Are the Rights of Men Under Attack? Debating a Men's Rights Activist

[@testoftempest]

🔥 BRAND NEW SECOND CHANNEL 🔥 - kzbin.info/door/dUD6racxisHiSX9iWFcuug The second channel is for all the extra content that won't be uploaded to this channel. Anything from shorts, highlights, compilations, stuff that is more niche, things hard to monetize, etc. We already have a few vids up! ⏱Timestamps 0:00 Intro 4:30 MRAs & The MRA Community 10:32 Feminism vs Progressive Advocacy 14:05 Women Protesting For Life Long Alimony? 21:19 Definitions of Rape Culture and Toxic Masculinity 28:55 Why Do We Call It a Rape Culture? 37:00 False Accusations 50:35 “Anyone can be a rapist” 54:30 Toxic Masculinity 1:05:50 Men Bad? 1:11:36 He Made a Misleading KZbin Video? 1:30:00 “MRAs Have Headass Talking Points” & His Selective Bias 1:33:56 What Civil Pushes He Wants. Do We Agree? 1:47:57 Guys Hate Women 1:52:40 Ideal Masculinity & Wrapping Up

[@affordablecareactof]

Kasol my love

[@NeoDeity]

The link has letters that spell out racxis, lol.

[@WackadoodleMalarkey]

"Anyone can be a racxis"

[@randyohm3445]

Wait, you're back? Does Vaush have two editors now? I'M SO CONFUSED!

[@esosa7725]

Hijacking the pinned comment to share a sane place to talk about men's issues. Check out r/menslib, pretty cool place.

[@Time_Is_Left]

This guy is hung up on good people vs evil people. He needs for the people who do bad things to be evil. That’s not how humans work

[@stoneman472]

Notice that dehumanization? Pepperidge Farms noticed.

[@Mizar007]

As Camille says, "The world is neither black or white, but a delicious shade of gray."

[@TheGIGACapitalist]

Nice, it's the JLP value system but dressed up.

[@ashelfishisttortle]

My girlfriend is an actress, and she was taught that “no person does evil for the sake of BEING evil. They genuinely believe that what they’re doing is necessary” And that always stuck with me. According to their worldview, experiences and grievances, their actions are explained. Not justified, but explained. This was so she can play the role of the antagonist while not being som weird and cheesy “bwahaha I’m evil” character. And let me tell you. when she was an antagonist, You genuinely feared her bc she was motivated by something palpable that you couldn’t understand.

[@crustallos3023]

@@ashelfishisttortle Not true. Many people are inherently malignant and cause harm to people for the pure enjoyment of it.

[@manderly33]

This guy: “these feminists sure do generalize a lot.”

[@lalitthapa101]

I DiSaGrEE

[@EsotericOccultist]

Next he will say Trump is racist for having the foresight to do a travel ban at the onset of a deadly pandemic or that it's racism against Africans to purchase the slaves they sell.

[@kaemonbonet4931]

I saw this comment exactly when he was talking about friends who make false rape allegations out of court and that being why he couldn't believe all women.... Wtf lol.

[@pogo8050]

@@EsotericOccultist it’s racist to buy slaves and treat them like subhumans specifically because of their race, regardless of who sells them.

[@pogo8050]

@@jessewright2319 sounds like you’re projecting just a bit

[@XxSeedOfEvilxX]

This guy is exactly why we need consent classes, when you just make out someone who rapes to be a psychopath and don't consider yourself to be one, you automatically absolve yourself from any introspection to see if you engage in any behavior that could be part of this widespread problem. Hell, psychologists during the Nurenberg trials were pressured to find divergent traits within those who carried out the Holocaust and yet came to the conclusion that nothing about them was particularly different from the regular populace. Just because you want them to be monsters and psychopaths doesn't make it the case.

[@tbode9369]

Hi fellow 3 Arrows follower ^^.

[@crustallos3023]

Psychology was not nearly as developed as it is now during the Nuremberg trials, and now we can see a much more complex range of traits that would have been missed in 1946. Gustave Gilbert's theories on the Nazi mind have been almost wholly eclipsed by more accurate theories since at least the 60's.

[@ometta7]

@@crustallos3023 You got any recommended reading about that topic? I'm fascinated with learning about the psychology of Nazism.

[@gillesdupouy8357]

@@ometta7 I recommend "Eichmann in Jerusalem : a report on the banality of evil" by Hannah Arendt, who got a lot of backlash during the Eichmann trial because she was pointing out that he wasn't a crazy man or a fanatic, but rather an ordinary man "just following orders". She explains how and why it doesn't take insanity, cruelty or despair to commit atrocious acts

[@ometta7]

@@gillesdupouy8357 I think I might've read about that one. That's the one that people claim (I think erroneously) coined the term "desk murderer" and applied it to Eichmann, right?

[@adamrutherford8523]

"people know what rape is and that it's wrong" Proceeds to demonstrate he has no idea.

[@jorgealbertohernandezgutie7696]

Don't need for legal education, folks! Everybody know what crime is and that it's wrong!

[@themachine5647]

Right leaning mindsets tend to make human evil into some kind of alien, "other" thing that only cartoon characters do, because it's really hard for them to accept their mindset might be wrong, that they too could potentially have utterly *wrong* views that could potentially lead them to being on the wrong side of history, so they bury their heads and choose to "conserve" their own way of thought rather than self-examine and prepare to change their views. Conservatism by name and definition is about adhering to a thing and not changing, so it's natural that racists and people who *know* they doing things society considers wrong retreat to conservatism, they know they can con conservatives to believing them if they also convince them that they're allies. "He can't be a bad person, he believes the same things I do!" might as well be the conservative mantra. Progressives, also by definition, seek progress and are capable of calling out things that need to be changed to achieve that progress, that's also where so much of this "the left hates America" rhetoric comes from. Leftists are more ready to understand human failings and call out systems that sustain these failings. Leftists are more able to understand that data overrides personal feelings even if it makes you wrong. It's better to admit wrongness and move forward than hold onto an idea that may hurt people. This is also unfortunately why the left is so fractured and splintered, because no two people are going to agree on what these things are.

[@acutecloudd7970]

Atleast he was good faith. Reading these comments i can see why people don't want to talk to left leaning folk

[@Skag_Sisyphus]

Oh god, right?! It's so irritating I had to shut it off and take a break. People don't understand consent. I can't tell you how many times I've told a dude I don't want to fuck him after a party and he'll crawl over to me while I'm passed out and try to fuck me and calling a dude like that rapey is dangerous because he doesn't think he is. Or told a boyfriend to get off and been told "just a minute" and like 10 minutes later, they just won't get off even if it's physically hurting you. People think sexual assault is when a bad guy jumps out of the bushes and rapes someone and nothing else.

[@stevenclark5173]

@@Skag_Sisyphus I think you are just hanging around the wrong people. I've been to drunken frat parties and even while highly intoxicated none of the guys would ever do something like that. That's pretty damn rapey.

[@jirojairo90]

All the girls I've dated and most of my female friends have a story of someone sexually abusing them or trying to. From family members to ex-friends to significant others thinking they own them. It's really fucked.

[@aaendi6661]

That's anecdotal evidence.

[@fangsabre]

@@aaendi6661 its anecdotal, but it also aligns with the data that 1 in 4 women will experience sexual assault in their lives

[@hoominbeeing]

​@@fangsabre Which was from a survey lmao. It's no better than @Jirokai's anecdotal "evidence".

[@aaendi6661]

@@fangsabre The data was done based on anecdotal evidence.

[@fangsabre]

@@aaendi6661 no, it wasn't. It's based on an academic survey with a credible sample size.

[@TheVivaciousNerd]

-"everyone understands consent, rapists are just lying when they pretend not too" -"is it even rape if the person doesn't understand consent?" 🙃

[@ogluqqychess4452]

More flip flops in this video than the red light district in thailand

[@esmeralda6111]

Yes, the person has to understand that there is consent. It must be cristal clear. If u don’t understand what u do u may have problem.

[@StubbeA]

The guy's whole "Rape is bad and everyone knows it and rapists are ostracized" argument against rape culture really reminds me of Innuendo Studios' Angry Jack videos, specifically the part where Jack gets to believe sexual assault is done by psychopaths with ski-masks, because his privilege-bubble hasn't popped yet. And as long as he remains ignorant, he doesn't have to consider whether he is part of the problem, which is an uncomfortable idea to face.

[@NocturnalRecords7]

"Rape is bad and everyone knows it and rapists are ostracized" His actual take is "People that do rape (for most part) know that what they are doing is wrong" - I would not mention "narcisim" or anything else here. *i wont be defending his other takes in the rest of the video because they are weak af. Vaush take "No they are not aware" - I can agree with Vaush on pretty much anything BUT this take is waaay too naive even for him (its a take of someone inside a bubble) His entire worldview (as he mentioned) is based on most popular cases that are covered in the media. *its like covering BLM/Civli Rights or any other popular movement based on thumbnails... To develop a better understanding he would need to dig into allot of police/psychiatric reports. It would be much better if he(and the other guy) went with more descriptive arguments ....instead with got take.... a child would have. This is the weakest video i saw by far....perhaps its fault of a subject?...no idea. One thing i could agree on for sure is that people in general (men and women) need some education on boaundries and consent - You can never have enough of this...even tho it would be nice to have pools and studies that precisely show what is the actual % of people confused on that subject by region/state/country. *this is perhaps why i got irritated the most - they should have lead with percriptive arguments and stats instead this "look at this post on reddit - its supporting my point" Apologies for the essay.

[@spookson5679]

What he said was right tho privledge bubble had nothing to do with it, rape culture implies that rape is normalized by society, which isn't true, everyone agrees that rapists are bad and they get ostracized from mere accusations

[@bedosar]

@@spookson5679 You sure because Bill Cosby is out and being defended by a lot of people also where is Mike Tyson right now, here is the ostracization for him.

[@garywebb2432]

@@NocturnalRecords7 vaush is closer to reality than the other guy

[@Lastrit_JME]

@@NocturnalRecords7 I'd say Vaush's take isn't really that bad. He's not saying no one who rapes knows why it's wrong. He's saying such a massive prevalence of rape and sexual assault in the US and around the world stems from people not knowing full well what consent is. A lot of guys in America just don't think certain things are rape. So many men think that not hearing a no means yes, or that consent can't be taken away in the middle of the act. They aren't aware that they did something wrong.

[@AnarchyIsLove]

I really don't like how he's more concerned about being falsely accused than the 95% of real cases, or the uncountable cases that weren't reported. Rape culture keeps women ignorant too, if she doesn't understand she was being raped then how can she report it?

[@LoneWulf278]

I read that men are more likely to be sexually assaulted than they are to be falsely accused of sexual assault. Also, they’re more likely to be falsely accused of murder than they are to be falsely accused of rape. Yet, they choose to hitch their horse to the issue of false rape accusations because it helps form a stronger position of conflict (even though they actually share a lot of issues and interests with us).

[@pickyphysicsstudent201]

I have no idea where you are getting "95% of real cases" figure from. From what I can tell most forms of research into this area are tainted by feminist dogma training for police officers who have to investigate under the feminist lense (filter). Meaning that they can never ask the accuser for any details or any tough questions. Can't ask them something twice encase they might change their story. The courts and police are pretty much meant to bow down to women making accusations. Even the feminist research (lies) which give the (false) figure that "only 2-8% are false accusations" have the criteria for false accusation being that she as caught red handed, in a lie and then admitted it was false. From my own research into this, listening to people have been own the rabit hole, are apart of the innocence project or other big name groups which care for men and try to uncover the truth and my experience with women's psychology. From all of that, I would say that a good 75% of men accussed by women are innocent.

[@AnarchyIsLove]

@@pickyphysicsstudent201 I would say you're wrong so let's leave it there. Women aren't out to get you. In fact, I'm 100% sure they avoid you.

[@zoologistsnightmare]

@Picky Physics Student lmao so you have no source to prove the consensus on this is “lies“ and “false“ (or even “feminist“) but men‘s rights groups are completely reliable because that‘s just how you feel? where tf is this 75% stat coming from lol

[@AnarchyIsLove]

@@zoologistsnightmare and if anyone is working with the feminists, it's definitely the cops lol idk wtf they're on about

[@HollyComstock15]

This guy's wilful ignorance about how rape works is proof of why consent classes might actually be a good idea.

[@pcwildcat]

Agreed. He is unknowingly making a really good case for why consent classes are necessary.

[@LiamPorterFilms]

Revisit the heyday of the MRA movement with the new 100-minute documentary on Sargon, the MRMs, and GamerGate: YT search for "MRA Munted, Random"

[@JM-rh3nv]

I get the impression that he's trying to come at this in good faith (at least for a lot of the discussion), but he's really confused and conflicted. You can almost see him wrestling with the cognitive dissonance. I hope he made it out of all that.

[@JM-rh3nv]

Well shit. Made it to the end of the video. Dammit, I really thought this guy was trying to be honest.

[@mugwump9031]

This guy has 100% raped women.

[@alexandredesouza3692]

Say what you will about him, if he talked to Seder then he's more of a man than Crowder.

[@KarlSnarks]

True true, very low bar though ;)

[@ThePsychoRenegade]

Can't fault Sam for interrupting him if he was anything like this.

[@alexandredesouza3692]

@@KarlSnarks LMFAO TRUUUUUU

[@alexandredesouza3692]

@@ThePsychoRenegade Don't be a wokescold, this dude was pretty moderate. He'd make a good leftist someday.

[@e.j.d.rorchea6467]

Are you guys saying that crowder is a coward for not accept a debate he didn't agree with? That's ok you can think whatever you want. I wonder if you'd think the same thing about vaush if I show you how he throw shit to a guy and when this guy invites him to debate he said no because he knew he would be destroyed.

[@pinkducklett1051]

This started out so pleasant, he sounded well meaning just really ignorant but god damn this guy ended up being an idiot. Bros need to know what rape is to protect women and themselves, not all rapists are monsters they just need to learn consent and not be conditioned to be so sexually aggressive and prideful about it.

[@coffeepot3123]

I think the main problem is the general lack of communication between men and women. I believe anyone with any level of social life have witnessed arguments between a family member/friend and their partner at some point in time, and it's usually over the silliest of things. And with that in mind i'm highly doubtful that couples can even manage to communicate what they like and don't like in the bedroom. Thus negative experiences occur in the bedroom, and i say this with the known fact that the term rape has expanded into all that is non-consensual. I don't think Vaush has personally experienced the negativity that came with the "Feminist uprising" for a lack of a better word, back around 2009 on sites like Facebook. A lot of young men in their early teens etc felt that back then the feminist rhetoric (and still today) did a lot of harm to men. In my anecdotal life experience the result of that feminist rhetoric messed up my ability to date women in my early teen years. Because i had this constant fear that if i ever made a move on a girl that was into me i would be completely at the mercy of her response. Further fueled by the fact that rumors spread and the fear of being ostracized by the community was a constant thing in my mind. (NB: Obviously i'm not talking about fucking a girl against her will or anything like that, just general foreplay/cuddling) Feminism have pointed out huge problems like toxic masculinity etc, but to my knowledge they have *never* been able to have a proper dialog with men about these issues. And while i'm typing this i'm starting to wonder if the Vaush Quote "Feminists have been a general net benefit to men" has merely been random positive outcomes in some ways and not that "Feminists are helping men".

[@albinozebra276]

look at modern parenting, even schools.. do boys get taught anything like consent, compassion, and are held accountable? or are they just brushed off and coin the term “boys will be boys”

[@sgtbagels2059]

Vaush did a good job explaining “rape culture”. Even I didn’t have an understanding of it. It sounds like we have a “statutory rape culture” from what he described.

[@Whitepawprint]

@@coffeepot3123 just want to start out saying that I'm sorry you had a tough time dating etc. That genuinely sucks I do think it's a hard line to walk between stressing the importance of issues like consent, and causing people to become paranoid and over-policing themselves. I think especially for anyone who deals with anxiety, it's an easy thing to become fixated on, but generally speaking I think that's more tied to their personality/anxiety than necessarily the issue itself. (obviously not for all cases and all people, and not talking about your personal experience!) I do think it's frustrating that these conversations are generally ONLY discussed in terms of women's consent with men. There is an argument that women should be the priority, but I have certainly (anecdotally) heard SO MANY male friends talk about instances where they were pressured into sex without or against their consent, and that is equally horrifying. And obviously not all sex is between straight couples, there's so much more to talk about, and I hope we're (FINALLY) moving to a position where we can discuss ALL of these important issues. But it is difficult when some people do argue so hard against the idea that regular people can commit rape (even if unintentionally) and that "rapists" are only men who jump out of bushes at women in parks at night. (again, not a dig at you, but at people like this MRA guy who ultimately make it harder to talk about sexual assault of men) In terms of feminism's wider ability to improve the lives of men, I think advocating for women's rights ultimately opens the door on subjects like consent, domestic violence, emotional abuse, work culture, etc which does ultimately benefit everyone down the line. Unfortunately, society doesn't respond well to nuance, so you do *have* to make it a wedge issue, and point to "here's the most extreme and damaging version of this problem" as your opener, especially when you're having to argue that yes, this problem DOES EXIST ACTUALLY, to a society that doesn't give a shit about marital rape, etc. Once people acknowledge it exists, you can get into the nuance of "it exists, AND it doesn't have to be at knife point" (big take, I know), etc etc. I do 1000% feel the huge frustration that the benefits to men are much further down the road. We can all do more to be better advocates for men on these issues, and again, hopefully the less time spent arguing "these things happen to women" the more time we can spend saying "and it happens to men too". Or even take a two pronged approach! But we should all be able to rally behind improving human rights, it's not a pain Olympics, haha Hope that makes a bit of sense, just some of my general thoughts!

[@zacnieprawisz9171]

no mra is pleasant

[@TheGIGACapitalist]

"men have always been as sexualized as women" is a hilarious take and honestly an impressive display of mental gymnastics. And no, using rock stars who competed over who banged more women is not a good example.

[@Krooksbane]

The standard for attractive male in movies includes being over 6ft, with no bald spots, ripped body, perfect teeth, and possibly a music career. This beauty standard clearly is as toxic and inaccurate to men as one for women. I’m aware Women have a much longer history with it, and that it’s taken to higher levels within our society, but yeah men have always been sexualized too.

[@xzraiderzx308]

@@Krooksbane what you described is not sexualization, that's just beauty standards. Sexualization is (a bit of an extreme example) when guys lost it over Billie Eilish even when she explicitly wore baggy clothing as to hide her physique and didn't heavily adhere to beauty standards like a supermodel. The point is being sexually aware of even basic features. You almost never see that behaviour for men. If celebrities with picture perfect physiques are the only ones that get sexually appreciated then that means men as a whole are not sexualized.

[@Krooksbane]

@@xzraiderzx308 I respectfully disagree, what I have described is indeed sexualization. However your point still stands in regards to women.

[@xzraiderzx308]

@@Krooksbane beauty standards are sexualized qualities yes, but when people talk about sexualization they're referencing more than just the qualities that adhere to those strict standards. Again, doesn't it prove the point that sexualization is not as loose and broad for guys since you first and foremost brought up male celebrities who almost always strictly adhere to male beauty standards?

[@Krooksbane]

@@xzraiderzx308 I’m not claiming that men are more sexualized than women, I’m simply pointing out that the sexualization of men, has always existed along side the sexualization of women, it just either goes unnoticed, or is not taken as seriously nowadays. That’s all I’m saying

[@BlueOniLink09]

I like how this dude is so critical about data that goes against his claims but when he's talking about false rape accusations 5% and 40% are basically the same.

[@BlueOniLink09]

@Lut Akum Well, that depends on what we mean when we say drunk. Usually most people saying not to have sex with drunk people refer to when a person has become black out drunk or is obviously in a very altered state of mind(stumbling around, slurred speech, difficulty with critical thinking, etc.). No one is referring to just having a couple of beers, which I feel is a common misunderstanding when talking about this topic, either intentionally or not. In the case where both people have reached this stage of inebriation both would be able to say they were too drunk and I doubt it would go anywhere in court, but the majority of time you hear someone talk about this it's a situation where one party has purposefully gotten the other one very drunk for the purpose of having sex with them, knowing that they'd be either unconscious or in such a state of mind they would agree to something they would not agree to while sober.

[@maxinesenior596]

@Lut Akum No one is at fault for things that happen to them while intoxicated/otherwise unable to take action in things that happen to their body.

[@TheHanyuuuuu]

@Lut Akum if someone robbed you at the party you when you were blackout drunk it is still a robbery and thief do not have a "right" to your stuff just because you were drinking irresponsibly.

[@FunkyBananaBear]

@Lut Akum You could literally say the same bad argument if someone is sleepy. Or a different scenario: It would be like you saying, well, you did go on that business trip, it's your fault your boyfriend cheated on you during it.

[@TheRiddam]

@@TheHanyuuuuu What a weird example. Having sex isnt a crime robbing and stealing from someone is..

[@JonathanAdami]

How disingenuous of him... "who doesn't know that raping is bad" what a poor understanding of human psychology... Hell, even murder, some people don't quite get why it's bad.... Also that's a typical "I don't know anybody who" well... good for you then, I personally don't know any racist person cuz I select them out, doesn't mean I solved racism now did I? did I? haha

[@DingoTheDemon]

Yeah, as soon as he was saying that stuff I was like "You get how that's worse, right?" Like, what he's implying is that there are huge swaths of sociopathic people who know what rape is and why it's bad but don't care at all. As cynical as I am, I really cannot believe that is the case. If he really wanted to be an advocate for men's rights in good faith he would recognize that rape culture is also detrimental to men (the belief that men can't be raped, the concept of prison rape jokes, etc.).

[@c.karnstein3299]

You won't change a sociopaths nature by telling them what is wrong. However, there are a lot places around the world that see women as property, culturally, that would benefit from a complete overhaul.

[@spookson5679]

But plenty of rapists know what they're doing is bad, but don't care, i don't know the exact statistic but it's an understandable assumption to make

[@lProN00bl]

@@DingoTheDemon Like, what he's implying is that there are huge swaths of sociopathic people who know what rape is and why it's bad but don't care at all. As cynical as I am, I really cannot believe that is the case. Then you area naive child and need to grow up. I've known people that committed suicide even after being found innocent because of all the harassment from people like you.

[@DingoTheDemon]

@@lProN00bl What are you on about? Who have I harassed?

[@singularity___]

Awhile ago, I told my dad to stop bringing up an ex after seven+ years because he had sexually abused me, and the response was "do you feel stupid for falling for it?" This has stuck with me; while pain and resentment is admittedly still present, that question is so indicative/representative of the fact that we desperately need to change the way that we perceive and talk about sexual abuse/ rape. That kind of viewpoint came from somewhere, and unfortunately, is not uncommon.

[@b00psn00t]

I’m sorry to hear you have such a shitty father. Hope you know there are a lot of kind people out there rooting for ya. Stay strong. Thanks for sharing!

[@belkyhernandez8281]

I'm sorry that happened.

[@VividBlueLava]

I am so sorry you had to go through that with both your ex and father. This hit hard for me of what many have to go through. It's heavy, depressing, and heartbreaking. Hope you're safe, healthy and happy (as much as possible with all considered) and hope and wish that your life just keeps getting happier and healthier.

[@singularity___]

Thanks all of you, so much. It really does mean a lot.

[@DellenoftheDell]

TW: I absolutely know how you feel. When I got out of a relationship that was obviously unhealthy that my dad had been wary of, his response wasn’t to comfort me or to make sure I was okay. He said, “I told you so.” Like he was happier his point was proven than he was worried for my state of mind. What he didn’t know was that that relationship was abusive and that ex had raped me. That has stuck with me for years, and is a huge reason why I’m not emotionally vulnerable with that side of my family. : TW Not only is there a massive issue with how rape and assault are perceived, but there is a problem with how parents deal with these situations as well, especially when it is between a father and daughter. I’ve read up in this some, but the average American dynamic between fathers and daughters is often toxic, and contributes to the victimization of women down the line (I would go further in detail but this is a KZbin comment section). I’m so sorry you had to go through that with your dad. Hopefully, via education and spreading awareness, we can start changing minds, and help people understand how to be empathetic to others’ traumatic experiences. I hope you’re thriving 💚

[@TheHuxleyAgnostic]

The way the law, media, and public, handles murder, assault, theft, and rape, shows that rape isn't, at all, handled the same way. If you go into the police and say you were robbed, people will pretty much immediately accept that a crime has taken place. People won't ask whether you've given someone something, regret it, and want it back. People won't ask whether you appeared like you wanted to be robbed. People won't imply that it's your own fault for being in the wrong place. People won't bring up your history of giving things away freely, as if it's evidence you likely gave away this thing as well. Etc.

[@k.-flynn]

Maybe edit it to say "authorities" bc most police couldn't care less about the average person, so their response to rape is consistently just as shitty as their response to any crime.

[@ennuiii]

I love you bro, and alot of your points are solid. but man, aint no cops taking burglary seriously in my hood lmao. you'll be lucky if a mother f***** comes out and takes a report

[@xzraiderzx308]

@@ennuiii yea but that's a seperate thing. They still accept the claim that a crime took place even if they can't be bothered to actually do anything about it. It's not like rape where often the first thing that happens is the validity of the claim is doubted.

[@jbark678]

I wish I could save this comment.

[@urikostar7164]

Screenshot my dude

[@factahm9666]

Literally every argument this guy makes in regards to rape is evidence there should be consent classes

[@DeathProductions200]

Yeah. I love how they don't see that. My conservative and moderate family went to my brother's university orientation (or heard what he said about it) and were angry that they gave a brief explanation of consent and why its important. Why? Because the school KNOWS some idiots don't know the importance of consent. It took after my brother going to a party, why that introduction was important. Drunk people everywhere, he said there were women who obviously weren't wearing bras, and some who were in just their underwear. However, he is smart and avoided them, stayed next to his friends. But like, its super dumb that we have to have the classes. But I do understand the importance.

[@luna-p]

@@DeathProductions200 Can I ask, what was the point about not wearing bras about?

[@hnnnnnnnnnng]

@Beelzebub_6th still not their fault. The most "protected" one could conceivably be from rape is in a personal underground bunker in Alaska. But hey, I guess the women walking around, outside, in shorts, if full view of men, are at fault for putting themselves at "a higher risk" than bunker-chan.

[@camillefaith2005]

@Beelzebub_6th How do you "put yourself" in a situation where you are likely to be raped. Here's a crazy thought. Women should be allowed to get drunk and dance without a bra on without the threat of being raped.

[@zeeenno]

This guys JUST DISAGREED with Vaush saying a lot of people actually do not understand affirmative consent… then at 38:40 he claims that a lot of people don’t understand consent and two people may be “on different pages of consent”, meaning someone could rape someone thinking it was consentual, when earlier he said that all rapists know what they’re doing is rape. It’s as if he started with the conclusion that rape culture doesn’t exist and is bending everything to fit that.

[@juliet4093]

This is why MRAs are regarded as bad lmao

[@darrekworkman8685]

Prove that the definition consent and rape isn't changing like sand under people's feet. Who is defining it and redefining it?

[@darrekworkman8685]

@blueaxial Mary Kauss, Zarna Joshi, and there was one female who is suing a guy who saved her from drowning and claim he raped her for it.

[@zeeenno]

@@darrekworkman8685 What are you talking about? Are you talking about the changes to the legal definition of rape, which over the past few decades has changed to include the rape of men, marital rape, date rape, rape of an unconscious person, etc? Because I consider it and improvement to include those forms of rape under the legal definition of rape. Don’t you?

[@darrekworkman8685]

@@zeeenno I don't. The law is not meant to be ambiguous or used as a club against another citizen for revenge. Why haven't we similarly 'improved' the definition of pressing false charges? Why is it that so many things that often times boils down to misunderstandings considered the same as a deliberate act? If you think that even innocents men can learn something from being thrown in jail over a misunderstanding because he can 'learn something from it' than I present to you that you have far more to 'learn from' being thrown in jail. If it is justifiable in your mind that there is now innocence until proven guilty than you should be considered just as guilty as everyone else wouldn't you agree? I don't think I was talking the legal definition. In fact the examples I provided were not in any way legal definitions. It is just as much of a problem to have legal terms thrown around with no consideration of the legal meaning as a means of inciting mob violence against people. You really need to study history better if you think there is anything good about creating a hysteria in a large group of people. Salem witch trials, the original inquisition, wide spread lynching, the satanic panic, and countless other examples of how that 'improves' anything. No I don't think it's an 'improvement' to have a one sided ill thought out and quit frankly ignorant constant defining and redefining of terms that cause very immoral behavior in otherwise rational people. It's just a manipulative abusive form of social bullying that in no way 'improves' society for anyone, including the rather childish people engaging in it. Look at the examples I provided and then tell me that any of them are trying to 'improve' our understanding of rape as you claim they are. If you were serious about 'improving' anything you would be calling out the obvious overstepping of these examples, not trying to defend them.

[@torzimay]

"Maybe they don't report it because it's a false accusation" Then it's not a false accusation. "Maybe it's because she's ashamed or doesn't want her boyfriend to know" Those are literally reasons why a woman wouldn't report an ACTUAL case of rape.

[@Crackie]

Most idiotic reasons ever said though...

[@E3AloeLi]

I can’t report my case cuz my abuser and I were both 13! I asked my therapist at the time if I could have a case and she said she had another patient with a similar issue and neither of us could get a case.

[@katherinegallagher9081]

When they start talking "rape culture" this guy gets so defensive ( like he can't imagine guys doing this). It's like he's being personally attacked. Please, just because you aren't a " problem", doesn't mean a Problem doesn't Exist, or that you can't Acknowledge and support Victims. Additionally: this goes for female aggressors/ male victims as well( bothgenders can be predatory)

[@awesomepossum336]

Dude was also ready to easily assume malice on the part of feminists and women in general (false accusations are probably higher than the statistics imply, because he reads reddit), but finds the 1 in 4 statistic too high to be believable. So believing women would do bad things - super easy. Believing men would do them - eeeeh, only a small minority of sociopaths would do it.

[@randomnessiscool]

@@awesomepossum336 I don’t know if this is a cis guy thing or what but the disbelief of the 1 in 4 statistic just indicates to me that people don’t trust opening up to that person. You have no idea who in your friend group might be a survivor. Off the top of my head I can think of 12+ people in my circle of friends and family (including 3 men) who have been sexually assaulted.

[@depouille]

The among mu friend it seems woraw Like 3.8 out 4 have uh...stories. it's bad

[@e.j.d.rorchea6467]

@@randomnessiscool 1 in 4 statistics is a lie

[@randomnessiscool]

@@e.j.d.rorchea6467 Oh, well thank you unsourced KZbin anon. This changes everything.

[@David-oh_Davey]

I think this is what happens when someone's brain is steeped in hyperindividualism. A strong, dichotomous belief of 'good' and 'bad' people, and denial of structural and interactional factors intrinsic to environments. A highly simplistic perspective on reality imo. [Edit: And we know there is a strong, positive correlation as conservatism increases, so do individualistic beliefs. This might be part of why Vaesh mentioned examples of conservatives defending cases of rape or sexual assault.]

[@JoeMama-ml5zh]

Voosh's comments are an infinite source of r/iamverysmart. In fact Voosh himself is the God-King of r/iamverysmart.

[@A86]

​@Alexis Sanchez Acknowkedging that a power structure exists is simplistic and Manichean? That's like saying it's simplistic to acknowledge the existence of the prison-industrial complex or the prison-industrial complex. I get the strong suspicion that you don't know what Patriarchy means. It's an anthropological term, by the way.

[@LiamPorterFilms]

Revisit the heyday of the MRA movement with the new 100-minute documentary on Sargon, the MRMs, and GamerGate: YT search for "MRA Munted, Random"

[@randomnessiscool]

The Dennis example was perfect. He IS a narcissistic sociopath, and he STILL is confused and defensive when Mac points out that raping girls is bad and he goes on a rant about how it’s not rape, it’s just…she’s more likely to say yes. You know, because of the implications.

[@ManticTRIGGER]

What are you trying to say? punctuation would probably help not gonna lie.

[@ManticTRIGGER]

@Chemical Lemons oh ok that makes sense thank you

[@ennuiii]

@Chemical Lemons I liked it up until season 4 but the girl character & Dennis i think are wholesale unlikeable

[@ennuiii]

@Chemical LemonsI actually realize that as I was reading your comments lmao, I can definitely see why some people would like it I sadly am very susceptible to cringe haha

[@skidzzthewiz9226]

It’s because of the implication.

[@volksy7261]

You bring up legit men’s rights issues and he looks as if they have never occurred to him.

[@rianalee3138]

i don’t think they have 😂

[@BlueOniLink09]

"Do you have any evidence of what you're saying right now?" "Yes Vaush I have dozens of videos were I explain these points. I'm not gonna mention which videos, or what stats, or link anything, but trust me I've totally proved every point I've made somewhere on my channel."

[@VMonkies]

Lol yeah, that's this guy's MO. When he got obliterated by Sam Seder and company, he malded in the comments section, he used the same "I have video evidence!!1!" tactic, but when asked where it was, you had to search for it because the account he had posted it to ended up being banned. This guy's a joke.

[@sivervipa]

No wonder Sam hung up on this guy. He wasn't arguing in good faith.

[@chichogp]

"It is true because I said so"

[@yourneighborhoodfriendlyme4242]

Lmao. To be fair though, he said he links to all his sources in his video.

[@yourneighborhoodfriendlyme4242]

@@sivervipa I think he was arguing in good faith, insomuch that I believe he believes what he's saying.

[@sheonyx]

(paraphrasing) "the only person that's gonna commit rape in my opinion, or the vast majority of people that are going to commit rape, are sociopaths and narcissists. people that don't care about right and wrong, and hide their involvement" my ex didn't stop when i told him to mid-sex. he didn't understand why that was wrong, and assumed he could do that because we've been together for a year and a half. he told me one of his friends "got falsely accused of rape" in the first few months and i don't know how i didn't see that as a red flag then (probably because i was a naive teenager). we talked about feminism a lot and looking back he definitely seems like an MRA. i know for a fact he defends his boys if they get accused, and he would 100% benefit from consent classes if they were implemented here.

[@Coffeebean1985]

Yeah, that's unfortunate very common. This MRA guy is either just disingenuous or ignorant as hell. Probably a mix of both.

[@diegoseba12]

"Consent classes" sounds so dumb. Just call it sex ed lol

[@Hannahgs]

@@diegoseba12 nah even in places with comprehensive sex Ed consent is not taught well enough. Consent specific classes are definitely necessary

[@sheonyx]

@@diegoseba12 i went through sex ed in both elementary school and high school (junior year, which was a few months ago). they didn't teach us about consent, what counts as rape and what doesn't etc., they just assumed our parents would/we would have the common sense, which isn't always the case. i bet if i'd go around and ask around my class, most men couldn't tell me what does and what doesn't constitute as rape/sexual assault.

[@woden_arbosa]

@@sheonyx didnt teach isnt a refutation of including consent into sex ed. We know sex is suck. Making it better and including consent, instead of creating an entirely different animal.

[@merrybeans3029]

1 in 4 is a low estimate. I know very few women that were never sexually assaulted, and it happened multiple times to many of us. People don't always report. I didn't.

[@TheParentalRevolution]

I don't know 1 single man who has never had a woman threaten him with rape charges to end an argument. It has happened to me more than 3 times.

[@samuelmorkbednarzkepler]

@@TheParentalRevolution Wtf? I dont know a single guy who has ever had that happen to him. I know multiple women who have been assaulted though

[@thegoatelaborates9921]

@@TheParentalRevolution exactly what kind of arguments are you talking about?

[@lenn452]

@@TheParentalRevolution I'd love to see what type of people you are surrounded with lmao. I never even heard about "a friend's friend" getting threatened by rape charges in my circles irl. Lots of girls/women getting harassed tho

[@RemixedVoice]

Obviously this is all anecdotal, but I know multiple men who have been sexually assaulted; but never heard of/met any man who was falsely accused of sexual assault though

[@TheTimeBomb75]

Either this dude is dishonest and disingenuous or he lacks the self awareness to realize his method of consuming and presenting information is heavily filtered by his bias. Like, he doesn't believe in the validity of the data Vaush presented, but all the data he presents doesn't actually back up his claims or it's purely anecdotal

[@connorp3030]

He doesn't not believe the data Vaush is picking He just says there is a wide range of data and wants it all to be taken into account, not Vaush just picking an estimate he likes

[@TheTimeBomb75]

@@connorp3030 Reddit posts aren't data

[@connorp3030]

@@TheTimeBomb75 Mra: "This reddit post is indicative of some feeling that has to come from somewhere, why do you think people are feeling this way?" Vaush fans: "I don't believe in that shit" Vaush: "So you say mras aren't misogynistis but I scrolled r/mensrights and found a post of a man complaining about women, curious." Vaush fans: "Sooo trueee!"

[@TheTimeBomb75]

@@connorp3030 nice meme. you understand I didn't make that comment though, right?

[@connorp3030]

@@TheTimeBomb75 But you are criticising the dude for both pointing out that there's a range of data whilst ignoring, and you're criticising the dude for citing reddit threads whilst remaining silent when vaush behaves the same. Call that brain rot

[@hailleer]

As a university student who had to attend a consent class, I think everyone should have to attend one. People need to learn about enthusiastic mutual consent, how to know when you're being assaulted, and how to help prevent others from being assaulted. There isn't a good reason anyone shouldn't take a consent class

[@davos4667]

I have never heard of any such class at my university. Was it actually mandatory?

[@vafongoo]

Enthusiastic mutual consent is something most guys never get to experience, considering how picky women are. If the only valid consent is enthusiastic mutual consent, then expect the incel problem to jump to even greater heights

[@hailleer]

@@davos4667 Mine was mandatory for all the students who attended the first week base camp (I'm also Canadian, in case that helps explain the difference)

[@ifeeltiredsleepy]

@@vafongoo Lol wtf, that you view the world this way is pretty sad.

[@vafongoo]

@@ifeeltiredsleepy it's sad cause it's true

[@imconfusedoften]

I graduated in Ohio 1986, My high school taught girls that when they drink it is giving permission for sex. It was a warning don't drink or you will get pregnant and it will be your fault.

[@casperchristiansen2458]

That's fucked up. That was in a class?

[@prettyokandy230]

but that sounds kind of backwards? :O

[@thomaswikstrand8397]

@@prettyokandy230 it would - it was 35 years ago, in a fantastically backwards country.

[@accountnotfound4209]

@@thomaswikstrand8397 you will be surprised what teachers teach girls on how to avoid sexual harassment in India.

[@thomaswikstrand8397]

@@accountnotfound4209 unfortunately, I doubt I would be. After all, India voted for Modi twice, no?

[@davajita]

Vaush: "A lot of people don't understand consent, which is a big problem." Guy: "Well... I understand! I'm not a bad guy!" ... this proves nothing about the statistical reality of Vaush's comment, and on top of that, guy proceeds to demonstrate that he actually doesn't. Jesus.

[@harchierplebbington9397]

This guy PERFECTLY matches Ian Danskin’s psychological profile of a puritanical moral thinker (angry jack). When it reaches the rape culture discussion it becomes palpable and he starts dismissing rapists as cunning sociopaths plotting out an assault. Contextualising figures in history as lacking a lot of our modern moral principles is incredibly intuitive (particularly for conservatives) so the next step would be understanding that this could easily still be continuing today

[@Visitant69]

Most people left and right seem to think of rapists as cunning sociopaths. The left went through a period of starting to use the word rape to refer to a much wider range of assaults than was traditionally considered, however, they didn't create other spots in their mind for the types of rapists that would engage in the different forms of assault. From the least violent and invasive to the most horrific they all treat as the same sociopath. It would be nice to see some empathy for the men who got caught up by being taught some toxic things by the world and not having the ability to read another person well enough mixed in with poor communication from both sides.

[@aidanbagshaw3411]

@@arlaux1099 I think visitant is more pointing out the way that those who make mistakes and misread signals are treated as just as much of monsters as the “cunning sociopath.” In an effort to make more forms of sexual assault reprehensible in the public’s eyes, the left has essentially caused all of them to be seen as equally heinous. This isn’t to say that we should be sympathetic to people just because they didn’t fully understand that what they were doing was wrong, but we should be able to recognize that a guy who pushes it too far and makes a partner uncomfortable isn’t a rapist. Calling someone like that a rapist only serves to devalue and desensitize the word in the minds of those who hear it. Instead of bringing all forms of sexual assault up to the same level as rape, all the left did was bring rape down to the level of sexual assault

[@Visitant69]

​@@arlaux1099 You saying no one is saying it is equivalent to me saying everyone on the left says it. Which I'm not by the way. I'm saying that a significant enough portion of them do that it poisons the discourse. Secondly, there does not a exist a human being on this planet that you shouldn't feel sympathy for. Everyone out there is just you trapped in another dimension. If you had been raised in the exact circumstances of a rapist you would be a rapist. Have sympathy for rapists, murderers, thieves and all other troubled peoples. Both the left and the right have an issue with their smooth brained majority wanting blood instead of a better world. Nobody is perfect and the universe could easily put you in a situation where you would do something terrible that the people you call friends would want your head for. I'm not saying we ignore peoples crimes or that we don't hold them accountable. We can put someone in jail and still feel for the situation they are in and what led them there and we should feel that way. We need to be mindful to cultivate a culture of people who want to help troubled people no matter what they did and not give in to the hatred we criticise fascists for. This includes spewing toxic stuff on the internet. Which this chat section and vaushes stream chat is just projectile vomiting almost every second. The left is barely better than the right when it comes to the general population actually understanding what the philosophers of their movement are trying to say. We love to talk about rehabilitation but we don't practice it. You're not contributing to someones rehabilitation by screaming at them and trying to cost them their job when what they "did" hasn't even gone through the legal process yet.

[@mechanomics2649]

@@arlaux1099 Though I don't agree with most of what the person said, I do want to push back a little bit on that last part as it's a sentiment that I've seen frequently. Sympathy and empathy aren't zero-sum games. You can have sympathy/empathy for someone that perpetrates wrong doing while also having sympathy/empathy for their victims, and it doesn't necessitate equal parts sympathy/empathy either. Additionally, you can have sympathy/empathy for a person while still condemning their conduct. I'm of the opinion that sympathy/empathy are vital to rehabilitation. Not only can it help to better understand people, which contributes to more effectively rehabilitating or otherwise aiding both perpetrators and victims, but it also discourages "othering". Most importantly, it aids in taking preventative measures against wrong doings. Feeling a sense of sympathy or empathy toward a person doesn't mean absolving or condoning wrong doing.

[@aaronk463]

@@aidanbagshaw3411 misread signals? That’s what people say to excuse sexual assault. If a person doesn’t express direct interest in a romantic interaction, then you should ask if they’re interested before you engage in any romantic interaction. It’s called consent.

[@bberti]

Honestly I wish Vaush had gotten a little more rough with this guy, his arguments are really bad, to the point where I do question his sincerity. If anyone did see Sam, Emma, Nomi, take his call, they would have seen the same bad arguments and the way they pushed back would make more sense

[@Superbajt]

He's bad, but in Majority report they were even worse to him, and he was a victim. It's easy to disprove many MRA's points, but they weren't doing it, they were talking over him and making fun of him. They also disregarded some fair points MRAs have.

[@Avrysatos]

He's sincere. Just bad at figuring out what data and sources are credible. This is what we get for having a poor education system.

[@Spyno41]

He seems like he's genuine, but misguided.

[@steve94183]

Him bringing up the Red Pill Documentary at the end was a huge red flag on top of everything else.

[@devon345]

Sam, Emma, and Nomi were also taking his call RIGHT AFTER a segment on Dore bragging about committing sexual harassment so it was also really bad timing for him to start with some of his talking points. His conversation with Sam might have gone a bit better if he had arranged with the MR crew to call back in another time. And the things Vaush started to lose patience with him on around the 1hr mark are the same things Sam, Emma and Nomi lost patience with almost from the start.

[@alexanderkorte-stapff6824]

This guys entire rhetoric relies on his own assertions: "a lot of men are afraid of false rape accusation, and I work every day to make men scared of them". It's all circular.

[@greywolf7577]

That's like saying "a lot of woman are afraid of being rape and I work every day to make women afraid of rape". Do you think that's circular as well?

[@enriquesanchez9016]

@@greywolf7577 Except that's not the same situation and you know it. Statistics shows us that sexual assault against women is way more prevalent that false rape accusations against men.

[@s.f.2632]

@@greywolf7577 can you elaborate?

[@itty2270]

@@greywolf7577 Men are 230 more times likely to be raped than falsely accused.

[@alterego6075]

'Member the time Dan Crenshaw absolutely smeared a woman into the ground for reporting sexual assault while enlisted?....I 'member.

[@corydk4834]

Sad part is, when SNL made a joke about him, he demanded they apologize.

[@PeterXChhanX]

Nailed his ass on his subreddit where the “don’t open up to women” 9k upvote and he tried defending it lol. Only a misogynist defends it the way he did lmfao

[@moesydocious]

Dude says rape is less common than you think but his argument for why false accusations are higher than reported is "men are aware of them" Sorry to inform him women are very aware they might be assaulted! Wtf Jesus

[@LiamPorterFilms]

Revisit the heyday of the MRA movement with the new 100-minute documentary on Sargon, the MRMs, and GamerGate: YT search for "MRA Munted, Random"

[@xx_luigi_xx7223]

I saw the "Sorry to inform him women are very aware they might be assaulted" argument before and I just want to say that it kind falls flat because it just goes back and forth. Feminists use that argument, which scares guys into thinking that everything they do will scare a girl, which leads to MRAs, which just repeats forever. I personally think that its a bad argument simply because it's just playing devil's advocate, which doesn't really help.

[@itty2270]

@@xx_luigi_xx7223 What are they doing to scare a girl? Men are 230 more likely to be raped than falsely accused, yet y'all don't trauma bond over being terrified of walking alone at night. Why are you so selectively focused on one thing that is *so* easily avoided?

[@rare3014]

you just cant take a guy seriously who attempts to uses reddit posts he sees and his personal perception of his friends to engage in an intellectual conversation.

[@FruitBasketyay]

This is his problem in a nutshell. Well said

[@WhoBlah21]

I shit you not, I went on the MRA subreddit. I asked questions and made reasonable good faith comments, and you know I got? -Two MRAs told me that feminists wants to legalize r*pe -MRAs telling me how evil feminists were -How military conscription aka "the draft" was not a job The intellectual discourse from that subreddit, is amazing...

[@FruitBasketyay]

@@thotslayer9914 why ?

[@FruitBasketyay]

@@thotslayer9914 about?

[@joshhart3801]

@@WhoBlah21 Not wrong entirely though. Feminists in the middle east and India did block equal rape laws.

[@RapidBlindfolds]

51:55 Vaush is spot on. My friend once called me up saying he had the worst day of his life: he been falsely accused of sexual assault and harassment and had to spend a night in a cell. I immediately took his side, wanting to put his mind at ease. But after about 2 months of mulling over his account of things, and his own behaviour to me, which did fit the legal purview of assault and harassment, I realised he probably did do these things.

[@Joannapomeroy]

Thank you Vaush for educating him on what rape culture is. He said the vast majority of rapists are sociopaths. That's just not true. Most rapists have a normal capacity for empathy; they just either think they are entitled to someone else's body or they don't understand consent. Or both.

[@clairebear9236]

the purpose of teaching consent isn’t to teach people not to rape. it’s to teach people how to know when they are being assaulted

[@maxwellsdemon6599]

Is it? Like I get that's that's a part of it, but isn't it as important to establish that it's okay to hear a "no" and ask for an explicit "yes", than to know that you can say "no"? It seems to me self evident, that we should do both...

[@pickyphysicsstudent201]

If you need to be taught that you are being assaulted, chances are that you weren't.

[@ps1hagrid786]

@@pickyphysicsstudent201 That is such an idiotic take...Education enlightens. People genuinely sometimes cannot tell whether they are being violated or not. Whether it's ignorance or an internalised issue; it still very much occurs. Many victims of molestation are known to question themselves. Trauma, in many cases, is suppressed by the mind. The other issue is possibly being in denial of being victimised. These aren't outlandish statements. Human psychology is complicated. Your stance, however, solely relies on the person being wrong. That's naive.

[@whatisthis1958]

@@pickyphysicsstudent201 Ok then. I was s/xually abused as a 6 yr old and didn't know it was s/xual abuse until I was 14. I guess those years of trauma are now invalid because I didn't know or/l counted as abuse, and that emotional coersion, threats and manipulation is a form of abuse until I was taught it in my schools PSHE programme. F/ck me, ig. A lot of people don't know what constitutes as abuse until they are taught it, or hear someone else talking about it. There are so many different types of s/xual abuse that are much less black and white. In my case, I always experienced heavy discomfort around s/xual themes, I was completely paused in terms of s/xual development, I had poor mental health and I didn't know why until the realisation struck me that what happened to me was abuse. That's why this sh*t has to be taught Censored cos youtube bad

[@rianalee3138]

@@pickyphysicsstudent201 so kids are supposed to know they’re being assaulted before they’re even taught sex exists?

[@kimmorse9088]

Dude like really, really, really wants to make all his problems feminism's fault.

[@ridjenite]

Of course he does. He needs to blame someone for the problems he faces.

[@connorp3030]

It sounds like he just wants equal pension ages, split custody bill, support for male victims of domestic and sexual violence etc

[@mycenaeangal9312]

@@connorp3030 I'd argue that he's maybe one of the better mra's I've seen in that he actually does have those policy positions and most don't have any. But like the bar is on the floor there. There's a lot of reactionary rhetoric and ideas that he's picked up. He shouldn't be defined by his opposition to feminism and in a lot of areas he is. Cherry picked anecdotes. He's fallen for a lot of propaganda sadly. It's sad because he's close to being an actually respectable MRA but he still misses the mark. I don't think I've seen one... I do wanna commend him for his resistance to radicalization despite the environment he continuously immerses himself in though. That's really hard to do and I think I was less resilient. Edit: I finished the video and I'd just like to add that I reallllllllyyyyyyy think he's an idiot.

[@LiamPorterFilms]

Revisit the heyday of the MRA movement with the new 100-minute documentary on Sargon, the MRMs, and GamerGate: YT search for "MRA Munted, Random"

[@hnnnnnnnnnng]

@Beelzebub_6th patriarchy is an institution that has greatly shaped our society according to man's image. Yes, I will blame the patriarchy

[@TheMArtagnan]

“Everyone knows what rape is” “What of a guy doesn’t know he’s being intimidating “

[@hannahmander7607]

Oof, like I can understand to some extent this guy's concerns (sorry, I missed his name, no disrespect intended), but the whole idea of rapists being primarily sociopaths, narcissists, etc was a huge no-no. Not only is that perpetuating rape culture, as Vaush explained, but it's also contributing to the stigma against people with mental health conditions, saying that people with psychiatric disorders are more likely to act out violently than the average person. Not saying people with mental disorders never act violently, but statistically speaking, that same group of people is ~10x more likely to be the victim of violence than anything. And that's not even to mention the lack of accountability that argument creates. I know this is a debate about feminism/MRAs, but if the goal is to try and move towards an egalitarian society, we can't be throwing other people under the bus to get there

[@emiiii]

Agreed 👍

[@greensquare6235]

It really sounds like you just want to either defend rapists or you want to keep expanding the definition of rape to acts that are not motivated by a disregard for human feelings. You're not the only one doing this in the comments here and I'm seriously lost. What point are you trying to make?

[@hannahmander7607]

@@greensquare6235 I can assure you I am not defending rapists in any shape, way, or form. The day I defend a rapist is the day I lose pretty much all of my virtues. I can also assure you I'm not trying to expand the definition of rape to try and account for certain people. The point I and others are trying to make is that a person does not have to be a narcissist, a sociopath, etc in order to rape someone, or to commit a violent crime against another for that matter. Really, it's a defense of mental health awareness more than anything. Assigning such diagnosis labels flippantly to people who rape is a dismissal of all accountability on the rapist's part, but even more, it is harmful to people with those diagnoses. It perpetuates the stigma that mentally disordered people are inherently violent, which is demonstrably false. We are not defending rapists; rather, we are defending people with mental health disorders. If any part of my comment suggests otherwise, I do sincerely apologize and would appreciate that being pointed out so I can go and reword things better. If I have failed to clarify things here, I'm more than happy to try again. But basically, we are just trying to bring mental health advocacy to the conversation to compensate for where it was lost in the debate.

[@greensquare6235]

@@hannahmander7607 Like most people here the way you talk about sociopathy just makes me think you got your understanding of it from movies and tv shows. This is the problem I see. This guy is correct and you all disagree because you don't understand what sociopathy is.

[@hannahmander7607]

@@greensquare6235 Well I certainly hope I understand what sociopathy is, given that I'm specifically in school to go into mental and behavioral health, but that's beside the point. It is true that of all psychiatric diagnoses, antisocial personality disorder (the true technical term for sociopathy) is probably the one with the highest indication of proclivity toward violent behavior, or at the the very least, behavior with disregard to acceptability. I will also not make excuses for someone's misbehavior, especially behavior as awful as rape, regardless of psychiatric diagnosis or not. No matter what, a person should be held accountable for their actions. However, the bigger point I'm getting at is that not all rapists are sociopaths, nor are all sociopaths rapists. Yes, someone who is a sociopath has the ability to be a rapist, but the same is true for arguably everyone else. They have a much higher likelihood of acting criminally, immorally, etc, but it is far too broad of a generalizations to equate most/all rapists to sociopaths. Even still, if you disagree, I find the more constructive response to be to work towards helping people who suffer from a disorder such as antisocial personality disorder in order to reduce the likelihood of violent and/or criminal behavior. Of course, if someone does something such as rape another, then absolutely, they should be punished and held accountable. But even with proper punishment, it's only putting a bandage on a gaping wound that runs much deeper. We must work to address the root of the problem and help try and treat and rehabilitate the person to the fullest extent possible. All in all, I just find it doesn't help any aspect of rape culture or stigma against mental health or anything, really, to chalk up all rape to sociopathy and do nothing more. We have to go beyond ascribing labels carelessly and actually work to address the problems at hand.

[@budakiarcher]

This guy is just like "Statistics are wrong, we have to go by my anecdotal evidence on EVERYTHING."

[@demodiums7216]

statistics support most of what mens rights activists talk about

[@budakiarcher]

@@demodiums7216 You think he would have cited some of them, then

[@thomaswikstrand8397]

@@budakiarcher would you, please?

[@soacker25]

There are plenty that proof his points. Google them!

[@budakiarcher]

@@soacker25 There is plenty that refutes what he says and proves what Vaush says. Google them!

[@benh2339]

This guy came of as reasonable and distanced himself from the crazy mgtow and redpill crowd but fuck he still has a terrifying worldview with an incredible amount of biases he himself seems completely unaware of. This is what happens when you have a gut reaction to feeling attacked and then attempt to validate it after the fact in an attempt to seem reasonable. edit: oof the more into the discussion he gets the more mask off and weaselly he gets... edit 2: fuck he really just thinks some people are evil and there's no societal explanation for things...

[@zacnieprawisz9171]

he is not reasonable at all - he constantly lies and makes shit up, have you watched the video till the end? just because someone is not screaming and has a British accent doesn't mean they are reasonable edit: sorry, I have written it before reading your own edits 😅

[@LiamPorterFilms]

Revisit the heyday of the MRA movement with the new 100-minute documentary on Sargon, the MRMs, and GamerGate: YT search for "MRA Munted, Random"

[@8Rincewind]

54:30 when the dude describes rapists as fundamentally immoral monsters, I'm reminded of "the banality of evil" discussing the trial Adolf Eichmann one of the orchestrators of the Holocaust. There was no trace of mental illness or insanity in Eichmann, he was maybe a little dumb and lacked imagination, but he was an entirely ordinary man. Not just that but he was obeying orders and following the law. People who do bad things are not monsters. Nobody thinks that they're evil or wrong, the same goes for rapists.

[@ven9287]

That book is actually pretty outdated and not an amazing source

[@Coffeebean1985]

True

[@Coffeebean1985]

@@ven9287 the gist of it still holds true, tho

[@crustallos3023]

Yeah, because phycology was in a much more primitive state in 1945/1946, a lot of traits we could now call divergent traits were not recognizable. The fact of the matter is evil is far less banal than we could've imagined back then and monstrous people can now be analysed for divergent traits that we couldn't test for back then because of the limitations of the time.

[@ven9287]

@@Coffeebean1985 not really, at all

[@ianperry8557]

As someone who has had said consent classes at Uni it’s actually really good to get that you get to see a lot of the smaller cases and even stuff you never thought of not only for men but stuff women do too. These are good classes

[@TheCalkan]

Every single argument this guy makes boils down to "well I don't believe the data I believe these anecdotal facts from my men's rights subreddit is entirely representative of the whole"

[@idabahillo2199]

First 5 mins, me: "Maybe this guy isn't so crazy and Sam may have jumped the gun." Me the rest of convo: 🤦‍♀️

[@SumNutOnU2b]

Exactly that! First five minutes I'm thinking "Vaush is actually coming off badly here". Then they start talking about rape and he just shoots himself in the foot with "there's no such thing as rape culture" and "nobody ever commits rape without knowing it's wrong". And from that point on it just keeps getting worse.

[@Coffeebean1985]

True

[@DoctorJellicle]

I had the same reaction lol. Vaush calling him on the fear mongering kind of slipped the mask off

[@volksy7261]

Every. Single. Time.

[@whatausernamethisis8893]

Ironically, his beliefs are more tame than some MRAs I've encountered.

[@jamesdetwiler3894]

If all my friends are being " falsely" accused of rape I might need to take a deep look at myself or get better friends

[@heathercameron1485]

Yeah, they're all "falsely" accused because rapists are all immoral monsters and my friends are not monsters! I was also there! I was there every single second during the event! I even went to the bathroom with them so they didn't get falsely accused!

[@greensquare6235]

I mean he literally said they had an alibi but you ignore that. Why are you people so reactionary?

[@jamesdetwiler3894]

@@greensquare6235 oh I'm sorry you must be one of the falsely accused.

[@greensquare6235]

@@jamesdetwiler3894 I find it bizarre people are so obsessed with signalling their virtue that they deny reality. How the hell do you think this makes you look good?

[@jamesdetwiler3894]

@@greensquare6235 I'm not signaling anything. If I'm hanging out with people that are constantly being accused of anything I'm going to need to reassess what I know of these people. And if you believe he did everything with his friends and never left their side, well get help crossing the street, you seem too special to do it alone.

[@ninskdesign]

If I remember correctly, his timing calling into the Majority Report was why the reception was hostile… he called after they were discussing the Dore/Kasparian situation. Emma and Nomi were discussing the flood of misogyny they face online from the audiences of some of the people they criticize about a policy position. It was clear, they were hesitant in the Dore discussion bc they knew they’d have to deal with the wrath and they were appealing to men on the left to do what they could to push back bc the people who attack aren’t going to respond to a woman. He called in after they were heated so it wasn’t a neutral starting point for an argument. If it was a coincidence, that’s unfortunate… but if he was inspired to call in because of that discussion he was bringing up MRA in bad faith and as a defense for misogyny.

[@greensquare6235]

Nomiki is notoriously anti men. Watch her fem Fridays show. She had some bad experiences in relationships and now literally wants to do forced vasectomies on men. She's fucking insane.

[@connorp3030]

I know the dude, he's always trying to get an opportunity to talk about mens issues, so it's coincidental

[@mycenaeangal9312]

@@greensquare6235 I have trouble believing that. Both because I know people who are legitimately anti-men and they wouldn't think that was acceptable and because that's a common shock meme that isn't meant to be taken seriously. In general comparing one ridiculous prescription to another isn't super effective cause the other side invariably misinterprets it out of malice or stupidity.

[@Israel-nb7ip]

I heard his call too and I agree with you that his timing was horrible...but, in fairness to Nomiki, Emma and Sam, the conversation would've ended in the same exact way based on what I just saw him argue here with Vaush. Part of the issue here too is that, when you sit through enough of these discussions, you can see their arguments coming a mile away. This guy was nicer about it and I do believe that he was (at least in his own mind) trying to have a good faith discussion....but it's hard to have a good faith discussion with someone who basically refuses to believe in/understand what is rape culture or that openly questions data from a wholly emotional position. It's either a willful or subconscious blind spot but either way it's infuriating for me to sit through as a man so I can only imagine what's going on in Emma or Nomiki's heads, much less Sam who has a daughter.

[@Israel-nb7ip]

@@greensquare6235 yeah, Nomiki can be a bit reactionary when it comes to gender issues. I won't go as far as saying some man or men did something to her in her personal life because all you have to do is open a history book or simply read current global events on women's rights issues to understand why she could be driven to be emotional. I know what it feels like to be accused of being an "angry black man" simply because I'm outraged by things we all just take for granted in relation to the history, legacy and current conditions of racial/white supremacy in this country and basically everywhere in the western hemisphere.

[@alicedeligny9240]

Most men who get divorced aren't young men, they're in their 40s, so it wasn't much use for that guy to say how unemployed young men are. Older men are usually wealthier than women of the same age. And overhall, men have more wealth than women.

[@nelsonth]

Also, historically, divorced men were more likely to remarry than divorced women, though the gap has reduced a bit now, in the US.

[@TheRiddam]

His point is how the argument has to change when addressing current and future generation, where the wealth gap doesnt exist and is starting to favor women.

[@greywolf7577]

But it is easier for women to marry someone who makes more money, where as it is much harder for men to do so. So a woman can greatly increase here income through marriage while a man can't. So it evens out.

[@xx_luigi_xx7223]

But that isn't really men's fault. What I don't understand is why feminists are saying all these bad things about modern men, when men that are already dead created the system? I don't think that the system shouldn't change, just don't blame us when we didn't do anything.

[@alicedeligny9240]

@@xx_luigi_xx7223 That's not the fault of the men of today and this wasn't implied.

[@AlexRoseLebreton]

My friend has a really verbally abusive boyfriend. And he doesn’t see his Boyfriend as abusive. He makes a lot of “jokes” about leaving him and taking his money. We live in Canada. He could technically steal my friends money if he wanted to because they’re technically common law married. Thing is he doesn’t see it coming but I do.

[@seanothepop4638]

He absolutely will do that. He might not know he will, or think he will, but he's absolutely red flagging. Your friend's stupid, undue respect.

[@jesspavlichenko5745]

When people tell you who they are, listen to them

[@AlexRoseLebreton]

@@jesspavlichenko5745 also said friends boyfriend told me to “fetch my wallet” when I said no he got visibly angry and said “fine”

[@dogeatdog6157]

But we all know which group is most likely to be verbally abusive

[@wynngwynn]

@@dogeatdog6157 guess which ones are more physically abusive.

[@invaderhydre]

Holy shit, Vaush was about to describe how rape culture affects men and this guy did all he can to cover it before Vaush could finish his point.

[@plutoyoon]

you know, i’d much rather accidentally defend a liar than accidentally defend a rapist.

[@Lectical]

I hope this helps Vaush get onto the majority report

[@aino1010]

How would this help

[@stoneman472]

I would love to see Sam and Vaush have an in depth policy discussion.

[@jason666king]

Anyone can call in

[@NFort231]

@@jason666king yes but its not like they let everyone on. They are screened

[@anthonycastelucci6200]

Imagien

[@volksy7261]

He says “all rapists know” when he also says a guy can’t recognise a scared woman who is saying yes out of fear and he still goes there?

[@greensquare6235]

If you understood intent you wouldn't be so confused.

[@volksy7261]

@@greensquare6235 I'm not remotely confused about any of this.

[@greensquare6235]

@@volksy7261 You expressed confusion and now you're just expressing your weak ego. What is it about intent that you don't understand?

[@volksy7261]

@@greensquare6235 My understanding of “intent” is more than satisfactory.

[@greensquare6235]

@@volksy7261 Then your assumption about the exclusivity of the two concepts in your original comment is caused by what? What did I miss?

[@darkwingduck1267]

Oof, this guy really proved that rape culture exists when he was trying to disprove its existence. 💀 I did my masters in SA, so I know that it exists, I realized that I had been on both ends of it, and I also know that a lot of men are willing to learn about it if they’re given a non-judgmental opportunity to do so. Consent classes are a great way to do that! It would also definitely address that whole “I’m too afraid of interacting with women now” thing too. Just saying.

[@lordflufffluff]

I swear almost every girl I talked had been traumatized by a dude that couldn't take rejection. It's hard for these girls to befriend guys because they are worried about their safety, and I think it's understandable. I really do hope schools do better job of teaching consent in the future. This is just so sad.

[@darkwingduck1267]

@@lordflufffluff Oh definitely, men and women don’t face equal stakes in these interactions. Women face violence, men face rejection/ humiliation. And I’ve had several men state that rejection is the worst pain possible, that they would prefer losing a limb, that women couldn’t possibly understand the pain because women never face rejection which, uh, sure. One man told me that getting physically violent with a woman would still only force her to feel the smallest slither of the pain she had imparted on him. When I asked him whether assaulting her s*xu*lly would be him forcing her to feel his humiliation he just looked like he’d had a very uncomfortable epiphany. This was at an academic conference mind you, not during a prison interview. I threw up after that conversation 😅 It definitely hit too close to home.

[@marksadplier9451]

I grew up in Canada, and it was VERY normalized to let your bf do “his thing” so he can leave you alone later. It was also laughed at the scenario of women never being in the mood to have intercourses, for men to beg for it, etc. I grew up thinking it was normal. So when i had my first bf; i had no knowledge that not wanting or not feeling like doing the dirty, was not consent. I would let him do EVERYTHING he wanted, i would force myself. He would gaslight me, saying it been 3 days, that i never did the first step to have a intercourse, and if i really said no and stayed on my no, he would just go on his pc and ignore me for the rest of the day. Each time i said no, he would ask why and convince me. When i tried to kms, he broke up saying I made him unhappy and depressed. It took me several months to understand that i was manipulated, convinced and rape for a year by my partner. Every day i feel dirty and guilty to have let myself go through this. It took a lot of time for my mother to understand too. Even tho i said yes, the no i gave 3 minutes before is not consent. Im disgusted by my private parts and wanted for a long time to cut them off, burn them off, ripe them off my body. So yes, there is a rape culture. Rape is normalized as a funny thing women let men do and when they say no. I hate him. I hate you Étienne to have done this to me. But i hate myself more. Rape culture exist, that you agree or not or really try to convince yourself it doesnt. It does and it happens to every women.

[@NoOne-hg1qc]

I knew someone who only said yes because she and her partner were having a terrible (unrelated) argument (which led to asking for sex) in the middle of the night and she wanted it to stop, and she was sobbing and wailing during a very painful sex act, and the guy literally still didn't see it as rape because she had said yes and because 'he wouldn't have done it if she hadn't' People are stupid af sometimes

[@emofascist]

Thats fucking psychotic. He knew damn well what he was doing. You shouldnt downplay that kind of behavior. Are you serious? That goes well beyond stupid af

[@BringerOfBloood]

I think Vaush kinda nails it with the men's right movement being too reactionary and I think actually the left itself has a similar issue, where too much time is spent reacting to other stuff (the MRM to the misdoings of some feminists and the left reacting either to the right or to liberals). Instead for effective advocacy, we need to push more our own issues and push on topics where majority consensus can be reached.

[@2FadeMusic]

true!

[@latinajoseph]

Keleseth… I will never forget how much that ruined the HS meta lol

[@BringerOfBloood]

@@latinajoseph yeah my nickname is bit old now, but glad some people still get the reference :D

[@Blueorange22]

Here's a question though- if feminists address men's issues too, where are the feminists are high pension ages? Conscription? Male victims of domestic violence? The Men's Right's movement exists to address these issues because feminists do not.

[@horrorhistory7342]

But we do address it though, conscription laws can only change if they get changed through Congress, which seem to be against that. Of course we’ll keep talking about it, but the issue is that there are so many different problems to address.

[@dccrashergames6553]

I gotta say, I love the new "loading screen" snippet.

[@TheMarcQ]

And I hate it. Another 10seconds I have to skip.

[@jackmak2980]

Gotta copy more from his best friend Destiny

[@aX0n777]

I hate it, it's so pointless, just start with the normal intro, it's short, unique and actually pretty well animated, YTers who do the "teaser intro" always make me less interested in watching the video

[@d-extra5814]

@@jackmak2980 LMAO yep

[@Lectical]

@@jackmak2980 as if vaush is the one editing the video?? This is some dumb shit lol it’s just a strat a ton of youtubers use to give people a taste of the juiciest part so they watch the rest, calm down

[@mariajosetorresp]

“One in four sounds a little high” MADE MY BLOOD BOIL. I dont know a single woman who hasnt been sexually assaulted. I literally could not count the amount of times i have been sexually assaulted in my life. I get most men cant relate to that, but if you dont know just dont comment ffs

[@androphile]

I don't know a single man that hasn't been sexually assaulted either.

[@mariajosetorresp]

@@androphile im very sorry to hear that, im also sorry you have to bring it up only to devalue my comment instead than to discuss the importance of shedding light on this serious issue

[@x-man9473]

@@mariajosetorresp Your blood shouldn't be boiling from small words. Especially when they weren't provocative or an insult.

[@connorp3030]

@@mariajosetorresp The issue is equally big for men and women i.e, in the yearly rates for sexual violence in the CDC's National intimate Sexual Violence Survey (largest and most comprehensive sexual violence survey in the world) men report being forced to penetrate women and women report being forcibly penetrated by men at equal rates I'm sorry you have such a huge blindspot for including male victims of sexual violence and someone adding onto your comment to include them is so "devaluing" for you

[@mariajosetorresp]

@@connorp3030 do you equate sexual assault only to penetration? Because that might be the comprehension issue for you here

[@Z-O-D-I-Y-A-K]

Him: I don’t like porn.. Vaush: Oh? Do you have a moral objection? Him: No.... Too many women.

[@BlackLivesMatter23]

These mras like men a whole lot, but will swear up and down that they ain't gay. Curious.

[@PR--un4ub]

@@BlackLivesMatter23 What's manlier than having sex with a man?

[@greenbackjack768]

@@PR--un4ub having sex with more than one man. Real alpha shit right there

[@54tisfaction]

Him being an "honest actor" almost makes it worse, because then it is just stupidity and inability to grasp how you determine how things are. He goes from confirmation bias to confirmation bias in how he interpret events and policies.

[@silkbombmusic]

Him being An “honest actor” makes it realistic IMO . You will hear plenty of American men who share similar opinions, because they do not look into the discussions that challenge their worldview.

[@edmaldonado8207]

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that he's a Redditor since that site, more than any other social media site that I've seen in my experience (admittedly) is just a breeding ground for confirmation bias.

[@zacnieprawisz9171]

he is an honest actor in authentically hating women

[@luna-p]

... he's just lying, he knows he's wrong...

[@edmaldonado8207]

@@luna-p Hanlons razor: Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.

[@RJCain]

But wait, if rape culture doesn't exists, and Brock Turner did a bad and he knew he was doing a bad, why was he defended so much?

[@greensquare6235]

Where do you see him defended honestly? I've never seen it. Anywhere.

[@shrisiva4016]

@@greensquare6235 Same not seen one person ever defend him

[@ifeeltiredsleepy]

@@shrisiva4016 Over 39 people submitted character witnesses in support of him during his trial. And also several prominent connections of his family defended him publically until the Buzz feed leak of the witness statement made the case viral.

[@FrenkieWest32]

@@ifeeltiredsleepy being a character witness is not a judgement on whether his action was good or bad.

[@ifeeltiredsleepy]

@@FrenkieWest32 Um, the point of the defense calling character witnesses is to testify that the person is a good person who either: wouldn't commit the crime, or that the crime doesn't reflect them. Either way this is defending the person and suggests the witnesses did not view the crime as serious.

[@Superbajt]

Well, technically... Murder and theft are also complicated, and in some situations two people can disagree if a crime was done or not. If I shoot someone in self-defense, is it a crime? If I steal to eat, is it a crime? Specific circumstances matter a lot, but even when all facts are known you can still disagree about criminality and morality of actions.

[@dolphinoegglet7263]

[paraphrasing] 'all we have to do is wait another four or five months before another major case' Meanwhile: *Bill Cosby is released early from prison on a technicality*

[@annajoy3323]

It wasn’t a technicality. The prosecutors just fucked up. However, your point still stands. The prosecutor gave him immunity in his first case, but then more women came forward.

[@heddelinpralin1481]

“Quite a few people who get raped stay quiet about it” “✨😌 No 😌✨”

[@adenmiller1302]

Well they do, but not because they want to be quiet. Almost always because of power dynamics or fear of not being believed. He was right but he missed the point entirely

[@heddelinpralin1481]

@@adenmiller1302 i’mmm not 100% sure if you misunderstood me or not? I was making fun of blueorange22 because he only acknowledges 1. Reddit sob stories 2. Data that doesn’t hurt his feelings

[@adenmiller1302]

@@heddelinpralin1481 oh I see the joke now on the comment. The "no" is him denying something because it doesn't fit his world view. I thought that was you saying no. My bad.

[@heddelinpralin1481]

@@adenmiller1302 no worries at all 🌻🌻

[@pickyphysicsstudent201]

It seems like everyday, some new story comes out about some woman claiming some celebraity raped her 10+ years ago. Even if I am to believe that every single accustion is true, that means that for quite some time, said woman stayed quite. She could've been struck by a flying icecream truck the day prior to her announcement and nobody would've ever heard her story.

[@tristinmckinstry6467]

I hope men's rights aren't under threat, I don't like writing left handed.

[@2FadeMusic]

us lefties are the master race

[@diallo1347]

Okay, I tried to give the MRA a chance, but when you start making excuses or attacking people who want to end the very real rape culture that exist, I can't take you seriously anymore. Also, his main source seems to be Reddit, lol.

[@micotellsart]

@Cornelia Bc many parts of modern feminism are sustained in fallacies that hurts men.

[@cass7448]

@@micotellsart What parts?

[@voxomnes9537]

@@micotellsart Wot?

[@shrisiva4016]

@@cass7448 Duluth model not recognizing that men can be victims of domestic violence, feminist Mary Koss and the National Organization for women defining rape as "forced penetration" excluding male victims with female perpetrators, Koss herself doesn't think a man can be raped by a woman.

[@diallo1347]

@@micotellsart Get off reddit and talk to actual feminist.

[@hermithouse]

This guy: Actually you are wrong because I have an anecdote nobody can verify that proves I’m right and any argument, logic or data that says otherwise is wrong. Also, his commentary on the “gender awareness training for police” bill is extremely dishonest and a flat out lie. Prior to the bill, police would be expected to be neutral when visiting houses where domestic abuse has taken place. Women are overwhelmingly the victims of domestic violence, but the police showing up at a call and turning it into a he-said-she-said “both sides” issue means they will ignore or downplay cases where women are abused because the word of the abused is being treated as equally valid as the voice of the victim and means police are making assumptions that don’t align with the factual reality. So when he says training police to take factual reality into account when dealing with these cases = training police to ignore facts and assume women are always innocent 100% of the time is not just a lie, but a deliberate attempt to maintain bills that actually do NOW the very thing he claims is a problem if it happens to men.

[@connorp3030]

To be clear, men are between 33% and47% of victims, and suffer 33% of the injuries and deaths And also to be clear, with this bill, in conjunction with "primary aggressor" policies, if the police turn up to a domestic dispute where a man and a woman are unharmed, the man will be assumed the aggressor and arrested (vaush said this himself), meaninig a third of the time, a victim of domestic violence will arrested for calling for help When there is injury to both, the man will also be arrested, meaning in situations with bi directional violence (66% of Intimate partner violence), women will be able to use the police as a tool in their abuse (let me hit you or I'll call the police and you'll spend the night in a cell) Does this sound like a good policy to you, yay or nay?

[@MidnightDrearyMD]

Why does this guy keep self reporting with these anecdotes? Dude was literally like "all my homies are secret rapists"

[@Blueorange22]

Is a woman reporting rape not an anecdotal piece of evidence? Thus wouldn't any study of the prevalence of rape be based on anecdotal evidence? I don't think anecdotal evidence should be so quickly dismissed by default.

[@MidnightDrearyMD]

@@Blueorange22 ... The point of what I said had nothing to do with anyone's evidence's validity. I said he brought up stories about how he's friends with at least two rapists, that I remember, for basically no reason. Also if all data and observation is just anecdotal, I guess nothing is real because everything is just my own anecdote of the whole world so I'm solipsistic now. Kisses.

[@lydiafayre9806]

@@Blueorange22 Did you just latch on to the word anecdotal and madlib the point you most expect to hear in conjunction with that word?

[@Blueorange22]

@@lydiafayre9806 No, I'm explaining the value of anecdotal evidence. Many instances of sexual assault are never even brought to court; this means they are- statistically speaking- anecdotal. But that does NOT mean they don't count.

[@lydiafayre9806]

@@Blueorange22 I realize that's the thing you're talking about. What i asked was how you got into the headspace of discussing something so wholly unrelated to the comment OP made.

[@linaiisaye8357]

It's good to advocate for men's social equality , it's also good to advocate for women's social eqaulity . The problem starts when you advocate for rights or social issues to the undue detriment of another group. We either lift everyone up, or we are all screwed.

[@nilsjohnson2636]

Men are still given higher sentences for the same crimes, less likely to receive welfare and no less than a third of abused men are turned away from shelters because of their sex.

[@linaiisaye8357]

@Maxamillion fair enough, I will edit that in actually, thanks.

[@linaiisaye8357]

@@nilsjohnson2636 which is why it's good to advocate for dealing with those problems. And honestly, most Feminists I speak to (my mom being one) advocate for solving this.

[@albinozebra276]

@@nilsjohnson2636 okay and who makes the shots? a group of women? no the JUSTICE system, i don’t understand why MRA try so hard to blame the opposite gender for problems the justice system with BOTH women and men who are corrupt.

[@thomascusack687]

@Maxamillion I agree that "rights" might not be the right term but it wouldn't be the first time an acronym was oversimplified to get a point across. I have plenty of problems with what some MRAs say but some of them do call out social issues even if "men's rights activist" wouldn't suggest that taken at face value. In my opinion, ACAB (All Cops Are Bastards) isn't true for every cop as a person. That being said I can recognize that the US Police system is flawed in a way that makes the better cops not speak out against bad cops as much as they should. ACAB delivers the message quickly but taken at face value it's a hard argument to make.

[@DRourkey]

It's kind of hard for me to say mens rights are important right now while Texas is trying to write legislation that allows their police to arrest women leaving the state for medical care

[@arcanineryu]

They still are important, but not really worth women focusing much on kinda regardless of situation. Since the main problems with men aren't really caused by women, but are either self-inflicted or caused by other men. Meaning women changing their own behavior does nothing to solve the problems. Which is also why men's rights movements fail so consistently. Men's rights movements pit men against women and nonbianary people, which is at best a harmful distraction because most of men's enemies and abusers are other men. So grouping up based on gender for men generally just results in grouping abusers with their potential victims, then isolating them from those who could recognize the situation and intervene.

[@Avrysatos]

He talks about the definition of rape in India, but doesn't seem to be aware that feminist groups in the US fought for a redefinition of rape 10 years ago to INCLUDE men.

[@shrisiva4016]

It was to extend it to anal penetration, that happened to include men, not to change it to include male victim with female perpetrators.

[@MiketheNerdRanger]

@@shrisiva4016 yes it was, actually; "...or the introduction of the genitalia without consent." It's referred to as "made to penetrate," which counts as rape.

[@Avrysatos]

@@shrisiva4016 why are you lying? People have Google. The current FBI definition of rape: The carnal knowledge of a person, without the consent of the victim, including instances where the victim is incapable of giving consent because of his/her age or because of his/her temporary or permanent mental or physical incapacity.

[@nilsjohnson2636]

Seriously, this myth that feminists changed the law to include men is a slap in the face to male survivors who have had to fight on their own (and still do), state by state, to have forced to penetrate included in the legal definition of rape. STILL an ongoing battle. Follow James Landrith, look him up on his website, on Twitter. He knows this firsthand.

[@Avrysatos]

@@nilsjohnson2636 I just copied the definition from the FBI website. I can provide details of which groups pushed for it. Just because it doesn't match what a reactionary grifter told you doesn't make it false. Reality only works that way if you're part of the maga cult. Also the fact that states are slow to adopt federal standards isn't the issue here.

[@ShazyShaze]

If this guy is just innocently concerned with men's rights issues, then why compromise his stance by blatantly lying about the intentions of feminist movements? Kind of hints at where his priorities really are, I think.

[@faidheanta2611]

I dont think he's lying per se

[@jasondole8482]

But he only lied on every instance. Though I doubt he would doubt my data as well.

[@soacker25]

Hes not lying🤷🏿‍♂️

[@hermithouse]

MRA advocates are the “all lives matter” people of gender equality. Their goal isn’t actually to fight and advocate for equal rights for men in areas where they are sometimes harshly tested (ie. justice systems) but to organize to crap on and stop feminists from trying to get more equality for women.

[@gaelicfemboy7763]

@@hermithouse You say MRAs are trying to stop feminists from advocating for women but funnily enough I've never heard of MRAs protesting and pulling fire alarms at feminist conventions. I have heard of the opposite though.

[@CorpsmanUP87]

A lot of our parents were alive when women couldn't even have a credit card or bank account in their own name. (Ya know: things you need to start a business) This is one of the reasons why I am okay with women being granted preference over men when applying for loans.

[@thezaytunpeach]

When this guy essentially said 'I don't trust that court cases data but I have read a lot of stories on Reddit...' I lost it.

[@shrisiva4016]

Men's issues: homelessness, suicide, boys falling behind in education, workplace deaths, etc

[@liberaldriller9884]

Workplace deaths ; you're referring to the construction industry where most deaths are falling from height. That's a health and safety issue not a 'men's right's issue.....

[@hoominbeeing]

The draft, male genital mutilation, Duluth model, diversity quotas favouring women Those are the few actually enshrined in the law or education systems. The others may be issues, but I'm not sure they're the result of a system actively working against men, so they wouldn't be men's RIGHTS issues.

[@shrisiva4016]

@@hoominbeeing I said men's issues didn't I? I think you're taking the "men's rights" label too literally. It's used to describe broader issues that men and boys face and the system ain't really doing anything about these issues.

[@alangivre2474]

And truckers road accidents and policemen killings. But it is indeed a men's issue. Men are pressured to enter into physically dangerous jobs. And they are pressured to accept the lack of worker safety.

[@ProperlyGaming]

Not to mention how people shrug off young men getting sexually assaulted.

[@shizanketsuga8696]

"If I just pull numbers out of my arse the data shows I am correct." - That guy basically.

[@TheMrVengeance]

"I doubt your scientific, well-documented data. It doesn't sound right. Because look, this anti-feminist Reddit post on an MRA subreddit has nine-thousand upvotes. Can't argue with that."

[@blane2472]

When vaush said 1 in 4 kyle was sure it was lower, but frankly I think it's much higher. I remember watching "I'll be gone in the dark" and almost every woman they speak to (who wasn't a victim of the main criminal in that show) had her own story of sexual assault or rape. Among the women in my life I know well enough to be able to know this, I can't think of more than 1 or 2 who have never (revealed to me at least) been sexually assaulted or raped. 1 in 4 is a very optimistic number.

[@saininj]

I would imagine it's higher too. Getting groped counts, and that's happened to practically all the women I've known in my life.

[@jesspavlichenko5745]

The age when it starts is also of huge concern. I was 12 when I first started getting cat called from men

[@janetsnakehole3734]

Love that you acknowledged that it may have happened to other people you're thinking of and they just haven't opened up. It's so sad to think that guys like this probably have a lot of women in their lives with stories that they would never share with him. And how could they feel safe to with people who think like this?

[@teawithcinnamon]

This dude has obviously never had a sexual relationship with a man.

[@AnimeGirlYaoiChan]

Him saying that teaching consent classes is bad because then rapist will learn how to get away with it is like saying people shouldn't take self defense classes because muggers will learn how to get away with it. Fucking ridiculous.

[@mrgaudy1954]

Shouldn’t men’s rights activists change their name? I’m not saying that there’s no conversation to be had around how society views/treats men but most of their complaints aren’t due to a diminishment of rights in the traditional sense. it’s more of a nebulous “they’re not treating us good” sort of movement. The only rights I can think of that *do* need addressing are biases in family court/parentage, the draft and criminal sentencing. However, it seems that most of these MRA’s just use these topics as evidence of society being anti-men prior to a segway into their joker-esque ranting.

[@davidlittler8512]

Part of the reason why this guy got derided by the Majority report was because he couldn't answer basic questions or even define what his idea of certain things he was saying even were.

[@hermithouse]

And he kept trying to do the exact same stuff he did here, like try to debunk a standard point by pointing to some niche thing in some other country on the other side of the world. If your defence against a point is “well, did you know in India X happens?” Then you have no point and your position is idiotic. But he kept doing it and Majority Report kept trying to keep him focused only on local - and therefore actually relevant - reasoning.

[@sepiteria7797]

Quick thing about the consent classes thing: I’ve never been to one, but my guess is that they’re not just for potential r**ists, they’re for people to know if their level of consent has been violated and that it’s not their fault

[@MrTARDIS]

Alternative title: MRA having his echo chamber burst for 2 hours.

[@greywolf7577]

If people believe in Feminism, shouldn't they be concerned about issues that affect both genders rather than just women?

[@badrhetoric5637]

So this guy called into the Majority report quoting a study that showed women are more willing to torture men or something along those lines. He may have been referring to the milgram experiment, which was studying how willing people were to obey authority. Didn't have much to do with men vs women. On that dishonesty or ignorance alone we should be wary of this one.

[@Coffeebean1985]

True

[@DoctorJellicle]

The toxic masculinity portion was unsatisfying. It is the root of a lot of problems and it didn't seem they really addressed it properly.

[@davos4667]

I always notice that the people who disagree with the idea of toxic masculinity never make it to the point in conversation where the actual aspects of it to be discussed get explained

[@DoctorJellicle]

@@davos4667 yeah, I ended up watching his discussion with Sam Seder and he couldn't even really articulate what toxic masculinity was (let alone whether it existed)

[@davos4667]

@@DoctorJellicle its incredibly frustrating because i don’t think people like this guy are that far gone, but they have never been sat down and explained what the thing the intuitively hate so much actually is and dont seem to want to listen long enough for that to be addressed

[@moggymoon6459]

See, I feel like I could be more sympathetic to the MRA stuff if they didn't do the whole fear mongering and misconstruing of information thing. Like there are valid criticisms they make, but the way they go about it is really off-putting and reminds me of the alt-right.

[@KarlSnarks]

It's just a shame that there isn't a strong community of leftist men's rights advocates that work together with feminist movements but can also be critical of them when needed (because yes, sometimes feminist theory has blind spots just like any ideological framework). This would make it much easier for guys to not fall into the trap of the MRM. There is a small reddit community called r/MensLib or something like that, which is pretty good from what I've seen, but sometimes moderated too strongly in my personal opinion. (for instance in a thread, discussion about the right to "paper abortion" was moderated because the mods thought it went against their feminist principles)

[@gaelicfemboy7763]

@@KarlSnarks r/leftwingmaleadvocates is that

[@shrisiva4016]

@faith ReaderUh huh, fighting for gender equality is Soo right wing....

[@xx_luigi_xx7223]

Most of what MRAs (I think) actually only have problems with TERFS and rad-fems. I hate them. I won't lie, they are horrible human beings to call themselves "feminists" when they could not be more different. Feminists want actual equality, while terfs and rad-fems want "equality." (which is actually just women superiority)

[@lb2791]

I've talked to people who literally couldn't fathom that rape was possible in a marriage. I can't imagine what people like this have done and had no clue it was wrong. That's why consent classes are absolutely important. Pretending like bad things are only done by monsters and not by people like you and me might help you sleep at night but it's extremely lazy and keeps the problem alive.

[@seanjones7822]

"I've lived with girlfriends before, if we ever got into a full on (spout of domestic violence) I'd win every time." -Out of context Vaush for 500

[@Paige-xd1yv]

The statistic is that 97% of women have been sexually assaulted and this can start super young like 3 years old young. Rapists want POWER and CONTROL. Most rapists will be a friend or someone you are close with. It's not all violent rape like you might see in the movies. This guy needs to spend a bit more time talking to women about this issue if he's going to focus on the rape of women aspect...

[@esosa7725]

I'm not 100 percent sure on my recollection here, but wasn't that survey shown to have an unreasonably wide definition on what sexual assault is? Again, correct me if I'm wrong here

[@mistressofstones]

Esosa the 97% figure comes from a survey of women in the UK having been sexually harassed in public. The government was shocked at this and dedicated to creating a safe environment for young women. A similar survey was undertaken in NZ with similar result. So although SA victims would come within this 97% it's more about the continuum (spectrum) of sexual violence. Sexual harassment is a threat of grape, because the person doesn't interact with you as a human but as a thing, an object, whose experience is unimportant. Things don't have rights. Seeing as women are apparently supposed to be full citizens now then this is totally unacceptable. But it doesn't mean 97% have been grape d. That's my understanding.

[@kamyab4597]

Saw Shoe say in chat that toxic masculinity is a not a good term. Completely disagree; toxic masculinity is an extremely descriptive term, it's just that a lot of men are incredibly fragile.

[@dvnmaycry]

Calling it toxic masculinity is beyond a compromise for what others might just call all masculinity

[@kamyab4597]

@@dvnmaycry based and true. Masculinity has meant different things in different times, yet i think it's reasonable to say it has always functioned to oppress

[@gaelicfemboy7763]

Toxic masculinity is a victim blaming term for how men are treated by society and the norms they are forced to conform to. When women are forced to conform to gender norms it is called sexism or misogyny, not toxic femininity.

[@SkellyJBones]

A lot of people don't seem to get that when the term toxic masculinity is used, it isn't saying masculinity itself is toxic. The word toxic is being used as an adjective, people need to stop being dishonest or learn basic grammar.

[@shrisiva4016]

Isn't criticising men for being fragile toxic masculinity 101. You're killing your whole argument

[@Agentsmiskatonic]

I was mostly on the Majority Reports side of mocking and chastising him, then he started talking about Rape culture and now I am 100% on their side.

[@lastmouseontheleft]

MR totally clowned him. i GET why he’s crusty about that interview, but i think if you go in thinking that as an MRA you’re entitled to be taken seriously… you’re just gonna have a bad time. and here… Vaush didn’t even do much.. just.. let him ramble about Reddit anecdotes being the same as data… this is one of this instances where.. you could be mad this guy got to platform his stupidity… but he just had so little to say it hardly seems worth the bother.

[@Agentsmiskatonic]

@@lastmouseontheleft I do not disagree with any of that. I've still got about 15 mins left, and hes on the "I lied, but actually no I didnt" argument

[@EmpireGamingWynter]

38:42 he literally proved rape culture by trying to defend a rapist while denying it exists. Ignorance to the law is not a defence, its up to us to learn what consent means. And as I'm typing this comment here come more examples of him contributing to rape culture.

[@fnord3125]

"1 in 4 does sound a little high to me" BASED ON WHAT, MY GUY???

[@JayD73]

His fee fees

[@zachariah78]

This guy called in to the Majority Report and thought he was entitled to a one on one "debate" with Sam and continued to dismiss the 2 woman on the show HE called in to.

[@Ajay-d]

Did you realise they were scoffing at him right from the start? I mean one of the women even rolled her eyes the moment he introduced himself. He doesn't owe them anything. And at some point correlation doesn't imply causation. Just because he ignored the women doesn't mean he ignores all women. Maybe he just found them condescending and decided to focus on person C. This is the problem with feminists in general. For all the faults of MRAs they're wrong usually but they're usually not dishonest. But with feminists it's dishonesty 101 and they sidetrack to somehow make it a gender issue when there is none.

[@SeanLaMontagne]

@@Ajay-d After watching this debate, their attitude towards him and his ideas were very justified. Think of it like this, just because I haven't spoken to every nazi doesn't mean I am not justified in scoffing at every one I talk to in the future.

[@Ajay-d]

@@SeanLaMontagne You really compared him to a Nazi? Where do I even start sheesh

[@SeanLaMontagne]

@@Ajay-d Pleeeeeaaase tell me you didn't just miss my analogy. I didnt call him a nazi. I made an analogy. What do you think my analogy meant?

[@Ajay-d]

​@@SeanLaMontagne You don't think analogies can be wrong and way off the mark? How stupid do you think I am?