Debating Why The Left Is To Blame For Andrew Tate & How To Help Young Men

Thanks to ‪@TheLeftistOwl‬ for a great discussion.
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#andrewtate #redpill

[@geoffreysorkin5774]

Andrew Tate complained that there were roaches, lice, and bed bugs in his cell. I'm sure that they would prefer a different cellmate, but the roaches, lice, and bed bugs should have thought of that before they committed crimes.

[@gizmoman2388]

True

[@Cory_Springer]

That's inhumane. The roaches/lice deserve better.

[@TrentonF505]

Eh lice aren’t too bad when you’re bald

[@mercyjokes2d696]

@@Cory_Springer Andrew Taint being a parasite and this is fantastic.

[@azazel166]

He had better get used to them then, because they will be keeping him company for a long time, hopefully.

[@weehoo2]

It’s a tragedy that the side with the right answers has this, “Figure it out yourself, it’s not our job to teach you.” Attitude. And the side with the wrong answers is desperate to sell to you their narrative.

[@CourtneyHaynes]

There is a depth of feminist literature talking about patriarchy hurts both women and men. The "figure it out for yourself" only comes when a person has BEEN trying to teach people but they are either exhausted or have learned from dealing with the person they are not acting in good faith. It literally is not our job to teach anyone. And we talking strictly on the internet where no one has an obligation to you. No one is coming up to random leftists and saying "teach me about feminist theory".

[@weehoo2]

@@CourtneyHaynes I’m not talking about one on one engagement, where good vs bad faith understanding can be determined. I’m more talking about having broad/public figures who give those looking to learn in good faith an accurate picture of how human interactions work, and a basis of respect and kindness for social engagements rather than the ‘red pill’ bullshit.

[@moody9442]

whats the left wing answer for an andrew tate? why is it adults jobs to pander to 11 and12 year olds? its just straight creepy.

[@minskghoul]

@@CourtneyHaynes "There is depth of feminist *literature* " Here is the problem. Left far often communicates through academic, sci-pop and journalist media rather than ever trying to ever touch the niche of self-help 'gurus' or similar content.

[@CuZtuga]

@@CourtneyHaynes I've seen way too many discussions that go like this: right winger: This Feminist: No, this basic thing. right winger: Proof? Feminist: Look it up yourself lol it's not my job to educate you. Like, if you're gonna act like this, why are you even engaging in the first place? Because you're only making it worse. It's not just a matter of being correct, but how you speak in a way that doesn't instantly make people go in the defensive and actually listen to you. There are too many smug left wingers.

[@ernestov1777]

I recently had a painful breakup with an emotionally unavailable "girlfriend" one dude told me to get better and watch Andrew Tate videos, i told him "Bro are you out of your mind?" lmao.

[@07Flash11MRC]

You did the right thing.

[@vector3d654]

U r a superhero honestly.... It was the first word that came to my mind after reading ur comment

[@johanedfors3899]

Becoming an Andrew Tate fan is a long road of suffering disguised as fulfillment. Starting to watch him after a breakup is probably the worst thing you can do for your mental health.

[@JARV9701]

It must have felt like those moments when a surprise or scary thing takes out the hangover in a second.

[@LORD-kg4sl]

@@johanedfors3899 how is that a worst for your mental health when he teaches you to use the frustration of your break up at gym or something better,using that as a motivation and to go along the path of stalking or hating your former partner.

[@karlklein2263]

I can confidently say that as a guy when I was in college. Nothing terrified me like being called a creep. I said it was the worst thing you could be called.

[@matthewarnold4557]

I hear what you're saying. This paralyzed me in high school as well.

[@lberghaus]

I was only called a creep once, not to my face but I heard about it and it bothered me for a long time that someone would have had that perception of me. But I don’t think I ever talked to her again after that.

[@TrentonF505]

I haven’t done much socializing the past couple years, but when I did, it caused me a lot of anxiety as well

[@mutate34]

when I was at college (in the 90s) the worst thing you could be called was a virgin. Virgin was code for being one step from religious nut, n*zi, etc

[@Anvil35]

“The worst she can say is no”

[@ganth0re]

In recent memory, I read a blog about a dude that would go well out of his way to make women feel more comfortable around him by immediately lying about having a girlfriend. I understand he didn't want women to feel guarded and weird around him, but the actions he took were being celebrated by the online left and I felt really weird about it because all of his social interactions are completely based on a lie.

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

I think outing oneself as a gay guy has the same effect.

[@fortheloveofnoise]

The world is too far gone.

[@tomgl6684]

Exactly. Plus, if you were a woman and found out a guy had been lying about having a girlfriend to make you more relaxed around him, would you not be instantly more suspicious of him? FFS. Just... Just be an honest, decent person and if someone still has a problem with you, that's their fault. I swear the knots people let their personal politics tie themselves in over basic human interaction.

[@resir9807]

That is super fucked up

[@DevinMacGregor]

That probably stems from the put a ring on your finger to act like you are married. A lot of women will feel safer talking to you because you are married and there are no upfront expectations as when all are known to be single. But that is the trap. When you get to know a person more you may develop feelings for them. This guy has women talking to him and one of them is bound to want more and well, workplace fucking happens. Single person over there is going wtf? And sometimes we want things because others want them. Studies have shown that people will take longer to back out of a parking spot when they know someone is waiting for it. Having a girlfriend means someone sees value in you so there must be something about you. They could be curious to find out what that is.

[@RoseEyed]

As a woman I can relate to policing myself because I’m not sure how I’ll come off to men. I like complimenting people and know guys don’t get many. But when I do they often think I’m flirting with them (because that’s the only time they get compliments) and I’ve had uncomfortable situations from them getting upset after realizing that wasn’t the case. So now even if a guy wouldn’t take it that way I find myself hesitating. And that sucks because it makes it harder for “normal” guys by feeding into that ugly loop of guys only talking to women they want sex with. Normalizing platonic relationships between straight men and women or even just being able to openly say if you’re flirting would help so much.

[@thepanda9782]

As a woman, I agree 100% I noticed that men raised by primarily women tend to understand the difference & self-regulate in these situations better. I think women on the left (and men who are in the know) should be talking about it more! But unfortunately most of the feminism conversations have glazed over AFAB socialization as defacto knowledge. If this knowledge was shared with and adapted to male socialization I think the outcome would be revolutionary. I also think women would feel safer, and in the opposite direction men would feel less lonely and/or used and more appreciated/loved.

[@JimothyTheGreen]

Yeah, it's an issue. I think it would be a good start if women could be more charitable and complimentary to men that they're already friendly with as opposed to strangers. That way there's already a predetermined relationship and less room for misinterpretation.

[@c.karnstein3299]

The chances of gaining a stalker from one small compliment is too high.

[@RoseEyed]

@@c.karnstein3299 but like literally. I politely smiled at a guy once and dude followed me for two blocks 😒

[@RoseEyed]

@@JimothyTheGreen I agree with that in theory but I touched a guy friend once and gave him a compliment. I didn’t intend it flirtatiously but he took it that way and wouldn’t stop aggressively flirting with me after that. It got very awkward. Sooooo gotta be careful with that one too.

[@enlightenednormie242]

Vaush's stance on this issue is so commonsensical that I'm dumbfounded when he receives backlash from it😅

[@JARV9701]

Welcome to the left.

[@stoheha]

NGL, it's nice to see this approach. On top of offering something to these young men, I also think it's important that we fight better against misconceptions about the movements they're being conditioned to hate. I live in the south and it's pretty wild how many people need it explained that just because Disney likes pushing diversity doesn't mean that feminists now own the shadow government, or something to that degree.

[@lynxcato3327]

Because the right have a point when they say the left lacks common sense.

[@mahada7649]

I know it’s a cliche saying but common sense truly isn’t common

[@ApartmentPrepping]

As a gay man with a straight twin I’ve seen how the left is a little…in sensitive…to certain male issues. I’m glad Vaush offers sensitivity training for this.

[@FishSticker]

This ain’t a debate man, it’s just a discussion, a great one at that!

[@eliascommentonly4652]

🇪🇺🇬🇷🇬🇷🇪🇺🇬🇷🇪🇺🇬🇷🇪🇺👋👋👋👑👑👑👑🤴🤴🇪🇺🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🇪🇺🇬🇷🇪🇺🇬🇷😎 Tate is hero Leftists ♀️♀️♀️♀️♀️ Conservatives ♂️♂️♂️♂️ Society need both But in balance 50/50 Women are sluts and bitches..... Only mothers and wives deserve respect 🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🔵🔵🔵🔵🔵🔵🔵⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷👋👋👑👑👑👑👑👑🤴🤴🤴🤴

[@harrison9915]

I appreciate Vaushes take on this. Im about to be 28 myself, and I came very close to falling to the Tate/Redpill side of the spectrum in my late teens/early 20s. What people often fail to understand is that while it is not your/our responsibility for fixing whatever led to a young males poor social ability (childhood trauma/disfunctional home, unresolved mental illnesses, etc), other people do have to live with the consequences. I can tell you at age 16-17, after having experienced a challenging childhood, the absolute LAST thing I would have been receptive to is being told "figure it out" or just outright hostility when all anyone wants at that age is to fit in somewhere and feel accepted. Being correct is not enough, you have to actually be helpful and empathetic to these young guys, because if we don't, Tate and manipulators like him will continue to draw in vulnerable folks with the easy way out messaging despite being so vile and violent beneath the surface.

[@jesustyronechrist2330]

I've gone through the alt-right rabbithole and I can see some similarities with every single group of people and how they handle their opposition. The right's hate towards certain groups of people is because they make them feel uncomfortable for any reason. And the solution is this vague "get rid of them". This is why the rhetoric is so odd and lacks any substance because all of it boils down to "I don't like it, I just want it gone". You can see how this can quickly devolve into fascism, right? The left has a similar philosophy towards groups of people they hate (which proves that this is a universal sociological phenomena): "I don't like it, I just want it gone". It's definitely more subtle and interlinear because the right talks-the-talk and walks-the-walk while the left only does the former. The left just leaves these groups of people to "figure it out" themselves. They don't keep tabs on them, they don't try to help or guide them, they don't actually walk-the-walk because I think they think "I don't have to". e.g."It's not my responsibility". But that goes against a lot of leftist ideals about being responsible and accountable for your actions and bettering your mistakes trying to bring proper justice. Now here's the funni thing: I don't think this is inheritently a problem the left has because "hur dur both sides the same" (I hate that argument, but it does have some validity). I think it's just because of the times we live in because EVERYONE lacks accountability nowadays. Everybody just points at something, says "I don't like it, I want it gone" and then gets mad it doesn't. It's this weird "entitled individuality" that the internet has transformed people into, where everybody wants democracy, but everything has to be tailored to oneself. Which is not what democracy is. Democracy is a compromise between all people. individual voice is heard, but barely has any weight to it. Only groups have big enough voices. So you gotta find compromises and prioritize within that group and it keeps going smaller in scale until you finally reach the individual. And already there you have to compromise as you cannot get everything you want.

[@ObamaSexGaming2007]

It's called “Manosphere”, not Tate/Redpill

[@chapter_black3234]

If you are neurodivergent, getting called creepy is really goddamn common

[@sorejack]

That sucks. Alot. But you have to acknowledge that it's understandable, because ignorance is a thing. It's not like anyone would want to live in a world where our traumas are displayed on an armband. So you have two choices. Blame them, close off, and nothing changes. Or embrace vulnerability. It's a hard thing putting yourself out there to get shot down. It hurts, and no one wants to hear about the pain of others when they are hurting. But do this exercise for a second. They don't know you. You don't really know them. Chances are, they've been harassed Alot more than not. Not because there are so many creeps. But because many of the compassionate men have taken feminism at its word and stopped approaching. The creeps don't care. This has further alienated most women. Seems like the problem is getting worse. They're on a hair trigger. The smart creeps don't act like creeps at first, traumatizing them further. Now you, a stranger, come up to them. Is it safer for them to give you a chance or for them to ignore you. Ignore you. Now the only men coming up are the dangerous creeps. The ones that they want witnesses to pay attention. So here you are, awkward and strange to their perception, a unknown and they have zero incentive to give the benefit of the doubt . Safety trumps validation every time. It sucks. It is a cycle of selection that only gets worse, where good people stay distant while predators roam the space between. Ask a soldier if he would trust just anyone they met on the battlefield in the dark. Because that's what you've crossed into. It's not just you. It sure feels like it, but everyone that is still trying to be social is right there with you. I don't trust when a women walks up to me. How could I? They don't really do it. I look for the camera, or for friends of theirs looking to roll me, or to every other possibility first and I bet you do too. Because safety trumps validation. Rejecting someone the worst that happens is usually hurt feelings. It is also important to note most women are just as afraid to reject someone for fear of anger and hostility leading to violence. It's safer to call for help. Call out creep. It's not just men that take rejection badly. Women do too, and I've personally been in a position where a woman has caught me alone, that I was not attracted to, and could not just reject them for fear of all the things they could do to me with words alone. Someone I had rejected before. Being in public is not consent. As a society we have forgotten this because so much of being in public is tracked, recorded and shown to the world. We need to find a way to introduce ourselves and gain consent to speak as a whole. We have forgotten how to give consent to approach in a manner that isn't problematic. We've been eliminating the safe spaces to do so as well. They're still out there, but not easy to find and in general not easy to find means harder to find connection as well. We need more venues where an explicit consent to talk and socialise is required at the door, as well as the means to revoke that consent safely. I used to love contra dances, because part of the dancing required you to dance with everyone in turn and move on. People on all sides to keep everything above board. We have these things in history and tradition that have fallen out of favor. Find something that interests you, gets you out, and where such explicit consent to socialise is an intrinsic part of it, because that will help you too not only learn how to socialize better, but give others a chance to as well. Who's better at it won't matter, being successful won't matter. The experience is the point, and will do far more to build a connection than pursuit for the sake of it ever will.

[@chapter_black3234]

@@sorejack I will get social practice, although the spaces that are available don't get me far. The only spaces available are bars that are empty most of the time without some sort of event to attract people and even that is a hit or miss and then there is a local game store, however the older more resentful nerdy men and very young twerps that don't know any better tend to drive women away from being familiar in that social space. The bar is the best place, but I still feel like people are still stand-offish with me even when I strike up a conversation that I feel is going well. My problem is that no one seems to ever want to follow-up or make an effort. I suppose everything is supposed to be "serendipity", by chance, or so organic that it should never have any effort involved. I am just fuckin' terrible at that. I may get conversations with people, but the slightest effort to follow-up or connect beyond a conversation with a stranger seems frowned upon, so I just stay regarded as a stranger because there is no real consistent "scene" or "community" that is tied to an open physical location

[@manjackson2772]

@@sorejack I'm not reading all that shit steven. Learn to use paragraphs and be concise.

[@goon6932]

@@chapter_black3234 sounds like you simoly just live in the wrong kind of town for socialising, this was the same in my old town, then when i moved there suddenly were so many different places, scenes and circles to become a part of

[@chapter_black3234]

@@goon6932 It's not impossible like it is for most rural places, but it is difficult in contrast to any major city. Communities and scenes are few. Just occurred to me, but it is very likely why social groups come off more like uptight cliques that maintain rigid archetypes of who they accept even in social spaces more so than the expectation that they open themselves up to social interactions from others by being in those open social spaces like bars or communal events like open mics. It is what it is and harping on it isn't productive. I get that, it just is a greater hurdle than I think people respect most of the time

[@susantatro329]

As an old time egalitarian feminist, I found this video refreshing and very informative. I had never noticed that social freedom of being "exempt from fear of being "creepy". Thank you for a great half hour!

[@Aliasfakename123]

Idk on this point, I've heard women called creepy quite a bit. It seemed to be my area's catch-all for anyone regardless of gender. But it's like everyone is using anecdotal evidence on this which is pretty useless.

[@anarchium_wellsquest]

​@S V when it comes to personal experiences, anecdotes are pretty accurate

[@Aliasfakename123]

@@anarchium_wellsquest oh of course, but I mean turning those experiences into sweeping statements

[@jesustyronechrist2330]

@@Aliasfakename123 Of course nobody is saying that women never get called creepy. But in general women can interact with, let's say kids, with far more leeway and freedom than men can. If me even bringing this up makes you uneasy; case in point of the problem. But we're not talking about kids, right? Relationships and such. There men still are labeled as creepy by a far larger spectrum than women. For a woman to be creepy, she has to be very extreme, like stalking is the mininum until you qualify. If your homegirl goes out into the forest in the middle of the night to do some kind of a wiccan ritual to summon Satan, you don't think that's creepy or that's she's shizo: You think she's a quirky goth who makes all her life decisons based on tarot card readings.

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

@@Aliasfakename123 You're absolutely more likely to be called a creep of you're a guy. It's nowhere near comparable.

[@Jack-ns9sz]

I think Michael Brooks could have been a huge figure on the Left who could have appealed to younger guys. He was edgy and cool, had a great sense of humour, was interested in self development and spirituality, had an healthy ego and wasn't insufferable with his leftist politics. Honestly, I watch a lot of the guys on Breadtube and I totally get why the average young guy wants nothing to do with them. And I say this as someone who watches a lot of their content. There's nothing cool about them, they come across as whiney and mostly effeminate, and remind you of the guy in school no one likes. The fact that the average Breadtube video is basically a self indulgent drama performance probably doesn't help either.

[@JaeEunA]

As a woman, I definitely fell into seeing those guys as soy nerds when I was like 14-15; so I can’t imagine actively looking for masculine figures as a young man and thinking they’d be appealing. I think it comes from them feeling somewhat uncanny, like they’re left-washed caricatures of actual people that feel incredibly preachy and unreachable. Calm and cool just doesn’t fit a lot of the bread tube space. Rest in Power Mike B

[@mutate34]

@@JaeEunA yeah I just don't relate to the sassy, snarky mocking style of a lot of leftwing men, its just not me

[@myselftik]

@Jack who are you talking about can you name names

[@thelouster5815]

“Self indulgent drama performance” Taking a stab at Philosophy Tube I see.

[@btarczy5067]

There’s a space for PhilosophyTube-style theatre nerdery which I think is great and I don’t think it has to be an either/or thing. What annoys me is when the aesthetics come before the argument. With that I don’t want to dismiss Abigail because she makes good points accompanied by a performance but the outrage directed at edgier people who leave space for reactionary types to step in. There might be some who then don’t effectively refute right wing talking points but I can’t come up with an example right now. There are also many KZbinrs who aren’t exactly on the Breadtube list but nonetheless have progressive messaging so maybe it’s not as bad as looking at the traditional lineup would suggest. Some of these aren’t leftists but The Infinite Review, Ordinary Things or Macabre Storytelling come to mind as appealing to apolitical or even conservative audiences while having some pretty great takes.

[@LordChevonlier]

I wonder if we can flip it. Instead of saying "feminism is the reason why you're insecure." We just replace the word feminism with conservatism. We wouldn't even be lying lol

[@brucewayneissober6915]

I'm sure telling men they are trash for a decade helped a lot lmao.

[@NuttinChunkySpunk]

Girls just wanna have fun, but boys will be boys.

[@xvi1128]

@@brucewayneissober6915 Nobody said that though …

[@whatsallthebrouhaha]

I was pretty successful in saying that patriarchy was the root of most of their relationship problems back in like 2020. Im kinda afraid we're too late now, their narratives have already gotten to the point of like "you can never address other view points because that's beta" so it might be legit impossible to get some of them that are too far in.

[@BruhWhyDidTheyChangeThis]

@@xvi1128 NOBODY?! Come the fuck on have you been on earth?

[@danielmikula1375]

I'm 45, been a feminist since as long as I can remember, never flirted or learned to flirt because I'm big and neurotic. One of the issues I've observed is that it's a fine goal to have an even playing field, but there's still this expectation that men are the primary party responsible for initiating courtship. It can leave a lot of shy guys out in the cold and pop feminism unfortunately tends to just shrug about it.

[@morganisabelle6880]

I want to provide my perspective as a woman(and a feminist): I did ask my partner out first, but in the past I’ve been reluctant to do so. This is because I’m not super conventionally attractive and I’ve been told since I was a kid that very few people would be interested in me(this is very common for women). I felt it was safer to hide behind the expectations, so to speak. I came to the realization that many men feel the same way, and that a culture of body shame impacts both sides. I think feminism needs to address shame on both ends, but some women are reluctant to understand that men are insecure too.

[@imanigordon6803]

@@morganisabelle6880n a way gender expectations screw everyone and as a woman if you’re not assertive in asking someone out that doesn’t hinder you because society deems women as being the “chaser” as wrong. However if a guy doesn’t want to engage that puts him in a bad position because he is socialized to always chase so if he’s shy or awkward he’s forced to find a way to assert himself because most women don’t engage in that way. That leaves him with insecurities if he fails or isn’t the best at speaking.

[@StormsparkPegasus]

Gender expectations are stupid anyway. Just treat people like people, common courtesy. If a guy wants to ask a woman out, that's fine, as long as he knows to accept a no. If a woman wants to ask a guy out, likewise that's perfectly fine. Expecting guys to be stereotypically "masculine" is just as dumb as expecting women to be sterotypically "feminine".

[@fuzzylogiceire]

I think the average woman has more options than the average man. They are already being approached so not the same pressure men are under to approach. Therefore less need to approach. Way more matches on OLD than men, and messaging a man first doesn't take any courage like in real life. I definitely respect women who can approach a man they like and think they should do this if they really like someone.

[@LoathsomeLucifer]

@@morganisabelle6880 because insecurity is inherently undesirable in guys. A guy might put up with insecurity but women will not.

[@pwnagraphic690]

That Aiden Ross dude has a legit man crush on Taint. You can see it in his face and how he talks about him. Dude is completely smitten lol

[@TrentonF505]

Also, he’s definitely insecure. He had a convo with Ethan one time and was seeking validation the whole time.

[@pwnagraphic690]

@@TrentonF505 I didn’t see that, but I’m not surprised. The caller seemed to think that bust because you’re good looking and privileged doesn’t mean you can’t be insecure. That insecurity has likely driven whatever mindset he has.

[@TrentonF505]

@@pwnagraphic690 Exactly. Plus, people can be insecure about things other than looks. Aiden kept asking Ethan Klein if he liked him which shows a desperation to be accepted by people.

[@pwnagraphic690]

@@TrentonF505 that’s extremely sad.

[@johnnytsunami3695]

This is the issue with the left anytime a man shows another man love because of brothershipit's "they are gay but also nothing wrong is being gay, you're just gay tho because you look up to another man"

[@j.c6204]

Guys being worried of ” coming of” as creepy flirting makes them turn to Tate. That’s so true, and a huge problem. As a woman I really understand why, and the left just laugh and doesnt take this seriously. Irritating!

[@JebeckyGranjola]

Worried about being creepy? The guy currently awaiting trial as a sex offender will surely help you out with that!

[@ImNotaRussianBot]

@@JebeckyGranjola Bud, you missed the point of the message. And I'm speaking as a woman.

[@JebeckyGranjola]

@Мурка Yeah I missed the point because it doesn't make any f4cking sense! If your worried about being seen as a creep don't take advice from a creep who tells you to be even more creepy. Speaking as someone with more than 1 brain cell.

[@j.c6204]

@@JebeckyGranjola Offcourse it Will not help them. Tate doesnt care about them. Are u a bot?!

[@JebeckyGranjola]

@J.C So why would someone who has a problem turn to someone who won't help them?" It's like if I said, "people worried about thier walls falling down is the reason they call a wrecking crew." And you said, "A wrecking crew knocking down the walls won't help them keep thier walls from falling." Then I say, "of course a wrecking crew won't help them.Are you stupid?"

[@easytoassemble54321]

I really appreciated this debate, as someone who's social anxiety - especially in approaching women - has been a major feature (bug) in my life. I've thankfully had a semblance of normalcy, and what friendship groups I've had have given me social contact / friendships with women, as well as keeping me grounded in terms of what is and isn't appropriate (even if my "dating game" is hampered by shyness). But, I also sympathise with A) why some guys do become "creepy" or "weird" (a feedback loop of lacking social interaction then feeding behaviours that alienate others), and B ) how adverse, hasty judgements on your "creepiness" from classmates or workmates (often based on very superficial aspects) can really erode your confidence, which only exacerbates social exclusion further (and making them perfect marks for bad Manosphere advice). It's telling that the Right offers advice on success, exercise, and tidiness, but really struggles to advise on forming relationships. Because, that would involve actively deploying good-natured traits, which is something the Right sees as tied to weaknesses, "Beta", and "cucked" behaviour. And yet, forming relationships would probably be the most fundamental ingredient in changing these lonely guys' lives.

[@uneterostardust8233]

Yep, it's similar to how, if you want to trap somebody in a cult, you don't teach them to ask questions. Tate is a cult leader, knows what he's doing, farming Men's suffering and advertising self help, without actually giving self help worth a shit as that would harm his business.

[@bevvy.bee9]

Are you u ironically a programmer?

[@alsaiduq4363]

I was working with two girls , both my friend, in my job (one of them quitted recently) and one day i decided to cut my hair (6+ months without getting a cut), i got a really short cut because my hair is curly so it's pain to take care, the next day one them said ''Why did you do that? I liked the Curly hair'' and other said ''I really liked the little curls..'', it wasn't even praising my hair directly but i took that to the heart and now that my hair is bigger and starting to get some volume, im started taking care of my Hair much more.. Watching video , changing my Shampoo and shit. I never had anyone prasing my Hair (that wasnt my mom or someone close to her) without calling me ''Goldilocks'' or some shit, , so i always thought my hair was absolute shit and i HAD to cut short always.. A little validation or indirect praise can make a huge difference, especialy from a girl.

[@jesustyronechrist2330]

- "Be better!" - "Okay, how?" - "Excuse me? What do you mean how? Isn't that obvious?! The fact you even have to ask tells me you aren't gonna change and aren' taking this seriously. You're probably just mocking me!" - "What?" - "You're a real POS" Legit had this convo over 5 times. Of course not in real life, but even online, it's pretty weird to have basically the same interaction 5 seperate times on the internet if it's not in inside joke you partake in.

[@LiamLoves]

100% this. What does "better" even mean?

[@milgoncalez]

Hey Vaush, my boyfriend showed me your channel and now I’m a subscriber. As a lady that has been hit on by “creepy guys” (just random guys that don’t know me in person and come too strong) I believe that one of the reasons women react to men more often is because we are physically scared and intimidated. There is some deep instinct that tells you “he could take me if he wanted, I don’t have the strength to fight him off”, whereas guys would not be physically intimidated by a woman/girl. That’s just a thought, but I agree with everything you said about the left not being as receptive to insecure young men and pushing them to the far right. The solution definitely is educating young people to understand the toxic aspects of gender stereotypes and how to have relationships with another human.

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

Out of curiosity, were all the guys you didn't know and considered "creepy" incidentally unattractive/not your type?

[@k8tempo428]

He's covered this point as well, definitely informs a large part of his perspective on this issue. You'd probably find a lot of his discussions on this topic interesting, I know I did. Hope you stick around :D

[@EyeOfTheTiger777]

Vaush has actually explained that in almost the same way as you have. Just FYI btw, not being contentious. I just can't remember in which video he said it... Maybe it was the consent one. Welcome btw and have a good time!

[@milgoncalez]

@@ihsahnakerfeldt9280 no, they were taxi drivers offering to marry me so I could get a green card, or asking for “help” at work but staring, or offering insane things with clear motives. I am always polite and don’t call “creepy” someone that is just hitting on you. Flirting is so hard. It’s not “creepy” just because I’m not attracted to someone. But I also get flirty messages on LinkedIn of all places, so that is not the place to do that either and does come across as weird.

[@c.karnstein3299]

@Ihsahn Åkerfeldt Not for me. One guy was actually very conventionally attractive, his behaviour however was creepy.

[@ciaraskeleton]

In my eyes, Tate represents the repressed psyche of the young men that society, politics, culture, have produced. Boys go through so much that they feel they can't express or talk about. It gets repressed. They find tate relatable because he just does whatever he wants and represents this ultimate masc 'women are my objects' idol. Im a complete feminist, but how can we ever fix things like this without addressing the shit that boys/men/masc presenting people go through. If we address that, it trickles down into how they view and treat women. My main goal is to keep humans safe. I can't help anyone if I'm not honest about the whole situation, and don't look at it from every single angle. 🤷 could write essays on the subject but I appreciate channel's like this bc vaush has the difficult conversations while remaining totally respectful and logical. That's a big step forward. *again I am a hard-core feminist, women are amazing, I want them to be safe, loved and treated well and respected**

[@Aliballer]

I used to call my self a feminist as a young man. After being in those circles and witnessing the dismissal for mens issues in every situation when feminism was presented as away to deal with female and male issues. I had to leave i decided to be egalitarian instead and advised other young men it's really not worth looking into past 1st and 2nd wave. I hope more feminist are like you maybe I'll reevaluate

[@ciaraskeleton]

@@Aliballer I think mainstream feminism and hard-core left Liberal feminism can miss the mark! I think they are valid movements but they are almost like 'blind feminism.' Where people just follow blindly what one gal or group of gals thinks or says. I don't like that at all, so I empathise with you having to see and experience all of that! I call myself a feminist because I do spend a lot of time fighting for women's rights just due to being a woman and having things happen to me, or others I know, I'm passionate about keeping women safe. But above all I believe in equality and even ground to stand on! We are all humans, fuck race, gender, society. We all have valid pain, valid love, we are alllll valid in our life and experiences. you've heard people say the phrase ' hurt people hurt people ' and that's just what keeps happening men are extremely hurt, then they hurt women and others around then, women hurt men back as if that will fix anything. The cycle repeats! Imo you don't have to always have a political label to just live by your own moral code that you know is right 😁 thanks for reading!

[@ImNotaRussianBot]

@@Aliballer Honestly, the word has been dragged through the mud. Do you think everyone should be treated and valued equally regardless of gender? Yes? Well, you're a feminist. It's that simple. All the rest of the sh*t that both the insane man-hating groups and women-hating groups add to the word is their own hang up.

[@Aliballer]

@@ImNotaRussianBot nah bro I'll just buy claiming it. I'm egalitarian I'm not interested

[@khan507]

A year too late, but I think the fact that you had to add in a disclaimer that "you're a feminist" itself is part of the problem. Leftist/feminist have this deep-rooted fear of talking about male discrimination. Fear of being labelled as a 'betrayer/pick-me/MRA'. This in itself prevents any discourse on topics of male gender discrimination. Like where do we even start if we get dismissed this early? 😢

[@andrewpowell1734]

I think we do men a disservice when we tell them “The worst a woman can tell you is no.” It makes them feel odd when they ask a woman out and the woman is rude to them. It downplays that rejection can be hard.

[@he1ar1]

The worst that can happen is demoralisation. The complete destruction of your identity. Male identity is very fragile.

[@andrewpowell1734]

@@he1ar1 No. Women can do worse and I think it harms everyone by not acknowledging this. A woman can do harm when she thinks a man she is not attracted to likes her. This makes the man unintentionally across as creepy. She may then do things like report you to your boss or say something behind your back that causes social isolation amongst your peet group. This is far worse than just hurting his ego. Scenario. A man unintentionally does something that makes a woman uncomfortable. Her (to his boss): He is making uncomfortable. Boss (to him): You’re fired. Him: I don't like that you reported me to my boss and got me fired. You could have talked to me if you had a problem. Her: You’re so fragile. 🙄 I think Vaush is trying to recognize the problem here.

[@c.karnstein3299]

Rejection is hard but its harder if you're a low confidence person. You can be turned down by every single woman on a night out and it doesn't have to destroy your esteem one ounce. Most of these men are putting their ego and confidence in the hands and responsibility of a stranger. If a woman says "not interested" it's easy to shrug off and move on. There's billions of people on this planet. The ones making a big deal out of the rejection are men.

[@ataready8810]

@@c.karnstein3299 it's unrealistic to say that men do not have anything to lose by being rejected. There are large social consequences for a man (this applies more to guys with less social status) who is seen as creepy and then rejected by his peers. Being socially isolated that way is no joke. This aspect of being seen as creepy doesn't even apply to just when a guy is looking for romance, because it's others interpretations which determine what's creepy.

[@disaster4550]

not enough women are rude, men think if you are polite it means "yes", we should be more rude honestly

[@clayjack9969]

I had a conversation with my sister about basic “red pill” stuff for lack of a better term and it didn’t go well. I didn’t even touch on the harder to prove stuff just the factual shit like education drop out rates, suicide, homelessness, depression, lack of access to abuse shelters etc and she got very defensive right away. Like her whole body language changed from very open to incredibly closed off. we are very close as far as sibling go but this conversation definitely changed her whole demeanor. After talking for awhile I got her to admit that she just doesn’t care about men’s issues at all and gets really annoyed when guys try to talk about or do something about it even in their own. I can see why women would get defensive over stuff like this cause historically men have not been very chill to women whatsoever but a lot of guys who don’t spend all day on fringe Twitter accounts are not actually looking to take away anything from women. I think one big step is to encourage women to just hear men out and not jump down their throat anytime they complain about anything. After awhile they should be able to see where men are coming from and understand that for most of them their is no malicious intent or ulterior motives behind what they want.

[@matthewarnold4557]

Unfortunately, that well has been poisoned for a long time. The men's rights movement has been a launching point for misogynistic talking points. To answer your question, the issues you bring up are essentially class struggle, and toxic gender roles.

[@scrimPinion]

I get your perspective, but I think I also get your sister's, and I have some issues with your proscriptive conclusions at the end. You're not wrong about the statistics, but the way you go over those statistics, and your choice of audience to share them with, is absolutely KEY in getting those points across. Just as an example: those statistics are describing the effects of patriarchy, and toxic masculinity. And any woman capable of describing those terms accurately also most likely understands that it's not up to women, or feminism, to address and correct. Don't get me wrong: feminism absolutely plays a huge role in combating patriarchy and toxic masculinity, but encouraging women to be more educated on these issues, and to be more charitable towards men, is like asking a minority "have you tried being more agreeable to combat racism?" Does that make sense? I'm not trying to push back super hard or anything, I just treat your comment and saw like...a framing problem, you know?

[@jujutrini8412]

Maybe you should ask your sister about her personal experiences of how men behave. You might be surprised. Many men go through life without understanding what traumatic experiences women have had in regards men so don’t understand why women feel the way they do around/about men.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

@@scrimPinion Let me shut you down right there: the moment you "patriarchy" you might as well blame Sith Lords. I can't reach the controls and move the patriarchy dial. Blaming an abstract concept is a complete cop out. At least racism is tangible.

[@scrimPinion]

@@ChucksSEADnDEAD are you high right now? The exact same reasons you have to accept racism as a real thing (observable evidence and statistics, compelling arguments made by experts on the subject), exist in just as much quantity and persuasiveness to establish the feminist theory concept of "patriarchy." Like... the whole of human history is chockablock with evidence. Pretending it doesn't exist just because you may not accept or understand this just has you coming off as a bit silly.

[@slappab]

what a constructive conversation. my brain wasn’t being dragged through broken glass while listening for once. props

[@BrandonPilcher]

NGL, I totally know what Vaush is talking about when he describes how a lot of men feel worried that they'll come across the wrong way when talking to a woman. I know, because I've felt it too (and it doesn't help that I'm on the autism spectrum and therefore have always been awkward as hell). I get why women have their guard up in this society, but it does suck to be misjudged like that.

[@zakjackson2610]

I don’t think it’s so much creepiness as it is the danger element. Men need to be able to convey that they’re safe to be around, which should include humor and light flirting. Most women I’ve interacted with will give you the benefit of the doubt if your heart’s in the right place. A lot see nervousness in guys as endearing and cute. It’s happened to me quite often.

[@ThunderHOWL16]

Vaush is spot on about the fear of flirting. at least in my experience. shit man, sometimes if i accidentally make eye contact w a woman at the gym i get a little worried that they’ll think i’m staring at them or i’m a creep.

[@c.m.9369]

The sad thing is, that it‘s mainly the „good guys“ who have this fear. Inconsidered assholes who don‘t care if they potentially bother a woman with their attempt at flirting are a lot less likely to be afraid to approach a woman, than men who understands that women COULD be threatened or annoyed or bothered when being approached and try to avoid causing this problem…

[@edthewave]

It doesn't help that there are female tiktokers like "eww look at this creep staring at me at the gym" when it's literally just a guy walking past to get to the machine next to them, or looking at a mirror on the same wall. We've become a culture of self-absorbed narcissists who take way too many things personally, be they real or perceived slights, and we ALL are worse off for it, regardless of political or social affiliation.

[@bonthebunnycat667]

I usually dont have trouble flirting, but yeah I also get spooked that random women in public will think im eyeing them down cause Im AMAB, when I am just zoned out thinking, I am not interested in ladies 😅

[@matthewarnold4557]

@UCjh4DQMiIVNcYvRb_PKPirg GO OUT SIDE

[@JimothyTheGreen]

@Gilgamesh4238 The hip thrust exercise ey? Sorry that's just pretty funny.

[@TheManlol12]

As a leftist in a frat who used to be very right wing, misogynistic, etc. It starts with frustration at 12-15 and then those influencers give you “answers” on how to carry yourself. It doesn’t just happen as an adult, it’s established at a young age.

[@bumblebeemer]

A couple thoughts: 1. There's a term in the disability community that would be helpful in this discourse: conflicting needs. It's when two disabled people's needed accommodations conflict with one another. Neither are more important than the other; they both have to have those accommodations. This framework helps to keep people from instinctively trying to solve the issue by sussing out who's needs are greater/more important/more deserving, so it helps direct the focus to a resolution that satisfies everyone's needs. This would help prevent conversations from being derailed into "but what about (other identity)?!" as well as let people know off the jump there's no hierarchy, and everyone is here in good faith. 2. Vague verbiage is an issue. I see this everywhere: "they" need to help men;" "the left" is ignoring men," are the theses, but getting into specific scenarios/issues, it's 'women' & 'feminists.' That leads everyone to believe the 'they' & 'the left' refers to women, along with the social conditioning we all have that it's women who do emotional labor, relationship maintenance, & social lubricating. This allows men to discourse about what the women need to do, then check out because men are the problem identifiers on the team. 3. Men gotta do this one. The last part of the conversation was enlightening, but these are challenges women simply aren't aware of. Women can't know what it's like internally for men to struggle socializing, to not know how, the fear of being seen as creepy. Lefty *men* should totally discourse on these issues and challenges--especially to the young boys! Talk about it more! How have lefty men learned to communicate? How have lefty men learned to have casual conversations? What was it like to unlearn stereotypes & explore your identity as a man outside of those tiny boxes? What can cishet men learn from queer men about gender, gender roles, stereotypes, and gender performativity? (Somebody do that last one!)

[@BruhWhyDidTheyChangeThis]

Yo you’re too smart to be on KZbin comments. I love the disabilities point.

[@caixiuying8901]

The end of 3 While you're very right about that, it's hard to present those ideas to men that are more conservative because of their unwillingness to consider another point of view as valid. I have a friend that's a bit of right winged conservative, but I REALLY want to fucking argue about his views on feminism and trans people. The dude thinks trans men won't ever be real men and that they'll eventually detransition because maybe they'll finally see how hard guys have it. Ridiculous, I know lmao. I know him on a personal level and know that he thinks "winning" by being selfish is self-justified (and alpha lol) and I'm waiting for the day we argue so I can point out how his justified selfishness is a disadvantage in the long run BECAUSE he doesn't have the foresight to see how trans men would be useful brothers in the discussion of male mistreatment because they sure as hell experience that too. I hate doing that because it's perhaps a bit tokenizing. I don't want to "use" trans men like that, so I genuinely mean it when I say their input is valuable and overlooked by Tate-like men that care more about satisfying their ego in the short-term over cultivating a healthy ego in the long-term. But having that said, some people don't change their minds about things until it affects them, which is exactly how I think conservative men are able to stew in bigoted untrue ideas, literally just because they see it as not their problem. They do not want to learn from queer people because they see those as the opinions of "the other."

[@bumblebeemer]

@@caixiuying8901 I wouldn't say it's tokenizing. You're just pointing out how things could be if folk can get past reflexive rejection. It's no different than pointing out to cis women that the anti-drag/anti-trans laws are going to negatively impact them. You gotta reach people where they're at. Really the key to opening legit discourse with anyone not-already-lefty-that-already-has-the-pulse-on-these-things is to keep away from the buzzwords, the copy/pasta call and responses, and communicate things relateably. Your relationship with your friend will help, too.

[@bumblebeemer]

aw, shucks, @X.

[@rogerkeleshian2215]

@@caixiuying8901 What could I learn from them? Why would it in any way benefit me if they are fundamentally so different?

[@taahirsa7673]

The step that this guy seems to miss is that the Tate acknowledges and validates the emotions of these young men before he gives them his political views. He tells them FIRST that their feelings are true then gives them his views. The Left dismisses the emotions entirely on the basis that they are already alt-right. That they already have politics and focus on the ideas. Ideas that they havent formed yet. Ultimately pushing them in the direction of Tate and his ilk. These young men are just fence-sitters and rather than appeal to them as Feminism appeals to women's concerns and emotion, they demonize them for being men. As if they have already committed any crimes. As if they are the same men as those living in the time of the Suffrages.

[@spyfire242]

The left doesn't dismiss the emotions of men nor demonize them. Sometimes it feels like that because we discuss things like the patriarchy and toxic masculinity which if you aren't thinking critically some of these guys might think "Patriarchy/masculinity bad = Men bad" and get upset because they haven't done anything wrong. However when we discuss things like that we are talking about how its bad for women AND men. One of the problems is that people on the left are used to having to choose their battles. Because they are going against the status quo you get met with allot more push back and thus someone might think. "Oh its not worth it because this person doesn't want to hear what I have to say." Another problem is we don't have a "catch all" solution to problems rather we are constantly discussing and debating the best ways to improve ourselves and society where as on the right they are always ready to give you a prepackaged answer to all your problems.

[@Tleilaxu0]

@@spyfire242 People on the left (and I say this as a leftie myself) absolutely dismiss and demonize men all the time, they just don't realize they're doing it. They'll justify it by saying they're just pushing back against bad actors, creeps, incels, entitled Nice Guys, and so on, but in practice they are incredibly quick with slapping those labels on to people just for bringing up issues such as those Vaush mention in this video here. I mean hell, there are people who have accused Vaush of being a secret Tate fanboy because of these criticisms.

[@spyfire242]

@@Tleilaxu0 I'll give you a vocal minority at best, the whole idea that leftists demonize and dismiss men is mostly just a tool of the right in my experience. They cherry pick, take out of context and mass publish that shit on youtube all day.

[@jeffreychandler8418]

@@spyfire242 the left absolutely does dismiss emotions.

[@spyfire242]

@@jeffreychandler8418 How? If anything the left is wants for men to be MORE open about their emotions, challenging the idea that men need to hide their emotions in order to be masculine.

[@TAP7a]

Someone else in the comments said it best: Pragmatically, it's not enough to just be correct. You have to provide something appealing. I completely agree, whether it's providing a narrative, a structure, a goal, whatever, but just telling the truth about the world is just going to make people sad and drive almost everyone to seek comfort rather than take action.

[@dre7508]

12:15 this part was so real as a trans guy. i’m so much more aware about the space i take up or how i’m perceived by women while acting the exact same way i used to

[@alex_blue5802]

Yeah I feel the same way sometimes, whether it's dating or just general interactions.

[@Death_Tr00per58]

I was super afraid to ask for the phone number of a woman I liked because of these pressures, especially since I'm already a pretty anxious person. Three weeks later I found their instagram and I have a new friend. Probably the first real female friend I've ever had.

[@spacefauna9351]

Heck yeah! Keep at it! Friendships can blossom into something more, but, if that’s not possible, at least you will be less afraid to ask next time.

[@JewTube001]

you just DM'd them on insta?

[@MusicMissionary]

If you want to know what the left could be doing proactively... Hunter Avallone just dropped a video "My Advice For Lonely Men" with some advice that's just practical and from my experience, works. This is the kind of thing I think Vaush wants more of. It doesn't have to be ideological.

[@MrSupplementScene]

I love how the guy debating Vaush dissmisively said 'Yea okay' when talking about how leftists can support young men who are struggling. This is essential to the discussion, hipster leftists who in reality are only virtual signalers don't care about men's problems. Vaush does and knows it's an issue.

[@greyfox496]

I'm only speaking from my own direct experience right now, but the only Tate fan I know is someone who already held extremely bigoted beliefs and he absolutely enjoys Tate for confirming that bias, like leftistowl said. That contingent absolutely exists and isn't negligible, a lot of what you see when Tate appears on, or is discussed by, more normie/dudebro-centric podcasts and stuff is dumb guys saying stuff like, "I just think he's funny." And of course that's radicalization 101, couch your nightmarish politics in jokes to make them go down easier.

[@ImNotaRussianBot]

We need some non-biased surveys and studies. Otherwise it's "I know a coupla dudes" or "all the Tater Tots I know...". We know better than to succumb to the anecdotal "evidence" for prove of an opinion. I want to know the actual statistics. After this, we can start tackling the underlying issues.

[@torrb420]

I feel down that rabbit hole back in 2004-2005 when I was an older teen. Grew up pretty lower middle class and was kind of one those heavy metal head "that guy" type. Obnoxious, know-it-all and interjected my interests into situations where no one asked and no one seemed interested. I felt pretty lonely as a teenager when I was into stuff that a lot of people around me just wasn't. I wasn't an asshole per say and heard too many of the "your a nice guy, you are cool, but you are just not fun to be around". Was never misogynistic but there is deep level of all that and alternative right wing views that persists in the metal world. Most of my "friends" at the time and I played in bands, had mutual pen-palship and when you are felt accepted by a crowd that is rather different from the norm you can spiral further down the rabbit hole. You begin to blame others for you being the problem all along. But you didnt see it that way. You saw yourself as just different and had no idea why people hated you. Then you start to feel insecurities about yourself. Trying to be self conscious of everything you do and say and makes you feel like your comming off as a weird creep. Then you start the blame game. I started to level out after finally getting into actual dating relationships but it was never easy for me and took a bit to course correct myself. Even now I still feel people are off putted with me and never understood why. Maybe I'm just weird. Always felt that way anyway. At least now I was able to find a woman I'm married to that can handle my quirks rather making me feel ashamed of them. So yes, I do feel the left and the progressive liberal end of the political spectrum socially and economically has a lot to play into these men's issues. Anecdotal sure, but I never knew of a woman I grew up with who was liberal or leftist that wasn't a right wing characicture of the "champagne socialist". Born to affluent families and looked down upon you for being the guy who grew up in the white ghetto. But it was also a time that was not very favorable towards those who clearly was suffering from mental health issues.

[@Jacorpes]

Only yesterday I saw a post by an NB friend about how they got in a lift with a random woman and she literally got out and waited for the next one because she didn't want to be in a space like that with someone who looks male. They were saying that they'd never even considered that they might be percieved as being dangerous before they started transitioning.

[@SandraBTateRAW]

Great job Vaush. Our culture has too much BS and too little substance to help us all wade through. Regardless of the generation, it's time to rebuild a solid foundation to feel better by doing better. I'm glad I found your channel. You Rock!

[@FeartheOldGods]

The amount of insufferable “the only good leftist” “is he even a leftist” comments is nauseating.

[@mechanomics2649]

Par for the course, quite honestly.

[@FeartheOldGods]

@@mechanomics2649 you aren’t wrong…. Sadly 😑

[@tomgl6684]

Awkward guy experience I had recently: had a reserved seat in the train. The carriage was mostly empty, went to my assigned seat (which is marked as reserved by an electronic display above it) and a woman was sitting on the seat next to it. Within a minute of me sitting down, she gets up and takes another seat sighing that "I'll sit where there's space *since there's so many spare seats* " For a second I did question myself, but it's like - you got there before I did. You could choose literally any free seat, you could see you were going to be sitting next to a seat that was going to be used but you chose to sit there anyway. How are any of your decisions here my fault?

[@ImNotaRussianBot]

They're not. If I was that woman (and I am one irl), I would move because I would want more privacy. Just because someone booked a seat doesn't mean they will show up (I mean, it's a ton more likely). So, instead of moving to a different seat first and then maybe having a last minute booking show up make things awkward at her new seat (where she could potentially be sitting at their seat), she may have sat in her seat with the 50/50 expectation of you showing up. And if you did, she was gonna move anyways (no matter your gender). If you were a woman and I was that other woman, I still would have done the same thing. Why sit right next to a stranger when you can have more personal space and mobility?

[@JewTube001]

it's a trap bro, and you fell for it. reminds me of the black activist on balls of steel when he stood on the grass in the park waiting for someone tell him to get off the grass. lol.

[@JewTube001]

@@ImNotaRussianBot i would just sit anywhere if i was either of them. if it's an otherwise empty carriage then literally nobody is going to care if they sit in the wrong seat. they can always move back later if it looks like a lot of people are coming on. and it would have to be a lot because even at 25% capacity nobody is going to care where anyone sits. like it's not a plane or a restaurant with formal seating procedures.

[@tomgl6684]

@@JewTube001 How is it a trap? I stayed where I was, she didn't. Bar a brief moment of questioning myself, it's ultimately no skin off my nose if she'd moved or stay put. I think you need to get out more.

[@tomgl6684]

@@ImNotaRussianBot Fair enough - it wasn't so much that she'd chose to sit there I found baffling, it was more the weary remark she made about changing seats. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

[@Hyper_Fox06]

A major problem is that the issues that men really do need help with are what the right manipulates. The men's rights movement started out legitimately trying to bring issues like men's mental health and being genuine and respectful when approaching relationships. The right sucks in boys and men because they don't get the right guidance. I get accused of having a feminist view when I'm out here wanting everyone to have better lives, not just leftists, not just women, and certainly not opposing conservatives from having better lives. I do have a bit more intolerance of the far right leaders and talking heads that lie and manipulate people to behave in ways against their own best interests. The leaders that know the truth and have an entire coordinated alternative reality they dump on people that don't know about critical thinking and actual facts about socioeconomics. They've been groomed to mistrust science and experts because those people can inform them of the truth. They groom them from infancy to not think for themselves or to question the narratives they're being fed, they're programmed to just accept what their religious leaders say with blind faith. All these things when unified by the rights extensive propaganda network leads to angry disillusioned men. Oh and we need to inform men you can be a friend with a woman without a sexual motive.

[@matthewarnold4557]

The best response to men's rights activist is to bring up the concept of class struggle, and fourth wave feminism.

[@DevinMacGregor]

Men's Rights Movement started a long long time ago and was about equal under the law to make sure men did not get shafted in say family court.

[@twitchtheking4950]

For all my fellow guys (and girls) out there struggling to socialize and date I recommend therapy. I know it's a dead horse at this point, especially on the left, but therapy changed my life. So many people who haven't had a good therapist or any at all think therapy is just sitting with someone and talking about their feelings but it can and should be so much more. I'm neurodivergent and gave off the creepy vibe for a while, specifically between 13 - 17. I brought it up with my therapist that I would like to start dating after I started college and she referred me to a psychologist who specialized CBT and exposure therapy for social anxiety and socialization. Before I started I wasn't able to start conversations with other guys, let alone women. About 6 months in I was able to have normal conversations with strangers, 1 year in and I was confident enough in my ability to flirt. Of course therapy is expensive and not everyone will have the same results but CBT and exposure therapy are in my opinion the solution for many men's issues. Neurodivergent people and those of us suffering from social phobia or those who just feel socially stunted are not a lose cause. It is possible to become "normie". As of now I have a girlfriend, three dogs, a nice starter house, a job I like a lot, I've rekindled relationships with my family, I have a group of friends I spend the weekends with regularly and I'm happy. I AM HAPPY AND YOU CAN BE TOO! THERAPY WORKS!

[@p4rallax__]

Good for you man

[@RamiroEloy1997]

I just started therapy last week I hope it works

[@Scar-jg4bn]

To be fair, MANY people cannot afford therapy, and I think you're overlooking that massive hurdle.

[@twitchtheking4950]

@@Scar-jg4bn Therapy for me was not as much as many would think. I did sessions bi-weekly, it was about $250 a month. Not saying it's not a lot of money but the return on investment is worth it. Beyond that the majority of the work I did myself with the help of online resources and books written by actual professionals in the industry, not self help garbage.

[@ataready8810]

@@owimze To add to this I think schools have a large responsibility in why things are handled the way they are. From personal experience growing up in different primary schools and moving to new ones regularly, I think a big issue is that students have no choice who their classmates are and don't/can't socialise with students outside of their year. I know my brother was my only link to a lot of things that his friends did and being able to learn from older students and talk to them is great. Unfortunately this doesn't/can't happen much with classes strictly sorted by year and often shuffled between years in primary school, and then by subject in high school. I would like to see a change in the system to at least a more lenient and sociable version of the system that doesn't essentially exclude kids from socialising who are queer/neurodivergent/awkward because they don't have a group in class that they get along with. I went to a primary school with 1000 kids and a high school with 1000 students and I'm sure there were plenty of queer kids but only had a friend group from people in my year (some of whom are queer) which I kinda got along with and had the occasional acquaintance in a higher year. interests like art, drama and music are powerful because they are external activities that people choose because they want to. I did theatresports because it had a cool teacher and cool older students. If we let kids choose their clique and who they spend their time with for themselves, it would be a huge benefit. Of course, teachers often see kids socialising or being engaged with other students as a 'problem' when in reality if students aren't paying attention it's anything but because of having a friend to talk to.

[@bkucenski]

There are two key demographics: the incel side where "girls are scary" and you have toxic ways being taught to people to engage with people to try to start a relationship. And then you have the "sigma male" misogyny. And that second group is based on a long history of oppressing women and men thinking they're entitled to oppress people. Andrew Tate kind of bridges the gap teaching the misogyny and also how to approach women by having an arrogance that will result in an abusive dominating relationship if the woman gives in.

[@silo18]

When AOC first got into office she was saying a lot of the same things as this host. We need to be enthusiastically welcoming these young guys into the party, they are just looking to be accepted. Wish they mentioned this topic.

[@llsilvertail561]

South asian woman here (born and raised in the US), and the whole thing about south asian guys being considered not desirable isn't just a white women thing. It's a thing with asian, south asian, black, etc. women. Like, my dad, a 50 yo man who's married and has kids, is also like "ah yes. Desi men. They aren't particularly attractive when compared to men from other places". And it's just like wtf???? Okay?????????? I'm pretty sure that's also the case for south asian women as well. Like, my mom is all "south asian women are hairy so you have to shave otherwise you'll be unattractive" and I'm pretty sure my dad has said similar if not as explicit things. No wonder my self confidence is kinda sketch lmao (I'm working on it tho). Not to mention all the media portraying attractive south asians as having much more European facial features than the average person, but that's a whole nother issue. Also, the whole being careful about making people uncomfortable is definitely a thing for women as well. Like, (as a woman) I wouldn't go sit next to those two guys on the couch bc I don't want to make them uncomfortable (and depending on the context bc I wouldn't want it to be interpreted as me being interested in them) nor would I sit next to the women for the same reason. In general, I also find myself second guessing a lot of my casual friendships with fem-presenting people much more than my casual friendships with mascs (using fem and masc cuz I've found this to be the case with GNC people, enbys, etc.). I'm not particularly sure why, but I'm inclined to think it's bc society says men are more upfront about what they're thinking and a consuming a lot of media about duplicitous female friends as a kid so..........

[@thisguynamedmatt12]

You have no idea how much this makes me feel seen as a person. Unfortunately im so socially isolated outside of work and my online friends that the irreparable damage done to me throughout my formative years or my life, im afraid arent going to heal. It still gives me some hopium for the people that need this help can also feel seen too and can get help before it gets so bad for them that they just close themselves off to the world and are incapable of engaging in conversations with people and just feel nothing but loathsomeness and bitterness towards themselves and the world.

[@lewt187]

Well apparently you being a loser is now MY fault somehow, so let me know when and where and we'll go get a beer together and I can explain some of the basics to you on how to interact with women so that you don't end up an incel shooter and I go to prison for it, since it's somehow going to be my fault.

[@lightofthemoon5566]

@@lewt187 You need to work on yourself.

[@michace]

I’m afraid that’s how I’ll end up in the near future… dead or barely living.

[@thisguynamedmatt12]

@@lewt187 its not bro trust i wont. Me being a loser is being contained and will never be released upon the world. Though you should try again in a year and a half when I am actually drinking age lmao. Would love that crash course

[@thisguynamedmatt12]

@@michace Bro keep living out of spite to your haters wake up every morning to be the bane of your opps day

[@TheGreatCrazyJake]

Not wanting to come off as creepy when you flirt has literally always been a thing I worry about ever since I was like 15/16. People in my class would make fun of me and call me ugly, pale, skinny, creepy and my favorite of them all… school shooter because I wore long sleeves under our school uniform polos. Even now I still get worried that if I flirt or even just start a conversation with a girl because I don’t want to get called creepy or weird.

[@illwill42]

I watched your original video covering the topic and, frankly, a lot of what you said about the topic applied to me. I have been improving, having gone on a couple dates recently, but still struggle in following up-- not because the woman wasn't interested, but because I was too anxious and self-doubting to plan out further dates. Its worth mentioning that a lot of guys in my age group [21-24] don't get too many chances to talk to women since we don't have any "third places" to meet people at naturally. This only worsens our anxiety over time. Thank you for consistently bringing light and attention to this problem, and I feel like those who choose to ignore the problem are only further fueling the fire brewing in the right. People used to always give me the same old tired advice that doesn't actually help-- but its great to hear from people who have a similar perspective and recognize an issue that many have laughed at or refused to acknowledge before you.

[@Kuuribro]

I'm a 33 year old man, and I have never grown out of this fear either. Let alone that I was a small, nerdy kid in high school, thats a bully setup on its own But even when I grew up, adulted, got a dream job in another country, I'm living a life that a lot of people would be envious of - still, how the fuck do I talk to, approach women without putting them off, being thought of as creepy or offputting. You're right, it never goes away. I spent a lot of time in my 20's in hyper-leftist circles and I really think that Tumblr broke me in a developmental time of my life. It made me overly sensitive to these topics, pre-empting the negativity and never wanting to make somebody uncomfortable. So yeah, these talks address men of all ages, not just younger guys.

[@c.karnstein3299]

@Tight n Nerdy that's what makes me wonder, these pick up artists always teach men that dating is a game. If you press the correct buttons and do the right things, you're owed a relationship. In reality nobody is owed one. And why not speak to women as if they are other humans instead of prizes at the arcade to be won.

[@disaster4550]

don't approach them

[@Jxanadu]

@@c.karnstein3299 Rhetoric, worthless advice that does nothing but alienate. Rejected, try again.

[@Stoddardian]

Fortune favors the bold, and you're not bold. That's really it. Looks is secondary. You need to have confidence.

[@Stoddardian]

@@c.karnstein3299 Talking to a woman like that is useless. He needs to learn how to flirt.

[@Pericles__]

We could also just stop approaching women who are unapproachable too. It's a very unattractive character trait, you probably don't wanna be with someone who treats normal social interaction like a threat. Loud, bold, confident women are paradoxically less intimidating to talk to. Give them some attention, they're usually much more receptive.

[@MusicMissionary]

Good point. The introvert + introvert thing isn't as ideal as it sounds.

[@XMysticHerox]

"Loud, bold, confident women are paradoxically less intimidating to talk to. " Why would that be paradoxical? Obviously someone sociable and who actually wants to chat is more approachable.

[@ImNotaRussianBot]

Aw, shucks. -loud, bold woman

[@JewTube001]

@@MusicMissionary as an introverted man i use to go for introverted women and it didn't go well at all.

[@MusicMissionary]

@@JewTube001 I tried that for many years. Those "matching" algorithms on dating sites seem to encourage it. I never would have matched with my wife. But we fit like hand in glove. Not that plenty of crap hasn't happened to us, but we support each other and we're happy. I wish that for my fellow men. Fuck cars & money. Happiness is what we need.

[@mutate34]

I was in my teens 20 years ago when Michael Moore and similar figures were cool - hanging out with metal bands, releasing best selling books, liked and listened to by teen boys, talking about respect in relationships etc. I think a Moore figure is needed today (even tho i had issues with him)

[@VMP666]

As a left-leaning, heterosexual man, I grappled a lot with insecurity when it came to contacts with women in my youth. It weighted heavy on my mind for most of my life, actually, despite me being relatively good looking. I was just kinda awkward. People liked me, I had female friends, but I was (and still am) very self-concious. What I would recommend to every male when it comes to getting more confident is, and you will laugh at me, martial arts. I would actually recommend learning some sort of fighting style to everyone. You don't have to become a boxer or an MMA fighter, you can do grappling or wrestling or light karate, but it can help tremendously with the feeling of one's body and presence, and can help with self confidence. It's also pretty interesting, getting to know other people training, and showing them that hey, a guy who is a lefty, bleeding heart artist and a vegan can also do this thing I am doing. I think talking to those dudes at the gym can also make them think a little bit about their world view. I know it made mw think about my world view. It's easy to be hard on people for their views when you don't know them at all. Anyway, thank you Vaush, you're a breath of fresh air on the left.

[@lewt187]

Did you blame that insecurity on women and become a right winger because of it? If not then your experience is not the same as what Vaush is purporting here.

[@VMP666]

@@lewt187 I don't think its as black and white as you put it here, but yes, one reason for my insecurity was being rejected at a very young age, and then again in my late teens. That really messed with my confidence. I became pretty religious, too. I never blamed women per se, but rather internalized it and thought it has to be a problem with me. But I had very supportive, intelligent parents, some cool friends and my art, that I would devote my thoughts and time to. If not for this safety net, who knows where I'd be now? So many young men don't have this. The family and the environment are important here. It's very easy to fall down the rabbit hole if the only people who accept you are the right wingers. Kind of a side note, if I was to give advice to young men when it comes to being more confident with themselves: try sports, martial arts are great, as I wrote before. Movement and excercise are super important for physical and mental health. Explore your hobbies, try and connect with other people with similiar interests. Get good at something, it can be anything. Try learning hard things and solving problems. Talk to people about stuff you like. Try not to take everything personally. Treat women like normal people. Don't spazz out, don't be pushy, don't be mean. Act friendly, tell a joke from time to time. Don't be a push-over, respect yourself. Don't be afraid to say no to things. If you're weird, be weird, that's fine - people are weird, and cool people are often very weird. Voice your opinions, but listen and let others talk. Don't be afraid to admit you don't know something. Apologize if you fucked up. Read some books, watch some movies. Be kind, but not to your own detriment. Don't overthink everything. The worst case scenario is very unlikely to happen. Make time for yourself. Think about your feelings and emotions, try to understand them. Be empathetic to others. Not everything is your fault, but it's also not always fault of anyone else. Sorry for that train of thought. Maybe someone finds anything interesting here.

[@darman210]

@2:20, it reminds me of the conservative “do your own research” rhetoric. It’s a pompous attitude that the Left should really work on removing. We should move away ignoring young men when they communicate their frustrations, this is especially true if we want them to feel comfortable with expressing feelings/vulnerability. Otherwise we look hypocritical by simultaneously saying “it’s ok to open-up” and “you’re a cis white-male, so whatever.” Also, conservatives do a better job of voting and we don’t want to help them increase their numbers.

[@jacobe1939]

On the whole “guys will remember a compliment 6 years later” thing, this is entirely true. I remember the first genuine compliment I was given about 6 years ago where a coworker told me I smelled nice. Totally caught off guard by it since it’s not something that really happens often, and made my little teenage brain happy for the rest of the day. It almost makes me sad, looking back on it, that something so small and innocuous could have such a huge positive impact on me, it would be a lot better for a lot of young developing guys (and everyone, really, but more so just generalizing to guys who don’t have that happen often) to hear even just small things like that every now and then

[@fruitygarlic3601]

I don't want to talk over your experience with typically male issues, but I have a similar story. A few years ago, at work, I was stocking perfume and a coworker said it was nice I always smelled solely and distinctly like soap. It meant a lot to me during a dark time in my life when I only showered to see other people and because it was the only compliment I received that year which was not sexual from a stranger. To this day it still keeps me from falling into rot.

[@Maxisamo1]

Adin Ross is definitely looking for money, but he also 100% never had a proper father-figure in his life and it shows. The fact he's so willing to allow Tate to brainwash him and STILL be so willing to become friends with Ethan Klien shows he just wants an older guy to connect with him- okay yeah I can see how people are making the gay jokes

[@scrimPinion]

I wish had a platform to talk about this, because I genuinely think my take on this issue isn't really being communicated to men enough. Vaush, you come dammed close to it, but I would probably approach it a little differently. The short version goes like this: I'm in my mid forties, I have thoroughly average looks, and a big gut. And a lazy eye. I've never been especially rich, or strong, or coordinated. ...and I have got up to some CRAZY stuff with the ladies, in my day, like, some "dear Penthouse" type shit, sometimes with more than one woman at a time. And I think the reason I've had those experiences isn't hard to explain, or replicate. I think a lot of the trouble comes with the approach a lot of guys take. They look at the whole topic of getting with a girl as like, a math problem or a contest, and that's a bad plan. It's honestly pretty simple: 1) find a woman who's actually interesting, to YOU. Not just "hot" or whatever; actually interesting to you. Shares interests, political views, etc. 2) talk to *those* women, and not in a weird "if I say the right things to this slot machine, sex will come out" way, because, and this is critical: 3) they're not a slot machine, they're an actual PERSON. Get the endgame out of your head. Make friends with someone you think is cool, and BE cool. Even if they're not your perfect idea of what a girl should look like, or be like. Even if you're not initially super attracted to them. Because that's not how you make friends. And you should be spending your time with people based on whether you like them, as people. Maybe they aren't romantically interested in you, and maybe you're not interested in them, either. Because that may change at some point, and even if it doesn't... maybe they will introduce you to someone else cool, who thinks you're cool too, and you ARE interested in each other romantically. But yeah: don't treat people as a means to an end. Don't let an end goal ruin your ability to make friends. Relax, get to know people you think are interesting. One of those people will be a match, if you don't close off connections with people who don't immediately give you something you think you should be getting from them.

[@yungtube7848]

Real good advice for the fellas right here

[@thelastjerkbender2505]

The toppest of all G's.

[@jeffreychandler8418]

the problem is I don't *find* most women interesting. I've only found *two* interesting and *both* ended up abusing me. why shouldn't I just treat it like a slot machine when *even when* I follow the good advice it ends we me *wanting to end my life*

[@scrimPinion]

@@jeffreychandler8418 look; this is some serious stuff, probably too serious for a KZbin comment section. I have sympathy for your position, and I'd like to get into actual answers to your questions...shit like "go to places that sound like stuff you'd be interested in, and meet people there." Stuff like that, which I don't necessarily think is bad advice or whatever, but that's kinda beside the point. What I want to tell you, what I hope you believe me when I say it's important and that you deserve it, and all that... what I want to tell you is: your loneliness is real, I'm sure, but your reaction to it is probably indicative that you may find real benefit from therapy. I'm not trying to be shitty, or judgemental. I think most people could benefit from therapy, and I really believe that you're worth that attention, and that it really could help you. Keep your head up, friend.

[@jeffreychandler8418]

@@scrimPinion I mean, That's the thing, I do the right things. I've gone to places with those I think I'd like. I do reach out. I do try to do the good shit. and it's overwhelmingly failed. I tried so hard to be a good friend to them I tried to do everything well and right and healthy *and they broke me* *it didn't matter* I've been in therapy for over a year at this point man, and He tells me the same shit. "well you have to get out there" "i encourage you to find groups you'll like" etc etc as if I haven't already tried. as if I haven't already failed irreversibly.

[@savvysmiles1121]

In my experience, I usually brace myself for an abrupt and uncomfortable come on any time a guy walks up to me on his own out of nowhere. It doesn't happen every time but it happens enough and it's dangerous enough in some cases that I automatically am on guard and trying to end the interaction out of fear. Maybe that's just my PTSD or whatever but I wouldnt suggest just going up to a random women especially if they are alone and especially if you're going to ask them out within the first 30 min of knowing them. If a guy set himself apart through his actions not his speech as someone who actually wanted to know me whether or not they were going to get some from me, I would be genuinely impressed and their chances would be better for both.

[@scrimPinion]

This. A million times this! My whole adult life, I've gotten up to some wild stuff with women, and it sure as hell wasn't my looks or my wealth or my strength or any of that: I have at best, an average amount of those things. You know what *does* seem to have worked very well for me, though? Treating women like actual people. Having normal-ass human conversations with them, about stuff I actually like talking about (cuz I don't spend time hanging out with women I don't actually find interesting, regardless of how hot they may be). A lot of women don't rush into sex or a date or whatever, because it could be dangerous for them, sure... but also, that's how you end up having bad sex/dates. And they're right, which is why I'm never in a hurry either. And I'll be DAMNED if that isn't an excellent strategy to get with women. Treat them like people, get to actually know them, and everything else goes a lot smoother, and comes much more naturally.

[@alewis514]

trying to "pick up" random women in the open is propably the most creepy way to get dates going. This works out about 10% of the time...for absolute 10/10 chads. For normal guys it's about 1% of the time or worse. It's really bad method of doing this, despite what pickup artists might tell you. Ever walked down a crowdy street and got pestered by leaflet distributors? Usually you kindly tell them to fuck off. They're intrusive and obnoxious, you don't like that, it's uncomfortable. A guy trying to ask out a random woman is ten times worse than this. Look around your school, univeristy or workplace. Plenty of single women in there, get them to know you, present yourself like a normal person, and then ask her out a dinner or sth. Don't fucking invade random women on the street or in the gym.

[@LloydWaldo]

Maybe even the message about “working on yourself,” isn’t necessarily fundamentally wrong, but it’s at least being conveyed in a negative and judgmental way, rather than in a way that is actually oriented to the real benefit that the advice is meant to confer. Maybe “take care of yourself.” Or even more to the point: “be kind to yourself,” is much better and more meaningful advice for young men. It was something that definitely took me many years to understand about this. Not merely in the intellectual sense, but in the emotional sense, being kind to yourself makes it easier for others to be kind to you. People like to be agreeable. If you have a realistic and pleasant self-image, people will see you the same way. If you are good to yourself, others will be good to you.

[@SuperDogWannabe]

I will say that I heard my dad say " I married my best friend" for my entire childhood. So for me, the expectation has always been that I'd find people who I genuinely want to be close to as a friend before I'd think about pursuing them. Dudes who hit on me on my way from point A to B will always feel superficial in comparison.

[@jeffreychandler8418]

I was abused by someone who took me asking them out after, basically spending three weeks willingly together, as like... me moving it too fast (despite the friendship being mutual) by the end she had gotten a boyfriend and threw into my face "it grew slowly over a year, he was my friend first" I had been a ride or die friend for 2.5 years at this point. so when I hear "the expectation is for them to be my friend" it hits at my core because... that is allegedly what the expectation is... but's likely not in reality, and if there's a mismatch, god... it can get so bad

[@pStabs]

The thing that stuck out to me in this talk is that the caller has the same insecurities and response to friendships as I do! I didn't know this was something that men struggled with! Are they really my friend? They don't seem to want to talk to me. When I pull away, they don't notice/care. I mean I should have figured that it wouldn't be a gender thing but for some reason, my brain didn't allow me to consider that the male friend of mine who has pulled away might just need some reassurance of our friendship, the same way I do.

[@mutate34]

hate how there's so many comments saying "why should I care about middle class white men being insecure" when Vaush literally explains in the video how Tate and Red Pill fandom is growing among ethnic minorities and kids from tough backgrounds

[@Sqwivig]

I'm a 24 year old woman. My interactions with men have objectively gotten worse throughout my life. Insecure young men (and older men too) have been snatched up by the right and it feels like my well being is at stake every time I try to hook up or date someone. And when I finally find someone who isn't a threat to me physically or mentally, (and has actual good politics) they are so wrapped up in self hatred and insecurity that they can't commit to even the simplest romantic relationships. I dated a guy for like a year where all we did was hang out on weekends, play video games, watch anime, and have sex. Nothing crazy, just chill vibes. I mentioned a couple times I could see a future with him, and that was enough to scare him away and he dumped me. It really feels hopeless. If we don't step up and solve this issue, it will be worse for EVERYONE. Thank you for talking about this issue. I've been screaming about it for years and it feels like no one took me seriously until the recent discourse happened.

[@Sqwivig]

@@theLunarDJ I live in rural Wyoming. Not very many choices out here. Most men are pretty misogynistic around here. And online dating is just a no-go for me.

[@missandry2669]

@@theLunarDJ Lies the crime stats don’t lie globally

[@missandry2669]

@@theLunarDJ You know it’s true

[@DasWonderhammer]

The lack of debate would’ve been disappointing if it weren’t for the beautifully articulated awareness of politically ideological thinking on both sides when it comes to mens identities in social spaces and conversations. Great clip.

[@Frosted_Moontips]

We need more leftist dudebros like myself to help de-radicalize other dudebros X3

[@TheFlinchyDinosaur]

I'd say a good portion of the time "creepy" is cis-het speak for "autism". This fact has ingrained itself so deeply in my brain that it affects every social aspect. I can't talk to people without feeling like I'm in dating sim, saying the right things at the right times just to hold a conversation properly. This is beyond dating too, this affects all my interactions with strangers. For as long as my autism is visible on the surface, I have to work hard to mask it.

[@VestigeFinder]

autism and or being unattractive. both are mostly incurable conditions

[@Stoddardian]

@@VestigeFinder You can be handsome as hell, but if you can't talk to a woman you're finished.

[@kaianthony8077]

2:38 / 29:23 It's interesting that the caller uses an extremely anecdotal set of interactions as his main argument against a pretty solid observation from Vaush

[@yinmn7889]

I think what’s so appealing to young men is that they see that being physically fit, smarter and wealthier as a means to the end of getting with women. I honestly think if we as a society instilled values of marriage and family structure they’d have no reason to seek these people out. It’s kinda obvious but I’m only economically left, there’s positive elements of the patriarchy that got us to the modern era such as assured paternity, the understanding you’d have the ability to get a partner, and being able to be the breadwinner for your home. What sucks about the modern era is men are losing the benefits of patriarchy while still having to live up to the negative expectations. One example is the fact that men and women make the same amount of money but men are expected to pay for dates.

[@adrianpetyt9167]

"You know how when you're at a party "? Mate, the guys seen as creepy, wimpy, nerdy or uncool don't know. They were never invited to parties in the first place!

[@Chris-dx4mf]

This really stuck a cord with me and helped me understand a lot of the feelings I’ve had. I think it could also be related to people being shut ins and depressive. Thank you.

[@TheSaneMongrels]

The left has spent a lot of time and energy (and rightfully so) into improving the lot of women-providing resources, roadmaps, representation, and support to young girls and women. As part of this fight to empower women, there has been a push to break down gender roles (again, rightfully so) and say to women "Yes, you CAN do x or y", "Yes, you CAN be x or y and not only does that not make you less of a woman, it's an empowering choice". But this has left a gaping chasm for men-it's unclear what it means to be a man, and what supports, roadmaps, and resources there are for being a man now. There's little representation in terms of positive and (probably most importantly) respected male role models. So, into that gaping anxious cavern swoops the right with all sorts of positive narratives, actionable steps, and a promise that if you work hard enough you can carve a place out for yourself-be a successful man. When all the left offers men is uncertainty, criticism, and a narrative that "men" are creepy and the problem, it's little wonder our boys and young men are seduced by figures like Tate and Peterson.

[@Jack-ns9sz]

"So, into that gaping anxious cavern swoops the right with all sorts of positive narratives, actionable steps, and a promise that if you work hard enough you can carve a place out for yourself-be a successful man. When all the left offers men is uncertainty, criticism, and a narrative that "men" are creepy and the problem, it's little wonder our boys and young men are seduced by figures like Tate and Peterson." Fantastically put!

[@skyfalldeadpool1633]

Talking about complimenting each other. I am that type of person who compliment my girlfriends or strangers. Like of you have. A nice smile, or haircut, or tattoo or a nice dress or dressed nice. I like to leg people know they look good. I like to smile and great strangers or make a small talk in a train or office. But I stopped complimenting guys or shrinking random convoy with most men who are under age of 70 not because I want to do hate them or anything. It just they take it as flirting and have to show them my ring or even when I do some are creepy enough to not care or get angry and have to make an awkward fearful exit of that encounter because they thought I " lead them on". Not that I do not compliment close men in my family or husband circle or family. It is just not sexual. I just like to make people feel good for their effort or thank them for their actions that they went out of their way to do even they didn't have to. I give my husband compliment daily. Even when he start balding and started to cut his hair bald I think his shiny head and his beard make him look like a bad ass lumberjack biker. Or rough action movie star. He used to have long nice shiny Mediterranean strong dark hair before he started to lose it. I believe men like compliment just like women but they are socialised to not expect them or not get them at all.

[@blackwatertv7018]

Arch recently made a video about this. Where he basically goes “Ya, what Tate did or is accused of doing is horrific HOWEVER he wasn’t wrong about the war on men” which doesn’t surprise me as much coming from him anymore. At least with videos like this. Honestly I prefer how Voosh is going about this issue. Hes still Fully condemning Andrew Tate, and calling out what he did is horrific and awful. While going “hey we should maybe prevent this from happening?”

[@Terminalsanity]

Its not a war on men, its men/boys being raised with a set expectations that don't lend themselves to either professional or social success in the modern era and people on the left broadly being unable to distinguish individual men from the patriarchy which many people on the left unconsciously perpetuating aspects of particularly in regards to being unemphatic towards men in general. The result is you have crackpots on the right selling young men the same BS that won't work now while left has failed to offer young men a new model while they chastise young men for being raised the way they were raised. Thus inkeeping with the structure of the patriarchy if a young man can't mange to figure out a path on their own they'll sink through the cracks and no one will much care until the problem becomes too big to ignore.

[@wanabisufi8843]

The guy mentions guys should learn to take rejection on the chin and not care, but when women reject guys they often don't just reject them, they whisper about these men to their friends or call him creepy for even expressing he was lonely.

[@joshv.1490]

So, for what it's worth, here is my assessment of the situation, and why I think the "left doesn't do x well" narratives aren't worthwhile: The right operates on a consistent offensive to maintain a power dynamic and to make money grifting in the process. The algorithm favors them, the media favors them, and a great deal of the public are going to overtly or subconsciously support at least some elements of what they have to say. The right, and these institutions largely, aren't seeking to achieve any degree of systemic change or evolution while they're exploiting a system that rewards them. This is the privilege of hegemony. So, to frame the left as failing at what the right is doing is to seemingly overlook the challenge they are up against while also playing the game in a way that will require overcoming resistance every step of the way. I'm not saying we should give up, and over time I believe we change the look and feel of society for the better, but it's in a way that is easy to overlook until you realize how much you're cringing about behavior you see in shows from even ten years ago.

[@isawasquirrel9422]

The last debate Vaush did where the caller brought up this exact point was pretty frustrating to me because Vaush just hand waved that fact away. I've been getting non-stop turning points and daily wire ads on every video I watch, even lefty videos. That's millions of dollars at work, something the left just doesn't have.

[@joshv.1490]

@@isawasquirrel9422 exactly this! Lefties aren't trying to grift by and large. We don't have billionaires backing social well-being and egalitarian movements. We are rebels and we have to use a different approach while that larger systemic change where we do better prioritize what is actually important is what we're trying to achieve.

[@kirausamaria5409]

Some therapists can help you to do exercises in order to develop your social skills and reduce social anxiety. And having a good circle of friends also helps because you can see how they socialize and take note, and they will be on your side lifting your self esteem and confidence up.

[@mercyjokes2d696]

The guy who called in, I could clearly hear his anticipation, but he held his thoughts in a cohesive manner and I respect that, even if I didn't agree with him. He is a great person and I hope he keeps going with the nuances of left. We need him.

[@matthewarnold4557]

He wasn't necessarily wrong, he just missed the forest for the trees

[@mercyjokes2d696]

@@matthewarnold4557 you said that far more eloquently than i

[@thelightwielder]

I can remember every time a woman my moms age said she loved my hair. I can't remember a single time a woman my own age has said the same.

[@seesaweffect8095]

insecurities are pretty different between genders but i wouldnt say one side has it better than another one. i mean yeah an awkward girl at school might not get called creepy as often for a simple interaction, but she'll generally be judged more harshly for her appearance and other girls could easily consider her weird or annoying. as a girl its super easy to feel disgusting and like no one would want to be around you, if youre fat or have body hair or arent feminine or just think you look ugly. and a lot of the time its enforced by other women who project their insecurity onto eachother. i guess feminists have talked the whole beauty standards thing to death but honestly it hasnt changed the fact that women are still way more harshly judged by their looks.

[@senitoni]

@@MorbidlyObscureI feel the same way. I feel there’s a cartoonish image of women being painted when Vaush talks about female socialisation because it’s not as simple as he makes it seem, and women can be treated as social outcasts too

[@JewTube001]

i would argue women have it better because it's easier to fix looks. there's no liposuction for autism. with guys you'll get a pass for being awkward as long as you're not too ugly. (just talking about hetro dating here, not sure how other women will treat you)

[@seesaweffect8095]

@@JewTube001 im honestly just talking about general insecurity and loneliness which is affected by more than dating. though even to ur point the percentage of ppl who are able to afford plastic surgery is insanely small. i agree that men face unique issues of loneliness and have circumstances that need to be talked about way more than they are. but i think these convos lead too often to generalization and oppression olympics.

[@MorbidlyObscure]

@@JewTube001 ah yes, the two genders: autism and gettin liposuction.

[@psybernaught]

Drinking game: Take a drink every time Vaush grooms his beard.

[@Ariana-zr2cr]

I agree with the caller. I also feel that the left does put effort and have their own narrative by motivating men to be more expressive, emotional, and stay away from toxic masculinity. Maybe it’s not a huge platform but in my experience at least, I see mor women that show more emotions, are more sensitive and respectful.

[@AlexCab_49]

I'm glad Vanish mentioned the fear of coming off as creepy to women. I have that and that's why I rarely approach girls, I've even heard of girls complaining about their male friends having attractions toward them and such that it really makes you think "what's the point?". But what is wiere for me is if many young men are single, how is it that many young women are dating? Who are they dating if so many young men are single? It doesn't compute. Where are all these extra men coming from?

[@deadlyfremen7447]

Thank you Vaush for talking about this issue. I’m ALWAYS so worried about making women feel uncomfortable even in the most mundane of interactions. I feel like Frankenstein’s monster expecting women to run a mile screaming if I smile at them or make eye contact. I probably think this way because I am a feminist and I’m aware of how often women are assaulted and harassed by men. Which in turn is referred to pejoratively as ‘nice guy syndrome’. I’m probably overthinking it but man, dating just seems like a minefield. Low self-esteem also doesn’t help. I’m glad Vaush is talking about these issues.

[@ih8myfriends]

The best conversation starting vibes can be found in Milwaukee, just turn to the person next to you at the bar. People actually listen and are really nice. Even the 1 homeless guy that came up to me was pleasant and articulate.

[@ImNotaRussianBot]

That's just the Midwest. I live in Ohio and I have casual conversations with many folks- in the checkout line, in an elevator, at a stoplight (waiting to cross). Growing up in New York, I found it nosy and intrusive, but it allows folks to see each other as humans. Not as NPCs/obstacles in your way. Btw, the New York way is great, too. Being polite there is minding your own business and not forcing yourself and your opinions on strangers. So, both cultures are good and bad in a sense.

[@daytimesky]

"Year of the autist?" I have autism, and I also have female friends, who I've gone on trips with from time to time, though we otherwise interact only online. But anyway, what makes 2023 the year of the autistic?

[@Juhz0r]

The Leftist Owl is a swell fella.

[@bevvy.bee9]

10:25 Yeah vaush is very spot on about this, if I didn't have any other reasons to be on the left, this would be my reason to be on the right. At some point, it becomes very weird just trying to make friends with a lady becuz of that nagging feeling that they'll find you creepy. At some point, you feel the need to completely reject this feeling, and that may lead you to reject women in general

[@AlokosyFTW]

I think this would be an appropriate video to put this little tidbit. Practise soft engagements with women. It’s not easy if you’re awkward but you can literally practise some easy talking points for light social situations. It’s not supposed to be a drawn out conversation, just something light to break the ice, ask them their name, thank them for their time and then move on like you’ll never see them again. This is how I moved away from assuming every women thought I was creepy. The conversation carried no expectation, and even if she did think I was creepy, that’s on her because I just wanted to practise my social skills. Note: not saying this will help you get laid tho

[@clarissanavarro2762]

Here is the thing for me,... as a trans-woman, Before I embraced transition, I was terrified of approaching women. Once I transitioned, suddenly talking with women,... even flirting with women... ( I am femme-preferring pan ),... it just seems so easy and I think a Lot of it IS presentation.

[@baronblackdragon9078]

I’m an ftm (pre-transition) and I’m also afraid of women.

[@clarissanavarro2762]

@@baronblackdragon9078 I think that Vaush hit it right, when he says women compliment each other more, and it is perceived as a genuine compliment. I have noticed that when I was "boy-moding" if I complimented a woman's hair, or outfit, or boots... ( I am in Love with heels), it would be accepted with either politeness, or just frostiness if not downright hostility. But, now... since I present as a woman, although I am NOT cis-passing. ( still need FFS, etc...) women are cordial, and glad to receive the compliment, and many times I actually find myself in pleasant conversations with them, about where they shop, etc... or where they go to do their hair. I think part of the problem for men is... and I have no solutions, other than transitioning to a woman...ok, half kidding... that we see a man walking in our direction, and the first thought in our heads is.." am I vulnerable? where is the nearest lamp post? is there a safe place to run to?" usually the later in the night, the more this is in our heads. Then the next set of questions is..." does this man LOOK safe ?" These are sadly concerns that men need to address. Do NOT approach women near alleys addresses the first... what addresses the second I am clueless about. Usually if a man seems safe, and Yes,... has taken a shower, and wears clean clothres, cologne, anti-persperant, then a SINCERE compliment will be accepted more positively. Another thing... men do not know how to just talk to women without the thought of fucking us being in their heads,.... unless we are just plain unattractive. But then the question is.... why are you talking to us?? Yes, it IS a vicious cycle. One I have no idea how to circumvent. The ONLY thing I can think of is,.... as a trans man that used to " woman-mode." try to remember what it was about that period in your life, that had women reacting positively.

[@baronblackdragon9078]

@@clarissanavarro2762 well no my problem is a lot of girls just make fun of me.

[@clarissanavarro2762]

@@baronblackdragon9078 Sadly people can always be mean. I wish I could leave you with some helpful insights. Sadly, we gauge attraction first visually,... while love at first glance may or may not be real... attraction is usually an instant thing? I have no idea what your plans are in terms of your transition but I do wish you the best when it comes to finding relationships worthy of you.

[@baronblackdragon9078]

@@clarissanavarro2762 yeah I know, it just makes me feel really dysphoric. I’m a trans man but people (mainly girls) just see me as a weird lesbian thing

[@dinosmash69]

Bottom G got destroyed in this debate

[@teddybetts3254]

22:44 I have felt exactly the same way. When I was in college and I had a dorm, I was living with another guy and often his girlfriend would come over to spend time with him. She was average looking and had an average demeanor for a woman. I just like having her around. I liked the fact that she was there. I liked that there was a woman's presence. It just meant a lot to me.

[@stormillion5002]

You don't just have to "educate" young men, but also make them open for education. That can not only happen in school in today's hyperonline society, there must exist a space where young men can find 'cool' leftist etc

[@Enkarashaddam]

Again with the essentialist "patriarchy from patriarchy, therefore patriarchy" laziness from the left. As if we could measure Chads skull and derive the source of his patriarchy. And what makes it sting is it is willful laziness.

[@jonsmith9838]

vaush women don't have to worry about being creepy but things can still be awkward for them for other reason. them not wanting to lead people all or coming of as bitch if they turn then or being the annoying girlfriend in a guy's group. or being accuse of friend zone people or being called a slut. this doesn't dismiss the guys worry but to note both sides have anxiety. and understanding that a key to talking to each other

[@twitchtheking4950]

I agree and I think this is really important for every guy to understand the other side but when we talk about men's issues we need to keep the conversation focused on men's issues. Everytime guys try to speak about their experiences or struggles in the world there is someone telling us that women have it just as bad if not worse. And again I agree with you but we need to have the space to air out grievances, talk about solutions and help each other navigate socially without our issues being dismissed.

[@wanderingstar5270]

Women are not seen as a threat by men or women. Generally women are safe and welcome. Men get called creepy rightly or wrongly because men do seek sex from women and can become violent when rejected. I’m not sure how to solve that because often people are not good at knowing others motives.

[@justsomeguy6336]

You can’t solve that.

[@missandry2669]

Exactly

[@missandry2669]

Men don’t get the creepy label until they actually creepy

[@mvslice]

This convo really showed how easy this could be if we just stopped being weird about it.

[@joshuadamian1190]

I never heard of Andrew Tate until he got arrested and man, he’s so violent against women. Like this is so ridiculous. Good thing I don’t support him and I’ll never will support him.

[@isawasquirrel9422]

Please stop saying "the left" broadly and say who on the left you want to start this outreach. The left has many women who have been genuinely hurt by men. It has guys like me who are more feminine and want to explore gender fluidity. It has trans men who often have very different experiences than cis men. Is it the responsibility of victims of a toxic masculine structure to do this outreach, or is it possible that you who are more masculine and can relate more to the disaffected young men you're worried about can start that outreach and not just blame everyone else for not doing something you're in the best position to do? Seriously, Vaush, I'm a fan, and I do agree that we ought to try our best to stop young men from falling down right wing rabbit holes, but holy shit, stop blaming "the left" ambiguously and just start doing it! Dm Xander, Shark, and all the lefty men complaining about this and start a coalition to do outreach. I'll support it, I'll share all the videos, I'll pass the talking points along to the middle and high schoolers I work with, I'll be great! I know you're not on good terms with him but FD has really good videos on masculinity and has been talking about it for years. So far, the only thing coming out of this discourse is right wing media using your takes to further dunk on the left and a bunch of male leftist streamers complaining without actually producing and promoting positive examples of masculinity on the left (which, btw, there absolutely is a lot of content about positive masculinity. They don't have millions of dollars in Koch money to spread their version of masculinity like the right does though).

[@lberghaus]

It should be mostly men who start this outreach.

[@isawasquirrel9422]

@@lberghaus Agreed. One of the problems I have is it seems like the men who are best equipped to start it are spending more energy just ambiguously blaming "the left" for andrew tate's appeal.

[@antondresucks]

There is a huge opportunity within the left to promote self-worth outside of the narrow roles society puts on men. We take beauty standards and gender roles seriously unless we’re addressing assumed men, and I think that’s primarily because the societal expectations on men are still held widely by left and right and acceptable expression of gender identity are very very narrow.

[@antondresucks]

@YouToob Blows oh yeah, right, that’s the problem! Fuck a systemic critique, no one has ever told them to just be a good person. Genius

[@jeffreychandler8418]

and what does the left choose? if you can't get a girlfriend you are toxic they claim to have the answers, and they do, but OPT IN to not

[@jeffreychandler8418]

@YouToob Blows lmao wrong

[@jeffreychandler8418]

@YouToob Blows also big difference between "loser" and "toxic" but go off live in your bubble

[@gaelicfemboy7763]

Left: Traditional roles for men, freedom from roles for women Right: Traditional roles for men, traditional roles for women Why would any man want to be left-wing?

[@brianfinlay756]

Let's be honest. People who say "it's not my job to educate you" are just trying to justify being lazy.