Sanders & Socialism: Debate Between Nobel Laureate Paul Krugman & Socialist Economist Richard Wolff

As Bernie Sanders’s runaway win in Nevada cements his position as the front-runner for the Democratic nomination, the Democratic Party establishment and much of the mainstream media are openly expressing concern about a self-described democratic socialist leading the presidential ticket. His opponents have also attacked his ambitious agenda. Last week during the primary debate in Las Vegas, Bernie Sanders addressed misconceptions about socialism. Invoking the words of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Sanders decried what he called “socialism for the very rich, rugged individualism for the poor.”
For more, we host a debate on Bernie Sanders and democratic socialism, featuring two well-known economists. Paul Krugman is a New York Times op-ed columnist and author of many books, including his latest, “Arguing with Zombies: Economics, Politics, and the Fight for a Better Future.” One of his recent columns is headlined “Bernie Sanders Isn’t a Socialist.” Richard Wolff is professor emeritus of economics at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, and visiting professor at The New School. He is the founder of Democracy at Work and hosts the weekly national television and radio program “Economic Update.” He’s the author of several books, including “Understanding Socialism.”
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[@kenleary7484]

I'm an "old people" who has been waiting a lifetime for a Sander's. It's about time.

[@infinitysteppingstone331]

We need more like you. G'day mate!

[@Frank-dv4zu]

me too, we put up with the al gores and the HRCs and we suffered through them, now the so called moderates need to let us take our turn and shut the fuck up.

[@shanebranly3582]

Thank you Ken for helping to lead the charge. I'm 43 and I'm honored to be your reinforcement.

[@Expatsunleashed]

❤️❤️

[@kingmichaelthelastwarrior]

Me Too!❤️

[@redfiend1670]

"NOT ME, US" Krugman: SO SELF INDULGENT

[@Libnletlib]

LOL exactly right! That's what I tell people anytime someone says Bernie only cares about himself or that he's an authoritarian

[@alexomoridon8099]

Noting self indulging here. He's just being realistic.

[@redfiend1670]

@CanadaCraig better to just be called whatever people are going to call you anyway, and focus on actually doing things instead of arguing semantics.

[@kalinsimovski5081]

An old fart roleplaying as Che is most definitely self indulgence

[@redfiend1670]

@@kalinsimovski5081 I'd like to see the parallels between a military backed violent revolutionary and a person backed by millions of everyday people for reform within the normal guidelines of civil political discourse.

[@sabatino1977]

"I expect Sanders to be the nominee..." Oh how that stings now in December of 2020.

[@mischevious]

I didn’t think Bernie could still make me cry but it seems now I have more reason than ever.

[@nikita-dh5je]

@@mischevious Paul Krugman is correct, Bernie Sanders was my choice also, the FDR of our time, but he killed himself by calling himself a democratic socialist. He simply is in favor of domestic programs that they have in every other developed nation in the world, that's all, and that's not really socialism. When he says single payer health care, they accuse him of being Stalin. He should have labeled himself a progressive independent , or social democrat, and maybe he would have won.

[@mischevious]

@@nikita-dh5je Nonsense. Screaming “Socialist Commie!” has been the go to method for attacking democrats for decades regardless of how far right those democrats lean. Even now they’re trumpeting that those radical leftists Biden and Harris will implement their socialist agenda! And what killed Bernie was corruption plain and simple. Democrats buried him with intent to do so; Because a Sanders administration would have had no jobs for self serving lobbyists or corrupt sycophant consultants like Neera Tanden. Because a Sanders administration would actually prioritize labor rights and climate change and environmental concerns and infrastructure and healthcare. But mainly because Wall St had informed Democrats back in February of 2019 when he announced his candidacy that if Sanders did become the democrat nominee, that they would vote for Trump. There is no way to vote against the interests of Goldman Sachs.

[@nikita-dh5je]

@@mischevious If Bernie Sanders had won the nomination the Wall Street bankers probably would have persuaded Bloomberg to run as a 3rd party and messed things up.

[@mischevious]

@@nikita-dh5je Things are messed up, seriously messed up. Biden has indicated in pretty much every way he can now that he intends to go back to Wall St, corporate and national security state pandering business as usual. Repeating the very same damaging behavior that brought us Trump, will also usher in another fascist authoritarian. Only this one will odds on be much smarter than Trump, and far wiser for his mistakes. Frankly the present situation is sickening. We have serious problems to address. We’re rapidly running out of time to do so and the President Elect has not only stated he’ll do nothing to help, with every cabinet pick and word that slips from his mouth he’s already making matters worse.

[@seanpatrick1243]

“Bloomberg isn’t evil, unless you listen to the things he has said.”

[@evanerys]

You could also find evidence of his evil by examining the things he's done.

[@creshiell]

"You can tell by the way that it is"

[@sandragray4598]

I also heard he has a '666' birthmark on his arse and is afraid to go into churches.

[@amossimon3438]

The low end workers have to refused to go to work in those jobs.Its happening.The workers getting smarter.Its the rich against the poor.

[@alberteinstein5270]

I support Bernie Sanders.

[@TXRhody]

I'm not listening to a college dropout.

[@thewiseman1132]

Move to north Korea!

[@TXRhody]

@Cristiano Silva Are the military, police force, fire departments, farm subsidies, oil subsidies, NASA, public schools, national parks, highways, and public libraries good?

[@sanwalyousaf]

Paul Krugman is so annoying. His whole argument is "it makes people like me uncomfortable." And he wants to accuse Bernie of being self-indulgent

[@zacharyrivera566]

He has a far right opinion, Paul Krugman.

[@JeffreyGillespie]

Krugman is another right wing nut dressed up a centrist.

[@tomitstube]

ikr? "it's just too self indulgent to call yourself a socialist." wtf does that even mean? EVERYONE knows unfettrered capitalism is destroying our democracy and the planet, i'm so sick of centrist-splaining.

[@tomitstube]

@@JeffreyGillespie exactly, when you consider how far right this country has moved in the last 40 years, reagan and nixon would be called "socialists" by this republiklan party, enough of these right wing "centrists".

[@CourtneyHaynes]

@@zacharyrivera566 why is he far right to you?

[@ethanhoefler181]

"I expect sanders will probably be the nominee." Why must you hurt me in this way

[@nikita-dh5je]

Paul Krugman is correct, Bernie Sanders was my choice also, the FDR of our time, but he killed himself by calling himself a democratic socialist. He simply is in favor of domestic programs that they have in every other developed nation in the world, that's all, and that's not really socialism. When he says single payer health care, they accuse him of being Stalin. He should have labeled himself a progressive independent , or social democrat, and maybe he would have won.

[@honeysucklecat]

Why do you support a man who has proven that he can’t get shit done? 30 years in Congress, and what does he have to show for it? 4 post offices have new names. He helped elect trump! And what a sore loser he was. Oh, wait, I forgot. Bernie didn’t lose. HE WAS CHEATED! IT WAS A CONSPIRACY! THE DNC AND THE MEDIA! THE MODERATES! THE CENTRISTS! THE ENEMY! BLAME THEM ALL! BERNIE WAS CHEATED! Medicare for All and Make Mexico pay for it!!!! Build a Wall and Make Wall Street Pay for it!! Trumpler and Sanders - 2 demagogues who’ll promise you whatever you want to hear. 2 men who can’t admit when they LOSE. 2 men who are quick to shift blame. 2 men who live in fear of apologizing. 2 sides of the same shit sandwich. Bernie sucks. Get over it. Biden is a good man, more experienced than anyone else to take the office. Give him some support. Oh, wait, I forgot. Kamala. No way you’re going to support a woman. Berniebros simply can’t handle women.

[@ethanhoefler181]

@@honeysucklecat yall are assuming a lot of things there bud. I never said I thought he was cheated, I implied that I was sad that he lost

[@nikita-dh5je]

@@honeysucklecat Biden's record is supporting Iraq war, Patriot Act, Bush's tax cuts for wealthy, 1984 crime bill, endless compromise with Mitch McConnell, backruptcy bill, opposing medicare for all, raking in millions from credit card companies in Delaware and protecting them for years, friend of corporate lobbyist, endless wars in mideast, passes al lot of bills with Republicans. Decent guy yes, but 4 more years of Obama may lead to another Trump , is that what you want? And no, Sanders did not help elect Trump, he did 39 rallies, for H. Clinton, she defeated herself with inept campaign. The primaries had several states where independents could not vote, if Sanders had gone against Trump, Sanders would have beaten Trump easily, he won all those midwest states where H. Clinton lost to Trump, Trump was afraid to debate Sanders.

[@nikita-dh5je]

Biden will be president in a month, good luck to him, but if he is simply Clinton or Obama 2.0 then we are doomed for another Trump in 2024.

[@jessicobra7]

It's insane to think that this was recorded in 2020. So much of politics has changed over the course of this year.

[@mischevious]

And so much hasn’t. We need him now more than ever.

[@ThaTruFily]

After watching on the day I can assure you i'm so glad so many awoke politically in a positive way after, at least. Or we know now who is really there and who is a TFG (too far gone)

[@darrenfleming7901]

you had about half a year of actually promising discussions where medicare for all and other issues gained a lot of traction and then you went straight back to neoliberal politicians fear-mongering about socialism and communism.

[@mischevious]

@@darrenfleming7901 No actually the fight for universal healthcare continues, and stronger than ever now in this pandemic. Too bad you’re so uninformed and uninvolved.

[@leam1978]

@@darrenfleming7901 i was about to say, not much changed at all. instead of healthcare and climate change, it's no dem progress on the pandemic and stimulus checks

[@jacobmartinez7788]

This guy sounds scared. This is a sign of weakness! Bernie Sanders 2020 !

[@Greenblood60]

Fear is a form of intelligence.

[@sa-iw4dr]

@@Greenblood60 Not really!

[@billytheweasel]

Yeah I've flicked the "don't give a switch". Sick and tired of being scared and careful.

[@LRF49]

But you're forgetting one thing. Bernie is going up against another none establishment.

[@billytheweasel]

@@LRF49 Mafia Don? Different galaxy. lol

[@docmalthus]

Note to Krugman: as a 66 year old I can attest that not all of Bernie's supporters are young people.

[@fishhookism]

As a 55 year old I can attest to the same thing.

[@rumorhasit9506]

Me too!

[@DJ-zp8hw]

It's true! I've volunteered dozens of times and it's become obvious that we're truly a diverse group.

[@infinitemonkey917]

Gen x for Bernie here.

[@irenenabizadeh6802]

I'm 68 and Bernie has my vote!

[@spaghettibird5135]

God I remember this time. When we all thought Bernie was going to win :(

[@Liliquan]

Anyone familiar with the history of the Democratic Party would know that they would never let him win. And that’s exactly what they did.

[@Sinleqeunnini]

@@Liliquan Adolph Reed and other realists 'knew' he wasn't going to win the nomination but pleasantly surprised he got as far as he did. Uncle Bernie showed us the way. Now we have to follow.

[@qTHEGAMERp]

@@Sinleqeunnini Follow what? Universal centrism? - Just because USA is two notched the left of fascism, doesn't make centrist programs the pathway to social justice, as one who actually lives in the 'idyllic' social democracies, it's not as fantastic as you think. As long as Capitalism fundamentally exist in a nation, the capitalist class will continue to roll back every singe social program, or security net, as they currently are doing, and have been doing. All the social democratic parties in, for example Scandinavia, have been neoliberal parties since the 2000s.

[@Sinleqeunnini]

@@qTHEGAMERp Follow what? Universal centrism? M: My meaning should have been clear right away: Follow Bernie, what he stood for, etc. The rest of your comments require no further response. - Just because USA is two notched the left of fascism, doesn't make centrist programs the pathway to social justice, as one who actually lives in the 'idyllic' social democracies, it's not as fantastic as you think. As long as Capitalism fundamentally exist in a nation, the capitalist class will continue to roll back every singe social program, or security net, as they currently are doing, and have been doing. All the social democratic parties in, for example Scandinavia, have been neoliberal parties since the 2000s.

[@bergensteinmacwhorfmanteis2417]

It’s like they said in the video: “You aren’t going to be nominated without a good number of old people voting for you.” Most older people (ironically) disapprove Bernie simply because he’s a socialist. When old Americans think of socialism, they think Cuba and the USSR and China and do not think of Germany and Scandinavia; places where socialism has succeeded. They confuse socialism with totalitarianism to the detriment of everyone involved.

[@Spike-hl2mw]

Not even a year later, this discussion already feels like ancient history.

[@pcuimac]

I understand Krugman, but they would call Sanders "socialist" and "communist" anyway. I think Krugmann should watch Krystall Ball from The Hill more.

[@FuzzytheOTTER]

"The Rising" ... has arisen !!!

[@VTRDC27]

Exactly. It doesn't matter who is put up. They called Obama a socialist, communist, and marxist. I mean come on.

[@haleybrown2836]

Actually Krugman was insulting. Basically he stated that people are too stupid to make the distinction between socialism and communism. Granted there are still some but most these days can make the distinction.

[@henrygustav7948]

Krugman is a disingenuous person.

[@kylestyyle987]

To be fair to Krugman he’s right that Sanders’ platform isn’t full blown socialism/democratic socialism, it’s social democracy. Branding himself as soc dem instead probably would’ve been more accurate and strategic

[@mikenetherlin6912]

Dear God please help Bernie Sanders be our next president. We are being squeezed out by the corporations and government. We have worked hard we deserve to live with dignity. 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@motnabbi1]

Amen

[@DramaQueenMalena]

Pray for strength to do whatever you can. It doesn't have to be much. I'm from Europe. You just could use chalk or toothpaste painting (a cup of water with a spoon of toothpaste) and write "We deserve dignity. Vote for Bernie." on walls and the street. Here it's legal if the color is not permanent. You can ask shop owners if you can write on their shop windows.

[@anaxa4883]

If you look at history you will see that the working-class will never live with dignity until it is armed, organized, and unified in its goal to defeat the capitalists and their state. They will never concede us any real power by holding hands, singing songs, or praying - this peaceful way of thinking is imposed on the working-class so it never poses a real threat to the capitalists.

[@acid2all87]

deities help those who help themselves...

[@kishab704]

Amen!!

[@bravetherainbow]

Paul: The people sending me hatemail don't think I'm centrist Richard: Okay

[@merdacalcio]

yeah because they are lunatics fostered by fox news

[@bravetherainbow]

@@merdacalcio probably. hatemail sucks coming from anyone though, I'm sure.

[@dreamingrightnow1174]

Yeah, he was very defensive about that.. I had to laugh when Richard mentioned the centrists who are having to face that they aren't on the left and you could feel Paul's discomfort.

[@jonathanm9993]

@@dreamingrightnow1174 Krugman wrote pages upon pages about the fallacy of bothsideism that so called centrists engage in and is a proponent of a single payer healthcare system, a green new deal and deficit spending to invest into infrastructure. There are points in which I might argue that he has centrist tendencies but those are abstract concepts of theory concerning the efficacy of modelling in economics and one might argue that the political spectrum in contemporary economics is not comparable to the one of manstream politics. Then again even on that level one must give the man credit for his intellectual journey which has resulted in his straying from the new keynesian school of though which he was socialized in, trained under and to which he made major contributions. I think if the American left can't accept or embrace someone like Krugman and instead opts for people like Richard Wolff they will just hinder themselves in terms of credibility and political potency.

[@dreamingrightnow1174]

@@jonathanm9993 When you say "..give the man credit for his intellectual journey which has resulted in his straying from the new Keynesian school of thought which he was socialized in.." you could just as well be speaking of Wolff. You seem to be defending Krugman's objection to being labeled a centrist but then disparaging the left ("..if the American left can't accept or embrace someone like Krugman and instead opts for people like Richard Wolff.."). I think you and Krugman need to pick a lane.

[@travisbickle3835]

American politics in a nutshell: 1. Person: "We should give our people a better life, we should give home to homeless people, we should raise the benefits for our workers, we should tax the rich for the benefit of poor" 2. Guy: "That's communism" *Everyone in America* : Hell yeah, let's elect the second guy

[@os2958]

Sad tho

[@shinlanten]

*_"Give Republicans unnecessary ammunition"_* Let's not kid our selves, they would have called him socialist even if he never directly called himself a socialist.

[@yao052]

the Greatjon that still doesn't mean he is wrong about that.

[@jatkinson85]

@@yao052 It means we shouldn't care what the Republicans say, Obama campaigned as a progressive and the Republicans labled him as a "socialist" and "communist" and they lost, TWICE - Bill Clinton also pretended to be on the left, the Republicans called him a socialist and they lost, TWICE! Republicans win when the Democratic candidate runs away from the left.

[@limitlessapocalypse2702]

the Greatjon No one even said Socialist till Sanders spammed the word.

[@jatkinson85]

@@limitlessapocalypse2702 NOPE, Socialist has been used as the Republican bogeyman word since the 1930s, do try to keep up.

[@EveryMan333]

@@jatkinson85 yep. they've already called Warren socialist. whoever is the nominee will carry this label. might as well be someone who would be proud of it.

[@njosborne6152]

You’re full if it bud, I’m, like my neighbors and friends are in our 70’s. Many have served this country. To a person we all support a universal healthcare‼️

[@BartScantlin]

That's good to hear. We thank you for your support!

[@jbweld6193]

I'm so glad you think that way. You'll tank this election for me and give us 4 more years of MAGA! Thank you!!

[@jodylynn840]

@@jbweld6193 Your candidate already did that!

[@jodylynn840]

Krugman is a joke!

[@jodylynn840]

Hence democratic socialism

[@cargocultpod]

"by than standard Denmark is centrist." "right." lmaoooo based Wolff

[@paramountofpuns6913]

yeah he wasnt wrong

[@synchronium24]

No, Wolff is a dishonest snake. Krugman supports many of Bernie's policies.

[@jaydonm4634]

@@synchronium24 Why’s Wolff a snake?

[@punknowledge2200]

Yes, delusion is based

[@jonathanm9993]

how is him admitting to being wrong based? Krugman supports a "nordic model", Bernie supports a "nordic model" Wolff then calls Krugman a centrist and Bernie a socialist although their views are mostly overlapping. That is delusional. He seems to not be able to think in actual positions but only in the abstract. Also how can an expert on socialism have what seems to be no idea about SocDems - The largest socialist movement of the 19th and 20th century - as well as their institutionalization. He seems to be thinking in an incredibly overtly simplictic political framework of "centrist", "leftist" and "right-winger" and loads them with a priori-like connotation. That is absurd. How do people celebrate that man? He's like a 'socialist' Jordan Peterson whose credence does not stem from his arguments but from his position of authority and identification.

[@j.w.2391]

I think its so dishonest for the US to even attempt to make a false analogy comparison to Denmark or any European country about Socialism! Denmark did not have the same History of Chattel slavery and Jim Crow exclusion that we have had. There is no comparison between the essentially White homogenous society of Denmark or Sweden with the racial and ethnic heterogeneity of North America that has rendered Socialism a practically impossible economic policy to achieve. Even FDR's New Deal that people love to trot out as an example of "benign" socialism was fraught with Racism in its execution, ensuring that the majority of Afro Americans never benefited from the New Deal's policies and programs.

[@confuzler6985]

"We privatize gains and socialize losses" - Noam Chomsky

[@thenubianreview]

confuzler that statement speaks volumes

[@coreyham3753]

Certainly true in many cases .. but none of these politicians are suggesting any realistic approaches or solutions to deal with that problem. They are simply making essentially political rhetoric, more simplistic promises to try and buy your vote, and promises that largely they will not keep anyway. The real problems and issues are very structural in nature and could be solved if they were willing to address them in a logical way. But they are not, even if they recognized them, which is questionable. The income tax system is a perfect example. It is the mot dysfunctional and ineffective system that anyone could ever possibly put together. It needs to be completely remade along sound and logical and effective principles and rules. None of these idiots are even remotely close to understanding that, let along considering it. They are simplistically talking about raising taxes a few per cent here, and taxing this new thing there. Absolute total smoke and mirrors. The truth of the matter is that the whole income tax system needs to be revised along basic principles, sound logic, and the the absence of politicians to be able to use the tax system as a reward and preference method to give tax breaks to their own vested interests and campaign donors. It really would not be all that hard to get that one ... but politicians will never do such, since the tax system is something akin to their own personal election and slush fund. Very sad for all americans, but that is reality.

[@coreyham3753]

@@Xolotl000 Yes, that is true to some degree. But first of all, Bernie has been a career politician for 30+ years and accomplished nothing to change that. Seems to me that 30+ years of not accomplishing your job is not much of a recommendation to give you yet more time to say you will accomplish it this time. Most employees who failed at their ob for that length of time certainly would not be given a promotion and told now get it done. Secondly, Bernie does not even really understand what the real problems are in that statement or how to actually address them. The problems are deeply structural in multiple areas and require very very major overhauls not just political rhetoric and simplistic alleged solutions. For example, raise taxes by 4% and tax a few new things is so simplistic as to be almost laughable. The real problem is that the US income tax system is totally dysfunctional and flawed in so many ways, that the only solution is a complete overhaul based on basic principles and a sound and logical approach that will enable the income tax system to function fairly, efficiently, and to accomplish it's basic purpose. It really would not be all that difficult to do that from a pragmatic and sound principle based approach. But Bernie's simplistic political rhetoric on that is not even in the universe of what really needs to be done.

[@coreyham3753]

@@Xolotl000 Not going to argue with you. The facts and objective comparison are pretty clear and overwhelming. Think whatever to like.

[@BjayawesomeBlackDude]

The Demi Establishments not only are able to buy the election they also now buying up the audience in the debates. Who's the prime suspect?,.. better yet who's the Bernie Sanders supporters that have $700.00 dollars to waste on an South Carolina basic debate tickets?!? 🤔

[@mjdailamy4550]

Richaaaaaaaaaaard💪💪💪💪💪💓💓💓 is the maaaaaan Krugman,:" Bloomberg is not evil."??? Really?

[@gonefishing3849]

Mehrdad Dalamie Bloomberg is evil!

[@Marxist2]

Yeah a billionaire who bought the DNC & who owns a large part of the corporate media including Krugman.

[@phillysipha]

It saddens me that we missed this opportunity and that Bernie just gave up so easily.

[@rishnayak4692]

He didn't just give up so easily. Most older democrats voted for Biden, and he won fair. I know it's harsh, I'm also sad. But remember, the Political Revolution is eternal. We are the Revolution, and we should continue to fight for Progressive Policies in this country.

[@phillysipha]

@@rishnayak4692 I'll continue up to push for sure but not through the democratic party.

[@DL-gx5cr]

How was this 11 months ago? WOW! What a long year it's been.

[@cami-loo108]

I'm a Boomer and will be voting for Bernie. Krugman is out of touch

[@saadhasan2300]

Not out of touch, he knows where the paycheck comes from, he didn't get the Nobel for no reason

[@warhurst1968]

@@saadhasan2300 He doesn't have a Nobel prize, he's a narrative spinner, and I can tell as a Mathematics lecturer that teaches service courses to students of Economics, that economists don't know where the paycheck comes from at all, what they teach is a religion, that historically and experimentally has never worked.

[@kathyannpardi9888]

Camille Harris, DITTO!

[@Nicole-ww4lg]

that's what happens when you become part of the establishment like krugman. outsiders don't win nobel prizes and write for the new york times

[@radiotec76]

Same here boomer Class of '61 and I'll be voting for Bernie here in Texas and the national election.

[@griiseknoen]

5:42 Bloomberg: _-"We're not gonna throw out capitalism. We tried that."_ No, Mike. We most definitely did not.

[@arthur.prospero]

He meant humanity

[@freecake1]

the groans when he said communism lol

[@eugenekim4648]

Well to be fair, everywhere the means of production has been taken over by the government has failed. The socialist experimentation is over and real socialists are stupid. Bernie is not a Socialist. Denmark, Finland, Sweden etc are not socialist countries. They have markets with regulations keeping crony capitalism in check.

[@Hirnlego999]

@@eugenekim4648 As Sanders say he wants more worker influence at the workplace, that is not the same as government shutting down businesses and running them. This is also seen in the documentary "The take" by Naomi Klein, a business goes belly up and the owners leave the business completely and the workers simply continue to do work. And as they do they make it democratic, everyone gets a voice and thus a say in which way the new co-operation business will go. This is not at all USSR.

[@arhael1]

@@eugenekim4648 I'm really tired of this socialist economy has failed. So capitalism never failed, right? It was always uneven, hypocritical discussion. Socialist are stupid says enough about your intelligence, and ignorance. And at least you're smart enough to get that Bernie isn't a socialist. But it's showing how so called West is brainwashed, enough money was put into the propaganda, to the point aren't really thinking freely, but they think they're.

[@ryanmitchell5614]

I feel Bernie Sanders uses the term democratic socialism not for accuracy so much as to normalize talking about socialism

[@BUSeixas11]

Bingo

[@PhilAndersonOutside]

Wolff later commented on this saying Krugman was uncomfortable the entire debate, including before the cameras were on and they were just speaking to one another. He later concluded it was because Krugman knew too little about the history of socialism. He had praise for Paul’s intellect, but also noted he, like so many other capitalist establishment economists over the last 3-4 decades grew up completely dismissing all socialism in the shadow of the Cold War.

[@52wisewoman]

I am nearly 70 years old and I support Bernie Sanders! Time to put the health and future of average Americans FIRST...not the billionaires and corporations.

[@kathyannpardi9888]

Denise Holmes, This 72 year old for BERNIE SANDERS.

[@Lexekon]

@Stinky Nuts aka Lamarcus Are you trolling? The government would not be in control, it would set a floor above which luxury items could be offered freely. Just no more nonsense about people going broke over medical needs. That is a thing right now, embarrassingly enough for our country.

[@Lexekon]

@Stinky Nuts aka Lamarcus But what you are describing has no legitimate connection to what is being put forth. State communism is not being suggested, which is what government control would entail.

[@tjay1116]

The whole conversation is about the title "socialism" and why Bernie shouldn't even use the title. "Social Democracy" is more of what he's pulling for and that's a capitalistic economy with strong social safety nets such as universal healthcare. Our average American brother and sisters shouldn't have to go bankrupt because someone in their family gets sick when we're the richest country in the world. I applaud our younger and older voters seeing past the "socialist" title for something that's vastly more important.

[@chummaker1]

Denise I am 76 years old, and I am against Commrad Sanders. Has your old age caused you to forget what socialism/communism has done around the world????? It has killed millions.....no country voluntarily taken communism. And the ones that have had communism imposed on them have had their countries ruined!!!!!! What country would you like to move to because this country WILL NOT be communist. I, my 3 brothers, my father and 2 uncles have fought against it. Where were you in the 50s, 60s, 70s. 80s, 90s. 'til now????

[@easytofool]

"Why use that word?" Because he believes it and hes an honest person. End of story.

[@placebojesus5652]

But politics is supposed to be about lying!

[@alexomoridon8099]

Lol! Good luck trying to win the election on 'honesty'. And no, I'm not being facetious, just brutally realistic. Americans don't care about honestly. Sad but true.

[@VioletEnds]

@@alexomoridon8099 You're hanging out with the wrong Americans then

[@gjingodjango]

And after decades of right wing propaganda attacking that word we should strive to take it back and own it. I too am proud to be a socialist.

[@kalinsimovski5081]

If you knew anything about politics you know that's not true.

[@LordKorgyab]

Mr Krugman seems afraid. Mr Wolff seems confident. Mr Krugman plugged his own book twice. Mr Wolff didn't talk about his book. Who seems most honest?

[@bensnow2688]

This is a debate which illustrates the dichotomy of one who ties himself to the political establishment and thus limits what they’re allowed to say and one who doesn’t care what the elites think and thus can fight for what is actually right.

[@illizcit1]

The way the establishment is reacting to Bernie can be summed up as follows: *Muh purse!*

[@gilberttessier1871]

Me pearls!

[@contactkeithstack]

No. It's muh 4 more years of Trump.

[@TheDNAGroup]

I reckon that's the reaction of most human beings when they encounter someone trying to take something of theirs without permission.

[@Alkalite]

@@TheDNAGroup You mean like when billionaires take absurd percentages of technical innovation, progress, and productivity achieved through collective human effort?

[@jetcitysinatra7300]

@@TheDNAGroup Apparently you know nothing of what Bernie is trying to do. If say getting in your car and moving wherever you liked when you liked was a *RIGHT* and not a privilege as the states want us to think it is and Bernie wanted to give that *RIGHT* back to you would you not want him too? Bernie wants to make sure *OUR RIGHTS* Stay OURS.

[@zacharyrivera566]

I'm 63 year's old and I'm voting for Bernie.

[@docmalthus]

I'm 66 and I'm with you!

[@franklotion7716]

40 year old black man Bernie all the way

[@aland.549]

Bravo Zach convince others about Bernie.

[@tewtravelers9586]

Thank you both. I'm 40 and a retired Army officer and combat veteran. I was a long-time conservative and my father is a leader in the John Birch Society. About eight years ago I began to see what capitalism has done to people and my views changed. I'm now a huge Bernie Sanders supporter and my family can't stand it. Little do they know, I want Bernie to win for their sake. I have insurance from Tricare and the VA...they don't go to the doctor because they can't afford it. Fox News has brainwashed half of America.

[@tpowell3776]

Gen Xer here and Im over joyed for the opportunity to finally have an old school FDR Democrat in the White House BERNIE❤️

[@EGH181]

That period of time was very hopeful. I miss it.

[@RYN988]

This is a quality and mature conversation. God I miss this stuff! It really does sound like it's from the 90's or something given the current state of political discourse.

[@tomgnyc]

People are calling Sanders "not a real Democrat". There couldn't be a more ringing endorsement.

[@brett7077]

You’re going down in flames

[@utterlyviolet]

tomgnyc The fact that I know a Republican loving Sanders man naming that practice "BS semenatics" cause HE can see how Bernie's voted with the Democrats 95% of the time, that says something.

[@pathocrat]

Or Bernie hasn't been a Democrat since the 70s when the party turned its back on the working-class. People from the era when the party was actually popular and successful would recognize Bernie as a Democrat.

[@billytheweasel]

I stayed the same for 4 decades and am somehow a socialist now.

[@LRF49]

Then why run as a Democrat 🤔

[@ultramagnus8240]

I careless about what Sanders calls himself and more about his policies and ideas.

[@chucklynch6523]

His messages regarding his policies are LOUD and clear, "From each according to their ability; to each according to their needs!". Mr. Magnus, under a President Sanders Administration will I get to define YOUR needs???? Better yet, will I get to define Bernie's needs? I mean, does the Bern really NEED 3 multi-million dollar mansions????

[@bennetjanssen4037]

Yes. Especially that he will increase government spending to 53% of GDP.

[@abdelhakimberi1964]

well not your average american white voter who screams MAGA when they are so fucked by republican policies. Everytime i look at trump and his followers i just laugh so hard ...

[@coreyham3753]

You might not care,, but many millions do attach significance to labels and names. So the real question is whether Bernie is electable or not?

[@alexpodolsky8980]

exactly!

[@billyBoySweeney]

Great to see Rick out there helping to frame the discussion in his inimitable way!

[@defenestratorofsouls4266]

God, watching this in 2021 is depressing. We really thought Bernie had it after Nevada, and look where we’ve fallen to now.

[@MIDixons]

2022 calling in. Yep, still depressing. Probably even more so because we can see how corporatist the Democratic Party has become. It's right out there for everyone to see.

[@lorifitzgerald2891]

I'm an old person and I love socialism. Capitalism isn't democracy, never has been.

[@karlblume9419]

Thank you! The disingenuous conflation of governmental systems with economic ones has always set my teeth on edge.

[@buckyoung4578]

First of all Lori, if you live in America you DON'T live in a democracy. You live in a Constitutional Republic. Fine out what that is and get back to me.

[@grunklesmuff]

Socialism isn't good. A social market is better.

[@hudson2441]

"160 million Americans have insurance now" - Kruegman ...... Yeah but the other 160 million Americans DON'T. Schools don't generally consider 50% a passing grade.

[@zengjanezhu]

The ones who have the insurance still have to file for bankruptcies if they are hit with a big disease like cancers.

[@billyboy6028]

@Sudhir Kakar You're disgusting, beat it!!

[@ignanttv3006]

Sudhir Kakar ... 100% of India doesn't try at hygiene or not being corrupt.

[@TheSimonScowl]

BTW. did anyone else notice the headline ("Nobel Laureate Paul Krugman & Socialist Economist Richard Wolff")? I think it's easy to see which side Democracy Now is on!

[@easytofool]

@Sudhir Kakar i dunno where the fuck you're from but if it's not here you probably have universal healthcare so stfu. and if you want people to "live healthy," then healthcare being prohibitively expensive is not the way to do it

[@janovewaldner1]

Wow, 26 minutes of nonstop quality talking. I'm impressed.

[@karljacobson7811]

That is why this show is gold

[@utbunny]

Man, this feels like it was from a lifetime ago.

[@dawna1214]

I have employer provided healthcare and I'd give it up right now for Medicare for ALL. My employer can take my healthcare away anytime they want!

[@lostintime519]

yeah! Anyone who says that this shit is a fine work by capitalists - should be beaten to death. It is condescending, as well as all those "how do we help the third world??" questions are racist.

[@lostintime519]

capitalists are also given the power to decide who gets to live or not. wtf is that?

[@aralsea1]

America can't be paying healthcare when it has an illegal immigration problem that's out of control. Who qualifies for it?

[@lostintime519]

@@aralsea1 we should make people like you illegal

[@DeniseLayne]

I have health insurance for the first time in 12 years, when I got a job working for... my insurance company last year. I could not afford it before then no matter how badly I wanted or needed it. Now I pay half my premiums cost, which is still a significant burden on my $16 hour income. I too would be glad for the Medicare for all, even if it means I may have to find another job.

[@BartScantlin]

Richard Wolff's time has come. He's the man! Check out some of his debates against capitalists. He's fierce.

[@jackhuffman9313]

Bart Scantlin Richard wolfs time has come and gone..., he’s a fool and he’s dead wrong

[@Aaron-ir4he]

Bart Scantlin I wouldn’t trust Wolff - or Krugman for that matter - to drive me home they are wrong that often

[@biggerson51]

@@Aaron-ir4he who is right?

[@JohnPaul-le4pf]

Say NO to "Slow Joe Biden." BERNIE 2020.

[@eleanormedina6703]

Yeah vote heart attack burnout. Too old too lead . The youth vote is his?wtf.

[@dice1296]

your nickname is right out of the trump playbook. don't play that game

[@dice1296]

@@eleanormedina6703 you realize that he's the same age as biden, right? and that he does indeed get way more of the youth vote than biden?

[@lunarmodule6419]

Outch now - stuck with him 😛

[@lxxnardo1296]

Rip

[@saultorres8125]

GUESS WHAT MR. KRUGEMAN THEY ALSO CALLED JOE BIDEN A SOCIALIST! JUST GROW A SPINE AND STAND UP FOR AN ISSUE! I MISS BERNIE😭

[@davidkinney650]

He did, multiple times in this video. In this conversation he is talking about the misuse of political terms. Let's be like Denmark, which is not socialist.

[@Waitjayithought]

Bernie is honest. That’s why he labels himself a democratic socialist instead of trying to hide from the word. His honesty is a strength and shouldn’t be the subject of criticism

[@Nativecary]

He needs to be more honest about his 30 year congress grift. Only 9 laws authored and passed and ZERO coalitions. Where's he been all this time? He's a talker and that it, never does anything except yell.

[@patrickd5274]

Should be democratic communist then.

[@peterbelanger4094]

Yeah, North Korea calls themselves "democratic" also. It's just a word, means nothing.

[@peterbelanger4094]

His supporters are all a bunch of little bitches!!!!

[@maguswest]

I welcome Bernie delusional honesty. This means in November it will be easier for us to smash this naked socialist.

[@GEOMETRICINK]

Sanders is going to drag Chris Matthews to Central Park and force him to pay a teeny tiny percentage more in taxes. OHHHH NOOOO! THE HORROR!

[@nomad7653]

love it

[@williamtexeira6671]

Wish i could be there!!! Chris looks and sounds like a Nazi!!!

[@jeffchoi]

Followed by a physical health check-up and an affordable prescription for anxiety pills.

[@billytheweasel]

:sniff: Poor poor corporate media whores not getting their way for once.

[@alexpodolsky8980]

​@@billytheweasel they just might get it what they wish for. If we switch Steve Bannon crowd to Richard and Bernie. Bannon: Bloomberg has a personal vendetta against Trump Fox News - i left some comments there.

[@tcorourke2007]

They should re-title this "Three Socialists discuss the pros and cons about naming their ideology honestly". RIP Bernie Sanders Campaign.

[@tcorourke2007]

@cDb You're right. I have therefore upvoted myself!

[@lukec1471]

I agree with Wolff here, bernie’s normalization of socialism in general (even if he’s more of a socdem) is VERY important and will change American politics for the foreseeable future in a positive way

[@DJ-zp8hw]

"The current Medicare isn't as RADICAL as what Sanders is proposing" Dude, be real. Just say old Medicare isn't as GOOD as what we're proposing.

word

[@mannyortiz3656]

Hes a sniveling weasel, thats why

[@fuzzywzhe]

Just remember that whatever social program the current group of criminal scum implement, for every $1.00 they take in, they only give $0.01 back, spend $0.85 on POINTLESS USELESS WARS (that's why they are trying to restart the cold war, Russia Russia Russia!!!) and the 14 cents that is left over - they put that in their pocket. Our government is too criminal to be trusted with ANY social programs. Reduce the Federal government's budget by 80%, increase the tax revenues for STATES, and let the state governments implement the programs - because our federal government is nothing but a criminal syndicate. You think giving the mafia more money to implement a social program is a good idea - they're just going to steal it.

[@julianjulez46]

@@mannyortiz3656 HATING troll you're SAD!

[@kremove]

@@mannyortiz3656 No, he's on our side, when most of the country is not. Please, can we be smart and see beyond our own nose? United we stand...

[@ti-lo5hy]

Paul Krugman: " I can't see what the point is..." Meanwhile 40% of Americans can't afford a $400 dollar emergency

[@proactivex]

exactly. Stock market, all time high. People have no money. What else do you need to know?! The corporations have mastered the game of keeping all the money and not paying people enough to keep going. People who are comfortable financially right now should find it very curious that Bernie is running the table when the economy is at "an all time high". You don't have to be a rocket scientist or nobel economist to know shit is fucked up.

[@user-ks1hp2pb5g]

​@Sudhir Kakar How did you figure that?

[@SuperSupermanX1999]

@Sudhir Kakar "behaviours and choices" we can't all choose to be born with a daddy who gives us a million dollars, mate

[@innerlockbreaker3916]

@Sudhir Kakar exactly...and youd think they cudda found an economist that knew the difference between chicken schiff and chicken salad

[@proactivex]

@Sudhir Kakar you are not a system thinker. if you're running a business, or an organization. and 40% of your org is on the verge of failure, especially 40% of 330 million, the system has a problem. I'll give you an example, if you ran a business, and your entire sales staff was making no money, you can't just tell them they all suck and call it good. If you have a software company and 40% of the time there is catastrophic underperformance in product delivery.? You tweak the system. 1%,2% blame it on people. 40%, its a system problem.

[@deckuofm]

In the west, many people regularly rummage through spattered bins and trash cans, with restaurants on every corner in the background. In the USSR, restaurants were clearly more modest, but it was difficult to imagine that a Soviet person would want to climb into the trash can, despite the more modest average salary of the population.

[@RJH755]

Man watching this now is so depressing, Bernie was sooo close to becoming the nominee after Nevada...

[@keevancrawford6708]

"Bloomberg is not evil" is a regrettable statement.

[@bernlin2000]

Lol...yeah, shouldn't have to utter that statement sincerely when discussing a public official...he certainly doesn't represent working class interests, that's for damn sure!

[@lostintime519]

he probably remembered how Bloomberg helped him somehow.

[@guyguy7634]

He’s not evil he’s a capitalist

[@captainhaire]

@@guyguy7634 Obviously not. No capitalist supports Big Business or collusion with government forces, and Bloomberg loves to do. Capitalism is against those agendas.

[@philmstud2k]

Love the phrasing of this comment, haha.

[@infinitysteppingstone331]

Chris Matthews: "Bernie would have me executed in Central Park." This is journalism?

[@Mikkamel]

Why in Central Park though? I'm not American, so I can't really comment, but don't you have plazas? The white house has a lawn, right? I cannot for the life of me understand the reasoning behind Central Park.

[@ChannelMath]

@@Mikkamel Trump thinks 5th Avenue, NYC is the place. We do have plazas, though we call them "squares", even when they are not square.

[@homayounshirazi9550]

No, it's fear mongering! And Krugman as an economic editor of NYT is doing what his masters tell him to say. He is just being dishonest for not identifying himself as such.

[@JohnSmith-kz8yo]

And if Bernie was elected the elite would remove him from office...

[@Mikkamel]

@@ChannelMath But isn't it Bernie who is supposed to have Chris executed in Central Park? Or is it Trump too? Either way, I don't get why anyone would pick Central Park.

[@JorgePetraglia2009]

Dear professor Wolff : please, please, try your best to don't be nominated to the Nobel prize. The guy you are sharing this interview is one of them and you should know (we do anyway) that you are way more informed and better than these people. These creatures will do anything to defend the very system that has been destroying humanity right from the beginning of time. My regards to you amigo, you really know what you are talking about.Greetings from Toronto.

[@sujalthapa7887]

So umm...ya'll might not know this but in an interview with Yanis Varoufakis it was stated that Krugman and Prof Woolf were a part of the same class in undergrad and he was supposedly a relatively progressive guy who abandoned his progressive ideals for the sake of a better carreer and personal future. So when Woolf was talking about how some centrists may now have to face that the decision that centrism may not have been the future and that abandoning their ideals might not have been worth it, he could be talking about Krugman in a roundabout way.

[@antenna_prolly]

Well, Chris Matthews is partly right: his income bracket loses. Literally everyone else wins.

[@lightbringer2938]

Loses? Matthews and other rich people only have to wait a little longer to buy that 4th house or longer yacht. Losing for the rest of us is the loss of our house, and debt that we can't pay for decades. Those rich crybabies will only be inconvenienced. But i agree with you.

[@rsync9490]

About time and not by much anyways. They are whining over money they don't need nor will miss when everything is said and done.

[@captainhaire]

@@rsync9490 Who are you to say what they need? Maybe the people with that money know how to disperse it best? Does anyone know what Carnegie did with his money? What Gates and Buffet will do with theirs? Am I alone in acknowledging that money is not finite? I doubt either of the men in this debate would disagree with this statement.

[@ningxiawolfberry]

Socialist/communist

[@Dan16673]

If you are middle class and not completely riddled with illness you will be significantly poorer

[@solid1378]

You can definitely see Krugman is very nervous with the Mighty Legend, Professor Wolff...😏

[@loganshotrod4x464]

Richard Wolff is an intellectual powerhouse! 🤘😎👍

[@SnekChrmr]

Paul was being a realist, he was being pragmatic about what was necessary to win, and he was absolutely right as it was proven when Biden became the nominee. And Wolff was just being idealistic while throwing away any chance of actually making a change, it’s very sad when stuff like this happens and people like Wolff let themselves be carried away by a moment of popularity

[@synchronium24]

I agree that Krugman was more pragmatic, but the more glaring issue to me is that Wolff's position isn't even internally consistent. Wolff simultaneously argued that Krugman (who supports many social democratic policies) is a centrist (9:12) and that Bernie should call himself a socialist. A consistent position would be either "Bernie calls himself a socialist and you should too" or "Bernie is a centrist."

I loved that look on Krugman's face when Wolffe said Krugman's having to defend a centrism that's now being rejected. Priceless.

[@paulkern7229]

That's cause what Wolfe said was BS. Wolf is nothing but an ideologue, trotting out the same old leftist boilerplate.

[@travcollier]

@@paulkern7229 Yep. Wolfe (and Sanders) think that Sanders current political success is some sort of magical "movement" which will usher in their utopia. That look on Krugman's face was astonishment and the ridiculousness. If you want a revolution, take to the streets and get ready to bleed and draw blood in return. That is the only way that happens, and it almost always doesn't turn out well. If you want progress, it will be frustratingly incremental and backed up by people who have more than slogans and grand promises.

[@alexk7942]

​@@travcollier Yes, the storming of the bastille was simply an act of frustrating, incremental progress. There were also no antecedents in the form of intellectuals, politicians, political movements, groups etc etc. Look, true revolutions don't happen over night. And Incremental progress is also rarely how human history changes. The new deal, for example, was a rare detente between capital and labor. And FDR was almost overthrown if you believe in the "business plot," which is not a wild conspiracy. Wolfe understands something you clearly don't. You start with spreading the ideals, you label the enemy, you organize the movement, it grows, and then things do change. Like you say, sometimes in ugly ways, sometimes not. But the masses of people suffering under the current dispensation don't really care about that. I'm sure you'll tell me all about how horrible the terror was in the case of the french revolution as a riposte. I offer you Mark Twain's quote below to nip that BS in the bud: “THERE were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror-that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.”

@@paulkern7229 "That's cause what Wolfe said was BS. Wolf is nothing but an ideologue, trotting out the same old leftist boilerplate." You idiot. Krugman is a tried-and-true supporter of the Clinton/Obama wing of the Democratic Party--in other words, the wing that the last two times it took the Oval Office carried water for the Wall Street, the Pentagon, and the national security/police state apparatus their entire presidencies. He thinks that his support for Obamacare--a plan modeled on one conceived as a "market-based" alternative to "socialist" plans by the right-wing Heritage Foundation--marks him as of the left, which is a sure sign that he's a centrist.

[@travcollier]

@@alexk7942 You are correct that incremental progress is not how change typically occurs in human history. Though you should note that for the vast majority of history, the vast majority of humans were ruled by kings, priests, or other sorts of authoritarian oligarchs. Funny you mention the French Revolution, because the intellectual core of that revolution is what I am genuinely most afraid we are losing. Power gets power and $ gets $. There is no "solving" that big problem, there is only a continual fight against it. Those offering simple solutions to complex problems are lying or deluded. As much as you and more than a few other people seem to like the idea of revolution, I would much rather continue our remarkably long and historically anomalous run of making progress without those horrors and the quite probably outcome of ending up worse than where we started. I really don't mind people who genuinely think Sanders would make a better POTUS than any of the other Dem candidates, but I do object strongly to the masses who *feel* it without much thinking. Authoritarians have an intrinsic advantage playing that sort of game, and the next bullshitting demagogue to get elected may be competent in their malevolence.

[@Laura_Walton]

Bernie has called himself a socialist for 40 years. If he tried to avoid the term now he would be attack as a hypocrite. One of Bernie's biggest strengths is his consistency.

[@johnedward3404]

I THOUGHT HE REFERRED TO HIMSELF AS A SOCIAL DEMOCRAT, BUT THESE ARE ONLY LABELS. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE LOVE HIS POLICIES, CALL THEM WHATEVER YOU WANT

[@777jones]

A lot of history’s worst people were consistent.

[@bobjones2460]

Exactly!

[@c.h.5510]

Not really, MEAN WHAT YOU SAY, SAY WHAT YOU MEAN... his idealism has aligned with socialism, but he's voted as a non socialist

[@Kraisedion]

​@@johnedward3404 He has always referred to himself as a Democratic Socialist, but across the world Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism and Socialism are used pretty interchangeably. If you look at UK for instance even Tony Blair called himself a Socialist, and essentially everyone on the left used Socialist/Democratic Socialist, in other countries it is different.

[@davidl5119]

Oh man. This video kicked in automatically, and oh boy, did this hurt. 💔

[@xanderguldie]

Once Sanders began speaking against the elites, he was done for

[@toddstewart5613]

Listening to Dr. Wolff restores me to sanity

[@niclasjohansson5992]

I don't know. Seems like a agonistic hack.

[@d34dmagg0tz]

Niclas Johansson okay boomer

[@niclasjohansson5992]

@@d34dmagg0tz haha, okay! I just think that the way he argues is fails in grace and sportsmanship. He likes to define socialism in the vaguest way possible. And the he criticise people for not liking the term when the term has meant government control over all or most industries, and also somehow includes capitalist systems.

[@Rompelstaump]

@@niclasjohansson5992 - Wolff defines socialism very clearly, "Democracy in the workplace". It's the name of his channel. Everytime he talks about socialism, he says "democracy in the workplace".

[@lt3746]

@@niclasjohansson5992 That’s because there are different traditions of socialism, different interpretations. The point of the debate is not to discuss what those are, it’s to talk about why Bernie calls himself a socialist.

[@shadowdance4666]

Chris Matthews isn’t the Devil. He’s just an actor. A bad actor with an even worse script writer

[@Tmanaz480]

If he's an actor, he's one of those nutcase actors that stay in character 24 hrs a day.

[@carlkolchak4437]

He is a shill.

[@AZOffRoadster]

The last time he pumped his own gas it cost $0.20/gallon. He lives inside a sound proof mirror ball.

[@sallyatticum]

And a really annoying voice!!

[@vaunniethayer1484]

Chris Matthews has gone off the deep end, totally unprofessional and irresponsible. He should be fired.

[@Jauhgn]

He was the best choice. He would’ve done so many good things for this country it’s so sad he isn’t going into office this January

[@LetsGoGetThem]

"I expects Sanders to be the nominee" In my assessment of American conditions, I didn't even expect he would win in 2016, let alone the presidency. America is the most "advanced" capitalist state on the planet, it is the imperial core. The bourgeoisie is not going to let even the most mildest reformer in to change that. FDR was elected in the pre-imperialist pre-Central Intelligence Agency era. Things have changed, electorally we will never have a FDR ever again. The sooner people realize this the better.

[@brunohubacher2894]

Paul Krugman is running out of arguments.

[@armanraha651]

It's not easy arguing against Richard Wolff. Actually I can't see anyone can do that.

[@beeyaybaracas3240]

@Sudhir Kakar haha salty

[@miktmurray]

Ahhh, Krugman's argument distills down to “people are too stupid to understand what a democratic socialist is, so Bernie shouldn't use that word".

[@Oners82]

No, his argument is that Bernie is NOT a democratic socialist so it is stupid to use the label. Bernie is a social democrat, not a democratic socialist so why give the opposition ammunition?

[@solnstinct7076]

Oners82 Yeah, I don’t understand the incessant defense of using the term. As you mentioned, he isn’t even a socialist.

[@Oners82]

@@solnstinct7076 Yeah, I like Wolff but I think Krugman had a legit point here.

[@oldtimer7635]

@@Oners82 Exactly!!!!!

[@Oners82]

@Jay Paul My point was that he shoud never have used it in the first place because he isn't a socialist. Only in America could such mild progressive policies be described as socialist and be taken in seriously, but regardless he is sill alienating a potential voter base by using the label. Or in case you still don't get my point, my point is not that he should now retract the label and apologise, but rather that it was politically unsavvy to use it in the first place.

[@mikaelfiil3733]

This debate is very interesting and it's timing even more so. Living in Denmark my whole life, I can assure you that we still have a basically capitalistic system, but we also have some counter measures to ensure that it doesn't run wild. It's not perfect at all, but it helps, although we also have a tendency to socialize the losses and privatize the gains. The focus on pandemics, vaccines and the war in Ukraine, with it's global consequences, has shifted the attention away from these fundamental questions of system induced inequality. We urgently need to get (back) to a discussion of general politics and economic systems , so we can see those/all events in the light of politics and a fight about resources, more that the commonly portrayed good versus evil pseudo ideology speak, which is only there to keep us stupid and obedient.

[@lmy2366]

"system induced inequality" such foolishness does not extend beyond ones own imagination. Are we all equal in your world in terms of intelligence, or any other metric for that matter? You can only reduced naturally occuring inequality with force.

[@karljacobson7811]

My 2 biggest concerns are healthcare and cost of college education. We need universal healthcare. The insurance companies are ripping us off. We need affordable college cost. My children did graduate, but it was a huge struggle for us to pay the cost. Bernie is the only one seriously discussing it. Too bad he lost to Biden, but I hope Biden will listen to us and Bernie.

[@superdog797]

There is actually a reasonable case to be made for the healthcare thing, though it's certainly morally questionable in many ways. The affordable college cost thing is the problem. One of the primary and undisputed reasons college price is high is because of government policies. The government making loans available to any and everyone for any degree plan has numerous negative effects. It leads to a massive glut of degrees in the economies which make either no or cost-benefit-negative contributions to the economy. The glut of degrees artificially raises the employment application requirements for jobs that shouldn't require a bachelor's degree for applications - this is why you get people who study social sciences ending up running grocery stores and such as managers, when that whole time studying history or whatever isn't relevant to their employment. Yet these same people are in debt for degrees that aren't price-matched for their earnings, leading many people to simply ignore their student loans. The loans are not taken seriously by the federal government, who even is talking about just forgiving some or all of them, which means that people don't take them seriously in turn, which is totally unfair to the people who actually pay their loans. The college institutions don't care because they are not _incentivized_ to care because the system is designed to just pass money to them for accepting anybody and there is no requirement for the investment to be tied to economic earnings later on. The student loan debt is an insane bubble and people are in droves not going to pay their debts back, whose ultimate end game is just a hidden tax on everyone in the form of inflation, for programs that didn't actually make our economy better in any quantifiable way. Student loans should be given, if they are given at all, with strings attached, including performance metrics and/or limitations to only degrees that are expected to have realistic returns on investment. Economically we would undoubtedly be better off if people only pursued education that would actually pay for itself in the long run, and with the government sponsorship as it is that is an impossibility. The people who go to college for years in their late teens and early twenties with no world experience, no financial experience, no sense of independence, who might not even be good students cannot be expected to just be handed gluts of money and then make en masse good educational choices - it should be something that the system forces people to do through proper incentivization.

[@jesusaguilar4585]

"I'm not a centrist", Paul Krugman. Continues to argue for a public option for those that want it. You can't get more centrist than this.

[@voltaire6668]

That's what they have in Europe.

[@bernges7228]

Private option for those that want it makes much more sense. Like in Germany

[@asphyxiafeeling]

Jesus Aguilar that position seems centrist members of the DemocracyNow! audience because you folks are a million miles to the left of the average US voter

[@RH-po4gr]

It didn’t sound like he was for a public option to me

[@JoeyFiveandDimes]

Jesus A …… After the Allies defeated the Nazi Germans and Imperial Japanese in WW2, one of the UNCONDITIONAL TERMS OF SURRENDER was that the new governments of both nations MUST GUARANTEE a comprehensive, universal, National Heath Care System . Both countries did, and today their citizens are among the healthiest on the planet, with Japan having the longest life expectancy . Meantime the US's has DECLINED .

[@dhammadina8654]

Old people who care about the future of their kids and grand children vote for Bernie Sanders!

[@captainhaire]

Why?

[@DargorV]

@@captainhaire Because his policies put the Working class first in every field. Because his policies take the money from the oversea pockets from the rich and puts it back into the poor's, as it should be. Because if america doesn't wake up and join the "Civilised" countries of the world its gonna crumble under the weight of its own poverty. The US is currently run like a corporation where its employees are treated like dirt. Thats not the kind of country you want to leave your children and grand children with.

[@captainhaire]

DargorV Then he sounds like every other politician. Also you just inadvertently aligned his with Trumps policies. Bernie is far far left. Not a critique. Just the truth. No “civilized” country is so far left. In a nutshell why don’t you, yourself practice what he preaches. More than likely you’ll be very successful if you follow simple guidelines. Then you can participate instead of counting on someone else to use force to do it.

[@captainhaire]

DargorV Also I hate to break it to you, but you are encouraging force. That’s what laws do. All of them. You preach about being civilized when you want to impugn and bend arms because you probably think it beats the alternative. No one at Amazon or Walmart is forcing me (and you) to purchase from them. Is there collusion? Damn right. But no true free market capitalist collided with the government.

[@moestietabarnak]

@@captainhaire Bernie is not 'far far' left, he's center left, if you think otherwise.. you are way too far right and soon to fall into the precipice of fascism, you've been warned

[@ribusgan]

I can see a multitude of Bernie Bros here cheering for Wolff. Someone, who is trained a bit on finance and economics, I'd come to an debate like this expecting some details, which Wolff sidesteps on every occasion. He just keeps insulting Dr Krugman calling him a Centrist. He doesn't give any model, any reason, any method. He's a typical leftist activist I grew up watching in Bengal of 80s - foaming at the corner of their indignant mouth and saying they are right, because they are. It's and insult to his academic identity.

[@alejandronicodemusdelavega5096]

Listening to Krugman talk, I apologize for previous comments. I actually appreciate many of your policy preferences. That being said, incremental change is going to be too slow at this point. The boomers in government are sabotaging the future and I don't understand why. I believe this to be an older video, but I wanted to say I was wrong to chastise Krugman like I did.

[@lochnessamonster1912]

Even if you know nothing of socialism, every American knows the inequities of capitalism.

[@TheDNAGroup]

Is it about forcing equality, or allowing freedom?

[@LawrenceCarroll1234]

Vanessa Costa , in both cases the terms become - in the minds of their detractors - the opposite of what they should be. So, it is either ignorance that causes this, or it is deliberate, conscious, malicious distortion/inversion. A classic example outside politics - but in religion - would be the Crusaders mass murdering both Muslims and Jews, while claiming to be the representatives of Christ.

[@RandroidPrime]

A significant portion of those that know of said inequities don't know that it's due to capitalism run amok.

[@TheDNAGroup]

@@RandroidPrime What do you mean by capitalism run amok? What do you see?

[@lochnessamonster1912]

SPEAKING AMERICAN It should be about an equilibrium, which provides for the best economic and personal outcomes for the most people. That’s how to build a healthy society.

[@mrweasel]

Krugman says that 'billionaires aren''t inherently evil' completely failing to engage Wolff's point that they are a systematic abberation. It is not particularly a comment on their personal morals, but rather their role in the system of accumulating and keeping hold of a great deal of wealth that could be put to far more good than whatever philanthropic crumbs they throw on the side. None of that goes into the real big stuff, which is infrastructure and services...not just R&D.

[@chrislee176]

Instead of using the terms left vs right and socialism vs capitalism, we’d do better to talk about the fundamental use of government force against peaceful individuals vs the absence of it. This is a basic moral and economic issue, surrounded by astonishing and sophisticated sophistry.

[@shirleyreese6832]

Thank you Amy and guests❣🌹🌹🌹

[@Genocide2024]

I feel Wolf is arguing with zombie krugman.

[@jamesfiegel9675]

SHUT UP NAZI!!!!

[@Airith4]

@@jamesfiegel9675 you on crack? xD

[@theblindowl3828]

Hey Commie... Shut Up :))

[@lisaammerman9846]

Stop trying to measure healthcare by how many or few people are left out. For those left out to bankruptcy or death? It doesn't matter. Covering everyone is a must.

[@acid2all87]

best comment in the whole thread, kudos

[@evaggelosk.4086]

If someone has the money to get an insurance and does not do it its his/her fucking problem ," free " healthcare should ONLY provided to the poor .

[@stewpacalypse7104]

Paul Krugman is as inspiring as drying paint. I'll never forget that in 1997 he dismissed the importance of the internet by saying it would be as impactful on the economy as the fax machine.

[@spanky7277]

Democracy is a form of government in which the people have the authority to deliberate and decide legislation, or to choose governing officials to do so.

[@dazedu222]

Some of us boomers aren't sheep. Feel the burn!

[@kathyannpardi9888]

YES!

[@jonasthiel2282]

*bern

[@plinyelder8156]

Ok boomer

[@misstee9453]

feel the burn get to the clinic😕

[@WindFireAllThatKindOfThing]

Glad to see some of the 60's spirit still kicking. Fuck, the 80's ruined us. And that's when I grew to adulthood. Yuppies, coke-fueled Wall Street piracy, Reaganomics, less home for more money, moms having to go to work full time too just to pay the bills, and low-IQ marketeering everywhere.

[@pooshoveler]

What a Boomer... We need old people. You had your chance to improve the world and your greed was more important. Go away.

[@infinitysteppingstone331]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@gregoryparisot6374]

@ITHEREONETHATHASNT Gollum

[@wisconsinfarmer4742]

No I won't go away, I'm staying to fight for Nadar's (Bernie's) vision.

[@TCt83067695]

Lol so savage

[@TCt83067695]

@@wisconsinfarmer4742 we love Nadar. He too is a hero. An underappreciated hero!

[@KleineJoop]

Just here for Wolff.

[@jean-pierredevent970]

Paul Krugman is right. Even here in Belgium when you start about a universal right to a basic income, many people jump on their high horse and shout "communism ! communism!"

[@ThoughtsPlural]

Peace and much respect to Professor Wolff 💯

[@MaoTseFunkadelic]

Paul Krugman: "Why does Bernie call himself socialist? I am for his policies as well" Also Paul Krugman: "I support everything Bernie proposes, but I don't want to pursue any of it because old people who already enjoy it wont understand." There you go Paul, that's the difference. Centrists say they are for those things. Socialists actually fight for them.

[@SAM-ft9jd]

You can be for the principles of the plans and not their implementation.

[@maxmeggeneder8935]

Well said. Just a fact! And that's exactly the difference.

[@maxmeggeneder8935]

@@SAM-ft9jd By your logic anything is possible. Up is down and left is right. No problem, because the concepts don't need to be implemented.

[@chazdomingo475]

"I like his policies, I'm just embarassed by them."

[@charleswashington3973]

You're all insane. Bernie isn't a socialist. That's the crux of what Krugman's saying. I haven't seen anyone in these comments refute that.

[@meldonellis1051]

This is a refreshingly respectful dialogue between two extremely qualified economists. At the time, I was more partial to the Wolf / Sanders perspective as the the path to real change following the disappointment of Obama’s lack of delivery. In retrospect, Krugman’s perspective of incremental change was more grounded in reality. He was not opposed to many of Sanders’ core policies; but he was challenging the the political naïveté of Sanders presenting himself in earnest as socialist in the USA in 2020. Even FDR did not consider himself as socialist but rather as a proponent of capitalism and free enterprise.

[@msp5138]

You clearly have no idea what socialism is so let me help you. The US, like every other country, has a socialist economy. Meaning the government is involved in setting the "rules of the game", giving free money (taxes breaks and bail outs to corporations), protecting certain industries from competition, etc. No country in the world has a "free-market" / capitalist economy because you need rules that will be enforce for any economy to function. You need government intervention to smooth out the boom and bust cycles. You need government intervention to foster and protect new industries. And you need governments to prevent monoply power from distorting the marketplace. Finally, FDR was not a proponent of capitalism because the "New Deal" is the very definition of a socialist program. Now delete you silly post.

[@texajp1946]

thanks democracy now, amy goodman and prof. richard wolff

[@kayomholt-montague7661]

As a 63 years young "older person" I take issue with Krugman! I am a "Bernie Boomer" and will always be one.

[@coolmodelguy6304]

I'm 58 and have already voted for Bernie in the California primary . . . . mail in ballot. Look at the stark reality using 4th grade math. Between households and institutions, private wealth holds over $90 trillion in financial assets. Using an average of 5% interest in one year, $4.5 trillion is added to that $90 trillion. The interest alone is over 20% of our national GDP. One year later the $94.5 trillion makes another $4.725 trillion in interest, which is now 23% of our GDP. At this rate, in 22 years the top 10% will hold all wealth. In33 years the top 1/10th of 1% will hold all wealth. Centrism and the right is a black hole that consumes all wealth, the only way to stop this is to put a hard cap on wealth accumulation for individuals and businesses. . . . this much and not one penny more. The wealthy will get along just fine under a wealth cap, but we will not have anything once the black hole consumes everything.

[@ChristophTungersleben]

your wealth aloud under (adjectiv) administration .... what will a unionist do ad (adjectiv) war ? ....

[@daddyaf945]

Krugman breaks. Wolff runs the table. Bernie 2020 🇺🇸✨

[@nickc19958]

Holy shit. Krugman had a completely different vibe on NPR. Was he always this neo-liberal conjob?

[@PropertyMasterNY]

nicknfancy yes

[@daddyaf945]

nicknfancy NPR is another supposed left wing agency that was left behind years ago. They choose neutrality over objectivity and distort fact to balance a political climate all the time. The Jacobin is a more reliable source of information, imo.

[@tbone5654]

bye bye Bernie. Silly fools insisted on using the term Socialism. Now Wolff and children get to enjoy another 4 years of Trump or Biden. Arrogance and pigheadedness gets you nowhere. Learn!

[@daddyaf945]

T Bone Take a look around. It shouldn’t difficult for you to find someone smarter than yourself to explain reality to you. The establishment policy makers on both sides cares more about their investment portfolios than they care about you. They will continue to side with Wall Street. How much better is your life going to be when corporations get everything they want?

[@loyisomalobola687]

Richard Wolf arguing with a Nobel Laureate Zombie

[@rasikhzaheerthakur5570]

Richard Wolff always carries the day. it has always been a feast to listen to him.

[@tbone5654]

Guess he feeds you the fantasy garbage you love to swallow.

[@kiwitrainguy]

@@tbone5654 Too bad that he gives you indigestion.

[@freddiemercury5659]

Richard Wolff is an idiot who has all these preconceived notions with no empirical evidence to back them up.

[@gray730]

@@freddiemercury5659 yes, i'm sure you, a random youtuber, knows more than an economist

[@jelef001]

I don't understand why more TV shows don't host him! He's the best.