Game Design Rebrands - New Core Mechanics vs. Fan Expectations ~ Design Doc

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Congratulations! You've just been put in charge of a long-running game series! But, oh no, it looks like your fans aren't as into the games as they used to be. What do you do? Maybe it's time for a reboot. Or work in some new game mechanics. That should get people interested, right? Maybe.
Fans are fickle, and not matching their expectations can be just as disastrous for a series. Let's talk about 3 games - 2 that messed around with the game's core mechanics and botched it, and one that did it almost perfectly, and learn what it takes to meet fan expectations.
Featuring:
Banjo-Kazooie Nuts and Bolts
Brutal Legend
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
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Design Doc on Twitter: / warbot400
#banjokazooie #breathofthewild #brutallegend

[@glitchygear9453]

Don't copy a series' trappings while rejecting its foundations. Copy the foundations whilst building new trappings.

[@aSHTEBALA]

What.

[@mariokarter13]

Pro-Tip: If you're gonna make a quirky spinoff, while the series in question has been on a bit of a hiatus, announce it in conjunction with a game fans actually want. Just imagine how much more accepting people would've been of Federation Force if it was announced with the teaser for Prime 4.

[@Dracomut]

Unless of course you have new foundations that are objectively better, then bury those old foundations six feet under

[@hiiambarney4489]

@@mariokarter13 Please... Don't mention this... Amalgamation of a title... Ever again... You are breaking my previously Primed Heart that was Fused with Echoes of a returning Samus. To not lose it's core identity and become an other Metroid, but Corrupting the Super Enticing Elements of the series and take it to a fourth Dimension. Puns intended.

[@harrylane4]

@@mariokarter13 and like how diablo mobile has turned out to be unexpectedly good but will never be accepted by the community because you guys don't have phones

[@sofer2230]

"It was scrapped over worries that it would look too much like a simple graphical update of the older games." Boy, the gaming industry sure changed since then, huh?

[@marcgoncalis9802]

I think it's a bit gullible to think Rareware just wanted to avoid a rehash. I wish it was enough with that, but even back then it is gaming industry we are talking about. I think Rareware just wanted to rebel against those expectations, just like with Conker. They just wanted to do something else to stablish their own path outside of Nintendo. Besides a lot of the staff was new by that time.

[@michaelmongelluzzo6953]

Yeah it's pretty ironic that everyone wants a remake now

[@chuganoga1908]

Lol foreal hey say what y’all want but at least nuts and boots tried to be original

[@scp5358]

The game industry has only supplied consumers with what they demand. Business can only provide what people will buy.

[@jeremyabbott4537]

I think Rare was still salty about the lukewarm reception that Grabbed by the Ghoulies got (and probably Kameo, IDK when that came out though)

[@svenbtb]

I know you didn't really have time to get into it, but Persona 3 is a really interesting example. Since the og Persona was like you said in the video, a clearly marked sub-series that tried something different, and then when Persona 3 came out it - was itself ALSO tweaked and changed from the earlier Persona games while keeping some of that same core gameplay.

[@SpecterVonBaren]

I want open world dungeons in Breath of the Wild 2. I want them to make places like Hyrule Castle, give us dungeons that are huge and sprawling like a mini open world. Give us special items from these dungeons like before but make it so most of the dungeon can be traversed with what you enter it with and the item allows you to fight the boss and find secrets and attempt the difficult challenges. Give us hints of lore in these dungeons with environmental story telling, maybe a room like Willy's room from The Goonies where you have a bunch of dead people around a table with treasure, making you wonder what happened but also give us actual writing in places that give us some more concrete lore. That's the marrying of old and new I'd love to see from the next game.

[@DesignDoc]

I want them to make dungeons like BoTW's Hyrule Castle with just a little bit more structure that forces you to explore every nook and cranny instead of just being able to easily skip everything and jump right to the boss with Zora Armor/Revali's Gale. Maybe something similar to the terminals in the Divine Beasts.

[@SpecterVonBaren]

@@DesignDoc I keep thinking of things like the library in Hyrule Castle from BotW or the main hub area of the Ancient Cistern from SS. The secret in the library was a lot of fun to discover and the way the Ancient Cistern's main area is laid out is the basis of what I'd like to see from dungeons in BotW's world.

[@Ellie_deMayo]

Make Zelda Dark Souls....

[@nicol4578]

This. BoTW is great but there are a few things that it could learn from its predecessors.. I'd love to see dungeons as big and explorative as Hyrule Castle was, but with different aesthetic. In BoTW, the 4 divine beasts dungeons are very similar, I'd personally like to explore places like the Forest Temple or the Ancient Cistern, but with the hugeness and exploration that BoTW's Hyrule Castle and BoTW itself have. The same goes for the bosses, they look similar (though fun to fight imo). Some new items/runes would be great too, and somehow the Hookshot must make a return. Underwater exploration would also be amazing. And one huge thing BoTW 2 has to make better than its prequel is the bestiary, Zelda always had a lot of different types of enemies in its games, and BoTW lacks some of the most famous ones such as Iron Knuckles, Wallmasters, Gibdos and Poes, they should definitely improve upon that.

[@saxor96]

This reminds me of the era where a lot of platform games shifted to sandbox-style games in their next installment. At least Sly Cooper maintains its core controls and setting.

[@Lorddonut-pu8ig]

And Kirby although each game has a new gimmick

[@aaronokemaysim7310]

Tip: if you are gonna make a long running game series a new open-world-based entry, make it retains what made the old games identifiable. Breath of the Wild was a very successful game because it worked as an open-world game, and kept what made the older entries iconic, mainly, the exploration and adventure experience. Also on the reply above me, I wouldn’t mind an open-world Kirby game. Kirby games have a thing of taking risks with every new entries, or it just adds a new gimmick, like first reply said. An open-world Kirby game would be interesting, kinda like Air-ride.

[@crocsoncrocsman6273]

Open world Sonic game with momentum based gameplay, now that could be good

[@eiriseven]

10:22 this is the exact opposite of what Nintendo did with Federation Force, they made statements like "This is a real Metroid game" "the franchise needs to change in order to have a future" "we got nothing like the games they wanted right now, lets be happy for what we have". Even if the game had been good (worst metacritic score in the entire franchise) with marketing like that there was no chance of success.

[@BOFH_]

Honestly, if they had announced and released Samus Returns before Federation Force, then FF might have had a much better reception. "Hey, we know you guys want a new 3D Metroid game. Here's something to tide you over until we have more to announce." The way Nintendo did things instead was just spitting in the eye of the franchise's fans. "Yeah, we missed your favorite franchise's 25th anniversary. Here's a game nobody asked for and nobody wanted with clunky mechanics. Also, it is entirely reliant on people still playing it longer than one month after release instead of throwing it in the trash once they realize how bad it is. Be grateful we are giving you anything at all."

[@Katsuhono]

Wow, I actually never knew Brutal Legends turned RTS halfway through

[@mikebarnes7441]

Not even halfway. It was quite surprising though nonetheless

[@meaninglez100]

Nuts and Bolts mocking the collect-a-thon mechanics as archaic in the first 5 minutes did nothing to help its first impressions. Seemed extremely tone deaf

[@wonderguardstalker]

A few years too early on that take. It was fuckin hilarious for all the wrong reasons

[@ItsThatKidGreg]

@@wonderguardstalker please elaborate. I'm incredibly curious

[@Dracomut]

In all honesty that's more gamers being overly sensitive

[@meaninglez100]

@@Dracomut Overly sensitive or not, it wasn't exactly thoughtful timing on Rare's part. If you're making a property revival for an established fanbase, you might want to keep in mind why they enjoyed that series in the first place. They're the ones most invested in the property and most likely to actually buy the game

[@Dracomut]

@meaninglez100 Though if they are willing to drop the game after one joke, they probably are the fans best ignored

[@nanazsan7536]

I think nuts & bolts would've done better if we got banjo threeie first, with banjo in smash and all I still have hope

[@demi-fiendoftime3825]

z0om 02 exactly it's a fun spin off but not a new main Banjo Kazooie game

[@The_Jovian]

Nuts & bolts would've done better if it wasn't called banjo and kazooie

[@mariokarter13]

It's the second time (I can think of) that Rare had a solid game on their hands made worse by forcing it into a franchise it had no business being in. Star Fox Adventures isn't a bad game, but why Star Fox? Nuts & Bolts could've been a cool idea, but why Banjo?

[@foxymetroid]

@@mariokarter13 I think Nintendo made them add Starfox characters so that it had to be on the Gamecube.

[@jjrambles683]

@@mariokarter13 yeah, star fox adventures was originally planned as an N64 game called dinosaur planet but was retooled to feature StarFox after feedback from Nintendo

[@LayerMM12P]

Just saw this in my recommended feed and I'm grinning like an idiot because this is literally my bachelors thesis and we come to very similar conclusions. In my thesis I end up developing a 4 step guide to examining your own game series to find out the public reception to each element within, so that devs can make smart decisions about how to innovate their series further: Satisfy series core (brand core, essentially. I call it series core cause of the focus on product content) and delight with a unique game core (core elements of the individual game) and shell (attractive elements).

[@samsibbens8164]

I bet this could be used if you want to make a "spiritual sequel" to a game you have no rights over? I don't know if/when you'd share your thesis publicly but I'd be interested in giving it a read, I'm a dev

[@LayerMM12P]

The target of the thesis was moreso how developers of a franchise can continue innovating a series without alienating fans, but I suppose the stuff I suggest also follows the procedure how someone outside of the development team may try to find out what core elements users expect from a specific game series. Now that I have confirmation that I passed with the thesis, I've got no problem with sharing it :p Here you go: emral.github.io/ba.pdf

[@kevingriffith6011]

A couple of other less obvious examples (overlooking obvious things like jumping on the 3D / open world bandwagon): Black and White 1 and 2 (A more organic, system driven god game vs a more controlled strategy game), Dead Space (The dreaded shift to setpiece action), Titanfall 1 and 2 (Exclusively online to one of the best single-player shooter experiences of it's generation), Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War (Each installment of the franchise shakes the whole formula up, which is cool... when it works)... I think change like this is healthy for a franchise, but can absolutely be a scary prospect.

[@patchpen5613]

Of course the first music you used was from Super Paper Mario, the quintessential controversial example of your main points. Anyway, a lot of people will argue that these games are good, and that expectations merely dirtied their experience. You do a good job of pointing out that games have to be designed around the fact people have expectations, and that failure to do that is indeed the mark of a job done poorly.

[@andysabur4966]

I was kinda hoping he'd mention something like Fallout 4/3/New Vegas. Those 3 games are totally different than the first two right? 4 was even(I've seen some) said to be "a good action game, but not a Fallout game". But then maybe that topic is more about developers streamlining a game to be...accessible(?)

[@vitt0128]

Patchpen No, it was from Paper Mario The Thousand-Year Door title screen not Super Paper Mario

[@patchpen5613]

@@vitt0128 Gah, you're right. I always get that one confused because TTYD and SPM have such different styles, but that one track always sounded more like SPM's style.

[@windturbine6796]

I still think that SPM is a great game by itself, but isn't a good Paper Mario game. #remasterthousandyeardoor

[@revolvingworld2676]

Andy Sabur I see that as a Fire Emblem Awakening situation. You cant disappoint fans if you had no fans in the first place, so you might as well take a risk and go out with a bang.

[@loganfedders508]

I'm a bit disappointed that persona 3 features so prominently in this videos visuals, but there's basically no mention of how it rebranded the persona series

[@DesignDoc]

Maybe in the future ;).

[@matteste]

@@DesignDoc People just don't give the older games enough credit, especially 2. Especially given how they end up getting ignored these days.

[@jamesoneill8920]

@@matteste To be fair, Atlus haven't done a fantastic job of making the older games accessible to people who started out on the newer games. There's only really the PSP versions and they skipped out on localising one of the Persona 2 games. If they gave them all remasters for the current generation they'd probably get a lot more attention.

[@matteste]

@@jamesoneill8920 Exactly.

[@intensellylit4100]

And the higher edge levels.

[@LackingSaint]

how dare you tease me with a jak 2 mechanical breakdown fakeout!!

[@DesignDoc]

*Shrug*

[@9Godslayer]

I thought he was going to talk about Chrono Cross. I feel a little cheated.

[@sirdragonmoon7092]

Reminds me to when santa monica killed twisted metal. They never captured either of the two directions that were memorable and liked from either twisted metal back or twisted metal 2 and twisted metal head on.

[@TheSinDeath]

I don't disagree with the the idea that Breath of the Wild came back to the roots of what the series has been about with new game mechanics that create a good core gameplay loop and encourage creative solutions to puzzles/exploration, but I do think it is understated how much dungeon design has mattered to the series as time has gone on and I think Breath of the Wild took an unnecessary step away from dungeon design. The Divine Beasts are nice and all, but they pale in comparison to previous games' dungeon designs. I like other new elements of BoTW, but I worry that people mistakenly point to in-depth dungeon design as a "flaw" in the "Zelda formula", rather than one of the series' greatest expressions of its core ideas (adventure and exploration in a fantastical world). Also, with regard to something said in the Brutal Legend segment, I wish publishers would recognize that there is a market for RTS games.

[@DensetsuVII]

Lovely work as always man, (though I feel like the Brutal Legend example kind of stretches the premise), but I really think this topic needs more discussion too. I think there's great insight to be had in asking how different sequels and spinoffs fared in changing core mechanics and why. Persona 3 in particular integrating dating-sim mechanics, and did alienate old-school SMT fans. But it's viewed successfully because it drew in more people than it lost. There are less and less of these people now, but there used to be quite the contingent who insisted that Persona was ruining SMT and identified as old school fans. You also identify Ace Combat Assault Horizon, which tries to do the same by simplifying its combat and adding a more generic story, and this had a sort of middling effect, alienating fans and attracting more attention than normal, but only marginally, to the point where no one talks about it and Bamco won't even release its soundtrack. And yet you can't not change - the recent Paradox game Imperator Rome received tremendous backlash for what was seen as a rehash of mechanics from older games. I think there are more videos to be made on this topic investigating where the balance is found between new mechanics and old, and how series evolve without losing their fanbase. Very much hope you'll be talking about that in the future!

[@AkuTenshiiZero]

As much as I did enjoy Breath of the Wild, and I look forward to it's sequel, I still sincerely hope that the original style of Zelda games is not gone for good. I would like to see the massive, complex dungeons come back, the Beasts were just not enough for me.

[@DesignDoc]

While I'm not chomping at the bit for them like some people, they should bring back more structured dungeons in the future instead of the puzzle box approach. I also hope there are fewer shrines overall but are more substantial in size and have more visual variety. I would like to see more shrines like the "Trial of Power" where it's this nice mini gauntlet with a healthy variety of obstacles and puzzles.

[@marcusrauch4223]

Thank the goddesses I‘m not the only one.

[@seanrea550]

@@marcusrauch4223 the dungeons and dungeon unlocks are not a part of the trappings but a part of core its self in my mind. The question becomes at what point does a trapping become a core element. Each dungeon acts as a test for each new piece of gear and the time to the next dungeon gives you time to learn it. The breaking weapons are a major issue for me though especially on the point where there is no damage tracking to the weapons.

[@tsunderecat413]

i think this is the first time i've ever heard someone say that nuts & bolts wasn't hot garbage. no one ever really talks about it (i've never played it personally, either), but the few who did essentially claimed it was hot garbage or mostly talked about the glitches and not the actual game. so it's nice to see someone give a different perspective on the game.

[@SimioCoco]

I love it, and also played the original banjo kazooie on the N64 years ago when I was a kid

[@syweb2]

It has the Federation Force problem of bad timing and worse marketing - though I guess you could say that Federation Force had the Nuts & Bolts problem, given when they released in relation to each other.

[@kienesel7]

Ain’t nothing forgettable about Brutal Legend for me, love that game to death, played the online a bunch back in the day.

[@svenbtb]

Yeah I feel like "forgetable flop" isn't really fair. It may not have had good marketing but the game has a decent sized fanbase - it's more of a Cult game, which is fitting given the theme haha

I loved it, but unfortunately it definitely feels like a Frankensteinian hybrid. If a sequel ever comes out, it should either be exclusively an RTS (multiple heroes per faction but no directly controllable hero unit, one campaign per side, some more complexity to the base building) or exclusively a heavy metal Zelda / GTA (multiple controllable characters with different stats and abilities, but no RTS).

[@coyraig8332]

@ I still see potential in the fusion, the developers just didn't fuse them as well as they could have. For all we know they've been doing just that for the past 10 years

[@staticparsley6262]

Same here, thought it was pretty solid and just thoroughly enjoyed it.

[@EbonMaster]

I loved it till the RTS stuff came up. It was like the opposite of the style of game I signed up for and it felt like they really *really* shouldnt have tried to merge the two styles as it kist *killed* the flow of the game to me. That being said I did really like the world and dialogue and still quote JB's "DECAPITATIOOOOON" line to this day lol.

[@ZoepX]

Isn't it kind of funny that Nuts & Bolts made fun of the old formula, tried something different and failed yet Yooka Laylee tried the old formula and also somewhat failed because it was... all the things that N&B made fun off? lol

[@anacreon212]

Yea but then we got a hat in time which took the fundamentals of a retro 3d plantformer and added its own quirkiness and silliness that made it feel more like a banjo-kazooie game than yooka-laylee. the problem yooka-laylee had was that each of the worlds were large to the point that they kind of felt empty.

[@jjopification]

Unity Alpha Yooka-Laylee mostly missed work on the details like unique characters & stories in each world. It didn’t feel organic because of all the copy pasted enemies & npcs. It also lacked simple & understandable level layouts

[@jeremyabbott4537]

I bet if Yooka Laylee didn't focus so much on the whole "expand the world" aspect and instead made moderate sized densely packed worlds from the get go, as well as adding a few more worlds, it would have been much better. I feel like they saw Banjo Tooie and just did what that game did but even larger, including magnifying all its flaws.

[@Christopher-md7tf]

Yeah, they didn't learn from any of their past mistakes with B-T and DK64.

[@LeoTamachi]

I love this channel so much. Every upload is a joy in my heart

[@msdrakegx]

I think this whole video can be summed up by saying that player expectations can have an effect on the game experience. BoTW is actually a more divisive game then people think. There's a sizeable portion of Zelda fandom that didn't like or wasn't interested in playing the game. What it did better then Banjo was that it was very clear from the beginning that it would be focusing more on exploration. The only people who bought BoTW that were disapointed were people who expected dungeons to be a bigger (and more interesting) part of the game. Dungeons are the core of Zelda to many players after all.

[@rainbowworld1292]

Dungeons in the Zelda series were a very big deal. It added a new layer of exploration, worldbuilding, and progression. Completing dungeons, especially big ones, felt rewarding. While dungeons suffered from issues (mostly linearity and being to easy), they were not necessarly incompatible with BotW mechanics. Dungeons with the BotW formula would've been great, and would have make the game feel like a "real zelda game", a feel some fans of the series lacked. BotW still great game tho.

[@rainbowworld1292]

also bring the hookshot back pls thks

[@GraemeGames]

Great idea for a video! Nice work with the Yooka-Kickstart joke insert ;) Brutal Legend was unfortunate. The action adventure, with crazy metal themes, a great soundtrack, and Jack Black voicing it should have been an instant classic! The story is solid, and the game is short enough to still give a chance. But it started to drag on at the end playing through the clunky RTS elements. Your argument on game cores vs superficial elements is great! And succinctly gets at why I really hate Nuts and Bolts. There is a lot of potential to explore this video concept further. A series like Diablo could be an interesting case study. It was a very different team that made the 3rd game. And while the game eventually became better than it was at it's release, it still lost a lot of what people loved from the first 2 games

[@DesignDoc]

Yeah, we've got a list of a couple dozen other games we could fit in here. It could easily turn into a series.

[@lugbzurg8987]

@@DesignDoc Please do that. There's so much more that outta be covered! Sly Cooper, Pac-Man World (and Ghostly Adventures), Metal Gear (Rising, V, and Survive), Rayman, Doom, Quake, Darksiders, Earth Defense Force (Insect Armageddon in particular), Jak and Daxter, Dead Space, Plants vs. Zombies, Ratchet & Clank (going from satire from 2002-2005, Space Opera Epic from 2007-2009, and whatever the heck its turned into since then), and heck Sonic the Hedgehog has this whole thing down worse than almost any series out there with a severe identity crisis. You can barely even lay down what the *setting* is!

[@MrJumanj1]

Oh the old DMC reboot failure ... nice example

[@titanscar2183]

The DMC reboot was fucking amazing aside from the characters. That was its only failure imo. In fact i think ot has the best combat out of the entire series, though i havent played 5 yet

[@henrybuehler1127]

@@titanscar2183 4 and 5 are better even if 4 has bad level design

[@sanfransiscon]

It's strange, the DMC reboot has some of the best combat mechanics (not a fan of the color-coded enemies though) and as the story concludes the characters do become more similar to the way fans remember them. But the writing for most of it wasn't strong enough, so instead of fans seeing the new Dante for who he would become, he seemed like an impossibly different character.

[@malcovich_games]

DmC's Vergil was so bad. There's really no reason for him to suddenly be a villain... except just so the hero can have a rival to fight. And besides, up until that point, he's just the brains of the rebellion that the main character was in, so it seems like an ass pull to make him suddenly have all these powers. ---- I feel like DmC might have been a success if it were a new IP, free from "expectations" of fans... if it played like Devil May Cry but had different characters and mythology.

[@DesignDoc]

Vergil's heelturn in DmC should've been what a sequel centered around. But yeah, DmC is a good character action game with the wrong name.

[@ZellyTheFangirl]

The more I watch these vids the more pleasant and relaxing that opening music gets.

[@jielyantohendric5568]

I missed you Doc, now you're here, great content as always!

[@scrustle]

Brutal Legend makes me sad. It's a great love letter to heavy metal. It's fantastic as that. But it's such a confused and unsatisfying game. And even though I don't like the RTS bits at all, the idea of a heavy metal stage show as an army fighting a battle is a really neat concept.

[@josedeleon1923]

I've watched the begining of the game and the soundtrack and gameplay looks really good but the part that you mentioned puts me aside from playing it. Would you recomended giving it a try?

[@chartabona]

7:22 Vivendi, at that point the parent company of Blizzard Entertainment, makers of Starcraft and Warcraft, decided that the RTS genre was too niche. Part of me wonders if this is why Blizzard missed the boat on the MOBA, despite the massive popularity DotA in Warcraft 3. They were sitting on a gold mine, but Heroes of the Storm didn't launch until 2015.

[@josedeleon1923]

You should talk more in detail about the other games you showed. There are so much more examples and this is a great series idea.

[@AlemoBavir]

Botw was a great new experience but because of that, it make some fans and myself want the old Zelda elements back. Combine the old with the new, I hope Botw 2 does this.

[@pedroscoponi4905]

I still hope we get some good entries to zelda that follow the old formula. BotW makes me glad that they can successfully do something different, though

[@abaque24]

I hope grezzo gets to make their own new Zelda game after links awakening. That's their 4th Zelda game. XP

[@N12015]

@@abaque24 Funnily enough, before that they released the arguably WORST Zelda game in Triforce Heroes.

[@abaque24]

@@N12015 i dunno, i have plenty of fun with it. in multiplayer of course.

[@Cman04092]

I like trails approach. There are 7 elements, 4 mains and 3 higher elements. The 4 main are fire, water, air, and earth. The higher elements are space, time, and mirage. Every enemy has their own unique balance of resistance/weakness of each element. 0 is total resist, 100 is normal, 200 is double damage. The higher 3 are only available in certain place, where the higher elements are active, usually places with lots of power in the air and sacred places, and they operate kn the same 0-200 scale. Its really cool cause each element also has a story relevance, although we are 10 games deep and only hit 4 of them so far. This is a long long series just to forwarn you, lol.

[@darktitan3025]

When you talked about Brutal Legend I was reminded of another game that was misled by marketing - STRAFE (not to be confused with Strife: Quest for the Sigil). All the promotional material showed the game as an oldschool FPS from the 90s, but when it released a lot of people weren't happy that the game was basically a roguelite FPS.

[@belegarsson2020]

A pretty timely video for Yakuza 7 at the moment.

[@DesignDoc]

Crap I forgot to quick address that in the video. That change is nuts but I think it can work since that series is already an rpg. Just now it’s going from action to turn-based which you almost never see. It’s usually the other way around.

[@Exel3nce]

but not in a negative way because we already have enough of action bralwer gameplay

[@that2amvagueexistentialdread]

That Paper Mario track in the beginning is still one of my favorite vg tracks of all time ❤️

[@SirCorvid]

10:53 "But relying on spin-off series doesn't do much for a mainline series that could use a renovation." Not going to lie, I expected to see some Pokémon footage in the background there. :P

[@sanfransiscon]

I think Pokemon has some of the strongest spinoff titles, like Mystery Dungeon and Ranger. Would love to see those get a little more spotlight.

[@SirCorvid]

SonOfMael V3: Legend of the Aramouto I'll let you know that I love the PMD series - I probably like it more than the main series! I'm really sad that Spike do not want to continue the series, but I'm okay with that. I'd rather not see a half-hearted attempt at a sequel, and especially at a remaster. The soundtracks are too good to mess up. I've only played Ranger 3 and I liked it quite a bit, but now that the 3DS is dead, how would a new Ranger game even work? No way I could draw circles quickly with motion controls, my wrist would ache after 5 minutes. Neither of these spinoffs solve the problem that Pokémon is way overdue for a renovation. But the fanbase doesn't really know what it wants, other than no cuts. Gen 5 took some risks and the fans talked trash about it (until recently), and this led to the stale Gen 6 that is generally considered mediocre. I've always liked Gen 5 before it was cool to do so, and would love to see another generation as bold as it was.

[@theutubepower1243]

Yeah the spinoffs are just better than the main series right now imo

[@daizbid]

Zelda and the 3D Mario games have always done well at staying new and fresh, I think.

[@Tyrranis]

As someone who played Banjo Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts but not the other games in the series, I will say that it was a good game, but I can understand why people got pissed off at the games' new mechanics. Especially as I'd been through a similar situation myself with Crash Bandicoot: Twinsanity. Also, I wasn't expecting to see Ace Combat: Assault Horizon in the intro montage, so that was a nice surprise. I can understand why it was there, though. I am kind of surprised that there was no mention of Command & Conquer: Renegade, though. One of the first instances I can remember of an established franchise going in a completely new direction gameplay-wise, and one of the better received ones at that.

[@DesignDoc]

I'm not very familiar with Command and Conquer. Wasn't aware that that series ever had a major change.

[@Tyrranis]

@@DesignDoc Command & Conquer was a RTS franchise, and prior to Renegade had solely been an RTS, with 4 well-received installments (not including console ports or expansion packs) Then they released Renegade, which was a First Person Shooter set in the C&C universe. Funny thing is, it's not even the first time they mixed up the C&C formula. They also released Sole Survivor, a short-lived online-focused RTS Battle Royale game in 1997. That one was a total flop.

[@andrewsprojectsinnovations6352]

12:31 What else? What other franchise has had a more successful rebrand? Not that the Legend of Zelda needed it by any stretch, but boy did it update the thriving and well-loved series into the modern age! Nintendo perfectly nailed the blend between old and new, and sure it has a few rough edges (cough dungeons cough) but it still feels very much like a Zelda game, and bringing the series back to its roots was a perfect decision with current hardware finally being capable of the truly seamless open-world experience the original tried to convey within its 8-bit limits. I would just like to add one additional thing the Zelda rebrand needed to adhere to that most other games don't: the series lore. Sure the timeline is often ridiculed as a convoluted mess, but it's still coherent enough to have become a core aspect of the series. Like the previous games in the series, BotW handles this brilliantly, with references and callbacks to previous installments, new expansions of its own, and subtle details for the "theorist community."

[@MrPedrogiorgi]

The problem with Zelda is that different parts of the fanbase expect different things from the games. A part of the fanbase loves the exploration aspects and free form puzzle-solving, and actually feel that the Zelda core is this non linear aproach that was lacking from newer games. But fans of the series that started with the 3d games have a different view of what Zelda actually is: varied dungeons, getting items to solve puzzles, quirky characters, different enemies, a more focused and memorable story, with memorable and epic moments etc. With BotW, I would argue that they focused on trying to please just the first group while alienating the second. So, for the second group, the game doesnt feel like Zelda at all. I am part of this side of the fanbase and while I can see all the positives of BotW, it just doesnt feel like Zelda while I am playing it That is why I hope that with BotW 2 they try to merge the two "sides" of Zelda design: keep the open world, the physics based puzzles, and the exploration aspect while still giving us dungeons, unique items and a compelling storyline

[@ZekeFreek]

I feel similarly. BotW is just too open, it's too much freedom. It makes the game feel unfocused, like I have to come up with a direction myself and I just don't want to do that here. I don't want to be entirely railroaded, but having some structure to the adventure is a good thing. It helps keep a pace, gives me fulfilling goals, and lets a more complex story be told (in theory anyway, Zelda stories are rarely that complicated, but the point is that they could be). I'm more excited for the Link's Awakening remake and possible ports of Wind Waker HD and Twilight Princess HD than I am BotW 2. Because those games will give me a polished adventure experience and not just throw me into a sandbox and go "find all the stuffs, game's over whenever you've had enough". That's not as satisfying, that's not why I like Zelda.

[@DeathBringerBecky]

THANK YOU! I feel like yours is one of the few comments that I have read where my opinion is understood. You said that so well, and I appreciate you.

[@Vgy1592]

I absolutely loved BotW, and all it did. But I loved it in a way I love spin-off games. It captured a style of gameplay that I also enjoy, but not really the gameplay I fell for the Zelda series for. For me, the big thing was always exploring dungeons, and being excited to see what item the dungeon would have, being tested with that item against the bosses, and then how I could expand my exploration in the rest of the world with that item... Though I guess I can still get plenty of that out of Metroidvanias. Still. BotW felt great, but it didn't necessarily feel *Zelda.*

[@luisoncpp]

It's hard to find an old and long running franchise where all the fans want the same thing, in Zelda is not that bad(BOW still have a lot of puzzles in the shrines and it had some dungeon-like areas). The one where I feel that is worse is in Final Fantasy, Sonic and The Elder Scrolls, but even in not-controversial ones it's possible to find contradicting positions within the fan-base. For example, in Megaman some people prefer classic megaman, others the X series, or even the Megaman Legends series, some of them want more story and some of them want less story.

[@Epsilonsama]

BotW was a massive hit and sold gangbusters and is considered one of the best games of all time. It means the Ocarina/LttP clones were not the right way to go and moving forward the game will focus on it's core which is exploration and adventure.

[@squeallymaniac]

Wow, I played only part of Brutal Legend so far, I wouldn't have guessed it would become an RTS

[@aortaplatinum]

I'd love to see you talk about a similar idea, but of two opposing examples in the same series, a game that long time fans didn't want at all but executives thought would appeal to newcomers and it turned out terrible, and a game that everyone wanted since forever but since it was an older formula, higher ups kept saying no until it eventually got made and released and everyone loved it. The most obvious example would be Sonic BOOM: Rise of Lyric VS Sonic Mania, but that's just my ideal.

[@Rainbowmon]

...That song used at the beginning of the Brutal Legend section... OF ALL THE SONGS, WHY ONE FROM THE SPONGEBOB SQUAREPANTS MOVIE GAME?!

[@voldlifilm]

I got Brutal Legends based on the demo that made it look like a 3d adventure game. I was really surprised when it turned into an RTS.

[@HasekuraIsuna]

With Homeworld 3 announced just the other day, and the devs talking about "expanding" the game's scope I really hope they watch this video.

[@waluigiisthebest2802]

You can either: Make a good rebranding, that changes things up yet keeps the things people loved from the older games Make a bad rebranding, that doesn’t know what it wants to be Or just put out the same game over and over with a new coat of paint, maybe with a new gimmick or something

[@cyanide167]

That last one just described EA Sports and the New Super Mario series

[@BlueLightningSky]

As a fan of Final Fantasy, I've learnt to accept that core mechanics are not really that important and in some ways are a barrier to progress. Fans expect certain things for sure, but that means they expect also the problems with the series and are willing to forgive it simply because of how long they've been playing the series. Look at random encounters for example, they are inherently a terrible idea only made to pad the game out, it interrupts the flow of exploration for casuals and for hardcore players it is a nightmare just to get a specific monster to spawn so that you can get a rare item from it. It is such a bad idea that modern JRPGs that do this include built in options to tone down the amount and even rereleases of PS1 FFs have cheats to turn them off. Yet they were still doing this in FFX. Chrono Trigger was already out, before FFVII mind you, and the SaGa series were working on compromises and at every point in time we've had other JRPGs that have had on screen enemies. And sure it's easy to say now that they we're never a core part of FF so it was their mistake but think about how difficult it would have been for them to come to that conclusion. FFVII was a juggernaut and it took them till XII to realize it was a bad idea. Everyone was so convinced that it was a core mechanic and arguably it was until they decided it wasn't in XII that people accepted the problems that came with it rather than find replacements, solutions or compromises.

[@icecreamget]

bro Brutal Legend was my shit. sick boss fights, awesome music, fantastic world. I don't really like RTS games, but Brutal legend's RTS was simple enough, and put underneath so much action adventure gameplay, that I enjoyed the random RTS battles.

[@horizon92lee]

I hope more classics take a nod from dragon quest 11, still has a throwback feel but has a fresh design and gameplay

[@abaque24]

I am still upset about the 3ds version not coming here *A*

[@gabrielsyme5570]

I was actually on board with the Brutal Legend RTS stuff, even though it came as a surprise, right up until the second major enemy army showed up. Everything the game had just spent hours tutorializing about how units work went out the window. For example, you've got big guys whose purpose is supposed to be that they're strong against vehicles. I threw six of them at a new enemy unit that was a car with a face on it, and all six died while the car kept going. At that point the only viable strategy became to rush the enemy base with weak units before they could build up their forces, which effectively sapped all the enjoyment out of the big battles.

[@dieterroos4371]

I have never played any Banjo game, but it intrigues me ... so, I would definitely check out a Crash-style remake for it.

[@TwilightYonder720]

Part of me was expecting Pokemon or Paper Mario to be mentioned I remember when Brutal Legend came out and never heard anything from it since, didn't know about the RTS thing that's weird

[@BigFearedBalloon]

I wasn't expecting it but it would be an interesting topic to cover.

[@TwilightYonder720]

Pokemon because of the intro about fan expectations being or not being met and his line "no one celebrates a rehash" which is a problem Pokemon is having atm.

[@BigFearedBalloon]

Basically tons of missing features like Battle Frontier, Pokémon disappearing from games these days (Let's Go/Sword and Shield), rebattling Gym Leaders etc. Just for a few examples.

[@zjzr08]

@@BigFearedBalloon It's more about diminishing gameplay rather than changing it up -- difference between turning Coke to Diet Coke or Coke to Pepsi.

[@DOSRetroGamer]

Just recently finished Brütal Legend. While the gameplay was and is not the best on the market, the theme, soundtrack,humor, performances and overall style are so outstanding and hold up today that it is still an amazing game. Highly recommended to get on steam.

[@somedude6351]

i just wanna say, i really love banjo kazooie nuts and bolts. I havent played any other banjo kazooie games so i just judge it based on the game itself and i thought it was super fun

[@benedict6962]

I'm surprised you didn't compare Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy, seeing how they tackle both relative extremes from the same company.

[@joystrawberry6228]

I knew he was going to talk about botw! I heard the music and I was like yessss

[@EbonMaster]

I would say that Sonic is a game that needs to learn from this but does Sonic even have a fundamental core anymore? It seems like its been yanked around an mutilated so much that it doesnt even have an identity at this point.

[@TheWrathAbove]

Sonic Mania is a pretty good example of a game that understands the fundamentals design of Sonic games.

[@theutubepower1243]

I think they need to use a well received gameplay style and stick with it ( and also make sure the game they’re making is good too )

[@RigalicReign]

The hilarious thing as while I do not like RTS games I did heavily enjoy brutal legends just because of theworld that it put me in and I was just so absorbed into it that I didn't give a damn that I'm horrible at strategy games. Meanwhile you have something like banjo which as someone who played the N64 games through a proxy, IE my best friend's house whenever I got to go over because I was poor, I developed an extreme love for the series and felt really betrayed. Even though I was actually really good at racing games. I never gave nuts and bolts a fair shake. It took watching a let's player play through it to make me realize that it's actually a decent game.

[@RigalicReign]

On that note I have to say breath of the wild is actually my least favorite Zelda game and I played Zelda 2. the problem was while I was enjoying my time in breath of the wild by the time I finally got around to fighting Ganon somewhere around a hundred hours I'm just exploring, I just stopped playing. I remember getting to the second phase of the final boss fight and shutting off my Wii u and going to work. I never even touched it after that and have really no desire to go back and do it. I have no idea why I felt such malaise going into that final fight. even to this day back when I first got the game I still have no desire to go and replay it or the DLC. I'm even considering skipping over the sequelbecause I just don't find any interest in this series. I mean I still enjoy the theories in the possibilities of the timeline but realistically this is the worst version of Zelda for me. Contrast with about 12 play 3 hours of wind waker and literally only one singular completed playthrough of twilight princess. I'm the kind of person who plays legend of Zelda but I'm always an outlier in the community. I have no idea why I'm so different from everyone else, but I honestly never enjoyed a link to the past, or orcarina of time, or twilight princess.

[@kaja3932]

Bloons is another great example of reboots working in your favor, the tower defense everyone knows was originally a spinoff from, if I remember correctly, a minigame series. The tower defense spinoff happened, became a juggernaut of its genre, and completely took control of the franchise's trajectory.

[@The_One_In_Black]

Have you done a video like this that dived deep into the complications of the jump to 3D? That seems to be the #1 time when previous mechanics were no longer acceptable, and designers were routinely forced to completely reinvent 10-year old franchises.

[@Lugmillord]

Banjo-Tooie is to this day my favorite game. Still, I also really love Nuts&Bolts, because it IS a good game. But I absolutely understand that many people consider it to different. On the other hand, Mario Party 9 & 10 are both too different and not good. Especially 10. That's just zero strategy, 100% luck. ...wait, Brütal Legends is an RTS? Da heck.

[@Yipper64]

Hmm so I wonder how Banjo could have come back. Or even like could now... Like the core is really more maps that are a set of interlocking paths with collectables throughout. It's like a museum. There's a path (uka layle didn't have really any paths on thier maps)

[@MattTheHuman9]

I was hoping you’d talk about Crash of The Titans when you showed Mind Over Mutant for a 2nd but I think the Banjo Kazooie breakdown can apply to Crash of The Titans. It was way too different in way too many aspects (you can’t even spin in the beginning) including gameplay compared to the rest of the series, coupled with the radical character design changes it’s not hard to see why people don’t like those games.

[@PsychadelicoDuck]

Huh. What are people's general impressions of Brutal Legend? Because I recall quite enjoying it. Granted, I was warned beforehand about the genre switch, and the number of RTSes I've played can be counted on one hand (and that's including the flash games), and I enjoyed the driving way more than either the combat or the strategy... but I liked building death blobs well enough, and the only complaint I really had about it was the missing third act. I didn't know it was such a controversial game.

[@chirimoya9997]

Great video man

[@mey7614]

Why am I crying from this, I guess it's just very nostalgic for me as I grew up playing both the zelda games and played brutal legend alot. I'm just that big nerd I guess

[@tapatiovidzz]

Like what they did with Ryu ga Gotoku 7....

[@felicia1646]

was looking for this comment! super excited for new protag and story but uh... gameplay no thanks

[@josephcross8464]

Sheeesh... So many people in the comments are salty that BOTW was used as a good example of a series rebooting itself. Now listen, the first Zelda game that I played was Link's Awakening, and then I grew up with Ocarina, Majora and most of the 3D games that solidified the so called "Zelda formula", but when BOTW came out I actually welcomed the change of pace, because I thought the series might have been getting a little stale at the time (and mind you, I loved SS, janky motion controls and all). Now I'll be the first to admit that the game's far from perfect, but instead of getting aprehensive like the most nostalgic fans do, I remain hopeful that the sequels might fix the problems that this new change in direction might have brought. And who knows maybe it'll bring back some of those things that these old-school fans missed so much, but if we give up on the series, just because we want to cling to the past and don't want to let it grow and evolve, we'll never know what we might be missing in the long run.

[@MrPrincePapa]

Is it really that surprising though? In a video where Nuts&Bolts is brought up as having failed to meet fan expectation, he praises BOTW, a game that has failed to meet half the fanbase's expectation. We could argue about whether or not that matters as long as the product sold well, but really, all I mean to say is if you were a fan of Zelda's stories and/or dungeons, BOTW is probably in a similar boat that Nuts&Bolts is for platforming fans.

[@josephcross8464]

@@MrPrincePapa Not really surprising, whenever something changes, some people are bound to get alienated, yet if sales are anything to go by, we can conclude that, as far as rebooting a series goes, Nintendo did the right call with Zelda and BOTW whereas Rare and Microsoft didn't with Banjo-Kazooie and Nuts and Bolts. Besides, BOTW didn't so much change the core principles of its series, like B-K:N&B did, but rather returned it to its very roots, and by doing so it created basis upon which developers can build up and expand, much like A Link to the Past did in its own time. And hey, if nothing else at the very least, thanks to its succes Zelda can still have one or more chances of redeeming itself in the eyes of the people who weren't quite thrilled with BOTW, whereas Banjo-Kazooie might never have that same chance again.

[@Zyyk0]

Is the music at 10:05 from hollow knight?? I remember this meoldy but cant pin point it

[@migueeeelet]

You could make another video of these on the Yakuza series. Yakuza 7 is being released in the west as "Yakuza: Like a Dragon" and, most importantly, it's a RPG rather than a brawler game. It's not a bad game, but it has definitely split the fanbase. Some want more brawler, others want something that "isn't the same we always got".

[@funkemonke8084]

I hear Hyrule Warriors music in the background. Nice choice.

[@xaldreca3403]

Part of why Nuts and Bolts failed is because, even if Banjoland things did appeal to the older audience, the first ten minutes were basically an attack on the original fan base

[@lugbzurg8987]

The whole game was basically a manipulative, abusive relationship on a disk.

[@LowePoly]

Does anyone know what the music is that starts at about 10 minutes in?

[@PSISomething]

I know you probably worked on this to tie in with Banjo being in smash and all, but I find it really funny you posted this right after the reveal of Yakuza 7/Yakuza Like A Dragon. They showed off a prototype of the RPG gameplay as an "april fools joke" earlier in the year and people were like "You should make a full game like this!". And then a couple days ago, they show the game off again, but this time with the number 7 on the end, and people react with "WAIT NO" I'm interested to see how it's going to turn out, the gameplay they showed was definitely not final. I think it's a very interesting direction to take it, and honestly, Yakuza already has so much RPG in it's DNA, it should fit pretty well. Plus, they've said if there's universal backlash to it, they'll go back to making the series an action game again. It's certainly going to be a cool experiment anyways

[@DesignDoc]

Banjo coming smash was a happy coincidence. The script was done by the time the Yakuza 7 change came to light. Was going to mention it but I forgot. But yeah Yakuza 7 is a perfect example of this. One that I think can work. We might talk about it if we do a vol 2 of this topic.

[@lugbzurg8987]

The Yakuza 7 fiasco is definitely a case where a different name makes all the difference. If it were marketed as a spinoff, and not "7", it would be way more accepted.

[@JayAreAitch]

@@lugbzurg8987 It already made sense for the new game to be labelled "Shin", as a reboot, when it was just a new protagonist. Now it REALLY makes sense to label it "Shin".

[@isidoreaerys8745]

Literally I could not figure out wtf was goin on in nuts and bolts and gave it up after 1 hour.

[@Judgebirb]

man i would of loved a bk remix game tho i would want tooie levels and its move list in the game

[@BingBangPoe]

I think the main issue with Nuts & Bolts is that the game should have been an IP, with no correlation with Banjo & Kazooie. Maybe it could even happen in the same universe, or even as a spin-off, like you said. But it is a Banjo & Kazooie mainline game that deviates from most of what the series has been known for.

[@ConfettiBerg]

Well one things for sure, banjo and kazooie in smash might be they're one chance to be revived once again now that everyone is reminded of them and lately games from the past have been returning (ctrnf, spyro reignited, medieval, e.t.c.) rareware has one chance to possibly bring them back and tbey can not fail again or they'll be gone for good.

[@robonerd125]

I'm still a bit annoyed that BotW didn't have a single iteration of the grappling hook, which in a movement focused exploration game, would be the cherry on top. Maybe BotW 2 will have one.

[@N12015]

@@colin3ds1 And the power of flying 20 meters off the ground to cheese dungeons or climbing walls is not?

[@Jaytaxman]

I bought Brutal Legend twice. Once on Xbox 360 and once on Steam. It is so charming and once you get a handle on how to manage the RTS jank it's a great game. Action/ adventure/RTS/collect-athon/GTA clone. Completely unique and worth the $10 it gets down to on steam.

[@DesignDoc]

There's a ton to LOVE about Brutal Legend which is why I get so disappointed with it. It could easily be on the same level as Psychonauts but there's just this one thing that holds everything back for me. It's still worth the money for all the good stuff...but it could've been much more.

[@somedegenerate6622]

I love BotW. It teaches you the basics on the Great Plateau and then once you're done there it's just fuck around and find out

[@ErikDaVinci]

Game UI's that need to be compared is Planet Coaster / Planet Zoo with Two Point Hospital and Cities Skylines. I'm talking about a reboot genre of simulation games on PC. All games mentioned are really good. Though, Frontier as a company lack in quality in their UI's. There is a lot of sloppyness in big potential. Like having a good categhory system for items, but then not using it properly. You can't find a certain object because they missplaced it. Also things that logically would be together can be split up in 3-4 different categhories. Also, Frontiers games use a lot of fast keyboard commands that are NOT adressed properly in their ingame controllist nor learned out in any tutorials. Their games are complicated but completly drops the idea of tutorials! I tried my both brothers to get into the games but they both gave up because it is to hard to understand the mechanics. I got tired after realizing Frontier will never adress the sloppyness in their cataloge of items. In videios they themself search for every item instead of using the categhory system. And in the end they gave the player their own "item set tools" instead of fix the core one. And now they make a new game from the same foundation. Don't know if they will just continue to ignore these problems or finally adress it. And this is only the top of the iceberg: - Inconsistent quality of item thumbnails were wall items lying down in the picture sometimes. - Inconsistent custom colouring system for objects. - Inconsistent origo point for some 3D objects, making it unneccessary hard to place. - Inconsistent UI when rotating a 3D object. When using the detail wheels, you're not allowed to see any reference dots. Although you can custom choose the distance/angle between dots. ---------- Maybe there is any other here playing Frontiers games here?

[@prmrise]

I love the new smash banjo design

[@aquamarinerose5405]

I'd say with Breath of the Wild that... I don't think that it was a perfect transition, since... I always felt from my experience of the "Core" of Zelda was the Dungeons and Puzzle Solving (Since I started with Wind Waker and Skyward Sword). So... it was good, but felt kinda empty to me personally.

[@whitevii1533]

Nuts and Bolts is the 4th Banjo game. Banjo Kazooie: Grunty's Revenge was the third Banjo game.

[@Modtro64]

great video ^^

[@ksr1581]

You showed a lot of Persona 3 clips, which made me get my hopes up that you'd say something about it :((((

[@ShadowWolfTJC]

Personally, I believe Brutal Legend could've worked out better had it focused on being, at its core, from start to finish, either an rts with a controllable avatar (like Pikmin or Overlord), or the Legend-of-Zelda-esque open-world hack-and-slash game that it had been advertising itself as from the beginning (possibly more along the lines of some other open-world action games like Grand Theft Auto or Red Faction: Guerilla).

[@waterguyroks]

Good writing, interesting topic. I don't think Brutal Legend belongs here though, because you start the video off talking about sequels, and Brutal Legend isn't a sequel. I get that it ties into the whole "brand identity" thing, but the focus is ostensibly on sequels so it feels weird to just have a different focus halfway through. Ironically like what Brutal Legend did?

[@CheshireCad]

There's seems to be too much of an obsession with making every new entry in a series unique and innovative. Sometimes an interesting new game comes out, people like it, and they just... want more of that. People want more pokemon games, to replicate that feeling of discovering new pokemon. People want more Dark Souls and Castlevania games, so that they get to explore new worlds. Every new Zelda game brings a slew of new dungeons to puzzle over. Yes, developers should always be considering new tweaks to the formula that may make it even better. But sometimes it feels like they get antsy after a few games, and try to re-invent the wheel for no reason. Then it flops, the series gets put on hold, and fans then need to wait years for indie games that follow the formula to come out.

[@MysteryCJgamer]

I agree. I am also on the side of 3D zelda. I always expect the next zelda to have the core mechanics that made Oot so great and was disappointed with botw. I really feel like his explanation of botw is incomplete and failed to mention the fans that were alienated.

[@hi-i-am-atan]

@@MysteryCJgamer You reeeeaaaaaally overestimate how relevant you are

[@benedict6962]

Long-standing series like Pokemon are feeling the fatigue too, though. There's only so many variations with the types and stats on hand, and the developers know it. Sometimes even the goal of giving more of the same experience requires tweaks to the formula, and exactly what kind of tweaks is not an easy question to answer.

[@superb3917]

Dude that spongebob movie game soundtrack baited me so much.

[@adv78]

I love Breath of the Wild, yes. It is one of the best Zelda games ever,yes. Byt i still want more classic formula Zeldas. Since SNES fhe franchise was split up in 2, lauching 2D ans 3D Zelda games at the same time. Now i want that they alternate between 2D, 3D linear, and 3D Open World games, cause all 3 types are awesome formulas. As much as Skyward Sword has bad designs in his identity, with Fi spoilling a big chunk of the puzzles, etc, i really like that game, one of the best storys, soundtracks and worlds in any Zelda are in SS. The characters are much more developed that in every other entry (specially Groose) and the dungeons design and puzzles are much more interesting than most dungeons in 3D Zeldas.

[@Tarmin_Slamero]

If there was any mention in this vid of how divisive the changes in Assassin’s Creed Origins combat mechanics was, I totally missed it.

[@salimaa9209]

didn't it use the same fighting as darksouls? (using the trigger and shoulder buttons for attacks)

[@Tarmin_Slamero]

THE MYSTIC POTATO I believe that would be more a matter of combat controls. As for the Assassin’s Creed series pre-“Origins”, the attack controls were the face buttons on the right half with the option of holding a trigger to modify the action.

[@salimaa9209]

@@Tarmin_Slamero yeah then they were modelled after darksouls trigger button combat which seems nice. He didn't mention it.

[@foodice11]

I would say that botw absolutely has a somewhat different core. Dungeons, and progression by item collection are fundamentally different in botw. Thing is it has features that "rhyme" with those fundementals. It's like a cousin to the other games rather than a sibling, in a similar manor to 4 swords or triforce heros.

[@machonerd418]

I loved nuts & bolts

[@VulpesHilarianus]

I think there's a few examples where small scale iterative design is a complete failure. Fallout 3 is wildly different game from Fallout and Fallout 2. We can debate whether or not it's a good game another time, but mechanically it has nothing in common with it's predecessors. This alienated old fans, and introduced it to an entirely new and larger set of fans who enjoyed FPS games on consoles. Meanwhile every single game since Fallout 3 has only been iterative. Fallout: New Vegas tried to break free of 3's template, but Obsidian were forced to simply expand the dialogue and skill options present in Fallout 3's mechanics. Fallout 4 was even more streamlined than Fallout 3, and instead put focus towards fluff like base building and continuing after reaching the end of the story. Fallout 76 turned it into an MMO-not-MMO thing where it was online multiplayer, but built like Fallout 4's singleplayer without NPCs. And then there's CastleVania. Which kept the same formula, mechanics, and feel the same for six games, from CastleVania III through Dracula X. Bloodlines started differently, but then in the end fell in line with the others. Then after Symphony Of The Night, the stagnation started again and didn't end until Order Of Ecclesia. And Pokemon. Which was the same stuff with new gimmicks from Diamond and Pearl up until Sun and Moon. All of these games failed to push their formulas forward, instead just expanding them out. Some just to cover up stagnation. Some because they honestly couldn't think of a way to improve the mechanics meaningfully. But in the end they didn't challenge themselves and suffered for it. On the other hand you have games like Need For Speed. When Blackbox was at the helm there was a revolution that moved Need For Speed away from the exotic love of the late '80s and early '90s to the tuner culture of the late '90s and early 2000s. And they did a damn good job of making it seamless by first introducing special modified versions of the cars in Hot Pursuit II, then moving over to entirely player custom cars for Underground, before moving to free roam for Underground 2. Underground 2 brought in the URL system, where you completed different tasks to unlock a tournament. Most Wanted had the bounty system, where you had to complete open world events to challenge the bosses. Carbon had the team system, where you had to manage your teammates to make racing easier or harder on yourself. And ProStreet used chapters, where you could unlock things linearly, but chose which linear path you completed. It didn't matter what order you did things in, just so long as you completed that path. Aaaaaaaand then EA shot Blackbox multiple times in the stomach and tossed the series around from developer to developer, throwing away all the work of the previous games as Need For Speed developed a new identity with every release. Something that has continued to this very day.

[@syweb2]

This honestly looks like something Design Doc should make a video on, because I learned a lot here.

[@TheTb2364]

In 2019 people still thought that there is a point in releasing anything but next gen upgrades and remakes

[@Cringycoot]

Please,do this community a favor and start making game reviews on your channel