Smash Ultimate's Worst Designed Characters

With three years passed since Super Smash Bros. Ultimate stopped getting updates (surprise extra spirits aside), we've had time to think in detail about everything the game has pulled off. Most of it is impressive, from the roster itself to character animations and more! But there're still some blemishes that stick out, and one is the inconsistent quality in how the fighters' movesets are designed.
I want to talk about that, in hopes that Smash 6 (whenever it happens) is able to patch the problem spots up and be even better! But it's not as simple as just listing out which characters are the worst designed, because there isn't just one way to define that. Watch on to see what I mean...
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Support via Patreon at: / delzethin
Graphic design by Slink and Voyager: / ashadowlink | / fire_voyager
Post-production assistance by Neoxon: / neoxon619
(Additional footage sources are in the pinned comment! Not enough room to put them here.)

[@Delzethin]

Video sources, since there wasn't enough space for them in the description: The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom - Final Boss Fight (Boss Fight Database): kzbin.info/www/bejne/rX7QaYh7e5iaiJY Metroid Dread - Any% Unrestricted Single File Speedrun (Arkandy): kzbin.info/www/bejne/p6DZpqKea9yZetE Sonic Battle - Sonic Gameplay (Mega Blue): kzbin.info/www/bejne/b6mxn2Zmbsqdns0 Super Smash Bros. (64) - Foca (Link) vs. Killer (Kirby) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWLJnqKuopqoY5Y Super Smash Bros. (64) - Mrsir (Samus) vs. PYT (Captain Falcon) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/pmfXc4Jvi79naq8 Super Smash Bros. (64) - SuPeRbOoMfAn (Mario) vs. Tacos (Donkey Kong) (VGBootCamp) kzbin.info/www/bejne/qovUnZeQf5hskLs Super Smash Bros. for 3DS/Wii U - Little Mac Reveal Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): kzbin.info/www/bejne/nZ7Xo6B3q7Fol9k Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Anathema (R.O.B.) vs. Jahzz0 (Ken) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5OxZKl4jJ2le9E Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Announcement Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): kzbin.info/www/bejne/rWSqpWdooLuaedk Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Challenger Approaching Intro Video (Smash Bros. Official Channel): kzbin.info/www/bejne/aYrQep9pn6Zqa5o Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Chase (Palutena) vs. Ven (Zelda) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/qoWog52abpKCbq8 Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - ChunkyKong (Donkey Kong) vs. Doostop (Zero Suit Samus) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/pJKXfoFpg8l1oZo Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Donkey Kong Reveal Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): kzbin.info/www/bejne/gWispIh9mquLhpI Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Doramigi (Min Min) vs. Kome (Shulk) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/qJWxh2CNar2cZpI Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Frosty (Wolf) vs. Rickles (Ganondorf) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/anW2pYCYibiYeMU Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Ganondorf Mini-Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2jTq6KChtGlqa8 Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Goblin (Roy) vs. BeastModePaul (Hero) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/b6KQip-Mh7F6rbs Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Guilheww (Kirby) vs. Sparg0 (Cloud) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/bGKldp-pgbqJarc Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Hero Reveal Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): kzbin.info/www/bejne/pqbTnZ9phLNgjaM Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Hurt (Snake) vs. Tea (Kazuya) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/mmezenR6i9yAipI Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Jagaimo (Palutena) vs. Gachipi (Lucario) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/rZrJiol6etVgqtU Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Jakal (Wolf) vs. Syrup (Steve) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYu3qq2GepWqipI Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Jake (Steve) vs. Justinbyleth (Byleth) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/nIjGoqWurJZ5a5Y Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - JeJaJeJa (Kirby) vs. Tilde (Falco) (Collision Gaming Series): kzbin.info/www/bejne/bZ2nlJWHibZ4j5Y Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Kazuya Reveal Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): kzbin.info/www/bejne/gZTXq3SXnLJjfpo Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Ken (Sephiroth) vs. Dabuz (Rosalina) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/bamxk5SgeLxmoK8 Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Ken (Sonic) vs. Glutonny (Wario) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/b4jOZ2atnrl4osk Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Lucario Mini-Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): kzbin.info/www/bejne/bZjJoYidp7F4rdE Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Luigi Mini-Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): kzbin.info/www/bejne/gp2xiX6DaNh7jbc Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Luigi Instakill Combos (Smash Box): kzbin.info/www/bejne/m2G2eYyJmap7gdU Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Maister (Mr. Game & Watch) vs. Mr. R (Chrom) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/epuxk2ugqK91b7M Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Min Min Reveal Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): kzbin.info/www/bejne/mny1kKpseJp0a80 Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - MKLeo (Joker) vs. Sonix (Sonic) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/lYG5iGecic-GiLs Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - “More Fighters” Trailer (via GameSpot Trailers): kzbin.info/www/bejne/mZvHl6SOfrJggdE Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - PKChris (Ness) vs. Peanut (Little Mac) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/q4OclmeZh6aBg6M Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - QuiK (Samus) vs. Edwin (Mega Man) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/iqGwf36od5qMh7c Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Raru (Luigi) vs. Snow (Pyra/Mythra) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/r4bTpqNjmNmcbZY Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Riddles (Kazuya) vs. Omega (Joker) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/jIuwdX6hYtWdqJo Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Sakurai Presents Hero (Nintendo of America): kzbin.info/www/bejne/mZqvdotmaaeJfK8 Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Sakurai Presents Kazuya (Nintendo of America): kzbin.info/www/bejne/n37caXSeacqEbsk Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Sakurai Presents Steve (Nintendo of America): kzbin.info/www/bejne/lYTTZqJnf6-Xes0 Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Samus Mini-Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): kzbin.info/www/bejne/f2rXlKmJmsqgjNE Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Sephiroth Reveal Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): kzbin.info/www/bejne/gIHblHhnmbKkgpo Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Shuton (Pyra/Mythra) vs. Tarakotori (Little Mac) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/fmivdYSJebaJadk Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Sonic Mini-Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z2Sbfoptr7SqZq8 Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Sonix (Sonic) vs. Shadic (Corrin) (Beyond the Summit - Smash): kzbin.info/www/bejne/r160mamBga2toJY Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Sora Reveal Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): kzbin.info/www/bejne/bmO0Y4uKf52djc0 Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Sparg0 (Cloud) vs. Acola (Steve) (Beyond the Summit - Smash): kzbin.info/www/bejne/i2rPYZyBpb-pe68 Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Steve Reveal Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): kzbin.info/www/bejne/b2Gtp5iVpryhpsU Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Takera (Ken) vs. ProtoBanham (Min Min) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/op-ompmql6eokLM Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Tweek (Sephiroth) vs. Ling (Peach) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/qojIhWuBrZt1lc0 Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Wildz (Kazuya) vs. Wrath (Sonic) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/sGPRha1so86Dl80 Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Yoshidora (Yoshi) vs. Toriguri (Banjo & Kazooie) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/amOpoJiOnr15p6c Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Zomba (R.O.B.) vs. Gachipi (Lucario) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5bPYp9-oZ6fi5o Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Zomba (R.O.B.) vs. JaZaR (Dr. Mario) (VGBootCamp): kzbin.info/www/bejne/rZu1k4KHiJaBja8

[@philipsgrignoli7866]

Sorry buddy, but I already subscribed since a long time ago. I'll leave a like and a comment though :)

[@vanessasandoval96]

I honestly love playing as MinMin in smash and love Dragon Quest hero

[@justinn8541akaDrPokemon]

Ganondorf. He doesn’t represent himself, he represent Captain Falcon.

[@squallleonhart9387]

If only Sakurai heard of the character Black Shadow from the F-Zero series, I’m pretty sure he knows of Blood Falcon since he has been an alt for Falcon since 64 and in the story mode GX Black Shadow is catches Captain Falcon and creates Blood Falcon with cloning device so Blood and Black Shadow have a character relation too.

[@justinn8541akaDrPokemon]

@@squallleonhart9387 From the few F-Zero I heard from, they want Black Falcon to be his own character while Blood Falcon should have SmashDorf's moveset.

[@castform7]

Yup, Falcon. A character whose moveset was already made up to begin with. Ganondorf's sword isn't even something he uses from Ocarina, it was from a trailer from a game that never came out.

[@justinn8541akaDrPokemon]

@@castform7 If I had a nickel for every Smash character with a moveset that is made up, I would have 4 nickels, 7 if you count the Miis seperetly. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird it happened twice. Should have only happened 3 times, 6 times if you count the Miis seperetly.

[@thegreygoblin5165]

Want the Trident, gimme the Trident

[@PopcornBunni]

Olimar coming from a strategy game about careful positioning and time management and that translating to a floaty character that runs away while spamming projectiles has to be among the worst designs in any game ever.

[@castform7]

I'm super surprised Olimar slithered away from a video like this. He seems like a prime candidate.

[@quillion3rdoption]

Why would want Olimar, already a very slow, turtly character, to be even slower?

[@squallleonhart9387]

@@PopcornBunni I miss having 6 Pikmin out at a time and I would sacrifice 8 Player Smash for it, does anybody even still care about it or have that many friends to play with? Imagine the cost of getting a specific controller for some who have a preference.

[@nascour5991]

unfortuantely most zoners in ult far into the lame or badly designed side, except megaman and pacman (capcom you ain't slick lmao)

[@quillion3rdoption]

@@nascour5991 I kinda wish Young Link's Fire Arrow that actually sets up follow ups would be more common among projectile users (conceding that Fire Arrow spam needs to be nerfed tho).

[@keksidy]

I miss when Luigi was funny annoying instead of annoying annoying

[@nascour5991]

yeah he's great in melee, bad in 64 (but being bad in 64 isn't as bad a deal as other smash games), none existant in brawl, great in 4 but his down b offstage is cancer and aids in ultimate. He deserves better then being a lame bs char.

[@DannyCheezits]

@@nascour5991 its pretty sad how so many Brawl characters basically don't exist just from how fucked they are against Icies and MK

[@DatDude2246]

they shoulda kept his recovery potential for his luigi cyclone cause that hurt him significantly

[@King90983]

@@keksidy As a Luigi main I sadly agree. He is a one sided character like sonic. He is fun to play as but not at all to play against. Especially when your stock spontaneous combusts because you get grabbed a zero.

[@ZeeecksLegends]

Luigi is still really funny He had more options to gimp and cheese you in smash 4 than he does in this game He’s more one dimensional than before but he’s still really fun to watch

[@spongebobfan78]

It would be even more depressing if the next Smash game happens and Sonic still has his same moveset. Like, he literally had a mainline title where he had different offensive moves.

[@iantaakalla8180]

He could also be gone. And I would welcome that, solely because while Sonic is iconic, he is iconic because he is the iconic annoying character, Smash’s stances on using characters mean that he will have the same problems if not worse if he is in Smash 6, and I imagine that Smash 5 is so ambitious that if a Smash 6 appears they really will work with characters that originate from Nintendo games.

[@Right_Bumper]

They won’t change him, doesn’t matter how many new Sonic games come out

[@dwightk.schrute7213]

@@iantaakalla8180 Not likely. Sonic and Mario's rivalry is too significant. Would the fans really want a Nintendo fighting game where they couldn't duke it out? Plus, lots of iconic characters aren't really Nintendo's; they're third-party, like Pac Man and Simon. Should we remove them too, by that logic? I don't want them getting rid of my precious Mega Man, personally.

[@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821]

I'd argue that Frontiers moveset just isnt well known enough. Frontiers got beat out in sales by all of the good 3D sonic games (except Shadow the Hedgehog). It was a good game, for sure, but I don't think anything would be as iconic as... a 6th spindash. In general, they don't often do moveset changes anyhow. The only two I can think of is Ganon gaining a sword to distinguish him from Falcon, and Link getting remote bombs (Presumably because of Young Link returning, but also BotW sold a bajillion copies)

[@mythosinfinite6736]

​@@iantaakalla8180 Smash players do not play other video games. Here's an example.

[@stanley8006]

Sonic feels like a mii brawler with fucky stats and moves, not a massive ip fighter. Animations are worse than stiff and it’s just captain falcon & falco movesets copy and pasted

[@jaco8822]

his moveset feels like nintendo's final kick to the nuts to sega over the console war.

[@oof8493]

@@jaco8822 i honestly still think they're bitter about the "nintendon't" thing

[@michaelbecket4901]

I always thought mac was a better mii brawler lol

[@stanley8006]

@@michaelbecket4901 mac is somewhat well designed and on top of that has great animation

[@michaelbecket4901]

@@stanley8006 i think hes perfectly designed honestly people react so negatively to the lack of air mobility but honestly his isint even the worst lol many other fighters such as kazuya and incineroar have objectively worse recoveries that are far more predictable ESPECIALLY as a mac main when u can easily just counter their recoveries when they try to get back on stage people gotta stop acting like 99% of the games air based when most characters cant even work their best in air either

[@OlmiOP]

While I agree with most of these, I would actually disagree with Hero. Sure, he's not as representative of the Dragon Quest games like you said, but something about having a character this random makes it a LOT more interesting than they probably would've been otherwise (we already have a lot of other RPG characters anyway) Maybe the balancing could've been handled a little differently, fair, but I'm still a fan of the end result I'll give you the language thing though, they REALLY should've put symbols on the spells

[@brandonwilliams6119]

If we only had to keep one JRPG character out of all the DLC I would definitely choose Hero, and this is coming from someone who loves Sephiroth too. But even then not even the inclusion of Hero could shut up Goku fans.

[@Krona-fb4dn]

Hard agree, Hero is not that bad aside from a few traits, which is far from being exclusive to Hero. In addition to the symbols, random crits are also quite stupid and really don't add much since Pokemon, Persona, Final Fantasy, Fire Emblem (for the most part) have done pretty much fine without random criticals. Or if people have problems with their representation, its probably not for excluding critical hits.

[@dwightk.schrute7213]

KACLANG!

[@k-leb4671]

@@Krona-fb4dn Mother has critical hits too - pretty quirky, iconic critical hits might I add - and yet Ness and Lucas have done fine without random crits in Super Smash Bros as well. It would actually be pretty thematic if they did have crits in Smash, because...well, crits in Mother go "SMAAAAAAASH". It would be pretty fun if a sweet-spotted fully-charged smash attack from Ness or Lucas showed a "SMAAAAAAASH" graphic next to them with accompanying sound effect if they successfully hit the opponent.

[@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821]

@@k-leb4671 Dear god, it would be dopamine to rival a hatchet man. Anyhow, I honestly think Hero would have been perfectly fine without crits, and I have him as a secondary. No reason for me to just occasionally kill people at 20% because I used Psyche Up and rolled lucky on an F-Smash.

[@nicholaskonkle4841]

I’m actually surprised Olimar wasn’t brought up, as I hear people complaining about him a lot.

[@mrshmuga9]

I just want his up-air back that was a multi-hit with an elemental effect. The new single-hit is lame.

[@Err0_Will]

I'm gonna be 100% real when I say this, I don't understand why people say DK needs to be updated outside of giving him his canon voice. The majority of what he does in Smash is pretty much on brand with what he does in the games with the only real differences being that he's a lot slower in Smash than canon and I don't think people are prepared for a fast DK. Also a lot of people want to give him a Barrel move... just play with Barrels on, that's literally the point of them.

[@ScrubReborn]

It's not like he's slow in Smash either. His movement stats are mostly above average.

[@smashers6971]

Honestly I agree Dk just needs a huge animation overhaul and he’d be fine and even then for new moves just give him the barrel cannon and Sonic clap to replace his more off moves you don’t need to go too far in redesigning him.

[@CameronFulkerson]

I disagree completely with Sephiroth being on this list. Maybe I’m biased because he’s my main. but in my opinion, he makes you feel like you are a final boss with plenty of moves that are pretty easy to exploit if you see them coming, but if you don’t see them coming, he will manipulate you straight into his cards and you will be in his despair just how he manipulated everyone in Final Fantasy VII, and one wing is one of the healthiest comeback mechanics in the game, compared to the others, which just give you a new cheap ability to destroy someone’s stock, this just gives you some character buffs, that’s all. Plus all of his animations are just some *chefs kiss*. The only reason he fell off is because a lot of his weaknesses have become much more exploitable, including his light weight, which I do believe is pretty unnecessary. But that happened with a lot of characters in this game.

[@evansteflik3576]

Fellow Sephiroth main here. I pretty much agree. He is a mid tier, and overall fairly balanced. One wing could be a little bit more understandable, and he could use slight buffs, but overall he is in a good place. He feels fun to play, and his strengths of massive range seems fairly balanced by his weaknesses. Also, no idea what Delzethin was talking about with the two sweetspot types being a problem. I like having the option, and it helps different moves be distinct. Lots of poke moves for ultra long range, slashes for the kills.

[@Fredysaurus]

My problem is he doesn't feel like a cool final boss when you're trying to escape ledge and ftilt is covering the state of texas

[@CameronFulkerson]

@@Fredysaurus having trouble trying to escape a ledge that’s a problem then almost every character has to deal with some degree and as for f-tilt been way too long that’s one of the reasons that makes him feel so strong. You have all the power and the sword that is so long and it’s making it really hard for your opponents to get in.

[@waffleking6474]

Agreed with your final boss statement. No problems with the one winged angel here, I just honestly wish he was buffed. I love fighting against him since he feels like a boss fight. I just wish the fight was a little harder lol.

[@RedFella0115]

Yeah, IF Sonic gets into the next Smash game, his moveset needs to be reworked Here's hoping SEGA gives Nintendo permission to put him in

[@brandonwilliams6119]

I wouldn’t be surprised if them giving Shadow new moves in Shadow Generations was so he could be playable in Smash.

[@nascour5991]

don't get your hopes up

[@Neoxon619]

@@brandonwilliams6119 Assuming that design document was for Smash 6, development began in April 2022. So Shadow Generations might be too late to be referenced in Smash 6 in any meaningful capacity gameplay-wise unless they wait until DLC.

[@padriazozzriaorizifian8672]

are you seriously considering a world where they wouldn't. they would never not give them permission in an universe.

[@RedFella0115]

@@nascour5991 lol😅

[@Neutra77]

5:44 Mario & Luigi vs Sephiroth Nice reference

[@st3pcr8r]

Noticed that too

[@Idonotlikepeanutbutter832]

I don't get why Kazuya's final smash is both a trapping final smash and a state-wide final smash at the same time? Either shoot the multiple lasers right now or have the cutscene be longer by showing physical attacks and finish off with multiple lasers

[@vanessasandoval96]

Yeah I honestly hated playing against Kazuya because my reaction was like this ew Kazuya is so uncool

[@devoniandirk]

Regarding Kirby, i'm just genuinely shocked that Inhale still doesn't work like it how does in his home series. That's literally the thing he's been doing since before copy abilities, how has it been left as an awful mimic of itself for literal decades.

[@brandonwilliams6119]

I love how characters like Mario (with his dash attack), Megaman and even Cloud (with their down tilts) can do slide attacks but Kirby gets a silly looking foot poke when he too can slide in his games.

[@castform7]

@@devoniandirk It never feels like I'm incentivised to use Inhale because of its flaws. I also wish the Star Bullets he spat out were better. Literally his main attack when he's abilityless and it sucks. Villager and Isabelle's Pocket is better at doing it.

[@RekRakJat]

Inhale's usefulness varies, but typically if the foe has a projectile as their neutral it can be a huge help with Kirby's short range. /My/ problem with the inhale though, is that inhaling projectiles themselves is utterly pointless and that infuriates me. Why does Kirby get punished MORE for inhaling a small projectile than just taking the hit? He gets caught up in so much end lag auto-swallowing them, and heals way too little to warrant it-- I just wish he could hold any projectile in his mouth and shoot out an appropriately sized star.

[@djdrizzy9139]

Inhale is the best it's ever been in Ultimate, yet it still sucks as a reflector! It's great vs the few "big" projectiles, but against most of the other projectiles? Unviable. That's NOT how Kirby plays in his games, yet some folks don't think Kirby should get a revamp lol.

[@YujiUedaFan]

@@RekRakJat Or even copy the ability of the character whole shot him.

[@lucathompson7437]

If lucario isn’t on here I’ll be surprised

[@King90983]

Friendly fire will not be tolerated

[@lucathompson7437]

@@King90983 yes it will

[@sundowniseeu]

Immediately had the same thought

[@TreyH.006]

Sonic has to be in here as well

[@King90983]

@@sundowniseeu friendly friendly fire will also not be tolerated

[@unbind_all]

Ah yes, Little Mac, the ironic punching bag of the Smash roster. To be honest, I always thought his design philosophy was kinda dumb from the start. Like, yeah, he is just “a guy,” but the Punch-Out universe is still pretty divorced from reality. Real-life competitive boxing divides playership by weight class, yet puny Mac is regularly going up against giant brutes like King Hippo and Bald Bull all the time. Not to mention the WVBA somehow allowing boxers to bring safety padding, “performance enhancing” drinks, makeshift armor, magic powers, and full-on weapons into the ring. It’d honestly be fine to buff up Mac’s aerials to make them stronger and more useful-his sub-par recovery game is already a severe drawback. It makes him a sort of rushdown, swarming fighter, one who wants to stay in the opponent’s face as much as possible, hit them where it really hurts, and keep wailing on them, no matter how many hits he takes in the process. You know, basically the gameplay of Punch-Out?

[@quillion3rdoption]

He really should have (an adaptation of) the Star Punch system instead of the KO meter too. And totally agree on actually giving him an aerial game. I love the way he's done here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mqTZfHl_gLWYiKc

[@beethovenlivesupstairs4182]

he's fun to play. I hope they don't change his play style because of a bunch of tournament player whine about it.

[@MegaMew204]

I don't mind his recovery, it just takes a good amount of getting used to at first. And of course you can be ledge guarded easily... Looking at you Sora... But learning how to counter their approach is the best part of playing Mac for me. You have to learn how the opponent plays in order to reach your max potential.

[@quillion3rdoption]

@@beethovenlivesupstairs4182 Tournament players and casuals alike whine about it tho. He's too ineffective on the former level and too good on the latter level. The problem is his extremes, not his low-tier status.

[@RollingBobbyJones]

​@quillion3rdoption i don't think anyone understands little mac but little mac mains. Little Mac's design is fine being the polar opp of Jigglypuff but people harp on the same points without any nuance to them. Little Mac having a "bad" air game is ok, its never been non existant as people say it is (sans his back air), the KO punch is scary but its... not good as people say it is and lit every other comeback mechanic is better than it. His recovery is really bad but not on its face. Im ok with Mac having a nerf in power if all the little things that make his recovery god awful was gone

[@dariuscox3576]

I’m honestly shocked that Olimar wasn’t mentioned here. For a character that comes from a RTS game, there isn’t really much “strategy” to his Smash gameplay. I really hate how his smash design just boils down to just running away and mindlessly throwing Pikmim at the opponent (which can rack up a STUPID amount of damage, btw), and spamming his ridiculously overtuned smash attacks. Plus, the Pikmin sticking on to the opponent and having your attacks be slowed down by them in the process is really stupid IMO, and the worst of them all is them having such a high-priority hurtbox that allows them to completely SPONGE a fully-charged Seamus Charge Shot is so horrible! Not to mention: his animations all looks so similar to each other, making it hard to tell what move he’s gonna throw out next. Just look at his Side B, his Forward Smash, and his grab animation back to back, and you’ll see what I mean. Also, does anyone else feel like his Neutral Special, Pikmin Pluck, feels like a wasted special slot? I feel it could’ve easily have been a shield-special, akin to Inkling’s ink refill mechanic, where he can quickly pluck new Pikmin like that, to make way for a different, more usable Neutral Special from his games (not sure what, but something can be thought of.)

[@Krona-fb4dn]

For anything, its probably due to his absurd rarity at most levels so he flies way under the radar. That and his faults are not immediately obvious, like Mac or Sonic.

[@mehgamer467]

There is a lot of misinformation in this post that I can see why you think he is badly represented. I think his animations definitely need work though, but a lot of what you said is just completely incorrect. The only Pikmin that can even tank a Samus charge shot is yellow since charge shot is electric (and yellow is electric type). The other Pikmin will completely just die. Any other projectile for the most part will also block it like young link bomb depending on its strength (so if you just meant taking the hit then that's not even unique to olimar). I think there are somethings you should research more. Upsmash was overturned at launch, but his spamming smash attacks as well is a recipe for failure and his smash attacks get killed (which puts you without Pikmin).

[@the3dluxe53]

I’d say Olimar is a character who lives and dies by his janky nature. He’s got some crazy stuff that he can do but it’s all balanced out by him being inconsistent almost by design. For every upside Pikmin jank gives him there’s a downside.

[@Krona-fb4dn]

@@the3dluxe53 I've played against some solid olimars online (I play Ridley), his attacks do feel pretty stubby and without pikmin, he's genuinely the same tier as Sopo.

[@UumaZooma]

Still don't understand Kirby not copying BOTW Link's hair

[@Skeletonemoji1]

To be honest kirby with links hair would be a really good design choice because why does zelda get the hair but link does not :(

[@shcgrunt]

I’ll be down for the best designed fighters in Smash

[@AndreBabani]

Wolf, fox, pokemon trainer, lucina, Krool, falcon, mii brawler, and bayo are some of my faves in terms of design. If you're curious i'll explain why for each.

[@smashers6971]

8:33 Honestly I don’t think DK’s moveset is bad, animation wise he really needs an update making him a bit overconfident and not taking the fight seriously at low percents but actually deciding to lock in when his opponent actually starts to put up a real fight would do wonders to his personality which he’s really lacking in smash. The only major changes I would make to his moveset would be giving him the barrel cannon as an up special and changing his side special into the Sonic Clap from Jungle beat, a tool for DK to neutralize energy projectiles and disable normal ones, allowing DK to pick them up and use them for himself, I don’t think he needs the barrel toss move imo because it just feels a bit forced into his moveset even if it’s an iconic part of his series.

[@waheedabdullah6371]

I would've changed his final smash to either Moon Punch or Robo Donkey Kong

[@keksidy]

I'd still prefer the Barrel Roll, but honestly I'd be happy with the Sonic Clap if we got that instead

[@smashers6971]

@@waheedabdullah6371 honestly the I had was him uppercutting the opponent and causing them to accidentally land onto the Banana hoard destroying some of the Bananas right infront of a furious DK who beats the tar out of the opponents before launching them out of the hoard with another uppercut.

[@smashers6971]

@@keksidy I just think it would be clunky for his Grappler design to give him a long range projectile imo.

[@castform7]

I thought this too. I've only played Tropical Freeze but that was his most recent game and he is very straight forward in that game. The only thing I feel like we're missing is the presence of some kind of barrel in his moveset but other than that, I'm not sure what you would do moveset wise to "modernize" DK. What I think they can do to make him feel less generic is *stop using these stock monkey sounds for him.* That's my biggest problem with him. DK has very distinct recognizable monkey sounds but it's never used over "big generic gorilla". It was fine in Melee but now I think it's gotten to the point where you should just give him his voice from the games he's in (same goes for Diddy and Bowser)

[@LionShard]

What I learned from this video is that Smash players are not used to characters having unique strengths and weaknesses.

[@michaelbecket4901]

Lol agreed people complain about macs flaws but… theres far worse characters such as olimar incineroar kazuya all of which have very deep flaws and in incineroars donkey kong and kazuyas case dont have the ground game mac has to make up for their flaws but instead rely on simple gimmicks that get spammed to shit and back

[@castform7]

I think Sonic's main and biggest problem is his speed ironically. He blitzes the second fastest character in the game. Accurate but not conducive to a healthy character when running away is the optimal option. I don't even think his moveset is that awful. People play up the ball but (not counting Down Throw) the only egregious one out of the 5 (yes he only has 5) is Side B which should probably be the boost at this point (non damaging move, of course). With one or two more move changes along with making Sonic *want* to fight you and bringing some more expression to his face, I think Sonic should be just fine.

[@jordanleon-guerrero6621]

One thing I thought of is to bring the mechanic from his early games where he games over if you took too long to finish. If time runs out in a competitive match (I was thinking this should only apply in 1v1 with no items and two min per stock at least), but if match goes to time, sonic would immediately lose. This would allow him to keep his defining super speed while also putting a risk to using to run away. This probably would encourage his opponents to try and camp him out, but I feel that sonic has plenty of tools to deal with it. I feel we already did something similar with Jigglypuff insta dying if her shield breaks.I do also agree that side b should be boost. But I feel timeouts being negative for sonic would encourage him to play more aggressively while not having to neuter his speed for balancing sake. Is it a bit of an extreme method? Yes, but his speed is also extreme and that is a defining characteristic of sonic and having another extreme to balance that huge bonus would be more fair.

[@jordanleon-guerrero6621]

Also make the man more expressive. He one of the most personable characters in his series and yet it barely show in his moveset. Let him pose after a successful homing shot. Give him facial expressions besides the smirk he constantly has. Little things like that to make him feel like a living being and not a dude in a mascot outfit which is how sonic feels in smash.

[@brandonwilliams6119]

@@castform7 Another thing that sucks about Sonic is there not being a single Ring referenced anywhere in Sonic’s moveset, taunts, stages or victory animations, meanwhile Mario gets to have Coins in his up b and on that NSMB2 stage where if you collect them you turn gold, the Ring SFX is a very iconic video game sound effect and it’s nowhere to be found, not even on Sonic’s Stages to collect for some cool fun power up or something. Oh and Castlevania gets have that Death Scythe item despite being a 3rd Party, yeah I know Pac-Man or rather Bamco has items too since they helped to develop Smash, but a Sonic item would’ve been cool too.

[@PopcornBunni]

His speed isn't particularly accurate to his games. Especially in the case of his 2D platformers, the speed he garners is meant to be gained through momentum. He has bad traction, bad accelleration, and bad air control because he is meant to get to his top speed and the challenge is to keep that speed though tight jump timing. The momentum aspect is lost entirely in Smash since he can just dash from 0-100 instantly and has insane priority on his burst movement-based attacks. With the way Smash handles running, though, it's virtually impossible to recreate. The best you could do is make his movement, specials, and jumps super committal by, for example, removing his ability to spin dash across the stage, jump, and then start a spindash again mid air to flinging across the stage the opposite way. Certain mods of other smash games do handle this particular aspect a little better. For example, Smash 64 Remix makes him only able to initiate his down-B spin dash in the same direction he's already facing, with the Melee Akaneia build following suit and making his Side-B a charged up Light Speed Dash ala Sonic Adventure 1. Couple changes to that strategy with making his air speed contingent on his grounded momentum into the jump with little wiggle room and his ability to play passively is weakened substantially.

[@quillion3rdoption]

He needs a bit more combo ability, but then again, what character doesn't?

[@Alibaba-id1cs]

5:53 heavily incorrect and Sephiroth’s honest issue is the fact that competitively wise he’s balanced. His speed and range making him oppressive to try and approach so having him be a tall easy character to combo is valid. The weight is much though id say it’s an oversight that can be midigated

[@gv82089]

I'd also say that the wing mechanics feels way too gimped. If he's gonna be a lighter character, I don't see the issue in him keeping the wing until he loses the stock

[@Alibaba-id1cs]

@@gv82089like if he gets a kill with an edgeguard and he loses his wing he can just die which is stupid Just let him keep it until he lands or is at like 150%

[@waffleking6474]

Yeah sephi is one of the few I disagree with being here. Agree with you, he’s too honest. I wish they buffed his weight. I’d be fine with sephiroth being much stronger. Very cool character.

[@SamuelJohnsonYT]

I think Sephiroth was only put in the game to make up for the lack of content FINAL FANTASY 7 had when Cloud got in the game because he only came with 2 songs

[@roxas0133]

This isn't a new topic, but Mii Swordfighter definitely is up there in bad design. While Brawler and Gunner have tools and moves that all make sense for the archetype they're going for, Swordfighter has less than average range, aerials that looks more like poking than slashing (which isn't what a Swordfighter should be), and specials that cater to more zoning than swordfighting, as good as those moves may be. When Miis return for Smash 6, Swordfighter should at least get a sword arc FAir.

[@Esperazura]

the worst part about him is how he's based off Link and not Marth who is the face of platform fighter swordfighters. Mii Swordfighter is just a worse version of young link and it's so sad because Swordfighter should be a spacer, not more aligned with being a zoner

[@dariuscox3576]

Yeah, I too wish that Mii Swordfighter was based more off of Marth than Link, IMO. He could’ve had a Marth-like Fair, a Marth-like Up Air, a downward thrust for a down air that ACTUALLY SPIKES, make him a bit faster on the ground, give him Marth’s tipper mechanic, and even a Side Special that resembles more like Dancing Blade (replace that god-awful Airborne Assault with it.) Make him feel like a TRUE text-book definition of a mid-ranged swordfighter who plays patiently and precisely space his attacks, not this weird stubby-ranged, grab-confirming, projectile-spamming sword-zoner hybrid design they were going for. Mii Swordfighter should also be using his SWORD more for his specials, instead of having him throw random objects at his opponent that don’t actually involve his sword at all.

[@michaelbecket4901]

Man its bizarre to see so many people hate mii swordfighter for genuinely being a unique and interesting sword fighter and NOT another marth clone is everyone really so butthurt he doesint function like marth they are willing to neglect all the positives with them Like u guys gonna ignore the fact the swordfighter has a reflector projectile and arguably the best Ariel moves of any sword fighter Who cares if he doesn’t slash and instead jabs and their range actually outranks many other sword fighters like all the links byleth etc do we REALLY need another marth clone?

[@HypeVoiceActing]

"Ever noticed how no one plays Banjo?" I guess I'm no one then ;-;

[@thevillipeople]

They’re my main! They could be the absolute worst in the game and they’d still be my top pick.

[@MegaMew204]

​@@thevillipeopleYeah but as a Mac main... I accept my place on the totem pole...

[@vrrfux4626]

Hi No one, I think your main is very cool👍

[@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821]

Greetings, no one, please keep spamming wonderwing into my Hero with an open command prompt, it'll work this time I promise.

[@freshnewcungadero]

Wario. Just Wario. My god, I can't even think about playing Smash Bros. without getting irrationally angry about how awful his moveset is. It baffles me at how Sakurai butchered his character from a greedy-strongman treasure hunter to a nothing but a farting joke.

[@Luis-yh9xd]

I know right, you would think that since Smash Bros is a platform fighting game, it make sense that Wario’s moveset should be inspired by the Wario Land series since they are platforming games after all, but for some reason they didn’t do that which is weird. Goes to show you that Wario Land will always be the black sheep of Nintendo platformers.

[@freshnewcungadero]

@@Luis-yh9xd Thankfully we have AntonBlast now. The fact that it managed to get onto the Switch is honestly a major fuck you to Nintendo and I’m glad that it’s gaining traction on the internet. ♥️💣💚

[@dariuscox3576]

@@freshnewcungadero I always pictured Wario (gameplay wise) to be a slow and hefty, but heavy-hitting grappler character with moves that pack a serious punch and throws that are on par with Incineroar in terms or how deadly they can be. But no. He doesn’t have any of this. This fat fuck has some of the highest air speed and air acceleration in the game for some reason, has moves that don’t looks like “strongman” attacks at all (seriously, why is forward air a weak, stubby kick instead of a dummy-strong downward punch akin to Dr. Mario or Banjo’s fair), and throws that are laughably weak and have no utility whatsoever, despite his games being heavily centered around grabbing and throwing his enemies around. Wario’s smash design seems so poorly though-out. No only does be barely represent the Wario Land series at ALL, he barely even represents WarioWare all that well, either. He moves are literally designed to just be offshoots of Mario’s attacks in Smash, which is clever, don’t get me wrong (even if this design philosophy caused him to get what is quite possibly the worst down smash in the whole game) but they could’ve done more with him. He is missing so many of his most well-known abilities from his home games that would’ve translated easily in Smash. The Earthshake Punch, his helmet powerups, his plethora of body transformations, his Wario World throws, the SHAKE, etc. The only thing he has is the Shoulder Tackle as his dash attack, the wild swing-ding as his back throw, and his bike. Every else he has is completely made up for Smash.

[@freshnewcungadero]

@@dariuscox3576 Damn. You explained it better than I could. The only thing I will add is that his back throw is a laughably pathetic rendition of the Wild Swingding from WarioWorld, as you could move Wario around slightly as you swung the enemy you had grabbed. He would spin around like a top, with MULTIPLE spins. But in Smash, it’s one of the weakest back throws in the game, and his end lag often means your getting hit back anyways. Don’t get me started on his dash attack, as so many moronic Sakurai apologists seem to think that because he has his shoulder charge now, it automatically means both franchises are represented equally. BUT WARIO’S DASH ATTACK IN SMASH IS BARELY HOW IT FUNCTIONS IN EVERY OTHER GAME HES IN WHERE HE USES IT. Like, in WarioLand 4, you could jump and change how far you went while charging forward. In WarioLand: Shake it, you could cancel his regular Shoulder Bash into a ball roll down slopes, or even quickly body slide on the ground to sneak under ledges. BUT in Smash, all he can do is weakly slump forward with way too much end lag, and half the time IT DOESN’T EVEN KILL CONFIRM. Im sorry for ranting, because I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said, but even thinking about how Smash Ultimate pointlessly butchered so many of my favorite characters enrages me even just thinking about it.

[@Shyguymask]

17:57 This is why I lost interest in playing G&W after maining him in Brawl and Sm4sh. Sure, he got stronger, but at the same time it mostly felt like it came from cheap-ish spammable moves to the point he made me feel more carried than satisfied or skilled when playing him.

[@justice8718]

I hate how much it reflects his tournament performances. Hurt, BeastModePaul, Tweek, and Light get nothing from calling the character out unless it’s a simple kill move or kill confirm, and if you dare counter play him with projectiles, you lose your stock stupidly early because Bucket isn’t properly nerfed to account how unfair and unhinged his close-up game is. Up-air, up-b, chef, and down-b should be nerfed if they want anyone to actually have fun fighting him.

[@Neoxon619]

While I do feel a little called out as a Min Min main, I completely get it. Especially considering that you can’t stop her limbs by hitting them like you can in ARMS. Funny enough, my pitch for Twintelle before we even knew that we were getting an ARMS character was to have the extending lives be only mapped to specials while the standard attacks were more normal (since Twintelle still had her actual normal arms & is canonically a bodybuilder). As for Lucario’s play rate, while you’re generally right in this specific case, popular characters can sometimes be not played all that often. Chun-Li for example is generally the middle of the pack when it comes to player usage in Street Fighter 6, & Menat was barely used at all in SFV despite her popularity. And with Little Mac, I always imagined him fighting more like an out boxer (Ex: Ed) with how Punch-Out has always been about weaving your opponent as you learn their patterns & punish accordingly.

[@King90983]

@@Neoxon619 stop the yap

[@thatonestarmanintorobotics4319]

​@@King90983dude come on

[@King90983]

@@thatonestarmanintorobotics4319 Im saying it to every one I felt like being a dick today

[@mrshmuga9]

If you could stop her limbs by hitting them, she’d be a useless character and never get hits in. She might as well not have arms/hands at all. Plus you only get hit once, so it’s not like you’re being pummeled from a distance. Getting caught in Ness’ PK Thunder or PK Fire is way more annoying. If you’re caught in PK Fire, they’re close enough to get a smash attack on you while you’re essentially paralyzed. If Min Min hits you, she can only get one other arm punch attack in, and it has to be one that can reach the same distance. She’s also not good up close. If she misses, she’s a sitting duck and can easily get hit.

[@vanessasandoval96]

But I honestly love Min Min even playing against her and playing as her so smash 6 is still Min Min with Spring Man and Twintelle

[@shanks950]

L on Hero and Sephiroth takes They’re some of the most fun characters in the game.

[@AndreBabani]

sephiroth sure, but heros language barrier is a big deal. How can you fight him if you cant read his menu? I'd make it so the spells are colour coded and have some kind of icon next to it so everybody can understand. Other than that though? Yeah he's pretty fun.

[@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821]

@@AndreBabani Honestly, color coding would help everybody, even if you can read the menus. Having an extra signal to my brain screaming "Don't hit that button, thats Kamikaze!" would be rather helpful in not accidentally exploding.

[@saicams]

I do think Banjo needs some tweaks, but I feel the hate is a bit overblown and often comes from people who expected the dlc characters to be nothing but gimmicks

[@jamesp2595]

17:50 Thank you for mentioning this. People who claim that Steve is worse than Bayo or Meta Knight are crazy.

[@waheedabdullah6371]

What I don't get is why couldn't Corrin's victory animations referenced all 3 paths?: First victory animation has the Hoshido siblings praising Corrin and Corrin would say something like, "Let us bring peace for Hoshido!" Second victory animation can have all the Nohr siblings praising Corrin and Corrin would say, "For the glory of Nohr!" And the final victory animation has both Hoshido and Nohr siblings praising Corrin and Corrin would say, "Just like my fate, I have chosen my own victory!"

[@MrJhwan]

male corrin has the most derp voice line in the game in his victory screen. The "I wiiiiin" makes me burst out laughing every time.

[@squallleonhart9387]

Ehh who cares about Corrin of all characters, they were only a DLC for their time of being the current FOTM protagonist, they will likely get replaced with a new FE protagonist. Delzethin should make a video about Smash’s music selection and point out all the 4 “Lost in thoughts all alone” tracks as a joke because that’s all the music fates ever got lol

[@Andypatino7612]

To be honest, no one cares about Corrin 😔

[@LimitlessZspeed]

In all honesty, you can Replace 2 of them…But let the Dragon Victory screen stay, I think that just look sick when Corrin does that.

[@nascour5991]

you're right I really hope they reference the incest too that was my favourite part of the rebirth ;)

[@Sean_Bird]

Donkey Kong being here is a really confusing pick to me, especially when taking into account your Remake It episode on him. You didn’t really change that much of his moveset there, as you mainly focusing on updating his current tools he’s always had, and you even moved some of his old moves around and added back in an older Smash original move he lost back into his moveset. That’s not a slight against that rework, I still quite like it and think it was a great concept for an update for him, I just feel your stance on him here kinda contradicts what you’ve made for him in the past. I definitely don’t think DK is as outdated as the rest of the other picks there.

[@castform7]

I was thinking the same thing. It's okay if he's had a change of heart but I still wouldn't personally say DK is all that bad of characters when it comes to representing themselves. Yeah, DK's moves don't take from his games but I'm not really sure of what we're missing outside of a barrel move of some sort.

[@wootmasterzorsx]

5:44 Alright, I can’t help but laugh from this scene. I can’t speak for most of these characters- I’m a casual person who mostly focuses on the characters I like and plays casually with friends. I would appreciate the older veterans getting modernized like DK and Ganondorf. The one change I really want, though, is DK getting his voice from the games. They had DK’s voice actor record new lines for Ultimate! He was right there to give DK his actual voice! And I cannot in any regard agree with Sakurai- when a character has eyes popping out of their head in a very cartoony manner, they get a cartoony voice because a realistic gorilla voice to make him intimidating DOES NOT work. Yes, it’s a small thing that doesn’t affect gameplay, but it shows an entire lack of awareness of the character as he is now. Also, yes, I would love to see a Best Designed characters video. Would be nice to follow the negative with the positive, and see which of the cast best embody what they are for Smash and their home games. …Oh, and Ness’ PK Fire is INFURIATING. I stopped online Smash against randoms ENTIRELY back in 4 because of it, and Ultimate shows it’s still obnoxious.

[@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821]

I'm not going to lie, and I really do hate having to say this, but minor skill issue. Ness is one of those characters that forces you to play a bit slower than usual, play around his whims. Understandably not fun if you aren't used to the matchup. I get a ton of practice against Ness since my friend plays him, and it does take time to figure out the matchup. Mostly, its just approaching with shield and punishing with out-of-shield options. Alternatively, spam harder than the Ness can (Character Dependant).

[@wootmasterzorsx]

@@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821 I mean, I DID say I am a casual player. Also, the bulk of your reply is very insightful and respectable… so the “minor skill issue” thing is really unnecessary.

[@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821]

@wootmasterzorsx Ah, do forgive me. I got used to the general communities attitude being to complain in circles while practically ignoring advice, so I suppose I just naturally assume bad faith reactions at all turns.

[@infernolotl4577]

I completely agree with your thoughts on Donkey Kong and honestly I wish bowser had his voice from the games too, it would be so much better!

[@wootmasterzorsx]

@@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821 It’s fine, I very much appreciate the advice. I will admit, given my casual play style, I’m not super likely to put it in practice, but I still am more than willing to accept the advice. And again, I really appreciate hearing all this, since learning to improve is important, even for a casual player like me. I’ve played against friends and my brother plenty and had to learn to play around their play styles. And I have definitely improved from the days when I could never win against some of them.

[@CarbonMalite]

My issue with Samus is that they make every aspect of fighting her a weighted guessing minigame, from neutral to advantage+disadvantage. With Dread's moveset I feel like she could be a fun mid to close-range zoner that focuses on pressuring from range and skillfully parrying any close-range pressure against her. I've never liked this hyper-defensive character that gets rewarded even when she fails to zone.

[@nathanskretkowicz4705]

Am I the only one with a problem with Mewtwo? I like Mewtwo's movement but my main problem lies with Mewtwo's side and down special. Both down special and side are both close range generic status effects. And I cant find any concepts that change Mewtwo's moveset. And its not as if in game psyshic Pokemon use only psychic moves, maybe Mewtwo's could get a few other type moves. Maybe one of Mewtwo's smash attack could be Mewtwo's psychically lifting up a rock or boulder? Or maybe even a fire move?

[@Right_Bumper]

No, Ive stated before how much I’ve hated Mewtwo’s Smash design The 7ft tall Pokemon that canonically weighs over 200lbs is Pikachu weight despite having a massive secondary hitbox His dair spike hitbox is pathetic Lack of decent type variety I feel like he has way too many attacks with his tail His special attack is higher yet his heavy hitting moves are almost all physical attacks

[@fellowcrayon981x4]

What do you mean? All his Smash Attacks are psychic based. Down B is Psychic based and combos out of footstool. Shadow ball is a ghost type move, only his down throw is physical. The rest are all grabbed and thrown by psychic energy. Only most of his aerials and normals are physical, which is pretty normal in a game. Non of his specials are physical, Jab is technically magic(psychic based) too.

[@fellowcrayon981x4]

His Forward Air is a psychic attack too.

[@nathanskretkowicz4705]

I just feel like Mewtwo was made too basic and bland. I guess I am wrong about the move typing, but I still think Mewtwo has a high potential to be a more unique character, but Pokemon tend to not get the best representation. I don't think the Smash Mewtwo represents Mewtwo that well.

[@RILEYSWORLD1]

18:01 Delzethin: Mr. Game & Watch has became a Problem Also Delzethin a Year Ago: *Puts G&W on the S Tier in the Design Tier List*

[@grunkleg.2934]

I bet there will be at least 3 characters from Fighters Pass 2. After watching the video, I was right. You could've easily slotted Pythra in as well. Actually a lot of characters in Ultimate are designed really poorly, and frankly I don't have much hope for most of them improving in Smash 6

[@ToadetteTails6969]

Min Min, Steve and Sephiroth were there. So congrats, you're correct.

[@King90983]

@@grunkleg.2934 stop the yap did I ask

[@brandonwilliams6119]

Steve is the greater of the evils, I can’t believe Sakurai had to retool every stage just for one character gimmick.

[@Andypatino7612]

Blame the guy who told Sakurai to add Steve in Smash. It basically forces him to add him to the game.

[@Neoxon619]

@@ToadetteTails6969 Also Kazuya

[@nathanantonio6195]

As soon as I saw the title of the video, I knew Sonic was going to be on here somewhere, I did not expect him to be the absolute worst designed character. So much missed potential with his moveset.

[@Bladebrent]

3:52 okay I will defend Hero since Arguably the RNG focus making it less competitive is the focus. Its fun for people like me to just throw Hero on for a match and just throw out spells at random and see what works. That being said, I can't say much on how it represents the Dragon Quest games. My thought was they were worried about Hero looking "boring" to non-JRPG fans (particularly the ones complaining about 'generic swordies') So they offset it with a crazy gimmick. I'm fine with Hero's kit as it is now but I can see the argument that it doesnt fit them. 6:49 also small disagree but just on Up special. The high jump makes no sense as an aerial move and Kazooie specifically has a flying move that would've made more sense. Its still weird that Sakurai didnt do that instead but its ultimately pretty minor. Personally, my least favorite design is Byleth, and ironically, she's from the only Fire Emblem game I've played. I love Roy, and I like playing Lucina, Robin and even Corrin, but Byleth's design felt like the devs didnt trust the whip sword + Divine pulse to placate people so they gave her a big gimmick of using weapons on each button for no other reason than "now you cant say she's JUST a swordie." IMO, the kit doesnt represent Byleth well at all. Its the same thing I said for Hero's kit but Hero's feels more justified as a guest and being such an influential character. I think Byleth's kit would've been fine if it was just the sword of the creator because the main people who'd complain are the people who just hate she has a sword at all *OR* if they picked literally any of 3 house leaders for the slot instead; but Sakurai and Nintendo refuse to pick anyone but the protagonist for some reason unless they can be a clone.

[@mrshmuga9]

I like Hero, but I also think he’d be a bit lame if he only had 4 options for spells. Sure, I’d probably cut out some because there’s a bunch that are virtually useless other than seemingly referencing the games, but I like having an assortment. If you want to have the more uber powerful ones around you could just make them less likely. I can understand some extent to videos like this. You don’t want broken characters (weak or overpowered), but I’m also not crazy about people thinking the competitive community should essentially be in charge. They’ll optimize the uniqueness or fun aspects out of things because they aren’t perfectly balanced.

[@squallleonhart9387]

It’s crazy how it took Ganondorf until Ultimate to use his sword and even then those sword attacks are copypasted Ike and Cloud Smash Attacks, with the same Captain Falcon with Dark Flames Moveset.

[@quillion3rdoption]

The Smash team ain't gonna waste time re-animating individual moves in an already perfectly good moveset.

[@KevSB07]

@@quillion3rdoptionthat moveset has a few iconic pieces but it is one of among the least “perfect” in this game

[@quillion3rdoption]

@@KevSB07 Ganondorf uses brawling attacks canonically and had his sword added. What else does he even need?

[@Right_Bumper]

@@quillion3rdoptionHe’s not a goddamn Captain Falcon ripoff, he has a character. He’s not gonna throw out random punches and kicks like he does in Smash

[@Ninjaananas]

​@@quillion3rdoption Ganondorf barely uses brawling moves in his games. He mostly relies on weapons and magic.

[@XBC3403]

not that i don't think sonic couldn't get some updates. but it gets pretty frustrating always hearing the "multiple moves as a ball" criticism. there are only about 6 moves including throws that feature him attacking via his spinball form. Nair, Usmash, N special, S special, D special, and D throw. a vast majority of his attacks are punches, kicks, or some other method of attacking. plus his spinball is his primary way of attacking throughout most of the games. complaining that Sonic has multiple moves attacking as a ball is like complaining that a character like Link has multiple moves attacking with a sword. of course he shouldn't have spindash take up two move slots, but to conflate that to "too many ball moves in general" is frustrating.

[@Isun-u1q]

I agree that argument never made sense to me

[@Right_Bumper]

Doesn’t really change anything. Also note that 2 of his specials are the exact same move literally copied and pasted. Sonic’s used so many abilities over his 30+ years of being a gaming icon yet nothing from his modern games are used Those were only really his primary ways of attacking in his classic games

[@LG555]

​@@Right_Bumperthe problem with Sonics abilities is that they are not consistent. He constantly changes his moveset. His most consistent moves are Spin Dash, the Homing Attack and the Boost, 2 of which are in his Smash moveset. How much of Sonic Frontiers abbilities will come back, so you can put into Smash without it becoming outdated the next game. Mario has the problem of outdated moves with Fludd and Cape, but that won't be fixed by adding Cappy, since I am pretty sure Cappy won't return in the next 3d Mario.

[@Right_Bumper]

@@LG555 They barely added Cappy, he's in like 2 animations and you can barely see him in one of them

[@LG555]

@@Right_Bumper I meant, in how some people add him into Mario's moveset.

[@King90983]

Even as a Luigi main, he should 100% be on this list. He is a one sided character like sonic. He is fun to play as but not at all to play against. Especially when your stock spontaneous combusts because you get grabbed at zero. Although coming into this smash game I wished he would be more viable, I would have not wanted it to be like this.

[@Alonzone]

Here’s how you beat Sonic. Take the first stock before he can. If you fail, you lose.

[@castform7]

Personally, I find Kirby's moveset fine. I think the amount of abilities he reps right now are are good (not to mention the free extra ability in the form of another character's neutral B and he does great for what a beginner character. I don't even remember that many changes from the "Remake It" you made on him. I would change a thing or two (Up B is awful as both a representation of Cutter and a showcase of recovery) but mostly I'm fine with him. He fills the role he's in well.

[@ScrubReborn]

PM did his up special great; you got a side cutter to go with the normal one. I'd just make that official. Also people miss a lot of his standard attacks are already references; specifically to the fighter ability. And since Smash is a fighting series, yeah, of course he'd use that ability to fight mostly. Not sure what people really expect there. I'll say though, his slide from most Kirby games should probably be in there somewhere, but that's about it.

[@castform7]

@@ScrubReborn Actually that's a common misconception. Kirby only has 2 moves referencing Fighter, Jab and F Smash. Any others may look similar to moves Fighter would get in Kirby's Return to Dreamland but that game came out long after Kirby basically had all his moves.

[@rodrickgoldberg2324]

I personally don’t think Little Mac is that bad. Sure, it’s a mashup of extremes and they could definitely stand to use Star Punch instead of KO. But I think the design lines up with his home series. He’s all about fancy footwork, waiting for an opening, then hitting as fast and hard as possible against physically superior opponents. His aerial mobility and attack power can be buffed a little if absolutely necessary. But otherwise? I say he’s perfectly fine. But if there’s anyone who should have been in this video, it should be Dark Pit and Dark Samus. Just because they’re doppelgängers in concept, doesn’t give the devs an excuse to just make them echo fighters when they have whole arsenals to work with and set them apart from their original rivals. Pittoo had so many weapons to use for completely different side and down specials thanks to Uprising. And has Dark Samus even used missiles or bombs like the real Samus? Phazon gave the Metroid Prime so much potential to work with, and the devs just through it all down the toilet.

[@LG555]

You know, what Dark Pit and Samus would be, if they were not Echo Fighter? NOT IN SMASH! How is that still a concept people are missing?

[@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821]

yeah, big agree with LG555 on that. The whole argument against Echoes has always been incredibly dumb. They are quite literally designed to be roster filler, or flavor, or whatever. If Dark Pit vanished, it's not like we would get another full fighter in his place. That being said, I think their choice of Echo was questionable there, Dixie Kong would have been 10 times cooler.

[@justinnzamora5366]

I know I'm not the first person in the comments to mention this, but Olimar being omitted entirely from the video is a huge surprise. The diminutive astronaut basically shares all the negative traits of that iconic blue hedgehog. Also, when are you going to make more tier lists of Smash character designs starting with Brawl's newcomers?

[@yungmuney5903]

No the fuck he does not. Olimar can't time out games with uncommital hyperspeed.

[@maximus4765]

I don't think a character feeling old in design is a bad thing. They're simple and easy to understand, Ultimate's newcomers tend to be more complex and that isn't always a good thing. I feel like if they changed DK's moveset, without Sakurai we'd just get retro era moves.

[@paj5529]

Its not a design flaw! Its a feature!

[@OniiChanPls]

Everyone always talks about the worst characters design wise but hearing about the best designed ones would be refreshing

[@taghreedali1948]

5:44 I like the reference to the Mario and Luigi vs Sephiroth meme

[@snuffysam]

I’ve seen a few videos that try to rank the worst designed characters in Ultimate, and ehh… idk about conflating “is currently top/bottom tier & could use tuning” or “could benefit from one move being swapped out” with “the concept fundamentally doesn’t work”. Like, if this video was made in Brawl, people would be saying that Pokémon Trainer is one of the worst Smash designs ever, there’s just no reason to use most of the kit, multi-form characters simply don’t work in a platform fighter. But by changing literally two minor mechanics, they suddenly jumped to one of the coolest designs in all platfighters. Idk. I see this all the time with actively-updated competitive games too, where the player base correctly identifies what isn’t fun but vastly overstates (or in some cases, understates lol) how much of an overhaul is needed.

[@marcelopaulo446]

He seriously made Mario & Luigi fight sephiroth

[@Dionaea_floridensis]

If 40-60% of the roster got cut in the next game BUT: A) we got robust online infrastructure B) Long, satisfying single player story with character interactions C) move set reworks for veterans D) engine overhaul to allow for more player expression I'd be totally happy with that

[@EidinAegis]

Where's Olimar, broski? All this blud does his run away and throw pikmin, fishing for purples to win games with no one wanting to play as or against him, completely unfaithful to his portrayal in the Pikmin franchise. And then spams smash attacks because of course he can. And why does a feeble and tiny character like Olimar get a frame 2 super armor move he can spam to get out of a jam? Just why is that a thing. And about Left Splits Kick-- The zoners that should be afraid of this move usually have control over their projectiles or can easily dodge the reflected projectiles since it's a committal, grounded reflector on a non-special move. That kind of design does not work for Ness and Lucas for example, where they don't have time to pull it off and get rewarded for as they have magnets instead. And Min Min's Up Smash being a reflector isn't so bad when you consider the fact that it's on her main out of shield option and it's got similar problems to Left Splits Kick and the Baseball Bat swings in that they are committal (unless you're Lucas but even he doesn't use it very often.), grounded reflector moves not put onto special moves, which execute the reflector concept better since they don't have to rely on being grounded and are still fair while being commonly used from time to time. With the spacies having the best execution for them unlike Min Min, Kazuya, and the PK kids. That of course doesn't mean the characters who have them aren't justifed of your placements. Just addressing a common complaint about Min Min's Up Smash and Kazuya's Left Splits Kick.

[@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821]

Okay lets be fair here. He doesnt JUST fish for purple. Also fishing for them Blue pikmin grabs..

[@EidinAegis]

@@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821 Oh right, those Pikmin too.

[@thekingedofjay1142]

Tbh I would add wario to this list honestly

[@antoniacorrales9148]

Wario has always been HORRIBLE in smash and as a wario fan I wish he was much stronger. Yoshi and Mario have more KP than wario, the character known for being stronger than both.

[@sagegang6957]

​@@antoniacorrales9148wario doesn't really lack kill power? He has a reliable kill confirm and solid finishing moves as well as much better air speed and good ways to rack up damage. He was good in brawl and in ult he's definitely very strong.

[@quillion3rdoption]

It's great that this moveset discussion is holistically focused around gameplay function, source reference, and balance alike! I'm not a fan of moveset discussion that's only focused on one of those three things.

[@icenovice]

TBF R.O.B.'s design makes sense because he's a robot. He's good at everything, but only one thing at a time, and he's big 'n' clunky. He's probably the most sensibly-designed top-tier in Ultimate, and that's SAYING SOMETHING about the other top-tiers.

[@RegalRuffRaff]

Imo Maypul in Rivals of Aether is exactly what Sonic should be. Fast, will combo you back and forth, and generally built around chasing opponents down.

[@ShineStarWind]

I'd argue with Yoshi being poorly aged as someone who mained him in every game. In his home games, his tongue is one of his most unique gameplay aspects where there are a number of things you can do with it (make and collect eggs, hold in and move around, reach certain platforms, eat certain projectiles) but in Smash it's his most umderbaked feature. If they gave more options with Egg Lay and maybe even a zair, it'd capture his games a lot better.

[@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821]

Giving Yoshi a zair feels like the most obvious thing, I wonder how they managed to miss that.

[@ScrubReborn]

I don't think he's poorly aged per say, I think most of his kit works and he's clearly meant as a simpler character, but the lack of a zair and the fact he can't eat projectiles/items with neutral B are both really glaring and he should definitely get both. Other than that, not sure how you could include stuff like egg collecting without making it overtly complicated for a character like him. I feel him laying his opponent as a egg for Neutral B and throwing eggs in up B covers those bases well enough. Something I'm surprised you didn't mention tho is his Side B. No character should have a filler move that's completely useless like that, it's just a dead button rn.

[@DauntlessBlade___]

Now I kind of want to see the best designed characters low key I think that would be interesting

[@CinnaSwirls]

I always think Steve is the worst until I remember, oh yeah, Sonic plays nothing like how Sonic would want to play a match. The only thing I can say about it that even comes close to the games is that it mimics boss fights in which Sonic has to wait for an opening and capitalize on it, and then go back to waiting and dodging. But we all know these bosses are the things Sonic fans don't look forward to in his games, we'd rather be fighting the second fight against Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2. I really hope they round him out next time.

[@GodOfThings]

I know he has fans outside of the competitive scene, but Kazuya needs to go when Smash 6 rolls around. He feels like the epitome of 'the fighting game guy' even more than Ryu does, and he just isn't fun to watch in competitive matches since he's so oppressive but also so predictable.

[@quillion3rdoption]

He just needs his "tradfighter" aspects toned way down IMO.

[@antoniacorrales9148]

Either nerf him or give us heihachi

[@yuvenluma9564]

I would probably add Shiek. A combo charakter who can`t make combos because of ingame mechanics or gimmicks of his opponents. Like Rage don`t help her, the oppenent can be to heavy, can be to floaty, can have an instant super armor double jump >.> . And everytime she trade its just a loss for the Shiek Player. Yeah I know a combo charakter is hard to balance and there are some incredible Shiek Players. But still she feels kinda akward for me.

[@LightningStarSC]

Honestly speaking, I seriously find Joker qualifying as toxic as well. He feels like he embodies Luigi's brand of toxicity, just with the guns, curses, and Arsene instead of the grab game. At least for Fighter's Pass 1, it almost felt like there was a bit of bias leaking into his design compared to anyone else in the pass. That said, I can admit that Fighter's Pass 2 put him to shame with Kazuya getting everything and more in his moveset and Steve having the devs alter the game's stage code to accommodate the most unfair mechanic in Smash history, which can even be abused to cancel knockback. Also, Piranha Plant has to be the record setter for its novelty wearing off. It stopped feeling fun to fight against or as it after a few months (at most a year if I'm being as generous as possible). If anything, its inclusion should render "Hat Goomba" allegations against Bandana Waddle Dee null & void.

[@brandonwilliams6119]

Joker is just Sheik with and temporary Ganondorf stand and embodies the Lucario schtick of getting rewarded for getting your butt kicked.

[@AndreBabani]

I... disagree. joker is not similar to luigi at all. Sure arsene is annoying and he's a bit overtuned, but its not bad design, hes just a good character.

[@Alibaba-id1cs]

His comeback mechanic is more balanced than most of the dlc and the counterplay is interactive

[@justice8718]

@@Alibaba-id1cs People simply hate it when Joker uses Arsene well despite it actually not being unfair at all.

[@SuperCrazyfin]

While Hero is possibly badly executed, I think hes one of the most fun characters to play on this list. Casually having a character thats so unpredictable is so fun, and he also doesnt bring down the game competitively because his best options are inconsistent, and therefore you dont really have to camp him out like with Little Mac. In fact he heavily encourages engagement since most of his options are slow and need time to be read. Obviously this isnt the best for the player but if they chose Hero they knew what they were getting intom.

[@YujiUedaFan]

I wish they'd re-add the moveset options from Smash 4, but re-work it so it can be used in competitive. The issue is that Sakurai stated once a character is in a Smash game, their movesets can't be reworked in any major way. It's why Ganondorf gets about one change to his moveset per game. It's also why Sonic has mostly just cloned moves and spin dash, despite having 2 fighting games to work off of. I'd honestly re-work the whole system so it's more like 4, but the alt moves aren't something you have to unlock or banned from competitive. I'd also rework some older/rushed Smash characters from the ground up (Sonic, Samus, Ganondorf, Kirby ect...). Finally, add their old moves from Smash 1-U as alts so if you don't like a newer move, you can always swap back. That way they retain their classic movesets without holding them back at the same time.

[@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821]

I don't hate it, but also you have to be comically careful with how you implement that. The only reason people don't hate the Miis more than they already do is because most of them aren't great. Brawler is the only one I ever see competitively. But yeah, atleast regaining older moves could be interesting.

[@nobb1980]

I think Pyra\Mythra deserve to be here. I think that they are designed to cover each other’s weaknesses so well, they essentially don’t have one. Not to mention they are overturned at what each of them does anyway. I’d argue they are to ultimate what cloud was to smash 4, but because they don’t have an explosive gimmick they are not as talked about. Mythra is so incredibly fast with such good framedata and a sword, and witch time for some reason, so they can get you to mid to high percents for almost free, and then switch to mythra with extremely large and powerful hit boxes with way to many active frames and no sour spots. Not to mention how they have a lot of moves that hit multiple times that rely on knockback stunning you that just isn’t fun to play against. It’s too much. Not to mention that because their recovery is bad they can say “well the characters balanced actually because we can’t recover” which is a horrible mindset because it feels trash for the character trying to recover because not being able to get back sucks, and the opponent has to deal with an overly oppressive on stage game. It kind of similar to mac in that way. It feels like you have to eclipse your opponent in skill by a significant margin to even have a fair chance at that match because the characters is so oppressive, and I feel that is bad design.

[@kingnewcomer2029]

Sweet! I always love it when you tap into something different, and I'm happy to see you address some of the most poorly designed Moveset in Great Fray Smash Brothers Special, and you've already done several remake Videos fixing them like 1 Bad Execution (with Little Mac's upcoming Remake It Video, making him 2 of BE), all of Poorly Aged, half of Toxic Opponents, The Worst, and 1 Honorable Mention, with Samus actually being your very first RI Video (hard to believe it's already been almost 3 years since this series began, and that you already made 13, with 14 not to far ahead from now)! It is sad to see that several of Special's Fighters have ended up being either underpowered like Hero (I still HATE their English Spell names with a burning passion, like seriously, who the hell came up with these names when translating them? Did a 4-year-old come up with the garbage English ones when they were translating them from their original, vastly superior Japanese names, or something? But I seriously digress), Sephiroth, Lucario, and Little Mac, to missed opportunity ones like Samus Aran, Kirby, Ganondorf (or "Falcondorf" as you've called him, which is hilarious, and true (sadly)), and Donkey Kong, to extremely polarizing ones like Luigi, Min Min, Kazuya Mishima, and Steve, to the absolute worst of the worst being of course Sonic The Hedgehog, as well as others like Dr. Mario, Princess Zelda, Banjo & Kazooie, Robot, and Mr. Game & Watch, and it's even more of a shame that when COVID happened right at the very beginning of Fighter Pass 2 the developers had even less to fix many of these issues... Hopefully whenever Smash 6 comes, they'll FINALLY take into account, and update several of these Movesets that have needed fixing BADLY. I agree with all 18 Fighters mentioned in the Video, and I think a couple more characters to include in HM would be the Mother boys, Ness, and Lucas as they've become infamous for spamming their PK Fires. I'd also pick Inkling for BE due to them using their limbs to attack, and even grab opponents when they could never do that in Splatoon, Link for PA since hardly any Breath Of The Wild source material was used like not using Parasail from BOTW as his new Up Special, and just keeps his terrible spin sword attack, Koopa for PA since several of his unique attacks like his old Back Aerial, and Front Smash replaced with generic kicks, Wario for PA since several of his Moves feel like a rip-off of Mario's Moveset, and not the greddy anti-hero we all know, and love, Mario for PA as while nowhere near as poorly aged as other veterans, I do still feel like he's missing key features from his series, at the very least include his iconic Hip Drop that he's had since his 3D inception for his new Down Aerial, Princess Daisy for PA since she's mostly just a clone of Peach with very small differences, and not her own unique Moveset, Gaogaen for using mostly generic wrestling abilities, and several of them feeling like direct copies of King K. Roll, and I believe they could've used more scratches for their attacks since they're a feline Pokemon, and many others, but I don't wanna be here all day. XD Anyway, another great Video once again, Del! I always enjoy it when you do different things every now, and then! And yeah, I totally be down with you doing a follow-up video talking about Special's best designed characters, I mean after all it only makes sense (also hope that the X Design Tier List Video is finally coming at some point as it's been over a year since the Deluxe Video)! Look forward to the next RI Video, and future Videos from you!

[@King90983]

I’m betting $1000 that either min min or Steve is on this list

[@Neoxon619]

@@King90983 SPOILERS . . . . . . . . . . . It’s both

[@SuperMarioFan123311]

Pac-Man has it far worse than Sonic. 75% of his moveset and representation isn’t even for his own franchise.

[@SaddieMoon]

This is one of the reasons I don’t want Shadow to be Sonic’s echo. Because he either embodies the same problems as Sonic, or fixes Sonic’s problems. But doesn’t apply them to Sonic to prevent alienating Sonic players.

[@SaddieMoon]

Another reason why Sonic’s moveset is so bland with the amount of ball moves, is because wanted to replicate the simplicity of Sonic 1. Not having much variation and his game plan being very simple.

[@riboiman4005]

I bet Sonic is barely going to change in Smash 6, mainly due to the fact that mods and fangames (examples include Project + and SSF2) are the ones reworking Sonic's moveset to be more healthy for the game. Considering Nintendo's despise for mods, they will probably (if they haven't already) shy away from the things that could make him a much more welcoming character to the cast.

[@erickmaverick3128]

For Banjo-Kazooie, they are a bit of a mixed bag, and this is coming from someone who requested them and play as them. There are some moves that make sense, and others that don't. For instance, why isn't the Pack Whack Banjo's Down Smash? The Ratatat Rap could've worked as both a F-Air and B-Air. The Beak Bomb could've been an excellent Side B, with WonderWing as a Down B counter, as least that how I would envision them.

[@brandonwilliams6119]

Wait a minute Banjo with a Down B Counter that activates the Wonderwing? I’m just curious because Down B Counters have become lazy ways of designing characters heck not even Sora could escape the Down B Counter curse.

[@gilbertguerrero2916]

All they have to do to fix Ganon’s design is to make black shadow an echo of falcon so he can inherit the current moveset with tweaks. And then for Ganon himself, using attacks/techniques from his boss fights and incorporating that in his moveset. (Floating, weaponry, reflecting/casting projectiles.)

[@Monafide3305]

It has to be Sonic for me. The entire representation of the Sonic franchise in Smash seems not to understand any of the series' appeal in the first place, pulling most prominently from games that aren't representative of the series today (Sonic 1 and Sonic Lost World stages, cut down vocal tracks, complete lack of personality or edge). I almost think the entire moveset is unsalvageable, I'd rather they start from scratch barring maybe a couple of the specials. The current moveset and stages are almost disrespectful of Sonic's legacy as a platforming mascot compared to a character like Banjo which, despite the lacking moveset, feels filled with love and care for the original franchise. He was a rushed character before movesets were this complicated, but it has been far too long.

[@aidamac4288]

You mentioned Samus, but man, Zero Suit Samus is practically a Smash OC at this point. Those glowing high heels are one of the dumbest ideas they’ve ever had…

[@DWN037]

If it were up to me to redesign Min Min (as someone who plays both games), I'd give her arms health to discourage spam (like belly armor, except with much less total health that regenerates over time), nerf their BASE damage/knockback (as well as give them damage falloff for long-range hits), and change down-B to a move that charges the arms instead of switching between them. The real challenge of fighting in the original game is keeping your arms charged to boost their damage and elemental effects, and getting into positions that are safe enough that you can charge your arms and dodge punches but still close enough that you can land a hit. A good design for Min Min should play more like a boxer character and less like a zoner. You could still keep in the swapping arms mechanic if you really want, but I would map it to shield-B instead of down-B (If you want to be really unique, make it depend on which way she's facing to switch either of her arms), or I'd make it a special input at the very start of a stock.

[@levimilk]

Woof. Theres alot to unpack here. Good video, feel like someone needs to counter point some of this!

[@SCHNAND3RS0N]

I’d 100% be interested to see your take on the best-designed fighters! Your analysis here was quite comprehensive, I think, so yes please do that👍🏻

[@jamesonsmoogle7407]

KAZUYA CAN JUST IGNORE MOST HITS??

[@goGothitaLOL]

He has Bowser’s Tough Guy, and then some He deadass makes Bowser look bad in comparison

[@ThiefofRPGistheWanderingSoul]

Absolutely would be curious to here your thoughts on the best characters in the game.

[@Yosh032]

Honestly surprised Ness isn’t on this list. Given that about 3 of his moves are things that he actually does in his home series, combined with the fact that his moveset ends up being extremely Campy and Spammy *cough cough* PK Fire. I’d understand if he was supposed to represent his entire Earthbound party, but the fact that his party members now actively appear and contribute in his final smash it makes no sense that Ness is the one who performs the special moves, despite not doing most of them in Earthbound. Given that in modern smash we have quite a few more characters who represent RPG Magic Users (Hero, Robin, etc) it feels like an ample opportunity to edit Ness’ Moveset to better fit his RPG Archetype, as a more Tanky Support characters who’s better adept in inflicting Status Conditions and setting up Healing and Shields.

[@toonishigh]

These video's are written and edited like WatchMojo videos. Barely any personality or soul

[@JohnMartin-ll9cw]

To me, the worst design is how Daisy was given a direct copy-paste of Peach's moveset outside of animations. The team should've given her the Chrom treatment instead.

[@jedisquidward]

I think looking at Little Mac and saying he's "bad" because of his design is like looking at a Rubik's Cube and asking "why is this thing so square"

[@KevSB07]

I don’t get the comparison

[@iantaakalla8180]

I think the supposed point is that Little Mac has never been shown fighting in the air in his games, so why depict Little Mac fighting in the air except the bare minimum? Except the issue is that at least with earlier fighters movesets have been made out of nothing, not even movement frames in their own games suggestive of something. Furthermore, even in newer design they do not always execute the purpose of the character nicely. So why should Little Mac being just a boxer prevent him from having any aerial game? It certainly should not be good because Smash practices faithfulness to the series in some manner, but the point is that he should defend himself in the air in general but as a last-ditch effort instead of being unable to at all.

[@antoniacorrales9148]

Surprised wario wasn't here. Nobody plays him due to how slow and weak he feels. He should have stronger power and easier launch power.

[@kingdedede5570]

he's the eighth fastest character in the air and has no trouble killing esp with waft combos what are you talking about

[@SacredStudios]

I feel like given his personality, Wario really shouldn’t be technical or require ‘combos’ to kill.

[@Monhamd1000]

Sonic is proof that the Smash team had no time of reworking the characters.

[@fnafgamer2469]

As a Sephiroth main, HIGHLY disagree. Literally the only problem I have with him is his weight. Also he doesn’t have the worst frame data in the game. He feels fine. Although him being balanced compared to other DLC fighters does feel really wrong. also i hate you for that stupid mario & luigi vs sephiroth reference that meme is dead and buried and it needs to stay dead

[@memesandhoi2924]

Interesting how PAC-MAN isn't here considering most of his specials are mostly references. You'd think they would represent his entire franchise. But he's only covering Namco arcade games, including the aforementioned Pac-Land. Why not stuff from Pac-Man World, Adventures of Pac-Man, Pac In Time, etc. Heck, even the most recent version of Pac-Man arcade has him do other stuff like lasers and freezing ghosts. So why not make him better in terms of that? Weird how not many fans mention this.

[@banjo9158]

His down air is an akward kick going down instead of his iconic butt bounce from Pac-Man World

[@Right_Bumper]

Given how much this guy whines about references in games like MVS, not surprised he never mentioned that Cuz if Smash overdoes references it’s completely fine according to everything

[@redshepherd32]

all these hero mains in the comments coping and defending hero are making me go 🙄 your character is one of the biggest gimmick characters in the game. The only reason he isnt considered higher in most tiers is because his sword normals are nowhere as oppressive as other swordies. Random crits aside. your character is making the opponent play your game. That is one of the many reasons why steve is top tier. Because he does this the best. Slow down the entire pace of the game. Hero is making opponents halt or hesitate everytime you use down b or any special. And because all his specials are really good(including most of his down b options) he can get away with only above average normals. He is poorly designed. You can say you enjoy playing him, but trying to justify him as "fair" is cap.

[@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821]

Counterpoint: Jump. Almost every spell in menu can't effectively deal with someone approaching from the air, and the few that can are rather precise timing (Even then, still approachable from the right angle). You don't need to hesitate to fly towards him if he has menu up, because he only has 2 options: Shield, or try to hit you with something anyways (This usually doesn't work). I won't sit here and try to claim Hero is honest. (This is smash, you could call any character dishonest and back it up lmao). But as unfair as he feels if you aren't familiar with him, he REALLY doesn't cheat as hard as it looks. (Except crits, he didn't need those, I don't deserve kills at 20% for no reason. Whack is pretty dumb too, but it's slow just block it I guess)

[@redshepherd32]

@@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821 Jump is an option, but so is shield and jump out for hero. He can run away when people try to close in. That's not enough of a counterpoint to say all the options and rng he has makes his defense options unviable against pressure. And that's even less of an argument with bounce and his other movement buffs. If you are saying, "he doesn't cheat as hard as people claim" That's still saying he cheats.

[@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821]

@redshepherd32 Most characters cheat in some way, that's kinda how smash works. Name a character who ISNT cheating in some way. I was just saying he isn't any more of a cheater than the rest, except for crits which are unnecessary.

[@redshepherd32]

@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821 the stance of "everyone does this so ______ doing the same shouldnt concern you" is a fallacy.

[@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821]

@redshepherd32 That it is, but one minor flaw there. The bandwagon fallacy doesn't quite apply here. This isn't a matter of me trying to say any of this is right, or that it should be this way to begin with; I'm saying it for what it is. Since you didn't refute my claim, I'm going to assume you agree to some degree. Every character cheats, in one way or another. It's perfectly fine for you to not enjoy the matchup, but to call him unfair is implying that he is somehow cheating harder than the rest.

[@Mordecoolio76]

I remember when Ultimate came out and I was hoping that Sonic would be one of the best characters to use... well, I guess that he is in an undesirable way. Even if he's not THE most uninspired character in the game, it really does feel like he got shafted in almost every way. Bland moveset, bland facial expressions, plain music track with no remixes, two stages with the second being discount Green Hill, and no new characters despite there being perfect echo potential with Shadow. Not trying to sound rude to Sakurai or anything, but it hurts seeing just how lacking he feels compared to all the love and detail pretty much every other third party got.

[@tuvyamaeir4684]

Funny thing is, your description of Hero is VERY much like an RPG series...namely MegaMan Battle Network.

[@jeremysimpson569]

"little mac is designed badly because he's weak in the air" ..... he's a fucking boxer, of course he's weak in the air that's literally his whole shtick, he's one of the better designed characters cause sakurai actually took the time to see how boxing works and impliment it into macs move set, sakurai made him weak in the air cause 1. boxers don't do air attacks, 2. little mac is one of the more grounded and realistic characters and punches are actually weaker in the air cause you can't plant your feet and distribute your weight properly, so very much disagee, your argument boils down to bad in air = badly designed, which in my opinion is kind of bull

[@ScrubReborn]

I think his point is more that they went overboard with his weakness. A lot of people say Mac being worse in the air makes sense but his design should be a bit less polarizing to make him more viable. I don't quite agree with that either though. Something that gets neglected is that Mac's ground game isn't even that great; a lot of his ground moves aren't as effective as they could be, many were even nerfed for no reason, and his throws are subpar. Maybe try tweaking that first before declaring the design irredeemable.

[@DJBurns-jq8mn]

This might just be me but i feel that Steve would of been way better in Smash if his mining took longer to fill up his gauge, like 3 or so seconds to get enough material to make a block and upgrade his weapons.

[@Valderami]

Shout-out to Sora for being the healthiest FP2 character

[@Oofy.]

*Steve

[@cardinmalone4974]

Isabelle, being a semi-clone of Villager and having unsafe poor approach options and currently bottom 5 of the entire roster of the tier list.

[@hightensionjapanesegoblin9821]

would like to remind you to look at the more recent tier lists. Isabelle is a bit higher than that. Still a solid D tier, but not like DeDeDe material.

[@smashbronikko]

I think bringing over more of Kirby's copy abilities his games would help him and have him feel more fun to play while also giving some visual flair to his moveset. Like instead of him being a kick boxer for all his normals, you could give him a different copy for just about each move.

[@minejack7773]

I am once again disappointed in the sheer lack of knowledge a KZbinr I like has about Mac's aerials