Destiny 2 Lore - Two Truths, Two Lies... The Altar of Reflection, is Oryx returning in Witch Queen?

[@Mav3rickGh0st]

In regards to Oryx potentially coming back I think it's worth remembering also that the Hive on the moon, after devolving into heresy, not only embraced full Nokris-Styled necromancy but also discussed bringing Oryx back from the dead by augmenting their rituals with the pyramid's power.

[@Adam-ul2nz]

Furthermore Oryx brought back both his sisters after killing both of them *in their throne worlds* thus it is entirely possible for him to come back through Savathun bringing him back

[@billygames7107]

One hell of a sentence! I do thank you for the couple comas though, without those I might have passed out… cheers..✌🏼

[@timothyplemons2701]

Oryx is also a taken. Which means he could be brought back as a full taken.. maybe?

[@nickh4354]

@@billygames7107 this is why you don't get invited to parties Billy

[@Dreadnaught575]

@@timothyplemons2701 wrong

[@jetpackboy09]

Oryx coming back in Witch Queen be like: “You took everything from me.” Me who hasn’t even played D1 at all: “I don’t even know who you are.”

[@LegendaryFenrir]

D1 vets to Oryx: what did it cost you?

[@pakuskii__128]

D1 King's Fall completionists: How many times do we have to teach you this lesson, old man!

[@justin-iq2od]

Bro, you should play D1 and its expansions, if you like D2 then you will love D1

[@jetpackboy09]

@@justin-iq2od been thinking about doing that for a while now actually

[@justin-iq2od]

@@jetpackboy09 do it, its worth the time👌

[@avusyth518]

As my friends and I were discussing, we have a theory that "The Taken King will rise again," is both a reference to the fact that they are bringing back Kingsfall, yes, but we as well believe that "The Taken King" doesn't explicitly reference Oryx. "The Taken King," like the "King of Belgium" or the "Queen of England," is a mantle. A title. A crown that, for right now, has no head to rest upon. And perhaps soon, we will see who becomes the next Taken King.

[@kendry375_6]

imagine WE become the taken king. Imagine rocking that title "taken king"

[@notnik0]

The original taken king would be the witness as the taken were borrowed by oryx not created and that they ultimately serve someone else (the witness)

[@rootbeerguy690]

Ooh, that brings up an interesting idea then. Maybe this new Taken King will end up being Nokris, since Savathûn taught him Quria's power to Take in exchange for her learning his powers of necromancy, and his fate is pretty much ambiguous, we don't know whether or not he's truly dead

[@BrutalSkorpio]

@@rootbeerguy690 Savathûn didn’t actually teach Nokris anything. She tricked him into spilling his knowledge about necromancy, then she used him.

[@irunthepeg]

Maybe if they bring the raid back they put in a different character model like it's a new Taken King.

[@drakozash8153]

Make sure you do this weeks reflections Savathun does a new game of two truths, two lies and asks us a very interesting (if true) question about us and how we differ from her.

[@TheGreyShaman]

Best part is she’s asking the player not the guardians

[@New9500]

Not only that, there are multiple "Two Lies, Two Truths" you can get.

[@Briggsian]

@@New9500 I got "Osiris is dead. Savathun is dead. The Witness created the darkness. Your destiny lies outside this system" First is a lie, second is the truth (for now), third is a lie based on our understanding, and the last must then be true

[@Yoglers]

@@Briggsian maybe the Final Shape will lead up to a new solar system, and maybe then destiny 3

[@shoot2laugh]

@@Yoglers or maybe guardians are the final shape. But considering the purpose of the light to encourage branching expressions of the shape of things, would that not make us the perfect paradox if we were to be the final shape?

[@Sta_cotto]

Something to note on Savathun explaining the "truth" on why Mars came back...there are like 3-4 extra lines she has regarding that, if you managed to do more Altar visits last week, where she gives contradictory "truths", ranging from "it was me", to "it was the Witness", and even "it was the Nine", so I think we can take anything and everything she says regarding the fate of the lost worlds with a heaping helping of salt.

[@mythicaltwinkie8216]

Its Savathun, you take everything from her with a heaping helping of salt. shes the "god" of cunning and queen of lies.

[@bulletproofwhale5869]

Even though I have a feeling she was telling the truth for 90% of the campaign, she still needs to troll us Guardians from beyond the grave.

[@mythicaltwinkie8216]

@@bulletproofwhale5869 and for my last memory guardian, I will play an ancient song lost to humanity after the collapse that was by far the greatest source of culture. *Never gonna give you up starts playing*

[@markypops821]

@@mythicaltwinkie8216 Guardian got rick rolled even after he died and reborn kekw

[@slothfacts9390]

@@mythicaltwinkie8216 could you imagine though, I don’t think destiny would ever be able to top that

[@Creationeer]

Interesting note: Savathun said "Do you know the last time I spoke with my brother?" there are actually 2 possible lines, the one Byf had which was "It was just before you killed him" but for me it was "It was just before his last battle" I didn't complete the Kings Fall Raid in D1, perhaps that is factored in?

[@Masoninsicily]

I believe there are some instances of "veteran dialog" if you played D1

[@slothfacts9390]

I think that’s veteran dialogue

[@raven-0621]

@@slothfacts9390 even if you're veteran, some dialogues change if you did King's fall, Rise of Iron, Zero Hour, etc.

[@slothfacts9390]

@@raven-0621 that’s, what veteran dialogue is?

[@Creationeer]

@@slothfacts9390 I think Dionide means specifics, I played the hell out of D1 but never did the Kings Fall raid as I couldn't play as much for a time, it's the only raid I didn't do. We know Bungie can track a whole lot of events and stats so maybe Savathun is reading our data :|

[@Forcer69]

Heads up. Alternate characters get different dialogue. Did it on all 3 last week, and 1 this week, all 4 were different.

[@RoseHasThornes]

This weeks is a different Altar: Saghira's shell.

[@Aj-py8en]

I've subscribed to Destiny Lore Vault so I don't miss any of these riddles

[@parkerkendrick9876]

For the Altars can you only do one per day? I’m onto the third and it’s the lost sector but it won’t pop up

[@nathaniel7165]

I just did this mission yesterday and I was so ready for Byf’s analysis. Glad he already got it out!

[@ohthatpie]

I'm on the same boat lol

[@nds8557]

wtf I thought I commented, nice pfp

[@nathaniel7165]

@@nds8557 you too

[@nathanielchavez281]

We have the same name

[@MelancholicBodhisattva]

Witchqueen puts the Glykon and the lore we get from it into better perspective... especially, in my opinion, this line; "Delight in me. *I emulated all of me in your image; stretched my mind to live through so many… I reaped the pleasures and experiences of every vessel. But despite my sundry perspectives, I still only see through my own eyes-and I want more."* I peer into the Dark nothing. *"You are… oblivion. Not a destruction, but a melding of all that has come to pass. I wish to become as you are. To gorge on existence. To collect your promise to elevate me."* My laughter is wild. All of my forms transfix on the swirling anomaly. "LOOK UPON ME!" A lot of this mirrors Mara, like being in control of a mind web spread across multiple bodies, an appetite for power, exposed to Darkness and surviving, etc. She was offered the role of becoming a Disciple from the Witness. Honestly, maybe Calus really could be the Disciple we face off with in the raid perhaps.

[@Bluelyre]

Might be. Could also be one of the worms as well.

[@kulehulfer4385]

Dude I didn't even think about that

[@gabrielpineirogarcia2078]

Calus as a raid Boss seems both fitting and not fitting. Fitting because Calus has apparently come back, and is the link between the psion defectors and the Black Fleet. Not fitting because the raid is this week and Calus appearing in the picture was revealed just Last week. It wouldnt make sense to kill him off so soon

[@DetectiveWarden]

I doubt that Calus is the Disciple, as said by Mara, the Disciple is an ancient creature, Calus is old, sure, but he hasn’t been in direct contact with The Witness long enough that it could be him.

[@nathaniel7165]

@@DetectiveWarden I mean didn’t Mara say in the Parasite exotic quest that she saw herself working under/ as a disciple to the witness? Now here me out; she’s already corrupted and we’ll have to defeat her for the final encounter. I am aware this is some crazy bs theory crafting but we really don’t know what the raid will include so anything can happen.

[@omulei1797]

Heard in a myelin stream that "The Taken King will return" might also be a deeper reference to the darkness itself, being that it originally gave Oryx taken powers. An interesting thought, although Oryx gave himself that name if I recall.

[@notnik0]

Just mentioned this myself

[@WildWolfGod]

Exactly what I was thinking.

[@vectorfox4782]

Oryx was killed on his throne, which is coincidentally the true method to grant a Krill/Hive God their permanent death. But Savathûn did not say the name of Oryx, she said that the Taken King will return, leading us to believe that it may be someone else or the younger Aurash (Oryx) created within the Simulation by Quria, the Taken Vex Mind. What do you guys think?

[@BrosWithHeads]

Titan, Io, and Mars in Savs care sounds like a lie which means that the Witness did return Mars. This leads us to either the Taken King coming back or us having the power to move worlds like how the Witness has been doing with our lost planets. Keep in mind Savathûn speaks in half truths so her saying the Taken King will rise again doesn’t necessarily mean Oryx himself but another being having the power to take (most likely Xivu)

[@stevenarmstrong4371]

Yeah but the long boi in the soup from titan is also in Sav’s throne world so she could very well have titan, io and mercury in her care

[@thebestpilot7]

@@stevenarmstrong4371 where is the giant friend?

[@MangoKai]

@@thebestpilot7 it showed up in one of the cutscenes that panned the throne world. I've never looked to see if it's visible from patrol.

[@dogsoldier123]

@@MangoKai which cutscene was that?

[@georgelee5786]

I think the ability to move worlds is more likely than the resurrection of Oryx. I believe this because eventually someone will need to bring back Titan, Io, and Mars.

[@hideo7366]

I will say that the statement "The Taken King will rise again" doesn't necessarily mean ORYX will rise again. The "Taken King" was a title granted to Oryx once he took the power to Take from the Worm Gods. Technically if another powerful hive were to commune with the Deep and gain its power or read the Tablets of Ruin that granted Oryx the power to take, another Hive with the mantle of "Taken King" could exist. This is just a theory that popped into my head after thinking about how Oryx got his powers.

[@TheKameleonMati]

It might be hive or it might be certain cabal emperor obsessed with darkness that recently communed with it

[@wayfa13]

@@TheKameleonMati hmmm my mate reckons that it's that certain cabal emperor obsessed with darkness that we'll be seeing in a raid or the like soon

[@twisttie85]

I had to scroll way to far to find this. It's analogous to the "Satan" story which described a position or title. It just happened to be held by the fallen angel Lucifer.

[@junipermcclary1645]

@@TheKameleonMati it may also be Xivu-arath, since she's currently leading the taken

[@psythen4562]

You wouldn’t say the king of England will rise again without meaning a previous king

[@BatteredWalrus]

interestingly in regards to Mars's timeline stuff, the Hidden agent has a line about the wheat fields could actually be from the future not the past

[@The_Real_OQ]

If Oryx does return, then that might tie in to Kings Fall coming back as the next legacy raid

[@justin-iq2od]

I hope so, probably the best raid ever made

[@mrxerxes7947]

maybe in a future season we realize we need savathun. Then to revive oryx, she uses a large scale deepsight to manifest his last battle from his corpse or a part of the dreadnought. We go in and kill him so he can be revived as a guardian

[@zackmf1610]

What if Oryx cames back with a ghost? If Sufathun became a guardian why not him and the other sister.

[@fluff6811]

@@mrxerxes7947 That would be…. absolutely crazy. I wouldn’t put it past them by any means tbh.

[@NitroNinja324]

@@mrxerxes7947 Read that back and understand how ridiculous it is.

[@GrayvesX]

Byf! I'm surprised I haven't seen more people in the comments saying that you missed more dialogue of Savathun. There's more dialogue saying that The Witness took the planets but she learnt the ability throm the tablets of ruin and returned Mars as a test of her power, and as a gift to us. I think there's 3 other versions of this as well, one stating that the 9 took the planets and returned Mars.

[@Creationeer]

This is pretty cool, perhaps she has different dialogue for each truth and lie, no single person can get the whole picture and get their own interpretation. Even in death she's still messing with us!

[@Mechanomly]

That would explain why at 13:53 it said "Interaction #4", and afterwards only #5 and #6. We're certainly missing two here, at the least.

[@IronChief13]

Yeah I got the version with Mars ! I thought I missed a mission or something but no, dialogues are just different

[@jadetortellini6150]

Lucent Oryx maybe? 👀 I mean, he did have us transform him into a weapon which I always hypothesized was his way of escaping his fate as a servant to the worms. Especially with our knowledge now that the witness lied to the hive, imagine we bring Savathun back and she sends us on an exotic quest where we regain the ToM and in the process she ends up bringing back Oryx(with a ghost. perchance) and explaining to him how they were deceived. One can dream at least

[@apachers2807]

from killing gods to teaming up with gods. Oryx is one of my favorite villains in destiny just from his design and lore alone I'd love to see him return in D2.

[@andersonneil2293]

What weapon is oryx I can't remember, is he one of the d1 versions of whisper? Or was he touch of malace?

[@AraAraRaiden]

@@andersonneil2293 touch of malice

[@th9986]

People are really still pretending Savathun will ever be an ally.

[@WrathNebula321]

@@th9986 I mean, its a possibility. After all that she been through from being tricked by the Witness, to saving the Traveler from the Witness, and to eventually becoming a lightbearer like us and trying to protect the Traveler in her Throne World, but we stopped her from doing that final part. We just have to wait and see if she will truly become an ally or still become our enemy.

[@salvatoredanunciacao7770]

I mean, Oryx once brought back his sisters by way of what they're God's of so its not unreasonable to assume that Savathun and Xivu doing all this was to bring back the most powerful hive god.

[@MagusKali]

But they weren't killed in their throne worlds were they?

[@SirEggo2412]

@@MagusKali they were

[@salvatoredanunciacao7770]

@@MagusKali not theirs but they were killed in one, actually Oryx's before it was the dreadnought. However, they died to make Oryx stronger and which is why the other 2 mostly fell in line given his strength. Regardless, them wanting to ultimately bring back their brother makes sense, he can both make and control the Taken, has killed a worm God which "The Entity" may be seeking the hive to do, and has shown a greater understanding for the rituals of the Darkness. So he's pretty broken lore and gameplay wise and it only makes sense that the sisters have conquered and tried to out maneuver each other in hopes to bring back the Hive God of Conquest.

[@sirp7394]

@@salvatoredanunciacao7770 I thought he was the god of navigation or something

[@salvatoredanunciacao7770]

@@sirp7394 well shit, I only know Xivu is the God of war and Savathun is the God of deception. Tbh tho, Oryx is so legendary he doesn't need a title like "God of", "The Taken King" is good enough.

[@camdenpierson459]

When she says "move worlds" I'm almost 100% sure she's saying that we'll get access to darkness abilities that involve gravity. Gravity moves worlds, so it would make sense she's paraphrasing what we will get next from the darkness.

[@raven-0621]

I think it's based on what she has read in the tablets of ruin, basically Taking 2.0, Deepsight is the first part of it, but instead of bringing things from the past, you would be able to move even planets to another reality and back, like the Witness does and like Savathûn did with Mars and the rest. and we learned Deepsight, now we must take the next step

[@goofyfurball7311]

Absolutely of the opinion that this is hinting to gravity being a new darkness subclass

[@johngancarcik5682]

Well it's what was used on titan to stretch its methane sea then drop causing the waves to trash the archology and other stuff

[@InterstellarBountyHunter521]

You mentioned the potential new darkness subclass specializing in time and gravity distortion. You know what other element focuses on time and gravity manipulation according to lore: void. This could be the counterpart to void just as stasis is the counterpart to solar.

[@c.w.crawley6668]

Which begs the unsettling question of what could be the counterpart to Arc? An energy representing constant change, the energy of life, and raw power.

[@TheKillerAxe]

@@c.w.crawley6668 Glass subclass lol (glass is a non-conductor)

[@HavingCrumpets]

@@TheKillerAxe perhaps we get that subclass from a whole *vault* of it..

[@c.w.crawley6668]

@@TheKillerAxe ...I love it. And honestly, I wouldn't put it past Bungie.

[@Dingosilver57]

@@c.w.crawley6668 Hive magic, the same sort of thing the thorn is made of. An energy representing the stagnation into a single part, an energy of death, and the draining of power.

[@-Gilver]

Gravity Distortion of Time and Gravity Byf do you remember how the darkness' presence was described on Luna and from the Black armory during the collapse? The smell of wet earth and the sound of metal being crushed What if your right about deepsight being the basis to a new darkness subclass that one of those effects was a darkness ability? We've seen the lore tab on how Cayde described being placed under Stasis and now we have the two other effects that have yet to be identified

[@patsonical]

"The power to move worlds will soon be yours." 1. We know (as players) that we will get more Darkness subclasses/elements 2. The "Dark Vanguard" is established as Elsie, Eris, and the Drifter 3. Each of these characters is themed around an element already: Elsie - Stasis, Eris - Corruption/Hive Magic, Drifter - Taken 4. These are likely the three Darkness elements we will get 5. The lore for Osmiomancy Gloves touches on the extents of Taken power, and it states "What if you used that energy for larger shifts in reality? You could teleport an army into a Hive mothership… move a fleet outside time and space… perhaps even alter a moon's orbit, devastating the planet below." 6. Teleportation, shifting reality, moving outside of time and space (much like the worlds we lost when the Darkness invaded?), altering a moon's orbit. Those certainly sound like a "power to move worlds" 7. Power to Move Worlds = Taken power = one of the subclasses we will likely get 8. Q.E.D. This statement is TRUE

[@NitroNinja324]

Convincing argument. Don't think it'll be called Corruption though. Stasis and Solar tell me that the Darkness elements will be opposites of each other. Solar is the presence of energy, Stasis is the absence. Arc is the start of a reaction, it's opposite should be...well, the Decay.

[@patsonical]

@@NitroNinja324 Yeah, perhaps, I'm just going by the name that appears in the Crucible when one is killed by the Necrotic Grips poison. I thought that would be the best indication as to what the element would be.

[@NitroNinja324]

@@patsonical We can only speculate for now.

[@vV_Viggo]

“I may be dead. But I guarantee you ain’t heard the last of me.” -Cayde-6 //There is no sorrow in {life reduced to memory} :: There is only sorrow in the {forgotten}

[@MysticCasey]

I shall state it again (said this in another Witch Queen video), Savathun tested everything out before doing it for herself on Crow.

[@c4sualcycl0ps48]

While she might have known what she was doing, I still think there’s something to be said about how she essentially had to trust the traveler to bring her back, and her clueless self into figuring out how to put the lure in play to get us to “remember everything for her” While it was calculated I have no doubt in saying it was a calculated risk.

[@MysticCasey]

@@c4sualcycl0ps48 Definitely shows she thinks steps beyond most but that it all lies on taking the risk.

[@ThorpenAlnyr]

Given the recent dungeon, I must ask a question. A phrase like "shall rise again" Is the truth value within the outcome or is the truth value within the act of shall, "an obligation to do a thing"? Philosophically I would rather say the latter, but maybe it is most likely the former.

[@ShinMalphur]

I believe when she states "the Taken King will rise again", she isn't referring to Oryx. She would have said his name. I believe she indicates the return of the Witness, the true king of the Taken. I also believe that we will obtain the power to move worlds. If Savathun was the one who returned Mars, we will be the ones to save our friends who perished to darkness when they disappeared. Edit: Props to you Byf for being so active with the uploads, god bless

[@dougthegorgon2341]

This is a stretch and probably not happening, but for the sake of considering all options, Riven referred to herself as king of the taken in the period between Oryx’s death and Savathûn’s takeover

[@pugwash1]

Come ing back to this due to the line ‘the last city isn’t the last city’ and lightfall kinda makes these lines to be re looked once more

[@marztian1013]

Hey Byf, you’re darkness subclass idea is actually something that was a part of the original Destiny 1 game with the og storyline. I was told by someone that playtested that story’s alpha that there was 5 subclasses: Light, Solar, Arc, Void and Darkness. And specifically the darkness subclass was described to me as the way you mentioned in your video. One of the other items was that the Crota’s End & King’s Fall raids were supposed to be one large raid pushed together. Now it’s been about 5 1/2 - 6 years since I was told this among other things regarding the original story so it may be slightly off but still, the overall theme of what I’ve talked about/been told is slowly and finally coming to light as we near the end of the dark and light saga and I couldn’t be more excited. Anyways, much love and thank you for the content ✌️

[@obi-wankenobi5075]

Can u tell anything more about the original story?

[@topherthegopher3115]

I think these need to be revisited, especially with all the seasonal content and lightfall telling us some truths

[@user-li3iv8cy6u]

Hey Byf, someone mentioned that "The Taken King will rise again" may not necessarily mean Oryx returning but someone weilding the power like the original weilder from the deep.

[@FillsFantasyFactory1]

Yes. Finally someone who sees it as me. This Taken King not being Oryx. I can see that This Taken King will be that ancient power lurking in the pyramid

[@thesecretsage6642]

Yea, Myelin games Said "The Taken King will rise again" doesn't necessarily means Oryx will return but instead the original leader or the entity who controls the taken since Mara Sov says, Oryx only *borrowed* the taken

[@th9986]

I disagree. By saying “The” Taken King it is heavily implied they are talking about Oryx who is “The” Taken King.

[@thesecretsage6642]

@@th9986 But still, people often forgot that Oryx is in Touch of Malice... He can't be resurected, either Savathun is teasing Kingsfalls or Oryx's heart/essence broke out of the Touch of Malice since in the Red War our D1 vault was destroyed so That's a possibility... Either way, gonna have to wait for more information. But Still, it's very nice to come up with theories Like this since it may or may not be true Edit: just remembered myelingames actually Said something along the lines of "The entity that controls the taken might be a disciple of the darkness/ the witness way back During last season..

[@psythen4562]

You wouldn’t say the king of England will rise again without meaning the previous king

[@pirategaming5679]

13:48 I got an ad right here and I thought for a second savathun was trying to sell me car insurance

[@nidhoog]

I would speculate that savathun letting us use and explore deepsight is what going to trigger oryx coming back along with the moving of worlds. It actually kind of makes sense due to the couse of things

[@LandB2015]

No the darkness is .

[@jackolantern147]

Makes sense. Oryx was able to bring them back after 100+ years fighting the Ecumene. We are curious about the history of the Hive and his essence still lives. Residing in the Touch of malice. "I am inquiry. And you have conjured me back with inquiry. "

[@erikm8373]

As far as I can tell, I'm the only one who thought of this idea, but I'll keep bringing it up until I'm proven wrong: Every statement Savathun says is a half-truth, something that will be shown to be sort-of-but-not-quite true over the coming year(s), and four half-truths adds up to two truths, two lies. This is the exact kind of wordplay shenanigans I would expect out of a god of deception

[@CameronRafferty]

There is another set of two lies and two truths! This weeks selection is: - Osiris is dead - Savathun is dead - The witness birthed the darkness - Our Destiny lies beyond our system Discuss!!

[@orangesbeyond9824]

The Savathun one is true, and the destiny one is true

[@slothfacts9390]

We know Osiris is alive, and I’m pretty sure the witness didn’t birth the darkness, it simply uses it. I assume Savathun really is dead therefore I think the last one is true

[@slothfacts9390]

@Ghost Phoenix I’ve never seen this dialogue but I think 1 and 2 are true and 3/4 are false. I think that the final shape is *literally* nothing, and it would make sense for Savathun to give us a key to defeat the witness, she clearly opposes him

[@seandelprado6169]

I got this one

[@Jester4460]

@Ghost Phoenix last city one sounds interesting but sounds like a lie

[@syksis9842]

Did this earlier today and was like “man I really hope Byf will cover this” and here it is. Can’t wait to watch!

[@turiel86]

what if we'll have the power to move worlds back from the DCV? :P Also, as we saw, Mars came back with "frozen time zones" in it, which basically make retreading old content possible and canon ;d Also also - Savathun also makes up other stories about how Mars came back.

[@olafvoniginde5098]

It's interesting that the four statements of two truths two lies are different in German. The german ones are: 1. The pyramid-blade will be a key to defeat the witness. 2. The witness searches the final shape and the final shape ... is nothing. 3. The last city is not the last city. 4. The witness will have an army on mars.

[@robert-andreiionita2827]

Question(s) for the LoreDaddy™: Savathun lost her memories when she got blessed by the Light. That’s not up for debate. What I want to ask is, if she forgot everything, as we understand that happens when a Guardian is resurrected, how did she know how to find her ship? How did she know she had a Throne World as a Hive God before? How did she know about us, to even lure us on the ship and get the Relic (Glaive component)? Even deeper on this note, how did she remember she made a contingency plan TO REMEMBER by using us as the vehicle by which we viewed stuff in the Altars of Reflection? How did she know about the planets that dissapeared before in our system, no matter if she or the Witness made them dissapear? How did she know about Osiris or the ploy she made with him before? How did she remember about Oryx (and Xivu maybe, that’s not clear yet) and what “he told [her] just before he died”? Are those explainable or do we categorize this as a plot hole in the story so far? It’s fiction, of course. But do we say it’s an oversight from the writers? Or are we to believe that in her case, she forgot most things, but some stuff were still in her mind when she got revived?

[@damnlara3561]

I think it was mentioned in the Lore that her Ghost (who was basically feeling pity for the hive and therefore was like a Savathun fanboy) and her right hand (the witch who we kill in one mission) actually told her about who she is. She then just used us to remember all of this herself. I'm not completly sure where exactly it was mentioned tho. :c

[@robert-andreiionita2827]

@@damnlara3561 Thanks a lot! I was considering that someone might have told her about herself. But I wouldn't have thought Immaru would know about her necessarly.

[@audreyoberlin9077]

Love how I’m watching this after ghosts of the deep 👀

[@thomaschitham3487]

I think people are mistaking her words. *"The Taken King* will rise again". She's not saying *Oryx* will rise again. She might be saying the position of the Taken King will return, whether that be through Oryx, Xivu Arath, some other Hive or enemy, or even Us.

[@th9986]

I think you’re wrong. Oryx is “The” Taken King. By saying “The” it was heavily implied that Oryx is gonna return.

[@thunderspear2251]

I would honestly love for this to just be a meta response from Savathun, promising that the Taken King raid is coming back. That being said, I also had that theory, and I'm curious if Savathun is warning us of Xivu's next move. Xivu has seemed quite devoted to Oryx in the past. However, Savathun did learn Nokris' necromancy, which means she theoretically could have the means to bring him back. Oryx's death in his throne world was a "first" for the Hive, so it might not be as concrete as we were led to believe.

[@brennanshaw99]

I think the powers of taking will be ours and the taken king will rise again are the truths, but what’s interesting is that she doesn’t say oryx, whenever she takes about her brother she at least mention his name or that fact that he’s her brother, but here she didn’t, so I think this a misdirection, I think she’s talking about the true taken king, the taken’s original master, the witness, rising again as a reference to the witnesses failure in the collapse saying he’ll come back to cause the collapse again, as for the taken powers, we do need two more darkness subclasses to rival our light ones, and I don’t think siva will be one of them because they’re not paracausal, so we could get hive magic and then taken, not to mention there are some similarities to taking and deep sight, to take a memory out of the past, which would help explain the darknesses connection to the time distortions more clearly.

[@vollied4865]

I'm surprised byf missed this; The taken king will rise again, not oryx will rise again. Remember the taken king and witch queen are titles. Eris was the witch queen in the dark timeline further proof the title can be moved or gained by another. We very well could see a NEW taken king.

[@sambojorquez8436]

Even more interesting is the fact that last season Mara made a distinction between Oryx and “the taken’s original master” implying to be the one commanding the taken and Xivu Arath now, the Witness. Remember Oryx learned the power to take when he communed with the Witness, and seeing as Savathun herself said the Witness is coming to finish what he started during the collapse, you could easily make the case that the Taken King rising again is referring to the Witness.

[@bradleygarnet3500]

Probably callus if you remember the ending to the dead messenger mission. There's a reason why defectors of the cabal didn't just ditch empress caitls. They went back to calus

[@psythen4562]

Dude you wouldn’t say the king of England will rise again without meaning a previous king, your explanation makes no sense

[@johannvongenerico9487]

I love how many variants of the "two truths, two lies" there are. So much material to understand

[@leviacosta1134]

Here's a theory I have: "The power to move worlds" I do think is something we'll get our hands. I think this power will be an in game justification for later game preservation. In other words, when Destiny 2 is completed, players will be able to re-install and/or uninstall previous expansions to once again play them. And what better way to explain it, than using deep sight and the power to move worlds, to literally pull in other worlds from a different time to relive those experiences. hmmm? (wishful thinking perhaps, but I like it)

[@tobiasneethling8871]

got distracted by byf almost blowing himself to pieces at the 12 min mark

[@theowarmindswrath]

I have seen something recently, and I believe we are to expect a SIVA/Ikelos season very soon... We have had no hint to any of these theme after Season of the Arrival, until this season with Grand Overture. And I would say that the Eliksni would have some stuff to do with it because they are quite interwined into it, mainly SIVA.

[@GrayvesX]

Yeah, I think they would need to do another season with the Eliksni and they need to bring back Rasputin, as well as the fact that people want a siva season so badly and they've had about a year of people asking for it to make it now. Would be awesome to see Mithrax helping Ana get Rasputin into an Exo. Maybe another season with vex as the enemies who want to take SIVA for themselves.

[@bakairy]

As much as I like Siva, I don’t think it’s coming back

[@DetectiveWarden]

@@GrayvesX Why would the Vex want to take SIVA? The Vex have technology that’s multitudes more powerful than anything that SIVA could do.

[@Kensen_Ackles]

The Alter and discussion of the past reminds me of something Ghost said regarding how the Light takes away memories, while the Darkness gives them. The Light takes and asks you to give more, while the Darkness gives and asks you to take more. But the more you sacrifice through the Light, the more you gain as well, while as we saw with the Darkness, the more you take, the more you lose, as we saw with the siblings realizing the betrayal of the Worm Gods. This also ties in with losing more as you are changed into your final, perfect shape.

[@onikakarot]

if she could recover oryx a ghost would likely be able to bring them back , and with his memory wiped clean savathun could either restore his memory or shape them into some one else

[@Dark99ms]

Oryx with a Ghost + getting his memory back would be scary, to say the least

[@itsmehere1]

I feel that "the taken king will rise again" is definitely hinting at the raid comming back since they even added Saturn to the destinations tab under nessus.

[@mistermomon9020]

I did a new one today and my two lies and two truths are Osiris is dead, savathun is dead, the witness birthed the darkness, and our destiny lies beyond our solar system

[@Chaotic_H3LL]

The witness birthed the Darkness - Truth. We know this already. Our destiny lies beyond our solar system - Truth/Lie. I lean more on Lie. We know the Witness is coming to us. We will likely be in conflict with them. So our destiny being outside the solar system when the Witness will be in our solar system seems unlikely. Unless of course. We were to intercept them BEFORE they got to us. Osiris is dead - Osiris is currently comatosed or something like that iirc, not dead, at least not yet. So thats a lie. Savathun is dead - Savathun being dead is True, she is dead, She ain't alive. The key thing is, RIGHT NOW. Her Ghost is still out there and can revive her at pretty much anytime. Doesn't change that for now, she is actually dead so her being dead is true, albiet on a technicality.

[@nathaniel7165]

@@Chaotic_H3LLI’m probably forgetting some stuff but I didn’t think the winnower and the witness were the same entity, which has me confused cause I thought the winnower created the darkness since Savathun said the Witness wears darkness as a cloak.

[@ivegonefishing482]

It could just as well be speaking of Nokris. His bargain with Savathun was not a one sided exchange she was to give him insight into "the dreaming mind" which is Quoria, blade transformed. This taken mind was Savathun's tool in creating more taken. So perhaps it is not Oryx who will rise again but his last heir to his dynasty.

[@BROteiinshake]

Ok, Hear me out! What if.... "The Taken King, will rise again!" quote means that since Oryx is dead, It means that "The Witness" Gets the power to "Take" back and takes Oryx and we fight a taken oryx? Just a thought.

[@Gee-bg2rv]

Oryx was already a taken in kings fall my guy

[@BROteiinshake]

@@Gee-bg2rv ahh I think I forgot about that. He took himself ? I was thinking that he would be all taken effects and no will of his own

[@mythicaltwinkie8216]

"I doubt they alter of sorrows will work on a 7 year old crystalized Orxy floating in space, and I doubt they can res him without his worm" Hive Ghost: am I a joke to you?

[@nova2293]

0:26 You don’t have the gally catalyst!!? Lemme help you byf!

[@NeroLucifarious]

*looks around before using deepsight on ace of spades* Cayde: "Hey Guardian!" *cries quietly*

[@alduinthuri1055]

I also hear people talk of taken king is all she says, possibly meaning the title will be claimed by someone

[@Tir33nts343]

there were so many subtle hints that savathun was playing us, especially in the altar, her form was watching the whole time, everywhere we went she watched

[@ApacheBigFoot21]

Man this one was an amazing video!! Definitely hats of to you BYF :D

[@rvelazquez1986]

Take everything with a pinch of salt. - reaches for a bucket

[@kjax139]

I would think Oryx is still alive because bungie said they aren’t just going to bring back old raids without tying them into the seasons lore. So it’d make sense that if they bring back Kings Fall raid, Oryx would have to “come back to life”

[@titan_uprising]

so fun fact on the two truths one lie portion, they seemingly replaced this voice line at some point likely when the taken king was announced, and now instead of the taken king shall rise again, it says the last city is not the last city. i believe it also said something about the witness setting up base on mars instead of him returning it to our solar system. I could be wrong about the second one, but i will double check

[@Franchise1107]

One thought someone put out there that I think is relevant. Savathun didn’t say “Oryx will return/rise again” she said the taken king. Remember from last season that Oryx didn’t create the taken but their original master was the Witness. My bet is that the original Taken King will “rise” again when the Witness returns and not Oryx himself.

[@mxx720]

I love how this expansion explains why Savathun (as Osiris) restored Uldren's memories to Crow last season: She wanted to see if it would work on her. Crow was a dress rehearsal.

[@refuzal4221]

“It turns out that the darkness was SIVA all along” *Enter Taniks, riding a worm god*

[@robert2german]

A detail I have noticed in these Reflections is that the image of Savathun is absent her crown. The only other time we have seen her without the crown is in her scene when she dies the first time, before Immaru finds her. This suggests to me that Savathun recorded her memories prior to her death, likely before she revealed herself to us in Season of the Lost. Therefore, the reason the Reflections give contradictory statements is because, at the time she was imprinting her memories, she is still beholden by her worm to lie. Just my take on things.

[@PandoShiro]

One of the investigation board missions mentions that Eris having a theory that Deepsight is in a way a looking glass thru a certain time and place, like the temporal tears all over mars. Eris also mentioned that Ikora has implement a similar practice with battle-meditation, I guess that's simulation of old strikes and such...

[@deltadestroyerw4502]

I think it’s highly possible, even likely, to get another darkness subclass based around “the power to move worlds”. I’ve seen fan made concepts of a “gravity subclass”, and it fits with the darkness’s theme of inverting the light abilities (solar to stasis, arc which is the energy in atomic bonds and the theorized “decay subclass” which breaks down bonds). It also relates to times we’ve seen the darkness exert gravitational forces, like during the collapse with the awoken, as well as the disaster at Titan, or even with the God Wave on Fundament, although it’s hard to tell if that was completely made up, or if the darkness was actually planning on unleashing a God Wave and blaming it on the traveler.

[@2ddude96]

i might be mistaken by i assumed that when the traveler originally chose savathun (before the darkness manipulated them) as a guardian it, it did so for ALL hive. So there is that chance that oryx comes back with a hive ghost

[@TheGreyShaman]

The two truths two lies is so amazing, I had no idea they were giving us all different lines, I have experience 4 different two truths two lies in the 4 we’ve been able to experience while my clan mates are experiencing stuff about Osiris or the light in general and how savathun had always technically been a follower of humanity

[@dascreeb5205]

The second one puzzled me even more... Can't wait for a video on it!

[@lolgisticalofficer233]

8:55 now THAT was a satisfying explosion.

[@S4R1N]

Hrm, yeah I think you could be right about Oryx, would make sense that it would be somewhat related to Savathun's memory. I think it would be pretty neat to see the raid narrated by Savathun, letting us dive into our own memories with Savathun's guidance to find ancient secrets relating to the darkness.

[@paulvenkman]

That Scorn boss at the beginning was thinking about his shopping.

[@scarfking1579]

"Osiris is dead. Savathun is dead. The witness birthed the darkness. Your destiny lies beyond the solar system." From this week

[@irunthepeg]

I'm going truth, lie, lie, truth.

[@scarfking1579]

@@irunthepeg Here's mine: Lie- Mara's techeuns confirmed Osiris' identity Truth- Savathun is currently dead, but can be revived Truth- By default Lie- No way bungie is making a non-solar system destination. Besides, the Witness is coming to Sol anyways

[@irunthepeg]

@@scarfking1579 I love that they're making us speculate on things even more. I don't even care which are right and wrong it's just fun to predict and theorize hahaha.

[@fallingupwards7974]

it was kind of cool that in the Altar of Reflection theres the giant Savathun head which vanishes when she fully reveals herself at the end of Chapter 2

[@vugolol]

The Altar of Reflection this week was just as interesting. Hope you cover all remaining ones!

[@johannvongenerico9487]

Given that Mara spoke about the Taken's "original master" last season, perhaps that is the 'taken king' that Savathun referred to

[@EchoesOfWinter]

"Power to move worlds" would also be a great, uhhh, way to do vaulting and unvaulting content with ease.

[@TheRealDJCrazee]

Yo Byf, any chance at revisiting this soon with all the new info we have? Would be cool to see your current thoughts on this before TFS comes around. Maybe some predictions?

[@stuuurbo]

Me tonight: “Take a shot every time Byf says ‘Go ahead and’”

[@PlutoDarknight]

'The Taken King' could be Oryx making a return, it could be a hint towards a quest that has us recover the Touch of Malice for use once more like how it has been in D1 after King's Fall, it could be Xivu Arath claiming the empty throne of the Dreadnought, it could be Calus taking the role, it could be US taking the mantle for ourselves, etc.

[@aaravpuri119]

The fact that this came out on the same day there was another two truths two lues

[@rokstar2001]

I actually did this mission separately with two diffrent friends and got new audio both times. So everytime you visit you'll get new intel.

[@noremac891]

One line I got from her was something on the lines of "your destiny lies beyond this system" so that might be a plot point into us moving planets if that is true.

[@the13inquisitor59]

20:58 Wasn't there some lore back in Shadowkeep about the hive trying to ressurect Oryx with their will in its 'thousands of millions'?

[@Zai-kyu]

Yesterday there were some new "2 truths and 2 lies" that were very interesting. I can't wait to see your take on those!

[@TheMidWave]

The thing we have to keep in mind as what a lie is, a lie doesnt have to violate the wording of a sentence. A lie can be a violation of the spirit of a sentence.

[@LyonEnigma]

The lore tab of the Osmiomancy gloves detail Ophiucus' investigation into how Taking works and how it could be expanded if that power were wielded by someone smart enough. It lends a lot of credence to your theories.

[@Mortal_Worlds]

I'm so glad you're covering this. I starting speculating with my friend after playing this

[@samcrompton7270]

I only just finished the alter of reflection 10 minutes ago. What great timing.

[@jacobhill1420]

Regarding the power to move worlds; one of the recent exotics (I think shell, ship, or sparrow can't remember), Ikora's ghost speculates that how Oryx took could be applied in other ways, specifically moving fleets across space. Could be applied on a larger scale to planets, explaining both our current lost planets and why we might seek out that power in the future.

[@AshendWield]

I suppose the line about "You will have the power to move worlds" will be true, between deepsight and our prior experience with time travel, it stands to reason we could very well use deepsight to revisit Io, Mercury and Titan in the past and prevent their capture in the future... technically speaking.

[@danielrichardson569]

Savathun was brought back through cunning, xivu through war, and Oryx can come back by Savathun "Navigating Death." Which she started by dying and being granted the light and dying after the light. On her return (potentially), Oryx could come back.

[@Ace-zb9xk]

Another possibility, again I may be wrong on this, is that only the person who can move planets can return the planets they moved, therefore it’s possible, key word possible, that the witness did return mars, and this would also mean that titan, io, and mercury aren’t in savathuns care, as well as making it also possible she would have the ability to return despite maybe not being the one to take them

[@HDIceWatch]

You know when he talked about the Kings Fall raid returning to Destiny 2 and how it could happen, I kept thinking about Deep Sight. What if we end up using Deep Sight in order to learn something about Oryx that we didn't know back then. You can literally have the same raid happen again, but at some point you have a small extra section where you learn something new about Oryx. Like for example the power to take. Or something about the Witness.

[@XxBazicxX]

Just realized, Savathuns big brain play is a lot like what Light did in Death Note to get her memories back

[@panthinox7806]

with the "you will have the power to take worlds" I also had the subclass thought, but I figured it would be a taken subclass since it sounded like those where related.

[@johngancarcik5682]

Makes sense taken are known to phase in and out of reality

[@martiferrer4354]

If I remember correctly, the raid coming back is just a "classic Destiny raid", and after the Vox Obscura quest, my bet is Leviathan since Zavala says the vanguard will find the ship. Amazing video!

[@4ncientGu150]

One of the first things I said after her initial spiel about two lies and two truths was "Is one of the lies how many lies there are?"

[@blueblanketman2249]

Savathun: makes clever plan make us retrieve her memories. Me: wondering why she didn't leave a journal.

[@malice9240]

Savathun couldnt be teasing kings fall return, cause it allready happiend in her world. So it would have to mean a full come back, or someone is trying to resurect him, or its a lie