'Design vs. Chance' by PZ Myers, AAI 2009

PZ Myers' lecture at the Atheist Alliance International 2009 conference in Burbank, CA. Watch this KZbin channel for many more talks from the conference.
Download Quicktime (720p HD):
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Produced by The Richard Dawkins Foundation and R. Elisabeth Cornwell
Filmed and Edited by
Josh Timonen
AtheistAlliance.org
RichardDawkinsFoundation.org
scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/

[@chrisofnottingham]

"Metaphors are useful for getting across basic concepts to people but they are not the foundation of a strong logical argument" I love that sentence.

[@BrigadierButtons]

I met him in melbourne. One of the best days of my life.

[@tesseraktik]

"There's beer out there!" - PZ Myers, visionary

[@gradsssara]

When he talks about abandoning the faith at 37:23, I really could relate to that because I felt lied to by my pastors at my church which was one of the many realizations I came to, and eventually lead me to my own atheism.

[@tommerphy1286]

@intelligent design: do the math ... the only science that is true the rest are theory from reverse engineering ! There ain't a name for the number of the odds of all the necessary occurrences which start life to occur by chance. If it was science could create LIFE every day. But cannot without a STATER KIT FROM GOD!!! or correct me please. Respect

[@dynamic9016]

I've learned tremendously from watching this video.

[@armchairrockstar186]

This man really helped me get over "complexity" argument....

[@timid3000]

Unfortunately he missed out the key part of the argument, funny that. The ID proponents do not speak of complexity but specified complexity. DNA is highly complex but it’s also specified and the specificity is the key component that points to design. The coding is functional information (directing the building of proteins etc) not just a complex assortment of base pairs. In the natural world, there may be various examples of complex arrangements such as the drift wood wall but there is absolutely no example of specified complexity including information that happened by chance. Think of a drift wood wall, you may be lucky to find a few random letters such as an A or a H that formed by pure luck in the pile but if you found them arranged in a sentence such as “this drift wood wall happened by chance”, you would absolutely be right to conclude that a human had arranged the drift wood. That’s the difference between complexity (the drift wood wall) and specified complexity (the wall arranged to convey information). I’m currently reading Stephen Myers book, Signature in the Cell. He repeatedly refers to the specified complexity found in cells and never just the complexity. You should ask yourself why would PZ Myers stop short of fully explaining their reasoning behind the complexity found in cells. Particularly as he is the one implying that it’s the ID proponents that are dishonest. Essentially he is attacking a straw man. If he’s so right and they’re so wrong, why would he need to straw man them? Peace.

[@capjus]

@@timid3000 its always like that.. "not only complexity complexity complexity, also other complexity complexity complexity, they can't be random, its too crazy, therefore ID"

[@purpose6113]

@@capjus he gave you a legit argument and you threw a 5 year old tantrum

[@capjus]

@@purpose6113 specificness and beautiful arrangeness can happen out of mess and complexity. So what?

[@purpose6113]

@@capjus lol you need to work on your reading comprehension skills, bud. He said that it's complexity in a way that it conveys information. This might come as a shocker to you, but this reality is made of information. This means that it's made of symbolism, and that symbolism conveys meaning. This isn't woo stuff, it's real physics. Let me recomend you a mini-documentary called "What is reality?" by a channel called Quantum Gravity Research

[@pnktronic]

Thanks for uploading. Really interesting!

[@gupsphoo]

Amazing lecture, Dr. Myers!!!

[@SocialAnathema]

I'd never seen P.Z. Myers speak before. Very impressive. Teach basic philosophy and critical thinking in schools. I agree completely.

[@tommerphy1286]

@Myers . Let's start at the very beginning (tube froze you on my unit at 22:17 so maybe you covered this). We all come from an egg CELL,YES? That egg cell that contains the instructions (lungs,liver,heart,etc eventually into (under just the needed atmosphere and nourishment for 9 months,) bingo a child. From a single egg cell. Now from personal experience I wasn't born with knowledge I have had to aquire it. How did that single cell aquire it's blueprints if it was floating around in a puddle for 9 months trying to be a human. Or something.

[@rembrandt972ify]

@@tommerphy1286 Humans don't have blueprints.

[@tommerphy1286]

@@rembrandt972ify don't tell that to anyone who has a medical practice

[@rembrandt972ify]

@@tommerphy1286 They already know.

[@tommerphy1286]

@@rembrandt972ify how would YOU categorize an illustration of the different systems of the human body?

[@zencat999]

perfect way to end a lecture! "theres' beer out there!! yaaaaaa science!

[@kamrupexpress]

This was a fantastic talk.

[@0The0Web0]

Love his talks 👍

[@dazedandconfused698]

The key feature of design is simplicity, not complexity

[@stevebailey6195]

There is no argument between science and religion,or was over when they started fitting lightening conductors to church steeples!

[@ArshikaTowers]

Thank you for explaining it better.

[@dios420]

this was a very good way to get your point across.

[@zebonautsmith1541]

Complexity is simply a long long chain of many many simple events piled onto one other through time.

[@kevinwirth4767]

Myers stupidly (and I suspect deliberately) omits a key nuance in the ID argument. It's not just about "complexity" as Myers alleges. The ID argument clearly provides a nuance Myers fails to mention, aka SPECIFIED complexity! See my comment for more on this....

[@SodieStar]

i love his voice... can listen to him all day :)

[@SHansen82]

I love that he says at 32:00, the real heroes of science education have to be kindegarten, 1st & 2nd grade teachers.

[@TumbleweedMK4]

such an awesome and nice guy

[@PhillipTweedy]

Ever notice how Creationists never think their gods were "created by chance?"

[@kijul468]

Or the people who argue that something is so complex it must've been created, then argue their creator is infinitely more complex than that, but in the same note say he wasn't created.

[@TheIceThorn]

I don't know what's funnier, the answer of Myers or the creationist whining down there, lol...

[@horaceball5418]

This genius (PZ Myers) said : "Humans are fish." Don't believe me? Go check out this brilliant comment on www.evolutionvsgod.com at 6:27.... "Nearer my Cod to thee....."

[@noah7477]

@@horaceball5418 as far as cladistics are concerned we are fish

[@horaceball5418]

Please answer this question....if some DNA were sent to a crime lab....would the lab be able to declare "It is from a fish" or "It is from a human"? If so, how?

[@noah7477]

@@horaceball5418 from a human. Because we don't have clownfish or flounder dna. Pretty easy to distinguish

[@horaceball5418]

EXACTLY! Trust genetics and biochemistry more than you trust man made cladistic drawings based upon imagination.

[@88mphDrBrown]

One thing to keep in mind when listening to or dealing with the "scientific" figureheads of the Discovery Institute is that what they're saying isn't ignorance, it's almost always abject dishonesty. They're fully aware of the countless studies, experiments, papers, and other examples that disprove most of their claims.

[@Buddhabebop]

i commend you on your incredible patience

[@UniteAgainstEvil]

p.z. myers thinks people are fish, hahaha

[@StaticBlaster]

Actually, we all start off as fish. You looked like something that resembled a fish in your mother's womb before evolving into a human baby. Study embryology instead of listening to charlatans that try to dupe you.

[@stormcloud2661]

Better fish than mud and ribs....

[@BachScholar]

(continued) Regarding the young man's question about humans evolving vs. dogs evolving. "Micro-evolution" means minor changes within a species (like humans becoming taller or changing skin color through time) while "macro-evolution" means evolving to another species (like a tiger evolving into a lion). That humans evolved from a gorilla-like animal (macro-evolution) is about as likely as tigers evolving into lions or vice versa.

[@Rico-Suave_]

Watched all of it

[@GODTHESOOTHSAYER1]

Great Video!

[@LAlba9]

"[Complexity} is just another word For nothing left to lose. --Bob Dylan

[@uncleanunicorn4571]

The wall example is very powerful.

[@PascalsFolly]

God, the limbs I'd give to have PZ as my Bio professor.

[@tellnet]

Ah ha... We responded simultaneously... Must be magic !

[@Ceenymeeny]

@algadykhalifa The purpose of the driftwood example was to show that nature produces chaotic and random needlessly complex things, and that the hallmark of good design is simplicity, not complexity like the ID proponents claim.

[@swampyziggy123]

@vachief Well yeah because a uniformed brick is placed beside another, and above/below another so the layers overlap, filling the gaps with cement. It's a very simple principle when compared to interlocking, uniquely shaped and weighted trees being thrown onto each other over time and ending up looking like a large haystack. A wall is made up of 180 and 90 degree angles and horizontal and vertical lines, while the driftwood stack probably doesn't contain two angles or lines that are the same.

[@carryall69]

@HolyRevelation what's the thing with information-theory vs. evolutiontheory, that evolutionary mechanisms such as mutation cannot generate new information?

[@reddragonready]

In the 21st century, a better understanding of the human genome has shown that greater divisions exist within races than between them, a finding that would probably have amazed - if not enraged - Henry Fairfield Osborn.

[@ThePultzFamily]

Exactly!

[@zencat999]

@HooahW2475 that is some of the best rhetoric I have ever seen. and so true. good job. cheers

[@BattlePope]

Fantastic use of the Mighty Thor!

[@prezoftheworld]

yay for beer!

[@higy33]

here here

[@Ancor3]

Humans have the tendency to see order and meaning even in the absence of order and meaning. This evolved quirk has been confirmed many times and something tells me that it wont go away that easily.

[@miamidan44]

@jib1000 "The fact that you don't notice it doesn't mean it isn't there." Ok, agreed; you can run it into the ground, but I did clarify that what I was referring to was only the perception of, and not the actual timing. Even if all the things you've said about perceived flaws in designed things is true, the point i made, even the instantaneous part (considering how I was using the word), is still valid.

[@reddragonready]

Racism certainly didn't originate with Osborn (or with evolutionary theory), but he tried to give scientific-sounding reasons for deep racial divides. Jim Crow segregation laws were already in effect in the American South. Thanks to the eugenics movement, those laws were supplemented with immigration quotas, asylum admissions, incarcerations and forced sterilizations.

[@ThePultzFamily]

I agree!

[@pseudosaur]

It was in this context that I stated it can be likened to the four points of the compass. Since HT was saying that Isaiah believed the earth had corners I used the compass terminology to clear that up. Yes there is some disagreement on whether Isaiah wrote the whole book, but the evidence for a single author outweighs the evidence for more than one writers of the book.

[@TomSFox]

@Snarfoidosis Thank you!

[@carryall69]

@HolyRevelation i don't know about statistical processes, but as i understood it, new information is regularly generated in evolution, whenever a novel mutation or gene duplication arises. examples of new traits have been observed for instance in recent years, such as nylon-eating bacteria, which developed enzymes to efficiently digest a material that never existed before the modern era.

[@ExtantFrodo2]

The Ensatina salamander is a ring species. The species grouping forms a U shape around the mountains, & though interbreeding can happen between each of the 19 populations around the U, the E. Eschscholtzii subspecies on the western end of the horseshoe cannot interbreed with the E. Klauberi on the eastern end. So it is an example of incipient speciation, & provides an illustration of "nearly all stages in a speciation process" (Dobzhansky,1958)

[@benthemiester]

@ClumsyRoot As for mentioning Flew, theres only a five hundred word limit. The first to change his mind was Fred Hoyle and this was long before the phrase Intelligent Design was even popular. Others to follow were Wilder Smith, Dean Kenyon, Charles Thaxton, John Sanford, Michael Behe, Michael Denton, Scott Minnich,.....

[@cyberslick18]

He's most famous for his blog, Pharyngula, if you didnt know that already. Very interesting stuff, certainly worth reading.

[@INSOMNASTALGICAL]

100% RIGHT! We have everything we need to bring down the creation argument on the 'larger' levels. Although, the direction that is now being pursued by creation lobbyist is the area of 'Micro-Biology', were still in the development of truly understanding where and how these 'little machines' (as they would like to call it) came about. I'm reading the 'Darwin's Black Box' by Micheal Behe... and although it totally misses the point, it does show we have yet to uncover the essentials of life. (:

[@reddragonready]

As man advances in civilisation, and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simplest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instincts and sympathies to all the members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him. This point being once reached, there is only an artificial barrier to prevent his sympathies extending to the men of all nations and races. Charles Darwin; The Descent of Man, 1871

[@DecentExposureMedia]

(cont) "It would seem likely however that a form of chemical natural selection took place to 'create' living organisms" I'm curious, based on what experiment?

[@pasqualetrotta1228]

May I sub this video in Italian and re-upload it? O.o

[@pseudosaur]

I also did not claim that the compass was in existence at the time of Isaiah but that his use of four corners indicated a sense of direction as with the use of the term after the compass was invented and not that he thought the earth was flat. The hebrew word translated circle does indicate that he knew the earth was round as he could have easily said that God sits above the square of the earth.

[@reddragonready]

A secondary issue is that this text is part of Deutero-Isaiah, often ascribed to the 6th century BC (and thus roughly contemporaneous with Pythagoras). So you can forget about using Isiah 40:22 Pseudo ;)

[@reddragonready]

Darwin's most extensive discussion of human race was put forward in his 1871 book The Descent of Man. This book has been greatly misused by opponents of Darwin because in The Descent of Man Darwin assesses all of the various ideas about race that existed at the time, presenting many ideas of other people, which he later goes on to refute. In The Descent of Man Darwin takes questions such as "Are people composed of different species?" and he puts forwards all of the arguments for each position.

[@reddragonready]

Such people have generally visited at the houses of the upper classes, where the domestic slaves are usually well treated, and they have not, like myself, lived amongst the lower classes. Such inquirers will ask slaves about their condition; they forget that the slave must indeed be dull, who does not calculate on the chance of his answer reaching his master's ears. --The Voyage of the Beagle; Charles Darwin, 1839

[@benthemiester]

@iliveon cont.....Did the new species gain some new or novel genetic information or did it lose genetic information which gave it a functional advantage? If so what is that functional advantage? The poodle had a common ancestor which was a wolf

[@lightuponlight87]

That's a good point. I think they're trying to convince themselves more than us.

[@Salafrance]

The process is repeated until an acceptably fit solution is found. Each member of each generation is subject to a small random mutation, to introduce a probabilistic driver into the population. Mutations that are harmful leave the solutions in which they occur at risk of being reaped according to the result of the fitness function. Mutations that work, are preserved for subsequent generations in the configuration of the genome describing the solution in which they occur.

[@lightuponlight87]

To be honest, I heard Kent Hovind use it in one of his debates. The doctor replied saying it doesn't apple when it has large amounts of energy or something like that. Hovind rebuted it using explosions. I havn't study bio or chem for a long time. I studied entropy as a senior in highschool.

[@guitarslim56]

Gotta love a biologist who maintains a healthy respect for the evidence of beer!

[@reddragonready]

@pseudosaur text says "circle", not "sphere". The Hebrew word translated as "circle" is generally recognized as referring to a plane figure, perhaps the horizon, or possibly the vault of the heavens.

[@reddragonready]

There is considerable debate about the dating of the text; one widely accepted critical hypothesis suggests that much if not most of the text was not written in the 8th century BC.Tradition ascribes the Book of Isaiah to a single author, Isaiah himself. It is a matter of common agreement among scholars that a division occurs at the end of chapter 39 and that subsequent portions were written by one or more additional authors. Coincidentally that passage referring to the circle...chapter 40!

[@SlavaVB]

"Of these two walls which one is simpler?" ... in terms of optimization and material economy... definitly the the one made of trees.

[@pseudosaur]

If a desired result is to be manipulated, then an end result has to be computated, the desired result cannot be acheived sequentially, but all the components have to be applied simultaenously in ordered to acheive the projected results, this is scientifically tenable....

[@miamidan44]

@jib1000 "a human eye can't do anything INSTANTANEOUSLY." For all intents and practical purposes it is instantaneous because there is no noticing the passing of any time when we refocus on something else; it is to that that i was referring, not to the actual timing.

[@miamidan44]

@jib1000 Computer viruses are designed. Cameras are designed (and let's see them focus instantaneously when focusing on something immediately close and then across the room), All your examples are designed, AND borrow from the designs found in nature in order to design them. However, I am grateful for you arguing my point for me.

[@JailBreaker903]

damn, at the beggining I was almost praying that he would throw in a picture of Ray Comforts infamous banana design argument XD

[@garith21]

@christianthinker 1) technically the universe has a relative beginning, however there's no reason to think that the universe was finely tuned, in order to state that you'd have to know how universes are made or formed, which is difficult in a sample size of one known and not knowing how it's formed. 2) Morals differ by culture and how one feels about it is affected by genes, this is why there's such things as psychotic killers that get a feeling like going out on a first date when killing (cont)

[@swisscheesepotatochi]

@vachief what kind of questions does it answer?

[@miamidan44]

@miamidan44 you would need to complete it, decide what order and then lay the bricks in the right order and to what height, apply the right amount of grout (cement or whatever).... Of course the random log pile was much more complex.

[@WiiDSRebeL]

When these cells talk to each other, do they use a cell phone ?

[@reddragonready]

There is an occasional opinion offered that an early statement of a spherical earth occurs in the 8th century BC, in Isaiah 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth...". There are problems with this claim, the most obvious being that the text says "circle", not "sphere". The Hebrew word translated as "circle" is generally recognized as referring to a plane figure, perhaps the horizon, or possibly the vault of the heavens.

[@pseudosaur]

So why is the brick wall less complex than the random drift wood on the beach?

[@revo1974]

@nextghost Stars and black holes are essential components of the overall design -- and the multiple rolls they play in my opinion is further circumstantial evidence for a designed universe. Stars' tremendous mass attracts astronomical bodies to them. Over time these bodies collide with one another and form planets and moons. Then through thermonuclear fusion they release energy into space providing the necessary ingredients to these orbiting planets/moons for life...

[@reddragonready]

@pseudosaur Yes it has already been established it was clearly poetically meant.

[@garith21]

@christianthinker He stated it was begging the question which is related to circular logic, where the conclusion is assumed in the premise. IE "complexity can only be created by design" is something that should have to be demonstrated rather than assumed. I should add that if we assumed this was true then the far more complex, super intelligent, super powerful designer must clearly have a designer by the same reasoning.

[@DCCycling]

@vachief Gotcha. That is the debate ender. As long as you don't want anyone else to be subject to your holy books, we can go our seperate ways.

[@EvenGodsSuffer]

@vachief The Hellenistic culture, of which Greek was the common language, was spread by Alexander and his generals. The Seleucids spoke Greek. They built gymnasia in Palestine, attracting young Jewish men and fomenting the Maccabean revolt. The Ptolemys spoke Greek. Cleopatra was a Ptolemy and spoke Greek, long before Justinian. I've already pointed out the "born again" pun in John which could have made sense only in Greek. Ehrman also mentions passages in Mark which hint at an Aramaic base.

[@capjus]

When i heard stephen meyers, all his kinda discussions, this was exactly what it came to my mind about. Whatever he speaks: complexity complexity bla bla.. then omg, can't be random omg.. therefore ID omg omg omg its a proof OMG OMG OMG!!!!

[@SystematicInternaliser]

The laws of thermodynamics say that in a closed system, the enrgy levels equalize over time. Which they do. That does not exclude complexity and high order. High order is possible if the overall system gains disorder. I can quote the laws if you want. The point is that chemics, which evoltion genetics etc. are based on, can only be possbible under the law of thermodynamics. The laws of thermodynmaics are compulsory for evolution.

[@benthemiester]

@ClumsyRoot I responded to your thread but I dont see it posted. If you did not get it then let me know and I will send again. Since I live in Rancho Cordova you should have gotten it in a flash.

[@StephenReynolds_MasterMind]

You can always Tell When Someone has a weak argument. They Mock Make Fun and Laugh, Rather Than Think

[@reddragonready]

When John Thomas Scopes was tried for teaching evolution in Dayton, Tenn. in 1925, Osborn played a substantial but complicated role in the defense. Scopes's supporters frequently turned to Osborn for information, and Osborn worked furiously to demonstrate that evolution and religion could peacefully cohabitate. But rather than making the "non-overlapping magesteria" argument that Stephen Jay Gould would make decades later, Osborn infused his interpretation of evolution with religious conviction.

[@revo1974]

@nextghost ...creatures I speak of required a designer(s) to set the initial conditions which allowed evolution to take over and take place. After-all the circuit didn't just come about and then evolve all on it's own now did it? ;)

[@vryc]

@HonestMan395 "Actually. Abiogenesis, which is the creation of life from in-organic chemicals is on the verge of being performed." And there's already been RNA produced in the lab through this method in 2009 out of University of Manchester.

[@reddragonready]

@pseudosaur The Talmud (Bava Basra 15a) says that the book of Isaiah was written by King Hezekiah and his assistants

[@benthemiester]

@ClumsyRoot cont....Guillermo Gonzalez and many others to numerous to mention. The "Dissent from Darwin" list contains almost a thousand signatures of scientist including award winning scientist from the American Academy of Sciences and major universities who have jumped ship, and the list of signatories has been growing steadily since 2001 from a list of one hundred. Not only are ID theorist challenging the modern evolutionary synthesis and now....

[@revo1974]

@nextghost ...in the formation of galaxies. Now, are all of these critical functions which permit harmonius systems and which allow life(the most dynamic component of the universe) to exist just a matter of freak chance or is there some greater purpose to all of this; I believe the later.

[@PDZdomain]

Last time i checked driftwood walls can only form in very certain conditions as well. They only happen when there is a shore, and there is a wide variety of debris to be accumulated. Sounds just as non-haphazard as bushes and trees.

[@StaticBlaster]

"peanut butter and chocolate" LOL. I'm eating Reese's peanut butter cups right now.

[@jib1000]

@miamidan44 On the contrary that is exactly what it means. The fact that naturally occurring systems are full of "flaws" implies that they are not in any way designed, but rather evolved.

[@LesPaul2006]

@Aanthanur Are you saying that a thunderbolt happens because of mere chance?

[@vgrof2315]

Excellent. Good that Ray Comfort got another slap down. Hit him again, harder, harder!

[@TheIceThorn]

@TheIceThorn shortening it: complexity is made from some simple things combined; design =/= complex cause it's create something with a purpose, a stone axe is designed but it's not something complex for example. Design do not needs or means complexity they're different things.

[@vryc]

@1tabligh Some questions for you: 1) Are you certain there is a god? 2) What evidence, besides anecdotal, can you bring towards this claim? 3) Do you have a solid grounding in information theory and how it pertains to the development of complexity? 4) You assert that Islam first requires that one believes in god and then one is to seek out the religion that best exemplifies such a belief. Q: Are/Were your parents Muslim? 5) How did you get so lucky to be born into the correct religion?

[@carryall69]

@HolyRevelation about abiogenesis. it's more about rna-world, hyperbolism and stuff. not that i get it, but i think the idea is, like ribosomes functioning both as information carrier as well as executive enzymes. dna-level would be a later progression.