This Waterproof Coat Doesn't Use Gore-Tex (And That's a Good Thing)

[@mattbibbings]

That was a well put together piece. I teach outdoors and have done for 25 years. My Paramo Anaolgy jackets have worked longer in more environments and outlasted every other (and I've tried everything!) jacket I have. The core truth is that nothing is waterproof always and everywhere. Paramo Analogy (well looked after) is drier longer and in more places and situations. Our entire outdoor staff (20 outdoor teachers) are issued Paramo.

[@BenVallack]

Great comment thanks!

[@TheTwitchybird]

Throw on an old type style fishermans oil based outfit and you'll be 100% wind and waterproof for weeks, months and years.

[@ShadeSlayer1911]

@@TheTwitchybird Where does one get one of these oil based outfits?

[@BenVallack]

Slight terminology correction: liquid water on a wetted out face fabric is just liquid water, I incorrectly referred to it as 100% humidity. The term '100% humidity' is best to only be used to describe moist air at the point it can't accept any more moisture. Much more on this in my next video.

[@inevespace]

the problem you described in the video can be solved by higher air pressure inside. In general, vapor pressure near body is higher than outside because body is hotter. As result vapor migrates outside. But if outside temperature is close to body temp, vapor pressure outside can be higher if humidity is high enough. This is problem for both systems: membrane and 'fur'.

[@BenVallack]

@@inevespaceabsolutely, I get to the bottom of that in my next video. It's still a loose loose - if it's cool enough for vapour pressure differece you get condensation. If it's warm enough for similar temps you just get 100% RH on the inside so you get liquid sweat building up.

[@TheYoutubeUser69]

i was mindblown as a child when I learned rain does not mean 100% humidity :D

[@xTatsuran]

Also "waterproof" is actually "water resistant".

[@BenVallack]

@@xTatsuran Semantics. I remember when Paramo were dealing with people grumbling about them using the word waterproof. It seems to have blown over now that they have the 4 hour rain room test. I'm happy using the word if they are.

[@doghouseriley4732]

Bought one a long time ago. Cost the earth. From the first day, when it rained, I got wet. Wore it three times. The last time, I got soaked. I don't know whether it was faulty or simple didn't work but all I know is, I got wet and the coat cost a fortune. As for guarantees, well you can imagine how that worked out.

[@PoshByDefault]

Are you referring to a Goretex coat or the Helly Hansen coat that doesn't use Goretex? Your comment is ambiguous.

[@serkev]

@@PoshByDefault He's talking about the brand in this video

[@MrDkgio]

Weird, I’ve had a paramo for years and never got wet once, the fact that it pushes water from the inner layer to the outside. I’ve often worn my Paramo straight out of the washing machine, it feels bone dry in minutes. I previously had an expensive goretex coat, the first time it rained, I got sweat through, which feels much worse than being wet from the rain.

[@sdnalyam]

It all depends on the temperature and humidity. Example in jungle conditions only ponchos work. In warm conditions a combination of a windshell and Polartech Alpha direct works very well. If hiking , rucking hard then using a mesh base layer, Polartech Alpha direct and windshell with a synthetic puffy, used like a belay. jacket, over everything when static works very well. Natick Labs etc has done a lot of research into this as well as Mark Twight, read the book Extreme Alpinism.

[@benthespread]

I had a pair of Paramo trousers years ago and whenever it rained my legs felt soaking wet & whenever it was dry they were to hot to wear . The best way to view Gortex is as a windproof outer shell that'll keep you warm and keeps you dry in rain to a certain extent

[@brxee]

Bought a double layer ventile jacket from Hilltreck 15 or so years ago, still yet to let rain all the way through. Stops wind really well too and you just insulate accordingly with inner layers. Best jacket I've ever bought.

[@johannescarlsson4559]

Here, now it's rainy winter season upcoming. Some just give up and use the Tretorn rain coats. Just like rubber boots, it is very unsexy, but it keeps the water out without upkeep.

[@OverCowboy]

Yes! Hope to see more NikWax products available globally. I've never even seen a Paramo anywhere I buy, but I've been using NikWax liquids to improve water resistance of leather and clothing since about 2006. Going steady

[@PoshByDefault]

Why does the other top comment say the opposite to this? It says that this technology doesn't work and you will get soaked..

[@OverCowboy]

It works very well with leather boots. They stay dry for days in the water when stomping in swamps or streams. Snow and rocks damage it though, like in a day or two. With the cordura fadric boots and clothing it's as good as any DWR, but not as durable as PFC and not oil-resistant. It's beading and wicking water but not blocking it completely. So, you either need a membrane underneath or you need a wool/neoprene/polar fleece/coolmax/any other wicking and warm-when-wet material and you'll be ok for the most part. Nikwax does not need heat for activation and can be applied on both dry and wet material, so you can reproof in the field, that's a positive.

[@BenVallack]

@OverCowboy My next experiment is Nikwax treated socks with trekking sandals.

[@OverCowboy]

@@BenVallack Ok! Then, next I'd be drinking Nikwax to see if that reduces sweat induced condensation inside the garment during my workouts. Let's compare our results afterwards!

[@appuser]

It's like you pre-empted my need to get a new coat... I'll be checking them out. Thanks for the tip Ben! As always, making life work better.

[@donnyo65]

I have been a Paramo user for over 18 years and my original jacket (I have three) is still as comfortable in the rain as it was the day I bought it. I taught outdoor activities for 5 years and am now a cycling instructor in the UK. I will only use these when the weather is foul and have Skied in the French Alps at -26 degrees and cycled in a Scottish thunder storm and the jackets and trousers (I have two of those!) have done their job without fuss or worry. I have also used my oldest jacket to sail in and, although you can never stop the water coming into a jacket while sailing, the water is actively driven away from your body so it feels much more comfortable. There are negatives - they look really shabby very quickly and are now hideously expensive ( the new version of my first jacket is now over £600!!!!!!). I’m not sure I can afford to keep buying them now but I will keep using my current crop until they fall off my back!

[@grahamnewton4381]

I have used various Paramo clothing for over 20 years and it really is effective. After 20 years + the coat is as effective as when it was new and the winter trousers are still the best I have come across for all day wear in wet winter weather. I also have some lightweight ‘ordinary’ trousers which are excellent for warm weather. The only drawback for the waterproof clothing is that it is in the main too warm for summer which is when I use single layer Gortex ( or similar). The advice with Paramo is to re proof it frequently but I have not found this to be necessary with just the occasional re proofing being sufficient. For winter I would also recommend Buffalo tops which although not waterproof ( it’s a Pertex type outer with a thick fleece inner). It is best worn without a base layer and keeps you dry but allows sweat to disperse even in torrential rain, provided you keep moving. A thin waterproof top to put on if you stop for any length of time is advisable.

[@edpikestone6800]

Totally agree. I am a Paramo fan and have used their product for a long time. Also look at Ventile jackets as another alternative to GORE Tex. Ventile is a tight weave cotton that becomes waterproof as it gets wet. Take a look at Hilltrek (UK firm) as they specialise in it. Invented during WW2. I have a Ventile jacket and have been very impressed with it.

[@BenVallack]

Thanks! Yeah I did do some reading on Ventile and I do remember being interested. What kind of situations would you choose it over Paramo? Also, curious, were you an existing subscriber or is this the first video of mine?

[@88sstraight]

@@BenVallack Ventile is no longer an uncoated material, from what I’ve read it’s all produced in Switzerland these days and uses a DWR from the factory. It was invented before the war, for non-clothing purposes.

[@edpikestone6800]

@@BenVallack been a subscriber for about 2 years.

[@BenVallack]

@@88sstraightah that's interesting thanks

[@danceswithbadgers]

​@@88sstraightI believe they treat the fabric because consumers expect to see water bead off a jacket, having been conditioned to expect this by the use of DWR on plastic garments. Ventile was developed before such compounds existed and was supposed to work by getting wet. The older version of Ventile produced in Switzerland used the toxic PFC treatment but the organic version is treated with Nikwax DWR according to the brand which made my jacket. I have let this wear off and won't be renewing it as Ventile needs to absorb water in order to work. In prolonged heavy rain one won't be totally dry in either a Páramo or a Ventile garment but, having owned both I've sold ALL my Páramo stuff and am now solely using double Ventile without any unnecessary DWR. I also no longer own or want any Goretex or similar garments.

[@rayrayrayrayray79]

Finally! A person being honest about hiking rain jackets! I have spent a small fortune on hiking rain jackets and none of them keep me dry! I thought I was going mad!

[@Threat_LvL]

Get military stuff. Made for outdoor and a fieldtested

[@redesignedlife777]

most people say the best thing to use is a rain poncho.... you can still use your expensive jackets, but throw on a poncho on top of it to be really dry

[@Threat_LvL]

@redesignedlife777 yeah. Have fun swearing your ass off

[@andreiaustin4895]

I work in film/TV & when we make "rain" it's HEAVY! We're often in bad weather for > 10hours per day & often day after day. Paramo is the best I've come across & after 26 years of use, I'll stand by it, particularly as I've seen my colleagues suffer with other technologies. What I've found is you have to keep Paramo garments clean & I generally put my salopettes & Paramo bib top on, BEFORE I get wet & cold & I ZIP IT UP to trap my body heat & stop the ingress of rain. I can then rely on it to keep me warm & dry ALL DAY.

[@tim.w5630]

I also have a Paramo Alta III for winter time and I love it. But honestly, as soon as it gets over ~15°C outside, you just cannot handle the thick, warm and heavy fabric that is the nature of Analogy products. This is where I still use my ultra light GoreTex (packlite) jacket. It also seems that you have quite a lot of money to blow on waterproof jackets. Paramo solutions (and GoreTex Shakedry) hover around 300 to 400£, which is a notable sum considering GoreTex starts at around 180£ (with cheaper membrane products around the 100£ mark). Not everyone has the money to "buy into" Paramo products. I hope that with popularity they will get a bit more affordeable without sacrificing on labor conditions and the environment. Cheers!

[@MrGreenAKAguci00]

Yeah... let's hope that the processes get streamlined, economy of scale will kick in and the prices will drop.

[@BenVallack]

I consider Paramo to be cheaper than Gore-tex actually - the Helki was £240. I just had a quick look on Arctreyx and saw plenty of Gore-Tex coats £400-£500!

[@MrGreenAKAguci00]

@BenVallack my hardshell Saleva goretex jacket that saved my ass a bunch of times in rain during warmer months and wet snow mixed with rain or freezing rain in winter was 160 EUR. It kept me fairly dry too (although I do have good base layers etc.) even while skiing, hiking, or riding a bike. I was just on the Paramo website their cheapest jacket is 320 EUR. Does it deliver twice the performance?

[@TheShortStory]

@@MrGreenAKAguci00it might last twice as long, with proper maintenance. But that depends on your use I imagine

[@justinw1765]

@@TheShortStory Keep in mind you also have to factor in the more frequent Nikwax treatments, because it is the least durable of the DWR's/hydrophobic coatings. That equals a greater expense in both money and time. Thankfully I like to think for myself, think outside of boxes, and came up with a solution that is better than all the commercial solutions I've tried so far. If you go to "newest comments" first, you should see my thoroughly outlined solution. Took some definite thought and experimentation. But not only does it work, it works extremely well.

[@max_pin]

I'm not having much luck getting one of these shipped to the US. I'm surprised that they don't seem to have a US distributor.

[@BenVallack]

Yeah I did wonder if they'd be hard to get over there. Maybe just a question of getting enough demand to make it worth soreone's while getting a bunch imported.

[@Busterblade20]

​​@@BenVallackNor they shipped to Colombia. Which comes to me as a surprise given that their coats are made in Colombia and the name Paramo is pretty much inspired by Colombia's Páramos.

[@BenVallack]

Ah yeah that's really frustating isn't it!

[@redesignedlife777]

it's only popular in certain regions. USA has too many big brands to the point where many other brands have a hard time getting a piece of the pie. Even Mountain Equipment brand is hard to find in usa.

[@bogorad]

Some of their distributors ship to the US with no problem.

[@MexieMex]

How often do you need to reapply the coating, and what's the cost to do that?

[@BenVallack]

Depends really how much you use it - I'm actually not out in the rain that much so I get away with probably once a year. If I was wearing them more though I'd be happy doing at 2 or 3 times per year. It's about £3 per treatment if you use the Tech Wash to wash first then the TX Direct after.

[@MexieMex]

@@BenVallack thanks

[@lucasfunkt]

@@BenVallack Perhaps a short video showing how to do this would be useful?

[@purplelord8531]

as someone who doesn't sweat all that much, I actually find that a combination of an umbrella and a waterproof (like an old rubbery raincoat) jacket are best - I hope people consider this, because these options seem to be dwindling. Even my 'vintage brand' coat uses this material mostly for aesthetics, as the chain is not properly sealed and the hood does not protect the face. Your skin is not meant to be completely dry in any case - rain is uncomfortable because it is cold afaik. For everyday use (not wearing for a full day/intense activity regularly) I believe the old style of coat is the best. the maintenance factor is really the thing that drives me away from these coats - to hear that I will have to reapply the water repellant is frustrating. I do wish I could find that style of hood on other coats though!

[@BenVallack]

Yeah I do think there is mileage in this kind of idea. I actually got a waxed cotton Barbour based on this idea. It was ok in a lot of situations but the fabric randomly tore just after the warranty expired so I've turned my back on them now!

[@Yamatification]

Australian and New Zealand armies which both operate in native and pacific rainforests, both use tactical umbrellas. Basically camouflaged short umbrellas as quick position rain cover or cover when on marches where sweat makes raincoats pointless

[@Shaadea]

I figure an umbrella combined with an old style waterproof poncho for max ventilation should do the trick very well. The umbrella might also provide shade when it's very sunny, so 2 applications when trailing. And let's not talk about the costs...

[@Demon-default]

Jack wolfskin cost me £300. Three and one jacket called Romberg the hood on it is not far off what you’re asking for.

[@Yorkshiremadmick]

I’ve had paramo fleeces shirts, trousers and coats for 30years. The first Fleece still going strong. Worth noting that if you have a wet coat and put the other fleece over the top. It will pump the water out.

[@damiene9563]

Bought my first Paramo Analogy jacket over 16 years ago. This was after delivering an IT course to some guys from the British Mountaineering Society. I did a lot of walking and needed a new coat. They told me they all wore Paramo…never bought a goretex jacket since.

[@tanvach]

I really wish we can more easily get Paramo products in the US. I've heard about their jackets for a while now, but have to wait until I visit the UK in the future to buy one.

[@tim.w5630]

And in Switzerland (and rest of europe) please. I only got my Paramo because we went to England for a month. They should scale up their distribution capabilities asap

[@gmckayak]

Been wandering the Scottish mountains for decades and we have a lot of rain plus it's mild in spring and autumn. Paramo has been my go-to top layer. I've tried many others but they never deliver as well.

[@vojtakliner7605]

Any experience with how it works with a backpack? I mean, the water problem in the shoulder straps area, or the back contact places with the backpack etc., is it leaking a lot? Just looking for a new jacket, ideally without a membrane but highly hydrophobic; this looks very nice.

[@hb6846]

I do find myself getting wet in areas under contact like rucksack shoulder straps over a long period of time. It does depend on the straps and the padding holding moisture plus the weight of that pack pushing it through the coat. Also you need to keep on top of your dwr proofing

[@willadams6217]

Yeah, when it does fail it usually goes through the strap contact areas first in my experience. 70% of the time in the UK outdoors Paramo will keep you drier than an membrane, but when it's really wet then a membrane keeps you drier, when Paramo fails it does so quite dramatically.

[@MagPencho]

I simply love it when people use their heads and evaluate reality and don’t base their opinions on marketing! Outstanding job with this video! ❤

[@BenVallack]

Thanks so much!

[@TrailHunger]

will the paramo with when you're hiking with a backpack? i reckon that the shoulders where the straps are will get soaked pretty fast?

[@jbfCanada]

I have had Goretex jackets, and when brand new they worked quite well. However, over time (months to a year or two) they become less and less water proof/resistant. If you frequently treat them with a repellant the water proofing does improve, but I can't say I wanted to be treating my coat every few months. In a big downpour, or riding a bike in heavy rain, they don't seem to keep me very dry

[@krimke881]

There's a sentence in english, that explains waterproofing and it goes like this. "..you simply suggest for the droplets to take another path.." This is what water proofing is.

[@aatj]

Have you tried waxed cotton clothing for outdoor waterproofing?

[@BenVallack]

I did try a Barbour. It tore just after the warranty expired so that was that! Also I would say it's as breathable as a plastic bag even when not raining!

[@aatj]

@@BenVallack Right: I use a waxed cotton brimmed hat, but that's the extent of it. I'll try one of these coats,

[@danceswithbadgers]

​​@@BenVallackI agree, waxed cotton jackets are sweat factories! I have a nice waxed fedora by Failsworth and a couple of their waxed cotton flat caps, and some waxed cotton gaiters to protect my Ventile trousers from damage but that's it for my waxed cotton gear these days.

[@pr0faker]

Thats great and all, but I think the minute you wear something like a backpack, you will push rain water through on the shoulders etc, where you get pressure on the jackets fabric. So great for short walks without gear, but everything else, fishing, hiking, cycling with small backpack, will make it fail pretty much from the getgo. If you really need to be dry, use an actual raincoat, and set up or go to someplace dry because it will condensate in there ofcourse. But the moment its dry again or you get out of the rain you can take that off and be pretty much dry.

[@marcusevans5014]

Rab with their Pertex and Nikwax coatings is another way to deal with the inclement weather issue. Here in the UK I’ve found a soft shell jacket treated with Nikwax wash in waterproofer will provide almost an hour of water resistance at a steady 2mm downpour rate. It’s about assessing your need as in most situations you wouldn’t spend that much time out in the open or have the opportunity to seek some shelter. I’m relating these comments to probably the majority who are out hiking in average conditions throughout the year.

[@alangauld6079]

I have 2 Paramo jackets, one heavier and longer for everyday use and when i'm out on a photography trip and one lightweight one for hiking and backpacking. in both cases I find they keep me dry for about 2 hours of heavy rain(definitely not 4 hours!), beyond that they gradually let in more and more water. But in practice thats no worse than my Goretex jacket with trapped moisture inside. And in typical UK showery weather Paramo wins for fast drying and comfort. The other big advantage of Paramo is that if you tear or puncture them(on barbed wire or thorns say) it doesn't affect the waterproofing, with Goretex a punctured/torn membrane means a leak. And you can repair torn Paramo with a normal needle and thread, no ugly duct tape required!.

[@jadam42]

So do their coats not use PFAS chemicals?

[@jadam42]

Nm, you answered at the end of the video.

[@BenVallack]

Thanks for watching to the end!

[@Mr.D.Michael]

So what's the name of this coat/ jacket? Thanks

[@krisswegemer1163]

Thanks for this video. I learned a lot.

[@funkymoped8955]

I do love my Paramo jacket and for all the reasons you state. It is far more comfortable than Gore-Tex especially when working hard on an uphill slog. I still get damp doing this but it's not that clammy feeling you get with lined jackets. Only thing to note,if you run warm(as I do)the jacket is too warm for summer use. But hey, keeping dry in summer isn't as critical as other times of the year,wear no jacket, you'll soon dry off👍🏻.

[@betterdays3249]

Paramo are good but run a bit too warm for most of the summer months and a fair bit of spring and autumn too. Definately good water management system, far preferable to membrane systems. My workhorse jacket is my Fjallraven Skogso with greenland wax. Its not really waterproof in anything beyond a shower but it is very quick drying, very breathable and when combined with the right layers it allows my to dry out very quickly. My layering sstem is based on the PCU system. I think its been pointed out that there is no prefect sytem for all conditions but, so far, for me, the Fjallraven with PCU layering is my preferred system as it offers the most flexibility ande utility in the widest range of conditions.

[@HealthyHomeGuide]

Does anyone know of any brands available in the US that use NikWax Analogy fabric?

[@DukeandDrummond]

Hello Ben - how do you think this would do in the snow instead of the rain?

[@photooutdoor2574]

I have two Paramo Jackets and I love to use them in Temperatures under 12°C. I wish they would make an ultralight version for warmer conditions.

[@BenVallack]

Yeah they are warm - I guess when you mimic animal fur that's going to be a bit of an issue!

[@chablos2831]

The best rain coats are made of dyneema but they cost a ton. It's not toxic unlike goretex is and it doesn't need any dwr.

[@tacul9333]

How often do you have to refresh the fabric with Nikwax products?

[@keypult2964]

please tell me what exactly is the name of this model?

[@BenVallack]

Helki

[@lesleywillis6177]

I’m new to this sort of thing. I think a fully waterproof poncho is probably better than all of these materials. It keeps out 100% of the water and ventilates fro below. If you do get a bit hot you can swish it out. Comments please?

[@BenVallack]

Agree in principle but haven't tried one - downsides are style and behaviour in wind I think!

[@lesleywillis6177]

@@BenVallack I agree about the wind but you obviously don’t know me if you mention style!😂.

[@datacipher]

Great for walking in easy places but try mountaineering or bushwhacking the Canadian Rockies with one. 😂

[@peterk9337]

The jacket he is talking about, retails on the website for $450, must of just missed that point. You get what you pay for. A lot of people can’t afford that.

[@BenVallack]

That sounds way off - I paid £240 for mine. Definitely not unusual for decent outdoor gear and especially reasonable value for something that lasts over 20 years.

[@theeverydaybowhunter]

@@petermitchell7851 looks like? But does it have the same material?

[@snesleywipessqueegeeservices]

Hmm. How is 'directionality' different to 'direction'?

[@brianmccarthy1322]

West coast Salish people wore hats and capes made from cedar. Kept them as dry as needed for survival and theybprobably smelled good too.

[@greggie111]

If Nikwax is the secret sauce, can I just get a can of that, spray it on any old rain shell and get the same result?

[@BenVallack]

The inner layer material is actually the bit that does the work. It's called the 'pump liner'. It's construction does something clever when the fibres become hydrophobic.It's not just a case of making the outer face fabric resist the water (which is what dwr does on goretex coats and isn't enough to make the coat water proof).

[@roaduser6438]

I've used nikwax today put a DWR finish on a Berghaus Fleece. Pretty damn effective in light rain.

[@RogerEvans-dx4cs]

This is my experience. I bought a RAB Latok jacket in 2013. It was totally rainproof for a couple of years. Then I started on the washing/ reproofing regime which works but I found not for long. I have G1000 trousers which use Greenland wax for water proofing. I tried the wax on one part of my Latok jacker. No problems, so I waxed the entire jacket. I can take a garden watering can and spray the water on the jacket, no water ingress. I recently was in high wind driven snow, it just bounced off the jacket. Yes, it has probably affected the breathability, but I don't use the jacket in warm temperatures, and any sweating is mostly eliminated by opening the armpit zippers. Incidentally the jacket still looks almost a 100% new after 11 years with only small cuff wear.

[@Cyberowaty]

It's fascinating what you discovered, I'm considering buying a Rab jacket without the Gore-Tex membrane and using your wax method. When you applied the wax, did you just rub it in or did you also heat it? Did the jacket change color or become stiffer after such treatment? I also wonder how my Rab Borealis would behave after such a wax treatment

[@RogerEvans-dx4cs]

@Cyberowaty Hi there: First, I did one panel at a time, e.g., the hood, two sleeves, etc. Then, after applying the wax, first one direction, then the opposite direction to give an even coating, I took a hair dryer on middle heat setting ( this depends on your hair dryer settings and power ) and directed the heat from about 6 inches and waving the dryer from side to side. When you apply the wax you get white streaks but as the heat melts the wax the streaks disappear. To avoid overheating the eVent material and the membrane put your fingers next to the area that you are heating. If you can't leave your fingers there you are either too hot on the heat setting or too close. The idea is to have enough heat just to melt the wax. The jacket was slightly darker, slightly stiffer, that's all. The jacket doesn't breathe very much now but I don’t mind that. For summer use just wash the jacket in warm water and the wax melts and disappears, and then waterproof with a commercial product if you find the jacket too hot. I don't know about your Borealis, try a small section that you can't see or doesn't matter too much. It takes a lot longer to write down than to do it! Good luck, Roger

[@Cyberowaty]

@@RogerEvans-dx4cs ❤

[@rpenm]

I've wondered for years why Paramo doesn't sell to the US market and why Nikwax doesn't sell Analogy fabric to US outdoor gear brands.

[@BenVallack]

Yeah I think they're actually quite a small company and maybe they're at the point that to do that would mean new factories etc that they just don't want to get involved with (just my assessment, I might be totally wrong).

[@FT4Freedom]

Goretex wets out for sure. I do treat my gtx with a rain repellent and treat it prior to a trip. But I find that gtx does not wick water inwards. If I'm wearing a synthetic or wool liner, the mid layer tends to stay relatively dry, although a bit humid. Then the gtx dries and breathes relatively quickly during shelter and fire. My body heat will dry my clothing as well. I can see the vapor rising off my gtx. Knowing your system is key. I grew up in the PNW. Underarm zips, chest zips, side zips, are excellent for perspiration management.

[@mukkaar]

Just always think if you actually need technical hard shell jacket. These will never actually keep you dry with tons of rain when active, they will keep you warm when combined with layers. For me, non-breathable very basic cheap rain suit is thing I use for my bikepacking for example. I don't do these trips when it gets cold, so I can always just wear something that can keep me bit warm when wet, like merino under layer along with maybe extremely thin jacket to just block some wind. It's all you need when you are active. On other hand cheap basic impenetrable rain suit is just best when in camp or town. thing I actually use for biking is rain covers for shoes, other than that I'm wet. Overall, do you actually need to be be shielded from rain when on move? I would argue where hardshells shine is wet snow, in winter conditions. Or just as jacket for your city life. And as far as I know this is pretty much what it was made for.

[@jonathanireland2913]

I have come around to the warm and wet style of hiking, especially in colder weather.. I more often wear a fleece with a Primaloft insulated jacket over the top. It just has DWR and no membrane, it gets wet through but the insulation keeps me warm, and the fleece dries quickly if you are moving

[@mukkaar]

@jonathanireland2913 I mean you do get wet with normal rain jacket too from sweat if you move a lot. But the point is to just keep the rain away as best as possible so it doesn't sap your warmth. Or lets say you are doing something in camp or something in heavy rain, you don't want to get wet because you are not moving and since it doesn't breathe well, it keeps you warm too. Ofc, you should have one that has ventilation holes

[@SpudUna]

Gave up trying to stay dry ages ago. No I just wear clothing under my chosen outer layer that keeps you warm when wet. That’s any man made fibre base layer and either a Montane Protium hoodie or Paramo Bento fleece. And recently a Simms SolarFlex hoodie. The Simms hoodie performs brilliantly. Though expensive.

[@lindsaygoodwin3140]

What is in coating, though?

[@dosgos]

Over time, all of my winter jackets seemed to lose their ability to repel water. I suspect that is because a waterproof spray coating fails over time with washing and exposure to rain. The "breathable membrane" material doesn't seem to fail. Nonetheless, the jackets become sopping messes. Not 100% sure what was happening.

[@BenVallack]

Yeah the impact of face fabric DWR failing seems to be pretty serious. I do wonder if it's things like seems and de-lamination that goes on as well. The problem with the membrane approach is that a single failure anywhere on the jacket can have a pretty serious impact!

[@daviddemmers130]

I hate the fact that you have to DWR them often to keep them waterproof. Where a membrane jacket can wet-out but it will keep you dry if you are only mildy active. Where if you dont have the upkeep right on the paramo jackets you are just wearing any old jacket that will soak you if wearing in the rain.

[@davef5916]

Goretex jackets like Arcteryx also require a lot of upkeep to maintain their efficacy over time.

[@daviddemmers130]

@@davef5916 maybe one wash per season / year of use. Depending on the person and use.

[@seekyeefirstforsound]

Was looking at buying one but realised it doesn’t ship to Singapore. Would love to get one if possible.

[@nosatellites7218]

Great vid. I'm now considering buying a Paramo rain jacket. Only problem is, I live in Germany. Are they only available in the UK? Also, I can't find anything in Amazon for Paramo jackets.

[@ianrobertson1667]

Weight is a really important consideration for hikers, runners etc. How does the weight of the Analogy technology compare to Gore-Tex?? My hunch is they are super heavy?

[@BenVallack]

They have some quite light ones actually these days - the Velez is 600g. It's definitely a bit heavier though - but than means it's better at insulating in colder temps too (but of course that could be a negative in warmer temps too).

[@AndrewJOliver]

Hydrostatic head is badly used in tents too. A totally pointless metric for a coat or a fly sheet. It makes some sense in ground sheets where the pressure from weight above the groundsheet forces water up from wet ground below, but it’s not really mentioned there.

[@bogorad]

I've been wearing Paramo (Cascada) exclusively since I first got it in 2011.

[@74357175]

Does this mean you can't wear them while wearing a backpack/gear? I.e. it will wet out at points of contact?

[@BenVallack]

I think that is a common complaint - but a lot of their coats have reinforced shoulders to resist this as much as possible.

[@DragoniteMotoJP]

80mph on my motorcycle, would you trust nikwax over a conventional rain coat?

[@BenVallack]

Definitely not heh

[@HappyOrwell]

so it's kinda a very water wicking fabric? Is it similar to how wool is water repelant? I'm trying out a waxed canvas jacket for a kinda more durable, less synthetic water resistant pollution, unfortunantly they're not breathable. Thanks for mentioning this, haven't heard of Paramo jackets, but I have heard of Nik Wax

[@dfgdfg_]

The jacket in the video is the HELKI

[@hermitgreenn]

TL;DW Nikwax already sells a wash-in DWR coating that you apply to your clothes whether they're a membrane or not - you NEED to do this periodically to keep your garment water-resistant to where water beads off the face fabric. Paramo just ditches the membrane part and leans into the DWR.

[@tullochgorum6323]

Paramo does offer all the qualities claimed here and for some use-cases it's much the best option. But it also has limitations which he didn't mention. First, It's bulky it's warm, and it's HEAVY. If it's mostly going to be in your pack, it's a burden. And it's really too warm for summer use. They do make lighter versions but they're not nearly as effective. So the use case is restricted to scenarios where it's cold and there is a high likelihood of rain so it won't be in your pack. Second, although it's pretty effective, in exceptionally severe conditions it can become overwhelmed. Not an issue if you're walking the dog, but potentially life-threatening in remote and exposed terrain. And third, it requires regular washing and reproofing - which is a pain in the neck, and isn't practical on longer treks. So what's the alternative, if you want something that's light, packs small, can be used year-round and can handle the very worst conditions? The answer is ventilation, which is what we all used before the advent of Gore-tex. This means light and reliable garments of impermeable fabrics like silnylon and silpoly that are cut to allow air to circulate. Sadly, the profits to be made from overhyped jackets in exotic fabrics means that these simple and inexpensive designs have gone out of fashion, so you have to resort to specialised suppliers like Packa Ponchos, or run up something from a pattern - google "Roger Caffin Mountain Poncho" for an example of what I mean. Paired with the Brynje technical mesh base layer, these vented jackets will keep you dry and safe in the widest range of conditions.

[@BenVallack]

Completely agree. Actually moving towards this kind of setup.

[@BenVallack]

I will just say that the Helki does actually pack down i to its own pocket - looks like it's smaller when packed than the Packa poncho.

[@tullochgorum6323]

@@BenVallack On the other hand, the Helki weighs as much as my tarp and bivvy combined! The Velez is even heavier.. Plus I've heard to many stories of Paramos being overwhelmed in wind-driven rain. I walk in all weathers and this is a risk I don't want to take. For me, the Packa is a bit too heavy and over-engineered - I only mentioned it because it's commercially available. I prefer the Caffin Mountain Poncho, which weighs in at under 200g. But you have to make it yourself, or get someone to run it up for you. It vents well. It doesn't flap in the wind. It keeps your pack dry. And you can put it on without taking off your pack - which is a big plus in my book. But I run sweaty, so I get damp whatever shell I wear. And obviously that's not ideal in wet-cold. I've found that the key is to keep cold water away from my skin. The foundation of the system is the Brynje technical mesh - transformational bit of kit. I cap that with a lightweight base layer with a 1/3 zip so i can dump heat quickly. Then an Alpha fleece. For persistent rain I'll add a featherlight rain shirt, and then my shell. The mesh traps warm air by my skin. The base layer and Alpha wick away the sweat. And the wind shirt traps the moisture against the shell surprisingly effectively. In over half a century of experimentation, this is the system that's worked best for me. Outstanding channel, by the way. I've only recently found it, and I'm a fan.

[@deancuk]

Thanks for the video. So this is just a spray on waxing layer that is hydrophobic. Could you not apply that to any jacket? I have seen numerous hydrophobic sprays in my local outdoors stores so what makes Paramore jackets suited and uniqely positioned to apply this spray? I have a Fjallraven jacket, that I apply wax to once a year which has the same affect too using their G1000 fabric.

[@BenVallack]

Paramo works in a bit of a different way - it's makes fibres hydrophobic not a waxy layer - and it's not just the outer fabric that the hydrophobic coating works on. It's the individual fibres of the liner too - which then work like animal fur to move liquid water away from your skin. Things like greenland wax on G1000 just create a waxed layer like waxed cotton - this blocks water more or less from both directions simply through creating a layer of wax. This is the way I understand it at least!

[@daniellower72]

Good review I'm thinking now it's meant to work a system. Probably why so many are getting mixed results. I've just bought a Paramo Pajaro but am now going to look at buying a base layer from them as well. Probably why mountaineers do so well they get a kit bundle from Paramo. I'm thinking the hydrophobic effect to work properly requires the appropriate skin underneath otherwise if you block the bi-directional process there's no point it'll be as if the jacket isn't doing anything.

[@snorttroll4379]

what about using ptfe fibres to make it hydrophobic?

[@BenVallack]

ptfe fibres sounds like an absolute health disaster.

[@snorttroll4379]

@@BenVallack they ae re inert. only problem is during manufactue re, which has been fixed

[@kimberlyhuynh5487]

What is your raincoat called?

[@BenVallack]

Helki

[@walrus10001]

Paramo. Yea! 3 coats, 2 pair of trousers, 15 years plus and as good as new. Well apart from a few barbed wire injuries. However that damage makes no difference to performance.

[@KNURKonesur]

How does that compare to a Buffalo with Pertex?

[@BenVallack]

I think they are more for really cold and wet situations. They keep you warm even when wet, and are designed to be worn next to skin. I don't think they claim to have any directional behaviour. Less practical as an everyday coat if you have to be naked under it!

[@tyrantwitness2482]

Had Gore-Tex and Paramo, now for serious winter walking I use Buffalo systems! No reproofing required! Expensive? Yes all outdoor gear seems expensive these days, but at least this clothing really works and is lightweight. Paramo soaks up water and gets heavy. Buffalo does get a bit heavier, but soon drys out while you walk. As they have advertised, dry within 15 minutes of being totally submerged in water. Oh and Nikwax is expensive and doesn't last long in my experience. I do like Paramo's fleece jacket! I have had it now for over 25 years and still in good condition.

[@AtomToast]

With the thin goretex coat, I remember you mentioning how bad of an idea a backpack would be. I assume these have no problem with that?

[@BenVallack]

In terms of durability these will be fine, but there is the potential for water to squeezed through under the straps. How much of an issue that is I'm not really sure as I don't do much backpacking!

[@zab666]

Really well made video, Ben! I was wondering how quickly those jackets are drying. For multi day hikes this could potentially be an issue if it's still wet in the morning. Other than that, it's a fascinating technology I wish I knew about before buying a rather expensive gore tex jacket.

[@antine1279]

Apparently very fast to dry

[@zmuzzy101]

I love my shakedry jacket for cycling and haven't found anything better or even comparable but I coulf be swayed towards paramo for hiking where getting so hot isnt as big a factor and lightness is the main downside for me. My current hiking raincoat is a non breathable single skin jacket by frogg toggs called the Xtreme Light. Its brilliant as an extremely lightweight emergency rain protection and is like a much less breathable shake dry.

[@BenVallack]

Yeah Shakedry is very cool. I think the Paramo and Shakdry combo is a versatile pair. I sold all the old coats I had hanging around to justify the Helki so I'm left with the Paramo, Shakedry and a down jacket (the black one seen in some of the vids I did recently, it was about £20 on Vinted!). The issue with the down jacket is we often have wet and cold weather in the UK so I think I'd like to get the Paramo insulator that is designed to be worn over the top of the normal paramo and it doesn't matter if it gets wet.

[@peetsnort]

The only way is to use a soft fabric thats bendable. Then get the roof tile method of lots of fabric panels sewn on . This obviously will work best standing upright. But at least its breathable when working or hiking.YET if you are at rest the tilies will rest downwards and shed the water Edit. I forgot to mention a waxing or lanolin wipe on occasionally when dry.like preening

[@martin.feuchtwanger]

Sounds like a good theory. Do such jackets exist?

[@jinglemyberries866]

Try a Brynje mesh baselayer under this jacket.

[@BenVallack]

Have one ready to do just that when it gets a bit colder!

[@jinglemyberries866]

@@BenVallack Oh, nice!!

[@grizzkid795]

I've been using waterproof breathable jackets for 40 years and have come to the conclusion there is no such thing.

[@Wastelander13]

Exactly.

[@silverarrow2558]

Thanks for sharing ... i had never heard of them... whilst wax jackets are completely different in terms of construction its a similar type of waterproofing methodology the need to re proof is probably why its a niche market as peopke tend to be lazy ..

[@Mark..P]

Really well explained. 🙏

[@gentlemanfinn86]

Maybe I missed it. What is your height/weight and which size are you wearing in the video? I’m ordering from outside uk, so I’d like to get the size right. Thanks

[@BenVallack]

Approx 6'1, 180kg - size Large. cheers!

[@chairmandictatorxijinping8905]

You mean 180lbs; not kg surely?

[@hallstewart]

Designers could combine robust non breathables on contact areas with shake dry panels on non contact areas. I mean, your rucksack is not breathable so it’s pointless having breathable fabric on your back.

[@ragnardanneskjold7259]

Paramo doesn't seem to make a tactical hoodie, which I need for thr velcro patches and extra pockets. Though I like the breathable/water resistant technology better than Gortex. And Paramo seems to be grossly overpriced for what you get.

[@AndrewHelgeCox]

Are there any animal products in the nikwax coating?

[@BenVallack]

Not that I've ever heard of.

[@AndrewHelgeCox]

@@BenVallack I can check for myself I guess

[@F1Barry]

Having used goretex, when you are continually wet, goretex doesn't work and you get wet from your own sweat.

[@allthegearuk]

Do you know the English company Buffalo? they make similar stuff for serious outdoor activities. I don't think they would be suitable for everyday use they don't look very good on the street.

[@BenVallack]

Yeah if I was actually out on mountains etc I'd give them a go.

[@Clambelly]

It all depends on how hard it is raining, how hard you are exerting yourself, and for how long. If you want to stay completely dry, get a rubber slicker the type used for offshore commercial fishing. Yes, you will sweat and get clammy inside, but you won't get soaked and fish slime and saltwater won't penetrate. Step up to Goretex offshore sailing gear, incredibly durable and keep you dry in a severe storm, but too heavy to hike in. The problem with raingear designed for hiking, biking or running is that the gear is going to be a compromise, and not entirely waterproof AND completely dry on the inside for too long. Not if you are exerting a lot of energy and doing so in the rain.

[@rmschindler144]

so we have a promising new waterproof approach, based on a wash-in Nikwax product . I like it . I wonder - for those who know - if Nikwax’s stuff is good for the environment (I’m hoping it is) (- I mean, does it have any of those ‘forever chemicals’ or anything else that concerns us?)

[@BenVallack]

Yeah it's PFC-free and biodegradable!

[@tobias-edwards]

Great video! Love the editing. When you mention the harm in producing Gore Text products (toxic waste, affected water supply, factory problems, etc.) it would be good to add links/pics to the video to support your claim :)

[@BenVallack]

Thanks! I just got that from the Wikipedia page: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gore-Tex

[@andrashavas]

Very well said. BUT: Nikwax proofing is not the industry standard unfortunately. It has better competitors.... Second, you can wax a sweater with Nikwax or any other product and stand in the water sprinkler. The water pressure is minimal and water will roll off. Nice that Nikwax actually made a jacket. I would however ask them what type of proofing they use on their jacket? Because if you use Nikwax either you overdo it and will have big splotches of wax or it will not perform. If you iron it and the wax is soaked in, the only time you will notice the wax is when you move. It will come out at the cracks in the fabric. Otherwise if you use so little that it does not show up, it will not keep rain out for long. The raindrop on your shoulder will just seep in. So what a polar sweater does is that its fabric is fuzzy and keeps water literally outside on the threads. Heat and air is inside. Water dries. The new jacket has a very smooth surface. Water sits there, no air, no heat. Water seeps in.

[@chillen]

I'm not sure I am understanding your statement at 0:55 "[Gore-Tex] blocks liquid water nomatter which way it's going. Meaning it can't let sweat and condensation out in the same way it can't let rain in". However, the the arrow of transpiration displayed seems to contradict that statement. Is the reason for this solely that the sweat is not solely liquid water but also water vapor, and therefore it might get trapped? Thanks!

[@BenVallack]

Yeah, vapour can pass but not liquid. But for vapour to pass you need the right conditions, which is not realistic.

[@fastandcurious]

Mmh, I love the textile tech, but... they are really expensive and they don't have any sizes larger than XXL

[@BenVallack]

Cheap compared to Gore-tex gear!

[@123BV8]

No PFAS!

[@RC-qf3mp]

I have a heavy duty poncho/cape, which i can open up for airing out, and it has vent holes. I can hike in all-day rain for weeks.

[@BenVallack]

Yeah I reckon that is a good approach for ongoing situations like that!

[@davemitas]

I once read a comment/reply posted on a forum: "The best raincoat you can buy is an umbrella"😂. To that end, my sketch book got a couple pages dedicated to toying with a coat that aired like an umbrella. Coats hang by gravity on shoulders and back unless you are a sailor on a trapeze. How bout a suitable material ( 3d airated foam?/ 3d plastic wire lattice?) around shoulders, upper back and hood to create an air gap, then maybe a battery fan to push moist air out of poncho style vents?

[@RC-qf3mp]

@@davemitas umbrellas are good for non windy conditions and to protect from sun, but no good in windy downpours.

[@davemitas]

@RC Yep. 100% agree on umbrella, hence the idea of air gap coat. Of course I'm just focusing on the moist warm air egress, the waterproofness from rain is its own issue. Rate of excersion is also key. Here's my current modus operandi: I've given up skiing in anything other than bluebird sunshine and whilst I still wear water proof pants in the morning for sitting on the potentially icy chairlift, by lunch I ski in cheap hoody and slick outer track pants so if I do fall(virtually never), snow doesn't stick, therefore stays dry. This combo doesn't stop me sweating, but within minutes I'm feeling totally dry for my next run!

[@datacipher]

Great for walking but try mountaineering or bushwhacking the Canadian Rockies with one. 😂

[@dpurssord]

Tried Keela?

[@BenVallack]

Funnily enough I had one when I was about 16 doing Duke Of Edinburgh - not since then though. What are they up to these days?

[@alimantado373]

For sports Goretex is best because it lets you breathe, if your hiking youre hardly sweating. It all depends what you are using the jacket for. Im a Biker and I have Goretex in my shoes too. Dry and comfy. PS: Goretex is not claimed to be totally waterproof.

[@djayjp]

Vessi is better. It's not a coating, it's permanent, is breathable, and allows sweat out. No PFAS (forever chemicals).

[@BenVallack]

No PFAs in Paramo or its treatment.

[@Dogo.R]

See the fortnine video comparing waterproofing materials for breathability and waterproofing. I prefer d-dry based on that test suite. Edit after watching the video: Yah I get the desire to have tests that allow active pumping materials be able to be tested. Though to be fair if we really want the best performance we would wear ponchos with very large baffles that allow us to turn away from the rain and lift them to release the hot air every now and then. But that results in an insanely unfashionable thing, at least in most current cultures. As for what that poncho should be made of I beleive much more in full membrains than active pumping since a poncho with baffles overlaps heavily with the problems active pumping helps mitigate, yet is way better at them. Vs the problem of heavy hard wind and rain which active pumping is weak to and membranes are alot better at.

[@BenVallack]

Yeah he's just doing the same kind of test on them that the manufacturers do. I.e testing waterproofness in a situation unlike any kind of real life environment (we don't need pressure resitance) and then testing breathability when it's not actually raining. My next video looks at this issue in more detail but these tests don't represent comfort in the rain at all. They are good for testing breathability when it's not raining though which is not insignificant, especially for situations like biking gear so it's still useful but I'm coming at it from a different direction. In fact motorbikes might be one of the few situations where waterproofness under pressure might be a useful metric!

[@inevespace]

@@BenVallack rain with wind is common. Static pressure test looks suitable for such scenario (30mph wind is not something extraordinary). Also an important aspect demonstrated by this test is how you feel when seat on a wet surface.

[@BenVallack]

@@inevespace I don't think wind in a real life situation would ever force liquid into the material much though, it will just blow it away because it isn't held in a fixed volume. Sitting on a wet surface is definitaley relevant though and absolutely one of Paramo's weaknesses!

[@GmailNexus]

I think the pressure gets important once you plan on wearing a Backpack above the jacket

[@davemitas]

Yep Nexus.

[@drxym]

Lot of weatherproof clothing uses PFC / PFAS / forever chemicals which are a serious pollution concern since they don't biodegrade and instead accumulate in the food chain. Paramo has rejected using those chemicals so they should be applauded for that.