Debate: Save Our Private Schools! | Intelligence Squared

Britain has an education system that perpetuates inequality. Seven per cent of its children go to private schools and yet these institutions receive around three times the funding per student as the average state school. Privately educated people then go on to dominate our elite institutions. They are seven times as likely to win a place at Oxford and Cambridge universities as their state-educated peers, and they make up 65 per cent of senior judges and 29 per cent of members of parliament. Private schools foster a cycle of privilege with the result that Britain has one of the lowest rates of social mobility in the developed world. So Labour leader Keir Starmer’s proposal to impose VAT on private school fees must surely be welcomed. The estimated £1.3 billion a year the tax would raise would be used to fund more teachers and provide mental health counselling in the state sector. Doubtless some parents would no longer be able to afford the higher fees but there is capacity within the state system to accommodate the fall-out. Who could possibly object to a tax that would benefit the majority of Britain’s schoolchildren?
Those who believe in aspiration, that’s who, argue the champions of private schools. People like Prime Minister Rishi Sunak’s parents, who, as he has explained, were not wealthy or privileged but who worked hard so that they could send their son to one of this country’s top independent schools. Removing the tax breaks on private schools would amount to class war and punish parents who are prepared to make sacrifices to give their children the best start in life. Because, let’s be honest, it won’t be the one per cent who will be affected by this change, but the children of the ‘squeezed middle’ and the less well off who rely on bursaries and scholarships to access private education - many of whom these schools may no longer be able to support under Labour’s proposals.
Should private schools continue to enjoy their tax advantages or not?
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[@cathyhough8282]

I think the intelligence of our mp's shows that private education does not produce intelligent people

[@user-vc7sn6oy3j]

Don't worry, we have Angela Rayner!

[@ronaldsimpson8890]

You just have to look at the Eton mess.

[@liamwildman2846]

Because it’s mostly genetic.

[@maxpowerii7368]

@@user-vc7sn6oy3j I’m no fan of Rayner but it’s pretty funny how, out of all the private school toff MPs, you chose to go after one of the few working class single mums in Parliament. But I wouldn’t want to suggest your a classist bigot or anything like…

[@ItsDeffoChris]

I think it depends, it is very hard to be totally foolish and take power. It at the least requires intelligence enough to sway public opinion. Boris was a schemer and carefully crafted his image of buffoonery. He made foolish and risk-taking gambles but there were machinations happening behind the scenes. I think the same for many many MPs, they have cold hard calculations and politicking behind scenes, but the public face they operate is very different.

[@johnpearson-phillips7464]

I spent almost 40 years as a teacher, retiring as a senior manager in a state school. I started working at a social priority school in the east end of London and in my career also worked at a top flight boarding school. The issue in the debate really is about separating those with money (7%) and those with less (93%). The two private schools I worked in were awash with money (really, they were) and all of the state schools I worked in were compromised on every level; constant lack of funding, inability to recruit, poor resources, decrepit buildings: I guess many of you know the rest. The opportunities private school children enjoyed hugely eclipsed those in the state sector. The bottom line is all about a lack of funding to the state sector, and those in government who keep it that way. Changes in VAT as this debate explores will have little impact: its about overall funding. I'll leave you with this thought: one of the private schools I worked in decorated the ceiling in a large room with one millions pounds worth of gold leaf - really!

[@gardenroom64]

Not only resources but who you sit in the classroom with. Too much bad behaviour in state schools, holding any education back.

[@PooeyBum11]

In your comment you mention that state schools are already underfunded so getting rid of private schools would only make that problem worse as now the government needs to fund an additional 7% of kids who were previously funded privately. So that means the real question is…are you willing to make everyone worse off just to ensure things are more equal. The answer to that question is the fundamental problem with socialism. Making everyone worse off while also increasing state control all in the name of supposed fairness. Socialism is inherently a bitter political movement driven by destructive envy by people who are willing to hurt themselves in order to hurt the rich more. The 93% are better funded if state schools exist. The 7% are better educated with private money that parents are willing to pay to help their children. We should not prevent people from helping their children get a better education if it has no negative impact on anyone else. That is an attempt to hold other people back to our level instead of trying to figure out ways to raise ourselves up higher. It is deeply immoral and do not kid yourself into thinking your argument is based on compassion when it’s really just bitter envy.

[@MRW515]

Then as a teacher, why didn't you teach the kids in the state school how to get rich?

[@neilshirley]

How dare you come here with your facts and experience!

[@Yossarian1179]

That moderator really likes the sound of his own voice. Very private school.

[@pgohearn]

Video starts at 40:20

[@user-wo8ry7rg4y]

Agreed, an incredible and informative response to such a ludicrous notion.

[@Frohicky1]

Do not listen to this false prophet

[@MrSupercampeao]

@@user-wo8ry7rg4yjealous, badly argued, rabid prejudice. Great 👍

[@johnbryson1019]

As I understand it, Finland has little private education but their education system is regarded as world-class. In Germany the private sector is not regarded as particuarily significant.

[@OneTrueScotsman]

I think the education system, as a whole, needs a radical redesign. I also think that while public schools exist as an option to send posh kids to, there won't be enough pressure to improve state schools, as much as they desperately need.

[@The_Giant_Lemon]

The first speakers claims about collaboration between state and private sector is, in my experience, talking a load of bollocks. I’ve not seen anything in my career as a teacher of private schools collaborating with the state sector, but neither would I wish it. I wouldn’t want lessons from private school teachers on how to teach. I likely have been challenged far more by my work in the state sector and come out of that a better teacher for it. This idea that the state sector should be learning from private schools is just nonsense. They get good results because they have students coming in who come from wealthy backgrounds, have the resources to teach in very small groups and can throw good money at failing students with tuition (plus kick them out if they’re not performing well - every county seems to have the private school that accepts the academic rejects from the other ones). It’s a clear expression of money being able to buy advantages. As much as I’d like independent schools not to exist, I view it as illiberal for the government to ban them, but there is no need to treat them like a charitable organisation and subsidise their operation through not taxing them. And as to any charitable work they might take up… why should they get to decide where this subsidy money is spent? The government, the (in principle) democratic representatives of the people should decide how that money is utilised to the benefit of the people… oh that’s called taxing them appropriately and then giving the money to the state sector rather than allowing the private schools to donate 0.1% of their income, dodge tax and then feel all warm and fuzzy about how nice they’re being to the poor kids down the road.

[@Unknown-ov2kz]

I'm someone who's currently kind of going to a private school, and I'd explain my reasoning for why I don't want it to be taken over by the government, but it's mostly out of fear (which I guess is stupid if we were to have a responsible and reasonable government). I was failed by school. Completely failed. My primary head teacher threatened to lock a kid (that was between the ages of 6 and 9) with Down's Syndrome, in a cupboard. She covered up an autistic kid being locked in a cupboard by another teacher. She, along with 3 other adults (of which, I'm sure at least one of them, if not all of them, didn't have any training in restraining), restrained me on the ground because I didn't feel safe at that school with them, and wanted to go home with my mum (she had literally just walked out, it wasn't like I decided to go home in the middle of the day). I was 9 at the time, and a year after that incident I had a breakdown and didn't want to live. Later after that, she referred my family to social services because how dare my parents have one autistic child (me), and one child with Tourette's (my brother), and that my brother was making it up and it was "learnt behaviour" from me [the "how dare" part is sarcasm, if that wasn't obvious]. I don't tic, but apparently they didn't notice that, and it was his crying into school everyday that he "learnt" from me. Social services didn't even bother to investigate my family because it the claim was so ridiculous. She did so much horrendous and awful things, half of which I have blocked out, but I think you get the point. This school was the "good" school (Ofsted gave it an "excellent" rating and completely ignore my mum's complaints about the school despite the obvious abuse) in the area for SEN kids, so I don't dare to imagine the bad ones. There are no other school choices for someone like me, because I don't fit into special needs schools, either. I was told the entire time in primary school that I was "too clever" to get an EHCP (educational health care plan). Got to secondary, my mum went straight to county and I got an EHCP straight away. None of the money for the EHCP ever went to me, though, while I was at that secondary (so for example, they claimed I had a personal one-to-one in almost every lesson, of which I never did, but on the breaks I got from having dropped a few subjects, I had a one-to-two with someone who wasn't even in my year). By a term or two at being at that school, I school refused. The schools I had been to had been mainstream public schools (I didn't get into a Grammar school because I couldn't pass my 11+ because my processing speed is in the bottom 1% of the country, however, my non-verbal reasoning is in the top 1% of the country - another reason that school failed me). I wanted to learn, and I am, despite my many learning disabilities and difficulties, very academic. My family are not rich either, and up until the recent cuts the government have made, my parents were on tax breaks (despite both working full-time-ish, as well as being carers for both me and my siblings (I'm legally an adult but am still at school because the exam centres (I have to go private because they're so difficult for this) have messed up my exams (like giving me a laptop that didn't have Windows activated on it, so I had to sort that out)). After fighting a lot with county, did I finally get a private school on my EHCP (this is why I say it's kind of private because the government do fund it, but it's through my EHCP, and without my EHCP they wouldn't fund it, so I am very lucky in that respect). I've changed multiple private schools since then but the one thing that has worked for me in education is the alternative aspect of it. My current school I have been with for over 4 years now. It is very close to perfect, and I love it. My younger siblings also go there. What has worked for me is the alternative parts of the school. It has worked for all the private schools I have been to (although those alternative things were lost when they got influenced by mainstream schools and whatnot because of money etc - it's a long story). For example of the amazing alternative things that have worked, the lack of school uniform, the lack of authority demands (so for example schools typically demand that teachers are called their surnames after a title, Mr, Miss, Mrs, Mx, etc, without any mutual equivalent respect for the students. I find that ridiculous because I would only see someone with more authority to me if they earn it by the two-way street of respect (part of this may be trauma from the headteacher, but another part of this is just looking at our government and thinking that Sunak may have more authority in some sense, but he doesn't deserve it). My current school doesn't demand the use of titles and surnames, and instead the students call them by their first name, like they call their students by the students' first names. Even my teacher who has a PhD from Cambridge University, introduces herself with her first name, and I'd argue that if any teacher had any right to instant authority demands, teachers with PhDs could. She is my favourite teacher I have ever had, and I have never respected someone in which the relationship is student-teacher that much before her). My school doesn't have a hissy fit if I'm a bit late for school, or if I say to them "one sec, I need the bathroom, I'd be right back", or "let me just fill up my water bottle" (and I don't need permission to drink water in class, which I have experienced at mainstream school). They are relaxed about handing in homework (I have a lot going on - for example, the past few years I have lost family members, a friend, had 2 surgeries, and I suffer from chronic fatigue, chronic pain, among other things), and they've always said to me "do it if you find some time and can, but don't worry if you cannot". I have never needed to have my mum sign a letter to explain why I cannot do my homework. I have never felt so much respect from a school, and I reciprocate that and completely respect them too. My fear for them is that if they were controlled by the government more so, they'd lose everything that works for me. That being said, if the school system were to follow more examples like Finland's, Sweden's etc, even though they're not perfect, I'd argue against private schools, but until we can change the system, for someone like me, it's the only way I can receive an education.

[@pinco40]

As a now retired teacher who had a whole career in the state system, I agree 💯% with everything you said!

[@jujutrini8412]

👏👏👏

[@Brokout]

Well said Ash

[@richardkillin7233]

What were the results in the end?...... This only affects people like me. Im a lorry driver and my kids go to private. I sacrifice alot as i dont believe in the state education system, thats the problem. Id love a bigger house, ski holidays etc. i dont have any if that. I spend my money on my childrens education to give them a great start in life as the state doesnt want our kids to be educated. This country is fucked and unfortunately most of you are too blinkered to see it. Bring state education to a point where there is no need for private. Pull up education, not dumb it down. 20%simply makes it more for the elites. They will laugh at 20% as they pay hardly any tax now. I on the other hand am paying for education twice. Through my taxes and to the actual school, it takes away my children's chances and let's the elites carry on. This country does not want a middle class. The elites are running away with it and the middle class are now the working class..... Here is a novel idea. Stop wasting billions on a war that doesn't involve us and spend it on state education. Give the children of this country a fighting chance. Government does not care about the common man. It's as simple as that.

[@timghilks7666]

Ash Sarkar! Absolutely kills it. Brought tears to my eyes, I can only hope that someone in the labour leadership sees this

[@hjhw100]

3 impassionate speakers and a paywall to find the result. Shocking.

[@jlewis2890]

Having been to both private and state education I think private should be abolished it’s a privilege factory and that’s all

[@andrewharris3900]

And if you can’t have the privilege then no one else should either? God forbid someone wants to privilege their children with more education opportunities.

[@jlewis2890]

@@andrewharris3900 I didn’t get any privilege from it because I was a working class person in a private school so I was I never made it

[@midlandgeordie]

Charity should not be used as an excuse to give some students a better education than the majority. Charity should be used to pay for education where there is nothing available!!!

[@francesboardman8584]

The national autistic society and Barnardos run residential private schools for children with severe autism.

[@henryburton6529]

100% Rich people saying "we want a discount" is insane.

[@RLeaguer_Saint]

I love Ash Sarkar, and her comments here are compelling and inarguable, and I follow and agree with almost everything she says. But on this issue, I'm conflicted. Not on the topic of the debate - that seems trivially obvious: of course it's immoral and obscene that the wealthy should be hiding behind charity status to avoid paying taxes for the unearned and undeserved privilege they bestow on the education of their offspring. However, Ash's comments implicitly rightly spoke right past this, and more directly at what should have been the topic of debate: should private schools exist at all. As a proud child of a blacklisted trade union leader, I was intimately familiar with poverty, and only through the transformative effect of education, did I get to experience Oxbridge, as did my children after me. Not because of wealth, but because of education were my circumstances transformed. However, my children's education was different: they were able to benefit from private schools, because my education allowed me to achieve escape velocity. As both a parent, and now, through a career change into teaching in the state education system, I have seen the stark difference between private and state-funded education. The state system, thanks to years of neglect, is on its knees - something I now witness on a daily basis. I would love to agree with Ash's sentiment, that the diversity in state schools engenders resilience and more creative, broad-minded thinking, but I lament the fact that my experience tells me otherwise. The education my children received during the years they attended private education far surpassed that which they received during the years they attended state school. I would love to romanticise that socioeconomic challenge led to insights denied the students in indepedent schools, but sadly, that just isn't true. So, the question is, if that isn't available for all, should it be available for one? Here is where I then bring in my experience as state school teacher: I see the apathy of students, typically directly traceable to that of their parents. I see the wasteful disdain students have for learning, and have to wonder whether simply equating access of the whole system would lead to the equating of opportunity and engagement, and I frankly doubt it. Society is too complex for quick fixes. I think independent schools have their place, and their access should be offset to enable a much broader proportion of society to experience and benefit from this. But it also seems that we value what we pay for, and when it is free, we treat it as if it's value is the same as what we paid for it. The complacency with which education is discarded in first world countries, compared to third-world countries where the likelihood of receiving education for girls in some countries is dependent on how far they have to walk for water, is shamefully wasteful. Having worked in a grammar school, I think this offers the best middle ground: work hard to gain entry, and then value your place, that was earned based on ability, and not (at least directly) on wealth. Until education is valued by all, I can't see a way of avoiding some way of separating those who value, and those who don't value education.

[@Unknown-ov2kz]

I take a completely different stance but I think I have similar principles to you, but feel you haven't seen some points. I was failed by the school system because for someone who is academic but also SEN with learning disabilities, it get's very complicated and there are basically no place for someone like me in the mainstream schools. I completely disagree with grammar schools. I live in an area where there are a lot of grammar schools, and only the rich get in unless you're super gifted with no difficulties. The rich get in because they're tutored a lot, which is something that students from poorer backgrounds aren't offered. I would guess that about 1/50 people who get into the grammar schools, get in because of natural talent rather than being gifted. This results with the rich getting into the school, and the school ends up with a lot of money since that's what they can raise (because the families are wealthy). I don't respect mainstream schools because at the moment I find the whole system insane, and it's the culture around it. Having to ask for permission to drink while in class (even though your bag is by your feet which has the water bottle), or having to ask to go to the bathroom, or having to ask for permission to take off your blazer is what is wrong with schools. The imprisonment from it is insane, and people don't realise just how backwards it is. We shouldn't be asking to go to the bathroom, we should be stating "hey, I need the bathroom, I'll be right back" kind of thing. We should be creating a culture where that is acceptable, and if someone does that to "get out of class", we should be asking why they want to get out of class. The incentive for education is completely diabolical, because students are forced to give authority to teachers that I'd argue haven't earnt that authority. There's a lack of mutual respect, and it further fuels the lack of want for an education. I do accept that teachers are underpaid. I also argue that teachers are undertrained (the minimal requirement for teachers to qualify as a teacher is horrifying if you think that teachers are helping educate the future). I think students need more freedoms from an early age. There needs to be less pressure over homework, no school uniforms (and if you argue that it helps stop bullying, we should be dealing with the bullying head-on, not avoiding it, because if it's a matter of inequality in terms of finance then that says that there's a problem with minimal pay). We need to reduce how long school is and expand on the culture of clubs which would help inspire students. We also need to remodel the whole exam system because it's so messed up. (While not perfect, I recommend looking at Finland's education system for inspiration.) So you can understand a bit of why my perspective is the way it is: By the way, I'm autistic, I have a slow processing speed (my information processing is in the bottom 1% which is why I couldn't get into a grammar school), however my non-verbal reasoning is in the top 1% of the country. My maths abilities is also in the top 1%, while my visual and auditory processing speed is in the bottom 10%. My spelling is also very poor and barely scrapes into the average. I also have ADHD, hEDS (with chronic pain and chronic fatigue), scoliosis, over 20 allergies, dyslexia, dysgraphia, pragmatic language disorder, PDA, sensory issues, Irlen Syndrome, verbal dyspraxia, among many things that probably are undiagnosed.

[@RLeaguer_Saint]

The grammar school isn't a one size fits all. It's by far not the only component required of a complex system. But it has its place. I appreciate the points you make regarding regimentation in schools, but these are points often made by people who have never been a teacher (I too would have made the same points before teaching). Try standing in front of 32 kids, of which just a handful of whom are determined not to learn, and you'll see how difficult it is to teach any of them. Or try teaching, in the same class, Oxbridge potential kids, with kids who can barely read - no teacher can achieve that differentiation in a single class, without compromising somewhere. Only now, having been in these situations, do I understand how difficult behaviour management is, how intractable some of the barriers to learning are, and how a one-size-fits-all approach is not applicable to education. I completely agree with how the wealthy start to dominate grammar schools through tutoring, and that desperately needs fixing, but it doesn't undermine the whole concept in my mind. I lived in Switzerland for several years, and I highly recommend their stystem: from age 14, the top 20%, who are academically gifted have a guaranteed place in any Swiss univesity, assuming they maintain their grades until 18; the next 60% go into a (highly respected) trade route, but can go back into the academic track if they later show aptitude/interest in doing so; the bottom 20% get the support they need. All 3 tracks are equally valued, and none are stigmatised, and there is fluidity between them. In this way, you have 3 separate schools, but in 1 building. In lieu of that in the UK, in my view, separate schools is the way to go@@Unknown-ov2kz

[@jeankap]

​@@Unknown-ov2kzthey barely mentioned SEN kids in this debate, and they didn't mention at all the crushing disciplinarian approach of state schools. We speak to other parents - never mind asking to be allowed a drink, we have friends whose kids were locked in a room alone as punishment for multiple hours for an off colour joke. This is why, SEN aside, the independent sector also caters for alternative approaches. And these are not the schools ordering £1m murals on their dining hall ceilings, but ones just scraping by in order to try and provide an alternative model to widespread disciplinarian education fit for the 19th century. Also the wealthy people paying for eaton will not care about an extra few £k per year, but the sen and alternative sector will be bombed out.

[@oitoitoi1]

Fraser Nelson? Was a waitrose parsnip not available?

[@brandmanager4595]

Only came to listen to Ash Sarkar

[@user-vc7sn6oy3j]

You must be a bot.

[@StuartAtkinson4467]

@@user-vc7sn6oy3j ..says literal user-vc7sn6oy3j...

[@RonaldReagan84]

@@user-vc7sn6oy3jEver take a look in the mirror buddy?

[@JordanJLyon]

@@user-vc7sn6oy3j sounds like a bot reply to me

[@roberthorne9597]

@@user-vc7sn6oy3j username comparison indicates you are the bot. *beeep boop bbbeeep*

[@PabloHernandez-im7pn]

So the audience was mostly privately educated or the other way around?

[@WhuttaNerd]

Ash completely nailed it! Well said.

[@PooeyBum11]

She made no points what are you talking about? She had one point “life isn’t fair” and spent her entire talk making the same point over and over as if it makes it more powerful. The opposing argument is that private schools benefit non-private students and cause no harm. It literally increases funding to state schools by saying I will pay for my own child so the gov can afford to spend more money on someone else’s. She never addressed that argument which is the main argument. All her yapping about fairness means nothing if her policy will literally hurt the kids she’s claiming to care about. It just comes across as her not actually caring about the kids at all. She doesn’t care if her policy will hurt working class children, all she cares about is that it will hurt rich children more. Her politics is entirely spite based. Bitter envy aimed at destroying the people she demonises with no care about the negative impact to society. This is why people look at socialists as naive children who never learned responsibility, it’s literally the political view of a child having a tantrum.

[@jongalloway726]

she made no valid points other than the "rich not getting away with it", completely ignoring the point that it's not just the rich who go to private schools.

[@MrRailjunkie]

@@PooeyBum11 Can you you actually make some interesting valid arguments against socialism instead of the same old boring line of attack of it being the politics of envy?

[@gbrown9694]

This isn't always about privilege. I had to take my son out of an inadequate state school and send him private because the school was completely inadequate. So much so that they ended up closing it. Why should I pay VAT when it is the government who are failing to provide adequate schools.

[@JohnJohn-cu7nk]

Why should parents pay vat on private schools . If they are forced to, they should get a reinbursement on their tax bill ,for their contribution to state schools .

[@maxpowerii7368]

Why should the taxpayer subsidise private schools that most of the population is excluded from? Ridiculous argument. And no you don’t get an opt-out from taxes for not using services. What next you don’t want to pay for certain roads you don’t drive on? Don’t be silly.

[@aidandesilva]

Why should anyone pay VAT on anything? Parents are paying for a higher quality service. Should we have VAT savings on private healthcare? How about first class travel? These are all optional extras. Like any service, if public schools aren't able to support the costs then they would have to make cuts. Like any other business in the UK. Why must private schools be given the special exception? They are not a charity.

[@JohnJohn-cu7nk]

@@maxpowerii7368 Tax payer don't subsidise private schools !!. What a stupid and ridiculous comment, factually untrue and nonsensical

[@maxpowerii7368]

@@JohnJohn-cu7nk what exactly do you think VAT exemptions and charitable status does? No accountant are you?

[@andrewharris3900]

@@maxpowerii7368 they’re not forced to subsidise it. People sending their children to private schools are still paying for public schools through their taxes (they’re technically double paying for education).

[@calorus]

Imagine this: You've got two people, who have the same attainment, one has been supported and spoon-fed at every step - even if they've been set high standards, the other has been self-motivated and self-managed and feded for themselves. Who, on average, will stand better in the real world?

[@calorus]

Nelson argument is bizarre. It makes a massive difference to the state school children they help, but very little to the kids whose parents pay £16k plus a year.

[@positivevibez73]

Where can I watch the whole debate?

[@jeankap]

The british state school system has an unhealthy obsession with discipline and standardisation. While this may work alright for some kids, it is absolutely catastrophic for others. Independent schools exist to cater to alternative needs - kids are not all stamped from the same stuff! Is it really logical to smash up the entire independent schools sector in order to score one over Eaton and a dozen other 'old boy' rich schools in a populist class war? If a policy results in no change to the attendance of Eaton but major changes in the schools scraping by as a labour of love to provide education to SEN and other children failed by the state system, then this is objectively bad policy.

[@christianround2774]

"Independent schools exist to cater to alternative needs" - yes, but only if they can afford it, that's the problem.

[@jeankap]

@@christianround2774 I'd love for the state to provide flexible, modern education. But the pro-Vat side of this debate while extolling improvements in the state school sector seemed blissfully unaware that britain's results are terrible on international comparisons. For example, see the recent unicef report card 16, overall ranking 27 of 38, and particularly poor mental health indicators. And no wonder - the education sector seems geared to grind the majority of students into dust while looking for a few diamonds to send to the Russel group schools. We went with an alternative school to avoid the grinding and our child is thriving there. We're barely managing the finances. So raising vat will probably kick us and others like us into the state sector, strain our kids, and do nothing to shift the eaton->oxbridge->government pipeline. Policies should aim to accomplish intended outcomes.

[@ex-cursion]

The politics, and ultimately evolution, of a 2-tier, classist education system, mostly overseen by people strongly affected by the deep class division of the UK, surely has a lot to do with why the state system is the way it is? The recursive feedback loop is obvious, right?

[@HarryKay_]

considering all private school parents pay, out of their taxes, for state school places they don't take up, I think it's perfectly justifiable to not impose a 20% VAT charge on these people: what these parents do is literally an act of charity! imposing a 20% VAT charge would send many of these parents to the state sector, taking up these otherwise subsidised places, and thus negating any prospective tax revenue raised by the VAT charge in the first place. so what do you get with a VAT charge? higher demand for state school places, a higher cost burden, a proportionally tiny increase in tax revenue raised, but above all: A PYRRHIC NET DEFICIT!

[@user-ob4wo9po2y]

Have you not paid attention to the debate ?

[@roastedfanta9474]

Is the situation here different to the NHS? Should private healthcare be given charity status to exempt them from paying VAT, as some people choose to go private and don't take up places in hospitals?

[@alexshaw4182]

People who can afford a private school won't be paying 20% tax, stop being naive.

[@HarryKay_]

​@@roastedfanta9474 I don't see why not

[@willdoyle29]

@@HarryKay_ The VAT will make it a bigger priority for politicians to improve state schools as a greater proportion of parents will be sending their children to them.

[@double-star]

The balls on IS for putting the answer behind a paywall are massive. Hope yall enjoy the trip on the way down.

[@seankelly3774]

Ash was absolutely brilliant. Thank you.

[@scrumtious1]

I just couldn't get past the first speaker arguing that private schools are great since they throw a few handouts to the plebs every now and then. I was embarrassed for him. Only someone completely tone deaf to the average person could push that as a main argument. So I think he actually proved the point of those who are against "class segregation".

[@gardenroom64]

British curriculum needs changing. IB prepares you for the workplace. Skills, not content is needed.

[@jongalloway726]

Applying VAT is simply an ideological view as this debate clearly shows. I have yet to heard a valid economic reason to do this.

[@maxpowerii7368]

Increases wealth equality which increases economic prosperity. Only reason I’ve heard people support tax subsidies for private schools is greed and selfishness by rich Britons who hate the majority of their country.

[@MrSupercampeao]

@@maxpowerii7368it won’t do either but don’t let the facts get in the way of a comment. Greed, selfishness and hate? Really? How about jealousy, small mindedness and class prejudice.

[@calorus]

Very disappointed to see an organisation as well-funded as IQ² paywalling content. Why not at least monetise with adverts?

[@Charleighcharger]

If the bursaries are so useful to state schools why are the average grades so close. Surely putting more money into state schools will help more kids.

[@MrsYarnold]

My gosh, Ash was outstanding. I’m with you.

[@jamesnaughton5657]

The standard in this debate is so poor.

[@Aubury]

Tax these institutions in PLC terms..

[@kerryfry1857]

It's not fair!

[@andrewharris3900]

It is fair. People paying for private school also pay taxes for state schools, they’re already double paying for education.

[@Zionism_is_Antisemetic]

Abolish Tax Avoidance...

[@fordprefect1925]

man said save

[@Slayqueen971]

Are Labour going to tax private tutors 20% extra tax and / or close down the whole private tutoring industry?

[@elinope4745]

Teach to the speed of slower students who are disadvantaged. Teach to the speed of the highly capable. You must focus on only one of these to the detriment of the other. Public schools have become garbage as they have adopted the former. The last fifteen years of public education have been based upon teaching strategies that idealize equity. There is no equitable way to increase the ability of the disadvantaged, so they choose to hamstring the gifted instead. This has terrible consequences on societies, they become vulnerable to attack from foreign nations and entities.

[@grime_garage]

Ash never disappoints

[@CrunchyNorbert]

state-provided education makes more less efficient and more costly education

[@jamesmclarnon1671]

lol, the chair of the debate has spent the majority of his career as a private school headmaster.

[@sharonjames2041]

😢GWAAN ASH 😢😤❤

[@ex-cursion]

You can't point at the state sector and say 'this is why we need private schools'. Thinking about them in any separate way just denies reality. The politics, and ultimately evolution, of a 2-tier, classist education system, mostly overseen by people strongly affected by the deep class division of the UK, surely has a lot to do with why the state system is the way it is? The recursive feedback loop is obvious, right?

[@crayontom9687]

Fraser Nelson is clueless

[@ricokwan7178]

Instead of trying handling the core issue, namely improving the education quality of state schools, Labour tries to shift the focus proposing to impose a 20% VAT tax on independent schools, in the name of bringing about an illusion of equality amongst all across the nation. The Labour's proposal ignores the fact that education should not be considered a commercial item but an investment in the future generations as the source of creating wealth and development for the whole nation. The Labour's proposal is a blatant social/communist movement/tool/ideology bringing all to an equal foot. Unfortunately, that movement will not bring about something better for all. It will just fulfill the catastrophic satisfaction that if I cannot live better off, I shall like all others are to be living equally bad. Apart from ignoring the fact that not all parents who have sent their children to independent schools are not very rich. The 20% VAT will definitely impose an extremely burdensome task on many of these parents who have worked hard and saved hard for sending their children for better education, hopefully a better future. Now they are to be penalized. The Labour people believe that the 20% VAT will generate certain amount of money which could then be saved and spent for improving the education quality of state schools. That dream is a bit naive. Why? It assumes all parents will continue to send their children to independent schools despite the fee increase. What if all, or even just half of the parents, are forced to give up sending their children to independent schools which are no longer affordable to them? Instead of contributing to the 20% VAT gains, the parents will then be forced to send their children to state schools instead. That will inevitably cause a colossal pressure on demand for state school. If all, most or half of the parents are forced to say goodbye to independent schools, their children have to study at state schools as an alternative choice. Not only that the ideal the 20% VAT tax will generate an additional funding for state schools' improvement will not be achieved, it will inevitably cause great pressure on the already tight resources to be spent on state schools as there will be more demand for state school spaces. How the financial problem/dilemma in that scenario is to be solved/coped with? When more children will leave independent schools and go to study at state schools, it will inevitably cause certain independent schools to face financial hardship then closure, and eventually unemployment to teachers working there. How these problems are to be solved? There are plenty to think ahead before a rosy picture is to be painted, for the purpose of satisfying/pleasing the appetite of certain people.

[@futuresmkt]

Do you realize how absurb your argument is?...who will take the Yes?😮😮

[@ma22_783]

56% who want to keep the VAT exemption. While the people who are working and keeping the country going dont have the time or the energy to attend such events. #justsaying

[@user-ob4wo9po2y]

That was before the debate. I wonder what the polling was after the debate

[@timbomilko5367]

@@user-ob4wo9po2yIndeed. And I also wonder how many of the audience were paying for children in private schools ... the 'gosh' from the chairperson at the beginning seems to suggest that the advocates against paying VAT were out in force and way beyond the 7% of the general population.

[@JoinTheTemple]

Don’t just save the private schools we already have. Get the state completely out of education and make all schools private. Prices would fall over time and standards would get far better. The government isn’t there to educate us, it’s there to protect us.

[@thehappyyoyo]

Best schools in the world? Finland. Where there are no private schools, besides faith schools.

[@lindsaytwort8655]

I was privileged to attend a private school. I loved every moment of my education. There was so much to avail myself of. It was disciplined, traditional and encouraged us all to aim for the stars. My grandchildren now are also in a private school. Their parents work very hard, and save in many ways to give this education to their children. These children, are confident, intelligent, speak English beautifully so that you can understand every word, are kind and considerate. Not to mention their great manners and politeness. I am also very in favour of the English Grammar schools which give an amazing education too. No VAT for private schools.

[@andybrice2711]

I have a suggestion: There should be a VAT-free allowance for private school fees. Perhaps around £8,000 (the approximate cost of a state education). This way, affordable private schools are not taxed. But elite, expensive schools are.

[@Germany12235]

yh that girl on the very right is the square root of intelligent

[@meatychunkz8875]

Maybe next time you’re assembling a crack team to defend the privilege factories that are private schools don’t get a guy who sounds like someone taking the mick out of the king’s accent

[@Stoddardian]

The idea that Ash believes in meritocracy is laughable.

[@natmeyy7590]

Bold statement without explanation!

[@Stoddardian]

@@natmeyy7590 It's obvious she prefers equality over meritocracy.

[@natmeyy7590]

@Stoddardian in the context of education she asked for a show of hands .Q.do you prefer to be led by people based on their skills / merits or their class ? Think the show of hands was unanimous .Think equality was only mentioned when she mentioned levelling the playing field .Can't see how that's laughable !

[@Stoddardian]

@@natmeyy7590 What makes you think you can even separate the two? The reason class exists in the first place is because people are genetically different. Diversity quotas almost always leads to less competence.

[@natmeyy7590]

@Stoddardian social class does not run in our genes, its artificially constructed by man either in many communities by religion ,academia, or wealth. I don't know where you got your point about diversity quotas? Seems that your a supporter of apartied and inequality correct me if I'm wrong ?

[@neilshirley]

Oh no poorer rich people are worried they might have to send their children to the same schools as poorer people!

[@Frohicky1]

Almost. Poorer rich people might have to send their kids to school with the kids of even poorer rich people.

[@lithebod]

The two arguing against the motion are wrong in many ways. Their position appears to be that to weaken and ultimately abolish private schools is the way to deliver equality in outcomes for children in the education system while completely forgetting the fact that there will be other forms of advantage that could be considered a privilege over others that contribute to academic outcomes - whether it's the quality of housing, the level of crime , being able to afford better quality food , having books in the home, caring responsibilities etc etc etc - Ash mentions one of her parents who had a skilled job and could therefore provide a level of privilege that would have put her at an advantage to someone else the school she attended and ultimately her outcomes. The idea that private school single and largest reason that children acquire educational advantages that lead to better job outcomes in adulthood is way to simplistic and picking on this one aspect of advantage of which I think is overrated when looking across the sector is silly. As they say "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and breaking it thinking it will fix something else is not the answer.

[@RDHamel]

U wot. We should probably shut them down tbh, but pretending they are charities is through the looking glass stuff.

[@mathieuraetz2041]

Hahaha wtf is that? Thank’s for the laugh.

[@pjbainzo93]

Very eloquently put, Ash.

[@indexfinisher]

Helen Pike although didn't persuade me to be in favour of the motion made the best points on why the system is broken and why the VAT is not going to touch the sides in fixing states schools. Out of those on the panel i would listern to her for solutions and how to improve state schools compared to any of the others. The others on the other side seem to hide the post code lottery of state schools, buying expensive houses to get into comprehensive state schools which are more selective economically and less diverse than the majority of Grammar schools.

[@ogtaylor]

Ash's seat in most debates is not based on her talent.

[@Mrbpj01]

She's excellent. You're welcome to disagree, but are you saying she's there only because of her race or gender? If so, why not just say so, instead of hiding behind ambiguity? Unpleasant comment.

[@joscmc]

@@Mrbpj01If she is so great, why can’t she address the point that the funding gained from private education also benefits the budget for state schools? Unless, you want the government to raise taxes for everyone, where would the missing budget come from? Not so “excellent” when the very same policies she is promoting, hurts the same kids she is claiming to fight for. Whether you like it or not, the top percentage pay the most tax.

[@Mrbpj01]

​@@joscmc The speeches here are more like opening statements, and speakers are not given a list of points to rebut pre-emptively. It's a bit unfair to say she can't address a point which hasn't been put to her. If, say, you were there to put such a point to her, Ash might fairly begin by asking what the phrase "funding gained from private education" means. Look, think what you like about the role of private education in the UK economy(!), but I was mostly taking umbrage at the point above that Ash Sarkar was only there to fill some sort of diversity quota.

[@natmeyy7590]

Ash nailed it .Shes an excellent speaker.

[@aka8876]

Private schools, we can do without them. It perpetuates the class system in the UK. But what we do need back is proper Grammer & exam entry schools. You can't lump in all the non academic kids with the academic kids and force them into the same mold like the state sector may try and do. For the academic kids, let aspiration and ability be the provider of opportunity, not how big your parent's purse is. For the non academic kids, let them pursue the trades. We need electricians, gas engineers, factory workers, fork lift drivers, road repair crews, car mechanics.

[@yn7751]

From left to right of the panel i didnt see an intelligent person, not a great debate.

[@Charleighcharger]

Helen pike is arguing for more money for state schools. But says 1 billion isn’t going to help. 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@fezmancomments]

A discussion that won’t age well - if and when all education systems are replaced by silicon chip implants.

[@Zionism_is_Antisemetic]

Abolish ALL private Education.... There a Part of the problem not the solution...

[@ashitaka9327]

Ash sarkar never fails to surprise me with her hyperbolic stupidity

[@indexfinisher]

Someone tell her that using swear words is not clever to make a point. She came out the gate trying to show the audience she is a shining example of a comprehensive education, and instead shows me they have not improved since my days of going to a sink comp that I noticed closed down in 2023 which was once an esteemed Grammar school.

[@0skim0]

Refute her argument, calling her stupid doesn't make her wrong.

[@ashitaka9327]

@@0skim0 should I go through every one of her arguments ever and refute them, going through this topic would take long enough and has little to no chance of being even remotely constructive to either of us. You are a faceless nameless entity at the other end of the internet who most likely has a view point on private schools that I would find unbelievably frustrating. In short, cba for the stress.

[@JaffaBeats_producer]

Tell me you're a tory without telling me you're a tory

[@ashitaka9327]

@@JaffaBeats_producer terrible isn’t it?

[@potdog1000]

whinging & whining elitists

[@lindsaytwort8655]

How can this debate be fair, when there are no speakers who went to a private school?

[@natmeyy7590]

Think you must of missed the bit where Fraiser Nelson clearly said that he went to BOARDING school.

[@jonnybingham1]

Ash talking complete nonsense - thinking everything goes back to marxism.

[@JaffaBeats_producer]

Where did she mention Marx?

[@MrSupercampeao]

@@JaffaBeats_producershe didn’t need to because she was seething with class war overtones.

[@JaffaBeats_producer]

@MrSupercampeao all she did was point out the educational and career advantages that are gifted to private school students, just because their parents are rich. If you deny that, look at the statistics of private school students getting into top unis, hence best paid jobs. It's not rocket science

[@MrSupercampeao]

@@JaffaBeats_producer that’s by no means all she did….

[@JaffaBeats_producer]

@@MrSupercampeao oh OK.... Great response 😂

[@coyharlingen]

Oh, Ash. I'm getting old, maybe, but their words are so touching that it makes my eyes well. 'Social apartheid', certainly.

[@jaycartell254]

Why is Ash Sarkar here ? A woman who openly praises the slow genocide and demographic replacement of indigenous Brits from their homeland. Isn't that hate speech based on race ? Oh no, it doesn't fit the narrative.

[@jujutrini8412]

There is no genocide going on in the UK. You are delusional if you think there is.

[@oitoitoi1]

indigneous brits? pretty sure there aren't too many celts and picts walking around, but of course you just meant white people didn't you?

[@user-vc7sn6oy3j]

Any debate with Sarkar on the panel should be on a channel called 'Intelligence Square-rooted.'

[@themagnificentche1119]

Why is Ash Sakar.. what a joke.

[@69655]

The british are soooo funy (((((((((((-: the top guys can't even get their oven ready deal done, but the food banks are growing like mold all of the Island!!!

[@nickelmouse451]

Yes, they're very "funy" and you're right that food banks are growing "all of the Island" - biting satire sir, bravo!

[@upendasana7857]

please tell us what utopian Eden you come from,would love to know how you have erradicated glaring inequality and poverty...us stupid Brits huh,yes we love how unequal our society is whislt many resport to foodbanks and others pay extortionate fees for private schools

[@SarBearSnap]

Ash is the GOAT. Glad the panel was inclusive with differing perspectives and experiences.