Demogorgon, Prince of Demons | Demonlords of D&D | The Dungeoncast Ep.100

[@drizzo4669]

A -9 AC in 1st edition is the equivalent of an AC of 29 in 5th edition.

[@D1LLDozZer135]

"Shout out to Demogorgon" lmao you're ganna get us all killed 😂🤣😂

[@demonspawn2578]

Shoutout to Demogorgon!

[@paulh3892]

Shoutout to Demogorgon! And shoutout to you guys! Congrats on your 100th episode!!! After listening to your podcast on my way to and from work for a few weeks you two have inspired me to DM a game of D&D for a group of friends in their first ever campaign of D&D. Your fun and candid content was the first thing I refered the group to in order to get a good grasp on game basics, lore, and flavor in preparation for our own play through of the game.

[@Licjr]

You guys should switch roles more often, this was a cool change of pace. Shoutout to Demogorgon 🤘

[@sagemcchesney4734]

Omg it's finally here Demogorgon Edit: wow 100 episodes that's crazy. Congrats guys. I love the show. You guys are great

[@davidelliott2170]

Nice episode as always... When it comes to 1st/2nd Ed AC you seemed to imply you had to roll low to hit a low (eg -8) AC... The player still would want to roll a high number, back then you had a parameter called THAC0 - To Hit AC 0 - which would start at 20 for a 1st level character, that is one would have to to score a 20 (after adjustment) to hit an AC of 0... The same character would need to roll a 10 to hit a AC of 10 - the natural AC of an unarmored PC w/o bonuses - and would need a +10 to hit mod and roll a 20 to hit an AC -10 which was the supposed lowest... THAC0 would reduce with lvl increase, a fighter every lvl - a 20th lvl fighter has a THAC0 of 1 - whereas a wizard 1 every 3 or 4 lvls....

[@Kaizensan1775]

THAC0 is only in AD&D 2nd Edition.

[@rippertrain]

They have no idea what -ac is. Dont listen to them. It was based on a chart. You always wanted to roll high

[@hircenedaelen]

It's honestly amazing how little of that I understand

[@wy100101]

@@hircenedaelen This just shows my age. This is the system I DO understand. I'm just now learning the newer system. Mostly, you just kept track of your THAC0 and you knew what you needed to hit anything. In retrospect, it was unnecessarily complex.

[@ashofcreativity7585]

Give Demogorgon this tag: Psychobabble: When Demogorgon reduces a creature to 0 HP, each creature that can hear the demogorgon must make a DC (let's go 19) Wisdom saving throw or take 3d8 psychic damage as the two heads argue whether to kill the creature immediately Stats for gods can be fun ;) Love the video guys!

[@popechucky]

😂😂😂I’m going to try this👍👍👍

[@danieldurham5891]

if it was 15", that translate to 150 feet indoors or 150 yards outdoors. the " was confusing when one first started playing AD&D aka 1st edition. If " was used indoors then that number referred to increments of 10 feet and if used outdoors, then it was increments of 10 yards,

[@davidelliott2170]

Right, I forgot the indoor/outdoor variation... Nice.

[@claduke]

The shoutout to Demogorgon that ends all shoutouts to Demogorgon.

[@timothywootton5331]

200 hp in first edition was huge. A warrior had d8 hp per level. So if you rolled 8 every level you could reach 200 hp at level 25. Clerics had d6 per level, rogues and mages had d4.

[@eddvultures40]

HELL YEAH!!! HAIL HAIL!! demogorgon!!! 1:20 what do you know ? You know nothing will snow.

[@bravelilspidey]

Dragon Magazine was great in a few aspects. Articles and gaming news, new spells and gear, free small adventure ideas. I am pretty surprised to hear Dragon Magazine, but to also not see one single comment Dragon Magazine. I would say Dragon Magazine is the equavalent to buying DLC for games, you buy a magazine and it was garrantee to have information for adventures to be used. It was before the Internet so just imagine the difficulty and expense of those books and magazines those days, and and you had to learn on your own research what new books there was, without finding them on the internet. Dragon Magazine was also like a search engine for books, novels, appendixes, and so forth. Yup, pretty much like Google.

[@stephenclements6158]

Shoutout to Demogorgon

[@kal-el702]

Hey Brian and Will happy 100th episode!

[@edwardburns1986]

Shoutout to Demogorgon

[@eriaswright6885]

24:25 to skip the short rest

[@PvE2PvP]

It takes away 95% of your dmg away from all spells on him or anything you cast on his is reduced by 95% or at least that's how my older brother used to run it.

[@danielrowan4716]

Magic Resistance in 1/2e was expressed as XX% and was then further modified by the effective level of the spell caster, with it being based on 11th level. So if you were an 11th level spell caster, Demogorgon would completely resist (spell has no effect) your spell 95% of the time. For each level of experience higher or lower than 11th, that resistance would be +/-5%.

[@dtllmpn]

Next Episode, Brian has an extra head like Demogorgon

[@jackfarley9730]

I’ve just gotten into this pod and you two are the best! I just started a planescape campaign and your pod has taught me a lot about the planes! Shout out to demogorgon!

[@several__owls6575]

My boi, the official demon lord of the podcast

[@RandomToon1]

AC -8 is numerically equal to an AC of 28 on 5th edition. Because it was harder to get bonuses to hit, it is probably closer in "feel" to an AC of 30-32 unless you were fighter type class, in which case it was actually pretty easy to hit (1st edition basically had the attack progression in 3.x, just presented differently). The hard cap in 1st ed was AC -10 so he was ALMOST max. It would be much higher in 3.X because of all the ways to get modifiers in that edition, probably closer to 40-50 or something. 15 inch (not feet) movement is listed because the game was originally played with miniatures. A normal human could move 6 inches, so the 5th ed equivalent is 75 feet. To this day, a 1 inch square is equal to 5 feet of movement - it still goes back to 1st edition that way. 200 HP is a LOT for 1st edition. Dragons in 1st ed did not have that many HP, usually ending in the 90-100 range. Fighters at 20th level topped out at under 90hp (depending on stats) and wizards at 20 level topped out at roughly 35-45 if they rolled VERY well. A 5th ed translation would probably be closer to 450-500 HP. 95% magic resistance is the chance for it to nullify an effect from a 9th level caster. For every caster level lower than 9, it was 5% better (so 8th level casters always bounced) and it was 5% worse for each caster higher than 9th (so a 28th level caster had no chance to fail - yes, you could get that high in level). You might recognize this as the exact formula used in 3.X (just presented differently). In 3.X, that is an SR of 29 but in 1st edition you had no way to raise caster level (no items, no spell penetration, no bonuses to caster level from feats or class features...just raw caster level) so would actually be harder to punch through. SR 30-35 would likely be a closer equivalent. +2 special defenses - back in the day, you needed to have a magic weapon of a certain plus bonus to even affect it. In 3.x terms he basically had Magic +2\- against weapon attacks. So, if you had a normal or a +1 weapon it dealt no damage at all, no matter how hard you hit it. A +2 weapon would bypass it, no matter how lightly you hit it. Sorry for the necro, it was just interesting to me. Also, shout out to NetHack!!!

[@johncameron1935]

That probably wasn't fifteen feet of movement speed. That was probably fifteen *inches* of movement speed, since first edition still moved like previous wargames. That would mean that per turn, Demogorgon could move over a foot of real actual table space across the board, and that would be absolutely ridiculously quick. I always thought it was pronounced demo- as in demolition, gorgon. Tripped me up hearing your pronunciation this whole 'cast. EDIT: First edition rogues had to roll percentile any time they wanted to do a rogue skill. Their chance to succeed increased as they gained levels. Both of Demogorgon's heads would get 150 power points to use psionically, since he's got two brains he's got two pools of psychic power. Oof. Second Edit: Nethack is one of the first roguelike games, it is not linear at all. You should give that game a go. It's ridiculously fun and will eat your life like Minecraft. Third Edit: The thing I love about the demon manta rays is that in 3.5e, they were also commonly found as vampires as well. I don't even know how that works!

[@davidelliott2170]

That was feet not inches, miniatures weren't that common in 1st Ed (or 2nd), at least in my experience... The 15 translates to 150 ft, the distance travelled if a round is dedicated to moving. Base for PC's was 12, or 120'/rd. I put an asterisk on this as I'm hauling from memory, and well, that's worse for wear more often than not.

[@johncameron1935]

Thanks for the additional clarification!

[@KS-PNW]

Yeah as David pointed out 1st e didn't really use inches much. That was all the way back in basic D&D. First Edition, despite the name, is technically the second version of the game, although it is the 1st edition of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. Chainmail (D&D's Warhammer style tabletop game) also kept using inches into the 2000s at least. I quit playing around then so I'm not sure if that ever changed.

[@KS-PNW]

Re: vampiric demon manta rays , yeah 3/3.5e just LOVED slapping layers of templates on different creatures.

[@scatteredplanes6667]

Well technically he didn't kill him on his own. He was basically used as an arcane/psionic/divine focus for the entire city of Menzoberranzan so they could magically nuke Demogorgon. It made him go insane though. Shoutout to Demogorgon! Also congrats on the 100th episode.

[@jand.4737]

Demogorgon wants to kill everything, and if anyone else his dead, his heads would kill each other. That's how Mordenkainen describes him.

[@lordgeneralmilitantdeezy7550]

no survivors, not even himself

[@DavidAnderson-hb9pn]

It’s only fitting that the Demogorgon episode is episode 100

[@DavidAnderson-hb9pn]

(Shoutout to Demogorgon)

[@leodouskyron5671]

Congrats on 100 episodes. Been years and I am phone typing this but let me give it a shot: AC -9 In the first and second edition armor class descended so unarmored is AC 10 but if you wore plate you have AC 2. And Demigorgon is -9. Yes that is really hard to hit. Hit points - yes over 200 is big but not too big. PCs stopped getting hit point dice at level 9 and then typically got 2/level after that. (So your fighter is at dice max 90 + con bonus at level 9). So we used lots of healing and healing potions and looked for the regeneration rings under every rock when you are looking at taking down 200 points and -9 ac demon. Far from an impossible enemy but a serous threat. Magic Resistance MR was for everyone to learn at first but if you had to fight Drow you learned it really quick. And it was different in 1 and 2 e by just a bit. Keeping it short (without going into rules too much), MR makes your spell as it is being cast fizzle/fail on the target. Now in some readings and materials, the more powerful you are casting a spell (higher your level) the less the target can resist negating the spell on them. So a mage at high level may still get the spell off but a lower level mage has greater chance of the spell fizzling. It was a crazy complex thing to run but it is a nice long topic that has been lost to 5e and no one is unhappy to see it go - except Evil Drow...and demons..and you get it. Magic the Gathering and D&D They have a troubled history beyond the players and the creators. I recommend you do a podcast on it and how the two games and their companies TSR and WotC interacted from the very beginning and how they affected each other. Really interesting stuff.

[@PrimordialAnnihilator]

Demogorgon's consort is Malcanthet demon queen of succubi

[@rngmstrdan]

I think the kids from Stranger Things played BECMI's expert rules. If I remember correctly in early season 1 Will's mom buys him the expert Set which was new in 83 which was the time setting of the first season.

[@ExtraElliot]

Yes I play 1e and 2e d&d and it is a percentage roll for magic resistance and yes 200hp is really good

[@edwardperez3535]

Great episode guys

[@shadomain7918]

in 1st edition all dice were used. It was less a d20 system than a d-everything system.

[@wy100101]

I know this is 5 years late, but a round was 60s in 2e and 6s in 5e. Magic resistance worked differently between 1e and 2e, but I'm pretty sure he had 95% in 2e which means he was resisted any spell unless you rolled 96-100. There was a spell "lower resistance" that could reduce that, but honestly, if you were facing something like demogorgon, you better not be counting on beating it with spells.

[@NamelessKing1597]

Shoutout to Demogorgon I couldn’t help it

[@xreaperxiii]

Wasn't movement in first and second movement stored in yards?

[@trinisantana]

Congratulations on your 100th episode.

[@Thedungeoncast]

Thank you!

[@luciusschlusemeyer30]

I have to correct you on the -8 AC in todays 5E it would = AC 28 , in old 1st edition the higher the AC the lower the number , but you still needed to roll high to hit AC - 8 . Remember THAC0 . That term was created in 2nd Edition. But used the same to hit table as 1st edition.

[@Antelope2000]

While the lower ac being better is correct, you would not need to roll a 1. In fact, you want to roll high to hit still, but the number you need to hit is based off attacker level and the ac of the attacked enemy. For percentile you would roll that for picking doors, pickpocketing, spell shock survival, resurrection survival, and I am sure I am forgetting something. DM uses d100 (2d10 one for tens one for ones place) whenever they need to do fumbles, criticals or other misc charts. It all depends on what books you draw from at the table, at the end of the day. Great content guys.

[@HungryHungryShoggoth]

I've always pronounced it Demm-owe-gore-gun Hearing the long in the beginning always sounds strange to me

[@phillmoore1561]

Demi-Gorgan is how I do, flows off the tongue.

[@platedlizard]

Friend of the pod Demogorgon

[@Kaizensan1775]

Stranger Things characters are playing AD&D 1st Edition. Their Demogorgon is from the original Mobster Manual. The Eldritch Wizardry is a supplement from OD&D edition [O for Original]. This is three pamphlets turning ChainMail tabletop war game into the birth of RPG in 1974.

[@حَسن-م3ه9ظ]

Dagon comes from Babylonian mythology, originally

[@RichardLehmann1982]

I am playing Ad&d and in order to hit someone with -8AC you have to take a look on your THAC0 (To Hit Armor Class 0) For example. A fighter is 10th level and has a THAC0 of 11. In order to hit a monster with - 8AC the fighter needs to roll a 19 or higher (11 + 8). So you need to roll HIGH and not LOW.

[@wpgme85]

Oh, woof. That description of how to hit an AC -8 was rough for me to hear. Guess they never had to calculate THAC0.

[@ericrecano8557]

I’m showing my age here having played primarily with advanced D&D 1st edition. BUT In 1st addition rules to hit a negative AC(-8) you would have to roll something like a 20 plus 9- I no longer have my 1st edition dungeon master screen but you’d have to still roll high but you are correct in that the lower the armor class was the harder they were to hit. Anyway great Channel!

[@elysiomage9453]

With psionics you had points and you could use attacks or defenses and you could spend them on abilities it was also an optional rule and it wasn’t abilities you spent points to use special magical skills

[@elysiomage9453]

In 1e orcus was more op I think

[@elysiomage9453]

In 1e evil meant self serving not destructive

[@adamholcomb200]

Congrats to you guys on the 100th episode👍🏼👍🏼💯

[@cdr1179]

Shout! Out! To Demogorgon! These are the things I can do without Come on! I'm talk'n to you Come on! 🎶

[@marcduhamel-guitar1985]

Shoutout to Demogorgon! The most hp even Greater Gods had in 1st edition AD&D was 400. Best AC was -10. Demogorgon and demon lords like Orcus, Lolth, etc had Lesser God status.

[@PilgrimofMatter]

Gygax loved percentile dice for wandering monster charts.

[@dahliasdarkside1695]

Now that we have The Forgotten Realms MTG Series I'm sure there's a Demo card now but I'd have to look it up

[@OccultistCaveman2112]

Your 1st edition knowledge is pretty spot on. 👍👍

[@jamesembry4921]

Shout out to demogorgon

[@elladanelvenblade4670]

Thought you already did him. I am now confused.

[@Imjakejones2322]

elladan elvenblade I swear I saw them do this one already too. Maybe Mandela effect lol. Or possibly a different channel

[@ryanulrich2147]

Last night, my players in Out of the Abyss just experienced some of Demogorgon's glory. They were scared as shit and haven't stopped talking about it.

[@TimothyMReynolds]

Yes on magic resistance Not quite on THAC0. You still want to roll high.

[@pitanguirj]

did we have to roll low in prebious editions? Im confused.

[@popechucky]

Vinicius Pitangui yes

[@Kaizensan1775]

Okay, the example of combat in AD&D if off. Ärmour Class is better the lower it is and To Hit rolls need to be above the To Hit number for your class against the targets AC. The AC for Unarmored player races is 10. Armour lowers AC with less p lowest being negative ten. Plate Mail and Shield is 2, Leather is 9. The minimum To Hit is listed in a chart

[@13800jimd]

Thieves abilities were all based on percentile dice rolls. Also even though a lower armor class was better you still wanted a high attack roll at least in 2nd edition advanced dungeons and dragons. can't recall the mechanics. but a natural 20 was a critical hit

[@marvynkawano3090]

Where can I find that Rozvanki character? i’ve been looking it for an hour and couln’d find it

[@mikefahey9910]

Are you sure the movement isn't 15 inches? OD&D was based on tactical games (war games where you measure instead of being on a grid). I think regular movement was 30 feet, or 6 inches

[@andrewpalella9923]

Watching this today and it's so funny to hear about Ravniva coming to d&d after adventures in forgotten realms set for mtg

[@jasonh4098]

The abyss is basically 'the cube' but with demons instead of shitty traps you're not supposed to beat.

[@cadecook8067]

Shoutout to another 100

[@GodwinXZ]

No Angels do not die in their home plane. They do die everywhere else.

[@Jane_8319]

Shoutout to demigorgon!!!!!

[@Jane_8319]

*demogorgon

[@timothywootton5331]

In first edition, 95% magic resistance meant if he didn't make the saving throw then he would resist 95% of the damage rolled.

[@marcduhamel-guitar1985]

Magic resistance in 1st ed was based on 11th level casters. Every level above or below 11th meant that the caster had a 5% better chance per level above 11th to break the resistance, or 5% worse for each level under 11th. So magic cast against a creature with 95% by casters10th level or lower would be totally ineffective. Magic rez was nuts in original AD&D!

[@wagnus1923]

I thought of the upsidedown more like the shadow fey, a dark and drab mirror of oir world

[@unholyerebus4624]

take a shot everytime you hear demogorgon

[@metagamingbastards5379]

You are so incorrect on how attack rolls work in 1st and 2nd. You are correct on magic resistance. AC -8 IS fantastic. But you are still wanting to roll high. In 1st, they had a chart for characters of each class and level. In 2nd, there was a simple math formula called "to hit armor class zero" which allowed you to determine whether or not you hit. You subtract the opposing ac from your THACO to see what ac you hit. Your enemy is ac 3 and you have a thaco of 10. Subtract 3. You need a 7 to hit. A 1 always misses.

[@5-Volt]

Great video guys but Brian.. Why did you use an old stat block for Demogorgon? His 5th edition stat block is in Out of the Abyss and Mordenkainens. It would've been much easier for you guys and viewers to use the 5e stats.

[@HungryHungryShoggoth]

I think a D&D themed MTG block could work. Just like how D&D has multiple settings, or spheres in the case of spell-jammer, MTG visits a different plane of it's multiverse with each block. Now that a plane from MTG is becoming canon in D&D I don't see why it couldn't happen the other way around. They could use magic items as artifacts, obviously the monster manual could be configured into creature cards, and different spells could become sorcereys and instants. They'd never be able to start calling MTG the "D&D trading card game" without a huge outcry though, MTG just has too much deep seeded lore of it's own and I think the community would resent it

[@jaka6584]

Kamigawa all over again

[@MrDe4dGuy34]

Orcus? Graz'zt? C'mon, you got to talk about these bad boys in detail before too long, if you haven't already.

[@elladanelvenblade4670]

Graz'zt is my favorite.

[@MrNickums]

Ep: 100 Of Course. YES!!!

[@KS-PNW]

I think it's 2e they're playing in stranger things, Ive never seen the show but I think it's about the right point in the timeline.. Anyone know for sure? Just weirdly curious

[@jstogdill9195]

Igwilv is one of Tasha’s aliases

[@leesue2]

Shoutout to Demogorgon and all but I'm still looking forward to them doing Fraz-urb’luu

[@stephenclements6158]

I need this Driz'zt episode! I got the feeling we agree on a lot there.

[@joshuac5191]

Skip to minute 28, it's where they start talking about Demogorgon

[@tommartin1223]

Thank u

[@danteprecourt4909]

Thanks

[@etischofer]

Actually you'd have to get a 96% or better

[@MotherMeoww]

Damn skippy demogorgon

[@MysterygamerX1234]

Shiny Demogorgon.😆😆

[@robertcurtis8585]

But what's he aboutttt orcus is undead nihilist, grazzt is pleasure boy, frazzrbluu is a crazy deceiver, what is demagorgon about?

[@markrobles4551]

Typhoon is demongoron

[@judgetato]

D & Mogorgon

[@neuroinsect1944]

I would feel pretty great about a demogorgon card. It really wouldn't be that terribly big for mtg

[@aeoscampaignsetting8489]

Shout-out to demagorgon

[@Looser1121]

movement speed of 15 means 150

[@stephenclements6158]

Love you guys, but your explanation of Attack rolls and AC in Basic, 1st, and 2nd ed is off: to hit an Armor Class the higher the To-Hit roll the better, even if Armor Classes get better the lower they go. The only time in 2nd ed you want to roll low on a d20 is when you are making Proficiency checks. Yeah, it was counterintuitive, which is why they changed it in 3rd ed to what we have now. Magic Resistance is a % roll, and you got that right. 95 or less, the spell just doesn't work on Demogorgon.

[@chuckluggage]

Pretty Much got it Stephen, but The magic resistance is even more complicated. So 11th level you have a 95% chance of spell failure against demogorgon, +/-5% for each level below/above 11th. So a 10th level wizard would have a 100% chance of spell failure, a 12th level wizard would have a 90% chance of spell failure, a 20th level wizard would have a 50% chance of spell failure. Even if your spell succeeds you would still be entitled to a saving throw if you made it past magic resistance. Not confusing at all LOL.

[@chuckluggage]

for 1st edition, I think the same for 2nd.

[@stephenclements6158]

I'm not tracking MR changed to factor in the caster's level, just that it was a flat %. Where'd you get that from? And eww, if that's right, no wonder I ignored it. :P

[@davidelliott2170]

@@stephenclements6158 I recall that rule as well... Not sure if it was buried in the text of DMG or pulled from a Dragon article... Never played with 2 DM's who handled MR exactly the same way as it could throw the power balance off so easily... I always limited it to the "legendary" monsters, properly employed, it made dragons rightfully nigh on indestructible, and the made the Drow one of the most feared encounters.

[@MisterTutor2010]

There are Stranger Things than Demogorgon :)

[@PaulGuy]

In 2e, you would roll percentile dice for a bunch of stuff, but most commonly for saving throws. After that, things became more d20 focused, to the point where now nearly everything is rolled on the d20 except damage and hp.

[@bweefi]

Was I the only one irked by how they pronounced the Demogorgan? I've always heard it as Deh•Mu•Gore•Gun not •Di•Mo•Gore•Gun

[@draxthemsklonst]

Does demogg have anything to do with gorgons in the traditional (I guess Greek) myth? Was it misspelled and possibly referencing a demagogue? This guy is like a hot mess of confusion...on purpose?

[@Thedungeoncast]

In my reading it seemed like this could have been the case. But its more likely his name was translated into what we use now, causing a disconnect that became the norm.

[@draxthemsklonst]

@@Thedungeoncast Much appreciated.

[@MysterygamerX1234]

#Demogorgon

[@alexdawson5331]

Demo-gorgon, not Deemo-gorgon. Yeesh this gave me an aneurysm.

[@t2av159]

Do *HELM*

[@McbrideStudios]

Christian and pagen culture has akways been blending. You'd be surprised how much of Christianity is taken from classical philosophy.

[@joshuac5191]

For as much as y'all fanboy over Demogorgon, I wouldn't expect this to be your literally worst episode. You didn't even start talking about DnD until after the short restand it's clear the other guy is not as great of a researcher. "You know, and like, it's like, It's the Abyss so you know, it's shit." there is no information here

[@donnamcdonald3556]

LOL xoxo 123 Mama

[@TebTengri]

Did not like the flipped script.