DEBATE: Is it WRONG to pray to the Saints in Heaven? Matt Fradd Vs Cameron Bertuzzi

I debate with Protestant, Cameron Bertuzzi, whether or not praying to the saints in heaven is Biblical.
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[@paulcjakubik217]

How favoured am I to be born into the Catholic Faith; how foolish am I that I abandoned the Faith; how Merciful is Almighty God that He forgave this prodigal son and called me back to His embrace.

[@cynthiax56]

-Thanks be to the merciful God above, that he showed me the truth and beaytriful of his CATHOLIC church, and led me away from the false, man made protest church. I was not fortunate enough to have been born into the catholic church, but I am a catholic BY CHOICE

[@_ManOfThePeople]

The Church doesn’t matter guys it’s who you have been restored back to. Christ Jesus. God our savior and Lord. Without Jesus the church is meaningless.

[@curtisjordan9210]

Jesus' church matters.

[@Sunny-hv7pt]

Beautifully said. I came back home too. The love and mercy shown to me is overwhelming ❤🙏🏼

[@sebwoz8766]

​Me too! Praise God.

[@mr.caleblynn9246]

I was raised a Pentecostal, received my primary education from the Church of Christ, became a member of a Christian church, and received Methodist Holiness higher education. I was thoroughly Protestant in every form of Christian thinking. As a teenager I began dealing with pornography addiction. One night, when I was 20, I felt an extraordinary temptation to cave in to my addiction. I prayed harder than I had ever prayed and felt the Holy Spirit on me. Even still, I felt a supernatural temptation. As I was praying in the spirit I was led to pray “Lord Jesus have mercy” over and over again. After I had prayed this a number of times, I was led to pray “Mary pray for me. Michael send angels.” As soon as these words left my mouth, the temptation ended. Christ says that demons can not be cast out in the name of demons and that a house divided against itself cannot stand. Because of this, I am confident that what happened came from God. This is the only thing that could’ve convinced me that prayer to the saints was truly a desire God has for us. Please know God wants to draw you nearer to you through the communion of the saints.

[@patrickbarnes9874]

I think it's a false dichotomy to say it didn't come from demons so it could only have come from God. No. It could have come from your subconscious. Additionally, you should read the verses again. Jesus was not talking about temptation. He was talking about demonic possession. People really need to guard themselves against spiritual delusion. You open yourself up to dark things when you start thinking that every little thought that pops into your head is from God. That's how people end up with crazy eyes standing on street corners shouting at people to repent.

[@justinrehm268]

Pentecostalism is far afield of the reformation. There is generally a very low view of Scripture. Pentecostalism appeals to the sensational, the emotional. It uses words like “spirit”, “in the spirit”, hijacked from scripture to lend a veneer of quasi-Christian language to pure emotionalism that is so very popular in contemporary American culture. Pentecostalism doesn’t know which side of the Tiber it sits on loving neither the ultimate authority of scripture (as the reformers do) nor the authority of tradition (as Rome does). Pentecostalism represents a third way where the subjective experience of the individual presides over and judges both scripture and tradition. The average Pentecostal has only the most shallow acquaintance with scripture and virtually zero continuity with tradition. It may reach into both streams in order to appropriate some new theological novelty to hit a new emotional (labeled “spiritual”) high. All of which is evidenced in the experience you describe above.

[@fury_blade9303]

@@patrickbarnes9874 how does that account for the fact that his temptation was instantly defeated

[@clemenaparente9773]

This miracle is a testimony till the day I die. I am an out of school youth for several years and everyone despised me. There is a program for out of school youth in the Philippines but i didn’t review and no hope for passing. I decided to have a novena to St. Jude Thadeus and I translated it Tagalo(local language) then prayed it for nine consecutive days. The exam came, the after 3 months result came out. Fast forward I have a degree in Philosophy now and still sipping with Aquinas. God bless!

[@Dragonarrr]

It is not a debate, we have two men here who actually agree and defend their common position.

[@KayElayempea]

I know they seem to be agreeing and supporting each other's positions.

[@andrewwhite1802]

As a Protestant who is discerning Catholicism the argument for the intercession of the saints I think is pretty solid. What concerns me is when I hear Catholics pray for Saints (not God) to do things for them (e.g. “Pray to St Catherine that she will give you courage”). What power does a saint have to great supernatural gifts in and of themselves? I would think none. I want to think this is just a fringe abuse but I hear it so commonly and from well respected Catholic groups that it’s hard for me to believe that. I recently started to listen to the “Catholic Saints” podcast (which has great information and is put out by the Augustine Institute, who also runs “Formed”) and they pretty regularly say things like this at the end of a podcast. Perhaps they mean, “pray to St Catherine that she would intercede on your behalf and ask Christ to give you courage” but if that’s what they mean to say then that’s what Catholics should say. It would go a long way to helping would be Catholic Protestants like me. As it is it does appear that many Catholics perceive that the saints, Mary or otherwise, hold within them supernatural powers. This is a sticking point for me currently and would love to hear the Catholic perspective but whenever I try to look this up online, all I ever get is “ Catholics pray for the intercession of saints”.

[@CountMondego55]

I'm with you man. It's a slippery slope towards abuses and sacrilege. Catholics get wayyyy too many avenues for this: prayer to saints, Marian chants/rosary, and on and on. Christ was, is and will always be more than enough and more than we deserve.

[@user-qh4dr1vy9d]

I really want to hear a Catholic perspective on it. What I've got so far is that "some" believers are misguided and do worship the saints and Mary even though the Catholic Church doesn't teach so.

[@Cipriano-mw4mq]

Saints do not have supernatural powers by themselves. Whatever supernatural gift they receive comes from God and not them. For example, in Matthew 10:1 Jesus gives authority to the apostles to heal diseases and drive out impure spirits. Also, the many miracles performed by the apostles in the book of Acts (Acts 3:1-10, Acts 5:12-16, Acts 9:32-35, Acts 14:8-10) are done through the apostles but by the power of Jesus. When Catholics pray for saints to do things for us, we are truly asking for their intercession. A common example would be the wedding at Cana. We are simply asking for the saints in Heaven, who are closer to Jesus than we are, to intercede for us in our needs. Whether we ask for a cure for a disease or a job opportunity, the miracle will occur by the power of Jesus through the intercession of the saints.

[@justintaylor3044]

Catholic here, any and all “supernatural” graces come from God alone. Any Saint who has proven themselves in any kind of virtue; Chastity, Humility, Etc. has been called by the Lord to exercise these virtues while they were here in the flesh, and we call their strength through intersession for our behalf in matters concerning these virtues, or rather their adjacent vice; fornication, pride, etc. And you can ask why not just ask God, the thing is, we are. When we give alms to the needy, we give alms to God. (Matthew 25:35.) Likewise when a Saint intercedes for us it can only be God’s grace that flows through prayer into our life, but is performed through the family we have in Christ because God is just THAT beautiful. Typically we ask those Saints who have conquered those vices we struggle with, and though God’s grace we see exactly what manner of strength is required to conquer those vices though that Saints very existence. In short, we still ask God for help when we call upon a Saint for intersession no matter which way you cut it, so long as in your heart you know everything comes from God, but performed through our family in Christ. Never believe we or the Saints can be anything or have anything without God, because he made us.

[@kevinmauer3738]

Of course the ultimate source of all good things is God, but He in His sovereign power also chooses to work through intermediaries. Did God deliver the Israelites from Pharaoh or did Moses? God did, ultimately, but it's not incorrect to also say that Moses did. God is not a limited, created being like we are. His action is not in competition with ours. To say that I or St Catherine did something does not take away from the fact that it was ultimately God who did it.

[@wreloise1]

Being non-Catholic….I was inspired to begin the novena…”Little Flower” 🙏🏾❤️🙏🏾 “Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”” ‭‭Mark‬ ‭9:24‬ ‭

[@TheJoshC90]

"I would want to really look at the scriptures and determine if that's what the Bible actually teaches". Cameron, thousands of denominations have sprung up because of exactly that. People wanting to interpret scripture for themselves.

[@elf-lordsfriarofthemeadowl2039]

Hundreds of thousands

[@jotunman627]

Do they even know how to make the sign of the cross?, what has Christianity become....

[@fvrjohn14]

So let us go to men instead and tell them to interpret scripture for us and we'll trust them with our soul... or rather let men come to us and say only we can interpret scripture to you peasants... only we have the holy spirit so trust us with your souls...🤔

[@CedanyTheAlaskan]

@@fvrjohn14 "So let us go to men instead and tell them to interpret scripture for us and we'll trust them with our soul" -- Kind of sound like what protestants do, with themselves and their pastors. "or rather let men come to us and say only we can interpret scripture to you peasants" -- Yeah, not the attitude at all. Sound like you have a semi anti-Catholic stance. " only we have the holy spirit so trust us with your souls." -- Again, not what the Pope nor any one in a sort of power in the Church says. The vast majority of topic, Catholics can have disagreements on. Just a handful of doctrines are made cannon. It's a bit like going bowling and having the metal bars on the sides of the lane to prevent your ball from going into the gutter.

[@jean-pauldebeer8151]

The Ecumenical Counsels were set up in the early church to define the theology of the Church. To protect us from falling into heresy. The first Church was also the Orthodox, which holds true to the teachings of the first apostles. Try going to a liturgy and experience the Grace for yourself. You will then understand by experience.

[@augustvonmacksen2526]

Matt, I appreciate your way of discussing and not participating in argument. You easily could but give much grace to the oppositional viewpoint. I need to do this more often when I’m discussion with Protestants.

[@fvrjohn14]

I agree with what your saying, it's a good conversation but not participating in argument makes calling it a debate pointless

[@meatofpeach]

BTW, the saints in heaven are more alive than we are.

[@jon6car]

Matthew 11:11 "Amen I say to you, among those born of women there has been none greater than John the Baptist; yet the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he". Sounds like what you're talking about

[@annedsouza9890]

Yea the Saints are before God 😄

[@nein9.9]

this was already stated in the debate

[@davidkinkaide1467]

@Jokul What’s the biblical verse that supports your claim?

[@davidkinkaide1467]

@@jon6car Where is there a mention of alive saints in the verse you quoted?

[@CanisDei]

Thanks, Matt and Cameron. I’ve personally experienced more than two miracles happened to me in my life after praying to Saints. One was St. Antony who helped me find my lost property. And next was St. Francis who miraculously cured numerous some sort of skin tags that was over my body. (In diocese of Kottar, Tamil Nadu, India). Our Ancestors and we here are Catholics because of St. Xavier and St. Thomas who visited here long back and both died here in India, as you may know.

[@endtimesdetective3113]

Where in scripture does it say or at least indicate that we should ask dead saints for help?

[@atgred]

@@endtimesdetective3113 The premise is wrong. They are not dead.

[@CanisDei]

@@endtimesdetective3113 I got cured. It matters for me.

[@CanisDei]

@@atgred 🤍

[@endtimesdetective3113]

@@CanisDei I hope you realize that Satan can do miracles as well. Do you not remember when Yeshua said that Satan is the FATHER of lies? Satan will even work lying signs and wonders to deceive people into accepting one of his most dangerous doctrines (immortality of the soul)! Satan is THE master deceiver so do not base ur beliefs on miracles

[@Gentry.H.P.]

I love this, you two travailing through these topics is very enjoyable and edifying. It's the dialectical method done at its best. Also, Matt where did you get those glasses?!

[@amithrichard6979]

Love em! Please keep debating. Excellent

[@timothygriffith177]

Thanks for the video. I'm in the process of converting to Catholicism. Going thru catechesis currently. I watched this video as research into one of the many new-to-me doctrines that my Protestant family/friends have argued against. Though the video wasn't much of a debate, I think both sides were equally represented. There were even more arguments against prayers to Mary and the saints than my family/friends have raised haha. Props to Matt for the charitable argument style. Much appreciated, and very educational for me. Thank you.

[@joechriste7052]

Soul sleep would just be refuted by the fact that Moses and Elijah were there at Jesus’ transfiguration.

[@chris-nj3vg]

No, these people are exceptions to the rule.

[@atgred]

@@chris-nj3vg Rule? What rule?

[@chris-nj3vg]

@@atgred The rule is soul sleep.

[@GardenMinistry.]

If there is a "rule" and the exceptions are people like Moses and Elijah, then it would mean that only the godly (godly meaning those who lived a pious life consecrated to God, like the saints) are not asleep in heaven. Thus, praying to the saints makes sense. And side note, aren't many of the saints bodies miraculously incorrupt?

[@charbelyoussef604]

@@chris-nj3vg soul sleep is not the rule. It's not even a rule. Jesus said I'm the God of the living not the dead. Even when our body dies our soul is alive in Christ.

[@dmcc1703]

This is a great conversation. We need more of these talks to bring us together as different members of the body of Christ, opposed to what makes us different. Cheers Matt!

[@marymcreynolds9171]

I am listening and learning. I put your videos and others on my fb page. Thank you for loving instruction.

[@iqgustavo]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 🎙️ Matt Fradd and Cameron Bertuzzi engaged in a debate about praying to saints in heaven. 03:51 📖 Matt's modest goal was not to convince Protestants to pray to saints but to show that the practice is reasonable, biblical, and historical. 08:04 🌟 Saints in heaven are conscious, aware of events on Earth, and can intercede for us. 10:52 📖 The Bible provides examples of communion with saints in heaven, such as Jesus communing with Moses and Elijah. 16:48 🙏 Abusing devotion to saints doesn't negate its proper use, just as devotion to the Bible can have its pitfalls. 21:34 📖 The speaker approaches topics like the Eucharist and purgatory with an open mind, not predetermined by a particular view. 22:03 📜 The speaker plans to address common objections against prayers to the saints, focusing on the argument related to Deuteronomy 18:10-12. 23:40 📚 The passage in Deuteronomy 18:10-12 primarily pertains to discerning God's will through prophets, not related to asking saints for intercession. 29:34 🙏 The common Protestant objection that there's only one mediator, Jesus, doesn't preclude asking friends and family to pray for you. 34:36 🙌 Requesting the saints' intercession is not equivalent to worshiping them, as it doesn't attribute divinity to them. 36:36 📖 The absence of a direct biblical instruction doesn't necessarily mean that praying to saints is wrong; the Bible serves other purposes. 38:42 📜 Sola Scriptura doesn't require explicit biblical instructions for every practice; implicit arguments and early Church traditions support prayers to the saints. 42:24 🙏 The Catholic Church argues that the absence of biblical prohibition means praying to saints is not wrong. 44:11 🧐 Catholics believe the early Church's interpretation of Scripture holds more weight than interpretations from later periods. 56:27 🙌 Catholics believe the prayers of saints in heaven are more efficacious due to their righteousness and closeness to God. 01:00:12 🤔 Questions about how the saints hear and intercede in response to millions of prayers are speculative, and the answer might be in the mystery. 01:02:32 🌼 An experience involving Bishop Barron saying "little flower" before a technical issue resolution has piqued interest in exploring prayers to saints, like Saint Therese of Lisieux. 01:03:16 💬 A suggestion is made to create a video discussing why or why not to pray the Hail Mary prayer, diving deeper into the topic of praying to saints in the Catholic tradition. 01:03:30 🙏 Acknowledging Mary as the mother of God and praying to saints is acceptable within the Catholic tradition, and a Hail Mary prayer is suggested as a starting point for those curious about it. 01:04:11 🤝 The debate didn't have the anticipated fireworks, but it was a valuable discussion aimed at exploring the topic and addressing objections to reach a deeper understanding of the subject matter.

[@Blue-kf6ju]

Thank you for the timestamps! God bless you

[@Sunny-hv7pt]

Thank you ❤

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

Catholicism is a Religion different than Scripture-based Faith. Don’t Drink The Kool Aid. Repetition = Indoctrination. Don’t Trust, the UN-trustworthy.

[@deedee9495]

I understand Why many Protestants think we worship the saints and see them as gods. My parents come from a country full of natural religiosity. Ppl will not even go to mass but will kneel outside the church with their huge saint statues. It is so bad that ppl have made up saints that the church has not canonized and actually condemns. Like, the saint of the dead. “ Santa muerte.” Thanks to Vatican 2 and the new evangelization that is going on in their country these ideas and customs are slowly dying. And, while many are leaving the church the ones that are staying are part of new charisma’s in the church that actually evangelize correctly. My mom says that she remembers the priests going to the villages and would speak in Latin only. The ppl didn’t understand at all and this is why natural religiosity is so ingrained in the Latin American culture. Thank God for giving us Vatican 2 these countries have really benefited❤️

[@BlessedisShe]

Such good conversation!

[@mikethemonsta15]

Love your channel!

[@natalieabreu7276]

Really excellent discussion! So well balanced . So much light, rather than heat

[@vee84j53]

I had missed you two. Loved this.

[@FrWitt]

This was great. I would love a discussion on annihilationism. I've never really heard an argument for it that was well articulated.

[@christianstephens7213]

Thank you for sharing this

[@PaulDaLouis]

Loving it chaps. I was raised in the Dutch Reformed church, but have systematically journeyed into the post reformation church world. I now consider myself Anglican, with a big interest in the 'Oxford movement'. I can say for the first time in my life, I feel a power of peace come over me during holy communion, which btw I've never felt before. I'm also regularly praying the rosary, BUT I have not scratched the surface of 'communion of the saints'. So this is an awesome chat.

[@jmjaquinas7298]

That is awesome! Have you read John Henry Newman’s “Apologia”? I would highly recommend it to anyone enamores with the Oxford Movement in any way. May God continue to bless you and keep praying the Rosary! The devil hates it

[@PaulDaLouis]

@@jmjaquinas7298 I'll put it on my to read list, thanks.

[@culturecoroner]

@@PaulDaLouis Ignore Pat. I’m not sure why he thought it was a good idea to uncharitably troll your thread. May God bless you on your journey!

[@balukuroben7458]

I loved your dialogue on both sides.

[@marianweigh6411]

Loved the initial presentation by Mr Fradd. Especially pointing out the stadium metaphor. How perfect! Those who have already won the race and live with God in heaven are looking down 'rooting' for us, hoping for our endurance as we run our race. Those who wonder about this practice could greatly benefit by _encountering_ the saints. I was not a Catholic at the time when I read St Thérèse's Story of the Soul, but reading it I felt her overwhelming intention to rain down roses from heaven. I felt the purity of her road to the Cross, and it helped me understand my own road. One photo of her took on such life for me. Her eyes looked at me with the weight of eternity. She challenged me, understood my nothingness, and reminded of Christ and the stakes of salvation. Of course it was all the Father drawing me to his Son; nonetheless, in a simple human way, it seemed like she was channeling grace to me, that she cared specifically about me. That she came into my hands then for reasons far beyond what I could comprehend. Through her I had my first experiences with the Blessed Mother, which was new to me as I was raised Lutheran. And right at that time, a monk gifted me my first Rosary which I use to this day (~10 years ago). Among many other, even more precious happenings. Giving ourselves over to what the saints have to give opens up realities we _cannot predict._ Encountering saints draws us deeper into the Mystery of God they lived. Unfortunately, we aren't regularly encountering people who are perfected in holiness. By establishing a relationship with saints, they begin to go with us, they become part of our personal community, it's their voices that we hear. They encourage us in holiness, not abstractly but with our participation. Intercession isn't magic, it's progress in faith, hope, and love. Our love for them by definition is love for Christ, because they are saints to the extent that they are in Christ, members of his body and eternally in his presence. They are aides for opening us to the grace God wishes to flood into us. We need all the channels we can get! Every saint that lives opens another channel to Christ's love by their witness of love. Their witness strengthens us so much in our own witness - come and see! St Theresa Benedicta of the Cross, pray for us. St Isaac of Nineveh, pray for us. St Paul, pray for us. Christ be upon us always.

[@mcsmama]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts ... "Encountering saints draws us deeper into the Mystery of God they lived. ... By establishing a relationship with saints, they begin to go with us, they become part of our personal community..." ; some wonderful insights! God bless! [1.12.2022]

[@lh1053]

I loved this!!! As I was not even aware it was a debate! 😂

[@GardenMinistry.]

I haven't finished the entire video yet (so I don't know if you cover Mary here) but please please please debate Mary next! I and many protestants I've tried to inform in the past would truly appreciate it!

[@oroyplataman]

This man will be Catholic within a year.

[@dnaak]

If he accepts the grace, then I agree. But sometimes people have winding journeys. The Lord is patient.

[@charbelyoussef604]

He is flirting with Catholicism for a few years now. I doubt he will convert anytime soon.

[@cynthiajohnson8463]

Or sooner 😉

[@claymcdermott718]

Maybe. We pray that we’ll all grow deeper into Christ’s Body. I think he’ll probs have a long CS Lewisy brand Christianity phase

[@jotunman627]

He does not understand, he is satisfied with his shallow Christianity.

[@manny75586]

...and now Cameron is Catholic...welcome home, brother

[@choppy1356]

Somewhere around the 11:00 mark, the whole video is frozen and silent for me the rest of the way through. Happened the day before on my mobile, and I thought I just had a poor connection. Same thing today on a fiber connection.

[@vegeta171]

Lots of respect and love for both Matt and Cam. They have such a wonderful brotherly love for each other in-spite of being Catholic and Protestant, which serves as a great example to be emulated by us. This discussion was great, but I would have loved someone else to debate Matt instead of Cam. Don't get me wrong I have great respect for Cam but it would have been better for someone who has done more research on this topic and someone who strongly believed in the Protestant belief on this topic, as Cam admitted in the beginning that he doesn't have much objections. Because there are Christians on both sides who are still looking for answers and such Christians look at this discussion they would consider one viewpoint weak and other strong. I feel opinions from both sides should be well presented for helping us make our minds. I know there are other debates which are available but still it would have been better had they done that. Having said that I'm very much thankful to both of you for your ministries it has been very much helpful and resourceful. Thanks and may God bless you both.

[@Racingbro1986]

Very stirring discussion

[@fsnicolas]

I really enjoyed this. Not only were you engaged in dialogue, but there's a real sincerity and openness that helps us all get closer to the truth and to Jesus. God bless you both! Here's to more friendly, honest dialogue!

[@redeemerstrikes9522]

I wouldn’t call this a debate at all but it was a good video with some interesting info and I did enjoy it. Thank you!

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

Catholic Indoctrination. That’s it.

[@anthonywhitney634]

I'll be honest here, I'm disappointed that Cameron seems to have only done minimal research as to why Protestantism rejects praying to the 'Saints'.

[@bradyhayes7911]

what are the best arguments from Protestants on this? I'm a cradle protestant discerning expressions of Christianity and he brought up basically all the arguments I can find. Something about praying through saints feels weird but I don't know why exactly

[@matthewmanning6195]

I agree. This was weak from Cameron on a research level. He stayed away from some of the strongest points Protestants have to offer this conversation.

[@benbennett5301]

Its borderline necromancy. God forbids us on talking to the dead as there can be unclean spirits that pretend to be the person you are trying to contact. @@bradyhayes7911

[@fabricpixie3602]

lots of non Catholics pray the rosary, the Hail Mary prayer.

[@mangispangi]

Was hoping for a full debate with good points on each side. I am an orthodox myself, we pray to the saints. However I keep coming accross prayers to Mary or some other saint, that read like worship, not like asking them to pray for us. In fact there are sentences in there like Mary, you are the only saviour of humans or if it wasn't for you we would be lost...reading these prayers sounds so much like worship and so little like a request that it is hard to defend the stance my own church has on this. Does anyone have a resource, does anyone have a indepth viewpoint on this anywhere. Would much appreciate it! Thank you! Yeshua is the Son of The Most High! In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit!

[@balukuroben7458]

Being a protestant who started questioning the catholic teachings. One day I asked the LORD about the issue of the communion of saints ,and just immediately or so, in a vision , I met Apostle Peter,& John preaching , interestingly John gave much respect to Peter because when i went to John and asked Him some question he said I go to Peter. the other interesting thing is I was telling john, how I love his gospel writings, and he said to me don't praise me for that it wont please the other Apostle. I then asked John ,since you are perfected before the LORD Jesus ,pray for us so that we may join you in glory. Apostle John then said to me 'Resist the devil". In this same vision the LORD wanted me to know that infant baptism is Apostolic ,because as I was with John , Peter was inside the church baptizing a child ,and John asked me to join them in the church. In consequent visions i was to meet Apostle Paul who taught me many things, I again met Apostle James,in this particular vision ,I was shown how he was killed until his soul was taken up to heaven. I later again met John as though in a paradise garden as an elderly man, here he made me to understand the Apocalypse which he wrote. Quite many things have been revealed to me for the last three years and am now considering entering the catholic church.

[@mormonismtochristianity2607]

Thank you for being honest, and making this debate about seeking truth more than about winning an argument.

[@NaruIchiLuffy]

I'd love to hear what someone like William L. Craig has to say about the topics discussed in these past few podcasts (i.e. Eucharist, and Saints) and the points made by each side.

[@claymcdermott718]

He himself doesn’t like doing interdenominational controversies. That’s his prerogative, though it would be interesting to hear his thoughts.

[@jacintowilliamson5597]

Please pray for me because I'm really struggling with this issue.. thank you

[@BernardoRojasdeLuna]

Hello Jacinto, has the Lord guided you in any way or another regarding this issue?

[@dwong9289]

Here to promote the intercession of St. Therese of Lisieux. Her prayers are very efficacious, the Lord fixed a problem in my life I was dealing with for many months within a few days of invoking her intercession! And of course the prayers of the Immaculata are the most effective saintly prayers.

[@Cjinglaterra]

My own view is that there is nothing wrong with asking the saints for prayer. I think that the Catholic Church is correct in making a distinction between veneration and worship. My concern is in practice, not doctrine, as to me it seems that many Catholics go past what is appropriate, especially where the Virgin Mary is concerned.

[@henrylansing9734]

I thought Matt's open was just so well done, so here are the examples from the Bible used by Matt in his opening statement: We as Christians are united in Christ mystically. -John 15:5: I am the vine, you are the branches. - Romans 12:4-5: For as in one body we have many members... Death does not separate us from Christ's body, therefore those who have died in Christ must still be alive. -John 11:25-26 -Mark 12:27 Saints in Heaven are aware of Saints on Earth. -2 Maccabees 15:11 -Tobit 12:12 -Matthew 17:1-9 [Christ set an example to converse with the saints in heaven, we cannot converse with saints because we are separated from heaven unlike in the transfiguration however they can hear our prayers.] Hebrews 12:1 What does Revelation say? -Revelation 6:9 [martyrs are conscious before the Second Coming and are aware of what is happening on Earth] -Revelation 5:8-10 [Elders in Heaven offering the prayers of the Saints on Earth to God] Christians in Heaven are perfected by Grace and therefore more charitable and more likely to pray for us to God than Christians on Earth.

[@mcsmama]

Thank you for creating this text of Matt's opening arguments/statements. God bless! [1.12.2022]

[@henrylansing9734]

@@mcsmama You are welcome! God bless.

[@PeterB_]

Just to clarify, Matt is incorrect about Orthodox communion. If you're Russian Orthodox (like me), you can partake of the eucharist at a Greek church. There's a disagreement among patriarchs with regards to the jurisdiction of Ukraine. No schism has been entered into by either side and no official excommunication has been issued.

[@basedtheologiangaming4318]

Thanks you for correction.

[@iiBenIDx]

I was intrigued by the last question on how the saints would cope, especially given the response of technology. It made me think about how one video can reach millions of people, yet it’s just one video file, I think this could give us somewhat of a good picture of how it may happen.

[@vikingbme97]

Love dialogues like this, but bring back the beard Matt!

[@Alf20783]

Just became a fan of this channel and podcast. I have been listening to a ton of episodes in the past week and I love all of them, but this one missed the mark for me because this was not a DEBATE, I appreciate the knowledge that both brought forward but I just wanted it to be more of an actual debate.

[@johnxland9373]

Matt please do a debate between Cameron and Steve Ray, that would be awesome!

[@joelmontero9439]

I like Matt and Cameron doing videos together they are open thinkers and honest so its interesting to hear them chat about profound topics.

[@lordblarg]

I disagree with so much of this opening statement regarding church history and Biblical texts, but for the sake of not getting lost in the weeds, can someone answer me this: Why would I ever pray to St. Paul or St. Peter when I could pray directly to God Himself in the name of Jesus Christs---the one mediator between God and man?

[@kyrptonite1825]

Job 42:8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. As you can see, God asked Job’s friends not to pray to Him directly, but instead, to ask Job to pray for them. Why? Because Job is righteous, and as Scripture says, the prayers of the righteous are effective. That’s why we go to the Saints for their intercession, or prayers, because it is a clear Biblical precedent to go to the righteous to ask them to pray for you, and God might answer their prayer, and a lot of the time is more likely too. And those in heaven are very righteous, spotless, and without the effects of sin. Even Moses often prayed for the Israelites, or for Pharoah, and God answered Moses, and helped these people because of Moses’s prayer. And we often see people like the kings of Israel asking prophets to pray to the Lord for them, because they know the Lord will answer them. It’s a clear Biblical precedent. And plus, the prayers of multiple is better than one person praying. Still, praying to God directly is extremely important and can never be replaced, but intercession is also very important. The different Apostles ask for people to pray for them, and write for people to pray for each other, or intercede for them. And even the Jews had a belief where they went to the graves of the “Tzadikim” (righteous ones), and asked them for prayers. This is in the Mishnah. Jesus is the One Mediator, but through Jesus, the Body of Christ can pray for one another, if we weren’t allowed to be intercessors, or small mediators, then we simply wouldn’t be able to pray for or intercede for others. However, Jesus will always be the One Mediator between God and man, as the God-Man.

[@kyrptonite1825]

In the original Christian Bible Canon, before Martin Luther removed these Books, Tobit 12:12-14 says: Tobit, when you and Sarah prayed to the Lord, I was the one who brought your prayers into his glorious presence. I did the same thing each time you buried the dead. 13 On the day you got up from the table without eating your meal in order to bury that corpse, God sent me to test you. 14 But he also sent me to cure you and to rescue your daughter-in-law, Sarah, from her troubles. As you can see an angel, the Archangel Raphael, knew of the prayers of Tobit, and brought the prayers to God. Furthermore, 2 Maccabees 15:11-16 mentions that Maccabees saw a vision where the former (deceased) High Priest Onais told him that he was praying for Israel (in the war effort), and so was the prophet Jeremiah. They both knew of the things on earth and prayed for those on earth. Rev 5:8 “And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders qfell down before the Lamb, reach holding a harp, and sgolden bowls full of incense, twhich are the prayers of the saints.” The Elders, have been generally said to be Christians in heaven by Biblical scholars for multiple reasons. However, this is metaphorical. It shows the Saints in heaven bringing the prayers (in bowls) of the Saints on earth, to Jesus (the Lamb). This describes intercession, the Saints clearly know of the prayers of the faithful, and it shows them bringing these to God. This could be metaphorical for those in heaven interceding for those on earth, and they are literally bringing these prayers to Jesus, because ultimately all prayers go to God, and Jesus is also our Mediator, and it is done through Jesus. Also, God is the God of the living, and the Saints are alive, and we are the Body of Christ, and the Body heals each other, and not even death can separate this Body. The Bible even says we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, which invokes thoughts of people on the clouds praying for us, that king of mental imagery, and the Bible tells us to throw off our yokes onto these witnesses. Again, the Jews, according to the Mishnah, believed in going to the graves of the righteous dead, and asking them to pray for them. The early Christians also believed in Saintly intercession: HERMAS “[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]). ORIGEN “But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]). CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA “In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]). “Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger” (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]). Furthermore, “pray” simply means “to ask”. And while Protestants might say all prayer is worship, Catholics don’t believe this. There are different types of prayer, Adoration, thanksgiving, etc. And the Catholic Church doesn’t really use the term pray to Saints, the Church uses the term “Invoke” the Saints in our prayers. And when we do this, we are asking for their prayers, or intercession. Furthermore, we don’t worship Saints we respect or revere or honor them, that’s what venerate tends to mean, but we only worship God. And the early Christians seem to agree with our view. Furthermore, we also believe in Apostolic Tradition, the teachings and etc passed down orally, as well as Written Scripture. So not everything we believe has to be explicitly stated in Scripture, not even everything in Protestantism is explicitly stated. But, primarily Scripture Alone is a Protestant doctrine, that Christians before the Enlightenment period didn’t believe in, that seems to self-contradict itself (it’s not mentioned in the Bible, and the Bible was created by the Catholic Church), and also the Bible seems to support Tradition, so you have to remember Catholics also believe Apostolic Tradition to be Biblical too, and that Scripture Alone is a new thing that Protestants claim.

[@jaynex903]

Mary did intercede at the wedding of Cana...she keeps doing the same even in a better way cause now she is the Mother of all nations and the Queen of heaven. But more than these She has always been the Mother of our Beloved lord and they deeply love each other.

[@xUncleA123x]

49:52 The Trinitarian benedictions/prayers at the beginning and end of the Paul's letters are also prayers to the Holy Spirit.

[@claymcdermott718]

A good point, but I suppose one could point out a lack of precedent for prayers to the 3rd person w/o the other 2

[@xUncleA123x]

@@claymcdermott718 Thats a fair point you made.

[@markharris5400]

Yeah lets sow doubt ...keep up the good work

[@delvaassante5699]

Great video! Great job Matt! Im glad Cameron has come around to Catholicism.

[@danielseidel447]

How do we know who is in heaven to ask them to pray for us? How do we know for sure they are in heaven? As Jesus said 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’. Build your life on Christ as the foundation for your life - Worship, guidance and prayer. Christ, Father and the Holy spirit are one.

[@JustinWest]

31:47 when it comes to 1 Timothy 2:5, you also need to read from the beginning of that chapter because it literally begins with Paul exhorting us to be intercessors for all people.

[@mcsmama]

This was great! Thanks so much! @29:32 Clarifying the word "mediator" to make the distinction regarding the argument that Protestants often site regarding The Bible stating that there is only one mediator between man & God, & that is Jesus. Mediator does not mean exactly what people think in that context. See 1st Timothy 2, verse 5 through 6 (Protestants typically only site verse 5 in their argument, but verse 6 is needed for full context.) The confusion comes in the translation of the word "mediator", which here refers to Jesus being the sole Person who paid the ransom for our sins; this does NOT communicate anything about intersession or asking others to intercede for us. "DEBATE: Is it WRONG to pray to the Saints in Heaven? Matt Fradd Vs Cameron Bertuzzi" - Pints With Aquinas [1.12.2022]

[@top8305]

The end question, how can the Saints in Heaven manage the plethora of prayer requests for their intercession is not speculative at all: the Saints in Heaven are outside of time and by the Grace of God -- in His Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotence -- can enable any number of prayers to be efficaciously interceded to Him by His Holy Ones in Heaven without regard to time. We can pray for the Salvation of a long-dead person and the merits of it, by God's Grace can be efficacious to the Salvation of a deceased of long ago. Lastly, if an intersession is contrary to the Divine Will, it's merit will be elsewhere applied and will benefit the petitioner as a Spiritual Act of Mercy. Pax Christi

[@CanisDei]

Most of the Catholics must be aware that St. Antony did receive from God, a special power of restoring lost things. If you ever unfortunately lose something that meant a lot to you, please try reciting this prayer with full devotion. It will be found. Also, with regards to this same prayer, we not only can pray for the lost things, but also can pray for our lost faith. Even that will be restored. God bless!

[@bairfreedom]

I want to point something out. I am not being insulting, but I want you to see why I as a Protestant do NOT pray to Saints etc. for lost thing, accounting, etc etc. You pointed out the Patron saint of Lost things is Saint Anthony. OK......My argument is that the reason you think that is because a system of patron saints was invented late in the game when Christianity was officially made the religion of Rome. It adopted Roman practices. Pagan Rome ALSO has patron Gods of little things like this, and so did the Greeks! Examples: Greek God of Lost things? was Hermes, The Patron Roman GODDESS of lost things? Was Nataero. When I see this (and I am a total nerd, most people do not know these things) My red flags go bonkers! It is the EXACT Pagan system with the names changed to Saints of Christians who had passed. But if we follow the roots of Christianity to the EARLIEST church (acts and epistles) and then go back to Jewish practice where Jesus is rooted in what do we find? We find Nothing. No veneration. decoration? YES!! veneration of ANY kind? Absolutely NOT.

[@CanisDei]

@@bairfreedom Your argument is wrong. I don't believe because of the invented system of Saints. I claim them to be true because I experienced it in real life. I don't thank the Saint when I experience a miracle after praying to the Saint. Instead, I thank God for having listened to the Saints' intercession. I'm a Dominican Novice. I recommend you to read Summa Theologiae by Saint Thomas Aquinas, wherein you have arguments, objections and the final conclusion of all that you may have less clarity on.

[@kerri7145]

Wow, interesting debate

[@sethgilbert1086]

I think it is much more important for us to be asking our fellow believers "How can I pray for YOU" rather than asking them (or those in heaven) to pray for us.

[@jamesprins9735]

I would say both are important, and also that if one of the two is more important than the other, it still doesn't mean that the less important one shouldn't be done.

[@jogon2433]

Why with the false dilemma ? Why is it either or why can it not be both ?

[@cd6104]

So my question about praying to the saints is in relation to the idea of purgatory. How do we know that the saint, for instance: a loved one we are asking to intercede for us, is in heaven? Is there are Catholic teaching on this? This is my one hangup. If I am asking my grandfather, who was a devout man but had skeletons in his closet, to pray for me...how do I know my prayers for his intercession aren't just a waste of my time?

[@housecry]

Your grandfather would be private revelation. The Church can't speak to that. The pronouncements the Church makes is based on petitions from the faithful through miracles. To be canonized a Saint is a process. I'm new to learning about this, but my advice is look at the process of canonization.

[@alexk48]

We can also ask those in purgatory to pray for us. We should also offer up prayers for them. " may all the souls of the faithful departed through the mercy of God rest in peace. Amen."

[@alexk48]

@@housecry This is not what is meant by private revelation. The church instructs us that the souls in purgatory can pray for us. Also that we should pray for the dead and offer masses for the repose of their souls. The church recognizes that their are many saints in heaven that are unknown and who have not been formally canonized on earth.

[@housecry]

@@alexk48 How would that not qualify as private revelation? If a loved one passes away and appears to one in a vision or a dream the only one who could attest to it is the one who received the vision or dream. It may be true; it may not be true. How is private revelation defined?

[@gailday3781]

Prayer to my experience is always for my family 👍❤️🍀

[@EloSportsTalk]

What if a person's mind and heart aren't aligned on the issue? Should we go against conscience and pray saints? And what about the specificity of what saint to pray to for which thing? How does the Church know Anthony helps you find your car keys but Francis helps your sick puppy? I get there is biographical reasons but is there more?

[@rosiegirl2485]

I like Matt in a jacket, it makes him look cuter and smarter!

[@CrownedDiaries]

I hope the verse in ecclesiastes can be covered where it says “the dead know not”…. I’ve wondered about that

[@DjSostre7]

What a great question. I've wondered the same.

[@y_yy_2844]

Every time in the Epistles when Sts. Paul, John, or James say they are praying for their congregations, and by extension us, we are seeing the power of saintly intercession.

[@Aryanne_v2]

As a very recent (non-confirmed) convert from Protestantism, I find praying to the saints a very difficult thing to do because I am not used to it and have a hard time even remembering that I can do that. Is there anyone else that used to have this issue and how did you get over it?

[@SandCube]

If you haven’t already, it might be helpful to read the lives of Saints that have caught your attention, or watch videos on them. Whatever you like. And then, you can always take up a devotion to a Saint based on your life. If you’re a writer then St. Francis de Sales, if you’re struggling with a sin then a Saint known for helping people overcome said sin. I recommend Devotion to Mary first of all, and also to St. Therese of Liseaux. And if you haven’t already, I recommend praying The Rosary. Devotion to Mary is the best devotion we can have, after Jesus of course. But also, don’t be afraid that because you pray to Mary or to another Saint that you’re offending Jesus.

[@alexk48]

Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? It's just like that. Try Looking for a saint who had struggles similar to your own.

[@Aryanne_v2]

@@alexk48 Yeah I usually don't ask other people to either

[@jacquesdemolay1765]

@@Aryanne_v2 ex protestant here, it took me years and years to feel comfortable with the blessed mother and the saints, I started with a rosary except I would only say one hail mary and the rest of the beads would be the Jesus prayer, slowly but surely I got more comfortable with adding more hail marys. My advice is to take your time and take it slow. It takes time to wash off the protestant propaganda. May God's blessings be upon you.

[@Theescapist_87]

@@alexk48 I felt this way and praying the rosary really helped me.

[@Fubizz12345]

As a brother with honest questions and in need of answers. Is this chat still active? I truly am searching and need to find some answers to these questions

[@markus3376]

I was surprised very unpleasnt by what Matt said about the orthdox Church. First of all Greeks are alowed to receive the holy communion in Russian churches (what he said is just not correct). Second of all, though there is a conflict now between "Greek" orthodox Churches and the Russian Church, it's not a schism; moreover I could't give a dozens of examples of such conflicts inside the Roman Catholic Church after the great Schism (for instance the oposition between Popes and German bishops in xi-xiv cent.). It proves that having a one head of the Church doesn't save the Church from such kind of conflicts. And the last point: after the second Vatikan Council the RCC officially rejected to apply the term "schismatics" to the orthodox Church.

[@dannisivoccia2712]

If a person, having a personal request, has a strong relationship with the CEO (Jesus) of a major corporation, why would that same person go to the CEO's mom or co-employees (Mary or dead saints) to request of them?

[@growinfaithkate6184]

To prevent a conflict of interests for the CEO. consider this. If one has the advocacy of their fellow employees/saints they realize what is being asked is not only beneficial to just the one person but is beneficial as a whole for others in similar circumstances. Also if two people pray to Jesus for the same limited thing, let's say a promotion for the same job position. the one who may pray also for the saints to consider if the promotion is within God's will rather than approach Christ directly has an internal council and support of others, not saying the other party who goes directly to God can't get the promotion but having advocates can and does help us consider the gravity and priority the requests being made.

[@dannisivoccia2712]

@@growinfaithkate6184 In the natural realm, a CEO may have a conflict of interest; but the CEO (Jesus) never has a conflict of interest, since He knows the beginning and the end of all things, and His sovereignty and will supersedes all else, either seen or unseen. God knows what is beneficial for each of us better than anyone else. No offence, but God doesn't say, "Okay guys, what do all of you think about this personal request?"----as if it was a democracy. The CEO (Jesus, the Word of God) rules and reigns over heaven and earth. It is a theocracy.

[@mariadelpilarbenitez8063]

Imo, the important issue is what and who do we pray for.

[@jonathansoko5368]

Cameron's going to come home within the year. If he's honest he's gonna have to.

[@merseabless8305]

Yup, Rome sweet home

[@sthelenskungfu]

I'm a protestant that has always come down on the Catholic/Orthodox/historical/Church Fathers side of this issue. The idea of patron saints is based on three presuppositions that are uncomfortable for many Protestants: that the dead are aware of the actions of the living, that the dead can affect the world of the living either directly or indirectly, and that the dead can be assigned a job. Some Protestants are eager to proclaim that one of these is untrue and unbiblical. I view all three ideas with some degree of skepticism, but I don’t dismiss any one of them out of hand. I also kind of understand the appeal of patron saints. I enjoy reading about Christians from the past. One in particular has caught my imagination a few times. Jerome, the translator behind the Latin Vulgate, advocated translating the Old Testament from the Hebrew instead of the Greek which was typical for Latin translation at the time. I know a little something about being criticized for wanting to put together a Bible where I use a Hebrew source instead of the typical Greek source. If I felt certain that Jerome could hear me, I would enjoy going to a juice bar and getting a couple root beers to pour out my woes to someone who could really understand my problem. At least, in theory… you know… if I wasn’t the kind of guy that actually thrives on that kind of conflict. Most people in most places over most of time have had an intuitive sense that the departed hear us, even if they're raised in a tradition the explicitly says otherwise. Feelings may be the weakest kind of evidence, but they are evidence. I go over my thoughts on this in more detail on a blog post if anyone cares. shaunckennedy.wordpress.com/2020/05/16/thoughts-on-patron-saint/

[@erravi]

I find it interesting that Protestants will say, in casual passing, things like “Grandma is watching over me from above.” Before my mom lost her faith entirely, she church-hopped Protestant churches and in one of those was where my older brother was not baptized but “dedicated” to God. It’s like we intuitively feel the need for these things and the truth of them, yet most Protestants formally reject them. (speaking from a Catholic POV of course)

[@sthelenskungfu]

@@erravi I think that one of the big problems (on both sides) is the feeling that you have to either accept it all or reject it all, instead of evaluating each claim individually. I see the same thing in Catholics in things like Papal infallibility or the sinless conception of Mary. I've known several Catholics that have said something to the effect of, "Mary understands because she's a sinner too" and then, "Just because the Pope says so doesn't automatically make it true, no matter how he says it." I prefer to address each claim independently, myself.

[@stevenyoung3752]

This is the only debate I've seen where one side just kept on raising and refuting his own objections lol

[@nohemamorenomolina5458]

Se puede ver en español?

[@jonathanb9966]

Just found this channel and I am a little confused. I thought a debar would be two opposing views and I am 37min and they agree on virtually everything. Also he said “Bible does not say don’t look at porn” is that not covered by the lusting with your eyes?

[@cynthiajohnson8463]

Catholic here. Love Matt and love these two together 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

[@ultramusiq5507]

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

[@ultramusiq5507]

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

[@user-gx2yy1df6f]

i,ve had major surgery where i,ve been put under anisthetia, the instant i go unconsious is the same instant that i become consious again. as soon as i go out, i come to , i,m not "aware" that i,m out. one can never be aware of being unconscious, the ONLY time one is aware of unconsciousness is when one is indeed conscious. you cannot be unconscious and be aware or conscious of anything. my point is about "soulsleep" it doesn,t matter one whit whether we,re "asleep" or not, one goes from consciousness to consciousness.

[@isdochere]

I don’t see how this can be ignored in the debate. Maybe I have listened to enough yet? When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you (Deuteronomy 18:9-12).

[@frankharet8865]

Wow Matt crushed it - great job

[@jesusisourpassoverlamb2145]

excellent mom and dad analogy...thats why i left protestantism and looking into orthodoxy....which believes the saints participate in the energies of God...allowing them to hear our prayers supernaturally. Catholics dont have the essence energies distinction

[@yorkiem0m]

I've watched a bit of Cameron and he will be Catholic one day, took me 56 yrs to go from Methodist to Catholic LOL

[@dave1370]

I'd argue that going directly to the Source Is the best option regardless. Christ isn't unapproachable. Also, if someone is going to use the argument that we ask our friends on Earth to pray for us, I would argue that that's more for their benefit to participate in the communion of the church than it is for ours. God knows our needs. He surely doesn't need person X to make a good enough prayer in order to accomplish His will.

[@jaynex903]

I think it is fine if some people say we must directly pray while others say we can pray to saints....cause both are good and useful and helps those who are shy but want to approach the lord take the help of saints but to those who staying away from the lord think saints are enough have to approach the lord directly.

[@charbelyoussef604]

Sleep in the Bible is used in the context that the body is dead and laid down in a sleeping position, it has nothing to do with the soul, it's talking about the body of the dead person.

[@orbeuniversity]

Personal notes: 33:05 Analysis of: 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, ... For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," -1 Timothy 2:1 - 5 33:31 Three examples of how Jesus shares many of his unique roles with Christians in lesser ways. - Jesus is the creator, John 1:3 - Jesus is the shepherd, John 21:15 - Jesus is the eternal High Priest mediating for us (Hebrews 3:1), and we are also called to participate in that priesthood; 1 Peter 2:5, Rev. 1:6

[@doktorenko]

The unvarnished truth is that it is not wrong to pray for the Saints' intercession, and I vouch it overtly as being biblically accurate; in sundry passages we read, especially in the gospel of St Mark, that exorcisms manifest through the demons the veracity of supernatural facts under the authority of Christ, revealing his identity thereon as the son of God. Truthfully, this I have witnessed in time regarding the prayers of intercession for saints, especially Mary; for inasmuch as God allows to use these evil spirits to reveal their errors that led humankind to confusion and falsehood, that I have witnessed and here transmit that Mary is "she that will crush the head of the serpent" (Gen 3, 5) as the wicked devils were forced to confess, and that "none who loves her and serves her would see the flames of hell." Too many now will maim these facts as unevidenced biblically, but recall that the kingdom of evil cannot divide itself, and if God willed that Mary be the vessel of all graces to mankind as the bible teaches according to the first episodes of Luke's gospel, then what are we to contradict his decrees?

[@anthonywhitney634]

One Catholic defense I hear defending this against the charge that this is necromancy is that the 'Saints' in heaven are alive - but technically everyone who dies is 'alive' but in another location awaiting judgement day.

[@mattaconda77]

What would it look like if I had a small shine of pictures of my deceased family members , lit candles, got on my knees and then called them holy prior to my asking them to pray for me?

[@claymcdermott718]

If you go to Israel, you can visit the grave of Rachel, where Jews once asked her intercession.

[@bruno-orante]

I pray that Cameron will research, learn and pray one Hail Mary… 🙏❤️‍🔥🙏

[@lauras667]

We have so much in common. I appreciate and love that about my Catholic brothers and sisters. Scripture interprets scripture is another Protestant belief. Jesus communed with Moses and the prophets (Old Testament verifies this) before his incarnation, and during his incarnation (transfiguration). But the experience of seeing those prophets communing with Christ in the transfiguration is not the same as His praying to them. Nor did other Jewish followers appeal to the prophets in heaven, not a practice in the temple. I am still waiting to see Jesus setting an example or teaching us to pray to humans who have departed this life. And on what basis do we limit that practice to a few humans who have departed this life and been declared Saints? Why not also a very Godly ancestor who has departed? I do not doubt those in heaven continue to worship and pray for God’s intervention and prevailing over darkness, as we will when we depart this life. I just cannot find in the Bible a hierarchy that includes an intercessor other than our true High Priest, Jesus; who is our advocate before the Father, as taught in multiple scriptures. He who watches over Israel neither slumbers no sleeps….is a picture of our intercessor….thanks be to God.

[@tonyl3762]

Just because Protestant worship cannot reach beyond prayer does not give Protestants any right or reason to accuse Catholic prayer to saints of being worship. That's a deficiency on the part of Protestantism, not Catholicism.

[@MayContainJoe]

The main question is if the Saints you choose to pray to are actually in Heaven. The narrow path is narrow for a reason and who is going to decide on Earth who made into Heaven?

[@jmjaquinas7298]

Christ established an infallible Church which tells us definitively if someone is in Heaven

[@SneakyEmu]

@@jmjaquinas7298 really? Can you tell where Jesus said he was doing that?

[@amithrichard6979]

Yes. What does the church actually teach on this?

[@neehar6409]

@@jmjaquinas7298 an "infallible Church" which would go on to give their own philosophies more value than God's word?

[@Tannhauser45]

@@SneakyEmu Hello! Our Lord made it absolutely clear he was establishing one Church for all time in Matt. 16.18 grounded in St. Peter- "the gates of hell shall not prevail." Then Our Lord promised the Holy Spirit to the Apostles and their successors (bishops) "that he may abide with you forever" John 14.16-17. The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of truth and will teach the disciples "all things" Jn. 14.26 and again Jn. 16.13 the Holy Ghost will teach "all truth". The Holy Ghost descended on Pentecost. Hence it is proven from the very lips of the Son of God that he founded one Church for all time and that this Church would be guided by the Holy Ghost to preserve her from all error. St. Paul calls the Church the "pillar and ground of the truth." 1 Tim. 3.15. Thus the Church of God can never uphold error, nor bring in corruption, superstition or idolatry. I hope that was helpful. God bless!

[@threestrandsministry6319]

It is important to understand that we are asking the saints to pray for us, like I might ask another human to pray for me, but given they are of much higher standing doing so with great respect. We are NOT talking to the dead, because if you think asking a saint is talking to the dead then you are calling God a liar. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, and if Saints are in heaven then they are more alive than we are.