Defining FLAVOUR in Warhammer 40k - The Liam & Joe Show

[@jamesware3370]

16:59 For me, the definition of flavour in a 40K context is: The army has; -unique lore, -unique appearance in its model range (this includes marine individual chapters’ model range, you should be able to look at an unpainted marine army and know what chapter it is. One of the big push backs, from the community, when primaris started to replace first born was that the chapters were loosing their look of individuality, which I agree with.) -rules that try to reflect the army’s unique lore through the army’s play style -army list building rules that reflect the lore and what an army would actually have access to (i.e.: no multiple captains or warbosses or similar charaters, armies like world eaters and blacktemplars not having access to psykers, and 40% of an army’s model count being battleline models.) That’s flavour in 40K for me.

[@jamesware3370]

14:41 Now I’ll hold up my hands up, I’ve not had a chance to read the warcom article but, for me, when I heard about this I was sad the standard infantry squad was going as (currently) the standard infantry squads for catachan, cadian and Death Korp do not have the option to have a heavy weapon team in them, and currently (and since 2nd edition) the standard guard infantry squad has been a sergeant, 7 guardsmen and a heavy weapon team. If the guard codex does not add in an option for heavy weapons to be taken in catchan, cadian and death korp infantry squads then I believe allot of classics guard players will be disadvantaged as all their battleline units will be made up of 1 sergeant, 7 guardsmen and a heavy weapon team. So now all their squads will be annoyingly 8 man strong rather than 10 man. Also, personally (despite death korp, steal legion and valhallan being my favourite guard regiments lore wise) I currently don’t like the current rules for death korp, why do they get access to more special weapons than a space marine tactical squad? Anyway those are my thoughts on the loss of the standard infantry squad.

[@lightningcreep]

We did a 30player narrative event over 2 days, it was the return to the eye of terror, super detailed with missions that affected the overall campaign and winners and losers getting special stratagem cards. I could send you guys the campaign pack if you want to have look, some very fun games were had.

[@pajmage]

Just saw this video, sadly was working so missed the live otherwise Id have super-chatted. A couple of points to raise though. 1) "Cadia is the standard guard template. Generic Infantry are based on the cadian build" - Not entirely true, What they said is that a lot of Guard regiments raised use cadian style weaponry and armour (i.e. aesthetics) as there are a lot of Cadian regiments and thus a lot of different forgeworlds creating that pattern of equipment so it makes sense for regiments raised on worlds that dont have unique industry to be given that style of equipment. However, that flies in the face of other examples in lore that worlds tend to have wildly different aesthetics of equipment. We know GW have said this because of the limited resources they have (i.e. they cant create a plastic kit of every unit). But that statement only really got bandied about frequently as they moved away from the metal regimental sculpts for Mordian, Valhallan, Vostroyan etc. Because they didn't see the (justifiable imo) value in making plastic kits for every regiment - which is entirely understandable in all honesty. 2) "Use your generic infantry squads as Krieg, Cadian, Catachan" - Ok that's sensible in principle but some of those unit datasheets have equipment that generic infantry squads aren't necessarily compatible with. None of the three regiment specific datasheets allow a heavy weapon in the squad. I have 5 Generic infantry squads each with Missile launcher HWT and a grenade launcher special weapon, so now I need to remove the HWT team from each, leaving me 1.6 Heavy Weapons Squads. And then need to either find 10 more guardsmen to fill the missing models from the other squads, and find more special weapons for said men (or I take them from one squad, going down to 4 and need to convert the vox and sgt into normal infantrymen). If I wanted to use them with Catachan rules then I need to replace both the HWT and the Grenade launchers as the Catachan datasheet only allows flamers (What's in the Box strikes again). It's doable, absolutely, but maybe not as easy as you make it sound. 3) "No one was running Mordians etc as Generic Infantry squads anyway - Maybe, maybe not. I ran my custom 183rd Caledon Rifles using generic infantry squads - it fit their narrative as a city fight regiment nicely - grenades and missile launchers. Now, I absolutely can tweak their narrative sure, but that narrative has existed since 3e 40k and the units were built with legal loadouts from 3e 40k up. I think its disingenuous to make a sweeping statement like that, but I do see where you are coming from. 4) "Now we have an extra unit type one to play with" - We've actually got one fewer - at least in terms of infantry squads. We've gone from Krieg, Cadian, Catachan and Generic in the index to Krieg, Cadian, Catachan in the Codex. As a side note, I think its disappointing that we've got a Cadian Castellan, but not an equivalent for Catachan and Krieg - those only get the command squad. Would it really have been too much to redo the Krieg Watchmaster and add a Catachan Colonel in? I guess its yet another case, like Joe said, of "No model no rules"

[@TheL0rdofCinder]

So my stance on this is I think this comes back to the bloat question. Why have 3 data sheets from the big 3 regiments when you can have 1 then have an army rule where select one rule to effect all models and all the options be based off of regiments. I don’t want to run my Valhallans as cadians or krieg.

[@jamesware3370]

100% agree I thought GW wanted to cut down on the number of data sheets in armies, see the culling of data sheets with the new codex releases. Orks lost most of their named characters and marines lost virtually all their first born units. Also as a dark angel player since 5th Ed I am bitter about the loss of the first born units.

[@nurglematthew]

Certainly certified flavourful

[@Kasrkin88]

The Problem with the loss of the regular Infantry Squad for Guard is that you cannot put heavy weapon teams in sqauds like before.

[@SuperDave915]

All Farseers should have access to Doom/guide/fortune, but can only cast one power per turn. Eldrad should be able to cast 2 powers per turn.

[@MoadikumMoodocks]

I mean, removing the generic infantry and command squads is basically a promise to bring new kits out for all the famous IG sub-factions over the next 5 years - I'm hanging out for Elysians. It's a win win.

[@karlmoore1837]

I wouldn't be in this hobby were it not for the narrative and lore. It is weird and sad as shit that a company will still put out a product that doesn't actually serve it's purpose (codex books). It's a piss take and they need to pull the bandaid off and commit to how they're going to give out rules. It's just not fair on the consumer, new, or otherwise, for this kind of stuff.