Why Would God Ordain Evil?

God loves it when we struggle and wrestle with his word when our wrestling is to understand, know, and love him more. Let all our questions be asked in faith.
You may find the full resource at: www.desiringgod.org/messages/w...

[@tamarasmith1706]

Thank you for all that you do! I feel clarity watching these videos. I struggle with understanding The Lord's decisions because he sometimes allows schools full of children to burn to the ground and consume the little humans inside alive. But I know that he is still good and merciful.

[@thinkconsider2639]

Are you sure he’s still good and merciful?

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@@thinkconsider2639 If mercy and goodness exist they must have a transcendent source. Otherwise they are both subjective ideals only in the mind of people. This world is a broken place, but I believe we all inwardly desire a better one.

[@russedav5]

@@thinkconsider2639 Romans 9:20 The Message Who in the world do you think you are to second-guess God? [answer: a Psalm 14:1 fool] Do you for one moment suppose any of us knows enough to call God into question? Clay doesn't talk back to the fingers that mold it, saying, "Why did you shape me like this?"

[@davidtownhill356]

Evil exists as an opposite to Good. Without Evil, we would have no concept of Good. God needs us to know about evil in order to know about the full glory of goodness.

[@thesea6417]

Tree of knowledge of good and evil... God told us not to eat it. We ate it.

[@CandyOnAChopstick]

What about miscarried babies that go to Heaven? Will they spend eternity not knowing the full glory of his goodness?

[@avecina6460]

@@thesea6417 Awesome !! This means that God does not want us to disobey Him , because God knows that going againts His Will will lead or result in Evil/ Sin. Therefore , were did evil start/ originates from ?? Not from God !! What would have happened if Adam/ Eve or all people Obeyed Gods Will / order/ Laws ? Well, the answer is obvious.... No Evil, No Suffering, No Sorrow , Even No Satan, No Sin in the World, No Earthly Hell.... A world without Sin and Without Crime is none other Than Heaven, pure and sinless Earth/ Humanity is Heaven or kingdom of God( Heaven on Earth ), ... Thats the very original plan and old aged One unchanging Will of God that was not Realized due to disobedience and Sin...Ahhh, May His kingdom Come and may His will be done / established first here on Earth as it is in Spiritual Heaven.... The question should have been, Why did God not intervene (( with Adam/ Eve and Archangel Lucifer portion of Responsibility ))) when He saw that Adam/ Eve and the ArchAngel Lucifer commiting the act of sin and disobedience , ? Whats the purpose and Motive of God giving Adam/ Eve the command/ order ( NOT to eat the forbidden fruit ) when He knew before hand that they will disobey ?? It was man( Human beings and ArchAngel Lucifer ) who allows/ ordians Evil to creep into their Minds and Hearts!!.... Take Note : God created Human Beings and ArchAngels for a good purpose , to served, obey and worship/ Honor Him.... That good motive and purpose was realized...Fallen Angels and sinful human beings departed from that good purpose and motive ......

[@ElizabathMary-jx8xr]

@@CandyOnAChopstick new

[@amanda8399]

HE>i

[@HoxtonLive]

You could also use the story of Job to reach to the same conclusion which i think is what inspires the apostle Paul's explanation.

[@jasont5300]

Love the last 5 chapters of Job.

[@Vetforlife]

Would the overshadowing of Mary and the Holy Spirit hovering over in Genesis have some kind of meaning together?

[@HosannaInExcelsis]

the overshadowing of Mary has to do with the overshadowing of the Ark of the Covenant in Exodus 40:35. The word is the same: episkiazo

[@tatokainjones9029]

I understand why God Ordains evil. but my questions is why should we follow him and love him? for starters I am a christian I do love God. i had a non christian coworker tell me " If your God is the one and only god i wouldn't follow him. the bible is the story of an all powerful bully who craves attention and affection. he created us flawed put rules on us so hard that the only person able to uphold them is himself. and then because we failed to live up to his rules that he knew was impossible for us to do we are sentenced to hell for eternity. unless we decide to love and follow the one who doomed us in the beginning." this was several years ago i did not have an answer then and still don't to this day. i have struggled with it ever since.

[@nadiabronkhorst2526]

! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."

[@Android-ds9ie]

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." - Richard Dawkins.

[@Android-ds9ie]

Antichrist Revealed. . 10 months ago (edited). . Gen 1:26, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; // Man steals, lies, murders, and seeks self gratification. . . . . . God on the other hand steals, (John 11:10, Mat 25:28, Mr 4:24), he lies (Mr 9:23, Mr 11:24, Mat 21:22), he murders (Mat 7:23, Luke 19:27), and seeks self gratification (Rev 1:8). So when it comes right down to it, we were designed by a God who made us just like he is. Man does what God wants him to do out of fear, not love. But then, God has never said what he wants us to do, and has left us on our own accord, and to think on our own, so he judges us. So how can God be a sovereign God and allow suffering? It's because he is not the kind loving God that everyone has come to believe. What he has done or allowed to be done, he is also doing to himself so he can repair the issues at a time he chooses (if he does at all), and then proclaim to be a wonderful God that no one can stand up to. The only reason a person believes he is a kind and wonderful God is because they have been taught to think so and to keep quiet. Otherwise, millions of people would tell God to take a hike, because most people are fed up with the I AM GOD thing, and the lies of him giving to those who have faith or believe. The truth is, MOST people are afraid to tell it like it is because they fear being punished. Doesn't this sound like abuse, and not love? The fear of God is the hate of evil, but apparently even if that evil comes from God himself. Proverbs 8:13.. . 1 like.

[@bernardbennett1217]

The God of the old testament is Jesus Christ.

[@All-shall-say-Jesus-is-Lord]

The God of the Bible does not ordain evil. Your coworker was gravely mistaken about the God of the Bible and you were too.

[@vitorcoolman]

Uau!! oh my.. thx God for this man

[@saintbeloved1011]

If God predestined my sins and I can't do anything to stop what he forced me to do how can he punish me?

[@bernardbennett1217]

How can He not?

[@saintbeloved1011]

@@bernardbennett1217 if I make you kill someone is it OK for me to punish you for it as well

[@adamrocks19]

God is an arbitrary wicked f$&@. That’s why.

[@nobledebate8018]

It is clear we were made with propensity to sin, that sins are allowed, that we are guilty and punished on earth for sins, and for us to be worthy of the Kingdom, the sacrifice of the Son for our sins to God, allows Him to form us with his grace of redemption, consisting of afflictions leading to repentance and Faith, to make we “know” that it is the power of God’s will what drags us from evil to the rejection of evil and love to God.

[@wtom04]

There used to be an old joking excuse back in the 1970's that goes, "The Devil made me do it!", but in Calvinism it goes, "God made me do it!"

[@wtom04]

+Sheep Dog God has a permissive will and He also has a decretive will. God never decreed that you sin. James 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

[@wtom04]

+el verdugo Pr The devil is not a puppet. Satan has free will and his evil and wickedness is self-generated. Satan fell not because God caused him to fall, but because of Satan's immense pride and ego on account of his great beauty and status as an angel of God. Lucifer wanted to dethrone God. Isaiah 14:12-15 - 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I WILL ascend into heaven, I WILL exalt my throne above the stars of God: I WILL sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I WILL ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. "I WILL" means that Satan has free will.

[@LitoLochoss]

because you didn’t God just didn’t restrain you

[@donaldhicks3359]

In the end , billions will go to hell , afew will go to heaven , what awonderful thing God has done for his children.

[@cameronvinson]

Man looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the Heart, but if People want to do wrong should God stop People doing wrong because God knows the outcome of People's Actions.

[@JesusGarcia-Digem]

AMEN!!!

[@All-shall-say-Jesus-is-Lord]

"It is no sin in God to will that there be sin." Foolishness to the highest degree.

[@carlmanguitar]

Why are there so many angry comments? Life: It is what it is. Pray that GOD will take control over this imperfect life. That's it!!!

[@joehobo8868]

The will of an imaginary god is not very strong. The will of the fools that murder in the name of their own imagination is very strong.

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@@joehobo8868 According to calvinism, God fore ordained all human actions, all human decisions. So you actually seem to be agreeing with the calvinist theology that piper accepts, because in calvinism all human choice and desire ultimately begins with God's fore ordaining it.

[@wellactually21]

@@prayunceasingly2029 yup that's true , but God isn't to blame , we willingly submit to God's decree, so because we act upon his decree, we're held accountable and responsible for our actions.

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@@wellactually21 God is the first mover of evil if that's the case. God could have fore ordained no evil to occur.

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@@wellactually21 If he decrees it and we don't have a choice other than to submit to his will, why did he decree it so he can then condemn us? He could have decreed something different but he didn't. (Edit - in my understanding of calvinism, no one can choose other than what God's will is, in any way, whether to be saved or damned. Yet we are supposed to believe God truly doesn't desire us to sin, while he supposedly fore ordained our sin?)

[@johnellis7614]

Romans 9:19-23 --- "But someone may say to me now, “Why then should anyone be blamed for the harm they do? What is the logic? The will of his, who can resist it?” Dear man, surely true logic is the reverse of yours. Why be one who engages in a brain-power battle with the infinitely intelligent God? For never should it be said by us who are the image and likeness of our creator, “Why am I being molded like this?” For does he not have the freedom, that potter with the clay, from what is of the highest quality moldable dough to make what is clearly a work of art, and other things that are for an unmentionable purpose, to make them from what is hard, unyielding and unfixable? Now then the will of God is to show that without a spirit mind, man is controlled by a brain that perceives only pleasure or pain. And in so doing to make known the unlimited ability of him to bear with infinite patience - the workers of wrath - the ones who use stress and terror to enslave those less intelligent. For the ultimate conclusion of it all surely will be that great and deadly day of destruction. For in this way does he make known the wealth of the glory of himself, to the workers of mercy who were prepare in advance for splendor." ECV

[@Lifeisshortsee]

the origin of evil by Dr. Gene Kim. Also Genesis and the Giants. Also check out Bible project. And spirit world by Clarence Larkin. And Dr Peter S Ruckman on why the King James Bible is the word of God preserved. And lastly Dr Chuck Missler the hidden messages in Genesis video and the video transhumanism. Hopefully this answers the question that a few people have asked me. Thank you very much have a great day. From Rochester New York today's date April 6th 2021

[@mr.e1220]

Even the animals are suffering. Is it God's plan?

[@RcNe-bk3vb]

Simply look at this world, the god must be evil. God, please stop your stupid and crazy plan. You just make us ill and suffering.

[@davidochieng2975]

When sin first came into this world, God in his plan prepared a new earth for his people(Romans 8:18-25)

[@giaarmany7329]

Brenton's English Septuagint 1851 Jeremiah 19:5 and built high places for Baal, to burn their children in the fire, which things I commanded not, neither did I design them in my heart:

[@giaarmany7329]

God let things happen, he doesn't ordain them to happen

[@mrknuckles5269]

How could a loving god allow suffering ?

[@castorc2171]

What is love? What is good? We construct a definition based on our needs and believes. God is good, God is love. He is the definition. Doesnt answer your question I know, but the more we try to be god or dictate was good and wants love the more lost we become.

[@vince6264]

Without suffering, how can the elect know the value of glory and pleasures? It's just like how can a man know the value of righteousness and holiness of God if there is no evil?

[@wellactually21]

Well, we think the way he loves is the same way we love, which is an error on our part, he's God, and we're man , he has no emotions, he acts according to his holy counsel , I forgot which verse but it says something like , "he will have mercy on whom he'll have mercy" I believe God allows suffering for his good will and purpose, for an instance , think about the story of Joseph, he got sold to slavery , God ordained for that to happen, but , his brothers are responsible for that sin , because they willingly acted on God's decree, which makes them responsible for it, anyways , they sold him to slavery in acts of evil, they hated him, but God ordained that to happen , for the good , Joseph was crowned king below pharaoh , and because of Joseph, many lives were saved .

[@Victoria-ee3ij]

I'm 15 minutes in and 100% believe Pastor John is a man of God but I am so lost. It's definitely an error on my part but my brain just isn't following what he's saying. I'll probably have to rewatch this and pray.

[@beammeupscotty3074]

Conmen equals 1000's of confusing gods = conmen are known to be confusing and full of ship

[@All-shall-say-Jesus-is-Lord]

Men of God can be gravely mistaken.

[@Supdude1964]

Babies that die deserve to be punished?

[@christopherstroud8621]

Does God find fault? If we define fault as "sin" then yes there is sin in the world. God has found it and the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world because of that sin . But, if by "fault" we mean that His authority [All things are in His hand-John 3:35] is not 100% over all that is then that would be a different scenario. As I understand the Bible God's will is always done. If it is His will that we obey a command of His then we are given the grace to do so but if it is not His will that we obey one of His commands then we are not given the grace to obey. In this way He " in everything he might be preeminent". Col 1:18.

[@christopherstroud8621]

@Yashaya Yaquab 144 Hello. 1 John 4:14 The Father sent the Son, [Jesus], to be the Saviour of the world. "the world" is the world which humans inhabit. There is an unseen spirit world e.g. the angels in Matthew 24:31 inhabit it. We are not told that there is redemption for fallen angels. In John 3:17 "the world might be saved". Worldly people may be saved, because Jesus died for the sins of the world" sins which belong to this world, not the world of fallen angels. In the history of Israel there were times when men went away from God because He had not saved them. But in the end Israel will be saved and that salvation will extend into "Forever and ever" or, "world without end". If that does not answer all your queries please ask again.

[@christopherstroud8621]

@Yashaya Yaquab 144 Thanks. A time will come when Israel will be saved but that tells us about Israel and says nothing about what may be happening in other nations. You say I said, All nations will be saved, but I can't find where I said that. I did say worldly people "might be saved". That possibility of some people from any nation being saved is made possible by Christ dying for their sins. But one further requirement is necessary, they must also believe see John3:16. Whosoever believes means that we have to trust in God's forgiveness to receive it. 1] Heb 8:8 The new covenant is based on Jesus. Jesus dying and rising from death. 2] Sometimes the Bible talks about what is going to happen to Israel. But that does not mean the rest of the world does not exist, or is unimportant, or is not part of God's salvation plan. 3] The 144000 may be symbolic of the total. In Rev7: 9 we are told of a great number that no one could number [count]. 4] The old Israel is Abraham's physical family. New Israel are Abraham's spiritual family and are those who like him live by faith. "Israel" is sometimes old Israel sometimes new Israel, As we study the Bible we get better at seeing which is which. In Rev 21:12 the old Israel is remembered with its 12 tribes but the new Israel are present because they are in Christ in Heaven. I am happy to try to answer your questions.

[@christopherstroud8621]

@Yashaya Yaquab 144 Praise the Lord. 1] In Heb 8:8 with regard to the New Covenant only Israel and Judah are mentioned. In other parts of the Bible e.g. Romans 1:14-16 the Gospel, which is the Good News of the New Covenant, is for Greeks [non-Jews] and barbarians, [v16] the Jew first and also for the Greek. "Greek", in Romans 3:9 Paul uses this word to describe all people who are not Jews. 2] Israelite would be scattered and return, yes, but are you saying that these are the 144000? I find it difficult to understand you here. 3] Roman 9:7-8 Two sorts of Israel: 1. physical seed of Abraham are "the children of the flesh." 2. the children of the promise are not children of the flesh so I called them "spiritual". If you think I am running and dodging, it may appear to you that I am doing that. But there is a difference between dodging and being genuine and doing ones best.

[@wtom04]

God did not plan or create sin. Sin came into existence with the fall of Lucifer which was SELF-GENERATED because of his great pride and ego on account of his great status and beauty as an angel of God - Isaiah 14:12-14, Ezekiel 28:13-17. Lucifer's 5 "I wills" declarations no doubt indicate that he had free will and acted independently from God.

[@wtom04]

+Sheep Dog Calvinism denies that man has free will, but if that is true, then God would have not given the following exhortations in His Word: Joshua 24:15 - And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Joshua 24:22 - Then Joshua said, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have CHOSEN to serve the Lord.” “Yes, we are witnesses,” they replied. The word "chosen" in Joshua 24:22 indicates that man has free will and indicates the action taken by the people as a result of the exhortation given in Joshua 24:15. Deuteronomy 30:19 - 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Again, the word "choose" indicates that God has given us FREE WILL. Judges 10:14 - 14 Go and cry unto the gods WHICH YE HAVE CHOSEN; let them deliver you in the time of your tribulation. Ezra 8:28 - And I said unto them, Ye are holy unto the Lord; the vessels are holy also; and the silver and the gold are a FREEWILL offering unto the Lord God of your fathers. Psalm 119:108 - Accept, I beseech thee, the FREEWILL offerings of my mouth, O Lord, and teach me thy judgments.

[@wtom04]

+Sheep Dog The fact that you posted a link of a video of John MacArthur shows that you don't know the true Biblical gospel of John 3:16, but have been deceived by the false gospel of John MacArthur and John Piper which is "John Calvin 3:16". The philosophical presuppositions of Augustine and John Calvin cannot save you.

[@chillvibes375]

Yes. He did. He is the alpha and the omega. God almighty. So, yes he did. He is a jealous god, and an angry god. He knows everything. He is clearly an evil god. He is perfect. Has in, he has all traits in him. God already knew who would go to hell etc.

[@wtom04]

+Sheep Dog Psalm 5:5 is not a salvation passage. God does not love Satan and that is obvious. John 3:16 is the gospel in its entirety and God made it so plain and simple that a child could believe it and be eternally saved right then and there. You are relying upon your works by either front loading or back loading them and making them imperative for salvation which is not the gospel.

[@wtom04]

+Blaze up Your comment - "He is clearly an evil god" My comment - You are deceived and lost and don't know what you're talking about. The God of the Bible is not evil.

[@wtom04]

Passages such as Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6 in the KJV need to be read in light of other Bible translations and Scriptural passages that give the reader the context and better clarity of what is being taught in those passages that say that God "created evil." 1) Isaiah 45:7 KJV currently reads, "I form the light, and CREATE DARKNESS: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things." 2) Isaiah 45:7 NIV - I form the light and CREATE DARKNESS, I bring prosperity and CREATE DISASTER; I, the LORD, do all these things. 3) Isaiah 45:7 NASB - The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and CREATING CALAMITY; I am the LORD who does all these. 4) Amos 3:6 in the KJV, it currently reads, "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be EVIL in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" 5) Amos 3:6 NIV - When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When DISASTER comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it? 6) Amos 3:6 NASB - If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a CALAMITY occurs in a city has not the LORD done it? When one looks at these different translations and do a comparison, one will discover that the word "evil" in the context of Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6 refers to "disaster" and "calamity" that God brings upon those who are willfully disobedient, unfaithful, and who do wicked acts, whether saved or unsaved. In other words, those people reap what they willfully sow. God chastises them by bringing "evil", "disaster", and "calamity" as a wake up call. One should NOT read Isaiah 45:7, Amos 3:6 and other related passages in isolation and out of context and draw a conclusion from that method because in doing so, one will most likely get the wrong interpretation. Christians need to read those passages in light of other Scriptural passages such as the ones in Jeremiah to get a better understanding of what Isaiah 45:7, Amos 3:6 is really saying. The following passages in Jeremiah explain why God brings evil, disaster, and calamity upon people. God does not do these things in a whimsical, arbitrary, and capricious way according to the "secret counsels of His will" and according to His "sovereign good pleasure" which is what Calvinism would falsely teach. God gives the reason why through the prophet Jeremiah when people questioned why evil, disaster, and calamity fell upon them: 1) Jeremiah 1:14, 16 - 14 Then the Lord said unto me, Out of the north an EVIL shall break forth upon all the inhabitants of the land. 16 And I will utter my judgments against them touching all their wickedness, who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, and worshipped the works of their own hands. 2) Jeremiah 4:1,4,6 - If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the Lord, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove. 4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring EVIL from the north, and a great destruction. 3) Jeremiah 4:18 - 18 Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reacheth unto thine heart. 4) Jeremiah 5:19 - 19 And it shall come to pass, when ye shall say, WHEREFORE DOETH THE LORD OUR GOD ALL THESE THINGS UNTO US? then shalt thou answer them, Like AS YE HAVE FORSAKEN ME, and SERVED STRANGE GODS in your land, so shall ye serve strangers in a land that is not your's. 5) Jeremiah 6:19 - 19 Hear, O earth: behold, I WILL BRING EVIL upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT HEARKENED UNTO MY WORDS, NOR TO MY LAW, BUT REJECTED IT. 6) Jeremiah 9:12-14 - 12 Who is wise enough to understand this? Who has been instructed by the Lord and can explain it? WHY HAS THE LAND BEEN RUINED AND LAID WASTE LIKE A DESERT THAT NO ONE CAN CROSS? 13 The Lord said, “IT IS BECAUSE THEY HAVE FORSAKEN MY LAW, WHICH I SET BEFORE THEM; THEY HAVE NOT OBEYED ME OR FOLLOWED MY LAW. 14 INSTEAD, THEY HAVE FOLLOWED THE STUBBORNNESS OF THEIR HEARTS; THEY HAVE FOLLOWED THE BAALS, AS THEIR ANCESTORS TAUGHT THEM." 7) Jeremiah 11:10-11 - 10 They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. 11 Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I WILL BRING EVIL UPON THEM, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. 8) Jeremiah 11:17 - 17 For the Lord of hosts, that planted thee, HATH PRONOUNCED EVIL AGAINST THEE, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal. 9) Jeremiah 16:10-12 - 10 And it shall come to pass, when thou shalt shew this people all these words, and they shall say unto thee, WHEREFORE HATH THE LORD PRONOUNCED ALL THIS GREAT EVIL AGAINST US? OR WHAT IS OUR INIQUITY? OR WHAT IS OUR SIN THAT WE HAVE COMMITTED AGAINST THE LORD OUR GOD? 11 Then shalt thou say unto them, BECAUSE YOUR FATHERS HAVE FORSAKEN ME, saith the Lord, and HAVE WALKED AFTER OTHER GODS, AND HAVE SERVED THEM, AND HAVE WORSHIPED THEM, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law; 12 And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me: 10) Jeremiah 19:3-5 - 3 And say, Hear ye the word of the Lord, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I WILL BRING EVIL UPON THIS PLACE the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle. 4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; 5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to BURN THEIR SONS WITH FIRE for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: 11) Jeremiah 19:15 - 15 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the EVIL that I have pronounced against it, BECAUSE THEY HAVE HARDENED THEIR NECKS, that they might not hear my words. 12) Jeremiah 22:8-9 - 8 And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbour, WHEREFORE HATH THE LORD DONE THUS UNTO THIS GREAT CITY? 9 Then they shall answer, BECAUSE THEY HAVE FORSAKEN THE COVENANT OF THE LORD THEIR GOD, AND WORSHIPED OTHER GODS, AND SERVED THEM. It is important also to remember that there are many instances when "evil", "disaster", and "calamity" falls upon the righteous because of Satanic oppression and persecution. The example of Job falls in this category. Those instances are separate from the instances where God brings evil, disaster, and calamity as chastisement. 1) God brings evil, disaster, and calamity upon the wicked because of their wickedness and evil. They get a taste of their own medicine. God also brings evil, disaster, and calamity upon the righteous when they go off the path and become unfaithful, disobedient, and do wicked acts. This is chastisement and a wake up call from God - Jeremiah 2:19. 2) Satan brings evil, disaster, and calamity upon the righteous in an attempt to discourage, anger, frustrate, corrupt, and in an attempt to thwart when the righteous are living in holiness, obedience, and faithfulness. This has always been the motive of Satan on those who live righteously. Scripture is clear that there is no evil or darkness at all in God - 1 John 1:5, James 1:13 nor does God tempt anyone with evil. The Bible is clear that evil came into existence when Lucifer fell and became Satan with his infamous 5 "I wills" declarations in Isaiah 14:12-15 and was self-generated due to his immense pride on account of his great beauty and status as an angel of God - Ezekiel 28:13-17. Yes, God allowed evil to come into existence, but it would be incorrect to assert that God "created" evil. To say that God "created" evil is to say that He is the author of evil thereby exonerating Satan. Since God gave man free will to choose, God allowed evil to come into existence so that man has a choice to choose good or evil with it's accompanying consequences. Man has had free will since the Garden of Eden - Genesis 2:16-17. God is a God of love and because of His very nature and character, He gave man freewill to choose to accept or reject Him with it's accompanying consequences because man is not a mindless puppet on a string. God created the ABILITY/POTENTIAL for man to decide. This of course, is something that Calvinism denies incessantly.

[@lianpeet3502]

wtom04 I have read with deep interest all of your words. I am in the process of re accessing what it is I believe about all these doctrines. I appreciate your thoughtful responses to this message from Piper but please be careful about your tone and words to other Christians who have a different interpretation than you (Calvinist coward).

[@philipfarnam6013]

I'm sure your words would be a comfort to the millions upon millions of innocent children under the age of five who suffer and die every year. No "free will" involved in it, just suffering and death, their parents' prayers going unheard or unacted upon. The difference between God existing and not existing is precisely zero. Stuff happens. That's it. That's all.

[@wtom04]

@@philipfarnam6013 Jesus made it clear that little children go to heaven. Matthew 19:14 - Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

[@wtom04]

@@philipfarnam6013 The millions upon millions of innocent children who die every year go to heaven because none of them have reached the age of accountability. The baby that was born to King David as a result of his adultery with Bathsheba died, but the baby is eternally secure.

[@philipfarnam6013]

@@wtom04 So you Holy Book says. Doesn't say anything about their suffering, though, and certainly doesn't acknowledge the millions upon millions of them suffering and dying year after year. Are you saying suffering in children is a good thing? Do you think it's part of God's plan?

[@justmy2cents_]

So basically if your parent(s) decided to molest,abuse,torture, enslave or kill you they have the right or authority just because they created you is that the assumption here?? I gave you life then so I can take life is that the understanding he's proclaiming?? I believe we (mankind) are not truly understanding what God the heavenly father is or isn't! He seems to be giving God human characteristics just as Constantine did with the counsel of Nicea. Which distorted God's words and injects his own interpretation or understanding. The Bible clearly states in Numbers 23:19 ”God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? That statement goes against the idea of God being anything like man in his sovereignty his omnipotence he does not behave as men do. That's exactly why he in Genesis was grieved to his heart because of how corrupted mankind had become & he decided to destroy mankind in which he made. So how does that provoke the idea of God allowing his creation to be unmanageable or even corrupted by his own admission? It goes against God's very nature ppl! Sin can't even be in God's presence according to scripture so why would he contradict himself by allowing it or even using it for his plan his good? Another deception by the scribes who had ulterior motives to deceive the ppl! If sin or evil is necessary then why create a flood to eradicate it? Why destroy Sodom & Gomorrah if evil is necessary?! Satan was kicked out of heaven because of sin/evil if I'm not mistaken so how could God get pleasure out of it??

[@giaarmany7329]

God ordained everything? Brenton's English Septuagint 1851 Jeremiah 19:5 and built high places for Baal, to burn their children in the fire, which things I commanded not, neither did I design them in my heart: Not this!!!!!🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

[@zacharybaker695]

There are many seemingly paradoxical aspects to God in the Bible. But it stands to reason that as created beings we will never fully understand God so there are going to be aspects of him that we will not understand but that doesn’t mean that they are wrong

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@@zacharybaker695 God doesn't desire man's rebellion. Nor does he desire idolatry. If God fore ordained idolatry that would make God seem pretty hypocritical. Because he says "don't commit idolatry" yet fore ordains it according to calvinism. I think God is in control (able to interfere with) all that happens or it wouldn't happen. As he is omnipotent.

[@m.gwhite8899]

I know you didn't mean to, but it did sound like you said Gabriel is God at 5:05.

[@evanu6579]

Supra Calvinist According to his belief, I think he’s saying that Satan is god.

[@DustinClidence]

Evan U 🤦🏼‍♂️ Looking at the ministry of John Piper how can you justly say that?

[@donaldhicks3359]

Probably because in the Bible he says ythat he created good and evil.

[@User_at_777]

The King James is Old English. "Create" is more "reveal" in modern English. God's Light reveals there is darkness wherever His light is not shining. God's righteous Law reveals men's sin. God didn't make the darkness, and God doesn't make men sin, His goodness only reveals the darkness and evil that already exists.

[@beammeupscotty3074]

Conmen equals 1000's of confusing gods = conmen are known to be confusing and full of ship

[@mrgrossism]

Ah, yes. Let us imagine God's beautiful tapestry of child molestation, rape, murder, and genocide which he decreed to highlight his goodness!

[@elimartin4107]

God is not the Author of sin, but He does ordain it. If He didn't ordain sin, If He didn't plan our nature to take its course, if He doesn't endure our evil actions. His grace would not be adequately shown. Once we discover how terrible we are that is what brings us to trust Christ. Through his grace he shows us our ordained actions and out of love, terror, gratitude, and humility we come to Christ.

[@ScipioAfricanusI]

Well, god is a pretty bad teacher. Any public school teacher that answered a student that way'I'm the teacher.' Is both dismissive, quashes curiosity and is (definitively) dismissive. Isn't this ultimately 'god is mysterious, that's your answer. For a sceptic, that is insufficient. I don't write this to be dismissive of the pastor, I write this to say that there is very little room for debate. How can I (as a skeptic) ask questions that will elicit an answer I can appreciate (an appeal to humanistic values)? I do not see where there is a common ground for discourse between believers and non-believers other than either logic or natural science. If an argument is not amenable to reason, then I find it is insufficient and unpersuasive.

[@ScipioAfricanusI]

It is not, for me, whether god owes me anything, rather, can the notion of god make sense. I find the answer' god is mysterious' to be inadequate.

[@ScipioAfricanusI]

Isn't this starting with your conclusion? If you know god, are you then looking to find the rationalization for that belief? The question is' what is the proof for the existence of god'? One way of seeking truth is through reason. If there are fallacies or incoherence in an argument then it is not warranted to hold a belief. The example" God is all-good, and all-powerful' is not tenable if you acknowledge the existence of evil. I have felt that holding the position god is powerful and good (but not all powerful and all good) is a more viable position. The problem with this may be that if these are accepted, then there is an implication that there are actions that god does not control and therefore agency superior to gods. I subscribe to Okham's Razor: 'Given 2 equally valid explanations, the simpler of them is true.' This conforms to the 2nd law of thermodynamics: (to paraphrase) energy states tend to decline over time. In other words constructions flow from l greater complexity to less. Over time therefore, systems erode, not combine.

[@melissaverno1225]

Why Would God Ordain Evil?... Because He Is Evil.

[@wtom04]

+Sheep Dog WRONG! Your errant assertion is refuted with what the Bible says. Job 34:10-12 - 10 Therefore hearken unto me ye men of understanding: FAR BE IT FROM GOD, THAT HE SHOULD DO WICKEDNESS; AND FROM THE ALMIGHTY, THAT HE SHOULD COMMIT INIQUITY. 11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways. 12 Yea, surely GOD WILL NOT DO WICKEDLY, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment. The error with your understanding is that you will most probably take Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6 in isolation and out of context without ever reading other passages that give the context of what is being said in Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6. All the below passages prove you WRONG! 1) Jeremiah 6:19 - 19 Hear, O earth: behold, I WILL BRING EVIL upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT HEARKENED UNTO MY WORDS, NOR TO MY LAW, BUT REJECTED IT. 2) Jeremiah 9:12-14 - 12 Who is wise enough to understand this? Who has been instructed by the Lord and can explain it? WHY HAS THE LAND BEEN RUINED AND LAID WASTE like a desert that no one can cross? 13 The Lord said, “It is because they have forsaken my law, which I set before them; they have not obeyed me or followed my law. 14 Instead, they have followed the stubbornness of their hearts; they have followed the Baals, as their ancestors taught them.” 3) Jeremiah 11:17 - 17 For the Lord of hosts, that planted thee, HATH PRONOUNCED EVIL AGAINST THEE, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in OFFERING INCENSE UNTO BAAL. 4) Jeremiah 16:10-12 - 10 And it shall come to pass, when thou shalt shew this people all these words, and they shall say unto thee, WHEREFORE HATH THE LORD PRONOUNCED ALL THIS GREAT EVIL AGAINST US? OR WHAT IS OUR INIQUITY? OR WHAT IS OUR SIN THAT WE HAVE COMMITTED AGAINST THE LORD OUR GOD? 11 Then shalt thou say unto them, BECAUSE YOUR FATHERS HAVE FORSAKEN ME, saith the Lord, and HAVE WALKED AFTER OTHER GODS, AND HAVE SERVED THEM, AND HAVE WORSHIPED THEM, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law; 12 And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me: 5) Jeremiah 19:3-5 - 3 And say, Hear ye the word of the Lord, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I WILL BRING EVIL UPON THIS PLACE the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle. 4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; 5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to BURN THEIR SONS WITH FIRE for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

[@gregjay9933]

wtom, excellent response. Calvinists seem to be rather blind so I doubt if they will see the points you have made. Your point about Baal - I did not command it nor did it come into my mind; case closed.

[@johnellis7614]

Because Eve wanted to, "be like God, experiencing good and evil." For humans are freewill beings, not slaves to God and Eve being allowed to sin proves it. And no one is evil, for sin causes spiritual death and it is eternal death that is evil.

[@MgaTalunanKayo]

And you are good?

[@justmy2cents_]

Mankind was an experiment that went bad simply! How else can you explain God/Jehovah in saying: Genesis 6:6 "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart". Obviously it was a mistake or am I missing something??

[@vince6264]

"God will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind." (1 Samuel 15:29) Piper has a sermon about this. Search about "Why Does God Regret?" In a simple explanation, God still created man despite knowing that He'll feel sorrow later. It's just like Jesus knew that He'll experience so much pain on the cross but God still planned it because it is what must be done. And it's just like a father punishing his son with a rod even though he knew that his son will walk away from home. He know that his son will walk away from home if he discipline him, and it causes sorrow in the father's heart. But he still does it despite knowing the consequence. Listen to Piper's explanation. It's clearer.

[@justmy2cents_]

@@vince6264 But Jesus/Yashua in the garden of Gethsemane prayed to "let this cup pass from me" not once not twice but three times but theologians/Christian's would say he was a willing sacrifice?? So what gives?

[@leebard9335]

@@justmy2cents_ Because he had the authority to ignore God's will and save himself, but chose to accept God's verdict. He was regretting what had to be done but did it anyway.

[@justmy2cents_]

@@leebard9335 So then he destroyed his "beloved" creation,save for a few with the flood to cleanse the Earth once again just to have mankind do the exact same thing all over again???? That doesn't make sense coming from an omnipotent & omnipresent God does it???

[@leebard9335]

@@justmy2cents_ It does if you remember that God could have thrown us away and started again at any time if He wanted to. It pleased Him more to save some of us, simply because we COULD be saved. That's a Good God. That's a God worthy of worship, one who came to us as a servant to lift our burdens and DIED for us rather than obliterate us.

[@Christo-doulou]

God does NOT ordain evil! this is a RANK HERESY from the devil himself!

[@gregjay9933]

John Piper just said, “it is no sin in God to will that there be sin.” Could it be said it is no sin in me to will that there be sin? How can a Bible scholar interpret Scripture like that? The Calvinist’s interpretation of the potter is to say that God, as the potter, determines the future destiny of individuals. One is made for wrath and another is made for mercy. Rom 9 is not about the power of the potter to determine what the clay becomes, it is about the wise potter’s flexibility in working with the clay and responding to what the clay is like. Since the Jews had already hardened their own hearts, the potter is now going to make them vessels of wrath. How can a Holy God who is infinite in love, rich in mercy and Grace, and kind in all His deeds, will that there be sin?

[@gregjay9933]

Sheep dog, you seem to be saying that it is not sinful for a sinless God to sin, but it is sinful for a sinful person to sin. There is a major inconsistency here. Adam was sinless and he willed to sin - this made him sinful!

[@gregjay9933]

Sheep dog, I did not claim that you said God never sins. I simply highlighted your inconsistency. You misinterpreted my words- and isn’t this how Calvinism came about - misinterpreting the Word. In answer to your question, no, I do not see the crucifixion as sinful. The crucifixion was an act of love - Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. And yes, God planned that His Son would die in our place. It was an act of love, not an act of sin. Certainly the actions of each of the players, Judas, the Jews, the Romans, etc, was sinful. Jesus suffered and died because the love of the Father for us was/ is so great. Jesus paid the penalty for our sin through the shedding of His blood. God’s plan was certainly not evil, although Richard Dawkins says it was. God’s plan came about from a loving heart and God allowed the actions of sinful men to bring about the shameful death of His Son.

[@gregjay9933]

Sheep dog, remember I said God allowed the actions of sinful men to bring about the death of His Son. So, yes, God did use the actions of sinful men to accomplish His will, ie, that Jesus should die in our place. The difference here is that the Calvinist says that God caused or predetermined the actions of each of the players. The non-Calvinist says God allowed sinful men to do what they freely chose to do. It was not plan B because God knows the end from the beginning. God chose Judas to be a disciple knowing that Judas loved money rather than loving Jesus, etc.

[@gregjay9933]

Sheep dog, I don’t understand how this conversation leads you to say that I believe God gives us the evil ability to be able to reject Him. I clearly stated the non-Calvinist view is that God allows sinful men to do what they freely choose to do. God made man in His own image and part of that is man having free will - we are not robots. God did not give us evil ability, He gave us free will.

[@gregjay9933]

The Bible clearly teaches that it was an act of love that God sent His only Son to die in our place. Since the players involved performed evil acts, this gives rise to the question - should we attribute evil to God? This question has been debated for a long time by many Christians and Bible scholars. It is our view of God’s sovereignty that is going to determine which position we take. Marxist philosophy states that the means justify the ends. This view justifies the causing of evil actions to bring about a desirable outcome. I do not believe God caused the evil actions of men to bring about the death of His Son. Yes, God did plan for the death of His Son and He also allowed the evil actions of men to bring about His death. Without the shedding of blood we could never have been reconciled to God. But this does not mean we should attribute evil to God. God is infinite in love, rich in mercy and grace, and kind in all His deeds; how can we attribute evil to a God like that? I’m not sure what you mean by saying God’s will is not free. God is sovereign, meaning, He has the power and authority to do whatever He wants to do. I disagree with the view that, in our fallen state, we are evil all the time. There are many people who are not saved yet do good things. Look at all the altruistic people out there. You have posed an interesting question about Steve. I think God would answer the question by saying that He sent His Son to die for Steve and that His desire for Steve is that he be reconciled to God. In short, if God knows that Steve is going to hell, can Steve be saved? I believe Steve can be saved because the Bible says Jesus tasted death for all people. But since God knows Steve is going to hell, Steve has obviously rejected the offer of Salvation. Of course we can still pray for Steve, but it is up to him to accept the offer of Salvation.

[@davidbeesley3390]

So, God sovereignly and unconditionally damns some so that he can sovereignly and unconditionally show others just how swell he really is. What a sick concept of God.

[@Tanjaicholan]

David Beesley Jesus does teach For many are called, but few are chosen.” - Matthew 22:14. This is not double predestination. What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. - Romans 9:14-16

[@regandanielle]

Agreed

[@regandanielle]

Check out Soteriology101 That dude does awesome teachings exposing the fallacy of Calvinism. I also read his book “The Potters Promise” where he actually gives a logically coherent exegesis of Romans 9 (Calvinist’s fav proof text)

[@Palopp85]

@max marrero God dont need to save anybody.Adam rebelled against God.And we too.Nobody deserves grace.That's the point.If God would send everybody to hell and show nobody mercy he would be perfectly just loving and righteous.We humans are evil. Romans3:9 What then? Are we Jews[1] any better off?[2] No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”13 “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” 14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” 15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 in their paths are ruin and misery, 17 and the way of peace they have not known.” 18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

[@evelynerazohernandez9354]

Yes I agree very sick this is not the God I serve, Calvinist twist the word.

[@wtom04]

Calvinists contradict themselves and there is DOUBLE TALK in regards to whether or not God is the author of sin and evil. 1) "The sovereignty of God also teaches THAT GOD IS NOT THE RESPONSIBLE AUTHOR OF EVIL, that man is a free moral agent who is not forced to sin and who is responsible for what he does." - Grover E. Gunn, in his book, "The Doctrines of Grace", 1987, page 14. 2) "GOD IS NEITHER THE AUTHOR OF SIN, NOR SANCTIONS IT (APPROVES IF IT). HE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR SIN, THOUGH HE DECREED IT. Those guilty of sinning are responsible." - Jay Adams, in his book, "The Grand Demonstration", page 61, 1991. 3) "God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby NEITHER IS GOD THE AUTHOR OF SIN...." - Westminster Confession of Faith, III "Of God's Eternal Decree", item #1 4) Westminster Confession of Faith, V. "Of Providence", Item# 4 bottom paragraph it states...."as the sinfulness thereof proceedeth only from the creature, and NOT FROM GOD, WHO, BEING MOST HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS, NEITHER IS NOR CAN BE THE AUTHOR OR APPROVER OF SIN." 5) The London Confession of Faith, Chapter 5, Of Divine Providence, #4 - The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his providence, that his determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, which also he most wisely and powerfully boundeth, and otherwise ordereth and governeth, in a manifold dispensation to his most holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceedeth only from the creatures, and NOT FROM GOD, WHO, BEING MOST HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS, NEITHER IS NOR CAN BE THE AUTHOR OR APPROVER OF SIN." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BUT HOWEVER, you have the below following eminent Calvinist apologists and John Calvin himself making totally contradictory statements that is not in line with what is asserted by Grover E. Gunn and Jay Adams who are both Calvinists as well and the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the London Confession of Faith. 1) Loraine Boettner - "Even the fall of Adam, and through him the fall of the race, was not by chance or accident, but was so ordained in the secret counsels of God" - In his book, "The Reformed doctrine of Predestination, page 234 2) Jerom Sanchius - "Surely, if God had not willed the fall, He could, and no doubt would, have prevented it; but He did not prevent it: ergo, He willed it. And if He willed it, He certainly decreed it." - In his book, "The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination" page 88. 3) A.W. Pink - "Plainly it was God's will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens save as God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a bare permission, for God only permits that which He has purposed." In his book, "The Sovereignty of God" page 147, (1961). 4) A.W. Pink - "Not only did His omniscient eye see Adam eating of the forbidden fruit, but He decreed beforehand that he should do so." In his book, "The Sovereignty of God" page 249 5) Edwin Palmer - "IT IS EVEN BIBLICAL TO SAY THAT GOD HAS FOREORDAINED SIN. If sin was outside the plan of God, then not a single important affair of life would be ruled by God." In his book, "The 5 Points of Calvinism" page 82 6) Edwin Palmer - "All things that happen in all the world at any time and in all history-whether with inorganic matter, vegetation, animals, man, or angels (both the good and evil ones)-come to pass because God ordained them. EVEN SIN -- THE FALL OF THE DEVIL FROM HEAVEN, THE FALL OF ADAM, AND EVERY EVIL THOUGHT, WORD, AND DEED IN ALL OF HISTORY, INCLUDING THE WORST SIN OF ALL, Judas’ betrayal of Christ-is included in the eternal decree of our holy God." - page 120, Edwin Palmer - in his book, "The 5 Points of Calvinism". 7) Edwin Palmer - "SIN IS NOT ONLY FOREKNOWN BY GOD, IT IS ALSO FOREORDAINED BY GOD" - On page 122, 1980 in his book, ""The 5 Points of Calvinism". 8) William Shedd - "Nothing comes to pass contrary to his desire. Nothing happens by chance. Even moral evil, which He abhors and forbids, occurs "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God." In his book, "Calvinism: Pure and Mixed, page 37, 1986. 9) J. Gresham Machen - "All things including even the wicked actions of wicked men and devils -- are brought to pass in accordance with God's eternal purpose." In his book, "Christian View of Man, page 46, 1965. 10) William Shedd - "Sin is one of the "whatsoevers" that have "come to pass", all of which are "ordained". In his book, "Calvinism" Pure and Mixed, page 31, 1986 Finally we have JOHN CALVIN: John Calvin falsely taught that God is the author of sin and evil. 1) "Thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict." From Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion" - Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5. 2) "The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, NAY UNLESS IN SO FAR AS HE COMMANDS, THAT THEY ARE NOT ONLY BOUND BY HIS FETTERS BUT ARE EVEN FORCED TO DO HIM SERVICE." - John Calvin - Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11. 3) "I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have FALLEN BY GOD'S WILL." - John Calvin - Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 4. 4) "The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should." - John Calvin - Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter, 23, Paragraph 8. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The above is what I call DOUBLE TALK where Calvinists say 2 different things out of their mouths contradicting themselves.

[@Tanjaicholan]

What you call DOUBLE TALK is actually paradox. Do you know the meaning?

[@lianpeet3502]

Jai Mankondar I am SO confused right now. Doing much study, reading scripture more than ever before but really struggling with the Calvinist perspective and loving a god like that.

[@Tanjaicholan]

Lian Peet As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. - Genesis 50:20

[@bobbyadkins6983]

@@lianpeet3502 Don't let the Calvinists confuse you which is exactly what they will do if you keep listening to them.

[@leebard9335]

But no though? The Bible is full of the wicked being used against their will to serve God's purpose. Calvin didn't say anything in those excerpts that isn't straight out of both the Old and New testaments. From the Egyptians to the Pharisees, God was using them all.

[@dayasagar3324]

Yet it pleased the lord to bruise him

[@emilesturt3377]

When we are born we share traits - visible and behavioural - of our parents because it's in the genes. Sometimes genetic mutations randomly occur and people are born blind. These are both secondary causes. God is the creator of blindness as well as evil in the sense that he is the creator of all things and nothing would exist - including them - without Him, for in Him all things consist. This does not mean that He unilaterally creates these things on purpose... decides to make you look like your parents in the womb (you do by natural processes which God has set in motion and upholds anyway), or decides to create a disabled child. They are secondary causes via creatures within a fallen world. Likewise God Is Not determining soldiers to rape poor women and kill children in Ukraine right now... that's just utter unnesessary whack. God is not above the holy, righteous and good Law... the law which reflects Who He is... the God Who is light, love and perfection, Who humbled Himself and, via the events that He had predetermined and foresaw, took all the iniquitous tragedy and all the darkness and every demonic fury upon and into Himself upon the cross, in order, as the perfect offering, to fulfill the law, disarm all evil, reverse the curse and destroyed death itself - which held us in its power - by his very own death. He didn't come to set the captives free from, and free us from the wrathful consequences of, all powers that he was ultimately determining (making happen) in the first place... He, in love, relationally came to restore us and free us from powers that he had given a very real degree of sovereignty to in the first place. What He determines to do... who can resist ? No One ! But He also gives His creation a degree of room to go its own way... or not X

[@wtom04]

If God deliberately "ordained" sin and evil, then He would not have expressed regret and grief in Genesis 6:6. Genesis 6:6KJV - And it REPENTED the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it GRIEVED HIM at his heart. If you create something and then INTENTIONALLY engineer it for failure, then you shouldn't be feeling regret and grief afterwards. After all, you engineered it for FAILURE. If God created man and then INTENTIONALLY decreed his fall, then it makes no logical sense for God to feel regret and grief afterwards. Hence, the errant belief that God decreed the fall of man is debunked.

[@wtom04]

+Sheep Dog God did not decree that your daughter be permanently disabled. If He did, then that would make Him the author of sin and evil, thereby exonerating Satan and man. Calvinism's God is no different from Islam's God "Allah". James 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

[@wtom04]

+Sheep Dog God's foreknowledge of future events does not equal God foreordaining them. To say so is to imply that God "decreed" the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Rape of Nanking 1937, Pearl Harbor, the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and every rape, murder, child molestation, and every crime and wickedness that man commits in history.

[@wtom04]

+Sheep Dog If man has been predestined to perish wherefore is God's legal right to punish? Wherefore is sin? For if a man has been predestined to fulfill God's plan and he does so because he has no choice, then therefore whatever sins he does is because God predestined him to do, where is his sin? God therefore becomes the author of sin. So man was created to be what God predestined him to be, he has fulfilled God's plan, then he has obeyed God's will. Where then is man's sin? How can God proclaim a righteous wrath against those who do not obey His commands if He has predestined them not to obey His commands? How can God proclaim to be just when He creates a person to disobey Him, and then punishes that person for doing what he was predestined to do? So why would God predestine a person to love Him which is in essence God loving Himself through that person because that person has no choice? This doctrine of Calvin takes accountability and blame out of man's hands and throws it right into God's lap. If man creates a weapon and uses it to fulfill his plan to kill someone; who is guilty? the man who created the weapon or the weapon itself? In Genesis God says, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, to know good and evil" Does this mean we don't know how to choose between good and evil?

[@wtom04]

+Sheep Dog The Islamic Surah Ibrahim 14:4 - "And We did not send any messenger except [speaking] in the language of his people to state clearly for them, and ALLAH SENDS ASTRAY(THEREBY) WHOM HE WILLS AND GUIDES WHOM HE WILLS. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, section 5 - "some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation, and accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of those ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or death." The Calvinist "God" is identical to Islam's "Allah". Both are FALSE GODS.

[@wtom04]

+Sheep Dog What's the matter? Cat got your tongue??

[@davinci4660]

Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV) "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. "

[@simplearthling]

Your god has stuck again. Murdering little children for his own glory! www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-aj-freund-crystal-lake-20190424-story,amp.html You have the wrong god Tama, u might as well worship the devil

[@giaarmany7329]

Brenton's English Septuagint 1851 Jeremiah 19:5 and built high places for Baal, to burn their children in the fire, which things I commanded not, neither did I design them in my heart:

[@giaarmany7329]

Hahahahaa

[@cameronvinson]

Wrongdoings and Evil happens because People aren't Perfect and have a Freewill, and People have Abilities to think for themselves.

[@philipfarnam6013]

Suffering and dying babies and children don't have freewill. They just suffer and die. Doesn't matter if their parents pray or not. No gods involved. Or, if you assert there is a God, he either causes it or allows it.

[@grandconjunct]

* “...GOD WILLS THAT WHAT HE HATES COMES TO PASS” ”--John piper --July 1, 1998 Sermon entitled “ Is God less glorious because he ordained that evil be” * * “So when I say that everything that exists - including evil - is ordained by an infinitely holy and all-wise God to make the glory of Christ shine more brightly, I mean that, one way or the other, God sees to it that all things serve to glorify his Son.”--- Piper, John. Spectacular Sins: And Their Global Purpose in the Glory of Christ (Wheaton: Crossway, 2008),pg. 44 * * Of coure the bible teaches the opposite of John Calvinism and John Piperism > * *Isa 30:1 "Woe to the rebellious children," declares the LORD, "Who execute a plan, but not Mine, And make an alliance, but not of My Spirit, In order to add sin to sin; ( Murder, rape , false doctrine, blasphemy etc are not the Plan of God, he does not invent it nor determine it , human freewill plus depravity is sufficient to create sin , no help from an omni determining God needed , Calvinism makes depravity and sin meaningless and irrelevant .) God doesn't plan rape , he plans around rape ( ie Freewill / Arminianism ). 1 Tim 4:4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; Habakuk 1:13 Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You can not look on wickedness with favor. Why do You look with favor On those who deal treacherously? Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up Those more righteous than they? Hose 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by Me; They have appointed princes, but I did not know it. With their silver and gold they have made idols for themselves, That they might be cut off. 1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. Jer 32:35 "They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-Hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Moloch, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. 1 john 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. God does not create or cause darkness but only calamity and punishment (Isa 45:7 all translations except for KJV bad translation that Calvinists dishonesty always quote that verse from ) for sin brought about by evil wills that are free. Zephaniah 3:5 The LORD is righteous within her; He will do no injustice. Every morning He brings His justice to light; He does not fail. But the unjust knows no shame. Psalm 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good; How blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him! * God says to test him for goodness , John calvinsts say you are to evil to test God and dare to morally measure God your just to depraved to taste and see but they are not to depraved to test your test . Job 1:22 Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God. * Calvinists blame God for everything. but say everyone else gets the moral blame . even though alternate choice (freewill ) is necessary to have morality and personal blame.

[@johnsmith-rd3zx]

User: Ive donated to both antisex trafficking and pro sex work organizations.

[@regandanielle]

Piper means well I think. And I greatly respect him. However the logical end of Calvinism are total contradictions. Piper does philosophical backflips oftentimes to preserve the good character of God in light of his interpretation of Romans 9. Anyone who would like to listen to BOTH sides, check out Soteriology101 on KZbin. Dr. Leighton Flowers was a Calvinist for ten years and then the Lord brought him clarity on what sovereignty really means. He does awesome teachings exposing the fallacy of Calvinism. I also read his book “The Potter’s Promise” where he actually gives a logically coherent exegesis of Romans 9 (Calvinist’s fav proof text). His videos are well worth your time. I’m sorry, but Calvinism only gives more ammunition to atheists. Their arguments are so convincing, but the dichotomy they set up is what traps you into accepting it as biblical fact. Sovereignty does not mean divine meticulous control.

[@StudioEnergizerMV]

Im a calvinist and I agree. I think God is sovereign but I dont think He decrees sin. The fall was from freewill and through that sin we lost our freewill. Thats just my two cents though. Be blessed

[@coryalbright9798]

Calvinism is not a scriptural system

[@Texasguy316]

Interesting. The Bible says otherwise.

[@timfotusky5327]

Nothing glorifies God more. You need to keep reading.

[@bobbyadkins6983]

God is much greater and merciful than this man makes Him out to be. God didn't have to ordain sin and evil in order to make us understand everything about Him. If the angels and Adam had never sinned, God could have still taught us everything about Himself. God was and is a winner either way. This sounds very much what a Mormon believes. God says that evil is bad and an abomination to Him. People like this teach that evil is necessary. Who will you believe, this man or God?

[@wtom04]

Calvinists make God the author of sin and evil, thereby exonerating Satan and man. Their "God" is not the same God of the Bible. They will always go to such passages as Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6 in ISOLATION without ever taking Jeremiah 16:10-12, Jeremiah 22:8-9, 1 Kings 9:8-9, 2 Chronicles 7:21-22 into account which gives the CONTEXT of what is being stated in Isaiah 45:7, Amos 3:6, and in Romans 9. Calvinists falsely assert that God "decrees" sin and evil in an arbitrary and capricious way according to the "secret counsels of His will", and "according to His sovereign good pleasure."

[@felixthecat777333]

No such thing as election,Armenism or Calavanism Satan is in heaven according to Isaiah 65:25 and so are the fallen angels in 1 Corin 6:3. 2 John 2:2 says Christ died for the sins of the reader and the whole world and they will ALL be SAVED in GODS TIME .Salvation BELONGS to the Lord. This is further cemented in by where it says it is by Faith one is saved and it is NOT of OURSELVES. IT IS A GIFT. Romans 3 says there is absolutely none who even seek God ever. And fallen angels are here with us IN MANKIND so they will be saved also in mankind (Daniel 2:40-43)

[@86lanzo]

Either way you look at it God created Satan knowing that he would fall...knowing that he would drag humanity down...And God having the power to not let it happen allow it to happen...so either he permitted it or decreed it...Either way God is the author by virtue of being an all knowing creator.... love to hear your take on it tho...Ultimately..why does evil exist???..

[@wtom04]

+Sonny Your theology is way off. Fallen angels WILL NOT AND CANNOT be saved. This is confirmed in Revelation 20:7-10, Jude 1:6, and 2 Peter 2:4. Daniel 2:40-43 is talking about hybrid breeding where demonic DNA is mingled with human DNA just like it was back in the days of Noah and falls in line with what is described in Genesis 6:4. Fallen angels are capable of taking on bodily form and procreating with human women producing the Nephilim hybrid giants and other demonic hybrids back during the pre-flood era and post flood era. Numbers 13:33 and Amos 2:9 confirms this. Angelic beings taking on bodily form is confirmed in Genesis 18 and Genesis 19 and were capable of eating and drinking. It was the angelic beings bodily form that attracted the male homosexuals to Lot's house in Genesis 19:5. Back then hybrid breeding was very overt, but at present times this is a covert operation run by Satanic entities masquerading as UFO "extraterrestrials" who abduct people taking blood, semen, and egg samples to push their agenda. This will be full blown and become overt once the Anti-Christ comes into existence.

[@wtom04]

+Orlanzo Telfer God is NOT the author of sin and evil and for you to make the assertion that He is is a direct attack on the true nature and character of God. God permitted evil to exist, but He did not decree it. Evil came into existence with the fall of Lucifer who became Satan and his fall was self-generated on account of his immense ego, and pride due to Lucifer's great beauty and status as an angel of God - Ezekiel 28:13-17. Lucifer wanted to dethrone God with his 5 "I wills" declarations in Isaiah 14:12-15. In regards to man, God decrees disaster, calamity, and evil upon those who disobey and are unfaithful to Him. 1) Jeremiah 5:19 - 19 And it shall come to pass, when ye shall say, WHEREFORE DOETH THE LORD OUR GOD ALL THESE THINGS UNTO US? then shalt thou answer them, Like AS YE HAVE FORSAKEN ME, and SERVED STRANGE GODS in your land, so shall ye serve strangers in a land that is not your's. 2) Jeremiah 16:10-12 - 10 And it shall come to pass, when thou shalt shew this people all these words, and they shall say unto thee, WHEREFORE HATH THE LORD PRONOUNCED ALL THIS GREAT EVIL AGAINST US? OR WHAT IS OUR INIQUITY? OR WHAT IS OUR SIN THAT WE HAVE COMMITTED AGAINST THE LORD OUR GOD? 11 Then shalt thou say unto them, BECAUSE YOUR FATHERS HAVE FORSAKEN ME, saith the Lord, and HAVE WALKED AFTER OTHER GODS, AND HAVE SERVED THEM, AND HAVE WORSHIPED THEM, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law; 12 And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me. 3) Jeremiah 22:8-9 - 8 And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbour, WHEREFORE HATH THE LORD DONE THUS UNTO THIS GREAT CITY? 9 Then they shall answer, BECAUSE THEY HAVE FORSAKEN THE COVENANT OF THE LORD THEIR GOD, AND WORSHIPED OTHER GODS, AND SERVED THEM. 4) Jeremiah 32:23 - 23 They came in and took possession of it, but they did not obey you or follow your law; they did not do what you commanded them to do. So you brought all this DISASTER on them. 5) Jeremiah 40:2-3 - 2 And the captain of the guard took Jeremiah, and said unto him, The Lord thy God HATH PRONOUNCED THIS EVIL UPON THIS PLACE. 3 Now the Lord hath brought it, and done according as he hath said: BECAUSE YE HAVE SINNED AGAINST THE LORD, AND HAVE NOT OBEYED HIS VOICE, THEREFORE THIS THING IS COME UPON YOU. 6) 2 Chronicles 7:21-22 KJV - 21 And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, WHY HATH THE LORD DONE THUS UNTO THIS LAND, AND UNTO THIS HOUSE? 22 And it shall be answered, BECAUSE THEY FORSOOK THE LORD GOD OF THEIR FATHERS, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and LAID HOLD ON OTHER GODS, AND WORSHIPED THEM, AND SERVED THEM: therefore hath he brought all this EVIL upon them. 7) 2 Chronicles 34:24-25 - 24 ‘This is what the Lord says: I am going to bring DISASTER on this place and its people-all the curses written in thebook that has been read in the presence of the king of Judah. 25 BECAUSE THEY HAVE FORSAKEN ME AND BURNED INCENSE TO OTHER GODS and aroused my anger by all that their hands have made, my anger will be poured out on this place and will not be quenched.’

[@86lanzo]

I didn't mention sin. Because to say God is the author is sin is silly...because sin is the transgression of Gods laws..which comes from the person and character of God...God cannot go against his own Character..... Although..you can say sin exist because God exist.....sin comes from the law...the law comes from God...Sin exists by reason that God exist and agents with some level of free will exist....where there's no law there's no sin.. and as for evil "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7) Biblically Evil doesn't always mean immorality.....God does do evil but god isn't immoral.....in fact if God was to wipe out all life on earth now..it would be an evil act but it wouldn't be immoral....as a simple example....

[@evelynerazohernandez9354]

Who does this man think he is switching up the word pf God.... he needs Jesus .

[@xtolhim]

I've never seen any biblical evidence for God "ordaining" evil???

[@CBess]

I'm going to assume you're a Christian. There are several examples of God "ordaining" evil. I'll point to the most potent and relevant first, the crucifixion of Jesus. Please read Acts chapter 4 for details. In verse 28, note "to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." An OT example is in 2 Samuel 24. Definitions are important, so to be clear, "ordain" means to order, determine, or decree something. God bless

[@dexsea24]

Isaiah 45:7

[@evanu6579]

C Bess The Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus. This is why God has to prevent them because His time had not yet come. God allowed them to crucify Jesus because He planned that He would die for the sins of the world.

[@guidohlizzi06]

“From the first chapter of Job we learn that Satan appears in the presence of God to receive his orders, just as do the angels who obey spontaneously. The manner and the end are different, but still the fact is, that he cannot attempt anything without the will of God. But though afterwards his power to afflict the saint seems to be only a bare permission, yet as the sentiment is true, “The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; as it pleased the Lord, so it has been done,” we infer that God was the author of that trial of which Satan and wicked robbers were merely the instruments. Satan’s aim is to drive the saint to madness by despair. The Sabeans cruelly and wickedly make a sudden incursion to rob another of his goods. Job acknowledges that he was deprived of all his property, and brought to poverty, because such was the pleasure of God. Therefore, whatever men or Satan himself devise, God holds the helm, and makes all their efforts contribute to the execution of his Judgments. God wills that the perfidious Ahab should be deceived; the devil offers his agency for that purpose, and is sent with a definite command to be a lying spirit in the mouth of all the prophets (2 Kings 22:20). If the blinding and infatuation of Ahab is a Judgment from God, the fiction of bare permission is at an end; for it would be ridiculous for a judge only to permit, and not also to decree, what he wishes to be done at the very time that he commits the execution of it to his ministers. The Jews purposed to destroy Christ. Pilate and the soldiers indulged them in their fury; yet the disciples confess in solemn prayer that all the wicked did nothing but what the hand and counsel of God had decreed (Acts 4:28), just as Peter had previously said in his discourse, that Christ was delivered to death by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God (Acts 2:23); in other words, that God, to whom all things are known from the beginning, had determined what the Jews had executed. He repeats the same thing elsewhere, “Those things, which God before had showed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he has so fulfilled,” (Acts 4:18). Absalom incestuously defiling his father’s bed, perpetrates a detestable crime. God, however, declares that it was his work; for the words are, “Thou midst it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.”( 2 Sam. 12:12; Jer. 1:25; Is. 5:26; 10:5; 19:25; 2 Sam. 16:10; 1 Kings 11:31; 1 Sam. 2:34.) The cruelties of the Chaldeans in Judea are declared by Jeremiah to be the work of God. For which reason, Nebuchadnezzar is called the servant of God. God frequently exclaims, that by his hiss, by the clang of his trumpet, by his authority and command, the wicked are excited to war. He calls the Assyrian the rod of his anger, and the axe which he wields in his hand. The overthrow of the city and downfall of the temple, he calls his own work.” (Institutes of Religion, Book 1, ch 18)

[@guidohlizzi06]

YESHUA LIVES christopio In that case it’d say that.

[@illuminotme999]

Calvinism is the "weird uncle" of Christianity, and the "weird uncle" of Calvinism is John Piper.

[@danielomitted1867]

How is this supposed to be uplifting, encouraging or edifying?

[@del5582]

Brainless comment of the day.

[@illuminotme999]

@@del5582 God ordained it so take it up with Him.

[@del5582]

@@illuminotme999 If God is fully sovereign then salvation is purely at his whim. We are not saved through our works lest any man should boast.

[@DrChrisPM]

Calvinism is a popular but false philosophy. To get a Biblical explanation of Scriptures, Please study Provisionism / Traditionalism or Wesleyan Arminianism