Debate on Christianity and voting

The governor of Massachusetts, Charlie Baker, publicly announced a couple months ago that he would not be voting in this Presidential election on moral grounds. Indeed, this election has caused many people in the church to question if and how Christians should vote. The Society for the Two Tasks held a debate on Saturday, November 5th at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. Click here to watch the debate. Speaking for Christian's getting engaged in politics and voting was Josh Good. Josh did his Master's degree at Harvard in Christianity and culture. He currently serves as team leader for the Faith, Work, and Economics Program for the Kern Foundation. Very knowledgeable about religion and politics, he has written for many publications such as the National Review, The Weekly Standard, The Washington Times, and Patheos. Josh covered important questions about principles of voting from a Christian perspective.
The other position is that Christians should not engage in earthly politics or vote, believing that it necessarily involves compromise that Jesus taught his followers to avoid. This view maintains that Jesus did not model involvement in earthly government, but rather prophetic witness. This view further argues that voting and political engagement actually defeats the church, which could have greater impact if it were to focus on service outside of government. This view was argued by Matthew Milioni, an excellent speaker and articulate advocate of the historic Christian position of nonviolence and Christians functioning as ambassadors to the nations of this world.

[@calvinpeterson9581]

Josh in his opening statement is merely espousing humanism. Matthew stuck with scripture and the principles that Christ laid out for his followers.

[@ryanmckelvey3606]

What struck me was Josh’s lack of scriptural support for his position.

[@slwn43]

Josh seems to be more confidence in the political system of America than he is in the life changing power of God through Jesus Christ.

[@jonm4342]

If I could give this comment 2 thumbs up I would

[@pdoyle3774]

Bravo Mr Milioni, very clear and easy to understand, you speak well for the Kingdom of God.

[@aaronjones3922]

Voting today= Do you want Satan’s minion to wear a red hat or a blue hat?

[@billerickson5604]

What sinner should we vote for ? Let the dead elect the dead.

[@wadelindsey9707]

This is a great discussion. I found Mr. Milioni's argument to be exceedingly coherent, and I admire his calm yet passionate defense of his position . In my mind he really exposes the root of the issue; "do we pledge our allegiance -and therefore place our trust -in Christ's Kingdom or in the kingdoms of our age?" To me Matthew's position was far and away more persuasive, then again, I tend to agree with a classical anabaptist worldview. Wondering if anyone leaning towards Christian participation in politics/voting found either argument convincing?

[@javabradley7521]

Matthew’s point towards the end about the church needing to focus on being the church is a powerful and thought provoking point. I think then the world might begin to see the difference between the kingdoms of this world and the kingdom of God.

[@sheldonkilmer41]

After watching this whole debate it seemed to me that Mr Good was functioning more as as a Christian political pundit than a debate panelist. Milioni was perhaps better prepared for the debate format and seemed to have a more consistent viewpoint.

[@nathanielbrown5302]

Very telling. I was kind of on the fence about Christians involving themselves in politics. But this solidifies for me the positions of Christ my king and the secular positions of many church leaders today. There was an alarm that went off for me, when Josh said something like, "The sociologists will back me up on this." As well as statements like "It just is." Without any appeal to what Scripture says. I think the final nail in the coffin was pitting the wisdom of Paul Marshall against the Spirit-inspired teaching of the Apostle Paul. We must turn to Scripture for answers, not the wisdom of this world.

[@jasonfriesen1876]

Good spirited debate. Both very intelligent men. Love Matthew’s bible answers. Unfortunately, Josh had no bible backbone and that’s what matters to me. Go bible or go home!

[@jasonfriesen1876]

“When my people…humble themselves, pray, turn from sin…then will I hear from heaven.” Josh himself said voting is less than 1%. Let the church be the church and we can win the world

[@cariwiebe5074]

I am a Canadian , watching this in 2022. I have always had the strong opinion that Christians need to vote. Pretty hard to keep that thought process based on this discussion.

[@slwn43]

Thanks to Matthew Milioni for his research and insight in this very important topic.

[@Partyrockk]

I wish all debates were like this. God bless these two brothers, and brother Finny. Brother Matthew clearly won this debate, but I'm bias with the Word of God ;) Anabaptists came out of their political seclusion in Germany one time to stand behind the politician that clearly, to them, was finally so Godly and doing things so much for Him, Adoph Hitler. When we vote, we compromise Christ. When we vote, we are putting faith in a political leader, a man. We are taking from Christ and giving to a man. We do this because we care about the world so much. Unyolk from the world, and simply be an ambassador for Christ's Kingdom. Why vote for a man when we have God, the Almighty, capable of anything. When we vote, it says we doubt the power of prayer. HE is our King. We pray to him. We do not put faith in a man. That is the broad path. As this debate ages, we see how deceived Josh was by the media. He didn't realize how deceived he was on issues that never took place, that he said were on the table if "the other guy" won. This division is of satan, and we can see how that deception worked on him. Even more reason to not take our satanically influenced ideas on "politics" and stand behind a politician. This, again, compromises Christ. Trust only in him.

[@cattleranger3697]

I would love to know what Josh thinks about his stance in this debate today??🤔🤔

[@Testifydesignfactory]

Aaaamen, well said!

[@jordanb.4133]

Could you direct me to a source for your claim about Anabaptists and Hitler?

[@ruthm1384]

Oh dear Lord, please open Josh's eyes. And dear sisters and brothers, on how we got to this point, read "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up" By David Bercot. It's a real eye opener! Prepare to weep, but also go forward stronger than ever as Christians if you truly want it. I'm praying for you all!

[@mshermanwest]

Pretty disappointed hearing this guy who should be a Conservative Christian yet he's ready to vote for Hillary. I watched this to side with you. To go against the anabaptist. But this puts me back to their side. A well-spoken lukewarm Evangelical. What happened to the conservative evangelicals that would vote for Trump? I would be considered an educated man myself. But sadly this is what having an education does to you. Now that we are in 2019. I wonder if this guy would think the same way. I wonder if he's happy what Trump has done for this country? It's Christians like him we don't need. I'd rather have a Christian that don't vote and stays seated and prays for the election to go in God's Will.

[@Livelife95ify]

That is where God has me .I Pray that Gods will be done over America .. God has not given me the green light to vote either Trump or biden. The word of God instructs me to pray and that's what I plan to do unless God says different.

[@billyd8084]

That’s what Holy testimonies do... they show forth the truth

[@joehamilton9715]

TRUE

[@mykhailopotrebko9667]

Matthew has done an awesome work 👍👍👍💪💪💪 Prepared, knowledgeable, calm with Scripture and keeping focus on the Founder of the church and Our King . Josh didn’t bother himself to prepare for this debate. It looks like he is not a Christian at all, just a pagan politician, sweet talker without any Scripture's passages. Matthew with his focus on Jesus shined over wordly ideas of people pleaser Josh.

[@kellye2013]

One master, nothing belongs to Caesar, Lord ordained authority and man made governments are NOT the same. Every institution of worldly rule over others is a "master/servant" role. We can ONLY have One master.... Why people feel they can throw out a single line of scripture and then twist some bs about how it it actually the opposite can only be explained by evil.

[@sheldonkilmer41]

[min 58] Matthew brings up an insightful comparison to Nazi Germany and the political polarization that lead to the choice between Communism and Fascism and how something similar is happening in the United States today. In this situation it becomes all the more important for the church to stand apart from these extremes and show a consistent example of what Jesus Kingdom looks like in comparison to earthly kingdoms and politics. Events in Charlottesville bring this challenge to the forefront. In a climate of hatred how does the church provide a witness that does not join the hatred on either side but shows a different and better way? When the church picks a political side it loses it's voice to speak to the other as they have now become the enemy.

[@salyluz6535]

Amen!!

[@lw97nilslinuswhitewaterweb15]

Well said!!!

[@dane3365]

Matthew Milinoi speaks like someone that have Salvation.

[@billyd8084]

No mistaking anointing

[@edwardcarlton]

Great job Matthew!

[@worshiponthewall4873]

So I’m in process of…idk how to describe it, but my eyes being opened to the Gospel of the kingdom… And what strikes me the most is Mr. Millioni’s arguments are birthed in Scripture whereas Mr. Good’s are justifications based on perceived outcomes and experiences. It reminds me of two temptations: that of Eve in the garden when Satan persuaded her to disobey in order to obtain a desirable result and that of Jesus in the wilderness when Satan attempted to persuade Him to bow in order to receive all the kingdoms of this world. We can’t allow our perception and expectation of a good or desirable outcome to justify disobedience. We can’t bow to Caesar even if we were to gain the whole world.

[@jwescape5876]

The gentleman that said he wanted a conversation not based on emotion seemed to be very emotional.

[@mykhailopotrebko9667]

👍💯

[@itrow9526]

One of these two debaters needs to get to know Jesus, (The Kingdom of Heaven is not a Democracy - Constitutional Republic).

[@billyd8084]

Amen Amen Amen

[@lw97nilslinuswhitewaterweb15]

Democracy was born to fail. In a Democracy people get to elect a leader and think he would do them good.

[@joehamilton9715]

Democracy is for slaves. Hitler profited a lot from democracy

[@eloiseramsey9276]

Matthew 22:21 say render that that belongs to caesar to caesar and that that belongs to God to God. Yes, has Christians involvement in politics helped the church?

[@derrickfengerarchives6915]

I don’t trust Josh’s moral reasoning. To think voting for Hillary is morally superior than voting for Trump… It feels like being a mosquito in a nudist colony. You don’t know where to begin.

[@dylanheidrich5243]

Thank you for helping me see the truth through the fog of our culture. Citizens of heaven don’t get distracted with earthly matters - and by doing so we’re objectively more influential in changing the culture.

[@clintonjameshuddleston-apo9385]

Plus, heaven is a hierarchial monarchy, not an egalitarian democracy

[@MBFModernHomesteading]

Enjoying this debate, but who is running the camera ;)

[@seantanner5722]

57:31 Love your guys content but this was kinda prophetic.

[@ezrajeremiah8631]

The Apostacia of 2 Thesselonians 2:3- the Restrainer being Principalities as per Romans 13- Shadows during 3-400 Constantine to Augustine and the Reformation

[@joshbeardprops6354]

What I'm hearing is that, "I don't want to fully live out what Christ's teachings are on how we live in our societies as citizens of His kingdom. Can't I do both since Capitalism has provided me so many nice trinkets and safety compared to the rest of the world?" Man cannot serve two masters. I appreciate both men's contribution to this topic but it's fairly clear where allegiances lie.

[@loveswaymama]

So many good and thoughtful things were said here and I kept waiting for Matthew to add what I see as at least one of the primary Biblical mandates and functions of The Church regarding these things---The call and command to pray, but he did not. I also relate to Mr. Kilmer's comment below - it seemed to me that Mr Good was functioning more as as a Christian political pundit - only my thought was a cheerleader.

[@rubenkluijver3798]

I could not even listen to Josh his arguments. The Spirit in me is so grieved when people choose earthly whisdom over the Kingdom of God. God judges by the fruits and the fruits are present in brother Matthew Milioni even though I don't know him I recognize the fruits of a brother in Christ. Patience, love, self control are so much more important then winning your discussion.

[@LinusWeber1997GER]

How can anyone be so deluded to think that being conformed to this world and voting was a solution? Josh is just your average evangelical. Maybe he will learn his lesson.

[@kernlee7]

There are many who claim to be under the umbrella of *Christianity* but not all of us believe the same things by far so that description is misleading. Every Believer should live their life by the Word of God as did our Messiah (Who WAS THE WORD made flesh) so that we aren't "conformed to this world" or "robbed by the philosophies of this world". There are only 2 kingdoms -- God's heavenly kingdom and the enemy's earthly one. Our Savior, our example, did the work of The Father's kingdom only.

[@kernlee7]

People think they can change the world by voting or through government, but the world had a sin problem not a political problem, and that can only be corrected through Jesus/Yeshua, which is why He came to live, die and resurrect for us.

[@sbeasley7585]

@@kernlee7 one day he will return to establish the kingdom he taught about. A political system that will run on righteousness and justice throughout all the nations.

[@joshuashepard583]

“Are you the king of the Jews?” “My Kingdom is NOT OF THIS EARTH.” Why don’t we just REPRESENT our ACTUAL Kingdom instead of playing politics with Satan’s. Which is a delusion anyway.

[@danielallgyer3836]

Josh seems more interesting in buttering up the American Government than participating in a serious debate about a controversial topic. Really appreciated what Matthew had to say, though. Is our job to make ours, and other's lives better; or is it about participating in God's Kingdom, changing lives, and saving souls?

[@1699stu]

Man 1:05:00 - 1:08:00 Absolutely on point.

[@landiscomputer]

[min55] Josh almost seems to be arguing futility of either candidate? (thus the process?)

[@lrye-xyz]

Whatever that moral state should be ..? Sounds relativistic to me

[@jordanb.4133]

This needs to happen again, but with someone on the other side who will actually engage in the biblical, systematic, exegetical discussion. A real proponent of Christian involvement in politics that will actually wade into the biblical discussion. Patrick Schreiner, Wayne Grudem, even Douglas Wilson maybe haha

[@landiscomputer]

[m19] Good point. And not only Romans 13 vs Sermon on the Mount, but the parenthetical Romans 13:1-6 vs Romans 12 & 13. ;-)

[@anniemouse111]

This guy espousing his desire to vote for such a vicious evil woman, I lost all respect for him and actually he proved in his own admission of that Matthew’s point on why Christians shouldn’t vote. Clearly the foundational issue here is faith. Do you REALLY believe he’s an actual King? Do you REALLY believe that changing a heart at a time can change the world rather than voting someone to change it. I will say this there are hundreds upon thousands of children that will be born now that Roe v Wade has been overturned due to states now banning it. That could not have happened without God’s approval.

[@jonm4342]

1:02:27 1 timothy 1:9-10 in defense of Matthew's position/ understanding. Not that we are exempt from obeying government, 1 peter2:13-15, but our standards for living are so far higher than what is required by law. Consider matt 5-7 "ye heard that it hath been said... but I say unto you"

[@landiscomputer]

[h1 10m] Josh: seems not to address Q? + Agrees voting isn't important (?)

[@billyd8084]

Who is “Q”???? If you had but a clue you wouldn’t “address “it???” Either

[@lw97nilslinuswhitewaterweb15]

@@billyd8084 Maybe he means Q Anon

[@kna9437]

Interesting debate

[@keepersfaith]

I just like many in many aspects your mentality. An I just wonder about your religion profession ' Is it possible to know?

[@earnestlycontendingforthef5332]

"Suffer affliction as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 4 No man that warreth, entangleth himself with **the affairs** of this life." 2 Tim 2:3-4 (Geneva Bible) And the "Affairs of state" are included. Thus wise Christians do not vote. As you may be voting against whom Almighty God has already decided to put into Government.

[@carljones8334]

In Daniel 4:17 The Bible teaches that God raises up the BASEST of men. Is that who you vote for, if not why not? Do we vote for the BASEST of men, or do we go contrary to God's Word and His will? If you can't go along with voting for the BASEST of men, then simply abstain from voting and pray that God will raise up the BASEST of men, as He says He will.

[@sorenrousseau]

Just another politician first, with a little Jesus on the side. Have mercy on us all Father.

[@1699stu]

Matthews position is exactly the attitude the remnant of Christ will have if the dominionists and Rome get to do what they are trying to accomplish.

[@Livelife95ify]

" Dr king Not Mr king" I loved that correction...... God uses Government to accomplish and enforce civil laws ... the church has & will affect government through prayer, voting, and serving in public office. This can be done without the church losing its Authority or identity in Christ. I do believe the American church needs to repent, and refocus our finances and commitment to wholeheartedly serving in our local communities in every way..

[@billyd8084]

He’s NO Dr. King he was a member of the “boule’ NOT a Holy society but an EVIL society. He was an extension of the “system” and when “they” were finished “using” him “they” eradicated him. But don’t believe me check it out for yourself.

[@joehamilton9715]

@@billyd8084 True

[@jonm4342]

Josh= smooth words

[@clintonjameshuddleston-apo9385]

I side with Matt. It should be clear that heaven is a monarchy, not a democracy

[@deedee5464]

I noticed a Starbucks coffee cup. Did you know that when you buy a Starbucks coffee it supports abortion?

[@Testifydesignfactory]

Now you are reaching...are you the devil's advocate? The Ceo's of the overwhelming majority of major Corporations, Manufacturers, Distributors, Farmers, Retailers and Producers of goods, are atheist and non christians. So what your point? Exactly! Clearly you are not a child of Christ Yeshua...I plead with you to surrender your life to him while you still have his breath in your longs!

[@mdcxh7768]

Watching this after trumps presidency is hilarious how now that row v wade is overturned and trumps economy was great

[@Vettel2011]

Hello Matthew. I used to share your position, but again, voting of itself is not the sin. In fact, we must make choices in life. Christ said whosoever is not with him is against him. Is it wrong to vote for Trump? He sadly is an adulterer - now he cannot return to his first wife anymore tho due to her having passed - and very proud, but he did do things in God's name. He did not start any wars either. Pray that he may repent and get saved. Like it or not, those who did not vote for him, knowingly or not, would help electing Biden.

[@Testifydesignfactory]

You need to be saved as well....Brother Matthew words of Wisdom went directly over your head...you my friend are a nominal christian, having never experienced the "NEW BIRTH" according to John 3: 3-5. Born Again christians are not governed by a wicked government created by wicked men. Those who are in Christ Yeshua are Governed by the Kingdom of Heaven, period!

[@Vettel2011]

@@Testifydesignfactory So because I disagree with your interpretation, I am not saved? Very interesting, dear sir. Judge righteously, dear friend. Your judgment is a worldly one, for you do not know me in real life. I respect your position, but I do not see it it his way. "Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." Romans 14:22

[@Vettel2011]

@@Testifydesignfactory If I was a worldly man, I would go back and call you unsaved as well for disagreeing. I do not. I can only say - thank you for your playlists! God bless

[@Vettel2011]

@@Testifydesignfactory I will pray over this matter. But thank you for the rebuke. We all need to be saved - Matthew 24:13. Salvation is a long process.

[@SiempreFlor]

Vote for Trump 2024 he didn’t make war he made peace with the whole world and supported Israel 100% we need a good leader in our country to allow and support Christmas to bring more Christmas to the Lord 🙏After all we’re in this country we benefit from this country , we need to be grateful to the Lord for this country he is giving us .

[@holzmann-]

if that is your conviction... I trust in Christ, Israel BTW is not a physical country

[@heaveningearth]

radical trust in God!

[@Testifydesignfactory]

Matthew I have the highest respect for you...certainly our Lord and Savior will continue to advance and elevate you!

[@Vettel2011]

Sure will. Thank you for the loving rebuke brother.

[@Testifydesignfactory]

Josh did not cover principle of voting from a biblical perspective, but his own personal perspective. For he did not use scripture to support his worldly and carnal position! I doubt seriously if He has experienced the "NEW BIRTH", according to John 3:3-5. He's the typical American Patriotic Evangelical, having only a form of godliness according to 2 Tim 3:5, who's passion is far greater for America and protecting the quality of life that it offers some, opposed to having a passion for Christ, His Kingdom and lost souls!

[@Vettel2011]

I doubt that too, brother.

[@Testifydesignfactory]

Ok, I'm convinced that Josh name is not written in the Lambs Book of Life. Matthew is out of his league....he's not qualified to debate this subject matter. The Spiritual Wisdom being spoken through Matthew is going completely over Josh's head. Josh is a nominal Christian. He is as blind regarding spiritual matters, as one who has never experienced King Yeshua and the New Birth...He is not a New Creature in Christ Yeshua!

[@Vettel2011]

I would agree overall, however, I do not believe that someone having the position that voting is permissible makes one lost. I think one can still be saved while disagreeing here. It is not a salvific matter. Plus, I do not think it is the very best idea to call the Mesiah "Yeshua"