Designing the Bard Class for Shadowdark RPG!

We hit the $750,000 stretch goal for the Shadowdark RPG Kickstarter, so we're designing two new classes for the game!
This video is about designing the bard, a class that has changed enormously from its first implementation in AD&D 1e to its current form in 5E. What's going to happen with the Shadowdark bard? Well... I really can't guess!
During this livestream, we'll go through the process of the bard's design and find our way forward on one of fantasy TTRPG's most "historically varied" classes. Input and ideas from the chat will be essential, so please chime in!
Once the design is tested and polished, I'll turn this into a finished PDF that gets shared with all Kickstarter backers.
🔥 Download for the bard's (and ranger's) current version (V1-2): www.dropbox.co...
We already completed the ranger class design a couple weeks ago. Check out the livestream replay here: • Designing the Ranger C...
🦇 The fully-funded Shadowdark RPG Kickstarter is now OPEN FOR LATE PLEDGES: www.kickstarte...

[@testtest648]

Neat. Agreed that bards should not be full spellcasters.

[@cameronmaas2644]

This! I love the solution of them being able to use all scrolls or wands though. I’ve always wanted a class that was like that

[@epee11c]

Super fun! Also, this bard does the D&D movie bard far better than D&D does it! 😂

[@robertwinslade3104]

Love this interpretation of a bard, and that art is also amazing! The 5e Bard feels more like an update of the old school Illusionist class, with a musical flavour tacked on. I wouldn't say no to a Shadowdark Illusionist class, but it doesn't fit what i think of as a Bard, while this fits it like a glove!

[@Lowe505]

im a old kook from the 70s and found your channel and new game and i gotta say its the only rpg that has that old school flavor i like. Great job.

[@michaelmorrissey8983]

Great job Kelsey! I love watching your process. Kudos for keeping the ShadowDark Bard a learned, knowledge based class rooted to the historical Welsh and Irish Bards. They still work in a Fantasy setting without being outrageously OP skill whores as in 5E, brilliant!

[@daelusraine2989]

I'm now in love with the term "skill whore". Thank you for your contribution to the table's lexicon

[@michaelmorrissey8983]

@@daelusraine2989 You are MOST welcome! hahahaha!

[@blackshard641]

43:35 "Plaaaaayyyyy the best sooooong in the world. Or I'll eat your soul."

[@MrSteveK1138]

"The devil went down to Sword Coast. He was looking for a soul to steal..."

[@Hikertrash215]

Already my favorite interpretation of the Bard I've seen in rpgs. I'm a forever GM but if I ever get the chance to be a player in SD, I'd be hard pressed not to play a bard. Great work!

[@dylanhyatt5705]

Glad you resisted giving the bard spells - one of the strengths of your system is the classes feel distinctive.

[@bettsdn]

I just late backed because of this. One of the best implementations of Bard I’ve ever seen. I’m a forever DM 😅 but I think I can convince one of my players to DM Shadowdark so I can play this Bard.

[@csudab]

I admire how much of your design is about not “treading on the toes” of other good things in the design 🦉

[@ChristopherFinchProfile]

I love your Bard, but its missing my favorite Bard attack, Cutting Words; which lets me roll-play my attack at the game table 😂

[@mikecheckpro]

Big fan from Chicago here. My local game shop has a killer Shadowdark Stonehell game going!

[@RayOtus]

It was awesome to hear your thoughts in this and the Ranger stream. You are a sharp thinker and I love hearing the "why" behind a lot of your Shadowdark design choices. The historic framing discussions at the beginning are brilliant since they give you the power to rewind and/or take a different path. I do miss the "Diplomacy - force an enemy to reroll a reaction check" though. That was a really cool idea! And it would (as you sort of outlined in your rumination on edge cases) make the fiction surprising.

[@merethif]

The point is, everyone could force enemy to reroll a reaction check tbh. If a player try to parley, beg for mercy or engage in some other diplomatic reasoning during encounter, even in the middle of the combat, DM may re-roll reaction and narrates it accordingly. And I agree it creates cool and surprising fiction, but it's something every class can do.

[@RayOtus]

@@merethif Interesting. I guess I would rarely re-roll a reaction mid-combat or negotiation or whatever, regardless of what characters said. Yes, actions and words could possibly shift/modify a target's viewpoint, but actually being able to re-roll the reaction is something more dramatic/powerful, I think. They say "you never get a chance to make a first impression." But the bard ALMOST had that ability. :)

[@estebangarcia8730]

Diplomacy could improve a reaction by a grade. Hostile to threatening, for example.

[@merethif]

@@RayOtus I mean I don't disagree with you, I allow to re-roll reaction only if there are some new circumstances making it sensible - you can call it a reaction to new, emerging situation :-) Similar way morale checks are made. And I agree it would be cool if bard have such extra ability that would basically forced new reaction rolls now matter circumstances. I'm just a bit afraid such ability might send a wrong signal to the rest of the players that parleying is only possible with it.

[@RayOtus]

@@merethif yeah. And I can see why the ability didn’t make the cut. It just seemed cool to me. But like a lot of things - the proof would be in the play. I’d have to see it at the table. And it sounds a little bit hard to adjudicate.

[@hideshiseyes2804]

Love this. As soon as she said “I want to bring dignity back to the bard” I was on board. So sick of bards being either horny weirdos who break the immersion by trying to seduce every monster, or comic relief characters whose bardic performance is beat boxing or something. The only thing that irks me is the very common dogmatic OSR distaste for skills. She acknowledges that with this class and the thief she has one starting talent that is essentially a skill list (and she did the same for the ranger in fact). But then she goes “I worry that people who are familiar with D&D will see this and think it’s a skill list.” Like, yes! And they’d be right! And that’s fine! That gripe aside though, really really cool. I’ve run one session of Shadowdark using my Dungeon23 and I’m looking forward to doing more.

[@EruditeDM]

I prefer a Sinatra Bard: “a puppet, a pauper, a pirate, a poet, a pawn and a king.”

[@geoffreynelson6413]

Oration and musical performance are types of performance. Music as a subject includes history, theory, performance, composition. So does oration, but they are very different in content. Bardic Arts is a great name. Early on you mentioned that bards know things. In game terms that means either they have access to things the GM knows or they have the ability to add to or change the world building. Mechanically SD doesn’t lean into player access to the setting (as in games like fate) and much of the gameplay relies on a fog-of-war approach. So a bardic ability to know would mean either a peek into the GM’s secrets or an ability to see into the true nature of something (a creature’s true intentions or weaknesses, an obscure song about a secret tunnel, one true thing about a magic item, and so on). To mechanize that, maybe: Story Hoard: With a successful Intelligence check, the bard remembers one true tale about a creature, item, or location. If they fail, the story they recall may be false, true, or partially true at the GM’s discretion.”

[@toddrohrer8680]

Is that your wife’s art too

[@TheArcaneLibrary]

Yes! :)

[@toddrohrer8680]

I think she is becoming my favorite fantasy artist

[@notreallydavid]

​@@TheArcaneLibraryYou both do great stuff!

[@trioofone8911]

My first ever ttrpg character was a bard. Well, he was a fighter first, then a thief, THEN a bard. Yes, bards in ADnD in 1981 were definitely complicated...

[@shinyeesiek3357]

Sorry I could not participate in the live chat. It was 2am in Hanoi. Very interesting process to make the bard class, especially taking away the spells and going back to archetype bards from history.

[@LeFlamel]

Haven't gotten to the end but 10-11 talent could reduce inspire DC by 1 or 2 each time it's taken, rather than becoming a re-roll.

[@LeFlamel]

Could even mimic the luck aspect by making it reduce the DC by d2.

[@zinniaferguson461]

I am so glad I found this!! I discovered the Shadowdark RPG through the grapevine a couple months ago, bought the book and all the cursed scroll zines, and am absolutely loving it. Very excited to add the bard and ranger classes to the collection and integrate them into the rest. Keep up the great work! Thank you for bringing such a wonderful game into the world!

[@Mandalorian2814]

I like watching the gears click as the Bard progresses. I would think that the instrument would be a no gear slot item. I'm glad no Spells. I can see a finesse weapon like a foil or scimitar or something akin... " I carouse and I know things"

[@merethif]

From the moment I saw that brilliant piece of art I knew the SD bard will be a class close to my vision and something I'd enjoy. And I was right. Not making the bard a troubadour, a charming scoundrel or a juggling entertainer was something I was hoping for. It's not that there's anything wrong with such "comic relief" archetype, but I think thief fills the niche nicely. Thief is a silver-tongued con artist. Not only thief may get +2 Cha on 6-9 talent but deceiving and bluffing might be interpreted as part of "sneaking and applying disguises" so I encourage DMs to give thieves ADV if a deceiving/bluffing roll is needed. After all, "sneaking in" is not only about moving silently through shadows - one can "sneak in" by pretending being someone else or by beguiling the guards; and what's worth a skilful disguise if one can't act in a role.

[@johnharrison2086]

The end result is the type of Bard that I would like to play. In some systems it is a Class I would avoid but the Shadowdark Bard is very good. This and the Ranger Class are excellent additions to the game.

[@razorchuckles]

I love these pen and ink illustrations - so classic and old school. They really get me pumped up!

[@calebboehler8102]

At the language bit in the video, and I'd say 4 commons and a rare is reasonable... every african refugee/immigrants that I've methas spoken at least three, usually 5 and occasionally 6 or more languages fluently. Europeans I'm told also frequently speak several languages. So it would make sense that a diplomat/ambassador type class be fluent in many, and even one or two rare languages

[@patrickk8018]

Being masters of song and story bards should be masters of emotion and how to influence them. Just a thought.

[@beetlejuss]

I think a bard defense should not come from armor or shield but from the ability to move swiftly and dancing and parrying, think of it like a +2 AC the bladesinger song. It would be also very cool if in order to save their life from an attack or save, they could sacrifice their instrument. About wordsmith is fine it does not mean roll to convince based of facts, but it could mean roll to create feelings by the eloquence of how you say things.

[@toddrohrer8680]

Have you thought about common weapons that anyone could use like club and dagger

[@ManJackThe]

That art is super dope!

[@francoisdumont4105]

I have a cool idea for a dwarf bard character. Hopefully I get to play him one day.

[@steventorres-roman8364]

One way you can write up effects that are "x/day," is to refer to the bonus for the associated stat. For example, perhaps a bard can attempt to hypnotize a target a number of times per day equal to their CHA bonus. Also, I would include that if a bard's attempt to hypnotize a target is unsuccessful, they may not attempt to hypnotize that same target again until the bard has taken a rest.

[@calevenice]

I like bards as jack of all trades: several uses of charisma, support warriors, & limited utility magic. I like the access to spells through scrolls and wands. Voice being the instrument works great! Especially when you consider goblin battlesingers.

[@HeadSpaceCreations]

New sub keep it up. I got a shadow Bard lvl 6 bard 1 lvl rouge and feat of shadow with mask of wild he's hard to find.

[@donkeyfly43]

28:00 Ambassador, or Diplomat. They are trained speakers

[@michaelkeith7991]

I'm not really a fan of the spellcasting but that point on scroll is deadly smart

[@alexclark8029]

Really impressed with all of Shadowdark so far. I recently did a late pledge and it was worth it. Really dig how you did the Ranger and the Bard is shaping up nicely! Keep up the awesome work!

[@MattJSparks]

Kelsey mentions the witch lalss multiple times in this video - where do I find that class? I backed the kickstarter and have the main pdf V1. I guess the witch is in something else?

[@TheArcaneLibrary]

Oh, yes! That's an optional class from Cursed Scroll 1. :)

[@radamanthus]

You made the first bard I’ve ever wanted to play. Well done.

[@frithkin]

I am watching from Australia ( East Coast )

[@thereisn0m0re]

"Major Dabblers." *salutes*

[@mAcChaosCh]

I like this except I am not sure where the advantage is supposed to come in if you aren't "supposed" to use rolls for knowing lore or persuasion. When does the advantage actually come up?

[@Owl_of_Omens]

Much like the thief in Shadow dark, where he gets advantage on all trap finding and thieving checks, you would gain advantage on certain, lore and history, and performance checks.

[@bktaylor0316]

The bard looks great! I can't wait to get the final pdf and start to use it!

[@KammaKhazi]

fantastic art again

[@brandoneckert5096]

where do we get the template?

[@cristianstabile3511]

Great video! Three things I would change: Firstly, I think that the Parley ability 1/day should remain, but under the title: "Charm/Fascinate". That way you: 1) Can still get the charm/fascinate bullet point checked (I would remove it from the Talent Table, see below). 2) Can allow the GM to made the rulling about the reaction-in-combat a little more "liberal" (great for narrative twists!) Secondly, I would make the Carousing bonus only apply to the bard. Sure, the event is funded by the group as a whole, but each player gets to roll for him/herself! Finally, the most radical suggestion (pun intended): I would ditch the talent roll table completely. The results are too similar one to the other. I would instead make the bard pick, every level when he gets a talent roll, another class and roll from that. Do you want a "fighting" bard? Roll from fighter. Do you want a "roguish" bard? Roll from Rogue. If you want to increase certain stats, you go and pick the class that has those stats as possible bonus on its table. Can it get very wild? Yes! But only if you are veeery lucky (the bell curve is still in place). And if you ARE lucky, good for you! That would make the bard very unique. My two cents, keep up the great work!

[@witchesbruise8792]

This just goes to show how many ways you can interpret and design a bard - a tough challenge! Here's my two cents: I loved it when you had Legend Lore as a special ability that "Just Works" giving the bard knowledge of all things mythical. I love it when abilities are written in a way that people in the world could say them verbatim and it would make sense to them (abilities that don't use any technical game jargon). I find that they help keep my mind in the "in world/in character" mode.

[@vaultdweller6045]

@The_Arcane_Library In terms of Player Stats, is 18 considered the maximum possible value of a Stat?

[@andrzejzielinski9213]

I always add the wizards' Learn Spell. They dont get spells or spell talents per level, but they can learn spells from scrolls.

[@shinyeesiek3357]

It also occurred to me that parlay and legend/ lore are part of the class description. Legend/lore needs no role, it just fits in the description. Parlay, as you mentioned, is an action a bard or any character can attempt during combat, or just before combat. Ah, and you just said as much at minute 1:49.

[@SeamusDobbin]

Thanks for the glimpse into your design process! Really cool collaborative back-and-forth for this one.

[@lanaz375]

@Eric Stocklassa I liked your suggestion of Thom Merrilin as inspiration :)

[@vancedahl9196]

Woohoo!

[@mrnixon2287]

Nice! Love the flexibility of the bard. Every party is going to need a bard.

[@shinyeesiek3357]

It occurred to me that o e benefit of a bard is during rest; an inspiring speech, a retrospective sign, a tale to cam the nerves, all could help improve rest. Perhaps the bard could still allow a full rest one per session in place of rations.

[@ryannilsson7955]

No spell casting for bards. They should have some other niche, but spell casting does not fit.

[@michaelkeith7991]

Edmonton canada

[@fractal_gate]

THANK YOU for not making every damn class a spellcaster.

[@BeauYarbrough]

I really appreciate the design insights in your livestreams. Even though we're done with the design livestream stretch goals, here's hoping we get more design videos in the future.

[@briancoughlin7535]

I second the request for an Indesign video. I just started using it myself and would love to see how you use it.

[@michaelkeith7991]

Yes ya scrolls and ballads or compositions or high level symphonies ( multiple bards )

[@GothridgeManor]

It was fun to watch you go through the process. You even made the bard interesting to me. But just a little. :)

[@toddrohrer8680]

I love the thought you put into making this character. I think this is the best bard I hsve seen

[@SkittleBombs]

You should add second levers to balance, for example if a character is Bloodied, or took damage are conditions that are easier to track

[@tankatim13]

10-11 The DC to use Inspire becomes 9 or +1 AC

[@Ryan-ud4uq]

🎲🎲🎲

[@TheHexeract]

Amazing job, but since you blaaaasted past all your strech goals, we're going to need a warlock too real quick. Then we're done.

[@David-su4is]

Exalant stuff, thank you so much.

[@Kotszu]

I love how this Bard turned out!

[@williamscarvie4498]

So much fun to watch these classes come to life. On another note: (maybe I already missed this but) will we get to meet Jessie and your new dog on the channel at some point? 😊

[@TheArcaneLibrary]

I think that will happen at some point! :D

[@dennisthornton4434]

Texas, north of Dallas.

[@loconius]

You mention play testing the bard, where can I find the doc to do that?

[@TheArcaneLibrary]

A good question indeed! :D I realized I didn't post the PDF yet. It's now in the video description, and also available here: www.dropbox.com/s/64imcnszkag44en/Bard%20V1.pdf?dl=0

[@toddrohrer8680]

Oh I’m in California

[@TimDecker989]

I like the Legend Lore

[@jandssales]

Bardic repertoire.

[@xephos120]

will there be a barbarian type class?, Bard looks cool tho

[@Avoloch]

very cool

[@michaellegg1631]

Battle Cry gives advantage

[@michaellegg1631]

Talented dramatic story teller , lore, charmer, very Charismatic and knows some about a lot of stuff

[@727xer]

Fflewdder Fflam the Bard from the Chronicles of Prydain c1964 was my 1st exposure to the Skald. So imagine my surprise at all the (wrong) variations that have come along since the 1e Players Handbook. Just in my opinion; Bards travel the Realms learning & swapping tales and histories, playing for their dinner and hopefully a few coins from the tavern room. But as the Ranger has some stealth (thief) traits, so should the Bard have some nimble fingers filtching (pick pocket, pick locks) traits i.e. ol' Thom in Wheel of Time. Because not all Bards are Lawful.... 😏

[@Shamefulroleplay]

Shame you did a witch as a spell caster who is best with Charisma before you did a more classic class like a Bard. :(

[@man_in_the_robe_production4338]

NNNNNOOOOOO

[@TheArcaneLibrary]

This sounds like the scream of someone who wanted spellcasting 😅

[@danielgranda896]

I really enjoyed your stream creating the Ranger class so I was glad to finally get a chance to watch this today. The Bard has been a favorite of mine but probably has seen the biggest “Identity Crisis” over the years. Keepers of Knowledge as advisors to Kings Bards used music to help store history not only to make it easier to remember but to propagate it throughout the kingdom. Diplomats and “traveling academics”. I agree 100% they should get bonuses to carousing or while in taverns. Eliminating “innate” Magic but keeping their ability to decipher and verbally cast scrolls feels so “Bard”to me. “Research” would be a fun skill for them to gain advantage over an enemy. Great fun watching your development. Thanks!

[@mr7oclock346]

"No to thief skills, No to spells" I tuned out of the video there. The bard having an array of skills is what what makes a bard and bard. If you just want a character who buffs the party, isn't a scoundrel, and who buff's the party, just play a cleric who plays an instrument.

[@john-lenin]

Bards should be a subclass of Thief.