Destiny 2 - IT ACTUALLY EXISTS.. The Winnower Above The Witness

[@EvazeOfficial]

Today we discuss updates on the First Knife and Winnower! Multiple characters seem to point at the fact that the Winnower (like Gardener) does exist. Maybe not in the form of a "Big Bad Villain" (Like the Witness), but as a force of darkness.

[@worldender9388]

If it's the "First Knife". I'd have to think there's probably another knife..

[@bobsterclause342]

What does witness mean? Think about it. What does winnower mean? The roles of the words can be deduced. Plus, we kniw how evil henchmen and dark lords work. Darth vader has the emperor. This isthe way of things.

[@bobsterclause342]

Um, it doesnt sound like you know that the winnower and gardener are the pyramids and the traveler. They cant interact in their true forms and these avatars are their game forms for interacting with reality.

[@BrazarB]

​@@bobsterclause342so you're saying the Witness's people, built the Winnower as in their ships?? That doesn't make sense, the Witness's people created the ships & as the Witness they were extensions of its will

[@denizesen1995]

what is the "triangle solar system and circle" image's name? im looking that graphic for some time @EvazeOfficial

[@Aves_1]

The winnower seems mainly to want to let life flow naturally into some final shape, while the witness wants to force the shape it desires onto the universe. This to me shows that they are different to some degree.

[@nicholascazmay2126]

The Witness sought to freeze the universe and stop the game. I actually think now that the Winnower was including the Witness when it talks about fatuous nihilists who prefer no existence at all and where no choice is preferable to any other. The Witness was a blight on the garden which the Winnower referred to, though it definitely is not exclusive.

[@Czejenesku]

Why are we still on this? Gardener is The Light, Winnower is The Darkness. "Gods created us" - both Light and Darkness lead this species to become the Witness.

[@lukasvillar9328]

Yeah, I think that Rhulk actually reached the same conclusion as the winnower but he simped so hard for the Witness that he was unable to realize it, it's ironic really.

[@Thanoswasright_]

Spot on comment

[@Zvxers7]

Gardner creates life and entropy, winnower slowly stops life and entropy The witness tried to stop life and entropy faster

[@50bricks]

Looks like the Winnower brought a knife to a gun fight

[@bloodmoon2345]

We even turned some of souls that made the Witness into a gun. The exotic Euphony is made up of the Witness' hands.

[@lemonbread2165]

And we’re gonna get Eros to turn him in one

[@alter6243]

The Witness brought the first amendment. We responded with the second.

[@CinematicClips2]

nice one

[@blulumen5420]

Boutta turn the Winnower into a shiny new gun and use its face as a helmet.

[@Sxraj]

The Winnower better have insane drip 🗿

[@nahfr.]

You see what the witness was wearing? The winnower has no drip

[@TyBe-uo4ud]

pretty sure the winnower is like a formless entity, that would probably be very simplistic. since it's all about simplicity.

[@colinjones8265]

Facts, expecting nothing less

[@bloodmoon2345]

It's gonna be...."majestic" as the winnower always says to Oryx.

[@DiogoPace]

The Winnower is Alex Pereira? So it has come full circle

[@TempusVulpi]

I don't think we'll ever meet The Winnower nor do I think it's an individual, it's just one of many names for The Darkness as a whole, just as The Light has many names. They transformed themselves into 'rules' of our universe.

[@jesseritchie9282]

Which is what Savathun is doing

[@jmatrix010]

Destiny 3? They got to have a big villain for that

[@Robert-oe7uh]

So you're basically saying the next three Destiny 2 expansion packs are going to have us fighting the same three enemies again for 59.99 a pop

[@714KH]

@@jmatrix010 We still have Savathûn and the Vex.

[@ringomandingo1015]

I mean it spoke to Oryx and us. Maybe Eris was just doing a LOT for translating whatever the artifact was emitting.

[@courtlandjones]

Honestly, I'm starting to think The Witness... it's the witness of The Winnower.

[@saikopomp]

Like eyes of the winnower

[@nero9783]

​@@saikopompno. Like the first to actually see the winnower. I guess

[@Sol_Invictus1997]

The ideology of the Winnower and Witness are completely different.

[@Honed-]

@@Sol_Invictus1997 winnower wants to destroy survival of the fittest type mentality, and witness wanted to control.

[@SnowTheKitsune]

Closest to Winnower believes actually was hive with sword logic and Witness said it was joke even if Winnower wasnt strongest life to survive.

[@damonm.]

Witness went from "We" to "I" quicker than Eddie Brock ditching the Venon symbiote LOL

[@somethingthesomething]

Lol there's no I in witn.....nevermind😢

[@Zvxers7]

​@@somethingthesomethingwwetness to witness?

[@helioa8191]

I don't think the "Unveiling" book was written by the Witness. The language used on that book is completely different from the one the Witness uses. Also, the book was translated by Eris from the same device that gave us the vision of our clone in the end of Shadowkeep. In the vision it was the Witness speaking to us, always using "we" and not "I", as in the book. Why would it speak to us in the vision with his usual tone and pronouns, then give us a book from the same device where he speaks and puts himself completely out of character? From the 1st page of "Unveiling": -"But imagine the abomination of a world where nothing can end and no choice can be preferred to any other.". Isn't what the narrator classifies here as an abomination the exact idea the Witness have for the final shape? This alone should rule out the Witness as the author of Unveiling. The narrator in "Unveliing" uses an expression in the book that we saw usage before the Witness and even D2 were a thing: "Majestic, Majestic". This same expression is said to Oryx when he is in the deep in the Books of Sorrow Verse 4:2. There is an entity speaking to Oryx on this verse and the way it speaks again does not matches the Witness tone at all. The entity literally tells Oryx to "relax". Can you image the Witness asking anyone to relax? Me neither. I think in both this verse of Books of Sorrows and Unveiling, that's the Winnower speaking, not the Witness.

[@rytr0nious]

Yes, you are correct. This entity is The Deep and is specifically notated in earlier lore to be in an entirely different plane of existence, even different than throne worlds. Bungie really needs to stop trying to retcon lore and just keep going with the story. The early game was clearly intended for Oryx to be the big bad of the universe and for him to have a master which was "The Deep" or a personification of darkness itself.

[@714KH]

@@rytr0nious I don't think Oryx was ever intended to be the big bad. We see pyramid ships in early D1 trailers. I just think the Witness was invented later when the concept of darkness was fleshed out and they figured it would be terrible for our heroes to try and kill a cosmic entity necessary for our existence

[@supergatorhator]

Unveiling was written as a metaphor for the Witness being abandoned by the Traveler and the precursors reforging themselves into the Witness to stop the Traveler from uplifting species and prolonging their suffering. The book itself repeatedly says that it is metaphor and not literal, so I'm not sure why so many people are suddenly taking it literally.

[@vopogon3248]

I was waiting to see a lore channel cover this. When I heard it I was shocked

[@marcocunha]

I was listening to this while pruning plants in my garden. It felt very strange.

[@bruhm0m3nt123]

It might just be me, but I do hope Bungie doesnt go the route of killing the winnower. Its a cosmic force, same as the gardener. Something like that feels, to me, like something you simply cannot kill. Its too powerful. In the same way as you cant kill the gardener but can kill the traveller if you try hard enough. It would feel weird if we were to kill the winnower bc its a cosmic force without malice or pride or anything as it is above it

[@levicarpenter5509]

Tbh I think the realm that they both reside in is most likely beyond our reach

[@JustinMcGee-be8fu]

I doubt they would ever make it into an actual character. It would be like killing an idea. You cannot kill something that has no body. You cannot kill something that has no form.. its purely information. Information cannot be destroyed. If we killed with winnower it would be like killing the concept of entropy. Entropy is NEEDED in the universe or life runs amok and everything descends into an over crowded chaos. Things need to be removed from existence otherwise there is no room for new growth to happen. Same reason the gardener must continue to exist, if all things fall into entropy then nothing can exist at all. They need each other to be present or there will be nothing at all.

[@gson7288]

Naw I think D3 is we leave with the traveler mayb the veil if they reconnect bt my OG thought ws we leave wit the traveler go to a new solar system n deal with watever else. The traveler nvr stays for long so it has to leave n the people will have to learn how to live like people in rl, n no more terraforming or freebies just regular living

[@714KH]

I'm convinced its necessary for our existence so killing it would prove really counterproductive and stupid on our part. A better story would probably just be Savathûn wanting to become the gardener and winnower and make herself a rule of the universe in their stead

[@714KH]

@@gson7288 The Traveler only left to escape the Witness. It has no reason to abandon us anymore.

[@J99___]

To me I get the vibe that the traveler and the veil are the light and darkness. The traveler is the gardener and the veil is the opposite. The winnower, as its name suggests, is the creator of these two and overseer of the garden of the universe. It believes balance and for the universe to take whatever shape fate and survival of the fittest guides it. The Witness is an avatar of the veil much like how the guardian is an avatar of the traveler. Now that the witness is dead after attempting to force a final shape, a new avatar must take its place in the vacuum of darkness power as per the winnower’s balanced design. The Veil will likely gain a new avatar soon.

[@robert2german]

It is important to remember that since the Witness is a compound being, there may be at least one voice in its chorus that does speak like the author of Unveiling.

[@bibitta]

I always thought that the garden was just the primordial goop before the start of the universe with like virtual particles coming into existence and then just destroying themselves. So that the gardener and the winnower are just personifications of order and entropy, so like they aren’t super real… but like still exert force. So like the traveler isn’t the gardener but was made by it. Also the rule change is the Big Bang

[@gson7288]

I thought the gardener ws the traveler. Thts wat I been goin off this whole time

[@The_Art_of_Music_Official]

The only thing with that is that the story describes entire universes that have come and gone, every time the vex being the winners. Also, not too sure how this would incorporate paracasuality

[@ayobeemo8117]

I don't think they're personifications since they're having conversations with each other and the winnower mentions it's hands

[@bibitta]

@@ayobeemo8117 personifications, as in person-ified. So like it didn’t necessarily happen but like it’s being represented with humans. But maybe they are idk

[@ayobeemo8117]

@bibitta my bad, I'm geeked. I thought you meant they're just conciousness. But then again you may be correct. We can't really fathom what beings that exist outside of the universe look like. I used to always thought that the Veil Statues were what the Winnower may have looked like

[@LegendaryFenrir]

If you think about it, the gardener is the one who forged the knife. The traveler blessed its people first with knowledge, with power, with no purpose. The darkness, the winnower, reached out and gave the knife purpose.

[@siegfriedpintar]

I was very surprised and disappointed to see that the raid armor sets only have lore for the class items :(

[@Dietghostscp2107]

A-greed!

[@eotwkdp]

Gardener and winnower Both not evil nor good. Just doing there purpose. Every new garden is different… well except the weird gardens where the vex win. I like to imagine just 2 god entity’s just staring at another vex garden bed (vex consumed universe) winnower just grabs his/her shears. “Snip snip snip snip”

[@shadyrebob5999]

I agree with your take. The Witness, Traveler, Guardians, Hive Gods, etc., etc. are all tools of the Gardener and Winnower. Not necessarily good or evil. Just look at the Guardians since Beyond Light. We used dark and light. Both can be used for good or evil purposes.

[@adamboy0559]

@@shadyrebob5999it is just how it’s used. The witness chose to use the dark for evil things. It chose to do what it seen as “perfect” we use the dark just as it does. We just chose to actually do what is right with it

[@eotwkdp]

The garden is the universe I like to imagine the gardener sometimes speaks to its best chosen Much like how the winnower spoke to oryx. Oryx is doing his own thing while following some principles of the winnower. Oryx is just way more enjoyable to talk to compared to the witness

[@metek8926]

It will be fascinating to meet the winnower the true controller of the darkness.

[@phoenix9531]

That's why I played Destiny 1. I wanted to see the epic conclusion to this 10 year saga that was set up in that story. Instead we got a filler villain introduced mid-saga and the things people wanted to see originally were postponed years into the future. Only because they wouldn't know how to top that story against the winnower, in my opinion. It's so lame.

[@vinnypoo100]

Well to be fair if they gave us the winnowed straight off the bat then where would we go from there? It would just be pointless expansions past that.

[@vinnypoo100]

Winnower*

[@iCore7Gaming]

​@@phoenix9531 cry more

[@suminternetsht290]

@@vinnypoo100were about to fight the aeons before

[@psycoklown8461]

Winnower = The Idea. Witness = the force. Gardener /traveler are the same just opposite. We choose light or dark. The witness sought to "carve" out the light. The travel watered the the seeds of life. But who or what planted the seeds? Who or what removes the rot? Just my thoughts.

[@echo-1487]

I still can't believe the actor Brett Dalton, who played Agent Grant Ward / Alveus - "Hive" in Agents of SHIELD, also voiced The Witness. Big W from Bungie for choosing him to voice an iconic villain. Similarity between Hive and the Witness is that they're both an ancient, hivemind like beings that want to meet their "deities", just like Hive wanted to meet Kree and The Witness with the Traveller. Each of them in their own way... Both of them as a hivemind like beings, they have access to preserved memories of their previous hosts/species, can kill with a gesture and control their followers. And lastly, they both pursue their own goals.

[@714KH]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Hive aren't a hive mind, Luzaku even says they make their own choices. Hive mind would be more like the Vex. Witness isn't one either. It had a strong will due to the penitent faction but dissenters prove it didn't have full control over the entire chorus's thoughts

[@echo-1487]

@@714KH No, you're correct. But I was speaking about the character Hive from Agents of Shield.

[@714KH]

@@echo-1487 Oh I'm sorry it was late, I misread what you wrote!

[@mariomays8022]

Evaze ! ( or anyone trying to find the raid collectibles , there’s is one on the second encounter - above the huge green statues , climb ontop and keep climbing towards the statues. ( let me know if you need more direction ) there an “ Apple 🍏 “ there between the statues. Drops a new lore book.

[@AedanCaldwell-f3g]

Maybe the traveler is the gardener and the veil is the winnower because didn't the witness originally get its power from the veil after the traveler first fled

[@HungryTod]

It's always a good day when Evaze uploads.

[@firedragon04]

What if the Witness just read the Unveiling like us and took it upon its self to be the first knife, believing the constructs of Gardener and Winnower to be manifestations of life and creation, and memory and dream.

[@likwid_smoke]

The unveiling is the witness speaking

[@firedragon04]

@@likwid_smoke oh yeah why did I think it was written from the winnowers perspective? My bad

[@JustinMcGee-be8fu]

Its likely that the unveiling is just the way the witness and its people used to justify their actions according to what they had seen. All they're describing is the concepts of life and entropy. Its hard to take anything written by an entity or a people who were overly obsessed with "purpose". Given enough time one can reason oneself into anything and believe that what they're doing is the right course of action. The witness was nothing but the living embodiment of the anger of a people who begged to be told why things are the way that they are and were met with only silence. Its because there is no reason why things are the way that they are, things just are and its up to you to determine what to do with that information. I can get why they were upset, it sucks. There is no grand cosmic answer, just the never ending silence of the universe and all you can do is stare up at it and wonder.

[@likwid_smoke]

@@firedragon04 I'm not saying everything in there is true. Just that it's from the perspective of the witness.

[@addisynsanders3805]

@@likwid_smoke…you sure about that? Let me rephrase: why do you think this is from the perspective of the witness?

[@shaynethegmann]

Tbf the traveler had been restarting the timeline because in every other timeline everything ended, the witness was an anomaly iirc

[@alter6243]

Remember in Lightfall when Maya hears a voice talk to her in her own voice? That couldn’t have been the Witness because the Witness would have at least known the Veil was in Sol. It would have sent it’s Disciples to all of the planets in Sol until it found the Veil.

[@shadyrebob5999]

Witness=Sauron? Winnower = Morgoth? The Witness is basically a tool of the Winnower in the same way Sauron was to Morgoth in Tolkien lore. I don't think the Traveler = Gardener even though it is referred to as such by characters. I think the Traveler and the Witness are/were tools of the Gardener and Winnower who can give powers to whoever they choose but may not be able to directly influence the "game:.

[@gson7288]

See I just posted I swore the gardener ws the traveler. So is the gardener the traveler ? I need a yea or no from sumone damn it haha

[@Crusader171]

@@gson7288that friendly hive witch refers to the traveler as the gardener so it probably is

[@heronyx1843]

In lore tabs from a while ago; its been confirmed that the traveller IS the Gardener; we havent seen the Winnower or know very much about it. people said the Witness is the winnower, but i disagree

[@Gothmog3019]

Love the Silmarilion comparison.

[@tonyespo1363]

The theory I like is that the winnower and gardener are HEAVILY personified in unveiling. They're written as if they are conscious, thinking beings, but I believe they're just the dark and light. Fundamental forces of the universe, like gravity. I think the witness sees these forces at work and assigns them purpose in an attempt to force understanding from them. It sees the "battle" between light and dark and then picks a side. Then, to give itself purpose, it believes to ve acting out the darkness' will. However, it has no will. Like gravity, it just is.

[@tonyespo1363]

Can't edit comments on mobile?? Whos idea was that?? Lol

[@supergatorhator]

Exactly this. There isn't a literal winnower or gardener - they're metaphors the Witness uses to describe those cosmic forces.

[@TheStrubble1]

Evaze I doubt you'll see this but I wanted to bring up a theory about the 9 with you and the community. When Mara brought the 900 passengers from Yang Liwei including herself into a new form of existence we now know as the awoken. There were 9 unaccounted passengers among the newborn awoken. Later the chosen leader Alice Li is accused of deicide. For she could have given them all divinity but denied them this higher form of existence. My theory is that prior to Maras choice for the future of the crew. Somehow 9 unknown passengers made their choice first and actually acsended. Once they were divine they could exsist outside the laws of time and soace which could explain any appearance theyve made both before and after the creation of the Awoken. Sorry for the rant just want this to be posted somewhere for some dialgoe to discuss this theory and have posted this to you and Byf lol.

[@crosshairsyt]

From the sound of it, maybe the Gardner took the form of the traveler and maybe the winnower took the form of the veil, there was a scene with the veil behind the witness like it was watching over it

[@supergatorhator]

More likely that the Gardener and Winnower are the metaphors the Witness uses to describe the Traveler and Veil.

[@SweatyOni]

I always felt that the witness served someone and now I feel that it is the case especially after how easilly we defeated the witness

[@ThatguyAver562]

I mean he took a story mission a raid and a 12 man cooperative mission he is basically tied with Taniks at this point haha!

[@JustinMcGee-be8fu]

Yeah. I think thats more of bungie writing themselves into a corner and having to make a game out of it. Its a really interesting story but the witness was hyped up to be the BBEG of all creation, but it isn't. Its hard to come up with something that are basic fundamental laws of reality and then figure out a way for your players to fight with it lol. I DO like that they made the final kill on the witness something everyone got to do, but at the same time it sorta made it feel a bit hollow. We killed this mega threat in what amounted to a regular ol public event, as epic as an event it was.. there was no challenge in it at all.

[@gson7288]

@@JustinMcGee-be8fukinda like dragonball super. God powers meets a god kills a god now wat😂😅

[@BrazarB]

The Witness does not "serve" anyone or anything, it does its own thing. It outright says thr God's that forged it can't tell it what to do

[@714KH]

Jesus the whole point of the Witness was that it had its own ideas on how the universe should be and would force it upon the traveler/us. It wasnn't serving anything it was obsessed with pupose and afraid of chaos.

[@brmawe]

Although The Winnower is most likely real I don't think it has a physical body like all of us do. These beings are on a higher plain of existence. If we somehow ever encounter the winnower or gardener it would be some type of lucid dream. Something apon those lines.

[@Blessedmunch]

I love the detail that the voice of the witness has less and less voices speaking in unison as we destroy its dissenters

[@Rustyhobo5]

so perhaps we have just threatened the winnower, especially with the traveler now spewing light and dark.

[@angrygamer6584]

Calling it! Winnower gonna have the “Squared Fleet”!

[@TheChzburger]

So...could it be that we're finally getting back around to the entity once referred to as "the shapeless one?" The voice that persuaded both The Precursors and Maya's team on Neptune?

[@aaronhiggs]

And the traveler is herald of the gardener.

[@dravendfr]

Thank you for making this video. I have been playing Destiny since the Destiny 1 beta. I’ve just logged in and found a cutscene showing how guardians apparently beat the Witness and everyone was celebrating. I guess I did a good job of avoiding spoilers. I figured the Witness would be a raid boss later in the season, not during the launch week. Logging in and thinking all of those years went down the drain for a passing cutscene because I hadn’t the time, or ability to get the DLC on launch week was… Well, it’s the most nihilistic I’ve felt toward a video game, that’s for sure. The people who swore to me that they’d be there with me when the story culminated don’t talk to me, or don’t log on anymore. I’m still waiting for the story to be more meaningful than a gaudy F.O.M.O. Thank you for making it seem like there’s something worthwhile to come back to at this point.

[@begreeen]

finally, I always knew the winnower and the witness weren’t the the same thing just like the gardener isn’t the traveler. It just gave off that vibe that they were separate entities. Essentially, the witness is a tool of the winnower, therefore the traveler is a tool of the gardener to carry out their game

[@Devil0027]

I said awhile ago it seemed like the precursor race didn’t just learn some revelation when they found the veil, like something revealed it to them when they found it. I’ve wondered if the Winnower is actually real Also if they started viewing themselves as “first knife” if there is others? Kinda like how it had disciples, was Witness a disciple itself to something bigger

[@XxDestroyah]

The witness had drip during salvations edge🔥

[@adamboy0559]

We have to damage it by ruining his drip 😂

[@itchyluvbumps_4173]

Sounds like Agent Smith to Neo. Why do you persist? "Because i choose to"

[@ZOMBIESrEMO_Official]

The veil creates the first knife. You see it almost happen on Neptune with the cloud ark. Also by introducing darkness into the traveler reverts the game back to normal as the traveler can now remember and think instead of acting on instinct. We literally gave an eldrich being a higher consciousness.

[@minthuta3288]

Winnower and Gardner Veil and Traveler Witness and Our Guardian

[@DJ_sub]

So your- your telling me we need to kill something above a god?!?!!

[@CreepFeeD]

And turn it into a gun!

[@Banana-Boi]

2:57 We have not killed any gods yet only strong entities that call themself gods. The Traveler is what a real god looks like. The Witness is but a pretender.

[@MonkeyDChevy]

@@Banana-Boithe traveler isn’t a god it’s a tool. And we have killed a god. All of the worm gods are real gods. Just not human gods. Imo a real god. Could protect itself and the traveller cannot.

[@TyBe-uo4ud]

killing the winnower doesn't sound like it would work. as death is a concept that it literally exist to fuel it. literally death would be like it's own heart, enacting it would make it beat.

[@MelancholicBodhisattva]

​@MonkeyDChevy couldn't Guardians be seen as the Traveler protecting itself, and others? No Light from the Traveler, no Guardians, supers, rezzing, etc, and Goldem Age humanity was absolutely stomped without the Traveler intervening.

[@theswearjar5909]

I loved when he said we will not yeild in the raid after 2nd dps

[@ginew07]

“WE. WILL. NOT. YIELD!!!” Goes so fucking hard

[@Taijan1]

So the witness is the Sauron to the Winnowers Morgoth.

[@vinacar]

now do we think the traveler is just the gardeners witness?

[@syllawblood]

In the tale the gardener is the one that introduces chaos. The winnower seems to be truly ambivalent

[@vblegh1620]

that line about gods forged us both is so fucking cool

[@SlimeyZockt]

Since the Witness thinks of itself an extension of the Winnower, but maybe that's because Unveiling was made, so that the Winnower can clarify that it does not seek and end through such means, for the final shape is something natural to the Winnower And perhaps that is why the Winnower tried again with Maya, to make her into a second knife. Maybe the Winnower consideres the Witness to be a failure

[@jesseritchie9282]

It is when it comes to their philosophies

[@TimeLordNivek]

Wait what happened with Maya?

[@SlimeyZockt]

@@TimeLordNivek maya got some whispers to merge herself with others, as revealed by the veil containment lore. At least it was heavily implied that Maya got instructions on how to do it

[@Silky_Chan]

the witness is such a cool villain

[@Trevoroxx]

Abaddon made a cool video about gnosticism and its connection/potential inspo for destiny. I recommend

[@Kuhmodo]

That' so funny because someone in the comments said "So we need to kill someone above a God?" and my first thought was "Well there's the false God and then there's THE God." lol

[@brnt.9319]

I think it’s more along the lines of the Winnower being another name for the Darkness, like others have said. The Darkness is a cosmic force, an influence, like the light aka the Gardener. When the Traveler - equivalent to the Witness in being a tool to fulfill an agenda - abandoned the Veiled, the Darkness - “Winnower” - came to them. The Veiled witnessed the power of the darkness, they were the first to fall to it. Converging into one entity, the Witness twisted the Darkness’ agenda into one fueled by revenge and seeking dominance and sole reign over the universe. The Darkness, much like a hand, can shuffle the pieces. But the Witness, the knife, is the physical manifestation that carries out the agenda.

[@OneTato]

I think the real first knife is the traveler who's light changes things and directly led to the winesses' creation.

[@bradwhite5884]

We are gonna meet more beings like The Witness before we meet the Winnower, just the Witness is personal for us because he was responsible for the collapse, so we are gonna see more beings who uses the darkness to their advantages, uses and such, so yeah

[@phoenix9531]

Except I can't take "The witness caused the collapse" seriously at all, because the witness as an antagonist was so obviously created and shoehorned into the Destiny Saga in its last 4 years, contradicting the set-ups of previous lore. Bungie flat out admitted not knowing what the Darkness was supposed to be at the beginning of D2 and instead of crafting the villain fitting with the established lore (which would have been a much more epic, more philosophically interesting, but also more challenging to write kinda story) they decided to change course and create a much more manageable enemy, to also leave room for bigger baddies in the future. They basically downscaled the story and switched out villains mid-way.

[@clayp1989]

I think the 9 are part of it. I think some of them are the light (circle), the grander, the creators, made traveler etc. Some of them are darkness (triangle), the winnower, the destroyers, helped make witness, etc I beleive there is a 3 part… the(square) They helped created the bet between the 2 and they are tied in both areas or a separate one all together. Just my thought as the cosmic beings that they are…

[@giovannygonzalez4800]

I am a tripping or has everyone missed the conversation in the final shape where they specifically called the traveller The Gardener. I believe mithrax said it a few times and also mentioned in the traveller balls you find. Maybe i heard wrong.

[@bmorefranklucas]

Yes I just completed something in the pale heart with a hive wizard that said the traveler was the gardener

[@jamieheisel2759]

Hey Evaze, remember in forsaken when we woikd visit queen in her throne world. There was one time she had us leave because she had a visitor and her visitor didn't like guardians. Did we ever find out who that was. I'm thinking Savathun or Xivu but don't remember if we even ever was told.

[@SynKyller]

I swear. Destiny reminds me of a good anime sometimes. You beat the big bad then they become a part of the team (fallen, cabal) or the big bad was really a hench man for something worse (taken king, witness).

[@gabrieldidan]

when you vs some of the bosses in the paleheart they have names like the fang of the witness and the claw of the witness. i think thier maybe many other tools in the tool shed.

[@PyroNite36]

Does Light come from the Traveler, or does the Traveler just grant to people, but the Light itself is entirely seperate? Would there be other ways to gain the Light, or is the Traveler the only way in the universe to get it?

[@engengclown]

Its not surprise that as Traveler spread ghost with light, it had a counterpart that spread darkness. Celestial entity like Traveler wont be just one, or it wouldn't need to create guardian (to prepare for some kind of war)(just my speculation)

[@TheSapphireWolff]

the strongest and most adapted survive… yeah, take that, witness.

[@npc6254]

We know the traveler is the gardener so wouldn’t that make the veil the winnower? The veil is supposedly the dark traveler.

[@kurtru5selcrowe607]

Maybe the traveler is what the Gardener created to change the game like it suggested. Only it didn’t remain isolated from the rest of the variables like it wanted.

[@ismaelmeza3220]

I always speculated the existence of the Winnower since its name was revealed years ago in lore. This Winnower is the true being of darkness. The same can be said about the Gardener and the light. I see the darkness as a hierarchy. With the Winnower at the pinnacle. Directly below it, I believe are its hands. The Witness was one of them, and from lore, and the loose end, the other I believe is Taox, traitor to the Osmium Throne.

[@BxRob927]

Maybe we go and find Taox in the Heresy episode or in Frontiers?

[@axe2grind244]

Never bring a knife to a gunfight...especially against a pissed off Banner of War Titan.

[@VTOffRoadAdventures]

Winnower believes fully in strength of the fittest. We just proved we're fitter than the witness. What that entails for the future is unsure, but we beat the Winnower's tool on behest of the traveler/gardener. That means something.

[@rafaelgomes8835]

There is the possibility that the Winnower is the entity behind the Veil. We know so little about it and considering the fact that the Traveller is, by all means a sentient being that favors the material and creation, the Veil or whatever other name it could have to other civilization, should favors the immaterial and entropy. That's just an idea tho

[@deohere7647]

The game is a real thing that exsists in our world. It is a game of mathematics called The Flower Game. Look it up, it covers everything destiny is about.

[@pinkguardian3696]

I thinking that the traveler maybe used to have a voice and is maybe missing its voice were it now has to communicate through vision or symbols. If it can scream or something why not yell maybe its a broken off piece of a greater thing. The veil sounds like another broken piece that could connect. I feel like im reaching for something that could be there

[@ACRobinson]

I also need to ask the question, what about the 9? i forgot about them, do they have anything to offer in this part of our story?

[@durane123]

to me, bungie themselves is the winnower, they create all these challenges and enemies for us to fight and conquer. The witness was created by the bungie devs as the first knife. bungie as the winnower can continue making adversaries for us as long as they see fit.

[@Puddingskin01]

The Winnower is watching us and sounding like Shaxx about it.

[@LeftyPantaridis]

So the witness ended up carving the shape the winnower wants. Or at least accidentally started the universal progression towards it by picking a fight with us and losing. Thus us holding our place in the universe as the strong and the witness as lesser, meant to be discarded. Whether the witness wanted to or not he ended up doing the winnowers bidding.

[@camshaft989]

If light and dark is done, surely this isn't for future things to come

[@asdadd6304]

I think the Witness likes to think it is the knife of the Winnower, when really the Winnower has ideas along the lines of the Hive’s conception of the Final Shape, since an entity which was probably the Winnower communicated with Oryx. Ironically, in the campaign, the Witness calls the Hive failures for being too obsessed with the first knife to see the final carving.

[@kxngjoker9014]

The knife should be a Scythe that would be a proper representation of what the winnower is

[@JustinMcGee-be8fu]

Once we learned the origins of the witness, I think it became pretty apparent that while it was incredibly powerful it wasn't the cosmic force we might of made it out to be. The witness and the people he came from were incredibly powerful with the dark. The story in the garden might very well be true but the witness and its people were so focused with purpose that they might of drawn conclusions about their own part to play in the game and just took it upon itself to be "the first knife". I think all of this implies that the traveler itself isn't the gardener. From the story the gardener says that it will write itself into a law within the game. I think the two of them are still in that garden but what we're seeing is just that act by the gardener being manifested via the traveler. The entire story itself has been one about balance. There is no real good or evil, I highly doubt the winnower will ever be a raid boss for example. Because it would be like trying to fight the concept of entropy. It NEEDS to exist as does the light. I think whats going to end up happening is we are going to be spending awhile dealing with the ripple effect of the power vacuum left by the witness and its being gone is just going to let other powers who like to fancy themselves as the embodiment of the winnower pop up and we will smack em back down. The only way the game itself ends is when the universe ends, at which point both the gardener and the winnower will simply start up another round of the game as they have apparently done countless times already, just this time around its more interesting because the light is allowing more things to happen than it normally would have without it. Neither the gardener or the winnower are wrong, quite the opposite they're both right but thats the point. Both need to happen and eventually they cancel each other out before the whole thing just repeats itself. I will be very interested to see what the new BBEG is going to be from bungie, because its starting to look like they are wanting to continually up the anti, im not sure where they can go to make it a bigger threat than the witness was, at this point we've killed a bunch of demi-gods, not actual gods though they might say we've killed gods, no. We've slapped down some very powerful individuals who fancied themselves are gods but were not.

[@buzurk2_092]

Alright personal theory, the winnower, witness and traveler are simply just organisms birthed by the cosmic tides of light and dark however began to interpret and attune to one or the other to become unbelievably powerful and realize their own vision in what they find in the fundamental elements of light and dark

[@saganage6779]

Are we sure the Unveiling text was written by the Witness? It seems to me that it's coming from the perspective of the Winnower, especially after these revelations that the Witness is not the Winnower but the First Knife. The text describes a being who was at odds with the Gardener before time existed, and discovered the First Knife.

[@MarCoViTV]

After reading that it’s exactly what I thought the traveler is not a being of good nor is the gardener… for the gardener/traveler bestowed power unto the witness not the darkness… and the darkness while remaining autonomous watched and planned for the witness to be failed hence introducing the guardians to the power of darkness… not as a corruption but as a disruption… because it knew the concept of a being like the witness was would be more than an idle threat but a static one that would endanger everything…

[@juju-madness1614]

Something I found interesting was how bungie may have taken inspiration of the Anti Life Equation from the DCU and come up with the final shape cause both objectives grant someone complete control to dictate a persons existence

[@Devil0027]

I don’t see how either relates. ALE took a math formula and took over the minds of all by proving life was futile. The Witness was trying to end the universe by stopping existence in place all together. ALE was localized by who heard/saw it, Witness was gonna do this to the universe at once

[@phoenix9531]

When taking about such broad concepts as the futility of life, I feel like there's much more universal and philosophic texts that serve as inspiration for all kinds of modern stories. For instance, you can go back two thousand years to Buddhism's four noble truths of suffering for that.

[@FaytVanguard]

Taken king < Witness < windower < the goth queen < your credit card < xur < the nine

[@turborambo6152]

Winnower about to be a new gun

[@charmboy5241]

There’s prob two mysteries I hope we figure out throughout the season or next expansion. The vex over the years have been sorta, meh, kinda forgotten but one thing Calus said (I believe i forgot who but it was said) that the vex we been fighting the whole time has been basically peasants n farmers so fighting an actual army version of the vex would be fun. One comic horror the awoken know is a space like creature that will appear n leave no survivors left n its left to rumors of its existence, that one prob could be a season pass n not an actual expansion

[@soggywater8939]

I feel like there is dominance in terms of the witnesses many voices The anger is the one towards The end of The final shape and The calm is the one during most of lightfall

[@theesnowman9265]

Can't wait for the next enemy giant octagon ships!

[@p_j_sch5008]

I wonder what the Gardener and Winnower would even Do if they could interact with the univers properly

[@johnny44937]

Essentially the witness was just basically the first guardian of the darkness lol

[@kenshin391]

Wasn’t the original story about the Traveler stealing the power from the Winnower and it was the darkness chasing the Traveler, but the 2 guys who left during D1 who wrote the story could sue Bungie for fully using it. That’s why the story was broken up and changed so much.

[@ariesmccoy]

We are but grapes in a cosmic champaign. The more we struggle in adversity the more complex and amazing we become. The gods are just thirsty.

[@MobstaLobsta123]

Heres an idea We know the gauedener is The Travaler, the source of the Light, its not good or evil, its jsut a power source and those blessed bynit do as they wish. But the Witness isnt the source of Darkness, the beings it grants power to have to bow to it, play a part in The Final Shape. But we know Darkness its self isnt good or evil, just like the light, depending on who uses it it can be used for good or evil. But the Witness had such influence over darkness it over shadowed its source. Just like The Traveler The Winnower is the source of Darkness, neither good nor evil, just the ying to the Travelers yang. The Winnower is probrably something like the traveler, a gaint machine like thing that blesses people with power, but what they do with that power is up to them

[@Sansyboi43]

I feel like the witness is a captain of the darkness and the new guy is either a king or a side kick of the ruler of darkness who will be the final boss

[@FishBoneCh]

We know the gardener and winnower absolutely must be existential or supernatural beings/entities. I want these existential forces to be expounded upon in game

[@raffertykeane-eastwood2046]

I now believe that the winnower is so powerful that it is beyond light and darkness, the same can be said with the gardener, because the 1st saga is over and marks the end of light and darkness meaning that either bungie has dropped these two entities or that they will appear with undiscovered power that is beyond light and darkness and so we will find these beings outside of Sol

[@TheForbidden_1ne]

I wonder how the IX fit into all this. They've been absent for a really long time now