Department Store Heating & Control Problems Due To Stupidity

[@DontDrinkTheFlavorAid]

Well when the control tech is getting those national account NTEs with $250 limits, must schedule 3 weeks in advance, must do between the hours of 1PM and 4PM while the store GM is on duty the level of giving a F goes out the window.

[@sherwinalvarez7365]

🎯

[@DontDrinkTheFlavorAid]

Oh don't forget the store stamp or will dock you 10%

[@sivalley]

​@@DontDrinkTheFlavorAid Only 10%? Brinco threatens withholding payment entirely. Oh and if you're not within 500 ft of the site address you cannot check in or out on their stupid app. Don't get me started on how travel time isn't covered.

[@gregs9555]

Been there done that. I ditched a certain department store over exactly what you stated. Never again

[@AdvancingFuture]

All the major corporations are like that when they are using third party software services. Service channel, SMS one, Verisae and ……..

[@TheDeafMechanic]

When I was an HVAC apprentice several years ago a few of the schools I worked at still had pneumatic controls. I still have some of my tools for it. One was all old trane equipment from the early 80’s. All I ever really did was just grease the bearings and swap the belts out. Had a few air leaks we fixed but for the most part it worked pretty good still.

[@paulmace7910]

Those things on the side of the control valves are valve positioners. They have full pressure on one line and pilot pressure on another. That way the valve has more air volume than normally comes through the pneumatic controller. That system was originally set up for simultaneous heat and cool through a pneumatic thermostat. When the pressure went down it was heat and when it went up it was cooling with a deadband between the two. The new EMS has heating and cooling separate. The heating valve and the cooling valve operate opposite to each other. The heating valve is open with no air, the cooling valve is closed with no air. If there is only one air output from that pneumatic controller then yes, you will have to change from heating to cooling manually. Either they need another pneumatic controller or they need to reprogram the controls to match the old pneumatics. Pneumatics can be confusing until you understand what it was intended to do.

[@topher8634]

Usually they are heating 0-8 psi and cooling 13-25 psi. I have ran across situations though where someone installed a RA thermostat where a DA was originally or the wrong spring used when an actuator was rebuilt.

[@HVACRSurvival]

Thank you for the information. Definitely will give me something to remember for later.

[@littleprincess4417]

@@topher8634when my husband was working, they just used a single control to modulate both valves, just like the pneumatic thermostat did. DDC controller sent a 1-10 volt or 4-20ma signal to the module which converted that to 0-15 Psi to operate the valves. The biggest problem with pneumatic systems is they don’t properly maintain the compressor and dryers to keep the air clean and dry.

[@theangrytechnician6649]

That must have been a real nice place in its day. Love pneumatics, cut my teeth on them when I got in at a corporate headquarters. Shame about all the short cuts they did. Thanks for sharing.

[@amarillohomebrewing4602]

Pneumatic valves have different spring ranges, cooling 8 to 13, heating 3 to 8. Low pressure opens heating valve while closing cooling valve and high pressure opens cooling valve while closing heating valve. The device on the side of the valve is a positive positioner that allows a controlling pressure from the duct thermostat to operate the valve at a specific pressure. Temperature at setpoint is 9 pounds will have both valves closed. Positive positioner will allow better control of the valve when thermostat calls for the valve to move. This system had digital controls added, control point for cooling valve and control point for heating valve. Original controls might have had a controller with a winter/summer switch that allowed a thermostat to operate the valve that was needed based on the winter/summer switch. Removing this device and adding digital controls, they have only one transducer to control the valves. That is why they have to change the control wires for the application of winter/summer. They need a separate transducer along with the one they have to allow separate controls of each valve will solve the problem. Thw winter/summer switch was used to block the mechanical device that was not needed. winter = boiler, summer = chiller. Retired, great to follow the work you are doing. THANKS

[@HVACRSurvival]

I appreciate all that information, I did not know those things.

[@littleprincess4417]

You only need to change over on a two pipe system. On a four pipe system, you can run heat and cooling at the same time. In fact, hubby used to do just that to control humidity. He would cool the air to wring out the moisture, then reheat it to get the discharge temperature he needed. Not energy efficient, but that was the way to do it back in the day.

[@wackyworldofwindios3476]

I sure enjoy your videos. I used to work in HVAC/R filed but now I am enjoying Retirement . It is amazing to see how far the service tools have improved . I wished I had some of them back in the day. It would of made the job much easier . Don't work to hard now.

[@HVACRSurvival]

Appreciate it, enjoy your retirement!

[@melonz4011]

Love seeing the industrial side of HVAC from your perspective. Cheers!

[@HVACRSurvival]

Appreciate you watching!

[@MikeF1189]

I love the feeling of showing up to fix 1 little thing, and the more you dig into it the more you find wrong. At some point you just step back and realize, "How the hell is thing working as well as it is with this much wrong. Given all the problems I've found, I'm truly amazed that this is actually running. Look lady, I'm not fixing that little thing, this is a house of cards"

[@HVACRSurvival]

Your not kidding 👍👍 It’s like that way to often.

[@fourbanger]

It's like drinking from a spittoon.....😮

[@aidenp265]

Ain’t that the truth. That’s how I go into any old farm tractor I restore. Was just gonna rebuild the carburetor, but then the fan is locked up, there’s a mouse nest in the clutch, and faulty wiring 😂😂😂

[@tedjar]

The way I understand the expansion tank is thinking in absolute pressure. When drained, it has ~15 psi of air in there from the atmosphere. If you fill it with water that air volume is decreased, so pressure goes up. When it gets halfway the air volume is halved, pressure is doubled, and you have ~30 psi absolute pressure. Since your boiler, tank, you, and everything else is at ~15 psi atmospheric pressure, there is now ~15psi gauge pressure in the boiler system. To put it another way, when you go from 0 to ~15 psi gauge pressure on the tank, the air volume will always halve. So you started with the tank half full of water, and under pressure it was ~3/4 full. The air volume halved. This is why it needs to be drained all the way.

[@HVACRSurvival]

That sounds logical. This is just a metal can, no rubber bladder like a smaller expansion tank.

[@springws14lbss]

Reminds me of the performing arts building I worked in during college. Originally opened in 1978, still has the original pneumatic control systems to this day. Day-Night thermostats, receiver controllers, vortex dampers, etc!

[@burningdust]

Ah yes.. the zone of futility. An obsolete department store just counting down the days till abandonment. In my hometown we have similar. Massive department store anchoring a mall. The cooling gear died years ago. Instead of getting it fixed they just close the store whenever it gets above 83!

[@HVACRSurvival]

Bingo. That’s exactly what this is.

[@jordanhvac7478]

This guy forgot more shit than you’ll ever learn hahah good video! Love the more commercial industrial videos! Keep em coming

[@HVACRSurvival]

Yeah it's a constant learning experience. 😅

[@jaymartin5095]

Thanks for walking us through all this. Very informative.

[@HVACRSurvival]

Thanks for checking it out. You’re welcome.

[@10minutenewhampshirebreak77]

I have had the same experience myself, I had to take over a plant at a hospital after the operator of 30 years retired then went on to the mechanical room in heaven. It took a long time to figure out the seasonal schemes for the valve controls. He had things labeled but it was in done in his personal code. I think he had done it that way so when there was an issue, he had to be called in for OT. Which was actually brilliant for him!

[@HVACRSurvival]

that's how a lot of older people used to do it. They wouldn't leave notes that way if they're not the one there it screws the next guy. We're too damn busy and there's too many calls and not enough people to do that stuff now.

[@timmorris7327]

Looks just like a lot of JC Penny’s I’ve worked on through the years 😂

[@HVACRSurvival]

😎👍

[@codyplant4788]

Exactly what I was thinking. I have worked on several of these department stores and they are always the same. No one knows anything and they sign up a different (less expensive) service agreement company every year or two. Also some companies say they do commercial but they have no idea how to work on controls systems and this pneumatic valves etc.

[@jonathanhensel8929]

Bingo. I’ve smoked plenty of cigs in those penthouses. Use to be good to work for until a realty company took over hvac there. I remember chiller wasn’t coming on because motor was bad on air tank and realty guy came up to penthouse how he had to open up the 40 year old 16” chilled water valve manually. I stopped installing the motor and said oh I need to see this. Obviously he didn’t open it

[@sterlingarcher46]

Amazing the variety of stuff they send you lot to work on. At some point they're gonna have to understand that there's only so many different types of equipment one can know at once .

[@HVACRSurvival]

Bingo, and there’s a lot more that I don’t show

[@aquaticspecialities5382]

I also should mention that I’d be using it to be way more efficient in my work. I’ve been borrowing my coworkers and sometimes it’s annoying when we both need it. It’s an inficon as well. I could really use them in my day to day in both my full time job as well as my company. I love inficon and that’s exactly what my long term tool goals are is the stratus lol😂

[@19thcenturyfuture]

Looks like an electronic to pneumatic controller/transducer The card gets an analog signal input and pulses a solenoid to vary the air pressure to the control valves (like you said) Usually the chilled water valve will be normally closed and the hot water valve normally open, or opposite in the south (direct acting or reverse acting) Then they can be ran off of one line/ control signal (like you said) Thanks for the video

[@topher8634]

We use DA here in Georgia. Heating is 0-8 and cooling is 13-25. Between the two, both are closed.

[@Eddy63]

Good vid & good job with lots of good info ... Thx Rick

[@jasonjohnsonHVAC]

I love me some pneumatics. It can be confusing at first, but when you get some time with them.....they are rather easy to work on. Looks to me sometime that they did some digital "upgrades" and attempted to tie into the pneumatics. A tuned, yes you have to tune pneumatics controls will run and run. Its not as accurate as DDC types.....but they also don't need miles of wires, controllers, programming etc etc. You looked like that was an EP....electronic to pneumatic controller....i have a pneumatic kit to tune valves, controllers, actuators, thermostats ( Direct and Reverse acting ) springs, volume controllers etc etc. Great video as always Rick **** HONEYWELL GREY MANUAL IS FANTASTIC FOR PNEUMATICS ****

[@HVACRSurvival]

Thanks Jason! You likely see them more than me. 👍👍

[@EverythingHVACR]

Nicely done, Rick! I love some good old water source units, add pneumatics and I’m in 👏 💪

[@HVACRSurvival]

Anything for you, Stevo 😂👍👍

[@wired011]

I like the fluke 787 process meter, it will output a 4 to 20 mA so you can stroke the valves and dampers without having to get the BAS system operator involved and waiting on him

[@HVACRSurvival]

That definitely would come in handy, I have a 0 to 30 V DC power inverter that allows me to control current or voltage and that would also work. I think I have 50 bucks in that. I'm sure that 787's pretty expensive but if you're doing it every day, it might be worth it.

[@DoeyPP]

Yes you drain the expansion tank all the way seal it after your repairs.and open it back up to the system. Let the system fill it you don’t start out half full.

[@terryh8421]

Real world repairs, good video.

[@orcus79orca5]

Wow, were corners cut in that install. I'm betting there was a bank of mercury switches and master control to switch between cooling and heating, possibly even an analogue OAT sensor that would swap between heating and cooling. When they went to that automation system, that would have been all removed and should have been replaced with a relay bank, thats how they did it when the local library here was swapped. The arena of the same vintage of the building you were working in still has the mercury switching, now abandoned as the system is heat only now, no fresh air cooling or mixing, just 100% heating on the dampers and motor control for the fans. As far as I've experienced as well, at least in the buildings I look after the pneumatic actuators are a normally open fail state, if they loose pressure they fail open, or actuate the fans to pull heat from the heating coil (steam).

[@HVACRSurvival]

You're right, that system was a mess!

[@topher8634]

If youve got pneumatic smoke dampers, they will fail closed with no air pressure. If there are PE switches on the starters, your motors will likely stop, however they are usually jumped.

[@topher8634]

I have the compression style expansion tanks where I work. They can be a pain if you've got a lot of leaks in your loop, but they last a lot longer than the bladder type.

[@HVACRSurvival]

Yeah definitely lasted longer. I mean it's been in there since 1967. I think when the place was built.

[@topher8634]

@HVACRSurvival ours are over 50 years-original to the structure. I make it a habit to shut down and drain back to atmosphere twice a year. When I got there, no one knew how they worked and couldn't understand why the reliefs were opening on the fire tubes. It took me all day to get all the sediment out of them. They were half full of junk. I don't think they had ever been drained.

[@kevinpoore5626]

Hey man when it comes down to meters I'd love to own a fluke because almost all fluke meters are damn near bulletproof I just can't afford to get another one my last one got killed hard tire forklift will do that

[@helmsajr]

Great job Rick i never liked pneumatic control pain in the but.

[@johnwalker890]

Good job Rick, Someone did a big dummy move on the controls..........

[@FPHA697]

Thanks for video brother!

[@HVACRSurvival]

Appreciate you watching!

[@williamholley1232]

So frustrating without a good set of electrical prints and pid's, no one ever has them or keeps them updated sadly

[@Brooks.Mechanical.Electric]

I built what I call my industrial meter kit which includes the Fluke 87-5, 376 clamp, and the 1507 megohmeter. You can do almost anything with those, it's just a bulky kit. I carry a fieldpiece sc480 for standard stuff. I like the small size of it and it has inrush, phase rotation, watts and power factor, and cat IV safety rating. Also millivolts and micro amps. Really tough meter. A tech can only be as good as the crap he has to work with.

[@HVACR559]

Gets even bulkier with my daily carry, the 87 MAX. Mine was completely drenched last Monday working all night in a heavy fog that might as well been a drizzle. FLUKE says it can handle it🤞. I was spraying WD-40 on all of the tools at the end of the night. I don't have a megger yet, the so I rely on the nanosiemens measurent in the 87, hasn't lead Mr astray yet. One day I would like to compare the Ns to a FLUKE megger and see how close it is. Definitely not as fast as a megger as it takes a considerable amount of time to settle. 0.01 nS = 100 GΩ 0.02 nS = 50 GΩ 0.04 nS = 25 GΩ 1 nS = 1 GΩ 2 nS = 500 MΩ 10 nS = 100 MΩ 20 nS = 50 MΩ

[@HVACRSurvival]

All great meters. I have the 376 and I used to have a fluke megger, but somebody stole it. Now I use a cheaper mega meter

[@DoeyPP]

The valve you have the meter on says CW on it chill water. Not hot water

[@throttlebottle5906]

are the brass(or stainless) friction rings missing on the sight glass nuts?

[@HVACRSurvival]

I’m pretty sure they were in there. They were probably just stuck to the nut. Beggars can’t be choosers.

[@coreyr8870]

The extra cable in the box was for the other I/p.. a retrofit should have had one signal for the cooling valve and one for the heating valve, then use the ems to control when each opens. As others said cooling valve is fail closed, heating valve fail open to full heat.

[@HVACRSurvival]

Yeah, that was a dumb move on their part. The other air handlers had two control boxes. This only had one.

[@joshstevens9826]

Pneumatics fail to heat. 0 psi is full heat. Typically 15 psi is no heat. Opposite for cooling. 0 psi is no cooling 15 psi is full cool.

[@adamdnewman]

It's hanging by a thread LOL

[@johnlangley6449]

What a hot mess they lucked out that a experienced person was willing to deal with this crappie system most guys would have walked away 😮

[@halfstep67]

What kind of old boilers did those stores use?

[@HVACRSurvival]

The current one was a Weil McLain. I'm not sure what that old thing was.

[@billlaporte8255]

LOVE your vids man, but are you saying "acrossed"/"across't" or is my audio messed up?

[@HVACRSurvival]

I’m not sure which section that you’re hearing it at, but I would guess that it’s probably across with a D behind it😁🤫.

[@RSBot2jar]

Nice one :)

[@snidelywhiplash8923]

What a puzzle.

[@xraybravo7180]

Is this like an old maycs mall store or something?

[@HVACRSurvival]

Yeah, it’s a big company just like them. The Macy’s that was in this particular building has already left.

[@memsu06]

I'm a HVAC controls guy and it's absolutely stupid the way they did that. The controller has a separate output for the chilled water and hot water valve, but they only used one pneumatic signal for both valves. They choose the cheap way out to save a few hundred dollars and now people have to manually swap modes. Dumb dumb dumb. One valve should default closed and one open with loss of signal. This will vary if you are in the South or North. I would have controlled both valves independent.

[@HVACRSurvival]

I had our Controls guy there with me and he agreed, it was the installing contractor skimping out. What’s weird is the other air handlers had two controllers🤷‍♂️ where this one only had one. I don’t know if it was a last-minute cut to the budget or an overlooked thing and they just didn’t care to come back or what.

[@coreyr8870]

Typical Trane control system quality work. Someone didn't install or finish the install of the I/p. The positioner should give it a more accurate position. You should have two air signal lines from the two I/P's.

[@GlenS123]

To properly set compression tank you have it should be drained completely to atmospheric pressure, then let refill. If it had a Airtrol fitting, then it would be different. Personally would have removed sightglass and put two 1/2" plugs in, useless anyhow. There was zero issues with pneumatics, all hacked up DDC was to blame, really stupid set-up.

[@HVACRSurvival]

I kinda like having the sight glass so you know whether it's waterlogged or not. God knows they're not doing any kind of maintenance.

[@commenter5469]

Well - that was a brain wrecker!

[@anthonyalexander2472]

Wow you definitely know your shit

[@HVACRSurvival]

I appreciate the support. Thank you for watching.

[@Kangenpower7]

I was yelling at my TV and said 0 PSI is full heat call in a Pneumatic system. You could have looked at the working air handler, and see "That valve is also at 2-3 PSI (normal for a heating system not in full heat mode, but at about 60% call for heat)". Then when the temperature reaches say 68F, the pressure might go up a bit to partly close the hot water valve. I used to charge the water expansion tank with some air, and that will allow the water to go out under pressure. They can take up to about 20 PSI of air pressure to speed up the water leaving the tank.

[@larryfried7742]

I've seen better systems in WWII submarines. Start the diesels and watch out for hydrogen from the batteries! lol :-) Whatever you do DON'T HIT THE RED BUTTON!

[@HVACRSurvival]

Yeah that's what I was thinking, at least the subs were reliable. This system was just a mess.

[@gaylen8467]

seasick

[@oldcarnocar]

what a fubar

[@ValDominator]

All this negativity is hurting my central nervous system

[@HVACRSurvival]

If you’re talking about me, then I’m probably not the channel you wanna watch. This is real life repairs I’m not here to show boat. I’m not here to kiss your butt. If you wanna learn something and you wanna see how it’s done then I’m the channel for you if you want Roses and feel good agenda check somebody else out.

[@ValDominator]

@@HVACRSurvival Well I already know everything so I'm not sure why I'm watching your channel

[@HVACRSurvival]

Exactly 👍 thanks for $.01 your view paid me.

[@anthonyprochilo1302]

Could not watch a tech complain while on a HVAC service call ,

[@HVACRSurvival]

Move on then. You’re bitching about me expressing my opinion. Your just as bad