Smash Bros. DESIGN Tier List: Smash 64 Newcomers

[@troykv96]

It's funny, Samus and Donkey Kong have compromised movesets, but their playstyle is actually surprisingly accuarate to the kind of stuff you could expect from them. Luigi in the other hand is the opposite, he has the correct moves, but he feels so strangely powerful in the less Luigi way possible.

[@J_pliskin]

Yeah even if Samus and Dk got brand new movesets , their whole playstyle wouldn’t really drastically alter as a result

[@N0SK96]

He’s powerful in a meme way

[@tenshi7751]

Considering fox's design is to platform fighters what ryus is to fighting games as a whole, I feel he was severely underrated here

[@ballisticboo7808]

You're right, spacies are the shotos of platform fighters

[@Shirley4Vaga]

@@ballisticboo7808 imo mario is the shoto of smash he got uppercut fireball and spinning move,

[@ballisticboo7808]

@@Shirley4Vaga that's true but in most other platform fighters, they have a character modeled after fox, much how most 2d fighters have a character modeled after ryu

[@Shirley4Vaga]

@@ballisticboo7808 That makes really sense to be honest ^^

[@matthewmazzatto8003]

@@ballisticboo7808 The Space Animal play-style in Melee heavily influenced platform fighting. Yes, the move-sets for Fox, Falco, and Falcon were all created virtually from scratch, but it hardly matters when the play-styles created have stood the test of time for over 20 years. I think all 3 characters should be in A-Tier at minimum.

[@jaye4521]

I dislike the "every input need to be direct reference" mindset. I'm not saying that they should just pull all of a character's moves out of thin air, but it's more important to me that a character fights in a believable way that makes sense for them and their personality. Mario throwing a few generic punches and kicks while jumping around in a brawl is something I think he'd actually do. Randomly spawning tons of props out of thin air regardless of the actual practicality feels LESS in-character to me. I'm okay with updating old characters to include new material and give them more accurate/up-to-date portrayals, but man, so many fan concepts just completely demolish all of a character's intended playstyle and disregard anything but the number of references they can cram in.

[@Knirfish]

Put in references if it's design from the source material translates naturally into the character's kit while also being a fitting callback, something the character actually does. At the same time, make up moves that *feel* like something the character would do, while again, still fitting the archetype. I'm referring to King K. Rool, who I feel pulls this off exceptionally well. And that's not even getting into the FGCs because, comparative to the rest of the cast, it's much easier to translate them into... Another fighting game.

[@redmage5251]

yeah, the "references over everything" mentality is the only real reason people have issues with DK's moveset

[@yungmuney5903]

​​@@redmage5251 'only real reason'??? Dk is just outdated and boring, where's the barrels? That's like if it was Link but no master sword.

[@redmage5251]

@@yungmuney5903 DK shouldn't just have barrels for the sake of having them, you'd need to actually fit them in his play style, and fitting them into how DK plays in smash is easier said than done

[@TheDukeofDorks]

Oh YES, I've been hoping more people would do things like this, its so much more enjoyable to discuss than balance. And with the same amount and coloration of tiers, this is PERFECT for comparison! Could throw my thoughts out on a few things, but I'll wait to see how the whole Tier List shakes up first, I'm fascinated to see how future games are going to compare! ...though I do find a bit odd logic-wise to knock Luigi down so far citing toxicity as a major factor, only for Ness to follow at the list's summit. Don't get me wrong, disregarding personal tastes as to what I'd want Ness to be, his smash design is one of the most creative on the roster, I can understand the placement in a vacuum. But it's also one of the most hated by players, to a point that matches Luigi's and arguably surpasses him at various levels of play. Don't get me wrong, I still respect the S placement, even it personally feels blasphemous to put him above Falcon. I just felt quite a bit of whiplash from the criteria shifting there.

[@plasmacrowcodile9145]

@@andrebabani7152 I could argue that "one note" can easily translate to "boring" which would make his definition of "toxic" come off as "You know exactly how this match is gonna go, and it ain't fun one bit and won't even be that much of a spectacle."

[@Alexrun902]

Fair points on Ness being toxic, he really is, but when Del was describing how Luigi is toxic, he means so in a different way to Ness. See, while Ness has extraordinary tools to succeed in low and mid level play in unfair ways with his infamous "PK Fire" and Yo yo, once you get better at the game and start fighting players who are better than you, you start dropping those older unfair strats and use better more effective tools to succeed. Nesses in Top 64 of tournaments are very different from your topical Elite Smash Nesses. Let's just say. However, Luigi, on the other hand, doesn't have better tools or strategies to rely on as you get better at the game. His best and only way to win in higher levels of play is to rely on toxic, cheesy, unfair, 0 to death combos. Which is exactly why Luigi belongs in F tier. TLDR; Nesses toxicity is a result of bad players abusing their tools in unfair ways, and Luigi's toxicity is a result of abusing bad game design in your favor.

[@MechaZyko]

Love the video definitely looking forward to the future of this. Only alittle bothered by the luigi judgement sure his play style and what wins games might be "toxic" but the animations and personality luigi has is there. His the underdog younger sibling that is in the shadow of mr videogame himself, the second banana to a serious gogetter which is why his personality being the loving bro that watches a garden or is spooked by a light breeze that makes the floor boards creek would pertain to an awkward fighter that has tons of unorthodox moves like the first taunt to do damage in the smash series.

[@erickmaverick3128]

I'd appreciate it if you do more tier list videos like these for future Smash games.

[@SharonisCarin321]

Why can't I comment on your videos?

[@DjoingDalton]

Oh boi it's the "who's possibly up next for the redesigning series" tier list.

[@jaredhebert942]

Excited to see how everyone shakes out over Delzethin's videos compared to the Design Dorks Smash Design Tierlist

[@Lukkak09]

This one is focused on fighting game design while Dukes is more focused on how characters represent their games.

[@TJ-Henry-Yoshi]

Pyrr and Design Dork's tierlist was one of my favorite things I ever came across. I'm glad to know other people also watched it

[@Lukkak09]

@@TJ-Henry-Yoshi Agree that channel is really fun.

[@jaredhebert942]

@@TJ-Henry-Yoshi It's an honor to receive a reply, and thank you for your contributions!

[@Lukkak09]

@@jaredhebert942 Getting noticed by a creator you love is a great feeling. Happened to me 2 days ago when Duke of Dorks covered my idea for Angry Birds in Smash.

[@franciscomendez8314]

Honestly, it's really funny how the most unknown character of the Original 12 is also the best designed, since Ness' moveset best represents his series

[@MagillanicaLouM]

I'm positive Mother series is one of Sakurai's or someone who works on smash's favorites. There's a lot of details even from Mother 1 despite no character from that game that no one who didn't have extensive knowledge on the series would ever think to include. Probably helps that the series and obviously Itoi's reputation are a lot bigger in Japan.

[@franciscomendez8314]

@@MagillanicaLouM It was most likely Iwata, since he and Itoi became really good friends during EarthBound's development. Its gotten to the point where Iwata has named dropped EarthBound at video game conferences (clip for reference: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pmS4iIajasl-f9k), you know the cult classic RPG that released in the 90s that did poorly in the US. Probably reason for his inclusion in Smash.

[@Magic_Ice]

i do find it odd he placed Luigi in F for being Toxic but then put Ness in S

[@christianshark6678]

While I do agree with most of this, I disagree on Luigi. He'd definitely be near the middle of the tiers rather than anywhere close to the bottom. To me, his goofy & under confident nature does come off in a lot of his attacks. And while a lot of moves were made up for Luigi, I'd never say any of them go against his character. This & Luigi's Mansion are what DEFINED his personality for every appearance after: a character who's on par with or even better than his brother at certain tasks, but his scaredy cat nature & lack of confidence hold him back. To me this makes his moveset a perfect fit. It's less effective than Mario in some areas, but other areas he shines. Plus he doesn't have the no updates to his moveset problem a lot of the 64 cast has. They didn't need to change his grab in Ultimate but it made him feel even more like Luigi.

[@amaze_z1953]

Having a true 0 death is not a good design 💀

[@benJAMMIN634]

@@amaze_z1953 it’s called a grappler. All fighting games have them.

[@ronochyrule6707]

@@benJAMMIN634 Being a grappler and having a zero-death aren't the same. Yes, grapplers are known for having destructive combos but those are reliant on pushing the opponent back and cornering them to make them pick panic options to be capitalized on. But they can't kill you from one combo right when the game says go. Sure top players in any game could kill you off of the first interaction, but it would be more like neutral win into combo into mix up into combo into corner into mix up into destructive combo. Luigi's combo is more like Brawl's chain grabbing, where you get grabbed you loose, at least when you are at 0%.

[@matthewmazzatto8003]

@@benJAMMIN634 But Luigi really shouldn't be a grappler. He should be based around his funky movement instead, but his air speed is 2nd worst in the game and his wavedash is almost non-existent in Ultimate due to the increased traction.

[@MagillanicaLouM]

I agree. Might be annoying competitively but as far as "staying true to the character" goes, he's pretty great. Personally I say that matters as much if not more.

[@nicholaskonkle4841]

Based on this, we should see “Remake It” episodes on Kirby, Luigi, and Jigglypuff. Maybe Pikachu as well, but that would be a pretty short video.

[@jaredhebert942]

I could see Del have the other low-tiers be a double- or triple-feature

[@nicholaskonkle4841]

@@jaredhebert942 Yeah, that’s a good idea I could see him do in the future

[@Pika250]

Indeed, the Pokémon have picked up some egg moves, which have since become more like "picnic moves" as of Scarlet and Violet. I'm looking at you, Fake Out on Pikachu and Pichu!

[@Liggliluff]

(16:10) It is said that "dragon king" (竜王) is a literal translation of the city name Sakurai is from / worked from. Imagine a developer from Stockholm making a game called "Stockholm - krigsspelet" and it being translated as "Log Islet: The War Game", that would be ridiculous.

[@teveloakes8851]

For Jigglypuff, I'd recommend Disarming Voice. It's a Fairy-type, sound-based move. Solving both of these source material updates in one go.

[@Sean_Bird]

Disarming Voice is definitely a great pick for a new move for Jigglypuff, I'd probably put it on the Neutral Special, since basically anything would be better then Rollout.

[@Lexicon865]

While I agree with the tier list, I still think that most of these characters (except Ness, outside of maybe some aesthetic changes) still should have significant changes in moveset. And while I get being worried of completely changing their playstyle, I feel like unless people outright give them the craziest stuff, wouldn't change their playstyle too much. Would argue some character SHOULD have a change in their playstyle, such as Ganondorf and Sonic imo Among the list, Mario personally I wish had way more references to his power-ups, which I don't think is crazy. Unless people's first thought of that is having Mario summon power-ups as a Special, which is absurd, then I don't think it should be that wild. I feel that a good few of Mario's moves are fine like say his Jab, D-Tilt, Throws, Super Jump Punch and Fireball among others, but some I wish could be different. Cappy being his Side B and serving as both a long range "projectile" that can also bounce projectiles. Aerials maybe being his Galaxy Spin or Tanooki Tail as his Neutral and Back Airs that are more interesting visually, but not too wild. Others like Link and Fox are fine. I think Fox is fine with Falco and Wolf needing changes. As for Link, as every Smash game changes Link incarnations, I think they should either stick to one and base a moveset from that specifically, or tweak his current kit a bit. Samus, DK and Luigi outright needs overhauls yeah, and idc about their current playstyles they need to change since Samus and DK feel somewhat clunky, while Luigi just isn't the same green plumber you see in the Mario series

[@donaldjgumpofficial5754]

I think an easy way of adding references is changing throw animations while simultaneously keeping their effect the same so as to both appease fans while not actually changing the moveset. Mario for example could get a hammer in one of his throw animations(fthrow perhaps) where he just whacks the opponent away. Preferably, he'd use it on an actual move(back air or up smash would be my choices) but it'd at least be an improvement on the generic throw. Kirby especially could benefit from this as you could have 3 or 4 copy ability related throw moves.

[@ineedbootlacestobeready8521]

True, Mario not having a hammer based attack is CRIMINAL, but aren’t all Kirby’s throws based on the suplex ability after you grab an enemy?

[@ballisticboo7808]

@@ineedbootlacestobeready8521 every kirby throw is based on suplex except up throw, which is from ninja

[@eem2wavy133]

Disagree sonic being a bait and punish character is fine. Just give sonic more approaching options so the sonic player doesn’t camp as often

[@captainmega6310]

Why do people want Mario to have a hammer for? What's the significance? Isn't it already an item

[@mushroomfusion245]

Delzethin: Luigi has touch of deaths, so he’s the worst designed character from Smash 64. Also Delzethin: Ness’s moveset has aged perfectly!

[@denzeltheeternalunderstudy2858]

This is a really good tier list idea. Looking forward for the melee newcomers

[@Neutra77]

9:27 Yes please, I've been waiting for Kirby to get a Remake It! ever since you started making them.

[@Shirley4Vaga]

One thing I think you could have mentioned is that Mario in a way is designed to be the typical Ryu of smash . He got the uppercut, he got fireball, he got a spinning move

[@MagillanicaLouM]

The actual Ryu in smash: what am I, chopped liver? I get you're talking about before then though lol

[@Neoxon619]

@@MagillanicaLouM That actually goes back to what I mentioned in my own comment. When someone else fills the role of the starter character, Ryu is allowed to be more interesting. We’re seeing this in Street Fighter 6 with Luke taking the starting character position.

[@blocks4857]

He's not. Stop trying to fit him in the archetype

[@yoshiyo660]

Big disagree on Pikachu. Sure, there is definitely new source material they could pull from, but like Mario, his core design is so fitting for his character and doesn't necessarily need the new, latest innovations in the series. He certainly has enough moves to cover his Electric type, and his playstyle fits him so well: a speedy character with electrical power not to be underestimated, but frail (low defense stats in the games). You have to rely on the character's speed, with moves like quick attack, while still making good use of his electric-based projectile in thunder jolt. I would give him A at least. Other than that, I'm loving this tier list. Can't wait to see part 2!

[@midnightarcanacentraltv5815]

Actually Yoshi’s Egg Roll is based off a move in Yoshi’s Story. Other than that, great video!

[@bulletcola7890]

I would prefer Jigglypuff in B or A rather than where you placed them at, even if its due to representation. Her moveset is not only iconic, but it establishes them as an aerial based fighter who focuses on bait-n--punish trades as they constantly go around their opponents toes, either walling them with aerials or finding a good read. It plays around the aerial mechanics Smash presents in a heavily movement based fighter, and establishes a rather unique playstyle that generally works. Although balancing wise, they have been under the rader past melee.

[@SheezyBites]

Jigglypuff gets D entirely on how well it works in Melee, as a representation of Jigglypuff it is the exact opposite! The Jigglypuff line is about high HP and status and later wish support; she stays in the game because her move set plays with the aerial nature, and should be a different character (in the Ganondorf should be Black Shadow kind of way), maybe if they had time for Smash 64 they could've made it a Duck from Duck Hunt (I mean, getting shot from offscreen makes so much more sense for what that move is than Rest, and if we're talking about Nintendo characters who dodge you in the air and bait you to shoot before flying away it's the duck, that's literally their whole thing; of course they don't attack, but this is Smash, they kind of have to)... but nowadays it's just kinda stuck. I don't really want to see the moveset go, but it shouldn't be Jigglypuff doing it!.. which is of course one of the major weaknesses of Smash, there's massive holes in the roster because they have to be something Nintendo wants to push or videogame legends (or Joker from Persona 5), but it obviously makes more money so we're stuck with it until someone makes a Smash Clone that sticks.

[@captainmega6310]

@@SheezyBites it's also very light and is literally "The Balloon Pokemon"

[@SheezyBites]

@@captainmega6310 It's only 8% lighter than Pikachu, but even if she was 8% lighter rather than 20% as in Smash she'd still not be in keeping with her established play style. If they wanted her lighter for Pokédex reasons they would have to give her more survivability another way to feel true to Jigglypuff. And honestly the Pokédex argument is kind of nonsense because Mario plays by jumping like his games not with a plumbing based moveset, why should Pokémon be different?

[@captainmega6310]

@SheezyBites ignoring the weird comparison to Mario, I really doesn't matter what pokemon's playstyles are in the games because they already in fundamentally different game then pokemon, you know? As well as it gets bare minimum it's fine rep

[@SheezyBites]

@@captainmega6310 They're still games about fighting, and have a pretty well established way they do fight. How Villager fights is up for interpretation, but Pokémon is pretty clear.

[@Sean_Bird]

Had a feeling the Tier List video would end up something like this. Can't say I'm not interested, though. I do hope you do a Remake It on Kirby. I agree that not every move in his kit needs a super obvious reference, though I think the smash attacks would be a good place for more Copy Abilities. I do think his moveset just needs a more interesting touch-up, though. I think his tilts and aerials need a little more spice so he isn't just kicking the opponent for 90% of every match, and he could use certainly more effective Up, Side, and Down specials. I'm of the opinion the Iron Tail should be Pikachu's side special, as sort of a Tatsu kind of attack, with a second strike that's able to angled up or down. It's a pretty notable attack for Pikachu, considering he has it even in the Pokepark games, so I think they should have it on an important slot. As for the overall tier list so far, I'd say I agree with most of it, but I would definitely put Captain Falcon higher if I had to change anything.

[@justinjyeung]

18:10 About joke characters fighting with cheese, or rather, being unexpectedly powerful...I think that might actually be a trope. Think about the fan or Mr. Saturn, usually weak, gag-like items, that can unexpectedly break your shield! Guess that's just a thing

[@mushroomfusion245]

You were WAY too harsh on Luigi simply for having touch of deaths. Every character in Smash has some jank to them, and singling Luigi out makes me feel like it’s more about how much you like fighting against that character online rather than their moveset design.

[@bilis2866]

the anime, the card games and the video games retroactively influence one another so there is nothing wrong with pulling from those sources, heck many tcg moves make it to the games over time

[@SonicTheCutehog]

Not every character has to be exactly like how they play in their games. Characters like Min Min, Steve, and Kazuya are examples of what happens if you make characters play exactly like their game in Smash.

[@Lexicon865]

And they're pretty fun and make the game more exciting. Dunno bout Min Min, but I get that feeling for Steve and Kazuya. Some tweaks here and there to make them less absurd in some aspects but conceptually they're fine as is and arguably with every fighter in the roster should be

[@redmage5251]

@@Lexicon865 "more exciting" "steve"

[@JuanCarlos-vq1cj]

@@Lexicon865the most exciting thing a Steve main can do is k1LL themselves 😊

[@blocks4857]

The issue is they're overtuned.

[@tardissins7512]

Yoshi with a single dragon wing flap for an up special would be neat!

[@bilis2866]

jigglypuff is perfectly represented, she already has sing and thats the only sound move that actually represents her well, the only thing i would change is the final smash maybe she should draw in everyone's faces like in the anime

[@KingofBeasts444]

Pikachu's Final Smash definitely should be updated to Ash's Z-move 10,000,000 bolts. Directly give Ash a cameo too. He's already had a couple indirect ones.

[@massimodalessandro108]

This was very fun!! Would love to see this same concept for Melee and Brawl characters (Sonic's analysis should be fun ahahah)

[@Surgemaster2012]

With Luigi I'm so surprised that they barely did anything with him, considering he's one they could do the most with out of the base twelve. I think Luigi's moveset made sense in Smash 64 because back then the idea of Luigi was just the player 2 to Mario, there were hints of his underdog status here and there, but didn't become as pronounced. By Brawl he should've Blossomed entirely, considering even back then they had a lot to go with. I think if they want to take RPG aspects from Mario games and rep it into a character Luigi would be the biggest contender for that, considering Luigi is the funniest and one of the most fledged out characters in the RPG Mario titles, why else did him and Bowser get games within those series that featured them in the title? (Dream Team and Bowser's Inside Story) because they were the breakout characters of those games. Luigi could take rep there, or even his various abilities from Luigi's Mansion, y'know his own series? Instead of making the only rep he has being a grab and final smash.

[@DefinitivNichtSascha]

I've said it countless times and I'll say it again: Give Mario some bloody hammer-moves. I'll concede that loading up his moveset with references maybe isn't all that feasable since he regularly gets so many new games, and unlike Link, there aren't several incarnations of Mario (we don't talk about Doc). But my word he's used a hammer ever since Donkey Kong and it's his go-to weapon in every single RPG. I'm probably in the minority with this (well, it at least appears so), but in my mind, Mario's hammer is his second-most iconic ability after jumping. I'll disagree on Kirby. The Copy Ability is his thing, and most of his kit being made-up kicks just feels kind of uninspired. I'm not saying that all of his moves need to be replaced with ability moves, since, as you said, some of it stems from Fighter Kirby, but I don't feel that the whimsical nature of the character comes through enough. Even still, not even stuff that base Kirby can do is in his moveset, such as the Slide Kick and Air Bullet. While I don't particularly have anything against Luigi, I definitely see your angle. His specials are all made up tweaks to Mario's. Nowadays, Luigi has more to pull from. I think his Up-Special especially is in need of a rework that fits his signature amazing jumping ability. Concretely, I would opt to make it chargable like in Super Mario Bros. 2 and Super Paper Mario, allowing him to reach enormous heights at full charge. I see a lot of people wanting more of a Luigi's Mansion-influence in his kit, I certainly don't think he deos not need to be based around that. Yes, it's the series where he is the protagonist, but Luigi's other appearances simply outweigh that. Unlike Wario and Yoshi (and also DK), who can have series that are a bit more distanced from from Mario, this does not work with Luigi. This is not saying that it has no room in his moveset. I quite like the concept of Ultimate's grab and wouldn't be against him using the Poltergust in like maybe a Down-Special (it'd be at least be more fitting than F.L.U.D.D. for Mario). Also, the hammer thing with Mario applies to Luigi to a certain extent as well.

[@djdjinn6340]

100% agree! I wanna see what you have to say about the Melee fighters. That's when design choices started to 'feel wrong'.

[@rubyrogers8879]

Tbh my problem with Kirby is just that he...doesn't really fight like Kirby imo, when I think of Kirby fighting...I don't think of a guy who kicks a lot. I'd personally change his smash attacks, his aerials are fine and his tilts I'd change his down tilt to a slide. I know he doesn't have to be like Mega Man but it's weird that a series about using different abilities...is very rarely doing that while the other is doing it just fine. It's so weird since...only 3 of his moves are from fighter and the rest are boring

[@hambughrr8186]

I would bump Pikachu up to A-Tier, since pancaking is my only problem with it. Otherwise, it is a great representation of both an in-game Pikachu and an anime Pikachu that still holds up well to this day! Delivery matters, and the devs making Pikachu feel like its anime counterpart despite not actually being Ash's Pikachu makes its kit feel far more inspired than it would otherwise be, and it helps Pikachu age way better than most pre-Brawl veterans. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I've said many times before that Samus is stuck in 1986, while most veterans from Brawl onwards feel fresh. I also think most of the OG12 has aged better than Samus, hell, even DK, a character who doesn't have his trademark barrels still feels more fresh! Samus in Smash is unusually floaty, has a Frame 4 Up B OoS despite being a zoner, and is weirdly good at fighting up close. Samus also feels underwhelming in terms of delivery, since many of her cannon-based normals have no oomph to them, despite it being her primary weapon. To make things even worse, games like Samus Returns and Dread feature cannon-based melee attacks like the Dash Melee and Melee Counter that pack way more oomph than her current cannon-based normals. Really makes me wonder...

[@martooncdj-martooncartoons490]

Personnaly, here's what I would change among the original Smash Bros fighters (without DK or Samus because everything that could be had, you talked about them in your Remake It Videos so...) : Mario: -make his Down Air a neutral air, but make it single hit instead of a multi hit and give Mario a Stomping down air, considering Mario has codified the jump to beat an aneemy in the platformer, I'm surprised he has no references to that in this moveset. Although, I would imagine we would need to tweak his stats a bit, I don't know how broken having 2 spikes on one of the most balanced fighters in the roster would be... Also, when not using Cappy for the Up Special, I want the cap to have the Wings from Super Mario 64's Winged Cap. Link:It's complicated because each smash games is a potential chance for him to change on a few aspect to fit the latest game and that bothers me more it probably should, personnaly, and Link's moveset as it is fine, it's even my favorite to what he has been in the 3 smash games I've played (from Brawl to Ultimate)... I wonder if revamping Young Link to make him more about classic Zelda gameplay and make Link the BOTW champion by default would help, but that has nothing to do for the movesets. Yoshi: I like his moveset as it is but I have to admit, I like the idea making the Up B as a Side B, probably fits better, although, I don't have a good idea for a replacement for the Up B. The fittest is Wing Yoshi technically but the idea just sound boring to me. maybe You could take advantage the Side B being potentially based on the Yoshi's Story egg lunge by making it a quick bouce with a uppercut like trajectory, and to make it more unique, give the flutter jump's armor to it instead. Kirby: I guess the changes should be more stats wise indeed, otherwise, I would only try to have changes toward how the specials work. I do want the smash attacks to have more unique animations, like the forward smash looking more like the Spin Kick and down smash either based upon his former dash attack (minus the momentum) or the Megaton Punch. Fox: I got nothing. Pikachu: beyond your Ideas here, I always wanted a Thunderbolt reference but I don't know to include it properelly... 1st Option: swap Thunder Jolt and Thunder, and make Thunder into Thunder Bolt By reducing it's range or power. 2nd Option: Make it a final smash were Piakchu is joined by other Pikachu's Heck, even try to include things like the other contest Pikachu, all the Pikaclones, even Gigantamaxed Pikachu If you liked it, for Pikachu to perform 10 000 000 Volt Thunderbolt Luigi: A Poltergust comand grab would be fine, but I'm more interested in what your take on him would be, a future subject for Remake It perhaps ? Ness: I know Ness Using the elemental PSI attacks is nothing in the big picture... But still, I would want the specials to be based upon PSI attacks he actually used. But I'm still trying to find ways for them to work. Cpt falcon: I Got Nothing. Jigglypuff: There is so much things I would like to change. A Rapid jab based on Double Slap. make Pound a Side Smash, a new down smash based on gyroball. Make Sing the Neutral B, Rollout the side B, a new final smash based upon Hyper Voice, a fairy type move somewhere like a dazzling gleam up smash, or Charming voice somewhere, maybe have Jiggly sings a note conjuring a heart in front them as side tilt as well as for other tilts and aerials, heck why not not a Up Special even ? (afterall, Love gives wings). So much for the puff, I can't choose XS.

[@bulletcola7890]

I feel like the title is a bit misleading to what the video is trying to represent, because when I see the word "design", I initially thought you mean as in a characters kit gameplay, how well the moves flow with one another, how it establishes a playstyle that fits with the games mechanics, how it promotes how you play the game, if the kit isnt in "Its either OP or awful, no inbetween" state, etc. Sure, you established said criteria's, but I feel like representation of a character's narrative in moveset form, and gameplay design, are two different things. Maybe its just me, and Im looking at this the wrong way.

[@lorenzomartinelli7665]

I have strong opinions on most of the original 12, so let me share some of them: MARIO: Mario's my main, in part because he's my favorite gaming character ever. However, he is rather disappointing as far as his Smash depiction goes, mainly because... I feel that he is not that geared towards newcomers. What I mean is that he has four moves that clearly aren't basic at all: forward aerial should send you forward rather than downward, down aerial should be a spike and Cape and FLUDD are just weird moves that new players might not be able to immediately understand how to use. Also, he misses the hammer for his side smash but it is not my main problem with the red mustache'd plumber. DK: agree with you. LINK: here comes an unpopular opinion but... I feel that SSBU Link is in that sort of weird middle ground where he wants to be a generalist Link while also trying his best to be strongly associated with BotW. As for the "main" Link, I'd want him to be mostly based on his more traditional incarnations, like OoT or even TP. In a nutshell, it shouldn't be Link who gets his moveset overhauled to be different from Young Link and Toon Link, but the other way around. SAMUS: agree with you. YOSHI: again, I agree with you. There are a couple of moves here and there that feel somewhat odd (like forward smash or Egg Roll), but the core of the character was done right. KIRBY: I mean, I am among those who think that Kirby's moveset should use his copy abilities for regular attacks so yeah, there's that. Other than this, Kirby can be seen as a beginner-friendly character, but I think that newcomers should be taught that, in Smash, you will use fighters whose movement abilities are vastly different, so Kirby's weak ground movement actually makes somewhat sense and is kind of a foil to Yoshi. As far as his range goes, well, copy abilities... FOX: yeah, Fox could use a bit of a rework. However, I think that his normals are fine. As for his specials, I've seen some interpretations that use Assault's multiplayer as basis, but I'd rather stick with a more generic approach, like give for a jetpack recovery that references the Arwing altogether and such. I'm no expert of Star Fox, though. PIKACHU: so I feel that, right now, Pikachu actually only misses two moves: a replacement for its neutral special and Surf. As for his neutral special, I'd pick Thunder Wave. It could just be a name change (after all, Pikachu's jolt of electricity kinda looks like a wave...) or be completely replaced by the Smash 4 custom move with the same name. As for Surf, it is too big of a part of Pikachu not to be included: make it its side special and we're good. LUIGI: EXTREMELY unpopular opinion incoming, but Luigi... should be a clone of Mario. I mean, Luigi's purpose in the Super Mario series is to be a clone of Mario! Heck, it was even referenced by Mr. Sakurai himself while showcasing Ken! He could be the poster child for clones, making it clear that, in Smash, there might be Echo Fighters. Make him a lighter, faster version of Mario with weaker attacks, but keep some of his whacky sweetspots (though not as strong as they currently are) to show that Luigi does have some hidden capabilities his brother actually lack. As for the Luigi's Mansion series, I'd only reference it in a couple or three moves, not more than that. NESS: I mean, nowadays what keeps Ness from being more faithful to his original appearance? Why not replace PK Fire with Paralysis or Barrier? He'd make for a cool take on the zoner character, as a more defensive version of the archetype. However, I'm not mad at all at his moveset, and I feel that he could still stay the same. After all, Ness already feels very unique in a good way right now. CAPTAIN FALCON: suggesting changes here feels like blasphemy, but I promise these are small ones. Number 1: replace the electric effect used with the Knee of Justice with fire and Number 2: give him blue flames. Then we're good. JIGGLYPUFF: her moveset is fine actually, I don't really want a overhaul with Fairy-type moves or Hyper Voice or who knows. I feel that Sing is, right now, the only sound-based move she needs. That doesn't mean I don't want to replace Rollout though: give her Bounce, like PJiggles suggested in a MockRock video and we're good. I would have never anticipated that Yoshi, of all characters, was the one I'd consider to have the best design out of the original 12...

[@bodgmasterxionobst3r983]

The only Smash fighters that can't be changed (or can't be changed for now) are: Game And Watch Ice Climbers R.O.B Fox, Falco, Wolf (Tho you could change some moves to moves from assault, that would be intresting) Duck Hunt Captain Falcon Kazuya (pretty good representation, tho with Tekken 8 he could change idk) Terry Bogard (same as Kazuya I already think the moveset is good enough, and honestly that's the same way I feel about Ken / Ryu) Wii Fit Trainer (The only thing I would add is a Wii balance board lol) (Also not counting Miis because they are flexible fighters and all of their moves are made up) Dr Mario

[@heehomgee4671]

I'm looking forward to the future of this series, seems really fun! But... I do have to disagree with Samus's placement I'd say B, C or at least D over the E rank she has right now.

[@KrissyBlues]

I feel like letting Luigi's viability dictate where he wound up on the list was a pretty big mistake that drastically undersold how fitting his kit is for the character just because it makes people salty. Over the years Luigi's design has changed and evolved into really embodying the character in a very unique way, and I wouldn't necessarily change anything of its core. Also, I know this is a hot take within the smash community but I feel like improvised movesets that still fit the character's personality are completely fine to have, and if anything the newer games' extreme focus on directly copying over mechanics and abilities from the source material makes it feel less like playing a character and more like playing a reference to another game at times. Fox in particular I feel wouldn't be even the slightest bit better from copying more from his games because his smash moveset already fits the character very well. Same for Wolf, although I feel like Falco could use a bit more to differentiate himself from Fox. (Kicking his reflector fits him pretty well, but I think they should lean even harder into an aerial and aggressive focus for him)

[@Rattlehead2Deth]

For me, ranking these depends entirely on if it's the legacy of 64 onward, how good they've been throughout the years, or if we can judge them off their peaks, which may or may not have passed. For instance, Ness is trash in 64 and Melee, though I guess that's more a balance thing as opposed to design. But like... Captain Falcon's design hasn't changed too much over time, and Melee Falcon is an absolute 10/10, but he's been off the mark since then, mostly attributable to the games' universal mechanics. There's also the power of hindsight. Samus' design was pretty good in 64, but especially in a world where Metroid Dread has come and gone, it makes her feel antiquated. But Smash has seemingly never had time for comprehensive reworks. Even Links' BotW-ification is pretty tame. It's mooostly changing his bombs and removing the hookshot. Picking up arrows is very close to nothing, as is reverting the gale boomerang to a normal one, since that was a thing in 64 and Melee. With all that being said, I'll give it a try, kind of taking everything into account, but judging them mostly off their peaks, especially if their peaks are in Melee or Ultimate. S: Captain Falcon, Fox (Both improvised, and two of the most iconic movesets in the series) A: Ness, Mario, Yoshi, Link B: Pikachu, DK, Kirby C: Luigi D: Samus F: Jigglypuff (Also improvised mostly, but aggressively lame, and a complete waste of a roster spot in my eyes.)

[@2-Way_Intersection]

idea for a new yoshi up b: shell shot on the ground: yoshi eats and spits out a green koopa shell. in the air: same but with a blue shell, giving yoshi wings and a similar up-b to isabelle/villager. once yoshi lands/runs out of flaps, he spits the shell back out same as before

[@GB6__YT]

Love this - would love to see some of the lower-tier characters in the remake it! Series.

[@GB6__YT]

Just saw part 2 of this and forgot I watched part 1 so I will be rewatching!!!!

[@monsterhunterdude569]

I think Kirby deserves a bigger change then a few changes to work anywhere higher than very low level as well as sticking out. To me he feels like a slow and somehow less versatile Mario. Not to mention he has some of the worst set of specials that are not only dated but the worst of their kind. I do see the appeal of Kirby being simple but the complexity of Kirby's abilities as well as just how deep of an arsenal he canonically has over many other characters doesn't put a more nuance one out of the picture. Finally I think Kirby should be a slower character but he should have the tools to help him approach or at least get foes to do so. He has the right tools in his own game but smash restricts his move variety even more than Ganondorf.

[@chronogames9072]

I agree with most of the stuff here, though i feel like Link could've gotten a few more changes... there's a Rivals of Aether workshop BoTW Link character which is essentially perfect at representing BoTW while still feeling like Smash Link in some Way (He uses spears for his forward and up strong, spin attack is down strong and up special is his glider from botw instead... there's other changes too but it's quite a bit so i won't list them here). He's more of a rushdown swordie there though so perhaps mixing some ideas from that moveset with the original smash link could be a good call, who knows. Very good video though, i can't wait to see more!

[@kingnewcomer2029]

Well, I can't say I was expecting a Smash Top Tier List to be your first video of 2023, Delzethin, but I'm not complaining! XD This has definitely been an interesting, and fun take on the usual Smash Tier List video! I enjoyed hearing your thoughts, and opinions on the original dozen Smash 64 fighters, and how well/not so well they've held up almost a quarter-century later (god, I'm OLD)! I was actually surprised that every Rank got at least 1 fighter. I kinda disagree with you on Mario, and Link though as while I understand that we don't wanna alternate their movesets too much as to not alienate any of their current players especially with the former since he's meant to serve as the tutorial guide for newcomers, however, I don't think adding a FEW touchups would hurt like maybe replacing Mario's Cape with Tail Mario since it hasn't been in a mainline Mario game in a very long time (not counting the Maker series), but would still have the same reflect ability like with the Cape, besides Tail Mario is just way cuter than a boring cape anyway (I do not hate the Cape ability at all, I just think it's a bit dated), and perhaps a handful of things like Mario's Front Smash animation would be a carry over from his Fire charging one from Mario & Luigi RPG: Superstar Saga, both that, and the end result when he's done charging (or nearly done), and, that's probably about it. meanwhile, Link could perhaps use his Parasail as his recovery instead of his On-Screen Appearance, with his teleportation from Breath Of The Wild being its replacement instead. I love my boy Donkey, but MAN, it sucks that his Moveset hasn't bothered since Deluxe, and from every game onward it started showing its age more, and more, same with Samus (good thing you've already made a "Remake It!" video for both of them). I do overall love Yoshi as is, I just wish that several of his previous attacks weren't replaced with kicks, his Up-Killing Art was his Front-Killing Art as opposed to that random made up one, with a brand new recovery, his double-jump didn't go so high, and that his Last Trump Card brought back his Super Dragon as I never liked that it was replaced with a few-seconds reference. It truly is a shame that Luigi to this day has not only never been true to character, but he's also become some of the most hated fighter ever. All the weirdness would feel way better suited for Waluigi. It's pretty damn odd that despite the Pocket Monster franchise being 2-half decades old, Pikachu, and especially Purin haven't adapted much from their source material, I mean, you'd THINK with the recent Fairy Type they'd give Purin some Fairy moves in replacement to some of its not so good ones. Hopefully, IF there is a next Smash installment maybe these issues could be addressed (provided if Fox McCloud, Ness, Captain Falcon are still around since they haven't appeared in a non-Smash game in a very long time). I hope you'll continue this into a series, and if it does continue, I can't wait for your next video featuring the 14 Deluxe cast! :D Amazing video once again! Even felt some nostalgic vibes too! Love that you even used the 64 announcer countdown, as well as the North American Smash 64 "SMASH" logo in the thumbnail, that's awesome!

[@smashbronikko]

I think a good change for Kirby would be this idea I got from someone. This one might be a bit controversial, but I think it would help Kirby a lot. Instead of copying the neutral special of the other fighters, he gets a copy ability from his home series. Basically if I remember correctly, the idea is that all of his specials get replaced and fighters are set into categories of who gives Kirby what. A lot of people probably don't like this idea, but I do think it would give Kirby's signature move more utility.

[@brandonbaggaley2317]

In terms of as a character and not stats and movesets, Young Link would count as one of the original twelve because he is Ocarina of Time Link. Also, straight up replacing Twilight Princess Link with BotW Link makes the “Everyone is Here” line in the advertising a big fat lie. Twilight Princess and BotW are separated in terms of the Zelda timeline by over ten millennia if its official placement is the child timeline. Twilight Princess Link is not the same character as BotW Link due to said 10,000 year gap. Why didn’t they make BotW Link an Echo Fighter and introduce the Wolf Link transformation for Twilight Princess Link as an excuse to include Midna into the roster? Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess Zeldas could have simply been alternate renders like with Shulk’s underwear alt or shirtless Sephiroth. Without those three in the playable roster as themselves and not as color swaps, the “Everyone is Here” line isn’t true. On another note, Smash 4’s Fierce Deity alt looks better than Smash Ultimate’s.

[@thedapperdolphin1590]

One idea I like for Jigglypuff is replacing her neutral special with bounce, which she can learn in modern games. Using it on the ground would cause he to quickly bounce into the air, and using it in the air would cause her to quickly go to the ground. It would help with air speed and getting back on the ground.

[@waffleman8053]

Ultimate Luigi is probably my least favorite version of him in the series, but F tier is pretty harsh.

[@metaknightjudgesyoursins4710]

Oooooooh i cannot *WAIT* till we get to Sonic and Ganon.

[@SB2749]

I think you were pretty harsh on Luigi. Even if from a balance perspective he's pretty bad his moveset is still fairly in-character, as a slightly whimsical and tryhard-ish version of Mario's and even having his grab changed to give him his Poltergust. He's arguably more accurate to his canon personality than his own brother. Also THANK YOU for agreeing Kirby shouldn't be a Mega Man-esque reference fest. Kirby having simple regular attacks is perfectly fine and fits his games' core philosophy. In my opinion a best-case scenario for a Kirby rework is keeping all the ability moves where he materializes something from thin air for smash attacks and specials. He does not need to spit ice or swing the Star Rod for a forward tilt. As a matter of fact I helped on a Rivals of Aether mod that did this: all of Kirby's tilts and aerials are the same as Smash(minus down tilt which is the slide kick, and dash attack is the Break Spin move from Yo-Yo ability which was his DA back in Brawl and SSB4). We only changed his smash attacks and specials except Inhale and Stone.

[@CJOluigi]

Someones salty about Luigi 13:40

[@Raguler]

If Mario were released today as a new fighter, He'd probably have a coin counter and a down special that changes his power up state.

[@SnailMakesMusicNot]

I mostly agree with Kirby, I do think that he doesn't need every single move to be a copy ability, but I think at least his smash attacks should be more than generic kick attacks. His down air would also work really well as the tornado ability and its honestly a crime that his down tilt isn't the downwards sliding attack from his games

[@BroskiPlays]

You are too harsh towards some characters, they are all still great fighters designwise despite their shortcomings

[@hyperdense8589]

Guy who likes redesigning here, evaluating the tier list. Mario: I get the point about keeping Mario as a basic character, but he can still be flavorful while getting across the main idea of the game. It’s just as simple as animation changes and some differences in hurtboxes. I’ve redesigned this character before, and several of his moves (jab, back throw, every special but up) remain the exact same, while some (down tilt, dash attack) just use different animations to better represent different games. I made forward tilt the slash attack from Cat Mario in SM3DW, and forward smash a hammer swing. It’s totally possible to have simple and cool-looking, so Mario does not deserve A tier. Donkey Kong: I agree on this one. He needs some changes, which I have done before. Link: if a game is going to have three different versions of the same character, then they better do something unique with it. Adult Link is so clearly based on BotW and now TotK that leaving his specials virtually the same is ridiculous and stands out. When I redesigned him, I focused on the runes, but your comment on Stasis being a good grab made me realize that using both runes and Champion abilities in the same move set is completely reasonable. I have to disagree on A tier. Samus: I agree here too. I’m not familiar enough with Metroid to redesign her, but I watched your video on it and that seems pretty good. Yoshi: I disagree here too. Yoshi is extremely well known for his transformations, and I was able to use that for a redesign. I made his neutral air a multi hit attack as a helicopter, his down tilt a double sweep with mole claws, and his smash attacks and three of his specials based on his original three abilities: Fire, flying, and earthquakes. He definitely plays like Yoshi, so it’s not a far drop, but the references could be so much stronger. Kirby: Strong disagree. Kirby is known for his versatility through his many copy abilities, and many of them lend themselves extremely well to standard moves without going over the top on the animation. I made neutral air the Leaf Dance, forward tilt the Whip Strike, and side special the Tornado dash, to name a few. Fox: disagree on the placement. I see why you put him there, but Fox should go higher because he’s a good representation of his home series while rocking an iconic move set. If he had more stuff related to Adventures he’d be perfect. Pikachu: agree. Let Pikachu punch something. Luigi: he doesn’t deserve to be THAT low. I agree that he’s poorly designed and needs changes, but his toxicity isn’t part of his design: it seems more like a side effect to me. If he had a move set that’s him accidentally hitting people because of how terrified he is with good balance, then he’d be fine. Ness: not the best, but I agree that he’s well designed. Not that there’s that much to do with him anyways. Captain Falcon: is the best. His representation of his home series is only outmatched by his popularity in the game. There’s nothing wrong with him, nothing to change. This is peak character design. Jigglypuff: I agree. I’m tired of writing at this point. Part 2 for Melee?

[@rbspecial9741]

Luigi's moveset needs to go full Luigi's Mansion come next game

[@Ryno12345able]

True also maybe reference the thunder brand of Mario and luigi RIP Alphadream

[@waffleman8053]

I still think he should still have a good amount of Mario's moves. He is famous for being player 2 after all.

[@Mrangrybird-vg1iy]

yoshi side special can break shields

[@IdeaBox-dk5vj]

Honestly, my least favorite part of your ranking is how low Luigi is. I get that the competitive community has soured your opinion on Mario's taller brother, but is it really that bad? I mean, if we're going with a mix of accuracy and artistic license, his throws and grabs primarily use the Poltergust, his old Final Smash took the most advantage of the idea that he's the unsung hero of the Mario series, and if nothing else, the fact that he's quite viable in the games could reflect how people look at him not with disdain or insulting remarks, but as someone to look up to in life. Optimistic rant aside, I like how Mario and Link are firmly in A-tier, while DK's low placement is relatively justified. Like, we don't even have a barrel-based attack for him.

[@shy1157]

Mario, i do think it's a crime that he was never given Cappy as an actual move, just a taunt, and flair, even just making cap throw a new side tilt that could also show off certain new mechanics that other fighters have. Link, i think should have at least gotten a small overhaul with more moves, spin attack should really be made into his down smash these days, considering all the other gear and abilities he has, or even just adding visual flair to certain things, like just visuals of the champion abilities during certain things. (grounded Spin Attack would get Urbosa's fury, aerial Spin Attack would get Revali’s Gale, parrying would get Darruk's Protection, and reviving on a recovery platform would get Mipha's Grace.) Kirby, even as a Kirby fan, these days i'm just... not that big with most of his moves being taken from Fighter, especially with other abilities that also excel at close to mid range combat, with almost all of his moves being a reference to one single ability, why couldn't he get more thrown in to his kit, especially giving him a tool to rush down opponents. Pikachu, i really feel Thunder Jolt should be changed, even if it was just a name change, but really yeah, Skull Bash has to go, it doesn't even make that much sense when you think, this Pikachu would have to have originally been a Pichu to learn Volt Tackle. Also with Iron Tail up smash shout out to the Brawl mod Project + for doing exactly that. Luigi, he really does need an overhaul as you said, but not just to change his playstyle, his whole moveset needs it too, like i do like the idea of him having a bag of tricks that can catch you off guard, like Luigi catching a ghost off guard in his games, but i think making him like Mario with his own twists and giving him his own moves, would be a perfect base for reworking Luigi Ness, not a nitpick, but a small thing to what you brought up, it was actually said to be canon to Smash that Paula taught Ness those PSI/PK techniques he cannot learn to give him a better chance at fighting. Jigglypuff... honestly is really hard to do anything new with, mostly just out of what she has, the only real change I can think of is replacing Rollout with sing and giving her an actual recovery tool, maybe changing one of her smash attacks into something like Disarming Voice or like you said Hyper Voice.

[@RacingSnails64]

Giving Mario some Odyssey rep in his moveset would've been so easy. Just make Cappy his tether grab like they did for Luigi with his Poltergust. It's SO easy. Great video! I'm looking forward to more of this! I disagree it's entirely out of character for Luigi to be wacky (see the RPGs) but toning down his power so he's not annoying or toxic is totally fine. He should succeed more by fake outs and a "drunken fist" fighting style, not by sudden explosions or zero-death-combos lol.

[@The_Gabe]

You talk about how hated Luigi is but don’t mention the amount of hate Ness is getting? Bruh They should totally revamp his moveset too, give him his actual weapons and moves he uses and make him sound less annoying.

[@thelancerfromtimeline1009]

I think all ness needs is a 10 second cooldown between Successful pk fire hits as well as the bat as his back air.

[@The_Gabe]

@@thelancerfromtimeline1009 , I think it’s just fine but there should only be one PK Fire per Ness on screen

[@MagillanicaLouM]

@@thelancerfromtimeline1009 10 seconds is way too long a cool down for anything in a fighting game. Unless you mean 10 frames?

[@thelancerfromtimeline1009]

@@MagillanicaLouM maybe lower it to 5 seconds

[@marcelopaulo446]

To be honest,your the best ranker I "know",better than Nathaniel.

[@SquidlyPoli1]

Saying that Luigi and DK have aged worse than Jigglypuff is ridiculous to me. I get that they've had significant developments in their sources since Smash 64 came out but at least they work for the archetypes they try to present. Jigglypuff is... not exactly great, as you said she's mostly just there because she had a big presence in the Pokemon anime and is kind of a big joke, and keeping her kit the same for the past 20+ years or so has just made people realize how campy and boring it actually is. I feel like she should get axed because she isn't exactly the greatest choice by today's standards, but people will probably get mad at such a thing happening, not just because their favorite character got cut but moreso because she's already just made her place in Smash history and it just feels offputting to cut one of the original 12.

[@Mr.WafflesIGuess]

"luigi has bad game design!!11!!!!11!" (says while losing to 3 level 3 cpus AND GETTING MIXED MY GUY JESUS YOU DIED FIRSTT!)

[@rydermcclanahan6324]

Did anyone else find “You scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours” a little disturbing?

[@TerryVide0z]

A 20 seconds long unskippable ad. KZbin has reached a new low

[@jackflynn412]

Completely agree about Luigi that's such a based take. He needs a rework that actually represents his abilities in the games he's from. Make his Up Special the new Jump move from Luigi's Mansion 3, make his Side B the Thunderhand from the RPGs, and then make his Air Speed actually good so he can recover and won't need to overrly on Misfire since we're removing Green Missile. Down B can stay the same but they can add a Luma to the animation to make it a reference.

[@Alfonso88279]

I don't understand the criteria. Sometimes feels like you are judging their closeness to their games and the references, other times it seems like you are judging their ability to fight. I don't get it. I like tier lists but I need to understand the criteria to know if I agree or disagree. In my case, my greatest confusion is with Kirby. I mean, Sakurai made Kirby too and I think it shows because Kirby is exactly like he is in his own games: Easy to use, and he has a lot of resources to help newbies. Every movement he has is a reference to some of his games (or most of his moves at least). I don't understand the problem. DK was judged poorly because he barely had anything from his games and Kirby... because he is not that good anymore? Also, Luigi. Man. Luigi fights exactly the way I would expect somebody like Luigi to fight. I don't know, in general I think the tier list is a bit confused about what it wants to do. I'll subscribe because I like the general tone and there are good thoughts here, but I think a lot of them may be wrongly placed?

[@CrazyWeridoRH]

I disagree with Luigi but like the other stuff

[@TheFinedrawingart]

I think Link would be much better if his moves where based on the champion ability's. But how does Sakurai know everything, isn't it almost impossible for him to study more than 80 characters based on their games?

[@MagillanicaLouM]

Well he's not the only guy working on these games lol. While yeah, he's flat out said he actually plays the home games in preparation, at least some of them anyway, I'm sure anyone on the dev team that needs it gets design docs, concept art, notes from whoever would be the one from the home franchise to give that info. Especially when the past couple are developed by an outside company from Nintendo being Bamco

[@LilKiwi2240]

I disagree with a few but I'm also taking into consideration the taunts and the character outside of the moveset

[@dyll_pyckle]

I dunno, I’m kinda halfzies on this vid. I agree with some parts and disagree with others. I get what you’re saying but I know there’s better ways to implement it and give us the best of both worlds, reference & moveset wise. Melee is gonna be interesting. Kinda mixed overall tbh. …I wouldn’t be mixed on a character moveset for Phoenix Wright though!!

[@MagillanicaLouM]

For Phoenix, beating how he works in Marvel vs Capcom 3 would be quite the challenge. How he plays there is basically the blue print for how a lot of modern smash newcomers function. It's practically playing an Ace Attorney case but I'm the form of single fighting game character. He's got his own unique mechanic in the clues he collects thats tracked by a separate UI thing just for him, completing the conditions for that will give him access to a unique mode and moves that increase his potency and of course his normals are a balance of fun references and in character attacks without him actually ever throwing a single punch. And he even has Maya as his own personal assist he can call out whenever in certain specials and supers. Though, at this point, I figure they would pull from Nick in AA5 onwards (with maybe some AA4) to base him around should he be put in smash. Like trading Maya for Trucy as his personal assist for example her providing more magician themed help. She could have Mr.Hat block a move/provide limited armor as a down special or for a smash attack.Side special could be his move from MvC3 where he walks up and chucks papers in the opponents, the could linger for a second and disrupt attacks while still in the air. Side smash could be the good ol point, fully charged would be the one he does in TA mode in MvC3. No clue at all for things like what his recovery would involve. Since he's more experienced, his normals could change to be slightly more composed and collected than in MVC3. Of course how he combos will be different. Just some off the top ideas

[@dyll_pyckle]

@@MagillanicaLouM Wow! You really thought this out. Thanks for the long comment haha. I feel there are a couple of different ways to adapt his MvC3 moveset into Smash because, I agree, it’s really perfect. I’m thinking that Maya and Trucy change depending on what costume you have on. 1-3 is Maya and 4-6 is Trucy. I’ve seen using a ladder/stepladder as a recovery which would be hilarious, if not a bit of a niche reference. I imagine it’d look or function something like Sonic’s up B. But regardless, I always comment about the video which then leads into asking this guy to make a Phoenix Wright character moveset lol.

[@MagillanicaLouM]

@@dyll_pyckle Yeah i forgot they'd definitely implement both looks as costumes lol. And i love the step ladder idea, at least any real ace attorney would know what's going on lol

[@dyll_pyckle]

@@MagillanicaLouM Exactly haha. Do you think Phoenix ever really had/has a chance at becoming a fighter?

[@MagillanicaLouM]

@@dyll_pyckle If they ever go as far with 3rd party as they have in ultimate ever again, I'd say it's likely. While the series has since branched out, it's home has largely been for... Like close 20 years on Nintendo handhelds and I'm sure the devs would enjoy trying to work a moveset and playstyle out of him. Out of any new Capcom series o can think of for smash, Ace Attorney would be a high contender even ignoring my own bias in favor of it lol

[@anonymouss1270]

Kapitan falcon easy F Captain Padraig easy SSS++ tier, man simply can do no wrong

[@Air21Man]

Your interpretation of "well designed" is very different to my own. I skew more strongly on the design mechanics of a kit: how moves synergize with each other, the freedoms in player expression that they provide, and how that kit fits alongside the rest of the game's cast. It is for that reason that I find much of Smash's kits to be disjointed or improper, even when they do a good job of representing the chosen character, while something like Rivals of Aether strongly showcases the kinds of kits I'd consider "well designed". Because of that, I often found myself too distracted to follow along with your thoughts for any given character and where they belonged in your tierlist. For example, I don't know why Ness would get an S tier when his toolkit feels all over the place. Some of his moves feel vastly overtuned, while others have glaring flaws or inconsistencies. PK Fire is one of the most spammable moves in the entire game with far greater reward than risk, which makes it frustrating to play against for all but the highest levels of play. On the flip side, his PK Flash sees almost no use due to feeling redundant in comparison to his other-better-projectiles and how harshly inverted the risk reward is for the rare times where you do try and use it. His Yo-Yo Down Strong can just invalidate certain characters' recoveries when used at the ledge, making it overpowered against any characters whose kit doesn't happen to avoid being trapped by it, but PSI Magnet is too situational in the opposite direction, since its ability to absorb energy projectiles only matter in matchups where your opponent not only has them, but has ones worth absorbing. It's best property nowadays is the newly added movement tech since everything else about the move's usage feels more like trivia than a tool. Situational moves like these can work in games with larger toolsets (like RPGs) but Smash isn't such a game, so it feels out of place.

[@togarashi6437]

Rivals' characters tend to be feel better designed because the characters were made specifically for the game in mind.

[@sselcho]

The line about the Zelda timeline hit a bit too hard

[@thebluePumpking]

I honestly have an unpopular opinion: Replace Jigglypuff with Scream Tail from Pkmn Scarlet and rework the complete moveset

[@drakejoshofficialyoutubech5569]

I disagree a lot with this list, but that's mainly because I don't think most of these characters need an overhaul. If they were to overhaul any characters for Smash 6 I would much prefer that they look to Ganondorf and Sonic because those characters are both unfaithful to their source material and have major flaws across multiple games from a gameplay perspective.

[@megarayquaza2240]

I'm saying it now. Steve is S Tier.

[@captainmega6310]

Personally disagree with Up b being side b but I don't think egg roll should be something else

[@user-jl7cz2pe6d]

This is random but I wonder how Smash will handle jigglypuff's new form Scream Tail in the future

[@ballisticboo7808]

Best case scenario it's an alt

[@casalwylie8461]

LUIGI IS S TIER AND THIS TIER LIST HAS RUINED MY LIFE

[@AziDoesQuestionableThings]

ohoooho, 51 dislikes 👀, controversy imminent

[@mellin7049]

did you really rank "PK Fire, the Character" S Tier?

[@pksprite6401]

Get good

[@mellin7049]

@@pksprite6401 lmaooo

[@Sanic12424]

Already know sonic is gonna be in the bottom lol

[@lunarkomet]

Smash devs need to wake up

[@cmrobbins88]

Ness is a pretty well designed character. But sadly I hate his guts. I’ve found nothing but toxic PK Fire spamming and misery. There’s definitely skill issue on my part and I cannot deny that I’m salty, but it’s been nothing but bad experiences with this dead-eyed child from The Omen. I hate fighting Ness and Lucas in Ultimate. Personal F Tier for me, but it’s mostly spite.

[@pksprite6401]

Get good

[@lilsquirt6842]

I’d love to see Dante, Doom Slayer, and Scorpion in challenger approaching

[@Neoxon619]

Realistically, we probably aren’t gonna get Scorpion as long as Mortal Kombat continues to ignore Japan. Not to mention that Guilty Gear & Virtua Fighter are likely next in line for playable Smash representation anyway. Dante & Doon Slayer videos would be interesting, even if Nintendo would likely prioritize Monster Hunter regarding the former.

[@lilsquirt6842]

@@Neoxon619 I definitely agree on Guilty Gear and Virtua Fighter being next in line as the next fighting game representatives, especially Guilty Gear in my opinion. But you do have to remember that the only reason Mortal Kobat isn’t in Japan isn’t out of strange choice to ignore that region but because of it’s violence that Japan doesn’t allow to be sold there. Despite that Smash would be the perfect channel for Mortal Kombat to be able to be in Japan as a Smash fighter because it would tone down its violence and on top of all of that would be representation of one the most revolutionary retro and modern day fighting games in history, which even with that by itself would probably get him to be chosen for its legacy. Not to mention that Mortal Kombat is the only fighting game that outsells Smash and I just don’t see how there isn’t a decent chance of someone like scorpion making it in. And yeah Doom Guy and Dante would be extremely likely aswell. With Microsoft owning Bethesda now i feel like Doom becomes one of the most likely next in line western fighters who’s only competition before as a fps representative was Chief, but now that Doom guys Microsoft own I can’t see how Dooms legacy in popularizing the genre not just multiplayer in the genre wouldn’t be chosen over Chief. And Dante is almost a given along with Monster Hunter as Capcoms next reps

[@Neoxon619]

@@lilsquirt6842 I was primarily speaking on NRS not providing a more toned-down version that could actually be sold in Japan, similar to what Capcom does for Resident Evil. And even then, Smash isn't a magic fix for making a series popular. Fire Emblem was on the brink of death before Awakening despite Smash, while Dragon Quest saw no noticeable boost in the West because of Hero being added to Ultimate. For better or worse, Smash prioritizes Japanese games. And with its modern games not being present in the region, it'll be a herculean task for Mortal Kombat to even be considered over Guilty Gear & Virtua Fighter. Regarding Dante, his issues come down to two things: Monster Hunter & Reuben Langdon. For the former, Monster Hunter has a longer history with Nintendo, is a much bigger IP than Devil May Cry thanks to MH World, & indications that Sakurai tried to get the character before: Hints from ex-Fanbyte reporter Imran Khan & Monster Hunter being classified as a series with a playable rep in the files (similar to what happened with the Chorus Kids in 3DS/Wii U). And given that Monster Hunter got in MvCI as DLC, the MH team has loosened up regarding a playable Hunter in recent years. On the topic of Reuben, he's......gone off the deep end over the last few years. And it's very strongly implied by him at the time Ken's new English VA was revealed that he & Capcom parted ways when Capcom asked him to cut it out & he said no (some BS about "needing to be true to myself no matter what"). Nintendo had already distanced themselves from Langdon as of October 2020 when they stopped using the English version of a Street Fighter-themed Smash commercial in the wake of the controversy. And given how they recast Byleth & Anna for similar reasons, Nintendo doesn't mess around about this kind of thing. So until Capcom recasts Dante (if they haven't already), I wouldn't get your hopes up for him. As for Doom Slayer (not Doom Guy, Slayer is the official name in most forms of media), I'd probably consider Jonsey or Lifeline to be more likely for the same reason I don't expect Mortal Kombat to show up: Fortnite & Apex Legends are obscenely bigger in Japan than any other shooter besides Splatoon. Though not only has DOOM actually released in Japan in recent years, we already got a Doom Slayer Mii costume in Ultimate. So he has that over Mortal Kombat's characters, at least.

[@a-bomb777]

I think Luigi should move up to D tier, yes I think his moveset needs updating, but F tier seems a bit harsh

[@dannypalin9583]

The man lost all credibility the moment he gave Luigi F tier.

[@Neoxon619]

The issue of having a good starting point reminds me of how Street Fighter went about the situation in SF6. Because Luke became the new entry point character, Ryu was allowed to become more interesting from mechanical standpoint. With that said, I’d argue that Mario isn’t really a great starting point. Though within the confines of the rushdown slant, he could get rid of FLUDD since it doesn’t really gel with said play-style.

[@Ryno12345able]

Exactly, I'd say both kirby and link are better for beginners

[@HomeWingGamer]

I think, while it doesn't fit his down B as much as maybe as a smash attack or so, i think Mario needs some Hammer moves. It's maybe not as synonymous as fireballs or iconic as his cape, it really feels like a part of his powerset that's absent from Smash past a couple of items.

[@Neoxon619]

@@HomeWingGamer My idea was to move Cape to Down B & relegate Cappy to Side B. Maybe we could swap Cappy for the Hammer.

[@Delzethin]

I do think if any of Mario's moveset could use a change, it'd be his down special. Having a move dedicated to edgeguarding does help, but it's clunkier than the rest of his kit and isn't as easy for beginners to wrap their heads around.

[@seabass64]

@Tiki Buzz no character works as well as a beginner as mario though? mario is the most iconic character in the game and probably the first one almost everyone will pick lol

[@Aperson-62]

One thing about Captain Falcon is that he does have some F-Zero in him but it's only a minor thing. F-Zero is a series about going extremely fast so Captain Falcon having an incredibly fast Dash Speed makes sense. Raptor Boost, added in Melee, also works in a way in how you are often boosting in F-Zero games with Boost Power to help you overtake your opponents. But those are kind of a stretch and yeah the kit is mostly original, especially with giving him a Rider Kick.

[@chuckleschannel6210]

ok this tier list is...interesting yeah that's a word I can use. while most of it is generally agreeable there are a couple of takes I have no idea what to do with fox and puff in particular but out of this whole list I gotta ask what the fuck is up with falcon. I have no idea how someone could justify falcon not being at the top of the tier list. first of all his gameplay is phenomenal he manages to get the feeling of f-zero into a fighting game flawlessly with fast hyper aggressive gameplay but every option he chooses is very committal like choosing between pressing your lead or stopping for a quick heal in f-zero. the moveset itself is perfect as the character designs in f-zero were heavily inspired by both eastern and western comics so sakurai combined both with is moveset. as for why you bumped him down B the only two real arguments you gave in favor of that placement were his personality and him being a copy paste from the fighter in the smash 64 demo. I can former very quickly sakurai has released footage and design docs of smash 64 and out of the entire moveset the only moves they even have in common are jab, and forward tilt. and in terms of personality all falcon had at the time were a single comic that came with the original f-zero and come on are you going to tell me you prefer that interpretation of falcon compared to the hero of everyone smash portrays. not to mention in future installments of the series f-zero embraced the smash falcon and turning that version into the definitive version of the character. it's so weird how in this video you constantly go off about how "movesets don't need to be just references" yet the moment you see a fighter who takes any creative liberty you're "confused". ps: puff is an S tier design and a perfect joke character don't have time to make a second essay but yeah

[@dockingwater1713]

Eh I still think Link could use some minor tweaks. Particularly the Up Special. Yeah the Spin Attack is iconic, but all 3 of the Links have the same move with very few differences. You could absolutely move it to Down Smash and replace the Up Special with Revali’s Gale. There’s another character I also want to mention being Kirby, but it seems you already have some ideas for him. So, I’ll save my thoughts too.

[@SunshineRey]

BoTW is literally the only Zelda game where spin attack is 1. a multi hit and 2. a move that is not taught to the player nor learned as the game goes on. I still don’t understand why it’s a single hit, extremely punishable up b on stage when it’s never used in the air in any game and a perfectly good replacement is right there. Plus it would be easy to code since they could use snake’s up b as a base and add a windbox or something.

[@Mr.Cynical]

I don't think Link should get any of his Champion's abilities, simply because of what character he is. Despite being Breath of the Wild Link in design, he's still supposed to be the combination of all adult Link's, and as such, I think he should stick to the things all Link's possess. You can change a couple of attributes and moves, but I don't think they should be derivative from each other, as if Link changes next game, he has to keep the similar moves that they all share together. If there's no glider in the next game, he'd have to default back to the Spin Attack, or something else. That's why Bomb Runes and double Arrows work for him, because it's still something unique from the newest games, without completely changing the Special itself. It's why I always advocate for Toon Link to get something like the Deku Leaf instead, because he's supposed to represent the Wind Waker and other toon games, and that makes more sense for him to have both as a reference and for his kit.

[@captainmega6310]

That would be terrible

[@jmurray1110]

You could easily just move spin attack to his down smash

[@spongyoshi]

I like the concept, but I don't feel like the execution was done particularly well, especially the lead-up to the final note. While some like Luigi and Mario had some good lead-up to theirs, a good number felt like their rank was kind of arbitrary. The best example was Samus where I feel like it had a good argument to have a decent note (being in an unique position between zoners, being half-zoner half-brawler) yet it ended in E just because it could use a few references.. while Mario had an A with an argument being that he shouldn't be a compilation of references, so it feels a bit off... I feel like each part is too focused on presenting the overall character (which is definitely important, don't get me wrong) instead of telling your thoughts about it, they definitely were put on the backseat compared to presenting the characters or your ideas for a possible revamp which I feel like is a huge shame for that concept and kind of undermines the whole idea. I like what you do and this is definitely a cool idea but I definitely feel like the lead-up to each note could use some work, make it longer if need be, but less focus on references and more on what each fighter brings to the table, maybe more on the synergy of the whole moveset as well? Anyway, looking forward to it, best of luck!!

[@diegorosario5165]

Captain Falcon I think should have been A tier. Almost none of his movesets are pulled from his game, but Smash has made him so damn iconic that it honestly feels natural for him to have all this. It's become part of his identity as a character that a lot of people including myself have enjoyed. He's like a steak dinner with a side of broccoli. That one steak is so simple but it carries the entire meal.

[@castform7]

If this was like a year ago, I would've disagreed with Kirby. But now that I've thought it over, I was really wrong on how I wanted him to be. He's supposed to be simple, giving him a Mega Man style rework would probably make him a bit like Mega Man where he's more complicated (honestly, I feel cases like Mega Man of being a reference machine, while cool and appropriate, has done a lot more harm than good when it comes to moveset speculation and reworks). All of of his moves while generic have a purpose and give a basic idea of the different directions of moves. Plus it's not like his moveset is without abilities. He has a whole 7 represented in his kit and has a move that copies the Neutral Special of anyone he ate. I'd say all things considered that's a good comprimise personally and to top it off, it's a moveset I like since I main the character. A few small things though. 1. No, most of Kirby's Normals do not take from Fighter. Only Jab and F-Smash take from the ability and even then F-Smash takes a move Fighter only used in Super Star and the remake. Anything else that isn't a throw or a Special is made up. 2. Kirby not having his slide kick feels weird. It's been with him for so long and no ability is required to use it. A simple D-Tilt change I feel would be fine. 3. I think Hi-Jump should be Kirby's Up Special. Now let's get the elephant in the room out of the way. No this would not make Kirby broken even though he has so many jumps. Look at (current) Meta Knight with Shuttle Loop. He's a perfectly average character. Now the reason I want this is due to Final Cutter not only showing off the least used move of the Cutter ability but also not a very accurate showcase of Final Cutter or what an Up Special should primarily do. I think Kirby having Hi-Jump (working about the same as it does in the Kirby games) would be good for the character design wise while making him no where even near broken.

[@MagillanicaLouM]

"Metaknight's a perfectly average character" Suddenly every smash player from the Brawl days winced in pain

[@castform7]

@@MagillanicaLouM While I was making the comment, just saying "Meta Knight" in a more general sense didn't feel right considering the demon he was in 2008, so I felt like I had to add the "(current)".

[@MagillanicaLouM]

@@castform7 yeah i completely missed that lol. Just wanted to poke fun at brawl knight though

[@castform7]

@@MagillanicaLouM Totally understand. The fact they thought Brawl Meta Knight and Brawl Ganondorf belonged in the same game is wild.

[@InuYashaboy707]

One of my biggest pet peeves in a fan moveset is when every single move is a reference or a special mechanic for no reason. Not every character needs to be Mega Man. Punches and kicks are okay. With that said, Kirby absolutely IS one of those character that should be like Mega Man in my opinion, for the same reason as Mega Man. The core of his character IS the deep pool of powers he can draw from. I don't think that would even compromise his pick up and play style. Also, I don't want huge updates to Mario but Luma Spin on d-air would be nice~

[@jalapenoofjustice4682]

I think Luigi's Mansion is popular enough at this point that Luigi's moveset should be entirely based on it. Especially if Smash does a reboot and they need ways to justify its existence next to Ultimate.