Debate! Protestant & Roman Catholic Assumptions Deconstructed: Theotokos, Logoi -Jay Dyer

[@JayDyer]

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[@milkandcookies2367]

Can you send me a link to a vid you did or an article to why the Christian God is the only one that works. Like clearly stated, I’m just slow to be honest a lot of this philosophy language you used is new to me and kinda hard so it’s hard to follow along

[@saint-jiub]

18:15 - Pietism and hatred of debate in a post modern world. 1:05:50 - epistemic nihilist demands justification. 1:14:28 - Univocal vs analogical predication 1:24:48 - scripture as the 'word' of God? And 1:28:00 (ft. whiteboard!) on univocal vs analogical predication, word concept fallacy. 1:38:25 - branch theory 1:44:08 - RC Mary vs EO Mary. Immaculate conception and original sin. 2:02:54 - Protestants that deny ecclesiological heirarchy and the ambuguity of three tiered ecclesiology. 2:11:17 - how to critique pseudo-gnostic worldviews? 2:13:55 - RC vs EO vs Prot ecclesiology, certainty, dogma. 2:31:45 - theistic evolution (and st. Sophronius) 2:39:19 - phenomenal conservatism 2:44:18 - just worship monke and shutup 2:45:49 word salad and 2:49:00 poet 2:52:23 - how to respond to Lutheran that accuse EO of pelagianism that deny original sin? 2:56:01 - Neumann and doctrinal development theory 2:57:35 - Orthodox epistemology: paralogic and paradox (ft. whiteboard!), realism vs nominalism/anti-realism, one & many, reductionism, & atheist sky daddies 3:46:20 - what perogotives does a patriarch have over bishop? 3:49:55 - can converts bring rose colored glasses and bad habits that carryover into EO theology? 3:52:20 - EO and the process of healing trauma, vices and virtues 3:56:50 - universal bishops' authority 4:01:40 - is reality objective? 4:02:05 - debate me bro 4:02:33 - secular coherence metaverse theory? 4:03:10 - justin martyr thinking socrates was a christian? 4:04:12 - is asking intercession of the saints necessary? 4:05:11 - did plato read the OT? 4:05:56 - why do church fathers have errors in doctrines? + error vs heresy. 4:09:00 - thoughts on Augustine saying OT prophecies dont convince anyone except for christians?

[@billthebutcher4014]

Atheist woman at the beginning falsely assumes that human conditions for knowledge are something God must also experience, i.e. approaching of truth as a greater category through justification. God is Truth, so there's nothing to approach, and thus "justification" is a pointless term to describe omniscience.

[@andys3035]

Thanks for explaining, I was going to post on that woman. She was literally telling Jay to calm down on his own channel after not listening to the specific answers he was giving to her questions.

[@George-ur8ow]

Difficult to understand what she was asking, seemed to be "What is God's justification/reason/purpose...for doing anything, and what standard is it based on?"

[@tynytian]

She was asking if God had justified true beliefs, as if the way in which a being who knows everything at all times comes to know those things is the way that finite creatures do. Because God is the foundation or source of the structure and reason underlying reality itself, He always automatically knows all things. He doesn't discover things, ever. Discovery implies prior ignorance, which is contrary to omniscience.

[@George-ur8ow]

@@tynytian Good explanation of what she was trying to communicate. Well done.

[@jakemarfoglia]

@@tynytian Crackers in the pantry fallacy.

[@jonbkid3053]

My 13 yr old daughter said, "Chicken COVID" after we spoke of monkey pox and COVID. I said "don't give them any more ideas." She responded, "after COVID, you know they are gonna do fake alien attacks?" I just smiled. I'm raising her right.

[@IrishOrtodoxa]

All the callers to Jay from Ireland are completely insane. Just for the record there are also Orthodox Christian converts from Ireland, not everyone has completely lost it 🤦‍♂️🇮🇪☦️

[@raymondmurillo]

“It’s not that I’m mean it’s just that you don’t have a dad.” - Jay Dyer 😂

[@joshua_finch]

When does he say that?

[@raymondmurillo]

@@joshua_finch 37:34

[@missinterpretation4984]

I appreciate the debates because that’s how I came to orthodoxy. After being misled my whole life I didn’t want anymore one sided persuasive speakers, I wanted to see argument measured against argument straight up.

[@joshua_finch]

2:31:38 evolution 2:39:00 phenomenal conservatism 2:49:00 psychedelic irishman of evangelical ramble 2:52:00 Lutheran accusation of Pelagianism 2:57:27 justifying metalogic, universals 3:46:00 superchats

[@bebopbountyhead]

"I am an epistemological nihilist, so I don't know that I can be an epistemological nihilist."

[@Captnsouthpaw]

I don’t think anyone can have justified true beliefs, but it’s true that I’m an epistemological nihilist. These people are insane.

[@additedtochrist]

😂😂😂

[@TheAncientLight]

Great content as always ☦️

[@kyleelsbernd7566]

Jay, you clarified in words what I've always known. The transcendent argument in particular was the missing piece for me. Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge.

[@miroslavmirchev4468]

God bless you, dear Jay! May he make you an weapon for spreading the teachings of Christ and destroying the devil's fables.

[@ryanseahawk1010]

Pride is the cloak of shame = the non debaters, piety & virtue signalers are ashamed of themselves.

[@cyriljorge986]

As a philosopher, it's sad to see that early woman is hopelessly out of depth. There *are* some strong female philosophers in the modern era. Not on Twitter. EDIT: also the modal question is not relevant given Orthodox paradigmatic considerations, but it's a good question in other contexts, questioning Kant, etc

[@Critical_Corey]

Dammit Jay, I love you, God Bless brother, great stream! ☦

[@dietsodalite3716]

Excellent high quality content from Jay as always. Nice to see Theosis Pilgrim make it on the stream 💯💯

[@commonsense1527]

Hello Jay, would there be a problem with the filioque, from an Orthodox perspective, if it is taken to mean that the Spirit originates and proceeds from the Father through the Son, rather than meaning that the Spirit originates from both the Father and Son?

[@jakemarfoglia]

The Slam Poets are really trying to turn this into a beat coffee shop lately

[@jakemarfoglia]

We should start finger snapping after every good debate

[@LightOfAllMankind]

Yo Jay, I’d love to see you do a critical response on a KZbin video called Eastern Orthodoxy: An Evangelical Assessment - by Michael Reeves

[@ourdictatorship]

I thought for a long time that Iago from Shakespeare's Othello was the most wicked character in fiction (fiction that I've read, at least), but upon reading 1984 again, it's indeed Winston - who not only is evil unto himself, but a perfectly written icon of the soul-destroying culture he represents - who is absolute, pure and disturbingly real in his evil.

[@mattstiglic]

I like that argument that Protestants turn the Bible itself into an idol, or some fourth person of the godhead.

[@silentsentinel1]

2:51:03 hard to say what’s funnier, the content or Jay’s facial expression

[@RollOut82]

57:47 & 59:55 (End 1:05:40) - The Role/Importance of Debate 1:05:51 (End 1:11:37 & 1:14:27) - Epistemic Nihilist Questions the Divine Mind & Justified True Belief 1:14:28 (End 1:24:11) - Analogy & Divine Mind 1:27:56 (End 1:38:10) - Analogy/Predication - Slowboy Whiteboard Breakdown! 1:38:10 (End 1:43:30) - The Physical Church - Branch Theory Presupposition 1:44:07 (End 1:53:48) - Immaculate Conception 2:13:55 (End 2:31:13) - Papal Epistemic Inadequacy 2:31:38 (End 2:39:18) - Death: Natural Theology & Theistic Evolution 2:39:18 (End 2:48:09) - Phenomenal Conservatism & Intuitive Reasoning 2:52:25 (End 2:55:59) - Original Sin & Pelagianism 2:57:31 (End 3:36:00 & 3:36:12) - Math, Logic & God, Metalogic, Paradoxes, & the Aeon

[@μιμηταὶτοῦθεοῦ]

Starts 17:56

[@Vanhyo]

1:05:43 that crazy, desponding & God-opposing woman calls again.

[@jakemarfoglia]

Thought her voice sounded familiar

[@Vanhyo]

@@jakemarfoglia yeah, its the crazy one that comes with a turbo

[@Azrael454]

If you take a philosophical debate deep enough it always leads to sky daddy lol

[@ourdictatorship]

1:15:00 You could also go with something similar to Gordon Clark, in specific that the Person of the Son **is** the Logic of God. I don't go with that answer, but it is one that has been given in presup before by Van Til's primary opponent.

[@GlobeHackers]

Do you have a commentary on Aldous Huxley’s 1945 book, The Perennial Philosophy or any conversation with Christian Perennial people? You've got a lot of content and things pop into my mind that I'd like to hear your views on.

[@jakemarfoglia]

There’s some great refutation of perennialism in open forums, I would also watch the Dyer debates with Scott Smith I believe, the Gnostic Christian, and also the one with the Freemason / new age Gnostic guy, can’t think of his name. Was utterly retarded though. Also the Boglord Dave debate covers overlapping topics even though he is more European Pagan instead of Gnostic, it’s the same essential argument. That’s a fairly cordial debate too

[@GlobeHackers]

@@jakemarfoglia Thanks so much for your help. I look forward to auditing those encounters. Best.

[@mountainwalk]

Weird argument from the lady at the beginning. Good for you guys to point out that its an absurd question, a category error. Half expected her to say something like A = not A next. Even the trolling was low tier! Shameful.

[@serhiisietrin9314]

How to get onto the discord channel?

[@serhiisietrin9314]

@Slowboy Whiteboard it gets me to some kind of Protestant server and a Catholic one. Jay's server is nowhere to be seen

[@serhiisietrin9314]

@Slowboy Whiteboard I am in Georgia so I doubt that it was blocked

[@serhiisietrin9314]

@Slowboy Whiteboard thanks

[@GriffN999]

Would you mind sharing? I was given a link to a different channel as well

[@missinterpretation4984]

I want Jay to debate Gavin Ortlund because he annoys me and I think Jay would expose his fake syrupy style. So that’s probably a bad motive on my part. I apologize, but still want to see it.

[@silentsentinel1]

I personally don't care enough about Ortlund to push for such a debate, but I would be interested to see one with Jason Jorjani. I don't know that it would actually get anywhere, but the entertainment factor for those of us familiar with both of their works would be elevated for sure.

[@Jimmy-iy9pl]

I like Ortlund a lot. But I'm a Protestant, so that's to be expected. I do see what you're saying about his attitude though, I'm put off with it at times as well. I think he's too nice to Roman Catholics and that affects the quality of his responses to them.

[@TheMhouk2]

he's also completely disingenuous with the church fathers. He unironically believes St Cyril believes in sola scriptura, despite teaching unwritten traditions as authoritative in his catechism.

[@nox567]

What is Father Deacon's full name. I'd like to research his work

[@Cobruh_Commander]

Father Deacon Dr. Ananias Erik Sorem. Full title and name!

[@danielcalisthenics1339]

2 Corinthians 10:15 says something different than what Fr. Deacon Ananias said. Did he misspeak?

[@baskatz3443]

Yeah he misspoke. It’s 2 Corinthians 10:5

[@isayoriental.2124]

Is any Orthodox Christian reading this question 100% convinced that the Eastern Orthodox church is the true church, or are you just operating off of an educated guess? If you are 100% convinced, how does someone become that way? I'm too dumb for all the really deep, back-and-forth arguments. Is there a prayer I can say or a simple book from the Holy Fathers that will 100% convince me BEFORE joining a church? I want to know the truth but am too dumb to figure it out with my intellect. When I say 100% convinced, I mean that you know it as well as you know that you're conscious.

[@isayoriental.2124]

​@@LadyMaria Thanks for the response. That may help. I've gotten to the point that whenever I think I'm definitely right about something, I soon after think that there's a skeptic somewhere, much smarter or trickier than I, that could blow up my argument. Do you think that there are any smart-boy skeptics out there that could dismantle everything you've said and smash it into dust? This is why I think I need God to just put the definitive knowledge in my mind (however He would do that, I don't know) that the Eastern Orthodox church is true. It would mean that both Christianity and Eastern Orthodoxy are true. I ask God to "tell me which church I ought to join" a good amount, and I don't think He's clearly done this, which, I have to admit, kind of sucks. It makes me think that all this religion stuff may just be a bunch of hooey. Here are three things that kind of bother me with Christianity: 1. Why doesn't God make it clearer which church is true? You've laid out all the arguments above, but, come on, humans have spent millennia arguing about it, it's not clear, especially to the dumb idiot like me. 2. Free will doesn't make sense. I believe in it, but it's not logical in my view. It may exist and be super-logical, but this is an assumption. Having said that, I think that Zeno's Paradox shows that existence doesn't make sense, and we do exist, so free will can exist and not make sense to the wee human mind. 3. Eternal Hell seems like too much. I'm not God, so I can only say what the eternality of Hell seems like, and it seems to me like some punishment (if free will is real) should occur, but eternal Hell seems like too much. Again though, I only have a wee human mind. Now, of course, if Eastern Orthodoxy is true, and free will is real, and eternal Hell is real, that's just how it is, and you have to accept it. I'm just saying that there are some head-scratchers here. I really just want God to tell me definitively what is true and tell everyone definitively what is true (at least to the people who want to know) to the point where no g*ay-boy skeptic can come along and convince us of something else. I'm a dumb, idiot, moron sheep. I think I need definitive guidance from God.

[@alkisfragoulidis7441]

why cut so ...???

[@idleH4nd5]

I don't think stating the the Bible is the word of the Lord is the same thing as saying that the Bible is Jesus himself. If I say that this video is the word of Jay Dyer et. al. that isn't to say that this video is Jay Dyer et. al.

[@jakemarfoglia]

You’re not incorrect, but the deeper problem is that Protestants claim there is a “clear meaning” to the text that we should all agree on. However there’s no epistemic standard to adjudicate between different interpretations. No binding authority. This quandary is impossible to solve without the Church.

[@idleH4nd5]

@@jakemarfoglia thanks. You raise some interesting points. I'm not familiar with the "clear meaning" idea. I heard the following verse today and was wondering what you make of it. Psalm 119:105 Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.

[@jakemarfoglia]

@@idleH4nd5 Holy Scripture is indeed a lamp for our feet and a light for our path. Orthodoxy confirms this 1000%, so much that we actually canonized the Bible through the guidance of Holy Spirit. We don't have a Hegelian dialectic like the West does about Scripture. We can affirm that it is the primary form of Revelation, truth, and guidance, while still affirming that private interpretation doesn't have any epistemic basis for forming doctrine. Does this make sense? Maybe an easier way to say it is like this: God can speak through scripture to give anyone light, guidance, and a "lamp to their path". But when doctrinal issues or disagreements get raised, the "right of private interpretation" is wholly insufficient to create objective, normative, binding interpretations. Therefore it's impossible to avoid submitting to the Church while maintaining a coherent epistemic framework.

[@marilynbaker2231]

🎶🎶🎶😎🎶😎🎶🎹💛🎶

[@theoskeptomai2535]

I am not convinced in the existence of any god for I have never encountered _any_ credible evidence, including _any_ sound argument, that suggests such an existence. Therefore, I will suspend any acknowledgement as to the existence of a god _until_ such evidence or argument is introduced. Am I not rationally justified in my position?

[@jakemarfoglia]

@Caleb Dekker “I want some Butter Pecan ice cream right now, therefore God is false. “ Same basic argument.

[@tynytian]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Also, phrases like "credible evidence" are ambiguous, as what one finds credible varies between people. Some are more skeptical than others.

[@GeorgeLiavas]

watch Jay and dillahunty debate.... Even your statement already presupposed a host of things you haven't justified...

[@mattstiglic]

What is your evidentiary criteria?