobokoe468]

Yup. Well said.

[@Ahmedali323]

you probably missed the part where she was talking about policy expansion. Which speaks more to your intellect than hers.

[@korokshiding]

Succinct comment, hitting the nail right on the head!

[@Jide-bq9yf]

Of course Shriver makes the case for a unique human identity as the ideal and the other lady’s argument is noteworthy in its lack of lustre , verve and coherence . But we throw the baby out with the bath water at our peril when that impels you to have me believe in a brave new world of unbiased opportunity and merit that I can’t yet see , taste and feel .

[@jamesdarcy4945]

shriver's speech was doctrinaire nonsense.

[@crieverytim]

Wow, Shivers is savage. Way to end this whole debate, that they've completely wasted her time

[@Reallytallsocks]

Right? That hit me pretty hard. She was so disappointed that it devolved so fast and so far away from what it was supposed to be that she would have probably rather watched paint dry. Savage.

[@nf6386]

Someone had to say it, I’m glad she didn’t hold back. Even the guy who was supposed to be on her side didn’t seem to know whether he was coming or going.

[@fsrsaa]

If she wasn’t married I would be Crushing. Her mind is astounding. What a waste of her time.

[@CapsuleClub-fz6gu]

@@fsrsaa Now SHE is a woman! I'm crushing on her myself.

[@nannanz2097]

Loved her Grauniard writing back in the day, still sharp as a tack 👍

[@zacharycaruso2935]

My goodness, what an exceedingly underwhelming discussion, especially considering the promise it had at the beginning with Lionel's fantastic opening statement, and frankly, Dawn had absolutely no business being there with anyone else here.

[@aerialpunk]

Anyone else love how that 12-year-old kid in the audience has more coherent thoughts on identity politics than some of the panel members?

[@dontpanic1812]

That kid from Turkey was great.

[@rabiulchowdhury2170]

That kid was smarter than 75% of the panel.

[@madarawijerathne276]

Yeah he's way smarter

[@tobymaltby6036]

Gen Z... make me feel that there *is* hope.

[@Here0s0Johnny]

This!

[@joaopedroafonso]

well, that was a waste of time

[@Papperogrande]

What a legend Lionel Shriver is! in my opinion she spoke the most logic in this debate. Nice sign out too. You have a new fan :)

[@trevsinclair]

"Dawn, your chance now to argue against the motion." *Dawn:* Oh no, I'm going to make an unintelligible, constant repeating fool of myself............."So.....I have a disability............"

[@ukbloke28]

Her disability is that she is an ignorant bigot.

[@aerialpunk]

"I have a disability and I'm a woman, and so I like identity politics, and if you don't, it's probably cos you're a white boomer". Just ridiculous. And since she loves identity politics so much - I'm a chronically ill younger woman on a disability pension and I still think what she was saying was ridiculous.

[@cinemar]

I guess iQ Squared got sick of Douglas Murray owning the discussion.

[@creativegaze]

Not likely. They probably got sick of listening to his unending whinging drivel.

[@allahspreadshate6486]

@@creativegaze - It's not much fun being thoroughly beaten every time you play is it?

[@Elbownian]

@@allahspreadshate6486 every single time...

[@nealorr5086]

@@allahspreadshate6486 In on of Dr. Peterson's presentation he talks about rats at play, and how if the larger rat doesn't let the smaller rat win at wrestling like 30% of the time, the small rat is no longer interested in play. Basically the same principle at work here.

[@koolkev2020able]

@@creativegaze Anyone who would describe Douglas Murray's speech or writings as, "unending whinging drivel" Would have to be emotionally driven. Such a person could be properly be described as having limited intelligence. 😏

[@greenetolstoy]

could have fallen asleep during Lammy's soporific effort, and Dawn Frasers' rambling. Agree that Lionel was the best speaker with the sharpest message by a clear margin

[@Jide-bq9yf]

Shriver was brilliant and layered but all she had to be was a black woman of the same generation to immediately find herself espousing a completely different narrative . Not necessarily opposing the motion but just with enough attention paid to race to convince us identity is still of import in our world .

[@scafarliecraniu8261]

its gender is stupid...Trump 2024!

[@NicBob89]

“I don’t think about other people in that way” - proceeds to make a pejorative statement about a group of people “boomers” after the older white women speaks so that she can be painted in a bad light. 😂 Totally logical and equal

[@kingfillins4117]

David Lammy needs to take responsibility for the monsters he has helped create. Using those monsters to suggest his position is well reasoned is the very pinnacle of hypocrisy. To then use MLK to support his promotion of identity politics takes him over the edge into an alternate reality. On Trevor's comment about women not having a voice.. Women did have a voice. As men did through the voices of kings/Queens and parliaments and through petition.. Look up the Women's Coffee Petition on the 16/1700's. 30,000 odd signatures promoting the historical innate rights of women. Also the killings of young black men across the USA is predominantly by other young black men not the Police. Its not just on campuses that ID Politics is negatively influencing society. The Police are visiting people over tweets and comments made to "Check their thinking", to check a persons thinking. Lammy thinks its ok to allow discrimination if the discrimination of others is put center stage. More hypocrisy. No Lammy you are absolutely not English as you can never be becuase you are not ethnically English. You can only ever be British. Brit - Ish. The same as if you were a Japanese Citizen. You would, no matter how hard you tried, ever be Japanese. Lammy thinks that he challenging structural oppression. Please explain why the most disadvantaged in the UK are poor white boys and why some of the most advantaged are POC.

[@johnjoe1934]

Excellent points. David Lammy is the real racist.

[@michaelknight2897]

@Stirgid Lanathiel Then the same is said for African, indian, etc. Therefore, we can dispense with it, after all, it has no meaning.

[@michaelknight2897]

​@Stirgid Lanathiel Nigerian isn't Nigerian. More likely a Nigerian is from a particular tribe that spans across state boundaries, or a combination of a couple tribes from the area. Nigeria, the nation state, is relative new. My point is, when it suits them, the left is all about race/ethnicity. When its "white" people, well, then they don't really have a culture or race. In the end, the left is quite racist and bigoted. Al native tribes are the same, they are basically hippies, All blacks are just African, etc

[@Judipops13]

​@Stirgid Lanathiel Wrong - English IS an ethnicity and we are an ethnic group as are the Welsh, the Scottish & the Irish!! We are recognised by the Government of the UK. How dare you delete my ethnicity. "The English people are a nation and an ethnic group native to England who speak the English language. The English identity is of early medieval origin, when they were known in Old English as the Angelcynn ('family of the Angles')". www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/ethnic-groups

[@Judipops13]

@Stirgid Lanathiel Absolute nonsense. The child's ethnicity will be Vietnamese and citizenship British. This is well understood within the UK and elsewhere. So what do you think the difference is between British and English?

[@liamwinter4512]

Half this pannel live in self imposed intellectual ignorance.

[@CrunchyNorbert]

We like to pretend that's what's happening here but you have an inkling its not

[@afifahhamilton8843]

Three quarters actually.

[@tl4340]

To call Dawn's speech narcissistic and incoherent is a grotesque understatement. And David just always ends up screaming and blaming people like he is giving a campaign speech. The both of them were very poor choices for the debate.

[@ミア-f9b]

22 and I totally agree with Lionel. I’m part of a minority group myself (Latina) but nothing annoys me more than the kind of mentality some of these people have. Why does the color of my skin matter. If someone asks me who I am, and I remove my race and my sexuality, what am I left with? That’s what matters.

[@HereTakeAFlower]

Maybe they are insisting so much on identity because they don't want people with actually similar opinions from different races to talk with each other and find an agreement for peaceful coexistence and reciprocate growth. Sorry for bad English I'm Italian.

[@keithdavidson9102]

Very well said 👏

[@anonymoid388]

@@HereTakeAFlower Great English and great point :D

[@mania4270]

@@HereTakeAFlower I dont see whats wrong in having appreciation for your own culture.

[@HereTakeAFlower]

@@mania4270 Nothing? It's the act of gatekeeping your culture that's perverse.

[@UniverseOfAtoms]

3 vs 1 -- what a disgrace. shows that they never intended for this to be a debate on the premise.

[@seekerout]

To be fair, they probably had no idea Trevor Phillips would go and argue against the motion. He went right down in my estimation with that bit of treachery.

[@UniverseOfAtoms]

@@seekerout - Fair enough. That's certainly possible.

[@harrysoper7173]

they still lost tho lol

[@seekerout]

@@harrysoper7173 Yes, but the worrying thing is 'they' (i.e. Lionel alone) only persuaded 5% of the don't knows whereas the other three managed to sway the opinion of 18% of them.

[@corpgov]

@@seekerout treachery for actually having a more nuanced position that Shriver?

[@SereneBobcat]

Dawn Foster's opening statement felt like she was speaking for an hour and said nothing.

[@maryamkim1281]

Bot

[@SereneBobcat]

@@maryamkim1281 That's a bingo!!

[@johnblaker2454]

@@SereneBobcat She really didn't say anything. Her entire thing was a rambling disjointed "some things do some things to some people" but never any specifics. I'm sorry, but on a purely crafting an argument level she wouldn't have got a passing grade as an undergrad from any professor worth their salt. I kinda feel bad for her side of the argument and for her employer, she didn't represent her ideas very well. I'd rather have had someone other than her as their other speaker just so that I could actually hear a good, well crafted argument (I assume there is one out there, but she didn't give it). I haven't read her writings, maybe she's better in that format.

[@krys8494]

Miles Dyson cuz u didnt like what she said lol

[@seekerout]

It was so bad I was cringeing. Can she really be a journalist? I've never read her stuff, but she seems unable to craft a coherent argument.

[@davidlillecrapp2960]

Lionel grabbed the thoughts inside of my head and expressed them perfectly. That was a knockout punch! LOVED IT!!

[@Clickie13]

Then she voted for Biden a few months later

[@desydukuk291]

Dawn is a yawn.

[@desydukuk291]

@ghasan23 Because she's predictable and very boring.

[@briantrend1812]

dawn the red yawn

[@sandraflanagan1167]

Poor Lionel Shriver having to share a panel with this lot.All got chips on their shoulders.

[@Kunfucious577]

That dude in the beginning is blaming society for his low self esteem. He changed his name to feel like he fit in and so everyone else mustve too. What a loser.

[@DarkPigeon21]

Thank you, Dawn. You made it clear to me which side was making the most intelligent argument.

[@monkeytime9851]

Identity politics is politically correct prejudice.

[@calelsuper2725]

Its also the strategy of most marxists to tear down a sosciety and create cultural revolution. The black guy on the left let that slip himself " tear it all down and start again " . But hes for globalisation. Still marxist or Maoist strategy

[@JMT1985MO]

Yeah you're right. Like here when Donald Trump played identity politics, disgusting

[@andreware6492]

Lionel is spot on! The second lady dawn just rambled- I could barely make out what she said.

[@Spenceramaa]

“The other day I was having a conversation with my friend...” I was dying

[@gipgap4]

Basically, 50+ year old home owners are evil and should be cancelled.

[@Badenhoff]

That's because she didn't say a right lot. Apart from mentioning she had spoke to friends, which is nice.

[@milton7763]

“I don’t like to put people into small boxes”,..., “boomer, boomer, boomer” I guess she prefers big boxes

[@milton7763]

AII American Chutzpah I guess you forgot about the slaves that drove a big part of the economy? That gradually became part of the normal workforce after slavery was ended? The Chinese and others that built the rail road? All that didn’t happen under the boomers and they were pretty much there right after the genocide

[@milton7763]

AII American Chutzpah No, just not racist

[@goodguy5595]

What the f*** does that even mean.

[@robinpesek3657]

@@milton7763 You might want to blow off those dusty history books. The blacks did help build the economy in the south but the north burned down all the structures that housed that economy and the economy went with it it.

[@carlabolus7185]

Lionel Schriver is a brilliant thinker, writer and communicator - a special person.

[@BedsitBob]

How is "British jobs for British workers" racist? It simply calls for people of all colours, who are British citizens, to get priority.

[@lynseydrewitt3344]

I wonder if The statement 'British Jobs for British workers', can be both your suggestion of meaning and racist depending on whose hand that statement it being spoken by or repeated by, so the context needs to be asserted to make any definition. Perhaps the more media fuelled society which we all now share, there is such a need to entertain, sensationalise or scare to support their own agender that the subject across the board needs more clearly defined expression so as not to be misrepresented.

[@reynasanchez125]

You are looking at it wrong.. don't think about how is something racist. Think what kind of thought process would make some one think that British jobs for British workers is racist. It pretty simple.. they don't see themselves as British and they don't want British govt working for the British people.

[@primus7776]

Isn't "Boomer" a deeply Ageist term? ….Just asking? My age does not define me. My experience does.

[@x3r0h0ur]

Boomer has grown to more refer to a mindset than an age group. But sometimes it IS used as the age group. I find it hilarious when the "anti-idpol" crowd tries to use terms like Agesim though. I thought we didn't care about idpol like that?

[@primus7776]

@@x3r0h0ur "Anti identity politics crowd"? You mean most reasonable people who do not buy into the current leftist/Marxist ideology parroted by extended-adolescence children still in the education system?

[@x3r0h0ur]

@@primus7776 Seriously my guy. Reread what you just wrote. "Marxist leftist ideology", "extended-adolscence children in the education" You're first using buzz-scare words parroted by mainstream media to describe something you don't even know what it is. The second thing is you being anti-intellectual. This anti-intellectualism, portraying universities as EXTREME LEFTIST entities dates back to the 50s, and yet here we are, still in capitalism, infact a much more distilled capitalism, neoliberal capitalism, still no leftism, still no marxism in mainstream discourse. Radicalism on universities is just radicalism of youth, which always tapers off. Things are not any different now that it has been for decades, its just all captured and all public now. You're hand-wringing over the rebelliousness and 'radicalism' of youth that has ALWAYS existed. You're catastrophizing.

[@primus7776]

@@x3r0h0ur Not really, as I hadn't identified a catastrophic" outcome per se. Just observing that terms like "identity politics" are worthy of contempt in their own right, as are the leftist collectivist Morons who spout them.

[@x3r0h0ur]

@@primus7776 to me Identity politics has always been a derogatory call out for people who engage in identity at the forefront of their politics, often times to the detriment of other things. The odd thing is, that identity politics has been present since humanity started to exist, and has been constant, but to varying degrees all along. To dismiss leftism as collectivist morons is to ignore the vast majority of human history as collective in its construction and to downplay the benefits of human collective behavior which brought us to where we are. You clearly choose to engage in bad faith and act on othering propaganda pushed by MSM (Fox, etc).

[@Judah_P]

"I don't treat people like tick-boxes but these Boomers need to shut up."

[@brikimbran]

Exactly!!

[@tkenglander6226]

Yeah, with that comment, she just treated people like tick-boxes. She needs to check herself!

[@corpgov]

i think she meant gammon

[@garyb3946]

@@corpgov What's a gammon?

[@that1chickinFL]

Every time Dawn opens her mouth, a rambling stream of nothing comes out.

[@johanvdl2002]

There ar many ways to get to Nirvana, by trying to reach nothingness. :-) :-)

[@aidansevern3134]

She was so dull to listen to

[@KuroiTora23]

@@aidansevern3134 honestly I listened attentively to Lionel's speech. While I only listened with barely half an ear to Dawn's. I found her hard to follow and understand, therefore hard to listen too.

[@chrisgreene2623]

I am sure many have said the same thing about you too

[@KuroiTora23]

@@chrisgreene2623 I would just like clarification on who you are talking to, please.

[@DetectiveThursday]

David Lammy being the Labour MP, seems more concerned with defending his own place of power and being a politician than examining the principles behind this debate.

[@declancurry4479]

He is just a poor mans Bernie Grant

[@abrahamlincoln5661]

Lammy 1.08 ''You are right, of course there are people using identity as a means to push a kind of totalitarianism...or to preference one group'' Yes...you.

[@maryamkim1281]

Prove it.

[@abrahamlincoln5661]

@@maryamkim1281 What is the question?...you want me to prove David '' "the world does not need any more white saviours" Lammy is playing the game of racial supremacy/identitarianism..is that what you are asking for?

[@vajrayogini37]

Lammy is a Marxist.

[@TNJSRP]

There has always been one group (white) that makes itself preferential.

[@tulab4295]

JadaMP what the heck you talking about

[@agni8263]

Great speech from Lionel. The rest of speakers had no idea what identity politics have become - they idealise it.

[@animal482]

I honestly did not know about this subject until about a yr and a half ago. When covid hit I started paying attention. I see the people that play identy politics are basically just griffters. With social media it's become big business for them.

[@Kunfucious577]

@@animal482 its alot more than business now. It's infected america like a cancer and no one is willinh to fight back.

[@nealorr5086]

Dawn Foster, walks on stage, thinks "These people are older than me, therefore I'll attack them based on being boomers." Proceeds with arguments based on Strawmen and anecdotal evidence.

[@firerabbit583]

Totally. And she's a boomer herself in the eyes of almost everyone that uses the word..!

[@flynnjaman]

@@firerabbit583 BUT WHAT ABOUT HER HIP PURPLE PLATINUM CROWN 👑?!

[@jamesdarcy4945]

where was Shiver's "evidence"?

[@nealorr5086]

@@jamesdarcy4945 See, also: BLM Riots. Dumbass.

[@jamesdarcy4945]

@@nealorr5086 kzbin.info/www/bejne/j4useqOHbc2Er7s

[@fallonstone408]

19:12 Dawn is amazing! How she knew that all those white wealthy homeowners in their 50's never experienced any hardship due to the global financial crash as it didn't really affect them or any other of life's perils.... wow, just truly amazing how one could know such things and with such certainty.

[@jvincent6548]

The GFC certainly affected me: my stock portfolio lost over 27% of its value in the period 2008 - 2010. That's about $1.8m! These selfish young people today. They have no idea what sacrifices we make!

[@highdownmartin]

Dawn like er, you know, um , didn't really say anything? Lionel on the other hand, brilliantly erudite

[@abigailslade3824]

Perfectly articulated

[@desydukuk291]

My white grandfather didn't get the vote until 1918. I don't think Lammy has any experience or even sensitivity to talk for him.

[@catrionamacfarlane4949]

Andcno doubt like my white grandfathers he'd fought in the trenches for four years .😊They know nothing of British history, and the franchise.

[@465marko]

Why couldn't he vote before 1918?

[@desydukuk291]

@@465marko All UK adult men were enfranchised by the Representation of the People Act 1918, not before, so he did not fall into the category that could vote like millions of other men. Didn't you know that Marko?

[@465marko]

No, I never knew that. Thanks for getting back to me. Was it basically just the rich property owning men that could vote before then?

[@desydukuk291]

@@465marko Yes Marko and some not too rich either, wikipedia will give you some answers: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_franchise_in_the_United_Kingdom_1885%E2%80%931918

[@simonclare100]

Lionel is way ahead of this panel

[@maryamkim1281]

Really? She's quite backward.

[@DafuqROB]

Nope, she's spot on. The woman in red however...

[@simonclare100]

@@maryamkim1281 quite backward ?😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 you obviously weren't listening or are to far left to be objective

[@mjones4083]

Yes, totally outclassed and out thought them .

[@johanvdl2002]

@@simonclare100 When it is not in line with Mao's cultural revolutions dictates or Judge Vishisky's inquisitive thesis, Maryam Kim will vigorously oppose anyone whatever the quality of their arguments. I just infomed her that both are death long time ago. Maybe she is now finally free. She has no more need to virtue signalling to them anymore.

[@F1rstWorldNomaD]

I will die before I give an ounce of respect to anyone who *demands* it. Respect is earned, not given.

[@banjopadocks8514]

You'll die?

[@Ozgipsy]

The BBC moderator is clearly biased...as expected.

[@srrlIdl]

How so?