Designing A Keyboard Layout For Ergonomics - No Layer Chords & No Stretching For Keys

As my journey into customisable keyboards continues I have found myself trying to optimise the keyboard layout for ergonomics. The keyboards I’m using are the Planck EZ and Moonlander from ZSA.
Watch next:
I Started Wearing My Keyboard! • “I Started Wearing My ...
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For me, this has meant setting up the keyboard to avoid stretching to reach keys more than a single key from the home keys, including for the thumbs. This avoids those awkward movements in the fingers as well as making it easier to keep home orientation. This limits us to 36 keys on the keyboard.
This of course means we have to use the layer system to access all keys needed. The problem is the default layout uses on-hold layer switch keys and constantly holding these layer keys results in quite a lot of fatigue.
Holding down two keys to obtain a key is called chording. The term is normally used when talking about keyboards like a stenotype and other ‘keyer’ devices that eliminate keys to make it super fast to type. However in this video I’m using the term to describe any key that needs a modifier key to be held as well as the key. This is widespread on normal computer keyboards with the Shift key and other modifiers, but it‘s even more of an issue on a custom keyboard layout that uses layer keys that need to be held down too.
After a lot if experimenting in Oryx (the ZSA keyboard configurator tool) I have come up with this layout. It is based around they idea of four main layers which I will explore in the video.
You can try out these layouts on your Planck EZ and Moonlander by using these links:
Moonlander: configure.ergodox-ez.com/moon...
Less awkward thumb position (see ChrisMeredith comments below ): configure.ergodox-ez.com/moon...
Planck EZ: configure.ergodox-ez.com/plan...
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📺 More of my keyboard videos:
Moonlander Review: • Moonlander Split Keybo...
Planck EZ Review: • Planck EZ Review - The...
Staggered vs Ortholinear: • Conventional Keyboards...
Tap Dance Walkthrough: • Awesome NEW Feature fo...
Using Mouse Mode: • iPad Mouse Support Wit...
Moonlander Extreme Tenting: • Is This The Most Comfo...
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Contents:
0:00 Intro
0:48 The problem with layers
2:20 What are customisable layouts anyway?
3:01 Layers without on-hold keys
4:50 The multi-talented mouse/navigation layer
6:36 Double-tap for numpad
7:29 The secret layer! (Keyboard config)
7:55 Turbo-charged main layer
10:06 Killing Shift for symbols (boosted with Tap Dance)
12:57 What’s it like to use?
Please note: any advice or information in this video is for entertainment purposes only. I am not a medical practitioner and this is not medical advice.
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[@BenVallack]

Subscribe to my new custom keyboards channel! www.youtube.com/@BenVallacksKeyboards

[@xander0528]

Over the last year I’ve developed chronic wrist pain due to typing. The doctor originally told me that I needed surgery to fix it, but after watching your videos and implementing some of these strategies I’ve drastically removed the burden on my wrist and I think they are finally starting to heal! Being only thirty and programming for a living you can imagine how much of a relief this is! Thank you! Great content! Keep it up!

[@BenVallack]

Man than is great news!

[@patrickbuchanan3960]

I had similar issues and another thing you should try is find a chiropractor that does ART and graston. If you can only do one, go for the art. Seems like most who do art do graston as well. I used the ergodoxez and have the moonlander as well.

[@samduckerin]

I’m in the same boat and I’ve recently discovered that arm exercises (eg weights) have given me massive relief on top of all the ergonomic stuff

[@littlebumgorf]

@@samduckerin yes, strength building is way better than seeing chiropractors

[@youtubeaccount2302]

Real depth and yet absolutely zero waffle. My new favourite channel.

[@GT-tj1qg]

I had never thought of a "go to layer" button instead of a toggle. Very clever

[@Maartz]

As a moonlander owner, I feel like I do not use the keyboard as much I could. Like I was using VIM only for motions haha. Thank you so much Ben, you're a blessing!

[@sommeone]

This is an absolutely amazing layout! Super impressed with what you did here!

[@BenVallack]

Thank you so much!

[@strictnonconformist7369]

I love the fact that your cat is there to inspect your work. Just admit it: the real reason to get a split keyboard is so the most important thing to you is achieved, that of servicing the cat’s needs as it rests in the spot between the two halves! Of course, this means you’ve got to change back to not having the halves with the bean bag in the middle ;) Now I’m imagining the cat wearing the keyboard halves on its sides 😹

[@BenVallack]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/n4DYoayfYtGEkK8 here’s one for you!

[@AlexMercadoGo]

Finally, a well-explained layout for macOS!

[@DavoToGo]

Brilliant. So glad this video was made. I love split and minimal keyboards, so you're like, my nerdy enthusiast inspiration lol.

[@SantiagoCorbalanH]

Excelent video Ben! I've been following your channel more and more as I wait for my new Planck. I'd love to see if you could come up with variations on these layout oriented to people on the PC side of things. Keep up the good work!

[@NuclearSpinach]

THANK YOU for all of this detail!

[@Quot_]

This is great! I will definitely be stealing these ideas for my layout. My layers are kind of wonky right now and need some fixing up.

Really enjoy seeing the progress on your keyboard setup. I have been taking few things from you to tweak my planck, thanks for the inspiration! Will explore using one shot keys :)

[@BenVallack]

Awesome!

[@Cangussu97]

Incredible video, really. I recently got myself a moonlander due to some wrist straining and hadnt really found a smart way to use layers and this was really helpful. Keep it up!

[@BenVallack]

Thanks so much!

[@giri404]

Most underrated channel. you deserve huge success Ben. love your content

[@BenVallack]

Many thanks!

[@eddieparker2623]

Some really solid ideas here. I really like the idea of having keys that get you into a layer reliably, so you can spam them and know you're in the right place - reminds me of 'escape' when in vim. As an aside - I do like that you show your physical fingers on your layout, but that tenting you have makes it hard to be instructional in the video. I get that it's part of your ergo setup, but I find myself wishing you just had a top-down view with your hands in place, as I can grok it a lot easier and see both hands at once.

[@enterusername7746]

This is awesome. I will create my own layout for the Voyager based on this.

[@AnneloesF]

Absolute magic!

[@bangs_edit]

Very nice!

[@danielhako1]

I myself got a MoonLander because of you, Thanks much bro ;)

[@MarcelRiegler]

Looks super interesting. It reminds a lot of VIM modes, actually. Or the Spacemacs shortcut system. In that, you start everything with space, an then a series of mnemonic keys. Like SPC f(ile) s(ave). The multiple strokes feel more natural, because that's what typing already is anyway: Just hitting multiple keys after another.

[@BenVallack]

Yeah for sure, I use the space + key thing in VIM a lot too so it‘s definitely a good stepping stone.

[@grantawesome]

Hi Ben, nice video. You may want to look into the Miryoku layout for maximum usability with 36 keys. I'm using a heavily modified Miryoku layout on my Planck with only 36 keys and between the home row mods and home row hold layers it works beautifully with minimal movement off of the home row.

[@ianofSST]

I'm also using a personalised version of the Miryoku layout now but I feel that the idea of tapping to enter a layer instead of holding a key (like how it is done on Miryoku) really does wonders to reduce the tension when typing

[@badhatharry4323]

never been this early. I plan on getting an ergo board once I get my first salary, and these videos are amazing. I will definitely follow loads of the tips given here!

[@also.email.address]

your background is awesome!!! >

[@BenVallack]

Thanks!! Ultimately it was too close and had too much echo so I changed it, check out the new version in some of my more recent vids.

[@BeansEnjoyer911]

Subbed. Loved how you indexed the video

[@BenVallack]

Many thanks!

[@BenVallack]

@@benisrood Will do cheers!

[@Vandalfoe]

Excellent content! And your cat is gorgeous!

[@BenVallack]

She will be getting her own channel soon I think!

[@bradd5961]

Very good Ben. Currently on a Redox keyboard. I have found that layout to be perfect even though it has more keys. Iris is another good one if you can live with less thumb keys.

[@BenVallack]

Thanks for the info!

[@DanzigDanne]

So pumped for my moonlander!! :D

[@DanzigDanne]

​@@benisrood My keyboard is schedule to arrive tomorrow so it great to hear that you are, at least mostly, happy with it. I liked the idea of i3wm, and tiling windows managers, and it does seem more productive then floating windows. Seems to taken inspiration from vim and tmux, which I like. I found that pretty much everything that is idot-proof is inferior to tools with a steep learning curve. I mostly avoid the mouse with Vimium, for browsing, and Magnet for arranging windows with shortcuts. The mouse definitely has it's places, but the keyboard is often way faster. Thanks for your response, always nice with different perspectives.

[@DanzigDanne]

@@benisrood What did you think of the auto-shift funktionality?

I use a 28 key layout on a Moonlander, but directly on custom QMK firmware, to be able to use Combos. The main advantage is to be able to fire letters in the two middle columns by tapping combinations of two keys. For example, in qwerty, I would be able to type T by pressing together EF, and similarly DF gives me G, and DV gives me B. It's the next step forward in ergonomics (if you are interested in custom QMK).

[@BenVallack]

Yeah combos are interesting, what I don't really understand is why that would improve ergonomics, surely it falls under chords as something that is more fateaguing?

@@BenVallack The combo saves me lateral hand movement, and I can have a layout with zero wrist movement. For me that's good. Pressing two keys at a time is easier than chording, as you don't have to maintain one key down, but it's true that it involves doubling the force the hand applies. It's a preference at this point... Maybe with stiff key switches, this could be a problem.

[@BenVallack]

Ah yes good poin re. the duration, I can definitely see the logic here. I hate the middle coloums! Presumably adjacent combos are pretty easy on the hands compared to a mod chord too. Very interesting cheers.

@@BenVallack For what I can tell from your recent videos you ended up going down the combo rabbit hole too :) I love your content! (writing this form a 3W6 keyboard)

[@user-vd3ph6zh8q]

I know this is old but I've been trying out using caps lock we my hyper/super key for my macbook and using a,s,d for alphabets, symbols, and digits on a qwerty layout. And so instead of holding it down, it's permanent layers like you described, and I use a program called karabiner elements which can send notifications based on keypresses, so I have it notify me which layer i switched to. You could probably incorporate f for function keys.

[@jwbwater1]

Working on a layout for a microdox. Really helpful to hear what your experience has been with 36 key layouts. If I use long-press home row modifiers, I guess I'll have to break my habit of relying on auto repeat to move around in Vim. Have to remap some neurons too :)

[@avgsoul]

Ben, what's your typing speed on the Moonlander v. Planck v. the Apple Magic keyboard?

[@mbarton98]

Nice, I think I need to watch this a couple more times. I'm using 32 keys on the Planck, which was inspired by your other video. Emacs key bindings are mostly chords, but I feel I have those optimized on the home row.

[@BenVallack]

Nice, yeah yeah vim is a bit of a mix of leader key consecutive bindings and then a load of ctrl mod bindings. I'd love to improve on ctrl+d/u for scrolling! This layout builds a lot on the last one so lots of the tap dance tricks are still there etc.

[@mbarton98]

@@BenVallack I was reviewing the config and was not sure how you would use CTRL-Enter which is a common shortcut for Jupyter Notebooks to execute the cell. I also have some database clients that use that same shortcut to execute the SQL statement. In my case I occasionally connect to my Windows 10 in addition to the Mac and iPad, so keeping all the modifiers has been helpful. One of the best things you got me to do finally is to stop using the numbers on the top row. I now just use the ones in the numpad arrangement. configure.ergodox-ez.com/planck-ez/layouts/JvQqB/latest/0

[@BenVallack]

@@mbarton98 Cool layout! Ctrl+Enter on my layout here is possible in all the secondary layers, including the one shot. So jump into the one shot layer then just hold ctrl and tap enter. It bounces you back to the main layer after that.

[@davidcooper8241]

i wonder whether chording is a problem if you make sure you're always pressing the modifier with one hand and the key itself with another... I use AHK on windows and have set up something similar-ish to this system, but using a regular keyboard. I'm using pinkies to hold modifiers a lot, and the thought has definitely occurred to me - that a system intended to improve comfort might end up backfiring by giving me some kind of fatal pinkie cramp. hasn't happened yet

[@johnhendy1281]

I'm brand new to your channel, so it's funny seeing 2:40 where you discuss ZSA/Oryx and how great it is, knowing future you will be designing custom PCBs and using ZMK :)

[@BenVallack]

Heh yeah - rabbit hole rewind!

[@zylanx]

I have heard people say a number of times that the thumb is the strongest digit. Would it make sense to move the column to the side of each index finger down to thumb keys and then maybe you could use that freed column for layer switching since it is used a lot less? I don't quite know how you would deal with modifiers though...

[@urzalukaskubicek9690]

Did you change anything since you made this video?

[@frozen_tortus]

Thanks, Ben, I enjoy watching your videos. That being said I stopped using the dedicated backspace button for some time now and literally helped my hands tromoundasly. Holding 'j' and taping 's' is not backspace for me :)

[@birthing4blokes46]

Thank you for this video, i am a newbie, what I want is a prebuilt keyboard, slip board, with some of the features you mention here. what do I look at?

[@BenVallack]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mpiVhYdnhK-fh9U

[@sommeone]

One of the most interesting alternatives I've seen to the tap-dance style hold/double tap keys is a solution specific to the closer set keys you'd find on a choc-switch board, where you have key chords using two keys next to each other that you can (eventually) consistently do by just pressing in between the two keys (effectively adding an extra layer without having to switch to another layer). It lets you have chords without any of the disadvantages of chords. If you want an extreme example, look up the FaunchPad, it's genuinely hilarious how much functionality they can squeeze out of just 8 keys (not all of it useful... They definitely didn't need 25 different cat gifs)

[@sommeone]

@@benisrood Hmm, would you mind explaining what that means? I'm not familiar with that method

[@BenVallack]

@Sommeguy what he means is where you set up a one shot type layer where you hit a key then tap the next key. So you are rolling over two keys instead of holding more than one key down at the same time. Agree though that the holding two keys with one finger is very interesting. I will try it on my Gergoplex if it ever arrives!

[@dgaa1991]

Where can I get a bean bag like this? I just broke my arm and could really use this :D

[@titan-0016]

Do you have any feedback on keyboard io?

[@nnii-rn7co]

Hey @BenVallack, thanks for the very useful video! How did you like the Cmd+alpha hold behavior on the base layer? Are you still using that?

[@BenVallack]

Actually I abandoned that - I have a normal CMD on my right thumb these days.

[@nnii-rn7co]

@@BenVallack thanks for the response! I'll probably skip experimenting the Cmd+alpha on hold and start directly with the dedicated Cmd key on thumb :)

[@Patrickblox]

Hi Ben, I have been thinking about a good mouse to complement an ergonomic setup and was intrigued by you using a trackpad rather than regular office mouse. I unfortunately don't have the opportunity to get an Apple Magic Trackpad since I use Windows, but why exactly do you use trackpads rather than regular mice? Do you find them more comfortable?

[@BenVallack]

I figured with a mouse you are often resting your wrist somewhere when using it, but with a trackpad it‘s easier to just hover over it without putting pressure anywhere. I still avoid using it with the spit keyboard because it‘s hard to find your home orientation again but it‘s a pretty comfortable experience.

[@thehobojoe]

How do you cope with the keypress delay introduced by tapdance keys? I recently got my own moonlander (thanks in part to your very informative videos) and was very excited by long-press, double-tap, auto-shift etc. functionality, but I'm finding it all nearly unusable because it changes the feedback of a standard keypress by waiting to send the keypress until the upstroke instead of on the initial downstroke activation. It seems mostly usable on more infrequent keys (like Z or X, or some of the more nearby symbols on a QWERTY layout) but it's extremely frustrating on any of the more primary letter keys. Is there a trick to this or do you just accept the loss in responsiveness and get used to it? I definitely like the idea of eliminating chords though, I'm just getting used to different configurations and my initial layer setups with chords have definitely introduced some finger fatigue, mostly in my pinky fingers. Definitely going to have to play around with those, and the shift/ctrl keys. Love these videos, keep it up.

[@BenVallack]

Thanks! Yeah surprisingly getting used to the delay in responsiveness was really easy. It actually now feels pretty odd seeing letters come up normally now! My brain has somehow corrected for it. Also it‘s not too bad when you’re actually typing because the subsequent key makes the previous one catch up, so it’s the last key in a string of typing where it‘s most obvious, but yeah definitely something that no longer bothers me at all.

[@jmbuhr]

Check out the Tapping-settings in Oryx. If you are normally a pretty fast and light typist, setting the "tapping term" to a lower value might help. It takes some experimentation, but if you set it to the lowest value possible while not accidentally firing the holding version during normal typing, it feels very good.

[@porkmancer]

I know it’s not super relevant to layout, but I was wondering what switches you use in your moonlander? And are you still using speed silver switches in your planck? Great video btw :)

[@BenVallack]

I got some Kailh Silent Pinks which I got for the Planck but actually I like them so much I put them on the Moonlander. It's becoming clear to me that my preference is really leaning to ultra light linear switches. Hoping to try Gateron Clears soon.

[@GregorGorjanc]

A video on these switches would be great! I am into ultra light linears as well

[@BenVallack]

@@GregorGorjanc Yeah will do a bit of a roundup especially when I get some 12g chocs on the gergoplex to look at too.

[@ROROAKABOMBA]

This is amazing I have binged your videos lol. Is this the same for windows or would it be incompatible?

[@BenVallack]

It works the same on any platform - no drivers needed - it just presents itself as any other usb keyboard. Obviously where I have application switcher shortcuts you’d need to tweak those.

[@ROROAKABOMBA]

@@BenVallack awesome thank you. Love your content

[@thedog5k]

Man, this is funny to see. I've seen your newer videos, and have ordered a voyager. I've been doing so much thinking about layouts and research. I found more and more and started thinking about the potential issues I'd have. Funny enough, I think you touched on some of them here... two years ago lol Some people had problems with trying to find a place for shift, auto shift seems like an idea ( not sold yet tho) I started out looking at home row mods, but obvious the change for misfire seems annoying, especially when you roll... so I found one shot mods!!!! I thought I solved everything but found them to be rather annoying ( especially with the timing on the hold thumb), and more importantly that you need mods on your home row in all your layers... this gets really bad if you want a num row instead of pad... It totally removes the option to use mods on numbers Edit 1: do think layer toggles in a layer hold isn't a bad idea either. Depends on usage though Some people say don't use layers and end up having so many combos my brain hurts, and of course it would be a nighmare of misfires. I think it's an awful solution. Another thing... with so few thumb keys... Space and backspace on my left thumb feels non negotiable. Tab enter on my right is HIGHLY preferable, maybe necessary. I'd PREFER to keep layers off of these priority thumb keys. Also if they keyboard tucks the thumb too much under my palm it hurts. My solutions I have been thinking about is for the navigation/ mouse layers using some 2/3 letter combo to toggle it. This makes it kind of like vim edit mode or something. I find that these layers are ones that you "stay" in for a while and holding it down for a prolonged period of time would be a hassle. Something like a num layer/pad, symbol, layer are things you use often, but usually just as needed. I think these could be layer holds by the nature of them. I think numpad with mods on the opposite hand, or num row with sticky mod combos could be legit. ( Edit 2: symbols on OSL is smart because sometimes you only need 1, and if you want to hold you CAN rather than have to). F layer/media layers are much more rare for me.... I'm trying to figure out what to do with these. Maybe a layer on a pinky key? I only use left shift during typing. Maybe my right shift can be that.

[@fev4]

Hey Ben, it would be very interesting if you check out the foostan/crkbd keyboard. It has a 3x6 column ortogonal layout

[@BenVallack]

Watch this space :)

[@localchumb]

Sir you make the best videos. I have mouse hand troubles, is that a pad you’re using instead of a mouse? I really need to figure something out fast… I can barely click anymore

[@BenVallack]

Thanks! Yeah the Apple Magic trackpad. This video has some good tips on mice too kzbin.info/www/bejne/eJrKaWN3iNl7ibc

[@localchumb]

@@BenVallack I'm assuming this works on a Windows PC? How do you like yours so far? I skimmed to see if ya made a video that included it but i didn't seem to find any

[@BenVallack]

Actually not sure, I can imagine there might be some compatibility issues. I think it’s still best to avoid using it, even though I think it might be better for RSi than a nornal mouse. Learning all keyboard shortcuts and then sparing use of mouse mode on your keyboard can save you needing it much at all.

[@trocchiettoski]

Hey Ben I see in this video you use VIm, as even firefox and Chrome and all the dev IDE have Vim plugin, there is a way to use tap dancing and your nice tricks to find the final keyboard nirvana experience?

[@BenVallack]

Actually I’m still predominantly using the mac native shortcuts when jumping around the OS. This layout makes it so easy to do even complex mac shortcut combos so you can get pretty snappy with it. I would like to try some of the VIM plugins though.

[@trocchiettoski]

@@BenVallack I would then suggest yabai the tile manager for mac inspired on i3wm makes navigating on mac os blazingly fast when one needs to split the screen as a programmer, or spectacle with or without karabiner. Happy coding and tapping

[@02mb]

Hi Ben, I'm typing this on my Ergodox EZ keyboard, which I've arranged to be fully split. F-to-J, the distance is shoulder-width apart. I bring this up because I see your beanbag, which keeps your hands close together. In order to bring your hands together, you must contract your pectoralis minor muscle, among others. This sustained shortening of the pec minor can lead to problems down the road like rounded shoulders, which isn't good long-term. Long term, we want to keep our chest open and proud if we are to maintain good posture while we compute. I've learned this the hard way and am writing in hopes that you do your homework on it and consider challenging your beliefs on an ergonomic setup. I think your tenting is spot-on... too much for me right now as I'm still getting the hang of this thing, but you'll do your body good by maintaining an open computing posture versus a closed one. I'm not a doctor or anything, just someone who's been computing for 35 years and am now feeling the adaptive shortening that comes from keeping your arms out in front of you instead of opening the chest and having the board split at shoulder-width. If you'd like to take this for a spin and get a deeper understanding of what's going on with your muscles, place your hand on the desk but keep it aligned with your shoulder. Rest the fingers of your opposite hand on your chest, right at the arm pit. Note the muscle tone (firmness). Should be neutral, soft. This is the position of a fully split keyboard. Now, move the extended hand to your keyboard, and begin typing. What do you notice? You should notice some tightening of that pec minor as it contracts in order to being your arm across your body to meet the keyboard. So, with this muscle now contracted, imagine how this can affect your body after long hours, days, -- a lifetime of computing. Over time, your muscles remember this new baseline level of tension, and your shoulders will begin to round forward, which causes a whole slew of compensations to happen in your body. You may develop tension in other muscles as your body begins to adapt to this new configuration. Like muscle memory switching from staggered to ortholinear, so too does your body learn new tricks. Not all of them are healthy tricks, though. Stay well. While I couldn't follow along in this video--tough to envision everything you're saying when I'm not familiar with your layout like I am with mine--I really enjoy the channel... super quality audio/video, along with great ideas, and your demeanor is one of a kind.

[@02mb]

BTW, I've got notifications turned off for replies so I'll never see any replies to this unless I come back to the video... but I wonder if you'd give the fully split approach a try and see how relaxed you feel (or not) after a day or two of trial. I can't say I feel different right away, but when you understand anatomy, you understand that these muscles don't want to stay contracted all day long.

[@BenVallack]

Awesome yeah totally agree. I'm sold on the idea of a wide split for sure. Interestingly here the split is wider than it looks because my arms are not above the keys, but outwards. There's certainly room for a bit wider but it's probably only a few inches each side. Enjoyed your detailed comment though many thanks!

[@jackielrothschild5893]

Have you ever looked into the Keymouse Track? I would be very curious about your thoughts on it.

[@BenVallack]

Wow that is very interesting! It would losing the extreme tenting that I’ve got rather used to though. But very interesting idea for sure. Would love to try it!

[@Yggdrasil42]

Damn, that price though. Would love to try it.

[@alpacamale2909]

I've never liked holding down keys. it restricts your movement because I have unusually short fingers, that's why I type capitals with caps lock instead of shift, and why my number layer is togglable instead of temporary while holding down a key.

[@BenVallack]

Yeah I wonder about this for shift too, I might see if I can come up with a one shot shift key.

[@an93lofdeath]

Look into home row modifiers it changed my life.

[@BenVallack]

Facepalm! There is a one shot mod key in QMK/Oryx! I've switched shift and ctrl to this now.

[@alpacamale2909]

@@BenVallack Yeah OSM(MOD_LSFT). it is amazing. I needed to tap caps lock twice, before and after. Now I have to do it just once. not just that. with #define ONESHOT_TAP_TOGGLE 2 on your config.h file you can toggle caps lock by pressing the key twice. I actually removed caps lock because it has issues in linux related to the OS itself. This solves all that

[@BenVallack]

Thats awesome, exactly what I've been looking for!

[@threepe0]

I'm sort of skeptical of this approach (working for me,) while being impressed that you've gotten it to work for you... it seems like getting rid of the shift key by replacing it with a bunch of other keys... that then take away from your available keys. I don't have any layer tap keys that don't also serve other purposes: my layer tap keys also send codes if I release them without pressing another key, or if I double-tap them. I also can't imagine having to hold down a layer tap key long enough to develop any sort of stress on my hands... mouse is triggered by holding down both layer keys, done by one finger in between caps. I threw control in with Z for example, hold z for control. Same can be done with alt, but I do have a dedicated alt key currently. Tap dance is interesting, but the extra time that is necessary for the keyboard to differentiate between a tap vs a tap and hold for example always threw me off. This sort of thing comes up with combos too. Let's say I have a combo on a poorly chosen set of characters, let's say "c and o" at the same time; If I'm typing quickly and I type a word that has "co" in it, I may accidentally send the combo instead of "c" followed by "o," and if I lengthen or shorten the time it takes for a combo to be registered, it's a balance between combo convenience and typing speed/comfort. Anyways, sorry for the rant. It's great to see someone else's perspective, and how they approach things in their ergonomic quest. I'm definitely going to subscribe and see how things go for you, thanks for sharing!

[@BenVallack]

Thanks for your comments! All totally valid points. Yeah I think the cmd on hold tap dance is one of those ‘take it or leave it’ things. I am trying home row mods for cmd/alt/ctrl now with the sticky shift still on the thumb. This is actually working out ok but I am missing the sticky ctrl key. (Actually can’t recal if I had enabled sticky mods in this video or not but I did soon after if not, great feature)

[@marcelo55869]

Have you ever considered a Stenotype ?

[@AlexMercadoGo]

I’d love to hear more about how this layout affects the use of your video editing software.

[@BenVallack]

The only thing that I had to accommodate really was the placement of +/- and _/= so I could zoom the timeline horizontally and vertically. All the other shortcuts like J and L I just use as normal but in the Colemak locations.

[@jmagaram]

I love the video and am looking at doing this for Ergodox. But I can't figure out where all the symbols went - super important for programming. For example where are < > and question mark? Pipe character? Also, = takes three taps which seems super inconvenient, especially for programming.

[@BenVallack]

Cheers! < > Are as normal, shift + , or . ⧵ and | are on the middle row of the one shot layer on the right hand, along with all the brackets, very fast to get to. = on the num layer isn’t too bad, it’s a double tap on the thumb home key then the key as appossed to a stretched shift chord on a normal layout, so I think it’s probably slightly more time and maybe a fraction more movement but less fatiguing and awkward than shift+stretching to top row on a normal keyboard.

[@jmagaram]

@@BenVallack looked at this again. For the = don’t you have two taps to get to the num layer, one tap for the =, and then another tap to get back to the main layer? So 4 taps for =. I’m working on a programming layout and = is a super common key. I’m surprised you didn’t put = on the first one shot layer along with enter and esc and then put a character like ^ deeper down. At least a tap dance for the = on the one shot layer so maybe switch to one shot and hold a key for =. What language are you programming? Has this = really worked for you?

[@jmagaram]

@@BenVallack Also why not use the thumb keys on the one shot layer? Good place for common stuff like = and Enter.

[@BenVallack]

@@jmagaram Yeah = is definitely a weak one and optimisation would be great. Using a tap dance on the one shot is great idea, as is using the other thumb keys. I will have a play. I use PHP and front end code so = does get used a lot! I think I wanted to just get myself super happy going into that num layer just to see if that double tap layer mechanism would be workable. It’s not a perfect solution but it does avoid home row mods which is pretty cool for a 36 key layout. Not that home row mods are a big issue but they might not be for everyone and I certainly have’t managed to get past the roll issue despite fiddling with the settings.

[@Instinct0425]

this seems a lot more confusing to me than chording so i may try it but i’m not sure if i’ll stick with this

[@BenVallack]

Yerh it is kind of more confusing, but once you get your head around it, much less fateaguing on the fingers.

[@Instinct0425]

@@BenVallack interesting. i’ll be sure to try it out

[@VitaliyZaytsev]

why didn't you put enter (tap) on same key with alt (hold)?

[@BenVallack]

I’ve actually now set up alt as a toggle mod so it can be tapped instead of held down, which rules that option out. It’s an intersting idea but I generally havn’t got on very well with dual function mods so far.

[@manwithllama]

3:54: Fun fact: You are describing what is called an *idempotent* action/button. That is, after the first press, any subsequent presses don't change anything. Wikipedia has a pretty great example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idempotence Love your videos! Thank you for sharing all your design decisions. As I result, I will be buying/building my first split keyboard (a choc corne) soon!

[@BenVallack]

Ha! Brilliant cheers for info!

[@savannahralli6988]

Where do I find this bean bag rest?

[@BenVallack]

Added link to description thanks!

[@jammies701]

Ridiculous quality mate

[@0netom]

I really like how you go into depth sharing how does it feel to use certain layouts. It's very reassuring to hear, that others also find pressing certain keys awkward. Where would you put the function keys in this (or the v2) layout? As an IntelliJ user, I use quite a few Fn keys, in combination with a subset of Cmd/Opt/Shift keys.

[@BenVallack]

Many thanks! Re. f keys, I guess it’s another layer, depending on if you use them consecutively or just one off you could use a one shot layer or a toggle.

[@999samus7]

Good to see you're improving the ergonomics of your keyboard Ben! I don't know if more people would agree with me, but the keyboard layout nerd in me would love a video sharing your experiences with workman and colemak mod dh.

[@BenVallack]

Cheers. Yeah I get asked this a lot, I am compiling my resources, data, thoughts and experiences for a video sooner rather than later hopefully!

[@999samus7]

@@BenVallack I will happily wait for it.

[@trackvegeta8716]

I just received my moonlander yesterday. For a keyboard of 370 euros tax included, I was expected a better quality build. As recommended by zsa, I'm using it flat for the moment. Each time I put my hands on the wings there are small noises due to wobles. I checked your videos, in general it seems you are using it without the wings. I think I will remove them quickly. Compared to the dygma raise, the build quality is slightly below

[@trackvegeta8716]

@@benisrood For the moment I'm using it flat. The wobble is about the wrist support

[@Gijera]

What are your thoughts on "home row mods"? I see that you seem to not like chords, but having them on the home row seems very natural and not as strenuous as in other placements. Here's a detailed description of what they are and different variations and tools:. precondition.github.io/home-row-mods#what-are-home-row-mods

[@BenVallack]

Thanks so much for the link. Great info in there. It clarifies my feelings so far on it though in that it‘s not possible to fire a shifted letter with a fast roll, which, after testing it, is something apparently do! I love the idea but don’t think I can get past this, or maybe I should just learn to deal with it!

[@BenVallack]

Having said that it does look there might be a way to get this set up to work given all the options to adjust, will definitely keep experimenting! If this works it might be nice to get Enter, Tab and Esc onto a thumb key instead of via the one shot layer.

[@camsloan8671]

I have set my moonlander up with home row modifiers and I don’t think I will ever switch - but never say never I guess. There is definitely some tweaking needed to find the right hold time, and then it maybe catches me once or twice per day, but the convenience of it has far outweighed the cons. I also didn’t think it would be something I do, but since I have the mode, I just mash ASDF or HJKL to do the hyper key haha. It’s easy to remember and orchestrate because I just hold down all the keys on one hand while I tap a key with the other.

[@Gijera]

@@camsloan8671 I haven't got a moonlander or plank yet, though I think I'll get the moonlander soon. Do you have any tips that you could share? What were some of the problems you've had with home row mods?

[@camsloan8671]

@@Gijera It was awkward to learn at first, but that's like any keyboard modification you will make. I think the toughest part of the home row mods is getting the right timing so they trigger fast enough, but not so fast that when you "roll " your key presses, it triggers the modifiers. That said, it's not that hard to dial it in. The other downside (from any modified keyboard layout), is now I suck at using my laptop/ipad keyboard haha. But if you spend time on both devices, it's possible to get past that. I have not really had any other downsides from the home row mods to be honest. It works extremely well for me. The key is "for me" since this stuff can be very personal. Hope that helps. Enjoy your new keyboard once it arrives!

[@benlu]

I didn't catch how you hit space?

[@BenVallack]

Left thumb home key

[@BA-ve7xp]

can u make a voyager version BEN PLEASE FOR MY FAMILY

[@BenVallack]

It should be pretty simple to convert this to Voyager. Just have them open in two browser windows and reproduce it key by key.

[@TylerNickerson]

When you went to a 36 key layout I thought you had gone mad. I had been using a plank for about 2 years with a handful of small modifications to the default layout. But, I started tinkering with the idea and I'm down to 36 keys! Will using toggle layers and tap dance to avoid chording be the same? Only time will tell. For now, I think you've gone mad :)

[@BenVallack]

ha! Here‘s a new version, remove thumb keys and swap hands! configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/VYNpM/latest/0

[@an93lofdeath]

Your layout is very interesting but too extreme for me. I use home row modifiers to help with stretching and contortions while holding a key and pressing another it has changed my life. Wrist and elbow pain almost gone.

[@BenVallack]

Yeah I’m going to continue exploring the home row mod idea, I love the idea of it but each time I’ve messed about with it it causes me issues when rolling from shift to a key.

[@an93lofdeath]

@@BenVallack I'm not sure what you mean by rolling off. I have them on both sides and use the opposite side when needing a shift.

[@BenVallack]

It‘s the situation where you hit a second key before releasing the first one. precondition.github.io/home-row-mods#ignore-mod-tap-interrupt It that article it discusses it in detail, I’m not sure if there‘s a solution or not even with the setting there.

[@an93lofdeath]

@@BenVallack ah ok, I haven't come up against this issue as I'm still getting used to it and so am still slow enough not to have this happen yet. We will see lol.

[@AlexMercadoGo]

Has anybody converted this layout to Ergodox EZ? I'm feeling lazy.

[@AlexMercadoGo]

None of y'all did my homework for me, so I had to do it myself. Here's Vallack's 36 key layout for Ergodoz EZ: configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez/layouts/xKJwR/latest/0 Small changes: (1) I added a Command (⌘) modifier to the left thumb since I need it for arrow key navigation. That technically makes this 37 keys. (2) I used a key for opening the symbols panel instead of typing £/€, which I don't use frequently. (3) I have simple characters for some symbols (e.g., '#') instead of key combos (Shift + 3). (4) Slightly different labels for cuteness / clarity. (5) Added '-' when holding hyphen (-). (6) Added a mute key. (7) Left in a simple QWERTY gaming layer (which there's no way to get to) for the convenience of people who will want to add it.

[@BenVallack]

Awesome thanks for sharing!

[@qwing123]

Hi Ben, would you happen to have the keymap files for your layout on the gergoplex that you wouldn't mind sharing?

[@BenVallack]

Keep meaning to get them online, will do asap!

[@cameredith0]

move all your keys up a row and use the three above thumb cluster. take off thumb cluster

[@BenVallack]

Ha yes great idea actually! Not looking forward to the session in Oryx to pull that off though!

[@cameredith0]

@@BenVallack just use swap

[@cameredith0]

@@BenVallack you might get rsi due to thumb contraction on meh and right ctrl

[@BenVallack]

Yeah they do feel too far tucked under. I'm going to try leaving the shift/alt on the cluster then move the rest up and the other two thumb keys can move into the center.

[@cameredith0]

​@@BenVallack ​ I'm actually ditching the moonlander for the gergoplex with 12g chocs and white mbk key caps. super excited, should be here any day

[@diltsman]

Can you make this layout public? It would be nice to look at it in more detail.

[@BenVallack]

Is the link not working for you?

[@diltsman]

@@BenVallack I missed the link earlier. That does work. I was trying to search for it on Oryx.

[@BenVallack]

Cool yeah not sure why it doesn't seem to come up in search!

[@trackvegeta8716]

As a C++ programmer, the other keys I’m using a lot are programming symbols and arrow keys. I have two dedicated layers. My layout is QWERTY for the moment. ({= are three important keys. I have put them in the home row in the programming layer. But I’m testing setting them on hjk on the main layout with double tap. It seems that double tap is more convenient for these keys. Did you try to investigate more about using double tap ?

[@BenVallack]

There are a few keys I’m adding double tap too now, just need to make sure the single tap key is never something you’d want two of!

[@MarkusBurrer]

A lot of your decisions won't work for me, especially the one shot layer. I don't really see the advantage of tapping the layer button instead of holding it. For example: you have keys like # or " on your OSL, that I have to type two or even three times when I'm coding. I'm also using Tiling Window Manager on Linux that are controlled by keyboard shortcuts. I'm still tweaking my 34 key layout, maybe I go for 36, but I don't have problems To "Play cords" because I also do this on a (music) keyboard or piano. I just have to place the keys for the cords in a way that I don't have inconvenient finger positions.

[@MaximillianApplin]

You basically made a 5 column corne, you should give that a go, will be a much more compact form factor!

[@BenVallack]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/fou5lHV5bKZ_oq8 :)

[@MaximillianApplin]

@@BenVallack oh, nice! I recently went from Planck to a 6 column corne and am loving it, haven’t tried the home row mods yet but this has convinced me to set them up. Great work on the videos by the way

[@BenVallack]

Many thanks! I actually gave up with home row mods and went for the sticky thumb mods as in this video. Really enjoying the layout still, remarkable lack of any fatigue in the hands.

[@MaximillianApplin]

@@BenVallack oh I should watch the whole thing! Check out the skeletyl keyboard, I think you might like it

[@BenVallack]

Ha yeah that is quite something! Might have to try that one day!

[@pjk7685]

What kind of accent do you have? It sounds a bit british and a bit american, or maybe im to tired.

[@BenVallack]

Yeah british :)