Deep Dive Into The Philosophy of Psychedelics

Are mystical type, or 'metaphysical experiences' induced by psychedelics 'real,' or are they hallucinations? This question is now becoming urgent in psychiatry as psychedelic therapy is worldwide gaining acceptance as a potent way to improve mental health, from depression and anxiety to ADHD and autism. From a physicalist perspective, this raises an ethical dilemma: what if patients ascribe positive outcomes to a change in metaphysical beliefs? For instance, that after a psychedelic trip they become convinced that there is life after death, or a mind at large? And what if-as studies show-exactly this metaphysical shift makes them feel better? Did the psychedelic therapist then provide a 'comforting delusion' to cure patients? As Jussi Jylkkä, PhD, argues, solving the 'comforting delusion objection' from a physicalist framework is incoherent. In a video essay style, Hans Busstra tries to comprehend the current debate and, by sharing Jylkkä's insights, to serve an 'idealist dish' on the metaphysical menu for interpreting the psychedelic experience. The core idea set forth is: psychedelics induce a 'model collapse' and, when argued consequently, this undermines a physicalist metaphysics. An idealist interpretation of the psychedelic experience is much more coherent and satisfactory.
00:05 Intro: visiting the International Conference on Psychedelic Research (ICPR 2022)
01:14 The scientific definition of psychedelics
01:57 Psychedelics cause a change in metaphysical beliefs
03:15 Metaphysics is entering psychiatry
04:47 On the need to be metaphysically agnostic
05:14 We need a metaphysical menu
06:48 Cooking an idealist dish
07:58 A brief history of psychedelic discourse
09:40 Overview of the classic literature (almost all idealist!)
10:38 The Doors of Perceptions (Huxley)
11:18 The Psychedelic Experience (Alpert, Leary)
12:06 The Psychedelic Explorers Guide (Fadiman)
12:35 An idealist interpretation of the psychedelic experience
16:13 'Naturalism' as proposed by Chris Letheby
18:33 Jussi Jylkkä on the comforting delusion objection
19:36 The comforting delusion explained
22:31 Scientistic Naturalism opposed to Real Naturalism
26:03 Our models limit our experience on reality
27:39 Alison Gopnik on the psychedelic experience as the 'baby state'
28:26 Why have we evolved into beings relying on models?
33:02 Terrence McKenna on boundary dissolution, now empirically established
35:02 Can you gain veridical knowledge in the psychedelic state?
37:53 Trying to understand the comforting delusion objection
39:23 Huxley's prism metaphor
42:21 Models collapse: and that also goes for science! (the hard problem then is a non-problem!)
46:40 Letheby is mistaken, we have to let go of our fictions
48:14 The phenomenological 'turn' to solve the problem within a physicalist framework
52:04 We can know nature by being part of nature: on the role of psychedelics
54:21 Closing remark: model collapse a good thing for humanity
For more information on the ICPR conference visit:
icpr-conference.com/
Copyright © 2023 by Essentia Foundation. All rights reserved.
www.essentiafoundation.org

[@azaleawinston]

It is absolutely beautiful how people talk so many things about psychedelic and magic mushrooms too. Everyone focused on how magic mushrooms can change and also save lives.. I haven't try it but I deep down I really what to try it.. just looking for a reliable source..

[@avacampbell4045]

I have tried psychedelic, and it is something I wish everyone who wishes to have a taste of it should.. Psychedelic is definitely a blessing from nature.

[@azaleawinston]

@avacampbell4045 I really want to have an experience of magic mushroom. I have heard a lot of things people talk about it and is positive to me. I'm just looking for where I can get it from...

[@deniskostenko3612]

Taking two grams of dried psilocybin mushrooms was really awesome.

[@avacampbell4045]

​@@azaleawinston Woww..

[@avacampbell4045]

​@@azaleawinston😂

[@calebbrantley193]

This might be one of the most important videos on KZbin right now. Phenomenal job analyzing what seems to be a nearly impossible subject to comprehend fully. Watching this video was almost like a psychedelic trip in and of itself!

[@rebeccajaynesart8369]

As a late 60’s psychedelic “hippie” of the Haight-Ashbury (san Francisco) epoch…I enjoyed your friendly and cheerful talk a lot. Those were beautiful times and it’s too bad that the push-back/back-lash worked to silence us. I’m happy to see this new “movement.”

[@IanMiller]

These are a invaluable set of videos, that are informative, engaging and thought-provoking. I also appreciate the work that has gone into their production. Really helping on my own dive into idealism and consciousness. Thanks.

[@essentiafoundation]

Thanks, this is really encouraging to hear, I will try and level up our production of videos like these!

[@patrickdelarosa7743]

What a great video, it deserves much more views and support from its subscribers, please do something good for the humanity and share it.

[@FrankJIvins]

Your videos are the best that have appeared on this channel. I love the format. Keep it up!

[@adamd585]

I haven't watched the whole video yet, but after poking around different timestamps, this video looks really good. Superb job with this! Thank you.

[@hugothales4902]

Great video. Great content. Hans has a wonderful talent to simplify philosophy. Keep going. I will be watching and listening. Some level of visualisation of the ideas would help me a lot. How could a model breakdown or a model dissolution look like? Is there any form of art which can bring us to the experience?

[@JimKanaris]

A very informative video, fairly outlining the strengths and weaknesses of physicalist metaphysics--something I've come to expect from analytic idealism. Thank you.

[@rawrisimo]

Avi Loeb always recalls this story about a fellow astrophysicist who told him: “Omuamua is so strange, I wish it didn’t exist!”. Forcing a naturalist interpretation of the psychedelic phenomenon is kinda the same. We acknowledge its potential, we know it’s pretty much within reach of everyone who takes a high enough dosis, we know it is of a mystical nature, yet naturalists “wish it didn’t exist” and the argument is always the same: it contradicts our models. I only wish to live what comes out of this new psychedelic movement, I’m hopeful tbh.

[@robertjohnston1920]

This is crazy stuff, good job trying to articulate these things. I personally don't know what I think about naturalism & psychedelics jiving, but do I know psychedelics appear to show that consciousness can leave the body, NDEs as well. Models collapse but the consciousness remains in certain states. One could say these are hallucinations, but there is very slight evidence against that in the case of NDEs. Some NDE reports contain examples of the person being clinically 'dead', and bringing back information they 'could not have known' such as the specific tools the doctors and surgeons were pulling out and using. I found these reports especially interesting, suggesting that the persons consciousness was indeed floating above their body. Just something to consider, I don't firmly believe one way or the other on this.

[@spiritfilled5758]

This is it... Something has to be holding IT 😮... Loved this. Thank you

[@Time-Shepherd.]

I'm becoming proud of humanity as I see consciousness finally tuning itself beyond the childlike caveman style perceptive qualities & the Synthesis of the notion we are not our thoughts or beliefs is under way! Lux et veritas ♥️ ✨️🙃

[@Juanc09051]

Thanks for this insightful deconstruction of the debate, Hans!

[@leebonnifield6868]

"This is it", like "I am that" describes the lack of a boundary. The first model is imagining something is not me. Scientism is the minimal model with enough boundaries for verification to be possible. Ineffability is inevitable when there is no separation over which communication can occur.

[@alexm9165]

Amazing video thanks so much for ahowibg clips of the conference and giving us your thoughts. Very useful !!

[@plainjane2305]

Thank you! The belief that scientific inquiry is the only path to knowledge, and that scientific knowledge is the only true kind of knowledge, is IMO a great error. Scientific knowledge is knowledge of a sort, both useful and powerful, but is limited.

[@Samanayoga]

Thank you, very insightful, easy to understand, plus great food for thought. Studying for entheogenic medicine facilitator program in OR USA. I will share with my cohort.

[@TheTastyPancake]

Great video. It was great to hear your thoughts on the subject and also Jussi's brilliant questioning of our perception. (And he's representing Finland btw woop woop! ;)) I personally don't think the word "hallucination" makes sense. Everything we experience or think is a part of this one reality and thus true at least in some sense. But then again, Bernardo Kastrup has convinced me that materialism is baloney :D

[@uditagangwal3126]

Thank you for this informative essay. Could you please share the title of the intro music?

[@berenice39]

Great food for thought and well edited

[@chetanpatil1654]

great analysis thanks

[@zlizeko]

fantastic video!

[@Gtyjnbccvbvcccvvbjnnk34678]

Wonderful! Well done

[@Pallasathena-hv4kp]

44:00 Jussi is paralleling a story of “The 2 Thorns,” as told by Sri Ramakrishna. The first thorn stuck in your skin is suffering. You use a second thorn (knowledge) to pick out the first thorn. Then you throw BOTH away.

[@doodlus]

Loved it! Thank you

[@theffenlimit]

I’ve often thought about us a potential soup. Im medically trained and essentially our physicality is based on cellular dna keeping one cell from liquifying into another - it’s all membranes, pumps, locks/keys, pressures……when we die we starting decomposing and what we kept in different compartments return to a soup, the earth etc. Im a collection of cells borrowed from cake and a life force that keeps it all organised (organ-ised 😅) into a body until it no longer does… I can’t help but think about the idea that we can’t dream about any single thing that we haven’t yet experienced, that our internal world is mirroring/married to our external….. Exciting times

[@theffenlimit]

I can’t help but feel that the questioning of reality in psychology and mental healthcare scene is fairly unhelpful when speaking about what’s best for patient’s and outcomes of those who aren’t comfortable with theology and spirituality - essentially those rooted and relying in a physical reality that feel they can reliably experience reality and have the tools and knowledge to do so. To the individual who needs help, whatever their reality is won’t be helped by re orientation into another person’s beliefs or education. Yes a gentle change and drive in the language used in such conversations . Modern medicine, law etc would benefit from removing the phrase ‘it’s al in your mind’ as a way to discredit someone - yes it is in ours minds and minds are lethal!

[@Suzume-Shimmer]

We do dream about things we havent experienced though. Flying is just one example of many.

[@louisemorgan3237]

So when we're dead the cake is baked but alive we're just batter

[@theffenlimit]

@@louisemorgan3237 🤩🤣😂

[@theffenlimit]

@@Suzume-Shimmer I think I meant to say that we don’t dream of anything that isn’t already borrowed concepts or experiences from else where, arranged and smashed together in nonsensical ways. flying is a concept we understand though through falling, watching birds or films, reading stories etc

[@markborst5630]

Geweldig! Hoge productie waarde!

[@ParallelNewsNetwork]

Watching people try to explain the experience of consciousness expanding entheogens in terms of materialist science is such a rich cope. And also to mention the Plato’s allegory of the cave and then to mention being a finite mortal being in the sentence shows just how whacky academia has become with their dogmatic physicalist viewpoints.

[@Jorge.Piedra]

Bravo Hans and Essentia FOundation

[@polymathpark]

This idea of model collapse can be explained entirely physically, in cognitive science we see how our constructs and categories can develop and sustain themselves over time, and the psychedelics simply disrupt those constructs.

[@leebonnifield6868]

I think it is worthwhile to maintain a concept of explanation and knowledge compatible with a physical model. The surprise is that that model is limited. Physical explanations which can be verified repeatedly are not possible if the model of time collapses, or if all the boundaries that separate observer from observed or one observer from another collapse. So I'm OK with using a different word than "know" (say "gno") for what can be experienced but not expressed plainly enough to be communicated science. It surprised me (physics major) that anything ineffable (so can't be "known") could be MORE convincing, as gnosis. “A man sets out to draw the world. As the years go by, he peoples a space with images of provinces, kingdoms, mountains, bays, ships, islands, fishes, rooms, instruments, stars, horses, and individuals. A short time before he dies, he discovers that the patient labyrinth of lines traces the lineaments of his own face." -- Jorge Luis Borges "...it is the discontinuous change of our knowledge in the instant of registration that has its image in the discontinuous change of the probability function." -- Heisenberg Brain activity is building and maintaining models which allow consistency like the physical world including "other" observers. Mind manifests.

[@Ryan88881]

What do you mean simply? Obviously the psychedelic experiences impart certain constructs, it doesn't just "disrupt" or play around with already existing ones. There's plenty of concepts that I was not even aware of that hallucinogens have conveyed even though I didn't find out these were real concepts and terms until after the experience. Also what you're describing could probably easily be done without any drugs, or at least done just with drugs in general rather than just psychedelics or hallucinogens. I don't see how this view of "disrupting mental constructs" is at all compatible or commensurate with the phenomenological aspects of psychedelic experiences themselves.

[@polymathpark]

@@Ryan88881 of course brain happenings are never simple, my b. Sam Harris also makes this point, that much of these revelations can be had while sober, it just takes longer and isn't as vivid.

[@Ryan88881]

@@polymathpark I'm not talking about revelations. I'm talking about very specific mental constructs/concepts that were not in my "conceptual inventory" beforehand. For example, LSD taught me what morphic resonance was, which I didn't find out was an actual thing/concept or that it had a specific label at all until quite some time after the trip. Just like Datura taught me what necromancy was, even though I had no concept of such an idea and never even made the connection of "sorcery/magic" with "contacting ghosts" or "inhabitants of the underworld". These are just two examples though. And just to continue on the Datura example, it taught me extremely intimately so many things about witchcraft/sorcery and herbalism and the chthonic, etc. in such depth, to the point where I would only have the understanding I did thereafter if I had read dozens of books on the topic. But even then I doubt it could compare to having the experience itself because it imbues not just the superficial concept, but it actually injects a deep and multidimensional *fundamental* understanding of the concept in ways reading folkloristic literature just cannot capture. Like when datura showed me the concept of 'cunningness' as it relates to all that witchy and herbalist stuff, it imparted a, like I said; just totally fundamental and multidimensional core understanding and an entire informed *mentality* oriented around cunningness. I understood cunningness at that point, not merely as just a descriptive behavior or concept but as essentially a whole lifestyle and mental paradigm that was more complete and yet still commensurate with the lore itself. I mean at this point, when I'm reading witchcraft lore I can't help but feel like they could use some pointers and clarifications because obviously there's going to be countless gaps in understanding to be filled in and clarified for the lore-maker because it's from the outside looking in. Either way, my point here is that many of these hallucinogenic plants and fungi (LSD being the one exception) clearly have implicit archetypal schemas and "themes" and tropes which are intersubjective/universal and therefore generalizable. And there's also obviously the entities themselves and every entity I've ever encountered was listed in places like the DMT Nexus. I mean this has essentially been known for decades, people from different cultures/backgrounds encountering the same entities on psychedelics as well as identical themes with particular substances. Even the plants and fungi themselves have a "presence" or identifiable spirit or entity attached to the experience and they have the same qualities for all users. For example the "psilocybin entity" has the same humorous, irreverent, child-like, playful, pedagogical, wise, extraterrestrial, androgynous nature for all trippers. Just like how the ayahuasca entity is the same feminine, maternal, counseling, healing, Gaian type of entity/persona for all ayahuasca trippers.

[@marvellousmindpodcast]

loved this!

[@sofie4you]

Woooo, dit was geweldig Dank🎉

[@deepblack67]

This is great, but people, you need to do more than map the experience of the subject as a computer, at least add an antenna beyond the senses, and connections beyond the material senses. Immerse ego experience in a field of relationship, and stop thinking of dimensions but plains, octaves, fractals, harmonics.

[@0ptimal]

Excellent

[@N0r8]

Super nice 👍

[@AlexGoodall]

Hello Hans. Thanks for that - very helpful. I recently read Alexander Beiner's book - The Bigger Picture: How Psychedelics Can Help Us Make Sense of the World - which aligns well with your position (and mine!). You asked what we might want more clarification on - here's my topic. You talked about a bacteria as an example of a living, consious entity with its cell wall being the membrane separating it from the rest of the world. In Analytic Idealism terminology, it's a dissociated alter. For us humans, I believe the membrane is our skin. And yet we CONTAIN bacteria. (According to some estimates, we contain 39 trillion bacteria - about 10 times the number of human cells). So we have dissociated alters within a dissociated alter. Is that right? And the more fundamental question - what is it about a bacterial cell that makes it different to a human cell, which I believe isn't regarded as a dissociated alter? Thanks for any clarification on this.

[@smartjared7203]

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[@vee985]

Fantastic video! I wish anyone interested in psychedelics could get access to them. I believe it would change the world. In a good way.

[@smartjared7203]

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[@vee985]

@@smartjared7203 Thanks

[@chrisk1208]

What is striking to keep, as an experienced psychonaut, us that brain activity decreases during psychedelic experiences. How then can psychedelic experiences of increased consiousness be correlated with brain activity?

[@louisemorgan3237]

More like the reverse in fact, like in meditation??

[@FoursWithin]

The greatest decreases are in the prefrontal cortex. The areas of so called higher cognition. This in turn allows other areas to come front and center. The idea of more or less consciousness is a relative statement. As it is merely a brain state change allowing a person the awareness of stuff which is going all the time but has been slated to the far background by the noise of higher cognition 'machinery'. Similar to how you might only hear your baby crying in its crib after you've turned off the high volume war movie in the living room.

[@Ryan88881]

@@FoursWithin Isn't the greatest decrease in the thalamus? I ultimately do agree though. It decreases the filters.

[@FoursWithin]

@@Ryan88881 Hi Ryan, The quote below is what I'm familiar with, but it may not be the latest info as I read it a few years back. If you know of any new relevant data feel free to share , as I love learning more about this. " The largest decreases were observed in the the medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC) and the anterior and posterior cingulate cortices (ACC and PCC, respectively). The scans also showed a reduction in functional connectivity between the mPFC and PCC, so that their normally synchronous activity was de-synchronized. Furthermore, the intensity of the drug’s effects - as reported, subjectively, by the participants - was closely related to the extent of decreased ACC and mPFC activity, with the strongest effects associated with the largest decreases." -from the science journal NATURE However by 2018 , increasing evidence implies that the PFC cannot be dissociated from its main thalamic counterpart, the mediodorsal thalamus.

[@lerienbt]

Who's the journalist? No intro or name in the description?

[@essentiafoundation]

Hi my name was a bit hidden in the description, but here it is: Hans Busstra. Hope you enjoyed the video!

[@AmiraAroraOfficial]

👍

[@drakosophos]

27:00 - So much of this philosophy would be better understood if you individuals up at the top here would read Douglas Harding “On Having No Head” and “The Science of the First Person” There is an entire stage of life of perception as babies and children where things like object impermanence equal a different reality - (content dictates form). And as far as “de-mystifying” this is key, because this idea of children and the impermanence of things, etc. this is what is meant by “Be ye as children” in the Bible, so good luck detaching those notions! This is equivalent to the Zen stuff that one gentleman was speaking about a few minutes back.

[@jorisvannieuwburg6617]

The wonder of a baby...Plato cherished wonder....as a gate to wisdom or understanding...Every problem or question is a way to experience the answer/solution...because a question/wondering can only be asked from the subsatnce of the solution/answer....;) .No psychadelics though...but through meditation or adoration of your higher self more radiant the the sun, purer then snow...the purity of a childlike heart...i am sure young children see angels.... and so can we... our pure the heart as a gateway to our soul space.... with a clear mind....

[@Ryan88881]

Or just be logical and carry out an act of humility by cutting a deal with a plant.

[@ttrainor70]

It's a clear light, although I understand why they call it "white light" It's so bright, it shines right through you, and within you

[@GiedriusMisiukas]

1:44 46:00 on logic and truth

[@1sanremy]

The big question is ( for me) : Is the psychedelic experience a valid reliable source of knowledge ? I use a lot of psychotropic drugs (RC, CBD, PSY) daily, making cocktails of chaotic proportions, inducing very weird states of mind. One of this special state is when your personnality splits in 2 parts : TEACHER/STUDENT or MASTER/NEOPHYTE or GOD/HUMAN, depending on the spiritual depth of the trip. It is always challenging and even frightening but also teaching profound crazy ideas about reality. BUT they are all kind of tools that can boost the trip, such as MUSIC, MEDITATION, DANCE, BRIEFING, COLD SHOWER, SEX, FASTING . Peace & love

[@jameskim3915]

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[@jameskim3915]

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[@jameskim3915]

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[@Ryan88881]

Well yes, obviously. Smart people have done psychedelics and have analyzed it and posed this question and explored it to a mind-rattling and nauseating degree. But even putting that aside, psychedelics clearly meet all the reasonable and logical criteria for epistemological justification and valuation. From the source, to the composition itself as well as the nature of the actual insights and conclusions. You can also do a retrospective analysis and assessment of the thing "after the fact" once you've "sobered up" to discern and judge the modalities and quality of the insights from your normal state of consciousness as well. The thing you have to understand here is that psychedelic tryptamines (a.k.a. real psychedelics) are subjectively *more real than normal reality* ...like a LOT more. So logically speaking, if what psychedelics impart and/or convey is actually inauthentic... well, then that spells trouble for our baseline perception of reality because baseline does not match up to the sheer level of cognizance, clarity, epistemic potency, etc. that is imbibed by psychedelics. I mean, it just sort of stands to reason how if THAT isn't real/authentic in any salient way, then it's pretty hard to reconcile the presumed epistemic legitimacy of our current, natural state of consciousness. We can't be "certain" of really; most anything at the end of the day but we have practical metrics like probability, and mathematical probability is absolutely on the side of psychedelics here.

[@1sanremy]

@@Ryan88881 Thanx for your precious feedback. My french old brain needs to integer these ideas.

[@jcinaz]

Regarding the use of hallucinogenic mushrooms, the Sufis do not encourage the use of artificial means of achieving a mystical experience. From their point of view, a true and more permanent establishment of a mystical experience is only achieved through persistent and deliberate practice. A psychedelic induced sense of a metaphysical experience is not a true mystical experience, although it can give a person a sense of what reality could be like, and this artificial experience, however real it appears to be, also tends to pull the experiencer into wanting to repeat the illusion with another dose of psychedelics rather than take the longer path of knowing through personal experience and guidance by a Master. This is very similar to those who have had a near death experience (like myself) who also yearn to re-experience that state of bliss and one-ness that is oft defined as Unconditional Love (absolute neutrality). Idealism, in my view, definitely gives a more accurate view of a metaphysical and mystical view of reality. But the opposite, the Materialistic view, is nonetheless appropriate for our day-to-day living success and should be properly blended with Idealism for correct balance. The revelation of Unified Physics as presented by Nassim Haramein (Resonance Science Foundation) is moving Science in the direction of merging Idealism and Materialism, albeit with a sprinkle of Panpsychism. I do believe that psychedelics are extremely useful as therapeutics for individuals suffering from extreme emotional distress (e.g., PTSD) and can even help for those who are hyper and want to calm down by using CBD. There are unconfirmed cases (according to science) that CBD actually helps to cure cancer. It may be that the calming properties of CBD alleviates the fear associated with a diagnosis of cancer, and that it is the calm state of mind that contributes to cancer remission. Despite that, CBD does have a pain-relieving effect, which would definitely help those who have chosen radiation or chemotherapy for cancer treatment (of which I am opposed given the allegorical high rate of success of herbal and dietary therapies for curing cancer, such as Essiac and Pau d'Arco teas and the Gerson Therapy, respectively).

[@smartjared7203]

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[@dwai963]

physicalism is dead thank you for this video, essentia❤

[@FoursWithin]

It seems that what people often refer to as 'ego death' does encompasse an individuals model collapse. And when someone then comes back from this beyond (beyond the boundary of their models) and then states "I saw God" that is simply another model. A fuzzy dreamy almost incoherent one , but still a model. Also ---- The model view as a worldview seems to be the most nuetral we can get. That as long as we arent sucked into believing we have truth but only models attempting to describe truth we can avoid dogmatic prejudice and assumption. More often at least. Models needn't be true , because we dont really know what truth encompasses.

[@Ryan88881]

I think people conflate too many elements of the psychedelic experience with "ego dissolution". I've had full ego death before but my most thorough ego dissolving experiences never at all correlated with my theological or autonomous entity encounters. And for what it's worth, I *always* (even if I just have a single gram of mushrooms) always feel the "presence" and perceived intelligence of the mushroom entity itself. This is something I've had with Datura as well and there was certainly no "ego dissolution" with nightshade deliriants like datura and brugmansia. I also think comparing dreams (even non-literally/semantically) to psychedelics, especially psychedelic tryptamines is not at all fitting or apt. Dreams are characteristically dissociating and feel much less crisp and 'real' than baseline waking consciousness whereas psychedelic tryptamines obviously feel *more* crisp and vivified and real than baseline consciousness. In many ways 'dreams' are essentially the opposite of true psychedelic experiences. Things like nightshade deliriants however, as well as dissociative anesthetics and marijuana are much more relatable (and probably are neurochemically) to dreams or dream-like states. Also, I'm curious what you mean by "model view". Isn't that already how science works? Or are you referring to epistemology in general? Btw a "scientific model" is by definition an assumption. Not a distinction from an assumption. Unless you're talking about assumed truth. I think reiterating that they really are, just in fact assumptions is best strategy one can perform there.

[@FoursWithin]

@@Ryan88881 Yes this is how science presently 'works' ,using a model view. Although I meant it more generally, as being a more neutral position for ideas, concepts, and such that an average person could encounter throughout their day. Robert Anton Wilson, in who's books I first heard of it, refers to it as model agnosticism. The dream comparison would depend on a person's relationship with dreams. While some of us are lucid dreamers plenty of others barely remember a single dream in a year. It was this aspect of memory I had in mind when I made my original post. Most people come back from a psychedelic trip and can only remember key aspects. Yet an author such as Aldous Huxley writes an entire book about his one mescaline trip. My own experience says there is at least a book worth of ideas in every trip beyond the threshold. So much incoming information was presented but ultimately largely forgotten . Similar to how an epic dream slips away back into the aether.

[@FoursWithin]

@@Ryan88881 Oh yeah. And that's a good call of it being largely assumptions. Even as good as the scientific method has proven itself to be both practical and theoretical there exists plenty of assumptions.

[@Ryan88881]

​@@FoursWithin Hm, I had heard of Robert Anton Wilson but wasn't familiar with his actual work, food for thought. But as far as the dream comparison, I pretty much categorically disagree. I've had lucid dreams and all that but regardless, it's still basically the same qualitatively speaking. A dream still feels "dreamy" whether it's lucid or not, even if it's very intense, complex and engaging. So to compare it to powerhouse psychedelic tryptamines just isn't fitting. Besides, it's already kind of accepted that the other categories of hallucinogens like dissociatives and deliriants come off as being *much* more dreamlike. Dreams can be pretty weird and trippy but I still have no reservations or hesitancy as far as maintaining the notion that dreams are still in many ways, largely the direct opposite of psychedelics. Now the line is blurred a bit with lysergamides like morning glories (LSA) and LSD, but even their more 'oneiric' moments are transient and are manifesting themselves within the larger overall experience itself that is rooted in psychedelia, and dreams just do not feel like true psychedelia. Also I personally never understood why or even how people "forget" the details of their psychedelic experiences. I literally remember nearly every detail perfectly fine and never had any 'memory loss' type of effects or issues from true psychedelics. So when it comes to psychedelic experiences and memory, people are pretty much just bugging. There's no prominent 'anti-memory' effects or anything 'amnesic' like with dreams. With dreams, you can forget HUGE details and plot-points and whole complexified scenarios and storylines literally by the time your feet touch the floor. But with psychedelic tryptamines... I haven't taken any mushrooms since 2014 (almost 10 years ago) and can still recall most all of the content, even the smaller trivial details. Again, hallucinogens that are known for legitimately inducing a 'dreamlike amnesia' or just memory less that is equatable with that of a dream would be dissociatives and deliriants. Especially ketamine. Psychedelic however trips do not feel like some blackout/waking-up-from-anesthesia type of state like you get with ket or dreaming. If psychedelics qualitatively felt like dreaming that'd honestly be boring and people wouldn't make such a big deal about it. There's nothing this side of the grave that is comparable to tryptaminergic psychedelics. But anyways, yes. Scientific theory, even scientific facts themselves are always considered provisional in science. Which is why the word truth and the concept of "certainty" is not used in science. It's all just based on evidence, models and probability.

[@FoursWithin]

​@@Ryan88881 It sounds like you have a much better memory than most folks. Definitely better than mine. 😊 But I may have a better memory for dream. I kept a dream journal for years , with an average of 4 vivid recalls a night. My experience of dream doesn't really fit your particular descriptions. However I do understand dream isn't the best analogy for numerous reasons. Yet oddly enough my trips ( using tryptamines) sound more like your dream descriptions. I'm wondering if my PTSD and brain trauma at an early age have anything to do with it. 🤷 If you have a notion to read any of Wilson's writings my favorite is titled "Quantum Psychology". When I was young reading him was as informative and altering as a trip. This was of course before KZbin existed. Nowadays many of his ideas have entered a much wider audience similar to how easy it is to access McKenna.

[@youtubecanal]

Would psychedelics experience change the mainstream believe that the world is physical and that there are material objects?

[@Ryan88881]

@@Boulanger948 I mean, we can call it an "effect" statistically and observably but it is mostly just the individuals' rational and/or realist consciously noetic assessment of just what's going on right in front of them. Still an "effect" but that wording can be misinterpreted here. Calling it an effect (like mere color saturation or dilation in time perception) is a bit misleading or rather; quite the understatement. Because honestly, the whole dang thing (experience) itself is soo intensely geared and literally directed towards revealing/imparting a magical worldview phenomenologically-speaking that it's really suspicious actually. Because it's *very* insistent on this, and quite palpably 'wants' to dismantle Cartesian materialism/physicalism in a truly thorough and dramatic fashion. It wants to tear the whole thing down. It doesn't just want to posit a few 'barley paranormal' ideals like telepathy or something. I mean it straight up wants to declare that the whole 'thing' (objective reality) is essentially entirely made up of magic from head to toe, with 'nearby-invisible worlds' and entities, deities, forces and other pretty lofty stuff. And this "posit" by the powerhouse psychedelics actually has a lot of direct connection with a majority of the 'lessons' themselves which are disclosed during the trip. This pro-magical anti-materialist stance (especially on psilocybin mushrooms) is very interwoven and central/focalized with respect to many of its most salient messages and lessons to do with the superego and epistemic humility and the relevancy of human knowledge in regard to metaphysics and ontology. It's presented in a pretty unambiguous style too. It can even get pretty impatient when people refuse to "take the hint" and/or they try to 'naturalize' something which inherently antagonizes all naturalistic worldviews and rests the validity and valuation of its declarations on its own ontological stature and essentially argues or makes the strong case for naturalism simply being the ego's impulsive desire to "hold onto" the materialistic physicalist dogmatic lie we've all been fed since the 17th century. Psychedelics reveal themselves as being an apical (if not the apical) epistemic methodology to end all epistemic methodologies. Now don't take me too literally on that last part (because I know there's a variety of methods for understanding), but it does pretty clearly present itself as being "the thing", rather than just "a thing". I can't use empirical evidence to justify the epistemic/knowledgable/authentic degree or nature of psychedelics, but I can use mathematical probability. One of them stemming just from how conspicuously pro-magic/anti-materalistic it is. We can't pretend like that's normal. It'd be very bizarre to assume that just happened through random mutations and natural selection and wasn't intentional. These experiences have far too much structure, organization, 'aboutness', intentionality, coherency, epistemic potency, feeling of intelligence and 'Otherness' while possessing such orthogonal incommensurability in relation to the ocean of commercially produced and consumed imagery, ideograms and conceptual frameworks in which we swim.

[@Ryan88881]

And to add, I'd also argue that anyone who's actually pragmatic and a realist and who reads into and examines history and how certain worldviews and dogmas (like physicalism) actually came to be... they will more than likely come to understand the relativistic and anthropogenically-synthesized nature of paradigms like ontological materialism. Psychedelics help with this because (again, especially psilocybin) strongly drives home this point of just how simian and 'monkey-like' we still are in our grasp or scope of understanding the universe and/or any potential "truth". Psilocybin makes us look like termites trying to construct perfect models for the architectonics of the cosmos and the mushroom (entity) just sits back and laughs. No theologian or epistemologist should even be regarded or taken seriously until they've encountered and interfaced with psilocybin.

[@LeftBoot]

Is Neuronautics the Practical Cognitive Science of Metaphysics? A better map is required. ChatGPT helps.

[@cheweperro]

It feels like we try to eliminate right brain experience and ONLY use left brain Why? Why that drive?

[@Ryan88881]

Rene Descartes

[@wdwdHenry9022]

please that practise tögal get visual experiences without any drugs

[@vv7299]

P is silent

[@MutantMessiah]

As a Metaphysical Solipsist and Atheist, I appreciate this validating my perspective.

[@bobbymray]

Goody for you. Have a great day.

[@essentiafoundation]

If we would assume ONE Mind at Large, indeed the universe is solipsist, and there we be no God to believe in. So I can see how this is validating your view:)

[@real_pattern]

stop talking with yourself, i'm telling you

[@MutantMessiah]

@@real_pattern, see you get it.

[@divinewind7405]

😂

[@alentjes]

Is the model-less experience not the experience of the Dao? The Dao explained is not the Dao. The Advaita Vedantic Jnanas observing the observer observing the observation seek to know this Modellless model and call it the Self (Capital S). You define it yourself by using the Western term 'Mystical'. The Mystery is a mystery and the Mystery is not an unsolved problem. The problem solving mind hates this letting go, this having to accept an unknowable source. The causal mind cannot fathom a realm beyond causality. The form-seeking mind panics in a fluid space, let alone a void. When we seek to solve It as a problem, the human condition arises. The meditative techniques of the East all point to the ceasing of this mode of approach to the World. And indeed, the state that can be reached is called... Enlightenment. It is pure irony and probably a perfect cultural analogy that the Western use of that term defines the exact opposite. To be honest, when shopping for weekly groceries in a supermarket, being in non-dual non-attachment in formless state of Self non-definition results in no shopping getting done and the family being upset with an empty fridge. So finding a middle path is the way forward. The psychedelic community is definitely the most advanced and realistic community in that respect. Integrative practical mysticism in communion with nature and Self, self, Nothing and All else.

[@whyuconstantlyforget]

🐟

[@thisutuber]

Nixon said "abuse" not "use".

[@thisutuber]

So not war on drgs but on excess.

[@phantomhawk01]

Or the definition of abuse is one that doesn't meet their criteria of what they would deem acceptable usage of said drugs.

[@benhudson4014]

Profound work there man! And you also dig bacteria? Ive found one cool kat here, donation of heartfelt gratitude directed your way or free iboga journey

[@essentiafoundation]

Thanks so much! Yes, apart from fungi I very much like their single celled ancestor. I'm now trying to get my head around it philosophically: the bacterium and origin of life are a metaphor to me of how consciousness somehowe divides/dissociates itself throughout our universe. Much to be explored here! Not familiar with iboga, but thanks for the offer!

[@benhudson4014]

@@essentiafoundation yeah like it's all information and energy , The hermetic law of correspondence in evidence as well perhaps