DEBATE: Would God Allow Evil? | Michael Jones vs Alex O'Connor

[@CosmicSkeptic]

This video is re-uploaded with kind permission from Cameron Bertuzzi's KZbin channel, 'Capturing Christianity'. Cameron hosts some excellent discussions and debates, well worth checking out: kzbin.info/door/ux-_Fze30tFuI_5CArwSmg

[@stylis666]

@Benjamin Park Just give it some time and Cameron will show his manipulative intentions behind his "kindness". He always has and always will. The only question is whether his religion made him a sociopath or if he is a sociopath that uses religion to hide behind and get respect for behaviour that, without religion would never be accepted by a loving human being.

[@azrielgalila2107]

Spacetime is flat, so the Universe is Infinite and Eternal and was never created. So there was no creation and no God! The whole underlying assumption is stupid!

[@swazilandandbotswana8856]

Azriel Galila yeah man that comment just disproved they whole entire Big Bang theory!

[@swazilandandbotswana8856]

Azriel Galila also do we actually know that space time is flat, and if it is how does make the universe infinite.

[@stylis666]

@@swazilandandbotswana8856 Big Bang theory doesn't exclude an infinite, eternal universe. I'm not sure how flat spacetime would show that the universe is infinite, but I do know that your comment about it is entirely false. Big Bang theory says nothing about the origin of the universe and it also shows that all creation myths are exactly that: myths. Believing them to be real was already quite silly, but believing them after they've all been shown to be false is quite delusional.

[@GapWim]

Micheal: “I endured tremedous suffering through childhood. But what happens then doesn’t affect you as an adult” African child soldier: “OK, switch place?”

[@flutterwind7686]

@a stranger i wish I believed in god, but the belief doesn't hold any validity. I have no reason to believe that I will become a billionare in 2 days, just like I have no reason to believe in god or heaven.

[@flutterwind7686]

@a stranger nobody gives a shit

[@JuanLopez-rl7ry]

@a stranger Why are there many different types of Qurans?

[@GapWim]

a stranger | I very much doubt your incessant spamming and harassment everywhere is a conducive way to reach your intended goal. Unless, that is, if your goal is for everyone to eventually ignore you and have a deeper dislike of Islam and Muslims. … If the latter: good job! This is my very last message to you and everytime I come across one of your posts I will report it as spam.

[@GapWim]

Blaq Inkz | I bet he still believes fresh and salt water don’t mix because it’s in his holy book 😂🤣

[@walterbrooks2329]

If there was no evil in Middle Earth I wouldn't want to read that book but I sure as hell would want to live in that world! There's a reason that "may you live in interesting times" is a curse.

[@funnblox]

Exactly! Like the times we're living in are certainly going to be an interesting read in history books...but there's no way I'd rather be living in this era than a more boring "normal" future era

[@jamesrockybullin5250]

It's abhorrent to defend pain and suffering by saying it makes it interesting for the "reader". Does that mentality condone torturing pets? Rape? It's the mentality of a psychopath.

[@tincanmaniac1931]

@@jamesrockybullin5250 no one is defending pain and suffering. What are you on about.

[@jamesrockybullin5250]

@@tincanmaniac1931 Yes, Michael Jones (IP) is defending pain and suffering. Michael is defending an omnibenevolent God who causes or at least allows pain and suffering. An omnibenevolent God would minimize pain and suffering. So IP's position is that the pain and suffering in the world is the minimum it can be, and he spends time giving reasons why it is necessary. He even goes so far as to say that a world without pain and suffering would be a terrible place to live. In this context, giving reasons why pain and suffering are necessary is the same thing as defending pain and suffering.

[@dogsdomain8458]

@@tincanmaniac1931 literally the entire point of a theodicy

[@nero2814]

nobody would read the lord of the rings if there is no evil. so god invented evil, so people will read bible. marketing 💯%

[@jan782001]

Stonks

[@mikechapman1992]

I almost stopped watching the video when he made this argument

[@nero4238]

that guy is a joke

[@alexn1199]

I usually respect the conversations provided by people Alex talks to. The only one that really frustrated me, before this, was the one with Frank. But this one takes the cake. Frank simply seemed a little rude. Kinda “I’m older and wiser than you” but made coherent arguments. This dude did not. Not only is the lotr argument wild. But the whole concept of “I’d rather have bad so we can have heroes because that’s fun” is on another level. It’s basically like saying “I value the novelty of life more than I value the lives of those who suffer” and I think he tries to justify it because of the existence of heaven. Which is horrible. And even more than that, he repeatedly makes the claim “I had a tough childhood and it doesn’t effect me now” as if people don’t suffer long-lasting and life-long effects from childhood trauma. I cannot respect this guy one bit.

[@mikechapman1992]

@@alexn1199 hit the nail on the head

[@noamaster3898]

Catching him saying he wouldn't want his own child to experience immense suffering was the final nail.

[@noamaster3898]

@@SilenceDogwood. Ah, that's not a gotcha--that's my point: No moral being, human or god, WOULD say that...or do that. Yet it's the foundation of IP's theology, and the mechanism by which his God saves. (An omnipotent God of Love, who could snap his fingers and forgive, instead has a Perfect Plan™ to forgive through blood sacrifice, torture, familicide, and substitutionary atonement--all immoral acts that solve nothing. Besides substitutionary atonement being a nonsequitur, a la Stanhope's "Jesus died for your sins / I hit my foot with a shovel for your mortgage.") So it's a rich moment of cognitive dissonance, a tacit admission and underlining of the immoral, grotesque act at the center of Christianity; Humans are so bad, that in order for the Love God to forgive them and not send them to Hell, God had to do something NO moral human would do.

[@jesushad12gayfriendwhoallb50]

@@SilenceDogwood. isn’t it weird how separation from god wasn’t seen as bad so theists had to make up a fire dimension lmao.

[@TaeyxBlack]

@@jesushad12gayfriendwhoallb50yup. it’s not just “become a christian so u can have relationship with god”, because most people, rationally, would respond, “who tf is that? i don’t need a relationship with that person who cares?” the stick had to be added to the carrot. “become a christian so you can have a relationship with god……*OR ELSE*.” it turns the “gift of salvation” into a threat of torture.

[@n.c.1201]

It is interesting that IP says he has too much emotional connection to his daughter that he doesn't want her to suffer... why is God allowed to 'love you unconditionally' but torture the same child he loves with agonizing suffering?

[@utubepunk]

Alex's opponent starts by saying consider the totality... if a child dies a painful death from cancer, he goes to heaven so suffering wasn't evil. So a serial killer who kills children & sends them to heaven isn't evil?

[@poplionandrew5803]

Anything at all?

[@utubepunk]

@@poplionandrew5803 Can you rephrase your question?

[@poplionandrew5803]

@@utubepunk Closer to truth: consciousness, cosmo, God

[@rickydevmj]

@@utubepunkif a person dies of old age, is God, if he exists, committing evil?

[@utubepunk]

@@poplionandrew5803 Can you rephrase your question without the cryptics?

[@lrm9298]

Very problematic that childhood trauma was just brushed over as not being a big deal...

[@ninototo1]

Agreed, it's troubling

[@fiftylester]

I think the christian could do with reading some Gabor Matè books and educating himself on the immenss impact childhood trauma has. He says he hasn't been impacted by his traumatic experiences with his mother and maybe he hasn't but maybe he haz and just hasn't connected the dots . His "logic" that leads him to his god belief does not fill me with hope he would be logical in other ways. He should also study ACES which in a very black and white way show the impact on adults of adverse childhood experiences . To trivialise and patronise others who have trauma ranging from childhood sexual abuse to physical beatings to millions of kids literally starving to death every year . Kids (such as myself) being born to parents who were made put us up for adoption and hence creating a huge disconnect between my biological parents and I that will never resume what "should have been". Kids being raped by priests all over the world . The catholic church ignoring it for decades and helping it to continue by their lack of accountability . Those kids who have now grown up , many have come forward to say they have severe mental health issues, dysfunctional sex lives etc. Trauma is a lot more wide ranging than one guy with an anecdote of a mother who sorted herself out with her issues. Many mothers and fathers are not so lucky. Does that disprove his claim ? If not why use his mothers rehab as a claim of evidence towards God's existence. He raises so much inconsistent bullshit it's hard to follow . Bringing up unfalsifiable elements like the afterlife etc ignores the fact the premise isn't objectively accepted as truth. If my auntie had wheels she'd be a bike.

[@ton1]

Am I am the only one, who thinks IP is maybe beating his daughter?

[@DancingWithLucifer]

Yeah “people go through horrible things as children but once you’re an adult it goes away and isn’t a big deal” is the wildest take I’ve heard in a while

[@davidsabillon5182]

He had no choice but to move on.

[@TheRealGuywithoutaMustache]

I'm assuming they're talking about the Christian god, because Zeus was once considered the King of Kings too.

[@othmane0313]

You are everywhere

[@legendary3952]

Are you omnipresent

[@lukadragas5966]

I'm assuming you are an atheist with no knowledge on philosophy of religion.

[@swazilandandbotswana8856]

I mean I think a god that almost nobody worships is off the list.

[@Never-mind1960]

@@lukadragas5966 I'm assuming you are a troll who pretends knowledge on philosophy of religion.

[@charliewade3878]

Alex, can I just say your response to the question around the 1:40:00 mark is just incredibly eloquent, emotive and rational at the same time. It gave such a brilliant sense of simultaneous hopefulness and hopelessness about our whole state of affairs. You’re becoming an amazing debater, it reminded of Hitch at his most touching, persuasive and elegant.

[@jsull81]

To say that suffering is acceptable because the good will always overcome or outweigh the suffering is an extremely privileged & naive position

[@nyutrig]

I don't think you could scientifically prove something like that.

[@jsull81]

@@nyutrig "Prove" is probably the wrong word to use, but I am pretty sure there's research to suggest this. At least, I've heard anti-natalist site it before

[@katharinafisher394]

it irked me how he kept bringing up fiction to make the point of triumph of good over evil. and note how quickly he withdrew from definitive arguments when the question of 'what if it was your child' came up. imagine if his daughter were to be ripped apart by a hungry lion in a gladitorial arena and some roman spectator dude explained to him 'well, that's not so bad. she gets to go to your heaven, you get a better soul, life is a dream anyway, and i get to experience some great sense of triumph and validation of my world views when the lion wins. so... go greater good!'

[@daviddeida]

Acceptance of suffering I would say is a very good place to begin.In fact more accurate,the acceptance of pain does not prolong suffering.

[@Cecilia-ky3uw]

i believe most vegans should take the position of anti natalism and possibly advocate for warming the planet instead of saving it but anyways i agree that what he said was from an extremely privileged position and i say that myself being relatively privileged in a relatively high income family from indonesia anyways many traumatic events the starvation and disease in africa the chaotic wars in africa and bloody coups then there is the middle east a place better than africa only by a small margin but they got it a bit better since while israel isnt perfect by any means at least it is a more or less stable democracy and more or less managed to uphold human rights except in the case of palestine which both of them h8 each other what do you expect anyways other than that authoritarian regimes blasphemy laws and banning of apostasy as well as isis and some other groups i dont even know of cause worse situations there then there is south america a weird case which I dont know how to describe at all about asia it is doing relatively fine if you exclude taiwan could be invaded any time japan and south korea h8 each other for god's sake and north korea has nukes not to mention blasphemy laws in south asia 4 literal monarchies in south east asia (brunei, thailand, yogyakarta, and possibly malaysia) then mr india the weird case because hindus hate muslims and vice versa and yet they somehow remain intact all the while pakistan hates on india and bangladesh has a lot of poverty

[@bloccoaspirale1867]

The great thing about arguing on God's behalf is that apologists can assign it *any* attribute necessary to overcome *any* criticism.

[@patrikgrguric535]

This is why the start of any debate related to "God" needs to start with this question towards the religious person: "What/who is God? Define God. Thoroughly."

[@surfk9836]

"God created man in his image.....then we returned the favor". Voltaire

[@BigHeretic]

Well they try to assign any attribute necessary, let's not allow them that luxury.

[@RichSFS]

@@patrikgrguric535 Indeed. I don't understand how these people can claim to know countless number of things about this God. Everything that they claim is unknowable. These debates must start with the claims that they have about their God and then they must provide justifications for those claims. Only then can we move on to further (and perhaps more interesting questions). Furthermore, there are a billion questions that could be asked about their God for which they, again, do not have ANY answers to. Next time I come across a theist I'm going to play ignorant towards all belief and simply ask question after question just like a child would. Why is God this, why is God that? How do you know this about God? What about all these other people who make different claims about their God? And so on. I could go on forever with the number of questions I have once a God comes into the picture. Making a claim that there's a God produces far more questions that MUST have answers in order for me to believe in him. I'm more comfortable being ok with not knowing everything about the universe (yet) than invoking Gods and magic just because we do not know.

[@patrikgrguric535]

@@RichSFS Until this issue is resolved, it's completely understandable to simply ignore them, or do what you said, act like a child. I prefer to show them the bs, but that's just me.

[@SangoProductions213]

"Those who are in hell are the ones who want to be there." OK, so only masochists are in hell, and it's not actually a place of judgement.

[@SangoProductions213]

Ok. That doesn't make it better...Your now saying that God tortures people who already beat themselves up over nonsense, while giving unrepentant killers of worse a free ride to heaven.

[@illithidhunter6177]

Exactly, He is showing god isn't a judge and anyone can enjoy eternal bliss in paradise. Both the Victim of rape and the rapist in heaven.

[@justiceperhay8328]

The irony is that he quotes C.S. Lewis, but C.S. Lewis didn't believe in a protestant literal hell. Even today, the majority of christians have a problem with his idea of hell.

[@zacheryeckard3051]

@D. E. So is Marxism satanic or atheist? Get your propaganda and strawmen straight, at least.

[@pawelstuglik4737]

@D. E. Hitler was not an atheist, you doofus.

[@Applefreak52]

Ah, so childhood cancer makes the world interesting. Got it.

[@User-fr1zj31]

Yeah surely a boundless God couldn't find another way to make life interesting

[@djeeeeeee]

You see this world as an end-product. This is a fallen world where suffering is everywhere. It doesn't mean every form of suffering is good, but God is not going to relieve suffering in a fallen world, no matter how severe the suffering is.

[@sunwukong6917]

​@@djeeeeeeethat just speaks to either god is cold and cruel or non existent

[@PlaySolosWithMe]

strawman of the century

[@alexbernat525]

@@djeeeeeee Then god is not omnibenevolent

[@contactpinacolada]

both speakers made clear and convincing arguments for atheism

[@w3bz36]

havahahh

[@letswatchutube5132]

Haha

[@PiousParable]

HAHAHAHAHAHAA

[@noah8236]

Thank you for this beautiful comment. I had a good laugh! :D

[@AlessandroFranchi]

Lol! What a silly comment

[@LeneChibi]

Finally an atheist who includes the notion of animal suffering in the whole Dialogue. It brings up so many additional issues and interesting points to think about. Thanks for the great debate!

[@lollerskatez1]

@Michael David Dixon If I can overpower you, are you then made to serve me Michael?

[@dogsdomain8458]

@Michael David Dixon so i guess you wouldn't mind me torturing all these puppies since their entire existence is meant to serve our own

[@jwatson181]

This has been a common aspect of the problem of evil my friend! You need to read mackeys versus of it which is genuinely considered the strongest.

[@khalilfreeman7194]

Michael David Dixon You are correct that humans are more intelligent than animals and have the ability to control them, but why do these facts make their suffering any less legitimate than ours? What evidence are you using to come to the conclusion that animals were “made to serve us?”

[@mohamedyusuf5141]

@@khalilfreeman7194 The reason for their suffering and the circumstances of it. Slaughtering them for consumption in a human way wouldn't be immoral 🤷‍♂️

[@sina4255]

I don't know anyone who is this good at debating as alex.

[@matthewontherocks]

It really makes me think in most of his videos he actually just turns the camera on and decides what he wants to discuss at that moment

[@Sam_on_YouTube]

I know plenty of good debaters. Alex is good, but not any better than most people who have both practice and talent.

[@delavega4706]

Alex debated, discussed to Dr. Josh Rasmussen, Liz Jackson and Jonathan McLatchie. So did Tom Jump (TJump). Draw your own conclusions . On TJump`s channel. Dr. Josh Rasmussen vs TJump, Is There No Evidence for God's Existence? 7 mar. 2019 Dr. Josh Rasmussen (Philosophy), Convo on Epistemology and Religion 9 abr. 2020 Liz Jackson, Pascal's Wager a good argument? 30 mar. 2020 Does God Exist? TJump VS Jonathan McLatchie 21 jul. 2019

[@JakeSusla]

Especially at his age. Jeez it's so impressive

[@theaccentedguy1505]

I so agree

[@MagicTurtle643]

Alex's answer about suicide was truly moving and inspiring. I agree with him completely, with heavy emphasis on that the answer is almost always "no," but not by default. Great discussion. One of the best atheist/christian debates I've ever seen. Michael is incredibly smart and well-equipped for this and made some surprisingly good points.

[@dohpam1ne]

It is extremely dangerous to claim that most or all evil allowed by God is to bring about a greater good. This implies that it's ultimately better that such evil occurs, which is essentially arguing against any opposition to suffering in the world. Any time we donate to charity or protest oppression or intervene to stop any cruel act, we are operating under the assumption that the suffering isn't going to ultimately bring about a greater good.

[@azap12]

Not only is that there is no such as a just world.

[@Z4r4sz]

It would mean that repeating the same evil would be beneficial which means humans couldnt learn from any former evil action and this god is incapable of creating humans that could learn from any evil action. But in the end it doesnt matter for anyone who subscribes to the religion anyway because everything will be forgiven and learning isnt necessary.

[@tropicalnofruit1419]

Leo Behe simply paradoxical

[@marcdecock7946]

If religious leaders discover that people are more likely to believe when they are poor, uneducated and beaten into obedience, they have a motivation to strive for such a situation. It annoys them a lot that Finland has such a high rate of prosperity, education, kindness and atheism.

[@Z4r4sz]

@@marcdecock7946 Isnt that what we see in the middle east, afrika and america because most people are poor and the education system barely functional?

[@levi5073]

Alex is unbelievably smart and articulate. He has the vocab of Hitch and the philosophical skill of Arif Ahmed (AKA The LogicBot) Alex, you're an absolute gem. Darwin bless you.

[@levi5073]

​@Trolltician Wanna debate, bitch?

[@mazuzu3880]

Arif ahmed is on another level in my opinion but Alex is way up there too amongst the most articulate and intelligent speakers of modern day

[@papinbala]

lol wow

[@lloydchristmas4547]

@Trolltician

[@papinbala]

@@lloydchristmas4547 how is it a theist alert? He is praising Alex so most likely his position is anti theist. i think you meant atheist alert. or maybe you just dont know what your talking about and totally lost.

[@matthewfredericksen1108]

I love how Michael uses fantasy stories (LOTR, Narnia, Inception) to illustrate his worldview. It’s fitting.

[@Pllayer064]

🤔🤔🤔🤔

[@potatoxgaming9466]

WELL Jesus use parable to describe heavenly things using earthly things.

[@potatoxgaming9466]

@DragonSpirit9000 LOL if it's fake then why are we suffering?

[@potatoxgaming9466]

@DragonSpirit9000 This world is wicked and temporary. GOD's grace and mercy let us live for opportunity to be saved.

[@potatoxgaming9466]

​@DragonSpirit9000 Sometimes atheist forgets that this world is temporary. That everything in it will be destroyed by GOD in the future due to being so wicked . The ETERNAL WORLD BEATS ALL the suffering we experienced today. It's true that this world is slowly dying. GOD wants it to be slowly dying so that many will have a opportunity to be saved. We Christians know that believers in CHRIST will be hated BY ALL NATIONS in the future and will be persecuted as it said in the holy book.

[@beck2310]

When Michael Jones started talking about "living a life without suffering it's worse than triumph over suffering" I was like: bruh, you're basically saying that you would rather live on earth rather in paradise.

[@sharkybrickfilms99120]

he literally said that heaven has suffering

[@Sapientiaa]

He’s saying that it’s a necessary step, and I believe he’s argued something similar for heaven before.

[@mattr.1887]

I think some suffering or at least tension is necessary. If you never felt any pain, then you would never be motivated to do anything productive. None of this proves anything for Christianity though, imo.

[@darkestblaze02]

I've read this somewhere. "THINK OF ALL THE THINGS YOU'D DO IF YOU'RE GOD, AND CONTEMPLATE THAT YOU'RE WORSHIPING ONE THAT HASN'T"

[@keiranleonard1301]

The thing is.... you are God!!

[@fisharepeopletoo9653]

@Trolltician Its pretty logical. For instance, if I were God I might make a better book, maybe in such a way that it isn't forced to be translated over and over, and probably at the time with the most humans instead of the least, and at a time when the world is connected electronically so the word can spread world-wide without bloodshed. But the all knowing god couldn't even figure this out?

[@fisharepeopletoo9653]

@@keiranleonard1301 Its so true. We are all zeus, and zeus is all of us.

[@stylis666]

@@keiranleonard1301 I am infinitely better than any and all gods. You see, I replied to your comment. That may not have much of an impact, but it's infinitely more than any god has ever done.

[@robertaylor9218]

Setekh lol.

[@mariaangelova8275]

** As I am listening to this discussion, I am ever more convinced that I am an atheist and vegan fighting for animal rights. ** But a comment I wanted to make about evil existing because it allows you to achieve some kin of greater good ... 13 years ago I lost my father to cancer and even tho it has made me even closer to my mom and my sister, I have stronger friendships (because of two very close friends have gone through the same tragedy), I would prefer that my dad was alive a million times over than him getting cancer and dying.

[@emarskineel]

@Trolltician how so?

[@mariaangelova8275]

@Trolltician No one is equating the coronavirus with humans. That makes no sense at all.

[@emarskineel]

@Trolltician is there some branch of extreme veganism that demands carnivorous animals go vegan? How would humans eating plants exclusively equate to depriving carnivores of their prey? I don't think anyone is calling for anything you suggested. Am I missing something?

[@dhisufiroafrozenseraphimdragon]

@@emarskineel Basically, why is it wrong for humans to eat animals but animals can eat other animals?

[@emarskineel]

@Trolltician Either I'm too stupid to follow your logic or your logic is too stupid to follow. Of course humans are above animals intellectually. You can't reason with an animal and convince it to stop eating meat. From what I understand, vegans are all about minimizing the suffering we cause animals. We can survive without torturing and eating animals, evidence shows it's actually a much healthier way to live. So by eating plants exclusively, you greatly decrease unnecessary animal suffering. I'm really struggling to understand what you're arguing exactly. Animals can't be reasoned with...vegans aren't in the woods trying to convert wolves into vegan wolves lmao...it's all about minimizing our(human, not animal) contribution to animal suffering. It really isn't that complicated. From what I can tell your argument is what they call a strawman, and a nonsensical one at that.

[@sharksicklegaming]

Maaan when your first argument for god allowing kids to suffer and die is "it's okay because they'll get to go to heaven"

[@daviddeida]

You not accepting kids suffering from cancer and doing nothing to prevent it means you are in hell and suffering already.

[@Garyskinner2422]

@@TheSurpremeLogician No I'll just buy ecstasy and have the high without the suffering

[@sgracem2863]

@@TheSurpremeLogician Would you be willing to be sexually abused beaten tortured everyday of your life for 40 years until you are finally skinned alive and killed as long as you could spend eternity in o great heaven? Or would you rather experience neither? Idk about you but my answer is obviously to experience neither. Your arguing point comes from an incredible position of privilege and lack of sympathy. It is clear that you have not had to experience anywhere near this level of suffering in your life or considered what it is truly like for some people who have to experience a life like this.

[@jatniel3297]

Heaven is eternal, suffering is temporary. I feel like a lot of people downplay eternity. Us humans can't properly grasp infinity, but I assure you an infinite time period of happiness free of suffering heavily outweighs any suffering in what is relatively an instant. It's easy to lose sight of eternity and focus on pain and sufferings that move us deeply on an emotional level. I understand being a murder victim or a victim of lascivious crime is awful, but on a logical standpoint an infinite pleasurable and happy heaven should trump any pain in between. I don't think many people could agree that being in a spiritual and physical state where pain doesn't exist and never will again would not be more than enough to compensate for brief life of suffering (of various magnitudes).

[@sirbaguette8378]

@Maximo Mantero Well, that of course depends. If we had 100% definitive proof that the existence of Heaven as portrayed in the Bible (or any other religion where there is an afterlife of paradise), then yes. I would willingly suffer every second of my mortal life to get into this place. That would be the rational thing to do, as heaven is eternal, my mortal suffering is temporary, as someone above said. The problem is, we don't have any definitive proof that heaven even exists and its basically unfalsifiable. So now it basically becomes pascal's wager, to which my answer would be no, I would not willingly suffer.

[@Swash74]

IP says that a world without problems, pain, or suffering is like a world of Stepford Wives, and that it would be a dystopian horror. Does that make Heaven a dystopian horror?

[@doctorofhorrors239]

The position of the theist here in this debate is that evil could still exists in heaven.

[@Swash74]

Well, I guess he has to say that, otherwise his argument will come back to bite him. I've never heard from any other Christian that evil could exist in post "rapture" heaven. I do understand that at some point evil must have existed there, or God would not have had to kick out Lucifer. So, maybe he has a point, though it's strange to think evil can exist there in God's presence. Does that mean Heaven isn't an eternal guarantee? Can sin exist in heaven? The wages of sin are death. Can people die in heaven? If so, do they go to a super afterlife? So many questions...

[@doctorofhorrors239]

Yes unlimited paradox, and yet with no verifiable evidence

[@Pllayer064]

@@doctorofhorrors239 wym? mah old book!

[@hd-mot]

@@doctorofhorrors239 I was surprised to hear him make the argument that evil exists in Heaven, but I don't think he's wrong since obviously, angels had a choice in Heaven. The end result of having the choice to do evil for all eternity means everyone will eventually end up in hell. How do you manage to not do evil for all eternity? And all it took for Adam and Eve to get booted from the garden was eat a piece of fruit while not having the knowledge of good and evil and likely not even knowing what "death" means.

[@jamesrockybullin5250]

48:29 We CAN idolise people who haven't suffered greatly. Artists for example. We can praise Shakespeare for contributions to literature because they bring pleasure, not becuase they reduced suffering. Beethoven wasn't a more virtuous person than Haydn just because he overcame the immense suffering caused by his deafness.

[@alexanderofrhodes9622]

There can be a scale of pleasure, without the latter half of that scale being suffering. Greater and lesser pleasures can be delineated without a reference to suffering

[@Redhunteur2]

Holy crap that whole opening with him saying that all suffering by children on Earth means nothing because it will all be swept away when they go to heaven was one of the most offencive things I've ever heard in my freaking life. I know a dozen people that I wish I could pump their childhood memories into your head and then you can tell me that you are the one who's the standard for what's too much because you cried over a toy when you were a little kid and you don't remember that anymore. I'd like you to introduce you to Fraulein fritzl who spent 20 years being raped by her father and giving birth to her own brothers and sisters.cuz it doesn't matter now right cuz one day she'll probably go to heaven and everything will be a okay so it doesn't matter she was raped by her father for two bloody decades! That was absolutely disgusting!

[@whatwecalllife7034]

To make it even worse, wouldn't they remember the trauma that happened in Heaven? How would their suffering be abated in Heaven? Does Yahweh do a MiB memory wipe or something?

[@Redhunteur2]

@@whatwecalllife7034 exactly! And if he did wipe your memory then that would mean that you didn't care anymore about the people that you used to care for that are now suffering in hell for all eternity. Would you look down on them and recognized that it was them and just feel nothing? If you had all your memories erased, you wouldn't be the same person anymore so who the hell is the person that supposed to be you who's up in heaven?

[@Redhunteur2]

@@whatwecalllife7034 and is there free will in heaven? Because I hear Christians all the time say that would make you a robot, that would take away your free will, God doesn't want you to be an automaton etc. well, what the hell was Paradise supposed to be in the garden of Eden? That was at the beginning of time, and at the end of time, we're supposed to go to heaven which is supposed to be a place of perfection where there is no sin and there's no evil. So clearly God can and has made a place where there is no evil but for some reason he had to create a place that was perfect and then blame us for fucking it up and then give us a fucked-up place to live in for the majority of time and then it some undisclosed future date we're supposed to rise from our fucken Graves and then live in heaven without sin and evil again. Why the fuk wasn't that just a default from the beginning? What was the point of all this in-between bullshit of torture and horror and rape and Holocausts? hey, look at me! I take away the Holocaust, cancer, and starvation, and I made a better world a million times over than your God did!

[@whatwecalllife7034]

@@Redhunteur2 Preaching to the choir lol. Try telling this to these deeply entrenched Christians and the trolling Christians as well.

[@Redhunteur2]

@@whatwecalllife7034 Unfortunately I know exactly what that's like, I deal with these idiots every fucking day. I know that for me it took a lot of people throwing things in my face and ridiculing me until I went out of my way to try to prove them wrong before I finally came to the light as it were, so I don't give up; I wish there were more people like me now speaking out against this nonsense back when I was going through my change. I think there's hope but goddamn some days it feels fucking tiring. I appreciate the kind words, brother. Keep fighting the good fight. Peace.

[@Doppe1ganger]

Alex is such a deep and quick thinking person. He immidiately recognises problems within a soup of garble and can question and break them down concise. I sometimes feel you're being too wise in that you're too humble, which is a good trait ofcourse, but when confronted with so much absolute and utter nonsense than nuance just get's lost in a sea of untruths.

[@JMUDoc]

"We have to have hunger because it tells us when to eat." Why is a world where both hunger and eating are necessary, better than one where _neither_ is necessary?

[@JMUDoc]

@ *What makes u think a world like this is desireable??* Well, this is answering a question with a question, but I think it's desirable because I find it desirable.

[@JMUDoc]

@ Why is it necessary to experience good? Why not have a world with neither?

[@JMUDoc]

@ I would.

[@TheCommun3]

@ you can actually experience good without evil just like you can experience happiness without sadness..the opossite is also true...if you never experienced evil you might not have appreciated good behaviour as much but you would still experience it

[@TheCommun3]

@ first of allphysical orientation is not the same thing is emotions and other social constructs like the idea of good and evil...You can be happy in a world where sadness doesnt exist...if for instance we alter our brains biochemistry(lets boost our dopamine and keep it up at all times,which is not that simple but bear with me)then everybody will be happy regardless of their enviroment, geopolitical and socioeconomic status...this would lead to the creation of a world were being sad is impossible because of our biochemicaly altered brains...you would however be happy without knowing ever sadness as a feeling

[@clascaulfieldjr3653]

Painful or traumatic events don’t lead to problems in adulthood? Decades of research on attachment, trauma, and mental illness would beg to differ. Has this guy never read a single thing about psychology and psychological disorders? Every time I give the theist a chance by listening to their arguments I hear something as obscenely wrong and ignorant as this claim.

[@veganatheistandmore]

Christians seem to be used to pulling shit out of their ass because they think they are exempt from having to provide evidence. Since it has worked in the past, they think it still works now.... don't think so.

[@adrenochrome_slurper]

Well he's a Christian apologist now, so there's that.

[@beneven-kesef5121]

I dont think this is what he was trying to say. I think, though I may be giving too much credit, is that it doesn't always lead to that.

[@nicbongo]

They only need one book... And it's conflicting passages 🤦

[@Sierra-cl9xr]

This guy obviously had a privileged childhood. No one with childhood traumas would agree with his sentiments in that point

[@andrewoliver8930]

The Flying Spaghetti Monster realises we're liable to make mistakes as he made us whilst drunk. However, the "I'd rather you didn'ts" layout a perfect system of morality to live by. R'amen.

[@thierry2720]

@John Smith I'd love to see a game or a movie based on that franchise, the names sound so cool to my inner 13 yo!

[@swazilandandbotswana8856]

Thierry get out of here you stupid blm supporter

[@thierry2720]

@@swazilandandbotswana8856 ??!! WTF ??!! You made me laugh, well done, that earned you a response! (but don't expect too much!)

[@simpdestroyer5137]

R'amen

[@CarnevalOne]

Your understanding of religion is profound. Because evolution.

[@adswers6900]

"i want suffering in the world because otherwise it would br boring" basically what micheal is saying here. its outragous

[@mikeygarcia8271]

You know what is the difference between God and------ the false gods in Hinduism and other polytheistic religions? Jesus Himself shed His own blood, became a sacrifical lamb for all of us sinners that we may have life! Compared that to false gods in Hindusim and other polytheistic religions whose false gods required human sacrifices among their subjects to satisfy their evil and capricious demands for human blood!

[@adswers6900]

@@mikeygarcia8271 you dont know anything about other religions and claim wrong bigoted hypocritical statements about them. read the bible, your "god" took many sacrifices which he demanded, also had no problem to wipeout the whole humanity atleast twice, because he didnt liked how humanity turned out... so much for your "freedom of will"

[@mikeygarcia8271]

@@adswers6900 Bigoted, hypocritical statements? Im sorry but I think you are not aware about the history of hinduism and other polytheistic religions..you might want to do a bit of research about them (no pun intended) 2nd, Wiped out all humanity?? First, you can't consider that "humanity" because people then were no longer humans, they were already behaving like demons.He wiped them all out except for Noah and his family because that "humanity" you were referring to were already possessed by evil that they ceased behaving like humans . God has always been very patient with us, it is when the sin of mankind reaches its full measure that He executes judgement. Remember, He is a just and a holy God and it is in His nature to impose punishment on anyone who commits evil. What you may have forgotten is that though God is a God of love and mercy, He is also a God of justice. Remember David? He loves David but David was never spared of punishment when he sinned againts God by orchestrating the death of one of his loyal soldiers so he could have his wife, Bathesheba. David never intended to kill him in the beginning but when he got his wife pregnant he had to devise a way to take himself out of a shameful situation...and God punished David severely for what he did.

[@adswers6900]

@@mikeygarcia8271 nobody cares about your whatboutism

[@mikeygarcia8271]

@@adswers6900 not "nobody" Those who belong to God will care about it.

[@FleyDragon]

This is so absurd. IP says that if the world was all pleasure and no suffering then we would not develop correctly as human beings. Why does that matter in this case? There would be no suffering anyway. Everything would be totally fine.

[@jorgewinner4116]

Your point is absurd. pleasure and suffering are part of the experiene of living.

[@sasilik]

@@jorgewinner4116 that is just usual trope. Have you any actual evidence for that?

[@FleyDragon]

@@jorgewinner4116 I don't know what your point is. I know our world works that way.

[@anand.suralkar]

@@jorgewinner4116 no its not...no one want suffering

[@anand.suralkar]

@@jorgewinner4116 do u want suffering???

[@artistryartistry7239]

So wait a second, people who sinned all their lives on earth are suddenly incapable of sin in heaven even though they have free will? That doesn't even begin to hold water.

[@nitehawk86]

I'd like to see 2 Christians debate "is there free will in heaven".

[@haleybean75]

As I understand it, referencing Isaiah 11, all will have the knowledge of God in heaven. That’s why we will not harm or destroy, we will no longer eat animals and animals will live in harmony. The wolf will live with the lamb and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

[@haleybean75]

Although then I struggle with this - why was it not okay for Adam and Eve to have this sort of knowledge in Eden? I’m a Christian, but I’ve got a lot of questions myself and therefore appreciate these types of debates.

[@cherrypi398]

@@reubzdubz Then why couldn't he have created Adam and Eve that way-not having the desire to sin? If it works up there shouldn't it work down here? And what about Lucifer(Satan)? He was up there hugging God's throne and washing his feet for a trillion years and yet he was discontent with heaven.Are we to believe that he was so stupid that even after being up there close to center of the matrix and seeing God in his awesomeness and never ending power that he would think,"I know I can deck this guy?"

[@JenniB123]

@@haleybean75 So God is going to completely reconfigure the lion's digestive system, in which case, it won't be a lion!

[@arcadiagreen150]

God is that plumber that comes into your house and destroys your toilet, just so you can thank him for fixing it

[@stylis666]

You overestimate God's power. He's the kind of being that has people come to your house to gaslight you into thinking that your toilet is a vile shithole that deserves utter destruction but you can thank God for its blessings and grace so that your shitbucket won't be destroyed or make your life miserable and if you don't thank and worship him for it he'll send more people to threaten you that when you're dead you'll be in a shithole forever, without the "help" and "love" of that god and whatever the fuck blessings and grace are supposed to do. I assume it's doing exactly nothing, just like everything godly. But hey, if it does nothing it at least doesn't encourage divine vengeance on people who turned their back on the gaslighting manipulative maniac or wish death or reconsideration to grovel for the invisible, impotent narcissist for those who love each other and show that physically in an adult, enthusiastically consensual manner. Evidently the actions of its worshipers are infinitely more effective than that of the god itself and I can't say I'm too happy with the result. I rather have them be as inane as their useless god is.

[@poplionandrew5803]

Thank for giving God a chance to show and tell.

[@sodalitia]

Yes. He is an Italian plumer and loves jumping on mushrooms.

[@artistryartistry7239]

More accurately, the plumber has provided your soul the opportunity to develop into a more "interesting" one by destroying your toilet.

[@sodalitia]

@@artistryartistry7239 Is that why Pope shits in the woods?

[@xenon8117]

I wouldn’t say suffering happens any time you’re upset. Crying because you don’t get to play on the roof, have a new toy or exercise isn’t suffering it’s discomfort or sadness that is short lived. Suffering is worse, it would be: an illness or injury that causes pain, starvation, abuse, mental health issues and a long list of other possibilities.

[@sharathsh9987]

Whew, this IP guy must be burning some serious calories with the intellectual gymnastics he's doing.

[@chrisschall8492]

Look out Keto and Atkins-the IP diet is a new one on the scene LOL

[@MrGodofcar]

LOL

[@Certaintyexists888]

How would you know if you were suppressing your knowledge of God?

[@alphazutn1274]

Look ! Someone decent enough to give you the debate to post it on your channel without silly demands. Unlike IERA and Mohammed Hijab.

[@xxgmehhhejkdkkjjfctsxxsjjj5194]

Yeah I love honesty

[@stylis666]

@@xxgmehhhejkdkkjjfctsxxsjjj5194 ROFL XD Cameron - honesty Obviously, you don't know the man. Intellectual dishonesty is what his channel is built on and maintained with. Any decency from his side is pretense to manipulate and hold over your head as leverage and a threat and I'm not sure if he learned that from the bible or if he is a sociopath and just uses the bible as a cover, but the result is exactly the same.

[@xxgmehhhejkdkkjjfctsxxsjjj5194]

@Trolltician "Athetard"

[@ElectricQualia]

Hijab is a joke, who should wear hijab.

[@FakingANerve]

55:00 "Saying we can't understand suffering without Jesus is like saying we can't understand cancer without chemotherapy." Savagely brilliant!

[@trelkel3805]

The whole Christian argument relies on all that horrible pointless suffering is totally worth it because of a Heaven which I can't prove. If you buy that argument you are a Christian if you don't you are not.

[@goodluckgorsky3413]

It’s called Superstitio, belief in an unprovable phenomenon that hurts one’s physical existence

[@myrhh2260]

Guess it’s still a better alternative to thinking all the suffering you endure in this life was totally meaningless and will never meet any justices in the end

[@giantopinionsports6119]

@@myrhh2260 you can create your own meaning. Family and friends or bettering lives of living creatures. You don't need an invisible master.

[@brandonallen2369]

@@myrhh2260 I don't think that burning an imperfect being you created for a finite crime infinitely is a better alternative , not would I want to follow a being that thinks that's hunky dory . That god is a dick .

[@jarroddavid8352]

Can you prove evolution? Big bang theory? Relativity? You don’t understand how things work if you’re using the word “prove.”

[@NoelRayland]

Believers begin from the point of being in a world where there is a loving, heavenly father who is the very definition of goodness and then go about conjuring up scenarios that justify all the suffering in the world. But starting from a point without theological suppositions, it would be unlikely to arrive at that conclusion. Michael seems to be desperately trying to excuse the horrors of existence on Earth, as Alex suggested, because the existence of this god is not in question. Michael's arguments do not ring true.

[@phileas007]

yup - that's what we call apologetics :)

[@carlosz.5460]

You mean, because it almost seems like you forget we are living in this world already, that all this suffering and evil exists and you can’t ever do something about it because you’ll die one day and be forgotten forever and your dust of this world with all your memories will disappear forever. Let this be the case, you choose the true pain of this world and deny the love of God because of your pity subjective anger. You live in a miserable world, there will never be enough you could do to end all suffering, diseases, murder, disorder, chaos, natural disaster. You may try, but the work will never be completed, you fail to understand that truly in your world view there is absolutely no point in even trying, why waste another second in this world then? The devil deceived you my friend, you’ve been deceived to hate God and love yourself, you have been deceived to follow darkness over the light. Humble yourself and try to understand the love of God, I know it’s hard but I believe through prayer and the fire of the Holy Spirit you can learn to understand

[@NoelRayland]

@@carlosz.5460 What kind of father will watch his children suffer when he has the power to help them?

[@carlosz.5460]

You make a good point yet you failed to realize he already has and always has been helping, he gave us his one and only son so that we may not perish but have ever lasting life. Jesus Christ is a gift from God you deny and get mad at God when you don’t get what you want! Gods love is more powerful than our suffering, we fail realize it. We deny his love because of our arrogance

[@carlosz.5460]

Noel Rayland God is real, this is why you’re mad at the world and mad at him, but I promise if you seek Gods wisdom you will find it and you will have peace. The devil wants you convinced he isn’t real, he wants you to perish without Jesus and wants you to believe God is evil.

[@dxcfgvbhjnkmdtrfygtvjbhk713]

The funny thing about the Lord of the Rings is that the heroes fail. There is no “law of triumph.” The point is that even the most virtuous person can not withstand the corruption of power, but evil does destroy itself by accident. Evil isn’t defeated because the heroes can become moral paragons, but because evil is self-destructive.

[@daviddeida]

Yes,the author was a Christian.Thats very wise btw

[@ina7084]

Beautifully said. Now I have to rewatch

[@Thrawnmulus]

Ah yes, my husband beats me because he loves me

[@Dom_theskeptic]

Lol good one

[@Applefreak52]

He is soul building you /s

[@TheCommun3]

"LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO"

[@Hscaper]

He beats me, too ;)

[@mystery6411]

Strawman

[@elvancor]

- Keep in mind there's a heaven ! - Suffering is temporary ! - Near death experiences let people peak into heaven ! - People in hell like to be in hell ! - Suffering is a consequence of free will! Nope, I'm out. Can't even get through the opening statement and lost all hope there's gonna be something to take away form this debate.

[@sad-pt7xd]

If people in hell like being in hell, Pascal’s wager is an even weaker argument lmao

[@elvancor]

@joey joestar Just like you "know" a lot about my default state, huh? What can I say except: you're wrong, and accusing your opponent of being close-minded is a very poor defense of your own arguments. I'm always ready to be pleasantly surprised by discussions like these, even IF I don't expect to be convinced. With this one, I could've given up at "remember there's a heaven" (completely baseless assertion and besides the point), but kept watching until he brought up free will (illogical concept). Libertarian free will is always employed save the narrative of God punishing us, but it isn't a thing. If a believer still thinks it is, it's not gonna go anywhere.

[@vhawk1951kl]

There are no " near death experiences" but an abundance of liars and self -deceivers

[@brophwyd]

Inspiring Philosophy has always been a hack and a moron

[@risafey]

Also, the suffering with continue in Heaven too, as Jones says toward the end of the debate... So what the hell is he harping on about suffering being temporary? Nothing he said makes coherent sense. Although it's obvious he tried inventing his own Christian lore in order to make sense of everything, and he failed in that endeavor.

[@jamesdettmann94]

Frank Turek 2009: let's call it evil. Where does evil come from? Christopher Hitchens: religion.

[@poplionandrew5803]

Evil comes from Sociology of Religion, not religion.

[@stylis666]

@@poplionandrew5803 Your mom.

[@poplionandrew5803]

@@stylis666 How do you know What you know?

[@LoaThunder]

According to your own logic then, evil comes from humans. Because religion came from humans. Also, Htichens in that debate completely misunderstood the moral argument as Alex also recognized.

[@jamesdettmann94]

@@LoaThunder yes evil does come from humans and it holds less moral weight than people assume it's simply making wrong decisions and brainwashing people which results in potentially violent acts and an unequal society which could be defined as evil or simply wrong

[@socrates4509]

To Answer the Lord of The Rings question, we like suffering in literature because we suffer in reality. It's more realistic

[@gao123_89]

I don't think that fully grasps it

[@socrates4509]

@@gao123_89 How so? We don't like reading about a man with no troubles or problems because our lives are troubled and problematic.

[@gao123_89]

@@socrates4509 When you watch someone make a foolish mistake and fall down, it triggers dopamine in the brain and you laugh. We are interested in learning from the mistakes of others. It's less about realism and more about trying to map danger and resolve danger virtually. If you can learn it through a 3rd party, then you won't die and that is an evolutionary bonus. Therefore evolution rewards those who like books based on overcoming trials.

[@gao123_89]

Woman, historically are the last to face danger, so they get less of an evolutionary bonus from action novels. But women need to solve romantic problems if they want to maintain resources and protection for their kids. Hence, evolution motivates women to read romance novels.

[@goodnightmyprince6734]

@@gao123_89 I must bo broken then, mate

[@artistryartistry7239]

It makes absolutely no sense. He's basically saying that anything that happens, no matter how horrible, is ultimately good, or at least necessary, as it creates opportunities for virtue. Taken to its logical conclusion, there is no evil or suffering so great that man should be spared from it -- from an all loving god -- lest mankind be robbed the "opportunity" to benefit from it. I mean it's basically an absurd argument that's conveniently able to explain away any and all human suffering by ultimately redefining evil essentially AS a good thing: from good things do good things come. As an added bonus, he gets to claim that the balance sheet is settled after death in heaven, and conveniently of course, no one has any damned clue what happens after we die, but he gets to assert the only scenario that undergirds his argument.

[@onesquirrel2713]

The first thing that came to my mind when his thing about the "triumph of virtue" where he claims that no matter how much suffering something causes it will always be offset by god in the end and lead to an even greater amount of good. If that was the case, it would be morally more virtuous to kill 10 people instead of saving the lifes of 10 people. In the former case, god will take care that the overall good is greater than if those 10 people had not been killed, maybe as if 11, 100 or 1000 lifes had been saved. In the latter case, the overall amount of good is just the amount that is avoided by not killing 10 people.

[@mohamedyusuf5141]

Fair enough but what else were you expecting he'd say? (I disagree with him btw)

It's absolutely true that religious advocates/apologists actually don't think that evil/suffering exists in the first place because everything that occurs does so under the purview of god !? These types of "debates" or whatever you want to call them are ABSURD to begin with because the whole discourse is based on the assumption that god exists in the first place . Getting into arguments & engaging in discourse based on the supposed existence of a very conveniently unseen entity/being is extremely troubling to say the least . Is this the height of so called intellectual discourse ? Religious apologists deal in nothing apart from sophistry & rhetoric pure & simple .

[@petrolhead1523]

If God doesn't exist, then there is ultimately no reason that people go through suffering. In the end it's all vanity, because everything just goes back into one place, the ground. However, God revealed himself to humanity through Jesus Christ, and He showed us that his will is to save everyone on this planet from what's to come.

[@petrolhead1523]

@ You did not come from nowhere.

[@chansetwo]

"The only people in hell are people that want to be there." Comments like this makes is difficult to take theists' seriously. It makes one feel one is wasting one's time entertaining the theist.

[@mazuzu3880]

Everyday, thousands and thousands of innocent children suffer and die because of incurable deceases. God is either imoral or incompetent.

[@nathanmckenzie904]

You forgot another I word... imaginary

[@RemixedVoice]

26000 children starve to death every day. Not joking.

[@carlosz.5460]

The problem is you fail to understand this world is only for a moment, unfortunately those children did suffer but God made it possible for them to go to heaven anyways. Of course you don’t see it that way, maybe you don’t believe in heaven or an after life, but that also means you have to accept thousands of children die and then disappear forever! How can you accept that fact? If there is no god you’re living in a world in which diseases do exist and kill thousands of children everyday and you suffer alongside others for absolutely no reason, in your eyes this world is for nothing but a moment of pleasure with immeasurable suffering. You choose to exist in a world void of love and purpose, but God doesn’t want you to. You may be angered at God, but you can’t deny the fact you have a choice. Either you stay angry at God and then die and truly suffer forever or learn to accept God and that God is love though you may not fully understand how he operates. Humble yourself brother

[@mazuzu3880]

@@carlosz.5460 your god is either incompetent or imoral, you chose.

[@carlosz.5460]

Ma zuzu no he’s neither, you fail to understand God that’s why you hate him, he loves you and wants you to have a relationship with him but the devil really has a hold of your mind, that’s why you’re even convicted to try to disprove the truth.

[@jabberwocky7745]

I have experienced dreams that have stuck with me since many years. I can still feel the fear, pain and other emotions from those dreams, and I would say they have changed me in some way. So even if reality is some dreamlike state, it is having permanent effects and leaving scars on my psyche.

[@daviddeida]

Sure I dont think he is saying it to dismiss the experience..Maybe pointing to the dreamer who has not suffered in dreams when it has awoken.

[@Mymle]

There is also a point to move on from suffering and find a greater meaning to life. That way you won’t contemplate on past experiences or dwell in suffering but you move on from them

[@Never-mind1960]

Whenever I hear the term "debate" used for an apologist's arguments, I know what it really means is excuse layering.

[@daddyleon]

Are those excuses always fallacies?

[@myothersoul1953]

@@daddyleon Not all are fallacies, some are fantasies, extra premises that have to be added to make the argument work.

[@daddyleon]

@@myothersoul1953 but those can just as well be fallacies too, couldn't they?

[@myothersoul1953]

@@daddyleon Many are fallacies but that's not the only problem an argument can have.

[@rebanx1]

Exactly.....every aspect of every religion rests entirely on the need for faith-(belief without evidence, intending to nullify critical thought via indoctrination). 'Apologetics' is a fitting word for the desperate and slippery arguments now required to actually defend 'faith' in an unseen,unprovable,invisible ,supernatural sky man (that some fellow primates claim to know the mind of). It is a position that has already been debunked, purely by the observation of the thousands of contradictory religions ( and fractions of religions all disagreeing with each other) throughout the world,.... add to that the many 'killer' scientific facts about reality we are now aware of, basically rendering all superstitious /religious claims and notions obsolete in the last few hundred years

[@WUWHere]

Jones lost me at 7:25 when he stated that skeptics will quibble about the suffering endured by children who die young without acknowledging that the child’s consciousness will live on in eternity, by which I suppose he means heaven? Good grief, what if there is no afterlife? What if the kid isn’t Christian or baptized or, God forbid, is a precocious atheist? Perhaps to add insult to injury the dead kid’s consciousness will spend eternity in Hell?

[@Richard_Nickerson]

Well, if there is a god, then they obviously do allow evil since evil undeniably exists. What is the point of this debate?

[@EddySaints]

Like the same omnipotent god that knew Adam and Eve would eat the fruit and he would have to punish them. Why put the fruit around to begin with. Pure evil imo.

[@LoaThunder]

Because the title is shortened, it basically is about why God would allow evil. We can make a point for or against existence, if the answer to the question "would god allow evil" is no then it disproves God as there is evil.

[@swazilandandbotswana8856]

The point is that is there any good reasons why god would allow evil. You atheists claim to be so smart, but some of you can’t think for shit.

[@LoaThunder]

@@swazilandandbotswana8856 the nature of humans, most of them are straight up dumb.

[@swazilandandbotswana8856]

LoaThunder They also like to stick to there biases. I feel like atheists can sometimes be more biased than Muslims.

[@hanansheikh5016]

Watched this live on Capturing Christianity's channel. This was an interesting debate. Alex was on top in my opinion.

[@LoaThunder]

An opinion is worthless if you don't give reasons for it.

[@匕卄モ匕卄丹れKち]

Alex always is because Michael Jones is just a professional dishonest liar who has never stated anything true.

[@mariaangelova8275]

Absolutely!

[@匕卄モ匕卄丹れKち]

Trolltician your just one of his brain dead followers that believes everything he says. Once again everything he claims in defense of his cult has never been true just what he so badly wants to be true.

[@AsixA6]

_"Alex was on top in my opinion."_ So, Mike's a bottom. Got it.

[@dorksouls978]

Michael gives the best argument against heaven that I've ever heard between 40:15 and 42:33.

[@TrevorAugustine]

I just see these as exercises in how far religious apologists can go. They have usually 1-5 main texts it's all based off (Because anything they, themselves rationalize isn't the "word of god". [So why bother?]) VS. the slowly ever-expanding horizons of what we understand. The thing is they sometimes bring up some gold nuggets of rationality and philosophy. It pushes it forward, so I say keep the debates coming!

[@macguffinmuffin1156]

What the hell is Inspiring Philosophy smoking?!

[@macguffinmuffin1156]

It's so powerful it makes even my skin crawl hearing him saying what he says in this video.

[@bjrnarbjrnarsson5845]

Incense?

[@augusto7886]

DMT rolled with papers from a bible

[@TheSurpremeLogician]

@@augusto7886 lmao was about to comment that

[@NotGoodAtNamingThings]

Wait. Holy shit. 11:00 "God desired people to live with him in an Eden setting." Is IP a young Earth creationist? Does he believe Genesis is literal, not metaphorical? If so, this discussion is a total waste of time. Edit: I went and watched his Genesis 1 video and he's not a young Earth creationist, nor is he a literalist. That's a relief. It means I don't understand what he means at 11:00. Maybe he'll explain later in the video.

[@utubepunk]

Isn't he just saying that's what god originally intended before man went & fucked it up?

[@iUseVegas]

dude is trying to say that humanity elected to live without god because adam and eve were setup to fail...

[@NotGoodAtNamingThings]

@@utubepunk - That only makes sense if you literally believe the Adam and Eve story. If you see the story as metaphor or myth, it doesn't make sense.

[@utubepunk]

@@NotGoodAtNamingThings Uh. Okay? Most normie Christians do.

[@NotGoodAtNamingThings]

@@utubepunk - Almost none of the Christians I know believe Genesis is literal truth. I know that in America, almost half the population believes Noah's flood is a literal event, but American Christians are peculiar in that. Worldwide, most Christians don't see Genesis as a literal history.

[@hillelfinder428]

Someone please correct me if these seems like too much of an oversimplification (or if I'm misremembering from the original debate), but IP's argument seems to boil down to: *God allows evil and suffering because, after recovering, the individual is more emotionally, mentally, and spiritually mature, which allows God to have a more substantial relationship with them later.* -Firstly, this seems to entirely neglect the concept of lasting trauma. There is some suffering from which an individual never recovers, say after extreme physical or mental torment, from which the individual is afterward in a worse state than beforehand. -Next, IP initially says that all Earthly torment is eclipsed by the joys of being in heaven after one dies (ignoring all those who end up endlessly suffering in hell). However, he later says that suffering is allowed in heaven, citing a war which happens there. These two seem to contradict. -This view paints God as incredibly vindictive; subjecting individuals to a wide range of suffering simply because it means they will eventually make for better relationship-material with Him later down the line. In fact, it seems to be the same attitude as Jigsaw. Again, if I've got any of this wrong or if I'm missing some nuance, please say so. I very much enjoyed listening to the debate. Great to see such respect between everyone involved.

[@FAISALN0]

Lol fair enough seems p accurate

[@andreab380]

I agree with your points. In addition to the problem of trauma, there is the Christian idea that some evils are unredeemable: people end up forever in hell due to the moral limitations they have developed during their lives. How is the possibility of permanent evil a requirement for moral evolution? This seems completely nonsensical to me. Moreover, if God is the only real Goodness, as Christians should believe, then the creation of anything besides itself is by definition the introduction of at least "some" evil. This also does not seem to make much sense - the Neoplatonist idea of a necessary emanation or creative overflowing makes more sense. Finally, my only objection would be to your last point: assuming for the sake of argument that the idea that suffering is soul-building is valid, and that God remains pure goodness, then God wanting you to improve yourself for the sake of a relationship with him/her/it simply means Goodness aiming to increase the amount of goodness in several individuals, which is coherent and even aesthetically beautiful. It's the foundation of the argument (suffering is good because it is soul-building) that is wrong, not this particular conclusion.

[@daviddeida]

Let me put it this way..Everyone is bigger than there trauma is the point.True some choose to hold onto it for reasons only they can identify.If you are love at the very core,everything you do that is not love, you will suffer until you recognize what is love.

[@sgracem2863]

@@daviddeida You are incredibly ignorant

[@hitesh8383]

We should face suffering to be stronger physically and mentally... And we should be strong physically and mentally to be ablr to face more suffering... Ever heard of circular argument...?

[@eileenmiller9914]

My sister had cancer and survived. I think she is amazing. I thought she was amazing before she had cancer. I would prefer that she never experienced it. Where is the justification for the suffering she endured? There isn't any.

[@Korb-Bee]

Its actually really nice having timers in the top right lol.

[@nitehawk86]

"I got over my childhood abuse, so childhood abuse is no big deal." *What the actual fuck?*

[@jackmichaelpeter]

Here’s one: if a malicious god was the god which existed, would he not create this very world and disguise it with all the realities of the justifications for a benevolent god which Michael makes, in order to trick the world into believing a benevolent god existed?

[@charmendro]

Hello there Jack, I wanted to respectcully reply: I think this would be contradictory, U start this pre-supposing that God adheres to your subjective morality of what is considered good and what is considered evil. I like to point out that if we assume there is a god, then that would imply that he is the higher power from which morality and definitions of good and evil are derived, therefore in this hypothetical reality that you proposed, this way of life is what would constitute as good. This is because if God is the ultimate and infinite being, then He is what is to be defined as the ultimate "good" (quotes for lack of better word). Goodnesss is nothing more than the standard of what god is in any hypothetical reality. Thanks for reading mate. I hope to hear from u soon because i enjoy debate (hopefully a respectful one though).

[@hgnisnhoj]

Why should an evil god trick us into beliving he is good ? The idea of a good god makes us feel better and gives us sense in life and advantages like supporting morality.

[@xXthevenomousXx]

@@hgnisnhoj Because many religious people cause suffering in their quest to worship a "Benevolent" God. I'm just saying, that could be justification for his idea, not that I agree either way. If any God exists, good or evil, he didn't actually leave any evidence of that.

[@jackmichaelpeter]

Jesus From Hyrule Jesus From Hyrule hey Jesus, Interesting. So if a monotheistic god is the defined as the barometer of good, or sets the standard, then is it not possible that our subjective understanding of good and evil may be entirely wrong, as you suggested it may, as we cannot rely on it to understand this god. If our understanding of good and evil may or may not be entirely unaligned with an ultimate being, then that ultimate beings ultimate ‘good’ may be what we understand to be evil. And further to that, this ultimate beings expression of ultimate good may be to trick us into believing that evil is good and good is evil. I see no logical inconsistencies in that.

[@jackmichaelpeter]

hgnisnhoj perhaps that god wishes to make us suffer in believing that there is a good god, only for us to discover that there is no good god, and as a result, experience the ultimate suffering and betrayal

[@enlightenedchipmunk2001]

Alex is so many steps ahead, that he ended up making arguments against his own points, under the assumption that this is how his debate opponent would respond. But honestly, I think he overplayed his hand, because the guy would have been stumped immediately.

[@richardmcvicker840]

If there's an omniscient god, then before Adam was created, he knew he would eat the apple. He knewour destinies. He knows all the evils that would be done, as well as the good ie. God was the creator of all the Jews being killed. All the murders and tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, and through it all, we've no say in any of the actions as they've all been mapped out before that bite of the fruit

[@danielashekun7001]

Greg Pincus exactly, and I give Christians the example of peter denial of Jesus but no one responds

[@danielashekun7001]

Greg Pincus My brother who is a “modern Christian” sort of argues that God only knows the future of those that worship him in spirit, so basically he claims that Gods level of ominous Cir fr is that if u follow him u end up in heaven, and if u don’t follow him u end up in hell,. And am like 😒, then everyone “knows all” if that’s all ur God can do

[@danielashekun7001]

Greg Pincus my family is Christian based, my dad is even a pastor lol. But my grandfather from my dad side was a cultist

[@danielashekun7001]

Greg Pincus my elder brother which I told u about also had problem with his faith but he chose to reconcile by going to my dad and other pastor for guidance. But I as u can tell did not got through that instead I tried to reason out my faith and I have not yet ruled out the possibility of a God

[@danielashekun7001]

Greg Pincus and yes I have been thinking also about the free will issue lol, am glad to see someone else in my shoe, and also the problem of evil has was the main issue I had with my faith over 4 years ago

[@jabberwocky7745]

Question: is it "fair" (i.e. "just") that someone else's suffering is used to make *me* a better person? For example, a child's cancer and death is purported to "soul build" the parents. Also, what about suffering of beings that can't understand or be "improved" by that suffering?

[@dalanology]

Yeah, it's bonkers.

[@maddiea-t6n]

Simple answer: god doesn’t exist

[@Redhunteur2]

Not a benevolent God. The end. That was two hours 9 minutes and 29 seconds shorter then this debate had to be.

[@philb4462]

One of IP's arguments on suffering is that the afterlife is so good it makes suffering of this life irrelevant in the long term (7:24), yet he goes on to say that there is suffering in heaven too and wars are fought there (7:24). So now he has a whole new thing to argue for: Why would God allow suffering in heaven?

[@TheBestOne_hi_34]

More like “Why would God remove his presence?“ Because technically heaven would be a place in his presence which is the best Presence you can ever be in from this View. In my opinion I feel like more people in debate should really remember the presence of God whether if they believe it or not.

[@philb4462]

@@TheBestOne_hi_34 How does somebody remember God's presence if they don't believe in God?

[@lane3574]

Great job bringing animal suffering to the table in that second refutation. It is by far the greatest problem for the theist arguing against the problem of evil.

[@lizzygriffiths2365]

Alex's answer to the scuicide question was great, Michael's basically said exactly what Alex said not to say

[@mattt.4395]

what is "scuicide"?

[@chickenpiie5028]

@@mattt.4395 suicide

[@AirChurch]

I thoroughly enjoyed this exchange.

[@hiimjosh868]

Hey, this isn't about the video (I came from another) but I just wanted to thank you for all the content you put on KZbin and for all the patience you have when dealing with people in debates. Since stumbling upon your channel a while back I've become a bit of a skeptic myself. I hope your channel continues to grow so more people think about these sorts of things!

[@dreadfulspiller8766]

Isaiah 45 verse 7 says god creates evil.

[@siraf1234]

But why

[@sobakakustovsky3909]

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

[@sobakakustovsky3909]

Then who needs the devil with such a God?

[@dreadfulspiller8766]

@@sobakakustovsky3909 There is no devil in Judaism and also no original sin or hell.

[@bromponie7330]

No, it doesn't. The word is better translated as calamity (as most modern translations do, see NET for example). Stop choosing the weaker Bible translations (KJV) to make an argument. Please edit & correct your comment.

[@artistryartistry7239]

Let's also appreciate that Cosmic Skeptic's opening statement was all stream of conscious speaking, while his opposition's opening statement was pre-written.

[@ethanm.2411]

That's completely false. Alex's opening statement was also pre-written - just look at his eyes while he's speaking, especially at 27:00. It's just that he's a really fluent speaker.

[@artistryartistry7239]

@@ethanm.2411 You don't know what you're talking about, and you apparently don't know what "completely false means." He clearly has notes which he looks at, but he's not reading from something. There are several times, even after your time stamp where he's clearly NOT looking at anything, and is looking around as he's speaking.

[@ethanm.2411]

@@artistryartistry7239 _"He clearly has notes which he looks at, but he's not reading from something."_ Ah, I suppose his notes were written in thin air? Anyway, this point is irrelevant. My point is that Alex's opening statement was also pre-written and not "all stream of conscious speaking." I mean, it _was_ conscious, but you get what I mean. And the reason that Alex wasn't only looking at his notes was the same reason IP wasn't always looking at his notes - they probably knew the points they wanted to make and could do it without reference to their notes. And honestly, do you really think that everything Alex said just sprang forth from his head? Just listen to his opening statement - it was clearly well-planned.

[@utubepunk]

@Trolltician You called Alex dumb! GOTEM.

[@utubepunk]

Eh. It's a formal debate with time limits so both preplanned their points. Maybe Alex delivered it more fluidly, but you shouldn't value presentation over substance.

[@lorenzmueller2355]

Michael: "I'm not omniscient..." "There will be animals in Heaven."

[@randominterestingvideos4733]

I think he said it based on the bible. The bible makes it clear that there are animals in heaven. For instance, look at the story of Elijah going to heaven on a chariot from heaven. Those horses were animals from heaven

[@kingo8914]

@@randominterestingvideos4733 Imagine being a horse and dying and then just living the rest of eternity as a chariot for some human

[@Outlavvw]

Reading through the comment section makes me feel good. I wasn't the only one that making faces at the stuff Jones was saying. I am concerned that he genuinely lives life thinking that way.

[@LinaGuadagnuolo63]

What does this comment even mean?

[@DarayaVahu]

I remember a lot of my childhood suffering and it still affects me every day, there is no day I don't think about it and how ridiculous it was, how strong and pointless, I haven't learned anything from it only to hate everyone that abused me and the most god, I could have been such an asset for god if not the suffering, I had so many dreams about serving him, like being a priest was one of the ideas, but now I'm just a person with a ton of mental disorders like depression and anxiety stuck in fight or flight, terrified 24/7, stuck in my tiny room 99% percent of the last 10 years, basically completely alone, only my sister has some compassion to take me grocery shopping, and now all my dreams to fix the world turned into dreams of exploding everything like the whole multiverse, all dimensions including god so there is no single atom left, not many people have the time to overthink as I do and even how much I wanted do belive god is good he's pure evil, and I see it so clear now, our suffering is just entertainment for him. I wasn't like the other kids, I never understood how they have the capability to be cruel, I was extremely sensitive and the suffering made me kinda evil I guess since I can't handle the memories that I wish to kill god, coz the christian guy was saying how his childhood pain doesn't affect him now, or I completely misunderstood him because I'm also doing laundry right now while listening to this

[@yasselesca]

I'm sorry to hear this. Really hope you will find a way to get better. The world isn't fair.

[@Mudrc125]

Oh, finally someone who get's it. Thankfully, my life wasn't that bad, even though it did sometimes bring up thoughts of sucide... But that's not the point i want to make. I feel with you and i am really sorry that anyone have to go through anything like that. And i actually get your anger at god. I wanted to be his priest too and yes i got through depression. I also did some overthinking in my recent past. (It's actually only few months after i am considering myself as cured from depresion) I want to tell you what helped me. I'm not implying that it will help you, i just want to share. So, i grew up as a christian. At year of 13 i read a book from Jan van Helsing, with is pseudonym for writer in Germany, which made me look at the world with different eyes. And i start to see problems in Christianity. The longer it took the more anger i had for god, just as you have right now. I wanted to destroy whole world, just to stop all the pain in it. One of many problems was my family, which wouldn't be probably considered that bad, but in which no one actually cared about the others. Or no one was able to listen. When my self-valuation began to decrese beyond reasonable point, i didn't have any way to make it better. So, as you can imagine, it got worse. It got me to point where i really wanted to end my life. I didn't, beacuse of all stupid believes and ideas i had. The only thing i ever wanted was understanding and helping family. (With my parents... almost impossible) I spent 6 years of my life trying to figure out, how to do it... Plus puberty and more and more harder school, well you get the picture. Everything was worse and worse. And now i am out of this. How? Well this is simple. There is noone in the universe who will help me. Absolutely no one. My relationspih with God... I can respect him, but i will never love him again, beacuse he is a liar. He tells us how good he is, but he isn't. He is the one who can be found resposible in every sigle crime ever commited in the world. Beacuse there is a law, that you have to stop a crime or tell a police about it, if there is no harm in it to you. So does God deserves hell... definitely. And i wouldn't mind at all if he end up there. But i would mind if any person in the world ends in hell. Obejctivly no human is capable of commiting crime that should deserve infinte torture. Yeah, right now we are getting in results of my overthinking. So what i am conviced right now about this topic, that anyone who is fine with idea, that there is a human, that will suffer somewhere forever, which is traditional way of thinking about hell in christianity, mainly catolicism, is a monster. I recently talked about it with somone (my uncle with my grandma) And they said to me, that God will make it possible to be happy, while there is somone, you may even love, suffering. Last drop... I don't want to do anything with this religion anymore. I will not allow myself to become monster, just because it's easyier. We both now that the thing we hate about the world the most is pain and suffering to the effect of actuall destruction of the world to eliminate it. And Christians say, thet the God will make us accept that pain and be fine with it. Not ours, but people that we care about. Even if we don't know them. That's horrible idea in my vision. So my answer to God is... I can respect you as an more powerful beeing, but that's all. I can't do anything about you, so stay who you are, but i don't want do anything with you. The last thing i want to talk about is, that i start to believe, that there is no reason at all to everything in this world. The suffering has no reason, the joy have no reason. It just exists beacues it does. I want to live good life, and be good person, not beacuse there is someone more powerful than me, who wants that. I want to be that good person, beacuse i will feel good about it. I can be sure, that i will help with improving this world for the better, even though the world doesn't have a meaing in the first place. Maybe it will help you too... There is noone else in your life who will change something. There is noone else outside of your life who will change anythnig. There is nothing useful and fun after you die, maybe even nothing. So, just think about it. If there is noone else who can do anything in youre life, it means, that you have all the power. Decide for yourself what you want. Trust me, no one can actaully stop you. If you decide to act badly, it is your choice. You know the consequences of you actions. If you decide to help poeple like me make world better, you can do that. In your way. There is no god to tell you how to think or what to do. Maybe you did something what you think is wrong. And tell me... Is there anyone else who actually cares about it beside you? You are in terrible place in your life... so think about the things you want to be. You have time to overthink, well do it. And let your life, yourself and your impact on the world be the topic. You may talk about lack of motivation... I recently heard what motivation really is. You can try to use it. Motivation is just the ability to hold one thought for long period of time. Like focus on one thing, one simple goal and you will see if you find yourself doing it more than before. So again. It's your life. And you are the one who decides what will happen with it. No god, no other pesron. Only you. If you decide to stay where you are, that's valid desicion too. But i think that you will do something else in the end. Maybe one small thing... But still i want to thank you. Thank you not only for things you might do in the future, but aslo for giving me oportunity to understand that i wasn't alone... And that i will probably never be... So thank you so much for that... And have a good day

[@heartlover1583]

❤

[@lauraziessler1350]

Wow-- that grenade analogy is great!

[@vesper8385]

His name should be ‘Aspiring To Philosophize’ because he hasn’t come up with a good argument yet.

[@ar-jv5fc]

“Aspiring to Philosophy One Day”

[@vesper8385]

That's what I meant thanks

[@TheMeefive]

That's because he actually ignores Christian doctrine which clearly states that humanity "chose" evil and brought suffering and death into the world.

[@TheMeefive]

davud Having taught the biblical doctrine that evil was a choice that man made rather than something God thrust upon us I was not impressed with anything Alex stated on the matter. Each one of his opening arguments are clearly dealt with in the bible. It has never been a biblical contention that evil was ever necessary.

[@thevoteman]

TheMeefive is God omnipotent or not?

[@xXxTeenSplayer]

You know someone is a Christian when they say that giving a homeless person a dollar is a bad thing. He captured his essence perfectly there.

[@mattr.1887]

I'm not Christian, and I don't give homeless people money.

[@dimitris_zaha]

You know someone is an atheist when they completely miss/ignore the whole point

[@anandita5554]

50:20 yes, Michael kept saying "intrinsically virtue is good" Well, its not. Its only as good as the level of suffering and whether there is any suffering related to it in the first place. We dont need heroes at the cost of suffering. We would much rather prefer a world without suffering as opposed to one with immeasurable suffering and heroes who are only limited in their powers. Especially when Michael argues that there is an all powerful God.

[@daviddeida]

Would you prefer a world only of love,or are you entertained by what is preventing love.

[@ibelizjoel]

What the Christian seems to say is that evil is ok because God aloud it and it has its reasons for it. If he aloud suffering he can also stop it but he doesn't want to. Are we his Guinea pigs?. He also said that there could be wars in heaven, and I wonder why do we want to go there then?

[@Sam_on_YouTube]

I made the argument in my Religion and Region class as a Freshman 20 years ago that the marginal value of the next deer that dies in a forest fire is so diminished, while the suffering of that deer remains the same as the suffering of the first deer, that it is inherently going to be more evil than is nevessary.

[@tochoXK3]

When IP described the "dystopia" of a world with no suffering, I actually thought "Sounds good, I'd like to live there."

[@TaeyxBlack]

my thought was that it sounds like the heaven they’re working so hard to get to. it’s mind-boggling how heaven is supposed to be this perfect, always good experience, but if we were to experience that on earth, it’d be terrible

[@avivastudios2311]

​@@TaeyxBlackThe idea is that we must face trials that build character before we go to heaven. I think that's what he's getting at.

[@johndoesstuff352]

@@TaeyxBlack how would u know what a good experience is if u never were free to choose

[@SupachargedGaming]

In defence of "IP" he doesn't seem to have the same opinion of heaven and hell. From his description, to me at least, Hell sounds more akin to the typically described "Perfect Heaven". Heaven, from his description, "has suffering. Has war. Has free will." whereas hell is "locked from the inside, yet nobody ever leaves." almost as if they have no reason to leave. From his description, "They cannot bear the suffering of heaven" -shrug- it's amazing the places people will go to defend their beliefs. They will abandon everything they hold dear about their beliefs in order to justify their beliefs, and then use that justification to justify that which they have abandoned.@@TaeyxBlack

[@TaeyxBlack]

@@SupachargedGaming by my estimation, IP’s beliefs are christian only in name. the things he believes would have made christian-me raise several eyebrows. it’s like he took parts of mormonism, catholicism, and various cs lewis novels to try to plug the logical holes in vanilla christianity but ended up creating some unrecognizable chimera that your average christian would call blasphemy

[@Tr3xxx123]

I don’t understand why religious apologists insist on putting limits on god. Yes, suffering does often lead to more virtuous people, but that’s only because our reality operates that way. God is supposed to be all powerful, so why propose that he can only work within the limits of our existence? If he created us this way, then surely he could’ve also done it in a way that wouldn’t require suffering.

[@daviddeida]

I think the point is we put limits on our capacity to love and suffer as a result.

[@leonkootstra6301]

you were really on fire there, great debate 👌 . alternative arguments i want to get out of my head: i think that if god created us, he's responsible for us in the same way a parent is. we all would find a parent despicable if they let their child run into traffic because the child has free will, since god knows the consequences of his inaction even more than a normal parent, god would be even more despicable. . removing bad choices doesn't mean there's no free will too, neutral and good choices still exist regardless even if we stretch evil to be everything that's not the absolute best, there would still be choice since some choices are simply the same

[@camipco]

Yes. Adding to this, if we assume an all powerful creator god, he has already limited our choices. we do not have unlimited free will. I do not have the freedom to do many evil things, like I cannot enact maximum evil such as causing everybody else infinite suffering just with a thought, despite the fact that an omniscient god could create a universe that would allow me the free will to do such an act. So god has already removed many bad choices, limiting our free will in the process. In fact, if we imagine the possible space of all the evil that could be conceived of if humans had unlimited free will to commit evil, that seems a much larger space than the evil that humans are in fact capable of in this world. So god has removed most of our free will to commit evil, why not remove just a little more?

[@Mudrc125]

I always play with one thought... Maybe the only one who truly deserves hell (eternal suffering) is God himself.

[@galaxychar]

I agree with your point but not the analogy you’re using. You let a child make ‘bad’ choices or they don’t learn and are sheltered to the world. You obviously don’t let them be in danger, but it’s pretty essential to their development that they see the consequences of some of their poor decison making. Again, on your side just think this parenting analogy doesn’t work.

[@leonkootstra6301]

@@galaxychar while i agree with allowing children to make their own mistakes, the mistake in question was too severe to allow a child to make. according to the bible it not only lead to people doing evil, but also made them vulnerable to the dangers from those actions being done as well. choosing to let this happen is NOT responsible parenting in the slightest. god had every opportunity to let them have free will without such urges, he is omniscient after all, but choose to include those in the mistake made.

[@Annickicki]

I thought that both participants did really well in the first half. As an atheist, I was particularly impressed with Michael since I am so used to hearing the same (poor) arguments over and over again from apologists that his arguments were refreshing. I did feel like Michael lost a lot of ground in the second half when answering questions. Without the structure of the debate, it seems like logical inconsistencies crept in with a number of the arguments he made in his actual debate sections.

[@counterpoiseag6068]

Genetically Modified Skeptic, Rationality Rules, Holy Koolaid, and Cosmic Skeptic = the 4 horsemen of my generation. ✊

[@princessrainbow4448]

Young n intelligent, good for you Alex 👍 You're a role model for young generation, hope you always humble And choose to be a kind one

[@eileenmiller9914]

Everyone doesn't overcome the suffering they endure. If god exists, why does he pick and choose who overcomes it and who doesn't. That isn't all loving.

[@25hvghfgetr6]

I think the point about the "dreamlike" nature of this life shows the underlaying insanity behind every metaphysically committed religious view. Put your hand on the stove and see what happens. Even Jordan Peterson makes this point, that suffering is the most real thing. It's impossible to question your own existence precisely when you are suffering intensely.

[@flutterwind7686]

But that begs the question, why is that preferable, why not a world without suffering and "God" in his supposed infinite powers creates a concept that makes us alive without pain. Such a God would not be omnipotent

[@bacchiguu86]

Suffering does not make everyone stronger and closer to God. People are not hiveminds - some people can handle suffering well, others cannot. As an ex-Christian, everything Inspiring Philosophy said made me so angry.

[@paulfriedman]

Haven't even started the video yet but I'm gonna go ahead and click "like" right now because I'm certain this will be a good one!

[@_Tp__]

You are my inspiration. I want to be like you when I’m older.

[@FlapMeister]

Evil has been rationalised to the point that it has to be in heaven as well. Something had to give way in this discussion. There goes the concept of heaven. Great job.

[@TaeyxBlack]

i was a christian for over 20 years, and i never heard anyone espouse the views michael has. no christian i’ve ever met believes hell is non-eternal, that you can choose to get out if you want, that there’s suffering in heaven, or anything about this whole revamping earth then moving on to perfect other planets. it’s like he mashed together christianity, mormonism, and a dash of scientology to create his worldview. i guess it helps with some logical errors in original recipe christianity, but it obviously creates a lot of its own.

[@danieleoduro3829]

​@@TaeyxBlackim a seventh day adventist a christian denomination and we don't believe in eternal hell!!

[@avantikag.2089]

I really liked your take on dealing with suicide/someone who is suicidal. It seems a lot more realistic and purposeful when you allow them the personal freedom to figure out whether suicide really is their best solution, while guiding and supporting them in every way to hopefully bring them to the conclusion, it isn't. I look forward to your video regarding the philosophical implications of death and suicide.

[@daviddeida]

Thats what the christians are saying.You have free will to decide.

[@joelmorningstar3645]

"You gotta inflict the horrid and unbearable pain to be a better person", is a great argument a psycho murderer would use just before he guts his victim and strings their entrails across the floor.

Appeal to emotions I see. You proved nothing.

[@mastone3609]

@ he is pointing out the ridiculous notion that this God creature, who is supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing, has decided that absolutely abhorrent atrocities are good for us, the victims. Without appealing to an afterlife that is unproven, it is suffering for no conceivable reason, much like someone torturing their victim, as Joel was pointing out.

[@mastone3609]

@ I will accept God and the afterlife when there is sufficient evidence to do so. Until then I reject your premise that God exists and the premise that there is an afterlife. These are bald assertions and you are avoiding the entire argument by appealing to the veil of ignorance that we couldn't possibly comprehend this figure that you have created. If there is a God, either he isn't all-powerful, isn't all-knowing, or isn't all-good. Your analogy makes no sense. I don't even understand the relevance of it. I do not assume god or the afterlife, in fact I am still waiting on the argument to be made sufficiently. Until then, I reject your premises and your points whole cloth. The entire point being made is that the god that is being proposed does not align with the world we see around is and is therefore not possible as proposed.

[@joelmorningstar3645]

@@mastone3609 There's no reasoning with people like them, that's why I couldn't be bothered to reply to him. They will create all the perfect and convenient reasons that we are disillusioned while standing in their own illusion.

@@joelmorningstar3645 You atheists are masters of projecting 😭. Stay pressed 🙈

[@artistryartistry7239]

It's incredibly convenient that the balance sheet is corrected, and all the problems of this world happen in an imaginary realm that no one has any proof of, which people can only arrive at after death. Addendum: the dead do not speak.

[@anthonynorman7545]

I definitely remember suffering from my childhood!

[@bearbro10]

Well that was cause of the devil not god

[@HeyItsKora]

1:14:00 a great example of what Orwell says about the 'political' way of speaking... Excessive and really unnecessary use of over complicated vocabulary to try to come off as being more intelligent. If you can explain something in simple terms, then do so! It's far more elegant to explain something complex in simple terms than to explain something simple in complex terms. It seems Alex agrees given he himself didn't even understand what the question was...