Has God predetermined every detail in the universe, including sin?

[@Vincentvuoto]

One day Christ will return and every person will see Him in His glory. No opinions will be entertained. Everyone will be silenced and know that He is the great, "I AM"

[@dayweed85]

evidence?

[@karu6111]

Yeah yeah we get it, we burn in Hell and you go to Heaven. Sweet, sweet heaven...

[@Vincentvuoto]

Leon Gackenheit I am not going to heaven because I've earned it. I'm no better than anyone else. Trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of you sins. Anyone who believes and asks is forgiven. :)

[@josiahsmailes791]

@@Vincentvuoto no, only the elect get forgiven

[@josiahsmailes791]

@kevin purdy lol, you're funny... 1. God creates creatures which become evil (Isa. 45.7) 2. Creates the wicked for the day of evil (prov. 16:4) 3. Is free to do as He pleases and is perfect in His ways (Dan. 4:35) 4. Saves individuals according to the good pleasure of His will doesn't mean that people aren't free in other decisions which they make.

[@eden8831]

This is a hard topic, and if you cannot wrap your mind around it just trust. Like proverbs 3:5 says: Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.❤

[@christalone71]

Yes, praise Jesus. I can submit to these truths even if I don't understand them entirely. Same way I submit to the doctrine of the Trinity, Christ's Deity/Humanity, the in-filling of the Holy Spirit in believers, and on and on. AMEN

[@rocketsurgeon1746]

It is a hard topic because Piper is totally wrong. God does not even tempt men to sin, the Bible says! This is insanity to say that God has anything to do with sin. He is righteous and holy.

[@lilyduck4538]

Yep, don't lean on your own understanding. But you can understand the kind of power Piper talks about, it's a very human centric kind of power. All about himself and complete control. Yet God doesn't say he is like that. He says that neither power, knowledge or even kindness is valuable without love. He says that he will never tempt us. He says he does not even think of our evil, let alone command it. ( Jeremiah 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind) So if that is hard to wrap your mind around, don't worry about it, and simply trust him

[@murraylloyd6011]

Better to reject his perversion of Gods character and believe the gospel of the bible.

[@OfFullAge-es6gm]

@@christalone71 Doctrine brought about by the *imagination* of mankind is Satanic.

[@UltimateMysteriesQuest-s2h]

Indeed! Destiny. God is beyond time and he has written everything! We are all in God's Hands! Blessed are us who are favored by God! God Bless Us!

[@srjshapthnktl4978]

James 1:13 New International Version (NIV) 13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

[@eagleeye182]

He allows evil befall us.

[@craigjoyner9857]

Eagle Eye , no, he cannot be calvinistically sovereign, and then allow things to happen. He has to be in control of all. Did you watch the first 20 seconds of the video?!? God is in control of it all. There is no “let befall” in Calvinism.

[@eagleeye182]

@@craigjoyner9857 Who is talking about Calvinism in the first place? How is God "in control" when hundreds of thousands of people alone are committing suicide every year? In fact, the Devil has no power. He can`t do absolutely anything without God`s approval. God allows evil befall us in hope that we turn to Him, but in the vast majority of cases, people become too damaged in the process and lose any kind of motivation to carry on. It seems, we (God and we) don`t understand each other.

[@craigjoyner9857]

Eagle Eye , John MacArthur is a staunch calvinist/reformed theologian. When he answers this question, he is speaking from the Calvinistic perspective. There is no “let happen” in Calvinism/reformed theology. The only thing that happens, is what god decreed to happen. This is why I am opposed to Calvinism/reformed theology and consider it a different gospel.

[@eagleeye182]

@@craigjoyner9857 This is not John MacArthur but John Piper. You`ve obviously mixed them up.

[@Unfinishedbasementpr]

I struggle with this stuff too. But it's encouraging to know that He works it all out for the good of those who love Him.

[@Pandaemoni]

But He determines who is elect and makes them love Him. He chooses to create love in the hearts of some and chooses not to intervene in the hearts of others (who, so far as we know, may still choose to love Him, but who in their fallen state still are not among the elect). "For though the twins were not yet born and had not yet done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose *according to His choice* would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, 'THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.' Just as it is written: 'JACOB I HAVE LOVED, BUT ESAU I HAVE HATED.'” Romans 9:11-13 Predestination assumes God intervenes in the hearts of the elect to make them follow the narrow path of salvation. Some believe He intervenes in the hearts of the non-elect to ensure they fall short, but the more orthodox Calvinist view is that He merely decides to not grant them mercy and leaves them to their own devices, knowing that that means they are damned. Still, that by itself doesn't mean those people won't love God at all, even if only to try to earn salvation by accepting Jesus in their own imperfect, fallen, and inadequate way.

[@outragedartz6187]

For all those who love him??? But he also made all those who don’t love him to not love him. So they go to hell because god simply did not want them to love him.

[@barbaud5920]

thats fine for the elect only. you have no good news to share with thenon elect. you r a dumb person

[@rocketsurgeon1746]

@@Pandaemoni standard calvanist verses out of context. Jesus calls ALL to repent. He calls ALL to believe. We have a choice and free will and it does NOT take God's glory

[@jesusisgod2953]

Calvinism is satanic

[@mirrortv364]

I am one of those who is going insane trying to comprehend what you said. On the other hand, I respect you for not dodging the question like many others do. Edit: 3 years later, today in Feb 12th 2022 (I must have written my original comment on 2019 before Covid hit), I understand God's sovereignty in a different, and more acceptable way. I believe that the solution is in what he said @4:10 like one of the comments mentioned below. I accept what I don't understand, and turn to the cross where He solved the problem of sin and gave me salvation and redemption from death. Everything else come secondary to this insight. God bless you all.

[@bencraven3101]

“It won’t drive you mad, if you say, he loves me”

[@bencraven3101]

4:10

[@bobbyadkins6983]

Because it's not biblical. He doesn't know God. No one who accuses God for all the evil in the world knows God.

[@jasont5300]

@@bobbyadkins6983 so God never predestined and had a His hand in the greatest sin and atrocity ever committed as stated in Acts 4? Who’s the one that doesn’t know God?

[@jasont5300]

@@bobbyadkins6983 it’s nice that you provide scripture for your accusations.

[@paulasky4266]

What people DON'T or REFUSE to UNDERSTAND is.... GOD IS SOVEREIGN AND HE SIMPLY CAN DO ANYTHING HE WANTS, AND HE IS ALWAYS JUST & RIGHTEOUS. who are we to discuss HIS ways. PERIOD.

[@jblglw]

So the speaker on this video should keep his mouth shut?

[@goodthingsareontheway8454]

So you are telling me i should believe in a God that would predestine me to hell?

[@mauriciorv228]

@@goodthingsareontheway8454exactly, calvinistic predestination is a false teaching.

[@AVB2-LST1154]

​@@goodthingsareontheway8454On Judgment Day just tell God you refused to believe in Him because He is the One that gets to choose those that He wants to spend eternity with and that He is unfair. I hope you have fire proof clothing on when you tell Him that.

[@joeyrchapa]

Piper says, “At the center to the solution of the problem is a choice YOU have to make about the cross”? If God determines everything how does that work? It’s contradictory.

[@Key-ps2iy]

Free will is the ability to choose something freely, the ability to want to do something. It’s not the ability to act on your own without God. That’s important to understand God is omniscient and omnipotent and of course that means that everything that is happening in this world is caused by him, he wills and does everything, otherwise he wouldn’t be God. So yes, according to the Bible everything is pure fate and predetermined. If you say, that this kind of predetermined world doesn’t make sense, then you don’t understand what it means to be a creator and what it means to be its creation. It automatically means it’s only important what God wants, not what his creation wants. As a creator you can wreck your creation or not like I destroy the gift wrap and get rid of it but keep the present. It’s not important what the gift wrap wants, it’s important what I who just wants to keep the present wants. When I complain that everything is predestined and God does what he wants, it's like my gift wrap complaining about why I do what I want. Also, Saying people could choose to sin is very stupid. It’s funny because that thought denies God. Only God is holy, only he can give you the ability not to sin. People who are like Yeah, but Satan chose to sin that’s why God will punish him with hell is so weird. In the beginning every living being God created didn’t sin at all by his protection. Now you want to tell me there is some kind of creation of God like an angel who is like „No God, I don’t care about your protection. I will sin now“ hahahah what’s that being who can do that. That would mean that today everyone in heaven could do the same thing the devil did in heaven. No difference. Revelation 17,17 Philippians 2,13 Romans 9,19

[@RegretsOf27band]

Right, you're headed in the right direction. We can never fully understand God but only with what He has revealed to us through His word. In the bible we find the sovereignty of God. I thank that my salvation doesn't rest in the fact that "I chose it", but rather that God has chosen me.

[@rocketsurgeon1746]

God chooses anyone whose repents. The Bible is very clear

[@maluill]

@@rocketsurgeon1746 Imagine 9 years later dudes an atheist 😂. Point is no one could know they were "chosen" if they were "chosen".

[@TrueLifeAdventures]

"And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin." Jeremiah 32:35 Put that in your Piper and smoke it.

[@johnbrodeur3528]

Check out luke10:31 ...by chance

[@raukawa4732]

I think that God knows everything, He knows every detail of every future event in every person's life before it occurs. Free will would suggest that He knows the choices we will make but doesn't cause us to make them, unless we ask Him to intervene. Of course, He knows if we will ask Him and He knows who are His, even before they existed. Also, God can influence the future through His plans, which never fail - His plans are always good and perfect, God either redeems or He destroys, either way He is just because He's admistering justice. So our will is often different from His will, because His will is always good, merciful and loving, while our will is foolish, proud and selfish - One of the beautiful things about God is that He gives us free will, He doesn't create robot's. His will ultimately must be done and ultimately will be done, but not at the expense of man's free will - It's not His will that sin should reign in people's hearts, it's the people's will, and yet God turns wickedness into grace and glory, yet He himself did not cause the wickedness. God is love, not sin! God is Good, God is kind, God is just! God is light, and there is NO darkness in Him at all!

[@tiff3156]

God literally says in Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

[@minmin_haokip]

@@tiff3156 Darkness (representing evil or calimity) doesn't meant that God is the source of evil. Bible teaches that evil is the result of humanity's choice to rebel against God and turn away from His ways. But the point is even in the midst of these difficulties God is still in control and working for the good of those who love Him.

[@ovandograham7793]

@@minmin_haokipbut who predetermined human to sin originally???

[@minmin_haokip]

@@ovandograham7793 In Christian belief, specifically in regard to this, it's not so much about predestination but about the free will of Adam and Eve. They were given the choice to obey or disobey God's command in the Garden of Eden, and their disobedience is what's often referred to as the 'original sin.' It's seen as a result of their own choice rather than something predetermined. Genesis 2:17 (NIV): "But you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

[@ovandograham7793]

@@minmin_haokip I understand this but since discovering new information my opinion has changed. It says in the Bible has the potter not have power over the clay and it also says he determined things long ago. God is sovereign is over everything so nothing goes on without him permitting it. He wrote the script to life. Adam and Eve sin due to Gods script but I’ve realised you need to be able to accept that God can some how design sin (for his glory to show his justice) but in a way that makes him NOT sin

[@jeremygreenidge5209]

This is reassuring. It makes me feel better that after the many mistakes that I've made in my life, they were still in God's plans. For my betterment in the long run. After a lot of trials and tribulations and suffering, I realized that God merely allowed me to go through them for a lighter path. This woman left me and I was heartbroken, but He knew she wasn't good for me. It wouldn't have ended well. He looks out for his children every step of the way. Even if it doesn't seem like it.

[@evanu6579]

Jeremy Greenidge Does it make you feel better that god uses certain people to rape little children? I was going to say that god uses wicked perverts to rape children, but they didn’t really have any choice in the matter either, so they’re more or less victims in all of this as well.

[@maluill]

@@evanu6579 everyone is a victim even Satan

[@msliberated3899]

@@LaughwithMAZ it absolutely is! Trust God on this!! He knows better❤Don’t lean on your own understanding, it will get you in trouble for decades or forever

[@mattyounts9400]

@123456stronzoYou want humans to be god and have all of their prayers answered with a yes. This world is not our home.

[@rahulshinde6210]

“To argue that God is “trying His best” to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent.” A W Pink

[@jordanbelcher3353]

rahul shinde what about when Jesus says to the Jews how long I have wanted to gather you under my wings like a hen but you were not willing

[@jordanbelcher3353]

or the old testament scripture I lay before you life and death blessings and curses now choose life so that you may live or ezikial 18 do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked now choose life so that you may live why oh why will you die Israel

[@frankh.5378]

Jordan Belcher in those passages, God is speaking to a limited humans (like us) who are bound by time who is dead in sin but his word is being preached! Just as it is being done now, God's Word proclaims his desire for you to knock, seek and find, lean not on your own understanding, do not be wise in your own eyes, repent! All these are ways God is showing what he wants of us so thay we may conform to his will. But in God's perspective, as the Word proclaims, we were predestined before the creation of the world.

[@siquod]

So you say God is lying: He does indeed take pleasure in the death of the wicked, and he didn't *really* want to gather the Jews under his wings. Also I wouldn't say God is "trying is best". God is not an optimization algorithm. He desires everyone to be saved, but prefers to instill faith by more subtle methods than having angels heralding the Gospel everywhere or whatever other means one may imagine as "trying his best". Not that this would work. The only reliable way he could save everyone was puppet master level control. I think you know why it is assumed he doesn't want that. And he certainly doesn't owe it to us to "try his best". He is still just and loving and his wish (not plan!) to save everyone is honest. Mr. Pink should explain why the ability to make a moral choice implies omnipotence.

[@jaymorris9952]

Well then your whole belief system is wrong, because the bible clearly teaches that it's God's will for all to be saved. But it also teaches that only few will be saved. So yeah, you have a problem. 1 Timothy 2:3,4: This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

[@bobbyadkins6983]

Its strange how this man talks to us like we can make choices but also says that God has predetermined every single thing that we do and all that happens.

[@jacobbodin5041]

Both are true what are ya gonna do! 🤷‍♂️

[@authenticallysuperficial9874]

All that really matters for us is the illusion of free will. Doesn't matter whether God already chose something for us, since we seem to get to choose for ourselves what is is that God has already planned!

[@authenticallysuperficial9874]

In this view: If I choose to sin, then God already decided I would sin. If I choose not to sin, then God already decided I would not sin. So, I get to choose whether or not God already decided I would sin!

[@sciartion]

I don't think it has to be personal with Piper, remember that this is a long-standing question in Christianity and philosophy, he is not the only one that teaches this, nor did he came up with it.

[@madelynhernandez7453]

Right. It can be one or the other.

[@jessegavigan7966]

This fact that God knows our sins even before we were formed in the womb makes me realize how much he really loves me that he would still want to create me knowing about my dirty sin. He sent his son to die for our sins that we can be made righteous in his suffering. God's gift of free will is so amazing that nobody on earth will be able to comprehend until we get to heaven. THANK YOU JESUS

[@kaitlyn-gracesmith7923]

Ok but why not make you without sin?

[@jsbaldo5556]

@@kaitlyn-gracesmith7923 lol Do you not know the story? Through the first man and women sin entered the world by the choice they made to disobey God, Sin was then inherited by every man and women from there, Jesus came and obeyed every command and did not sin, He shed his blood as a substitute for our sin, So by his blood God no longer sees us as sinners but we recieve the rightousness of jesus, God in the flesh, His begotten son, His living word, He rose three days later so that by faith we will be forgiven and rise to, Now the interesting part is, He mentions "Just as by one man (adam) ALL were made sinners Now By One mans Rightousness (perfection) All are made Perfect/rightous, Jesus healed the wound opened by adam and eve, Faith in him causes us to recieve HIS perfection, It is the GIFT of God, not of anything you can do but what God did for you, the commandments were a teacher to show us we are IMPERFECT and NEED to be saved, Jesus FULFILLED the entire law, he was not born a sinner, he was perfect completly and being God he was able to fully save forever those who call on his name.

[@MB777-qr2xv]

Jeremiah 19:5 has God saying, "The people built the high places to sacrifice their children to idols something I did NOT command nor did I speak it nor did it enter my mind." While God does cause many things to happen, He HIMSELF says He does NOT cause everything.

[@rocio8851]

Dear calvinists! Have you ever tried to live consistent with Piper's view on God's sovereignty? I lived for one month and a half. It was the most terrible time of my life. I was struggling with ups and downs and asking myself why God didn't choose me? Why should I pray for my brother who is not saved if God didn't choose him? I was a student at theology preparing to go into ministry. Why should I preach the Gospel of everything is predetermined? Thank God He saved me from that thinking.

[@eagleclan75]

So what's your point? You are elected if you believe and have real faith. The difference is that you believe its your doing or you made the decision to be saved. The bible says that brfore the universe was made he chose us. Even if you believe it was all your doing how do you know it wasn't all predetermined? You don't know... After All no one comes to Christ unless the farther draws them. If God who holds the visible and invisible in place draws someone then I'm pretty sure they come. You tried for a month and a half living like a calvinist? So what your saying is that you couldn't just let go of pride? You have to be in control? You have to save your family members. You you you you You? I choose to except the fact that God is in control of everything and if one is saved they will at some point receive the gosple from someone because it's just what supposed to happen.

[@abisamraj4408]

@@eagleclan75 your god is an asshole

[@MrBazinthenow]

@@eagleclan75 where does it say that you were chosen to be saved before the universe was formed ?

[@MrBazinthenow]

Where does it say in the bible that the father draws people after the cross ?

[@pbuckets9242]

The exact same thing happened to me.

[@davidw5441]

I love the fact that though God is sovereign we are responsible. I wouldn't want to pray to God if He didn't control everything and everyone. I love you Jesus only because you first loved me.

[@livingforjesus8551]

So, you are telling me, that God controlled that person to rape those kids? He controlled that person ti be trans, and to shoot up that Christian school, killing three adults, and three kids? You are telling me that God controlled that person to be prideful, and to lust after that other person, even though scripture tells us, that pride and lust comes from the world? God is in control, byt he doesn't control everything.

[@jtbruchaurd3024]

He said it!! "Every horrible thing and every sinful thing is governed by God". And then he said God planned the worst wickedness in history. Can you imagine this guy being your public spokesman???!!!!!!!!!

[@OfFullAge-es6gm]

Rom 1:22 _"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, ..."_

[@dsuggs4694]

Scripture clearly tells us that God is sovereign over all things and that we are held accountable for our actions. The Acts 2:23 clearly states this was predetermined by God. Praise God for John Piper

[@OfFullAge-es6gm]

@@dsuggs4694 Ppl may *know about* someone, but one that has had a *personal* relationship of the One in question; as one who he/she had become intimately related with The One in question, is the one that actually *knows* the Person. One knowing *about* God, is one that is *_"ever learning,_*_ but __-never able-__ to _*_come_*_ to The Knowledge of The Truth."_ Placing such a one in the category of the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus' day. Not questioning you about the *Sovereignty* of God, nor of our accountability of our actions we take within our lifetime. The question is about *The Justice* of God, towards that of humanity. Certainly He has control over *all* things, such as the *not allowing* Satan to do to Job, beyond the *permission* given of God towards him. He also has a *permissive* will, and *a perfect* will, when dealing with the worshippers of God. As in Balaam's approaching Him correctly,, and his (Balaam's) action afterwards, when he was determined to curse Israel, he was placing a *blessing* upon them instead. His first response was His Perfect Will, saying "Don't go!" Yet Balaam approached Him *again,* to try to persuade Him to -change- His Decision, and be *allowed* to go and try again. Thereby was Granted to him His *permissive* will. His *permissive* will, is that _none _*_should_*_ perish, but that ALL _*_should_*_ come to repentance._ But, He has sets up a pattern for them to *come to* repentance. Making that pattern placed upon them to be His Perfect Will. Outside of that, would fall under His permissive will. God, Being Sovereign, does what He wills with His *bought* subjects. Yet His Foreknowledge, understands their final outcome, but grants Grace to the vessels of dishonor, a period of time in which to repent, thereby preventing them from having an excuse when their day of judgement is come unto them. (Psa. 1:5) Their decisive action, is what brings them into their own judgement, not because God predestinated them to that destruction. To try to blame God, for our own unwillingness to submit to His Will is what determines our destiny. So, _"Let God be True, and _*_every_*_ man a liar."_ How are they *liar's* they take God's Word (Will) and make it mean something that It was not meant to be.

[@jtbruchaurd3024]

@@dsuggs4694 that’s pretty sick

[@OfFullAge-es6gm]

The foreknowledge of God is what makes Him Omnipresent, as well as Omniscient.

[@bryanpratt5850]

No one can come to Jesus unless the Father who sent Him draws him. All whom the Father draws will come to Jesus, and Jesus will not turn away any who come to Him. Of those whom the Father gives the Son, the Son will lose none, but will raise them up at the last day.

[@chutdiggadigga]

Biblical events requiring sovereign intention for evil works in a good purpose can not necessarily be extrapolated to everything

[@HangingHabagat2005]

What do you mean? all things mean all things In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, Ephesians 1:11 ESV bible.com/bible/59/eph.1.11.ESV

[@SerendipitousProvidence]

Your definition of evil is objectively wrong then. Sin and evil are whatever that is contrary to God's nature, God's definition of these terms is the objective truth. Think of God's morality as a perfect object to be imitated, you use it as the standard or the ruler to measure your imitation, not otherwise

[@mesisson]

Gotta watch your words here. God isn't the author of sin. Sometimes our attempts to define the ways of God come across as double-talk.

[@rnbear]

If God is not in total control, he is a limited god and one whom would leave us with much doubt and uncertainty regarding our salvation in one who can't control the day from the night. But that is not the God of the Bible. He is bound by no limitations. He is ALMIGHTY and SOVEREIGN. (Genesis 15:20; 1 Chronicles 29:11; Proverbs 19:21, 16:9, 16:4; Jeremiah 29:11; Ephesians 1:11; Isaiah 55:8-11; etc)

[@madambutterfly7513]

Mark Sisson - God is not sin, I totally agree

[@JonathanGrandt]

Rachel Bear God is infinitely intelligent. He doesn’t need to be a puppet master.

[@zacharyspickard8108]

@@JonathanGrandt God is the only being that has libertarian free will. We are creatures that God has all control. In Daniel 4, it talks about how God does according to his will and that no one can say to him why did u do that. God's will overrides the creatures free will. Just as Piper said if we stay with the cross we will see.

[@RichardCranium.]

Calvinists are perverts. They believe God is a "sovereign" puppeteer.

[@SamMontgomery-d2c]

Revelation 4.11 ''For thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things and for thy pleasure they are and were created'' . Notice how he says ALL THINGS and not just some things, that us with our human understanding think are good. Shalom

[@shali2000]

Every time I see Piper's video there is an argument going on these comment. I also have tried to argue with someone and its pointless. Bible is very simple to me at least. Love people Love God Serve Other with Love that has given to us By Jesus. I just think its waste of energy and time to argue when we can go out to the world and love others. Love, Faith, Hope that's what we should hold on to. First and most of all is love.

[@JohnPetricone-b6q]

so what is your answer when someone says what is the hope that is in you? why the Bible?

[@AlanaL3]

A choice you have to make about the cross? Or a choice you hope God has already made for you before you were born? If you get arrogant with these doctrines isn’t it because God determines you would? If you stay humble, God determined it?

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

Yes. If Calvinism is true, I was predetermined not to believe it. On the other hand, if it is not true there is still hope for those who think it is.

[@KeithThompson52]

Listen, to all the naysayers let me ask you something; What exactly does it mean to be God? Think about what it means to actually be the creator. People who say that they don’t like the idea of God having predestined every single aspect of life are actually saying that they do not desire a God who is in complete control which is another way of saying “I desire to suppress who God is/or I hate God”. Either God is omnipotent and omniscient or he’s not God, there is no in-between. Secondly, if you truly understand Grace, having a God that is not in complete control is absolutely terrifying and leaves much doubt to our very own salvation. This erroneous view of God is derived from Men making God out to be small, somewhat equal to themselves.

[@CanadianOrth]

God Is powerful enough to create agents with self determining movements of the will. Omniscience doesn't require a decree for knowledge. Knowing is not determining. Calvinism does not allow even Christ to have free human will. Monoenergism and Monotheletism are old and condemned heresies.

[@KeithThompson52]

+CanadianOrth wrong, repent!

[@CanadianOrth]

+Keith Thompson Keith, hand waving will not correct Calvinism's defective Christology. This shows up often, like MacArthur insisting for decades that the Son is not eternally generated. And go ask Sproul why it is that he refuses to admit that God died on a cross. And why is it that Piper insists that evil is necessary....even for God, and that the full effulgence of his glory requires someone to mete out wrath upon. Tell the Holy Trinity that creation and evil are necessary amid the most pure loving communion and perichoresis of the divine Persons, having need of nothing.

[@KeithThompson52]

Repent

[@CanadianOrth]

+Keith Thompson I repented by forsaking Reformed Christology, which confuses Person and Nature and ends up Nestorianizing. Even the Lutherans have rightly charged you with this for centuries.

[@jeffweaver955]

I agree with God created us even though He knew we would fail. But failures not final, because He sent Jesus. It doesnt matter that we dont understand, we dont understand because we are not God. He knows.

[@gregorycallaway9537]

just because God knows your choice doesn't mean you can't still make it.

[@Pastor-Brettbyfaith]

Amen!

[@rickbaker261]

No one has argued otherwise. But, since God infallibly and exhaustively knows what will occur...you will make that choice, and you can not have chosen otherwise

[@2900405]

gregory callaway there are infinite factors to influence your choices so it's not your fault if you take bad decisions due to your ignorance and the fact that you're not perfect

[@anepicflyingbrick_4872]

From our pov we can still choose, but from God's, there is no choice.

[@JerrySpanglerJr]

Exactly. Well said. That, the freedom for man to choose right and wrong, is actually where the REAL "mystery" of God's sovereignty resides.

[@tomasbenedict8612]

Thank you for your admonition to not follow my heart. This is very good advice and I try to remind myself always in light of Jer.17:9 that I cannot trust my heart. I trust only what the word of God reveals to be true about it.

[@dver89]

Piper: "Everything, including every sinful thing, is ultimately governed by God." Also Piper: "The center of the solution to the problem is a choice you have to make about the cross" Someone explain to me how God can predetermine everything, down to the movement of a dust particle, and then Piper can say that I have a choice to make about the cross? If God predetermined everything, I can't see how there is any choice on our part.

[@timg4718]

Exactly Daniel. Well stated, my friend. I personally prefer Molinism as an explanation of God’s sovereignty. William Lane Craig describes it well and pulls Calvinism apart. The other issue I have is that Calvinism calls God the author of evil, and that everyone’s fate sealed from the conception of time. This theology caused many of my Christian friends to despise God and fall away. Mankind are responsible for our choices… We reap what we sow…Choose Jesus and reject sin… it’s up to us!

[@stevehardwick1578]

God's eternal, he knows who will reject him from before the foundation of the world. He plants the seed in the elect in order that they'll receive the gospel. Much of the scriptures we can't comprehend by either view on free will, it's above our pay grade. God used many evil people to achieve great things without them even knowing they were in his service. One day, believers will have all of these answers.

[@timg4718]

@@stevehardwick1578 I agree with you that one day we’ll know all the answers. However, I strongly disagree that God plants seeds into the elect. Do you have a verse for that?

[@stevehardwick1578]

@@timg4718 Ephesians 1 is a great example and there are many more, simply do a search.

[@stevehardwick1578]

@@timg4718 I'd suggest watching John MacArthur's videos on the subject of predestination. He's a great teacher and easy to follow.

[@robtyler5074]

God doesn't make anyone sin, but he uses everything,including our sin, for His glory. We worship and serve a very big God. I am God and there is no other.. Isaiah 46:9.

[@Idontlikethisever]

It's so seductive to talk about all this. Blessed the men or women that understand that not everything we can explain not all is revealed to us. Only what is nessisary to find and believe in jesus

[@hassantucker8273]

That’s total control and knowing that lifts the spirit. Because if you leave it up to us to have total control with our ego in charge may God help us all.

[@phillippasteur3904]

I agree, Pastor Brett, both Arminianism and Calvinism in their extreme forms are unbiblical in my view. If we emphasize man's autonomous free will we end in error. No one is saved because they chose to be saved, but because God chose to save them. And the foreknowledge spoken of in Romans 8 is personal foreknowledge, not factual knowledge. Obviously He knows everything, but God foreknows the elect personally. However taken to the extreme we also end in error with the assumption that we fully grasp the mystery of God's will and purpose and that God willed sin into existence. We lose our perspective of God's absolute and infinite holiness.But God must give us the will to believe. The new birth is like the experience of Lazarus who died and whose body was in a state of decay, and yet Jesus spoke life into a rotten corpse and resurrected him to life. So it is in the regeneration of a sinner dead in trespasses and sins.

[@1974jrod]

You say, "no one is saved because they chose to be saved, but because God chose to save them." I agree to a point. God says that he loved us first. That while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Why did Christ die? To demonstrate his love towards us. Correct? Did he not say that there is no greater love than a man lay his life down for his friend. So yes God did chose to save. But men do chose. Do they not? Did not Christ say to the theif, because of YOUR BELIEF, this day shall you be with me in paradise. Additionally, I did not read where Jesus forced the woman at the well to drink. What I am saying is that I think folks need to be careful using terms like elect and predestination in regards to salvation. It is easily construed into compulsory salvation instead of God's foreknowledge about ones salvation. There is a huge difference. I am certain scripture say that it is God's will that ALL should come to the knowledge of the truth. And it seems to me that if the rich man went to hell, God's will won't always be done. And, I am very certain, scripturally speaking, God didn't elect the rich man to hell or it makes scripture contrary. Also, did you say that God willed sin into existence? I was kind of confused with that part of your statement.

[@charliehutch3533]

Who the fuck authorized your ass to speak for god? any of you? because you are in direct contradiction of Yeshua's words. yep, that's right; "the kingdom of god is within you' ' those that are blind can see, and those that can see are blind'... a fitting choice for those of you who purport to 'understand' and 'know' ...

[@phillippasteur3904]

1974jrod No, brother, my point was that hardshell 5 point calvinism leads people to the conclusion that God created evil. He.of course did not.

[@phillippasteur3904]

Charlie Hutch Jesus died for you and wants to save you! The Bible declares that no profane person such as yourself will ever enter the kingdom! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved before it is too late!

[@1974jrod]

Phillip Bassman Yes, I don't remember specifically what we were talking about, but yes I agree. 5 point is very dangerous. It is on par with Islam in that God is the creator of evil instead of the creator of free will. I can't help how I feel, and when I realized that 5 point teaches that God in fact did predestinate some to eternal hell because he got glory from this, that's when I got as angry about "religion" as I ever had in my life. 5 point makes Jesus the father of lies instead of resting upon Satan where it belongs, and as Christ told us it belongs.

[@jackcross8616]

I understand the issues some have with these ideas but for me it leads me to having a stronger desire to worship God

[@marykinuthia5780]

Glory to God, awesome, no wonder we are told to fear God.

[@BT3701]

If God predetermined the sin I commit then why am I held responsible for it and eternally damned for something God predetermined that I should commit?

[@amandah.2202]

Exactly if he made us sinners why is he taking it out in us? And then why do Christians say babies are born pure if we all are destined to sin? Also sin is determined by what society says is a sin not god ..... the Bible has been manipulated and changed to fit the man in powers agenda

[@BT3701]

@@amandah.2202 Somethings we now no longer consider to be sin were considered to be sin in earlier years. If we say that sin is what society says it is, then that means that what is and isn't sin has an evolving standard. But God is the one who sets the standard of right and wrong and his standard doesn't change. What God said was sin years ago is still sin in God's eyes today.

[@amandah.2202]

BT3701 exactly my point sin isn’t what gods says sins are it’s created by human

[@BT3701]

@@amandah.2202 Man wouldn't know what is and isn't sin unless God had first told us what it was by giving us 10 Commandments

[@amandah.2202]

Did you not say sin changes?

[@nomfundomasuku2443]

I love this humble man of God💓💓💓🙌

[@evanu6579]

Nomfundo Masuku He preaches a satanic doctrine. He makes God out to be ore evil than Satan. Actually he makes Satan out to be a victim of God’s.

[@Mike-qt7jp]

In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."

[@ggates5371]

When I try, I fail. When I stop trying, I succeed. Blessed is the name of the Lord.

[@johannwilder1437]

I'm shocked that all these comments seem to be saying Piper is wrong. He is actually correct. Have you not read the Bible? Paul, himself, repeatedly told the Jews (and others) that their sin of killing Christ was pre-ordained by God. Those of you who disagree with Piper here are arguing against Scripture. Is it hard to grasp? Sure. Does it seem somewhat cruel? Sure. But this is undeniably what Scripture says.

[@jeanclink8199]

Johann Wilder So, God is cruel, but deal with it, because that's what this man thinks scripture is saying? This kind of interpretation does not point to Jesus Christ. Think on this a while: "39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life."

[@Lucas747G]

Johann Wilder amen. protestants idolising the bible

[@paulwilfridhunt]

No those sins weren't pre ordained by God just because He knew they were going to happen.

[@kobidobidog]

Wrong. Corinthians 2:8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; That is where Lucifer wanted to put the unseen Father God. That is why Jesus was crucified.

[@JesustheonlywaytoGod89]

god never created sins, the old tstament says clearly we die and have flesh because satan and his demons and our choice to follow him since the beggining... so, no, god didnt crated sins ... and god cant kill satan neither, because demons and angelsare astral body (spirit) so they cant be killed even by god, they have been created to last for ever (that's why he casted out lucifer, because lucifer has no flesh and that's why during exorcism you cast out demons and do not kill them because they are spirit not flesh... god wouldnt have sent his son dying on the cross if he coul just kill satan...

[@johndisalvo6283]

"God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all" 1 John 1:5 My God did NOT predetermine sin.

[@Android-ds9ie]

Your god is different than my god ha ha

[@scottleary8468]

@john disalvo "Therefore [God] has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens" (Romans 9:18). Explain the obvious meaning of that verse away with your Arminian theology!

[@scottleary8468]

@@lightisgreaterthandarkness Obviously you have never read any Calvinist writings! Calvinism does not teach that God is the author of sin but He is sovereign over sin! Nothing can happen unless God sovereignly wills it, even the sinful acts of human beings. Otherwise, we are left with a limited deistic "god" and not the supreme "God" described in Scripture! Jude 4 even says that apostates are "foreordained" or "marked out for this condemnation."

[@stephaniesykesdavis]

Yes he did. He created evil.

[@johndisalvo6283]

Stephanie Sykes-Davis You’re a deluded woman, drunk on calvinism

[@musicprodave]

He is saying God is responsible for rape murder and heresy? absurd! Calvinism is really out there. What does he mean we have to make a “choice about the cross”?? thats a contradiction of Calvinism.

[@rudyferrell]

You'll never understand unless you're filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit told me that everything is EXACTLY the way it's supposed to be. Just because you don't know the reason , doesn't make it not true.

[@fynix.]

Choice =/= Free choice We have our own will but it is ultimately not free. We are either slaves to sin or redeemed by Christ.

[@simonm.castrojr2787]

God gives us the earth to take dominion of. If evil is in our lives it is our fault because we our negligent of His Will and what Christ has done to Sin & Sickness. It is not Gods Will you be in Sin or be Sick. He has set us free from that Kingdom of darkness. We are free in Christ and been commanded to free others with the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. Thank you Jesus.

[@nachoooooo800]

If God determines everything, then He sent Christ to redeem the very sins he determined to happen... He has to redeem his own choices?

[@rocketsurgeon1746]

How dare you show inconsistencies with Calvinism! Who are you oh man? :-)

[@MrJking1962]

"choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve." I have a choice. I am not a bio-puppet. I am made in the image of God. God is not cruel and does not create beings that have no chance to escape damnation.

[@ianpaterson4956]

Remember Jesus himself said he was the friend of sinners.

[@GoogleUserGoogle1]

"The choice" in that verse is between two different false gods. Joshua 24:15 ESV - And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell.

[@nyambsdeborah8954]

@@GoogleUserGoogle1 Still a choice

[@nyambsdeborah8954]

@@scottleary8468 Can we choose NOT to sin?

[@nyambsdeborah8954]

@@scottleary8468 But do I have a choice in the matter of weather I lie or telling the truth. Can an unsaved person choose to do right? Not living a holy Life, but to do right. Can he choose to tell the truth. Can he choose not to rob a bank? Can he choose not to beat his wife and kids? And if so, how can he choose since God ordained Him for hell? And do we have a choice to do wrong? Or is it just Adam's sin?

[@ronarprefect7709]

I had a thought, and it may be wrong, for--though I can claim some intelligence according to man's standards--I am an idiot when it comes to understanding God. My thought was that ALL good comes from God and that God allows evil but does not author it. Its shape, form, and extent are determined by God through His good and all-knowing influence on the universe surrounding the evil. If I am wrong in this don't fail to correct me and quote some scripture to me. It is easy for me to be wrong.

[@josephgoudreau7425]

Nothing is random although we perceive our lives to be random it is not, thank God life isn't meaningless!

[@jdubrey77]

How comforting... we are in HIS palm.

[@maluill]

Or under his fist, depending on your predestination of course, so chill and wait and see

[@spoopyradicalsnake]

the bible just opened my eyes today. this is true.

[@sonicgauge1]

This scrambles my brain.. the more I try to make sense of such things the more elusive it gets...

[@johnneufeld]

Same here dude sometimes I feel crazy trying to figure out how God works😅 I’m just gonna have faith and let God do the work.

[@caraisabelladeborah]

“These things have driven people mad”

[@muhammadamjad2614]

Same here... seems like no clear answer anywhere

[@Yuno08888]

@@muhammadamjad2614 hopefully you're not learning about allah here cause if you are. My duuude, Allah works in a very different way.

[@muhammadamjad2614]

@@Yuno08888 And what that way is? can you explain My duuude

[@TheeeGrappler]

Foreknowing and predetermining are different

[@superdude1408]

I think this might be the key

[@perrysingh917]

Also, foreknowledge is not causative.

[@JesterStuttle]

Foreknowledge and not causative is not sovereign. Foreknowing of God (in the peers down the corridors sense) also suggests God is bound by time. Making God subject to time, makes time a god, in which God is subjected to. Is God the creator of time or has it always been?

[@vdrmusicofficial]

Foreknowledge does not suggest God is bound by time. He has foreknowledge precisely BECAUSE He is outside of time. We see time linearly as we go from past to present to future in our lives, but He stands outside of it and sees it all at once. That is why He foreknew us because He sees the end from the beginning.

[@trispycee]

Not 'always' I would say. I would say that God predetermined what would happen, but He surely didn't intend or want it all to happen. His giving of choice is real I believe... God doesn't pretend to give us a choice to sin or not to sin, He does and our nature does what it does.

[@jenniferross4945]

God created Lucifer knowing Lucifer (Satan) was going to rise against Him. And yes, I believe God created Lucifer to use against Him. He predestined and predetermined all this before the foundations of the world. God predestined Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit. That’s why the tree was there. That’s why Satan was there to tempt her. He predestined Joseph to be sold by his brothers, and Joseph even knew as time went on that it was Gods will for his life that it happened that way. Yes, God created good and evil. The first evil he created was Lucifer’s fall. He created Hell because he knew that He would have Satan and all unbelievers thrown into there. To deny that God somehow doesn’t know these things will happen, or doesn’t have control of it all, would make Him not be God. He is sovereign and all His will comes to pass and no one can stop it as He says. It’s hard for us as humans to comprehend it all. Because people have made God out to be a soft effeminate, and He’s not. Scriptures all over the Bible shows that God is in control. It’s very complex. Hard for us to truly wrap our minds around. But evil was created by God. Satan was predestined to be used to tempt us and try us. It’s all part of Gods plan.

[@TheFinalJigsaw]

exactly

[@mikem4883]

This is the best explanation of God's Sovereignty over everything including the crucifixion I ever heard. Thank you

[@Mike-qt7jp]

Here is absolute Biblical proof that God does NOT cause or determine everything; In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."

[@mikem4883]

@@Mike-qt7jp hi Mike. Not even a sparrow falls to the ground without God's consent. We know that God does not tempt with sin but look at these two verses. I chronicals 21:1 and 2 Sam 24:1. God tempts no one but uses Satan and others. On 2peter 3:9 we see in verse 8 that Peter is writing to the brethren ( the elect). The beginning chap 1 we see his audience for the writing also is the Saints. Anyway. We may have a difference, but, as long as Jesus Christ is your Savior and you wish to produce fruit for His glory, then I love you brother, no matter what. And I thank you for your efforts to correct me, even if my thoughts are different. Doctrine does not save us, nor works of any kind. The Gospel of Grace alone produces good works and the desire to please God. God allows much, like the crucifixion, yet even that was ordained Acts 4.. So we’re you. eph 1:4 God bless you. Mike

[@Mike-qt7jp]

I am not interpreting anything, just quoting scripture. It says, God did NOT command the people to make high places to sacrifice their children to Baal, and yet, they did. By the way, you said, "Not even a sparrow falls to the ground without God's consent." Consent is NOT the same as causing it to happen. You are not really addressing this direct Quote from the Bible: ", “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” I am not really arguing with you, just the idea of "Hyper Calvinism." God tells Adam and Eve, do not eat from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and yet He makes them eat from that very tree, since as per Calvinism, EVERYTHING is God's will. God gives the Ten Commandments, thou shall have no other gods before me, and then makes people worship false gods. God says, do not take God's name in vain, and then makes countless millions do that very thing. God says, do not kill, steal, commit adultery etc and then makes countless millions do the very things He says, don't do. A serial child molesting rapist/murderer is simply doing what God has ordained for him to do? You think of all the evil that is perpetrated on innocent people by evil, wicked, satanically driven individuals, and you want me to believe that God 's will is being carried out? The Bible says, God is holy, righteous, and full of mercy. AND the Bible says, God is love. God's will is not being carried out, at least not in the way Calvinists say. @@mikem4883

[@mikem4883]

@@Mike-qt7jp hi Mike Good to hear from you, my brother. I truly believe in God's sovereignty and that ALL things will work together for good. I don't pretend to understand it all, but, it’s a scary thing to believe God is wringing His hands in world events or even in tragic crimes. God could stop all of it. Isa 45:7 case in point. Or ordering JOsHUA to kill every man, woman, beast, in Jerico, or killing all but 8 in-the flood. And wars? Ordained . God lessens the restraints, and today we see what man is capable of. God hardens hearts, ( Pharaoh) or saves whom He chooses. Eph 1:4, acts 13:48, etc. God did not cause Adam nor Eve to sin. Satan did. God tested Job-with Satan. God ordained Judas to betray Christ, and for the exact change. 30 pcs of silver. Anyway, If I am wrong, I am still glad I worship a God who has total control of events and people, and will judge the evil doers. Acts 17 he chose the bounds of our habitation, our birth and death, before we were ever born. Anyway, I hope you will have a blessed day. As far as God ordaining everything, , I believe He has His perfect ordained will, and has also ordained permissive will ,and that only to a point where God draws the line. Romans 9 is all about it. Well for now, take care. Mike

[@zacharybeauford2244]

Is a gross extrapolation to say that because God ordained the death of His Son therefore He ordains all sin!

[@EdgeOfEntropy17]

Did God know that Adam and Eve would fall? Yes He did. So why does He place them in a garden with the tree that can bring about death? I think you are missing the entire point here. God knew that you were gonna sin and those who will go to Hell, God knew about, and STILL God allowed us all to be born. He could have stopped all sin before it ever happened, but He created a tree that could cause Eve to sin, and thus all of mankind with her. God knew, and yet STILL did not stop it. Now, why would God do that? Could it be that God has purpose on sin? Could it be that God is glorified in the punishment of wickedness?

[@michaelbain399]

@@EdgeOfEntropy17 Ezekiel 33:11 does say that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. So why would he predetermine who would reject him and die in their sins?

[@seeinglight]

Michael Bain I surmise that God is glorified and honored in the exercise of bringing His perfect judgement against those He’s bound over to sin. This does not mean that He enjoys or finds pleasure in the vanquishing of those He created in His image and blessed. The esteem of God may be present when the painful justice of God is exhibited.

[@EdgeOfEntropy17]

@@michaelbain399 Anytime we ask the question, "why" in relation to "why" God does things, we have only the Scripture to teach us. We cannot stand in the place of the Almighty and say "This is why God does that" because we are finite beings with very limited knowledge of God's overarching plan. The fact is, God find no pleasure in the death of the wicked because God is love and God is merciful. But that does not negate His judgment, for sin is an offense to Him, and He would be unjust in allowing wickedness to continue without judgement. Just as He is love, He is also just, and only God knows "why" He does anything at all, save for the glimpses he reveals to us in His word. God bless.

[@albinsiby729]

Don't blame him too much. Piper's tok old... and old age makes you a bit Stupid.

[@rideforrestride]

2790 Comments. I would say people are still really interested in this. Thanks for the vid.

[@katym.8250]

Please hope no one like this ever comes to comfort you after a horrific tragedy. Just know God is there comforting you.

[@L.Fontein7]

No, for me it's just the opposite. Think about it this way... If God does orchestrate everything including the tragedies, that means He is in them with us and there's a reason that he orchestrated those tragedies even though we don't understand why or why me. Better that than a God who stands off to the sidelines wringing his hands because he's left things to chance or because he's not behaving as a sovereign in control of everything. If God is in everything then there's a reason and utility for it for us or others even though we often don't understand the why of it or even like it. But if God isn't in control of it then that means that we can't count on Him for anything really and what happened was not done to us with any particular purpose or reason in mind.

[@S4SuperStarSteveSavage]

Pastor John said starting at 2:11 " Every horrible thing and every sinful thing is ultimately governed by God ... and that is a problem but ..." I really don't see the problem since God created evil or the predisposition for evil. If He didn't then there's an outside force that operated out of God's power. That exists without God's will. That cause God to have to react against His will to save his creation. That would mean the evil is as powerful or more powerful than God.

[@marcelniles342]

How great is our GOD...❣❣❣

[@DashieNCheekie]

Not great at all

[@heymilli]

@@DashieNCheekie Infinitely great!

[@littlelylygirl]

Now that makes me think about the passages in the Old Testament when God says "I will harden his heart". I never really realised what it meant.

[@trebmaster]

Just remember the verses before that say Pharaoh hardened his own heart. At a certain point, God began hardening as a judgment for Pharaoh first hardening it himself.

[@jenniferross4945]

@@trebmasterwrong.

[@SELLINGNEWHAVEN]

"God does all for his Glory, which is our Glory" I like that !

[@iyadmerhi2297]

Look to Genesis 50:20

[@livingforjesus8551]

So, God made that person rape those kids, for his glory. No, I think not. So, God made that person to be prideful, and made that person to lust, for his glory. I think not, because scripture tells us, that pride and lust come from the world.

[@johnacree7977]

Calvinists say God is good, but then they say He predetermines EVERY act that occurs, and man has no freewill whatsoever. So, by their own doctrine, they assert that God is the author of evil.

[@jeffreylardizabal3964]

“Whosoever” disproves Calvinism ALL we who know God is love, know from 1 John 1:5, that "in him is no darkness whatsoever"; and we furthermore know, from 1 John 1:26 that "All that is in the world, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." God foreknew his blessings for those, in him, would be blessed with the same blessings he chose for those he foreknew - Israel would be his people (Jacob's people), as well as whosoever believes in him, through their belief in Jesus Christ, the firstborn unto Salvation, whose co heirs, are all who believe in him, "whosoever" as John 3:16 states, without one "but" added to it, but what is stated in it "but have eternal life." Calvinists have confused foreknowledge with authorship, and this argument just proved that God is light, in him is no darkness whatsoever, man is responsible for his sins, and thank God for Jesus Christ, in that, through him alone we can have eternal life - "WHOSOEVER" believes in him. Paul, in Galatians chapter 5, argues over Peter's blindsightedness of the circumcised and uncircumcised by stating "I wish they were cut off," (Galatians 5:12 - meaning - those agitators would both be excommunicated as well as, disemboweling themselves), and with such colorful arguments, audacity, and sense of finality, he demonstrated truly, God's hatred of SELF-righteousness, versus his love, shown in his mercy towards sinners turning towards him, whose reward is Salvation, sealed the Moment they believe in he who forgives the sins of the entire world, as clearly shown in Ephesians 1:13-14, which illustrates the role played by the Holy Spirit, sealing the promise and blessings of eternal life, for whosoever believes. Salvation is a gift of God, whose love cannot be removed, as Paul stated in Romans 8:38-39, and is for ALL who believe in him, Jew and Gentile alike. God, help Calvinists of all shades and colors see through and beyond their filter; and instead, use the lens of the Holy Spirit, who shall remind them of everything Jesus said through his Word, instead of leaning unto John Calvin's understandings, stemming from his incorrect assessment, as he argued "we are doomed from the womb." No, we are not; "whosoever believes" proves otherwise...

[@scottleary8468]

@ Jeff Lardizabal God help your Arminian arrogance! The word "whosoever" is in the KJV, not in the original Greek!

[@lachyjames1528]

Yeah um, "whosoever" is not in the greek

[@scottleary8468]

@@lachyjames1528 Plus, Calvinists do not believe that God is the author of sin but He is sovereign over sin. God permits it and limits it and exercises power over it. God doesn't cause sin (a holy God cannot do so), but He does preordain it. Jude tells us that the false teachers of his time were "foreordained to this condemnation" (Jude 4). God isn't the author of sin, but He is sovereign over it. God is sovereign over everything (Ephesians 1:11). God exercises a very meticulous providence!

[@DougCameraMan]

Do you treat other people's children as well as you treat your own? No. You don't mistreat them but you don't love them in the same way that you love and correct your own. Some people are God's children and some people are the devil's children. Jesus made this very clear as the gospel of St. John tells it. Jesus told a group of people who mocked him that they couldn't hear his words, they couldn't believe him. He knew that they weren't deaf, so why did he tell them they couldn't hear him? Because they were not God's children, but instead, they were children of the devil. He went on to say that if they were God's children they would hear him. So if there were two groups of people then, there have always been two groups of people. When you understand this very basic principle that we are not all alike no matter what the world tells us, it can begin to help you make sense of it all. The next time you hear someone say that all people are God's children, you should know that they are contradicting what Jesus taught. You either believe Jesus or you don't.

[@siquod]

"Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to *become* children of God". You seem to assume some people as babies are already better persons than the rest. No. We're all born depraved sinners. We need to be born again to become God's children. Before that, we aren't.

[@ctcampbell]

God is in the heavens and He does all that He pleases

[@SpotterVideo]

Did God cause Satan to rebel against Him? Did God make Adam eat of the forbidden fruit? Did God make Cain kill his brother? If God is the author of sin, why does He compel men to "repent"? Foreknowledge of men making certain choices, does not make God the author of those choices.

[@Android-ds9ie]

@@SpotterVideo yes he does everything

[@MrBazinthenow]

@@Android-ds9ie It pleases God that man chooses to believe the Gospel .

[@Android-ds9ie]

Really

[@jasmeetstudiesmotivation230]

God stands for greatest omnipresent dimensionless

[@Pastor-Brettbyfaith]

How can we make a choice about the cross if every decision is already determined by God? Calvinists are confused, and if you let them, they will confuse you also. So, are you saying that God decreed child rape? James White says yes. If God is the one who decreed all things, both good and evil, then where is culpability? There is no need for judgement, and what sense is there in preaching the gospel? God knows who will be saved, and in fact has already saved them. I am so grateful for the neutral perspective God has given me. The Bible teaches both predestination and free will. Since both are Biblical doctrines, how do we bring the two together, forming one cohesive truth? Understanding foreknowledge and God's permissive will is key to understanding God's plan. Romans 8:29 is my starting point. The Greek proginosko can only be translated foreknow or foresee. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate..." Peter also used the same word, in the same context. 1Pet.1:2 reads: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..." God knew what we would do when the gospel was preached to us, then allowed our life to take its specific course, thus bringing us to that exact moment of choice, because he knew what we would choose. God never violates our free will to choose! If he forced us to love him, is that really love? Isn't that called rape? The Holy Spirit is the spirit of prophecy; so to deny God's foreknowledge is to deny the prophetic aspect of Scripture. We also need to consider Job. In the book of Job, we see God's permissive will in action. He allowed the devil to afflict Job. God did not do it. The devil asked for permission and God granted it, with the exception of sparing the life of Job. When the Bible ascribes evil to God, it is simply saying that God permitted evil. Every one is tempted when they are drawn away by their own lust. The controversy is settled in one verse of Scripture. Proverbs 16:9 answered this lifelong search for me. "A man's heart (or mind) devises his way, but the Lord directs his steps." In this verse we see both free will choice and sovereign direction. God put the tree in the garden so that Adam would have a choice. While Adam made the wrong choice, God foreknew it and therefore had a backup plan. Calvinists believe in a God that forces himself upon his subjects. John Calvin forced himself upon his subjects, and now his followers are trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us. If you are saved, you were predestined, but only because of God's foreknowledge. Don't believe the heretical lies of Calvinists. Pray for them, but don't follow them. Your testimony will be silenced. When have you ever heard a Calvinist give an altar call? Choose you this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord! in Jesus name, Pastor Brett

[@ROYBOY322]

If everything is predetermined, doesnt that prove that free will is just an illusion? That directly contradicts christian belief.

[@karmasutra4774]

Then what was the point of it all? Agree that is strange

[@EmeraldPixelGamingEPG]

It does. Trust me don't be a calvinist lol

[@Key-ps2iy]

Free will is the ability to choose something freely, the ability to want to do something. It’s not the ability to act on your own without God. That’s important to understand God is omniscient and omnipotent and of course that means that everything that is happening in this world is caused by him, he wills and does everything, otherwise he wouldn’t be God. So yes, according to the Bible everything is pure fate and predetermined. If you say, that this kind of predetermined world doesn’t make sense, then you don’t understand what it means to be a creator and what it means to be its creation. It automatically means it’s only important what God wants, not what his creation wants. As a creator you can wreck your creation or not like I destroy the gift wrap and get rid of it but keep the present. It’s not important what the gift wrap wants, it’s important what I who just wants to keep the present wants. When I complain that everything is predestined and God does what he wants, it's like my gift wrap complaining about why I do what I want. Also, Saying people could choose to sin is very stupid. It’s funny because that thought denies God. Only God is holy, only he can give you the ability not to sin. People who are like Yeah, but Satan chose to sin that’s why God will punish him with hell is so weird. In the beginning every living being God created didn’t sin at all by his protection. Now you want to tell me there is some kind of creation of God like an angel who is like „No God, I don’t care about your protection. I will sin now“ hahahah what’s that being who can do that. That would mean that today everyone in heaven could do the same thing the devil did in heaven. No difference. Revelation 17,17 Philippians 2,13 Romans 9,19

[@LitoLochoss]

Not really bible never hints free will

[@BabliucAlina]

@@Key-ps2iy so i can’t blame the wrapping paper for going to hell if I do whatever I want with it just because I want to. Sure, it’ll go to hell, but in that case, I can’t blame it

[@FutureNotFixed]

"It does not say God turned it around for good. It actually says God intended it for good." That's right. Remember, God intended it for good. It does NOT SAY that God decreed for Joseph's brothers to mistreat him. So remember that.

[@fredlada1634]

He did planned his brothers to hate on him and mistreat him, just like God gave Joseph his dreams, and place in Egypt, his time in prison and as a ruler, and his death too. And God does all of these things for each and everyone. You have no control over anything whatsoever. Dont worry man, even before Abraham was, you are, and so i am. The end game of all of this is to become gods, and that too is predetermined by God to happen, and there is no escaping it.

[@fynix.]

​@@fredlada1634? Are u Mormon

[@sskuk1095]

To me, this is a bit too much determinism and I can not quite reconsile myself with this view!

[@mjd.136]

If anyone thinks man controls even an inch of anything, you are gladly mistaken. I believe that man thinks that because deep down inside they don’t want to be controlled, their pride kicks in, the rebellion from birth kicks in, and everyone is dead in their trespasses therefore it’s common nature to assume you are greater then you are and you aren’t. You have done and created nothing. You didn’t create the air you breathe, you didn’t create the gravity that holds you down, you didn’t create the sun, moon and stars in the sky, you literally didn’t even create a hair on your body, so why is man still thinking they have a say, or right, to anything??? It’s pride, arrogance, sinful human nature from the start, and it doesn’t want to submit to God. If you read anything of the Bible and true people who have a relationship with God read Old Testament too, God in every portion of everything has control of everything! So if he has control of every single portion of everything that is in the Bible and that translates too our true life then he has complete control of us, and every single thing in our life’s even the things we say, think, do is ultimately to his plan and glory. People who speak tongue in cheek never read the Bible even books of the Bible that most would never even go to yet are some of the most important! Anyone who believes God’s word to be true, because it is, go to the book of Job and let me know how he responds to Job, or how God responds in Ezekiel, or how God responds in Judges. He didn’t ask if things were going to happen he told them, this is going to happen. And it did. No one has true free will other then God himself, he can do as he pleases, we cannot.

[@AVB2-LST1154]

AMEN! Psalm 135:6 -The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths. Proverbs 16:33 - The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. Deut 31:6 "Do not fear or be in dread of them, for it is the Lord your God who goes with you. He will not leave you or forsake you.” Psalm 33:10 - The LORD foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples. Proverbs 19:21 “Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but it is the Lord’s purpose that prevails.” Prov 16:9 “In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps.” The term free will is found NO WHERE in the New Testament.

[@jackshadow325]

Calvinism is self contradictory. “You have to make a choice...” “Everything was predestined...”

[@ErynIstar]

Our human minds cannot comprehend it but it is true. It seems like contradiction but somehow there is a harmony between mans free will and Gods Sovereignty over the whole Universe.

[@davidw.4524]

It's simple we have laws in the constitution (predetermined?) , we know exactly what will follow if we break them(fate) but most still don't give a damn and breaks them anyways (choice). So de we blame the law makers, the law breakers or the choice they made?

[@EvaElyse]

God's sovereignty is one of His most interesting and amazing attributes!

[@explodingrubberducky797]

God does not need to control everything to be sovereign

[@002kenken]

@@explodingrubberducky797 But isn't it not the meaning of sovereignty?

[@bstein9500]

​@@002kenken Sovereignty is the right to rule. It is a declaration of Kingship. 'God knows the end from the beginning' is not the same as saying God determines every step in between.

[@shepherd7744]

​@@002kenkenno it's not the meaning, sovereignty means God chooses however he wants to rule, NOT as the calvinist defines it, only in calvinism is Sovereignty described as total determinism, NO WHERE ELSE would that be defined as sovereignty. Redefining everything, that what the calvinist must do to holding to their precious doctrines that they have elevated over the Word of God

[@robert1411]

@@bstein9500what about Ephesians 1:11 (for example): God “works all things according to the counsel of His will”

[@FutureNotFixed]

Norse god worship has been overthrown. The One true God who made heaven and earth who shall have no other gods before him has revealed himself in history through the prophets, in great signs and in sending his Son Jesus Christ who was raised from the dead in accordance with the oracles of the Holy Prophets. This is the God who said his dominion will be over all the earth. His reign shall not end and he will show all the gods of the nations to be false. He has done so, and after singularity comes, Jesus will return. God's glory will be known everywhere and the gods of the nations will be but a sad memory in history.

[@shiphrahhopeful]

*10 Things Consistent Calvinists SHOULD Say (But Usually Don’t):* 1) A Calvinist, speaking to a lost sinner- “Jesus might not have died for you. However, Jesus did die for me and NO, that doesn’t mean that God is ‘playing favorites’.” 2) A Calvinist quotes Acts 17:30-31 and then says this, to a lost sinner - “That doesn’t mean that you CAN repent, though. God must first regenerate you (make you born again), BEFORE you CAN repent. God may not want you to be saved. He may have predestined you for Hell, from eternity past. That means that you may not be a part of the ‘all men, everywhere’ that God has commanded to repent.” 3) A Calvinist quotes John 3:16 and then says this, to a lost sinner - “God may not love you. You may not be a part of ‘the world’, since ‘the world’ in this verse only means ‘the world of the elect’ and not ALL of humankind.” 4) A Calvinist, speaking to a lost sinner - “God is angry with the wicked everyday, even though he predestined/decreed/ordained you to be wicked! I know that doesn’t make sense to you, but that is because you have a depraved mind. Who are you, oh man, to reply against God?!? Who are you, to use Logic?!? Don’t you know that Calvinism invented Presuppositional Apologetics?!? Only Calvinist can use logic!!” 5) A Calvinist, speaking to a lost sinner who is mocking him - “God predestined/decreed/ordained you to mock Him like this, yet He is not the ‘author’ of your mocking.” 6) A Calvinist, speaking to a newborn baby they are holding, in front of the parents of the newborn baby - “You’re not innocent or cute! You’re a CHILD OF WRATH because a man ate a piece of fruit around 6,000 years ago! You are GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY of his sin!” 7) A Calvinist, speaking to their 7 year old - “I’m sorry Johnny, but you may not be a part of God’s elect. God may have predestined you for Hell and there’s nothing that you or I can do about it.” 8) A Calvinist speaking to another Calvinist, who asked him to go out on the streets witnessing - “There’s no reason for me to go out witnessing tonight. God will save whomever He has decreed to save. He doesn’t need my help. He is sovereign. I am going to stay home and watch college football, instead.” 9) After a Calvinist has sinned, he prays a prayer of confession- “Thank you God, for decreeing my sin and then decreeing my repentance. I don’t understand it all, but you obviously have decreed that as well. And as far as I understand, you have decreed that I will keep sinning and keep confessing, everyday for the rest of my life, even though you ‘want me to be holy’. Then, when I ‘get to Heaven’, you will decree that I never sin again. How glorious is your wisdom, oh God. Who can understand it? Amen.” 10) A Calvinist, praying for lost sinners, before he goes out to preach - “God, I know that you have decreed that most of these people will be damned and that very few will be saved. I’m just thankful that I was unconditionally elected and that you have decreed to use me to bring some of the other elect ones to salvation, irresistibly. Yet, I am not a puppet and you don’t force anyone to be saved.” I actually am glad that most Calvinists are inconsistent enough not to say the above things. The less their doctrine is spread, the better. The less their doctrine is spread, the less people will be turned away from Christianity and become Atheists. If you are a Calvinist, then you need to either become consistent or give up your false doctrine. Why don’t you preach your beliefs on the street? Why don’t you share these things in witnessing encounters? Why don’t you tell little children, babies and the parents of such children/babies, the truth? Why don’t you incorporate your doctrines into your prayers? Is it because you don’t really believe what you say you believe? Is it because you are scared to share them? Is it because you know that they don’t make any sense and that you have no logical defense for them? Is it because you have no Biblical defense for your doctrines? You truly have no excuse. If you are right, concerning your theology, you will give an account to your “god” on judgment day, for being ashamed and for not sharing the whole truth (

[@markdavid4168]

Hmm, thats very interesting insight you have really. For me, (just my thoughts only..might not be true), you can also take that up to Jesus too. If you think thats inconsistent, then think it this way. 1.) Jesus should have consistently said to the sinners that "hey, you cant come and believe in me. Only if God allows it, then you can." 2.) He should have consistently said "do you know why you dont hear my words? Because youre not of God" 3. He should have consistently said "do you know why you dont believe me? Because you are not of my sheep." 4. He should have consistently said "hey, in order for you to be a Christian, you need to be born again. (And remember, no baby or no one decides to be born. He just is. Why? God ultimately decides who will born) 5. He should have consistently say "hey, if you come to me, it is only because the Father gave you to me. If you do not come to me, it is because the Father did not give you to me." 6. Jesus should have consistently said "Hey, I get to choose who I want to reveal the Father. Unless I reveal it to you, you cant know the Father." Now, the above things are Jesus are supposed to consistently say. 1. John 6:44 ; John 6:65 2. John 8:47 3. John 10:26 4. John 1:13 ; John 3:5-8 5. John 6:37 6. Matthew 11:27 Your thoughts?

[@shiphrahhopeful]

Mark David This is a misinterpretation of concerning the drawing and coming to Christ. In the process of bringing sinners to salvation one of the many steps given by John is the act of "drawing" (Greek, helkuō) by the Father. It is the Father’s will that sinners come to Jesus, and yet, as Jesus says, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44). This is clearly stated: "no one can come unless drawn by the Father". But this is one place where you Calvinists make a huge mistake. You interpret this “drawing” to be "selective" (applied only to the “elect”) and "irresistible" (necessarily resulting in faith, apart from any act of human will). Both ideas are seriously false. The divine drawing is indeed powerful, but it is both universal and resistible. That it is universal is seen in John 12:32, where Jesus, using the same word for “draw” (helkuō) that he used in 6:44, says, “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” Here he is talking about the gospel message of the cross (see v. 33), which exerts its drawing power on the hearts of ALL who hear it; but only SOME respond positively to it. Which brings me to another step in the conversion process, which is the stated means by which the drawing of 6:44 takes place. Jesus explains this drawing in the next verse (John 6:45) as being accomplished by God’s 'teaching': “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.” When sinners hear the inspired teaching of God’s prophets and apostles, they are drawn by the truth toward the light. ALL who hear the word are so drawn, as John 12:32 says; see also Romans 1:18; 10:14; and Hebrews 4:12 on the drawing power of the word. As the result of this divine teaching, the door is now opened to the sinner’s own participation in this journey to salvation. When the word is taught, says Jesus, “everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me” (John 6:45). Of course, all who are exposed to the teaching hear it, but not all learn from it. This learning is the result of another step of the salvation journey, namely, the involvement of the human will. Such learning does not automatically follow from hearing. In order to learn, one must will to open his or her mind to the meaning of the message, and must will to accept this meaning and to act upon it. God does not force this act of the will; it is a choice some sinners make and some refuse to make. Jesus speaks of this willing in John 7:17, “If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.” See also Matthew 16:24-25. Despite God’s own willing, drawing, and teaching, the human will at this point is decisive. Jesus declared that the Jewish leaders themselves were searching the Scriptures for the key to eternal life; but, he said, “You are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life” (John 5:40). See Matthew 23:37 again: Jesus wanted (thelō) to save his people, but they were NOT willing (thelō). They heard, but they refused to learn. When someone hears and learns from the teaching, this leads to another step in the conversion process, which is 'believing'. Those who will to learn from their hearing are ready to believe. They will to conform their minds to the truth of the gospel facts (the assent aspect of faith), and they will to surrender their hearts to the person of Christ (the trust aspect of faith). These are now ready to receive the gift of eternal life: “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life” (John 6:40). “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life” (John 6:47). See John 6:35; 7:38. Once this faith is present in the convert’s heart, another step occurs as the Father resumes his role in the overall process by engaging in the activity of giving. A specific act of giving now occurs, in which we see how John 6:65 is fulfilled. Specifically, the Father now grants something to the new believer-something that has to do with the Son. This act of giving or granting (Greek, didōmi) is explained in John 1:12, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name.” I.e., those who will to receive Jesus and to believe in his name are given the exousia (“right, power, authority”) to be a part of God’s family. Another way of putting this is that those who have been given the right to become children of God are now actually given to Jesus by the Father, so that we are now able to come to Jesus in order to receive eternal life. I.e., because we have been foreknown and wanted and drawn and taught, and because we have heard and willed and learned and believed, the Father now gives us to Jesus (John 6:37, 39; 17:2). This “coming to Jesus” is the climax of this whole process. As Jesus says, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst” (John 6:35). “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out” (John 6:37). And this is of course the essence of the key text, John 6:65: “For this reason I said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” As I stated above, this “coming to Jesus” is the final and climactic step in the process John is describing. This “coming” (Greek, erchomai) refers to the point where we enter into a life-giving relationship with Jesus. It is the point where we come into contact with the saving power of grace as it flows from Christ’s cross. Everything else is preparation for it. How is the above explanation different from Calvinism? It is different because it separates the various steps that lead up to the final step of “coming to Jesus,” and because it distinguishes the steps that are God’s actions from those that are human actions. For example, in John 6:44 (“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him”) Calvinists see this drawing and coming basically as a single act empowered by God. But the drawing and coming are quite distinct, and are separated by several other actions, some of which are God’s and some of which are those of the sinner. Also, the granting of the right to come to Jesus (John 6:65) is not a unilateral act by the Father but is the result of a series of related events which include acts of the sinner. The concluding bottom line is that the divine will does not work unilaterally (monergistically) in the salvation process. The human will is also involved, even decisively. Yes, divine drawing is necessary (John 6:44), but this drawing can be resisted (Matt. 23:37); the gift of John 6:65 can be refused: “You are unwilling to come to Me that you may have life” (John 5:40).

[@markdavid4168]

+truthdisciple oooh, interesting insight! I like how you look deep into each word, and give scriptural references. :-) Well, I would say this: A comparison to John 6:37a and John 6:44 shows that the divine drawing to salvation cannot be relegated to what is referred to as "prevenient grace." (Which you were talking about.) Scripture indicates that no "free will" exists in man's nature, for man is enslaved to sin (total depravity) and unable to believe apart from God's empowerment. (Rom.3:1-19; Eph. 2:1-3; 2 Cor 4:4; 2 Tim 1:9) While "whosoever will" may come to the Father, only those whom the Father gives the ability to will toward Him will actually come to Him. (again, compare John 6:37a and John 6:44). The drawing here is selective and efficacious (producing the desired effect) upon those whom God has sovereignly chosen for salvation (eg: those whom God has chosen will believe because Go has sovereignly determined that result from eternity past (Eph. 1:9-11) your thoughts?

[@dooglitas]

"That's a problem, yes, but..." Indeed it is a problem. If you believe God truly micromanages every event in the universe, especially every thought, word, and deed of every human being, then you truly do have a problem, an enormous, inescapable and unresolvable problem. You must conclude that every sin committed by every human being was actually forced upon each person by God Himself, as a puppet master controls the actions of his puppet. This leads to three inescapable conclusions: 1) Human beings are not responsible for their sins, since they have no choice in the matter and 2) God is the perpetrator of every sin that has ever been committed and 3) Redemption is irrelevant and the Cross has no meaning. No wonder people have been driven crazy by this doctrine. It's a crazy and irrational doctrine. The two solutions to this dilemma are either to conclude that this doctrine of extreme sovereignty of God is not correct or that the Bible is untrue and unreliable because it states that each person is responsible for his or her own sins and that there is no unrighteousness in God and that it is impossible for God to sin. For me the solution is simple. I do not see that this doctrine is truly taught in the Bible. The verse in Proverbs is only one verse, John Piper either misquotes it or is quoting an erroneous translation. It does not say what he claims it does.

[@johnmaina5878]

But, there are sufficient scriptures to show that God ordains sin

[@dooglitas]

JOHN MAINA Really? Could you please give those references? And, please, also explain how such references prove your point. Such an idea contradicts basic principles of scripture.

[@Aries_Luck]

I agree. I been struggling with this doctrine, and it has made me think of things that make me insane.

[@dooglitas]

***** The doctrine is erroneous. The true doctrines of God do not cause people to go insane. John Piper and all who teach this doctrine are teaching false doctrine. For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a SOUND MIND. (2Ti 1:7)

[@lillychambers-go4qz]

He chose his 12 disciples, even Judas, knowing he would fulfill prophecy by betraying him.

[@foodntradition]

Instead of arguing here just look at yourself and your relationship with God. Some people using such words that a godly person can't even use against a wretched sinner. Okay if Piper is wrong then who allowed you to judge him and use abusive words for him(Let only God be the judge) ?? Do you people learn it from your scripture?? Criticize your brother with abusive words, does your scripture teach you so?? One thing is clear Matthew 7:16 (You will recognize them by their fruits). Your abusive words show your fruits and your doctrine. Some say they know Jesus Christ but they will enjoy when their brother will go to hell. If we think we know everything about God and His word let's not waste our time abusing each other . Instead take the Gospel to those who never heard of it. Pray for those who you think are going in wrong direction. By showing your intellect here you can't please God.

[@tessalogan586]

Well said.

[@ianandpeejisiderio5060]

Few things to reflect on: The defense of "free will" hinges on the argument that man is born into this world "neutral" - having the "autonomy", to choose for himself, apart from either influences of God or the devil, to either do good or bad... Is this Biblical? A white lie and a murder, both are of equal gravity in God's court - and so is the sin that fuels disobedience, questions divine authority - the sin of Pride. So When God says He is Sovereign, what does He really mean by that? Do we say "Amen" to that or do we get offended by it, or simply say, "it depends"? Does His authority cover all things or does His jurisdiction end where man's "free will" begins? Is He the Ordainer of things or is He, just like man, "beholden" to what He, as many of us conveniently refer to it, "foresaw in advance"? And since He has surrendered to man the outcome of his own free will, can man "actually" derail God's agenda? Lastly, when Jesus died on the cross and uttered the words, "It is finished", did He actually finished the work of salvation or just made man "savable"? Does a slave (in bondage to sin) have the freedom to determine his fate? Is a dead person able to make himself hear, see, understand and receive the gospel, without the awakening of the Holy Spirit? And is a dead person, made alive in Christ, choose to remain dead afterwards? Is Christ's saving grace not powerful enough to snatch and keep him out of the grave? May the Holy Spirit illumine our hearts and minds as we ponder on these questions and may He help us see the glory of the Father and the Son beyond the horror of the Cross! God bless!

[@snowboard927]

Thank you for your thoughts, sir.

[@JohnQPublic11]

All the world’s a stage, and all the men and women merely two-bit players; stumbling through their assigned roles, the elect, the un-elect, the good, the bad, the ugly, mere mindless robots, mere mindless puppets with the Calvinist god as master puppeteer, mere mindless muppets with the Calvinist god engineering the freak show inside a swirling morass of garbage in an ocean of sewage performing 7 billion simultaneous roles, as HIMSELF! And in the demented mind of the Calvinist cultist the Calvinist god wrote/arranged/produced and STARS IN all of this for glory, the Calvinist gods glory and the Calvinist gods sadistic pleasure! And you wonder why we think and know Calvinists are stark raving mad nutters!!!

[@JohnQPublic11]

BE --- Did you watch the first 14 seconds of this video?

[@fantom5894]

"A white lie and a murder, both are of equal gravity in God's court"? No, they are not. Ever hear of venial sin and mortal sin?

[@siquod]

I find the Calvinist conception of "sovereignty" quite strange. Who is more sovereign: A) Someone who has to predetermine everything, lest he would not be considered sovereign if the slightest thing occurs apart from his orders, or B) Someone who brings to pass whatever he wants, even though others are trying to work against him? To me, its clearly B, even if I don't factor in that A is blasphemous.

[@rocketsurgeon1746]

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’ 1.God has given us the ability to "turn". 2.God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked

[@stephenglasse2743]

Just because God predetermined the death of his son which resulted in the redemption of creation it doesn't follow that all events e.g. Syrians being tortured and killed by Isis are ordained by God. The quote from proverbs seems very weak because (1) a dice is not the most random thing one could think of and (2) it probably refers to numbers 26 and the stones of the ephod which were used to determine YHWHs will. God explicitly ordained these as a means to determine his will. It doesn't follow that God determines the fall of every dice in lasvegas!!!!

[@simeonvvv]

+Stephen Glasse exactly Stephen.... Ezekiel 18:23. They have no explanation for that-but people who are Calvinists are literally addicted to their "chosen" status, and are not spiritually capable of understanding because they do not know or serve the same God we do- they serve their god of "Theology"....

[@siquod]

So, where does the bible say it was God who made them into vessels of wrath? Paul uses the passive voice in Romans 9 to describe them.

[@RobertEMason]

Thank you for this heartfelt explanation

[@madelynhernandez7453]

Heartfelt???? Far from it.

[@saycheese6773]

Saying god predestined sin is blasphemy

[@2BLO97]

You fool you are saying god did not plan the history of the universe ? So he did what ? Create it and let it roll out the way it does and see later what comes out of it ? Of course god did plan everything in advance cause he is all knowing and all powerfull and an all powerfull and all knowing god does not let the universe do whatever it does without planning it to do according to his will.

[@Hels_95]

@@2BLO97 no. God hasnt predestined. God is all knowing (islam), therefor God knows the future. God has "written down" not what you will, but God has "written down" what are are going to do. Will and are going to are different. Will means God has predestined (you are gonna do what god said) , are going to means ( God has said what you are going to do) he just knows it beacuse well he is all knowing. He has only predicted not predestined. If God had predestined everything it wouldnt be a mistake of a child who will grow up n commit sin, beacause well, God had predestined it, therefor ppl wouldny take responsibility. So God has given us freewill. God has given us freewill so we will take responsibility for our actions. Therfor if we have freewill it means that God hasnt predestined it. This comes back to the conclusion that God has only predicted (what you are going to do) not predestined ( what you will do beacause he wants you to).

[@RiseUpUNAFRAID4614]

Then we have 0 accountability, 0 reward in Glory & 0 reason to share the Gospel with others.

[@edcarson3113]

There's the perfect will of God and the permissible will of God

[@madelynhernandez7453]

What about the irresistible will of God.

[@eperon]

I can’t comprehend it all, but I’ll continue to trust God.

[@izahrawr1246]

I don't think it's correct brother. There's different angles to this misunderstanding. 1. Faith is not a work, as Calvinists keep saying. That's opposite of what the Bible says 2. Just because God foreknows the future, does not mean it has been determined and forced by God. Freewill and foreknowledge are both possibly in coexistence, no contradiction 3. Just because God can't do morally good things does not mean man can't understand what's right or wrong. Man has the law in his heart to convict, even as a non-believer, (Roms 1). Faith does not give God a command, as Calvinists say. Faith does not rob God's glory because man willfully using his faith is exactly part of God's plan and makes relationships genuine. God wants us to choose him. 4. Various scriptures show God saying he is good to all, mercy is for all and God loves all, even love to your enemies, yes even those who hate God. It's not farfetched that God reaches out to his enemies or those that don't want God

[@chan-qs9zo]

​@@izahrawr1246faith is a work. John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent

[@izahrawr1246]

@@chan-qs9zo I seriously think that was sarcastic. The whole of the scriptures show that faith is not a work. The book of James speaks about making Faith and Works as opposites in glory and in different categories. You get saved by faith, not works. That's fairly clear

[@brandonwhite8996]

​@@chan-qs9zoNot only is faith a work, but it is the work of God!

[@Gokujr768]

True there are MANY places in scripture old and new testament that show God is literally in control of Literally everything that happens. no bird dies apart from his will. He has absolute tabs on everything even the numbers of hairs on our heads. Thats Amazing

[@madambutterfly7513]

Bernard boateng - Yes, God is all powerful & in control of everything, He knew all of us before we were even born - I love God & His Son, Jesus, who died for my sins & for all mankind so we may have eternal life IF we accept Him as our Savior - we have a choice ( free will), either heaven or hell, you decide before it’s too late - God bless

[@woman1005]

One thing I say about calvanist, they sure know how to skate around questions and they are knowing for quoting outside sources to support scripture. This was one big word salad. A student of the scriptures can recognize that he didn't say anything🤦

[@TrueLifeAdventures]

Piper: "Yes." Then goes straight to Spurgeon. Good Lord man...Piper is wrong, wrong, wrong. What choice about the Cross is he talking about anyway? The one he means that God predetermined for you to have? Please. Governance and fatalistic determinism are two totally different things. Piper definitely clubs you over the head with his garbage. He is in error.

[@lanceasher6492]

I love this comment continue to expose these antichrist

[@justin____2882]

Teaching that God Predestines and decrees all things that come too pass is a very blasphemous and demonic teaching. It is literally accusing God of being the author of sin. the Calvinist God is not the God of the bible.

[@JohnPetricone-b6q]

(Eph 1:11 11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,) Note: (All things according to his will) All praise and glory to Christ Jesus, KING of Kings, and LORD of Lords. 🔥🌷

[@feelgoodfishingwithhenko251]

Help me with this Past John.....so God made (ordained) the crucifixion of Jesus happen...for the atonement of all the other sins He made happen (ordained)....?????, No sir....Is it not blasphemy to blame God (who hates sin) for sin? The Father who looked away from the Son because of the sin on Him???

[@Mike-qt7jp]

1. Revelation 22:17 says, “Whosoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.” Calvinism, however says it actually means: The ones I (God) chose, will take of the water of life. 2. John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” Calvinism, however says this verse actually means: For God so loved the ones He chose, that He gave His only begotten Son, that those He chose WILL have everlasting life. 3. Joshua 24:15 says, “…choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve…But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” Calvinism, however says this verse actually means: There is no choice, rather, God will decide whether or not one will serve the Lord. 4. 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” Calvinism, however, says this verse actually means: The Lord is not willing that any of the ones He has chosen should perish, but that all of the ones He has chosen should come to repentance. 5. Matthew6:8-10 says, “…therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done.” This is a prayer. If God’s will was already being done as per Calvinism, then why do we need to pray that it will happen? 6. Hebrews 3:12-14 says, “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end…” This is a call to not harden our hearts and depart from the living God, and to hold our confidence in Christ steadfast until the end. According to Calvinism, we can’t make that decision; God has already decided. 7. John 1:29 says, “The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” Calvinism, however says this verse actually means: The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the few that God has chosen. 8. 1st Timothy 1:15 says, “This is a faithful saying …that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners…” Calvinism, however says this verse actually means: Jesus came into the world to save (ONLY) the sinners God has already chosen. 9. 1ST John 19 says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Calvinism says, this verse really means, the ones He has chosen WILL confess their sins, and He is faithful and just to forgive them their sins and to cleanse them from all unrighteousness. Calvinism calls confession a synergistic work; meaning a work of faith added to what God has already done. Also, there is no IF in Calvinism. 10. Revelation 3:20 says, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.” Calvinism says, this verse really means, “…when the one I have chosen hears my voice, he will open the door…”

[@dosbassist]

If you disregard original sin and believe you are entitled to something, Piper is a Satanic false teacher. If you understand original sin and the state of man after the fall, and believe that the only thing you are entitled to without God is hell, Piper is exactly right. Lets go to the root of the problem folks. Do you serve your own God or the God of scripture? “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;no one does good, not even one." Romans 3:11-12

[@brettsumner2163]

I agree that without God and His grace, I am hellbound. I disagree with Piper that I dont have a choice of accepting that grace. I also believe I can choose to sin or choose not to sin, and the only part God plays in that choice is His implementation of consequence that He has already designed beforehand knowing what I would choose. God does not ever take or get credit or responsibility for man's sin. When he hardened Pharoah's heart, Pharoah had already rejected Him, which illustrates clearly that God *can* and just *might* affect or influence man for His glory and purpose. God never indicates in His word, at least not that I have read, where He makes man's choice for man or mankind. That is my dilemma with anyone who follows Calvin...I follow Christ as He leads me, I read His word, as for this Calvin fellow, well I dont know him.

[@douglasmcnay644]

@@brettsumner2163 Romans 3:10-17

[@rdftreeman]

If God knows that a rape is going to happen tomorrow (Undeniably He does) and has determined to allow it and not stop it; then by not stopping the rape, God has determined that the rape should exist, thereby decreeing/ordaining the rape.

[@dayweed85]

correct and thats why god is the most immoral thing out there. im glad he doesnt exist.

[@rdftreeman]

Likewise, I'm glad that you don't exist

[@dayweed85]

rdftreeman so im here talking to you and i dont exist, yet a sky daddy made up in your head does? .

[@rdftreeman]

I don't see any evidence of you, and I believe that these words have evolved onto the computer screen out of nothing! Big smile

[@dayweed85]

rdftreeman youre trolling me right? nobody is that dumb..

[@awesome4064]

Dear John Piper, The dice/lot does not have a soul nor free will. Its result is naturally dependent on the physics of the throw, orchestrated and determined by God (though to man, it seems to be random). Thus, I'm afraid, this scripture on the dice/lot isn't relevant on the discussion of free-will in the context of man.

[@jeanclink8199]

I am SO glad I did not hear any of these ideas until a few years ago, when, no matter what happened, someone would say, "God is in control," absolving all wrongdoers from any personal responsibility. "God controls everything for His glory." Which would be to say that God is pleased with love he receives from people he pre-programmed to love Him - people who would have no idea how to live or even wipe their noses except it was pre-programmed for them to do it? This is a seriously twisted viewpoint. Such love is not love at all. I wouldn't want any of it.

[@kaylaherincharles]

Soooo this debate between calvinism and arminiasm has caused a huge controversy. I always kind of took what Piper taught with a grain of salt, and I remember listening to Piper years ago and his message always centered directly around Christ which was the only teaching that ever drew me in. I still love John Piper but I personally think that trying to fully understand predestination is not possible unless God, Himself has graced within your mind and understanding any ounce of His knowledge concerning it because scripture clearly says that His ways are above are ways and His thoughts are above our thoughts. I look at points from both views and can possibly see some possibilities, but I can see how it has caused discord in many ways. I've seen some calvinsts go as far as having the mindset along the lines of "well, i'm personally selected by God, therefore I can't lose my salvation." which is dangerous thinking....the stance I take on it is that those that will be truly saved and will endure to the end, were known and are known by God because He has understanding of all things, there is nothing that He doesn't know. God is a God of fairness and justice. Those that ignorantly follow after doctrines of demons, apostate theology, deception, and any anti-Christ doctrine, you can be assured that God sees their ignorance, those that are His, He will not allow to be completely led astray without correction because He is their Father, and as a Father, He corrects those that are His children. Without correction, they are not His children. The ignorance within a believer's mind can clearly be seen by God, in it's full entirety. This should prompt us to stay in constant, consistent prayer and communion with the Lord. I find it so compelling to pray for my heart and mind to be renewed and cleansed by God, and for myself to be examined for any unrighteousness that may be there. Those that are truly the Father's are being transformed into the image of Christ. I can think of certain verses and i'm paraphrasing, about those that are fitted for destruction, and those that he foreknew he predestined to be made into the image of Christ, when you take into account that there is not a feather that can drift in any place at anytime that has not been foreseen by God, everything has been planned and seen beforehand.

[@kaylaherincharles]

I also wanted to add that, I think that what Piper said is actually correct when you truly understand that God knows all things. It's not too hard for me to understand that. I just don't associate myself with being a calvinist or an arminiast, or any of the like.

[@kaylaherincharles]

***** Lol all glory to God, i'm glad you found it helped in some way. I've been looking at the different sides for some years since I've gotten saved, what triggered me to dig deeper was the fact that in my mind, I kept running into this one specific thought. I took it into prayer and literally was distraught thinking about it, then through prayer and with God straightening out and strengthening my understanding, I started to understand it! God is awesome like that!

[@dylanmcphee8454]

+Kaylah Erin Turner THE EDITED VERSION OF THIS MESSAGE IS (29) MESSAGES BELOW THIS ONE lol

[@kaylaherincharles]

dylan mcphee Are you a calvinist?

[@dylanmcphee8454]

Kaylah Erin Turner I am hesitant to say yes because many have a misinformed view of, or misunderstanding of the doctrines of grace. In fact, LITERALLY every person whom I have spoken to on the topic that are not "Calvinists", misrepresents the doctrines of grace. Whether the cause is a misunderstanding of the doctrines of grace or an intentional misrepresentation. Either way, they are always attacking a "straw man". And every person who does understand it correctly is already a "Calvinist" lol. These are only those whom I have spoken to about the topic. So yes, I am a "Calvinist". But (and I think you understand this) we do NOT hold Calvin higher in any way, shape, or form, then other men. John Calvin was a wretched sinner just like every human being on earth and we ALL deserve God's wrath. I merely agree with his interpretation of the bible and believe it to be the accurate understanding of scripture.

[@Mike-qt7jp]

Here is absolute proof that God does not predetermine and cause everything to happen that happens; In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."

[@bizmogrowth9081]

“Absolute” proof lol

[@donkeykong2.0]

?? if it says it in the Bible then that's proof enough

[@johnsivertsen7846]

Thank You for being . Thank You Lord for this True preacher . Love to you all for the word .

[@Mike-qt7jp]

In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."

[@aletheamallory9674]

The LORD already knows those who are HIS. HIS REMNANT👑✝️🤗🙋🏾👑

[@MikeJunior94]

So I can't choose? Great! Then I am not morally accountable... Calvinism is asinine.

[@wtom04]

Calvinism is utterly guilty of making God the author of sin and evil. Calvinism is the epitome of Satanic evil. Check out what the following Calvinist apologists had to say regarding sin and evil: 1) Loraine Boettner - "Even the fall of Adam, and through him the fall of the race, was not by chance or accident, but was so ordained in the secret counsels of God" - In his book, "The Reformed doctrine of Predestination, page 234 2) Jerom Sanchius - "Surely, if God had not willed the fall, He could, and no doubt would, have prevented it; but He did not prevent it: ergo, He willed it. And if He willed it, He certainly decreed it." - In his book, "The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination" page 88. 3) A.W. Pink - "Plainly it was God's will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens save as God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a bare permission, for God only permits that which He has purposed." In his book, "The Sovereignty of God" page 147, (1961). 4) A.W. Pink - "Not only did His omniscient eye see Adam eating of the forbidden fruit, but He decreed beforehand that he should do so." In his book, "The Sovereignty of God" page 249 5) Edwin Palmer - "It is even Biblical to say that God has foreordained sin. If sin was outside the plan of God, then not a single important affair of life would be ruled by God." In his book, "The 5 Points of Calvinism" page 82 6) William Shedd - "Nothing comes to pass contrary to his desire. Nothing happens by chance. Even moral evil, which He abhors and forbids, occurs "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God." In his book, "Calvinism: Pure and Mixed, page 37, 1986. 7) J. Gresham Machen - "All things including even the wicked actions of wicked men and devils -- are brought to pass in accordance with God's eternal purpose." In his book, "Christian View of Man, page 46, 1965. 8) William Shedd - "Sin is one of the "whatsoevers" that have "come to pass", all of which are "ordained". In his book, "Calvinism" Pure and Mixed, page 31, 1986.

[@JosefFurg1611]

wtom04 Isaiah 45:7

[@wtom04]

@John Venkatesh God had foreknowledge regarding Adam and Eve's sinning, but that does not mean that He foreordained or "decreed" them to sin. That would make God the author of sin and evil. Calvinism teaches that God's foreknowledge equals foreordination. That is not true.

[@wtom04]

@John Venkatesh The Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Rape of Nanking, Pearl Harbor, and the 9/11 terrorist attacks were all foreknown by God, but He never decreed that those atrocities happen. Those atrocities were the result of the innate evil and wickedness of man. Calvinist apologists argue that God is the author of sin and evil. 1) Loraine Boettner - "Even the fall of Adam, and through him the fall of the race, was not by chance or accident, but was so ordained in the secret counsels of God" - In his book, "The Reformed doctrine of Predestination, page 234 2) Jerom Sanchius - "Surely, if God had not willed the fall, He could, and no doubt would, have prevented it; but He did not prevent it: ergo, HE WILLED IT. AND IF HE WILLED IT, HE CERTAINLY DECREED IT." - In his book, "The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination" page 88. 3) A.W. Pink - "Plainly it was God's will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens save as God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a bare permission, for God only permits that which He has purposed." In his book, "The Sovereignty of God" page 147, (1961). 4) A.W. Pink - "Not only did His omniscient eye see Adam eating of the forbidden fruit, BUT HE DECREED BEFOREHAND THAT HE SHOULD DO SO." In his book, "The Sovereignty of God" page 249 5) Edwin Palmer - "IT IS EVEN BIBLICAL TO SAY THAT GOD HAS FOREORDAINED SIN. If sin was outside the plan of God, then not a single important affair of life would be ruled by God." In his book, "The 5 Points of Calvinism" page 82 6) Edwin Palmer - "All things that happen in all the world at any time and in all history-whether with inorganic matter, vegetation, animals, man, or angels (both the good and evil ones)-come to pass because God ordained them. EVEN SIN -- THE FALL OF THE DEVIL FROM HEAVEN, THE FALL OF ADAM, AND EVERY EVIL THOUGHT, WORD, AND DEED IN ALL OF HISTORY, INCLUDING THE WORST SIN OF ALL, Judas’ betrayal of Christ-is included in the eternal decree of our holy God." - page 120, Edwin Palmer - in his book, "The 5 Points of Calvinism". 7) Edwin Palmer - "SIN IS NOT ONLY FOREKNOWN BY GOD, IT IS ALSO FOREORDAINED BY GOD" - On page 122, 1980 in his book, ""The 5 Points of Calvinism".

[@wtom04]

@John Venkatesh If your beloved spouse or other close loved one got raped which permanently traumatizes them for the rest of their lives, are you going to conclude that God "foreordained" and "decreed" that atrocity to happen to your loved one?? Are you going to tell them that God did that "according to secret counsels of his will" and "according to his sovereign good pleasure"???? Ezekiel 18:23 - 23 HAVE I ANY PLEASURE AT ALL THAT THE WICKED SHOULD DIE? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? Ezekiel 18:32 - 32 FOR I HAVE NO PLEASURE in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: WHEREFORE TURN YOURSELVES and live ye. Ezekiel 33:11 - 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF WICKED; but that the wicked turn from his way and live:TURN YE, TURN YE from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

[@wtom04]

@John Venkatesh No, that is not an emotional argument. I provided Scripture to back up my assertion, whereas you have not provided any Scripture whatsoever, but are relying on your emotions, feelings, and philosophical presuppositions of Augustinianism/Calvinism.