Destiny 2 Lore - Let's talk about the biggest moment in The Witch Queen's Story & why it matters!

[@gavo7911]

Something I found ironic about it all was that in the end, the queen of lies may have been one of our most genuine foes yet. Her motivations were understandable, and what she was doing could be considered noble in a certain sense. She really was just trying to do right by herself and save her species. Just another pawn in the ever-growing list of The Witness’ victims.

[@foist101]

We in turn probably doomed the traveler in order to save ourselves too. The story is so grey now I love it

[@imixupwords5340]

God I hope we allow her to be revived, we have her body and her ghost is somewhere else so yeah.

[@milagrosgutierrezmartin9506]

Kind of, but she truly killed a LOT of species to get here sooo it's too little too late. And even then she's an absolute prick about everything when she doesn't need to be so that whole "Savathun good" feels very flat to me Not to mention that the leviathan told her not to continue and to choose the "sky" ie. the traveler. If she wasn't so hell bent on being the hero, the traveler would have saved the Krill, but she was obsessed with doing something great. Her Hero complex was used by the witness and ended up screwing over trillions of people across the galaxy as the hive went on their crusade

[@Bladings]

@@imixupwords5340 Seems to me like Bungie are going for an Infinity War type story. In which there's only 1 way to win, and it's to lose first. From what we know of Elsie's timelines, the Traveler has always lost, every single time and it doomed life. So maybe the plan isn't to save the Traveler, but to rather win after that defeat. What if we continue the traveler's work as guardians. Would be a cool story if the Traveler, in it's last breath, decided that his time has finally come and rather lets us finish the job.

[@cbandit7715]

Nah she's evil watch dynasty. That's what she wants us to think

[@HandsWithLegs]

Something else that I haven’t seen many people talking about, this opens the possibility that the godwave, if it did happen, wasn’t caused by the traveler or the moons of fundament, but by the gravity weapons of the darkness. We know the black fleet created a colossal tidal wave on titan; I wouldn’t be shocked if this was the same thing

[@gh0ul2559]

There's even a possibility that the moons orbits were manipulated by the black fleet as well

[@3ndlessL00p]

Possibly why Savathuns Hive were present on Titan back in red war, to research this godwave and where it came from

[@NewWorldOrgone]

@@gh0ul2559 This. In the cutscene we're told that the moons were being manipulated to line up for the syzygy. I just wonder if the Traveler was actually there, like did the worm blind her to it or was it actually further out from the planet, but shown close for the cutscene. I'd like to see that explored more

[@littlesunshine9218]

@@NewWorldOrgone The traveler was there and fled when the hive attacked that one civilization on one of the moons and killed the leviathan

[@Afterthought_]

I thought this was implied via what the witness said to the worm?

[@MelancholicBodhisattva]

This really puts the Leviathan’s remarks in the Books of Sorrow into a new, sorrowful light. And might hold the answers to a lot of our questions...

[@elitegamer9310]

I don't think we could turn Xivu Arath over to our side, even if she did learn and believe that they were lied to. Unlike Savathûn who understands the bigger picture, Xivu is devout in the Sword Logic and the Darkness. She probably wouldn't care.

[@thunderspear2251]

I am in agreement to an extent. Xivu has stated that she will kill to protect her people when she spoke to the Leviathan. I believe that her devotion to the Sword Logic is, at least in part, borne from a desire to keep her people going. She has become war because the Hive need war to survive. And her own sister, the one who told them to ignore the Leviathan's warning and go down into the Deep; to take the worm's bargain and become the Hive, that same sister telling her that they were lied to might be enough to push Xivu away from the Witness. Honestly, I hope Xivu is the most sympathetic of the siblings, not even because of the irony. Her devotion to her people could easily be seen as noble, and I'd love to see that dynamic of "Either your people go extinct, or mine do. And it sure as hell isn't going to be mine,". This could also undermine Xivu's entire worldview or how she views her purpose. She is the Hive God of War, but without this lie, without the worms deceiving them into the bargain, the Hive would not need to constantly bring war to survive. Either that, or she loves that this is now her purpose, the fact that she NEEDS to kill to survive. Ooh, so many fun possibilities.

[@johngancarcik5682]

@@thunderspear2251 so far savathun is the only one who found out about the lie

[@angrykagg421]

There is probably a good reason why Xivu’s temple is in shambles compared to the other two.

[@johngancarcik5682]

@@angrykagg421 true the thing is there might be hope for xivu yet but it would require savathun to convince her as from us it would mean nothing but if it's from family or someone she recognizes or close enough to she might believe it because what lore we have on the krill they weren't a war aggressive species

[@ford427v8]

I don't think Xivu Arath wouldn't care. Her nature as the Hive God of War would not change. However, if Savathun were to tell her sister about the truth of the Witness and the ultimate lie that the Hive were told about, then Xivu's purpose could shift to target the Black Fleet and other Darkness-aligned minions as the new enemies of her war machine instead. Savathun and Xivu were closer to each other than either were to Oryx. She only became the war general she is because she needed that drive of nature to sustain her worm and help her sisters save the Hive species from Taox's betrayal. There would be irony in trusting the Hive God of Cunning, no doubt, but Xivu's mind doesn't work openly like her sisters, so Xivu would more likely be able to listen and trust in Savathun. With an alliance with the Dark thrown in doubt by someone Xivu thought betrayed the Darkness, Xivu's purpose could shift her war efforts against the very thing that set her up and used her like some game piece. And the Hive God of War would be a formidable foe against the Black Fleet indeed.

[@mrpancake8889]

Man that cutscene with the worms on fundament made me so giddy. When he said “god wave” I nerded out and then I just spiraled out of control as he started quoting the books of sorrow WORD FOR WORD. Not to mention we got a huge reveal in that cutscene.

[@fishnutz5196]

If you equip Parasite the worm occassionally gives you dialogue while playing. One dialogue the worm talks about Xol and how we must replace him, he was thought to be an all powerful disciple of the Witness. Such a dope little feature, also the worm will sometimes just chat to your ghost. Mara even mentions it in the lore tab saying keep it close and listen carefully.

[@PlebNC]

Worm: "... Do they dance this much usually?" Ghost: "Oh you have no idea..."

[@fishnutz5196]

I was doing a public event and these maf**kers were just having a nice little chat haha

[@whiteevropean]

all powerful disciple, not even the strongest of the worm gods

[@fishnutz5196]

@@whiteevropean i dont know if its stated, but Xol was the weakest correct?

[@CoryConti1]

How?

[@gabrielpineirogarcia2078]

Something I love too is that fragments of the cutscene that changes everything, were used in the trailer of the WQ. We have seen parts if that cutscene before, but the true importance was completely hidden from us until we played It. Its like the plot twist for a Game ending is hidden in the trailer itself, but absolutely no one discovered What It was at the time, we all overlooked It. And thats amazing

[@CHarrisonNails]

Between seeing that Savathun was rezzed, and that the Hive were duped into becoming a genocide engine, I'm totally stoked for what comes next.

[@KabbalahSherry]

Shock of the decade bro. 😳😅 Just crazy.

[@bramd4423]

Bro the story beats in this DLC were actually nuts. Like Beyond Light was basically just "Ooh, Darkness Powers go brrrr" for the most part, but the twists here basically change how we look at Destiny as a whole

[@edgieststalker8141]

@@bramd4423 the fact that the Traveler gave the Hive and Savathun the light, even after all the events and the constant Hunt against it, it still did have pity for the hive because of their stolen destiny as a race of the light, it really goes to show that the light can forgive even the most cruel monsters

[@brandonouellette1536]

@@edgieststalker8141 personally I thought that the Traveler also wanted salvation by Savathun because she was trying to keep it safe I think maybe it wanted to give her a try but when the guardians killed her it went back to the city because it believed the guardians were still the better option

[@edgieststalker8141]

@@brandonouellette1536 yeah it fits

[@ElToland]

I think that, in a near future, Savathûn will become an ally. I remember certain dialogue between Mithrax and Osiris when finishing an override mission, where Mithrax says that all of us should join forces to fight the true enemy, Guardians, Eliksni, Cabal and even the Hive, like fingers of a hand, together forming a fist againts the darkness, Osiristhûn then asks him surprised if he would join forces with Savathûn, instead of mocking or doubting him. Now that we know Osiris was indeed Savathûn at that time, that dialogue could mean something, since we already are allies with both Mithrax and Caiatl, I'd like to see a future mission where we fight the forces of darkness in a battlefield along Cabal, Eliksni and Hive forces, that would be truly awesome!

[@c.w.crawley6668]

It makes me wonder, is the ultimate destiny(Hah) of the Hive to eventually return to the Krill? or become something new entirely. And will that have something to do with Taox, since we know she's still out there somewhere.?

[@johngancarcik5682]

@@c.w.crawley6668 the way the krill were before they became the hive they seemed like an interesting species imagine the stuff humanity could learn the eliksni are already integrated pretty well some make weapons for Iron banner, help Amanda in the hanger, create various goods or art in the market

[@c.w.crawley6668]

@@johngancarcik5682 Exactly, can you imagine the Hive-like guns we might get access to? I for one want a Heavy weapon based on a Shrieker so I can finally make them know how it feels,

[@SymbioteMullet]

Thr poor Vex get left out in the cold again. But then, they were the previous winners of the Flower Game... Perhaps you can't be the Final Shape twice.

[@loreseeker6604]

Yes indeed, there is a lore page in the Martian misses lorebook where Toland basically says just that; that we need to look at savathun with different eyes. We need to see that she is also opposed to the witness simply because she wants to survive and the witness is the end of all life, and thus at a basic level we are all his enemies.

[@bojrichel4474]

Wait a minute: During the Season of the Drifter, didn't the Emissary of the Nine(Not Xur) mention that someone could stop playing the game? We all thought that bit was meta-commentary about the player, but we don't know who she was referring to. After learning about the Gardener and the Winnower, this seems much more relevant now.

[@Amirifiz]

They said that we can leave this game. Either its a meta commentary and a cheeky 4th wall break like the Ahmkara exotics or we can leave the game of the Gardener and Winnower. Probably what happens at the end of Lightfall or Final Shape

[@pastelsunset]

Something I love about Savathun is how she always lures us in with power. She has a habit of finding weapons, abilities and other things that could work to her benefit, but she never uses them for herself. Instead, she uses the idea that she might to lure us in and manipulate us for her own means, because she knows nothing in the universe benefits her more than a Guardian to do her work for her.

[@johngancarcik5682]

So this raises a new question was ruinous effigy from the darkness? Or savathun?

[@Caliif]

@@johngancarcik5682 the darkness, if I remember it right it even says that it's a gift for us and considering that it could destroy Savathuns eyes...

[@bspoon2529]

@@johngancarcik5682 the darkness did that… savathun didn’t want us having that remember the interference missions

[@stoybenxi7395]

Moth mommy wants LÄMP

[@doommetaldarryl6689]

That moment when Ikora entered the memory. The animation is really good. The way she tilts her head, and the look on her face. It's so good, it lasts one second, but I love that moment

[@kylilin]

I’ve always had a spinfoily feeling that in the end, all the major races would come to some sort of final alliance, lord of the rings style, against the darkness, with the exception of the scorn.

[@justin-iq2od]

Maybe we could even use crow to get the scorn on our side🤔

[@kylilin]

@@justin-iq2od the way it’s going, it looks like Crow may be the lynch pin for all of this.

[@frobro5674]

Scorn and the taken.

[@johngancarcik5682]

Asher could bring the vex to our side

[@kylilin]

@@johngancarcik5682 agreed!

[@BickBickersen]

I just noticed on my second play through. That everytime you enter the witch’s echo room. You can see savathun subtly in the back. It was a nice touch. Bungie was totally giving us a hint

[@fuoco1365]

There is also the fact that during the final mission when showing the memories she is ignoring what you do inside the echo chamber until you start playing the memories when she then moves over to focus on it

[@cinamoonmoon]

i saw it in the second memory and it was absolutly terryfing

[@Caliif]

she also gets closer every time you see a new memory

[@Aztesticals]

The damn first time I saw 3 big ass eyes and was like. "Umm, ghost? Guardian? Noone gonna bring up the THREE giant eyes (hive eyes) right there watching from the corner of their vision. And we are in her throne world where she can see all that happens

[@doommetaldarryl6689]

Where is this? One of the campaign missions? I want to see this! Thanks

[@Santisima_Trinidad]

One thing i found very funny about the witch queen campaign was the presence of the scorn. Not because it doesn't make sense, but because savathun is under assault from the darknesses new vanguard. A vanguard which was only created because of action's the savathun took, the actions which brought about the demise of uldren sov and the curse kn the dreaming city.

[@peteraustin9057]

"Well well well, if it isn't the consequences of my own actions" ~savathun as she watches the scorn invade her throne world

[@asolem2266]

I absolutly loved that she was lied to, I love that the one know as the "God of Lies and Cunning" (and indeed the Hive itself) was born from a lie. And love that she never realized it. I mean how many times do you think that she has done exactly what The Witness did, how many times has she made others dance to her tunes by using their pride and fear against them... an uncountable amount no doubt. And yet she never asked herself, "What if I was lied to, what if the Deep lied to me and my sisters to make us choose it over the Sky?" I mean why would she, she is Savathun, the Witch Queen, the God of Lies and Cunning, how could she ever be tricked. ...I loved this reveal so much.

[@owleyes8600]

More than that, she never checked the familiar, never looked at it's memories because she thought she knew the truth.

[@aydenwofford4872]

The phrase from the final cutscene “inside your pale heart lies the key” got me wondering if any of the lore in witch queen gives us new information on what the traveler is or what might be inside it

[@joshuavidrine889]

There was an old storyboard for the opening cutscene of Destiny where when the astronauts landed on Mars to meet the Traveler, they met some woman clad in white who came from inside the Traveler or something. The memory is hazy in my head, but seeing the Witness (or a disciple of it) take that bizarre shape at the end of the Witch Queen campaign makes me think that the Traveler is just a vessel that might have a similar entity within, just more beautiful than bizarre.

[@aydenwofford4872]

@@joshuavidrine889 I hadn’t heard that of that scene, but that’s exactly what I’d been thinking. That the traveler is like the pyramid ships are to the darkness, a vessel containing an entity of the light in this case. Whether that theory is confirmed or debunked, I hope we get more information on the matter soon

[@joelrobinson5457]

@@joshuavidrine889 same species different members, I always thought the shrouded thing the pyramids contain was a little odd, what if like the worm... It only looks like a statue

[@jaredstuteville6499]

This just proves that the Traveler was free to choose who or whatever it wanted. Seriously though, would definitely love to play as a Cabal.

[@joshuadouglass8225]

It was already proven with the warlords of old.

[@jackgrove4621]

playing as cabal would not work gameplay or story wise. Maybe in destiny 3 but thats not happening anytime soon

[@jaredstuteville6499]

@@jackgrove4621 I know just a fun thought that's been on my mind.😊

[@BistoNation]

Sentinel Phalanx's. Hoo boy

[@VirtualShogun]

Id like to play as an Fallen (idl how to spell their other name)

[@EnigmacTheFirst]

This scene was a pretty “Oh shit” moment. After seeing Savathun becoke risen there’s a question of why the Hive would be allowed to use the light; with this cutscene, the answer is that the Hive were suppose to have the light all along.

[@Catalistic]

This is coming out of my ass, but IMO Cabal, Eliksni, hive, vex, humanity is just a chess piece of the gardener and the winnower. They can choose any species they want, it's not clear black and white as Cabal and Eliksni becomes our allies, and the hive was given the light, the humanity starting to sway to darkness

[@seanmurphy7845]

I’ve been beating the drum of the Worm Gods lying for 6 years now because of the Leviathan’s words and it’s been so satisfying to see that finally confirmed.

[@BrainWasherAttendent]

I assumed it was a lie. I dunno doesn’t seem like a major deal.

[@seanmurphy7845]

@@BrainWasherAttendent Because the Traveler being willing to commit genocide on the many species of Fundament to stop the Darkness gaining a foothold has been one of the many pieces of evidence used to besmirch it’s character and intentions. Not to mention this was back in Taken King so we didn’t have the precedent of things like Truth to Power to train us to discard what the lore told us.

[@SweetDybber]

Clicked the notification the second I saw it. Witch Queen really has me looking out for your videos more than ever!

[@dragonking1097]

What are the chances Xivu’Arath may be like Tartarus from Halo 2? Where she hears and learns the truth we have found, but has already made up her mind.

[@raysravens52]

xivu being left works for the witness because shes the goddess of war. she wont care why they were brought to kill because reason is meaningless on the warpath.

[@devinthierault]

As Zod said "But now I have no people"

[@TS-si4zz]

Well the thing about immaru disappearing at the end is that Savathun is technically one of the travelers chosen, ghosts cant just resurrect any old corpse right? When the traveler disappeared from the throne world in a flash of light, immaru went along with it, the traveler protected immaru from us because savathun and her light baring brood are one of the travelers pieces to play against the witness.

[@maninacan9780]

I kinda always expected the whole god wave thing to be a lie. I'm pretty sure the Leviathan implied that heavily in the books of sorrow.

[@milagrosgutierrezmartin9506]

The leviathan even tells them to choose the sky over the deep, and that the deep wanted to turn them into monsters, but Savathun had a hero complex and couldn't be rescued. She had to be the one to rescue the krill, and would do so with the help of that worm she found...

[@funkytownmonkeypimps6716]

I always took the god wave as being how the traveler gives the light. Wiping everyone and resurrecting them with the light. The witness doesn’t even have to lie about the god wave killing everyone, just twists the truth a bit.

[@milagrosgutierrezmartin9506]

@@funkytownmonkeypimps6716 What? No. Hell, the eliksni didn't have guardians. Humanity didn't have guardians until after the collapse. The traveler just shows up and helps. Terraforms planets, and heals ecosystems and I don't know if he gives tech, but civilizations certainly advance under him.

[@3ndlessL00p]

@@milagrosgutierrezmartin9506 yeah I agree, I think The Traveler only released ghosts after it was blown to shit by Rasputin when it tried to leave during our Collapse, because it needed a proxy army that would protect it while it gathered its strength. The Traveler is in the business of staying alive. And the Collapse of Sol seems to be the only time it didn't just leave a civilisation the moment The Witness came calling. And in the dark timeline, it left us behind when we were assaulted by Savathun and the forces of Darkness.

[@Raikos371]

@@3ndlessL00p I don't know why people still insist that Rasputin attacked the Traveler, because that is patently false. It had a contingency plan which involved attacking the Traveler to force it to stay, but it didn't need to use it because the Traveler chose to sacrifice itself.

[@Dyre05]

Just imagine that you, for millennia,saw yourself as a savior of your people. You made the hard choices. The choices that made you out to be a villain and to commit literal genocide to save not just your family but your entire species. How much of a mind fuck would it be to learn after thousands of years that you weren't the savior you or your species though you were, and that it was YOU who in fact brought all of the doom, death, and suffering to your people.

[@Red_the_pirate]

Not thousands, BILLIONS of years. Possibly trillions. Remember Ghost's dialogue when we scanned those statues back in the Taken King? "...all these were built before earth was formed.." Really puts into perspective how long they've been out there, killing to satisfy the worms.

[@gowithmyflow3667]

@@Red_the_pirate God, it must be such a gut-punch to Savvy to learn that if she had waited, like, probably for just a few more days, the Krill would've gotten a MUCH sweeter deal, with none of the baggage. She's gonna be absolutely fucking shellshocked once she's actually taken a minute to process the sheer degree of fucked the whole revelation is.

[@MakBonez]

What ever happened to the vex? I guess we really messed them up during season of the splicer.

[@sentineltitan2348]

We haven’t gotten a good Vex DLC in a minute. Splicer wasn’t even technically a Vex centered one. Everything during that season was Savathûn’s pawn Quria and not the Vex collective as a whole. The last true Vex centric DLC was probably Curse of Osiris. They’ve been delegated as side enemies at this point. Hopefully that changes soon

[@andrewryan1946]

@@sentineltitan2348 We have not gotten a single major expansion for the Vex. Ever. None. Only minor ones (Curse of Osiris), and Seasonal subplots, and even then the Vex are always a tool in someone else’s story. They’re never a self-motivated threat. Which is intensely annoying, given that they SHOULD be a major threat, with their inexhaustible numbers shaming even the Hive, time-rending abilities, and holding the reigning title as Champions of the Flower Game. It’s also looking like that Quaria we killed in SotSplicer was the real one. Which is just…. horribly disappointing for how important they were

[@gabrielpineirogarcia2078]

@@sentineltitan2348 The final shape should include the Vex in some capacity, since the Vex ARE the final shape in a world without paracausality

[@NakulKrishna]

@@andrewryan1946 the vex are powerful, but their “powers” are limited by the confines of the rules of the universe, causality. Timelines and their manipulation and simulations are all built on that rule. Guardians and the hive on the other hand are paracausal, hence beyond the comprehension of robots and their simulation. There’s a reason they’ve been pushed to the side, they are just that at this point, side pieces. They tried shaming the hive by breaking into oryx’s throne world, he just came and took half their numbers and they didn’t know what to do. We even half heartedly killed quria. There’s a bigger battle going on here guys, and the vex are just pawns.

[@abdansyakuro1105]

Well i hope in Lightfall The Witness finally utilize the vex (and scorn i think) and mobilize them as the darkness vanguard

[@nathcu11er77]

Imagine we get Xivu arath, or at least, the hive on our side to go against the black fleet. Would bring perfect meaning to that final scene in season of arrivals eith humanity, cabal, fallen and hive against the pyramids

[@TheFlyingslug]

We've already built an alliance with Caital's legion and the House of Light. The only hostile actors left are the Vex and the Hive. I doubt the Vex could be convinced to fight against the Darkness, being machines and all, but the Hive? Maybe. Probably.

[@ajatuksissan]

@TheFlyingSlug Ah, but we might have an in to the Vex as well, though I think it would be very different from the other races. Asher Mir (or, at least, his consciousness) may very well still exist deep in the Vex network. No one understood how they thought quite like he did. And we know the Vex can be convinced to change their course of action, as the Taken did to them through the Dreaming Mind. After all, from what we can tell, they just want to survive. Maybe we can show them a future where they can coexist with all the races. And, honestly, it would fit the Bomb Logic of the Light: many disparate parts that seemingly have no relation to each other working together to make something much stronger than a Sword.

[@loreseeker6604]

@@TheFlyingslug it actually could be possible for the vex to fight with us, keep in m8bd the only thing the vex really care about is survival. They run endless simulations to find the optimal future where they always survive. If they see joining with us at a certain time as a necessity the will definitely do it, they don't hold grudges being machines and all.

[@t.j.hunter1149]

Crazy to think that Taox and others thought her dad was MAD and that was now known to be true, wonder if that story line gets played out more with Taox not being dead.

[@Intruse]

Well, it wasn't true. Yes, the worm *was* talking to him, but it was lies to set up Sathona getting the worm so the Witness could tell them that they have to dive to the deep to live, because the traveler was in the sky above them waiting to give them the light and the Witness didn't want that to happen. The "God wave" wasn't real and wasn't going to happen.

[@Mihawk_Kensei]

The Light is using Savathun, and the darkness is using Calus. I think we will work with Savathun in the future to defeat Calus and the Witness. Savathun will grant us the new corruption subclass

[@WingedDynamite]

I love the ethical loop-de-loops people go through trying to figure out the Traveler's simple intentions.

[@frankgonzalez7432]

Biggest Destiny moment will always be how the Worm Gods/Darkness outricked the Osmium Dynasty.

[@lenzisme9850]

I just noticed that the main allies of the darkness all have reason to turn on the witness at some point. Calus got lied to by the witness. He now has his doubts. He is also sure that the witness is no god since “Gods don’t need to lie”, Eramis got defeated by stasis which might shatter her positive view on darkness altogether (full pun intended) and since we found out that the hive has been lied to, by the witness, from the start the last allied force are the scorn.

[@BrennanTheContentWhisperer]

Reasons to sub to Byf. in order best first #1. his voice #2 the content

[@Tir33nts343]

byf is so excited to be talking about this, hes got a lot of passion, thank you byf for your passion

[@Franchise1107]

It FUNDAMENTly changes the nature of their story I see what you did there

[@SilverSpectre90]

Now I really believe Drifter was right all along. Also. This really sets in stone questioning what REALLY makes someone "Worthy" of the Light. And how that moment puts the question: All what we have done so far was meaningless?

[@officerpantz5705]

I'd like to think yes and no, Ultimately a guardians duty is to defend the last city and humanity so yes we're are doing our job but the war is becoming much more complex now.

[@Knights_of_the_Nine]

Rise of Iron let us know that we were making up Guardians. We were Risen, and then we just fought each other. Ghosts have no direction from the Traveler at all. Guardians were a made up concept after based on faith.

[@milagrosgutierrezmartin9506]

I don't think it's a "worthy" thing. The traveler helps people, that's it. It tried to help the Krill, it helped the Eliksni, and it helped humanity. It's like a doctor not caring who it is on the table, just sticking to the hippocratic oath and helping. Since Ghaul didn't need help, but stole the light for himself, the Traveler fought back...although I wonder, now that the cabal is without a homeworld...would they be eligible to be helped by the light?

[@LambSauceWill]

I don’t think it’s about worthiness. Uldren and Savathun both show that you can be a piece of crap and still become a lightbearer.

[@wearsjorge55]

The traveller sends ghosts off and then they're on their own to find someone which is what happened with us and the hive. If there is any criteria for selection its likely just whoever has the most potential to kick the darknesses ass

[@firenzarfrenzy4985]

The extent to which Byf analyses lore, he could make a great historian or writer. He’s got the lateral thinking and the analytical mind for it. But he is here, and I cannot thank someone more for helping us all understand such a complex game so well!

[@fuzzystarhead]

I'm surprised more people aren't talking about the traveler giving savathun the light, to me, that was the craziest moment of the whole campaign

[@joshuadouglass8225]

Hey warlords got it, the light hasn’t been exclusive to good people

[@sandwichdude97]

Pretty sure everyone expected that the Light was given to Savathun and not stolen by her, which is why not many people are talking about it

[@KabbalahSherry]

@@joshuadouglass8225 - Nah, cuz they BECAME Warlords after they were resurrected. It's not like the Traveller purposefully chose people like that, I don't think. 🤔

[@joshuadouglass8225]

@@KabbalahSherry well the traveler still picked people who became evil, so it’s not infallible. Just pointing out it has made mistakes in the past with guardians. Assuming the traveler rather than the ghosts decides who gets resurrected that is.

[@Wulfspyder]

I find it interesting that her Ghost already looked like that before he chose her. I honestly thought that surely Savathun had made her Hive Ghosts by using Nokris' necromancy to reanimate dead Ghosts she had Crow retrieve from Spider's vaults.

[@jdjtbgs2]

Dude I'm amazed at how closely the scenes from Dynasty matched up with the memory cutscene! Amazing work as always.

[@cryptidcrow_]

The biggest moment in Witch Queen was me figuring out suppressing glaive + stylish execution

[@shrodingersgat2754]

I love how Savathün goes, “hey! This book is full of lies! Enjoy!” Out of nowhere

[@gumbo821]

Love the double meaning in the line "salvation lies in the deep"

[@IAmOnFyre]

"Never assume you have a complete picture" is a great lesson, not just for game lore but for real life too

[@martiferrer4354]

Byf on hunter no way Edit: banger video as always, I really hope for lightfall we as a community know nothing going into it, it would be amazing to have no clue what the expansion is about and just being insanely shocked about the crazy things. Imagine not knowing about hive guardians...

[@ten_of_diamonds7575]

On your comment on Zavala calling the books propaganda, the definition of propaganda doesn't include that it has to be false. Propaganda can be and is often true, so it really is just a way of writing about something.

[@GhostRydr1172]

I always saw the Savathun graffiti from a practical perspective: the line gave Bungie narrative some wriggling room to rewrite things in the future as they saw fit. But still, the BoS is written as religious writ. And such things are nothing if full of exaggerations and a casual relationship with the truth. So the big lie revealed in WQ fits perfectly, tbh. Especially when you had a main character named Yul the HONEST worm as a provocateur.

[@TankTheTech]

I just listened to this once and was distracted a bit, but will listen again later, so sorry if this was brought up... But... The thing that I immediately was thinking about when we saw the cutscene about how the Krill were tricked by the Darkness telling Sathona about the God Wave... In the Books of Sorrow, it states that the Osmium King was the one raving about the God Wave LONG before he died. So how is the darkness going to trick Sathona by telling her something she already knows? Unless the king really was mad, and therefore wrong, and the Darkness told Sathona it was real just to trick them even more. Or, the Books of Sorrow are indeed full of lies and the King knowing it is completely false. I dunno. Just something I was thinking about for a bit.

[@thefatherinthecave943]

2 things, the book of sorrows was written honestly like, a billion years after the Hive were created. The king ranted and raved about it but since nobody but him was talking about it, why bother? But when sathona heard it from the worm her father always had with him, it gave a little bit more credence to his ravings, yeah? Also, they specifically targeted sathona because she was deeply prideful and could be manipulated that way

[@TankTheTech]

@@thefatherinthecave943 So you're saying that the worm familiar tricked Sathona by feeding a lie about the God Wave, that her father basically made up because he was senile? And if so, is there any lore that backs that up? Not saying you're wrong, just curious if that's your take or there was something that already cleared this up.

[@Intruse]

What the Osmium king was hearing is exactly the same as what Sathona heard, as it was a psychic memory, not direct communication. The biggest difference is when Sathona heard it, it told her to take her siblings to the deep. It never said that to the King, as the Witness themselves said that to Sathona as the worm.

[@Caliif]

@@TankTheTech the king always had his familiar with him, if the worm told Sathona about the godwave it most likely did the same with the king

[@TankTheTech]

So after watching the cutscene again, reading this lore again, and watching this video uninterrupted, I've basically come to the understanding of the fact that the worm familiar indeed was telling the Osmium King about the God Wave, and told Sathona the exact same thing, with the only difference being that The Witness spoke directly to her through the worm and told her to dive with her sisters. Also, thanks to the people who commented about this as well!

[@ACloudCat]

For a while i was super confused as to why Savarhun needed *us* to unlock her memories with the relic, then I remembered, she's Rezzed, she doesn't have Darkness powers at all anymore 😟 she played us like a fiddle ngl

[@joelrobinson5457]

You say this, but some of her brood still drop worms, so... How and why?

[@ACloudCat]

@@joelrobinson5457 her army isn't all Rezzed Hive, so run-of-the-mill hive still pop out worms, it's quite interesting! I wonder how an acolyte must feel working under a rezzed Knight 🤔 and how long until we get Thrall with Thundercrash ☹

[@joelrobinson5457]

@@ACloudCat yeah but if they have worms dosen't that mean they have access to the worm powers?

[@ACloudCat]

@@joelrobinson5457 I...guess? Alas, the relic needed a figure with access to both the light and the dark, and thus we were Lured with a sick Melee weapon 😅

[@JelloDekai]

When I played through the campaign and that cutscene @5:20 came on it totally gave me goosebumps. I screamed NO WAYYYY! THATS INSANE! Major props to Bungie for the writing and having a proper payoff to all the lore they’ve established over the years. Absolutely no fluff, all substance. Great story content.

[@themuggernaut2262]

BYF I HAD A THOUGHT! The exo stranger is from a future where the darkness wins right? So could the Three Daughters of The Ozmium Court come from a past where the traveler had successfully given them the light? THE DESTINY MULTIVERSE OF MADNESS?

[@glennbruner7504]

Byf, you are nailing it on these lore analysis. Witch Queen story is reaching some amazing reveal and content. The writing team at Bungie are showing some incredible culmination of years of work to help build this story up. I am on the edge of my seat now for Lightfall!!!

[@brandonbluhm5981]

As soon as I take a break from the grind, I see a Byf video uploaded. Perfect timing

[@rodriguezlp2314]

The quest for the worm grenade launcher have some amazing lores too 🔥

[@PhoenixBlacke]

I'd love to watch your whole videos Byf but I just dont have time in my day, for these long videos but still love your channel

[@Dakota__69]

It would be interesting if we ally with a hive faction that splits from the darkness, joining the house of light and the cabal allies to fight the witness in upcoming dlc

[@devonhoule2933]

Makes me wonder if Savathun already knew about the lie "This book is full of lies" line. It would make sense if her getting her memories back omitted that.

[@Noblesix84]

Makes me think about the stuff we thought we knew in Destiny 1 and early Destiny 2. This and all the stuff in recent years. The narrative is changing, getting flipped on its head, and it's both great and sad in a way.

[@jeremyshoots727]

Just noticed the voice in the worm cutscene is the witness in the final cutscene of the campaign

[@stoybenxi7395]

Imagine if we end up becoming allies with the krill, cabal, and eliksni and the gardener/traveller decides to reinstate them all as lightbearers to combat the witness in the final shape. Caitl becomes what Gaul wished he could be Savathun retains the light given by right Mithrax leads the house of light back into being a lightbearing species And humanity embodies the will of the gardener by coexisting with all the lightbearing species

[@dustyfob]

I think Savathun is going to become an ally, similar to Mithrax, the Cabal, and the Awoken. It’ll be all the races that fight against the darkness in the end. Before we get there, it’ll be the guardians, cabal, and elixni fighting the darkness. The darkness will be on the precipice of winning, and Savathun will come out of nowhere to save us. This will make it so we finally except her into the fold, albeit with a lot of caution.

[@mreasyclap]

I hope he covers the fact that Savaathun said she stopped the Traveler from leaving during the collapse not Rasputin. That was also a world changer.

[@barendnaude4950]

Hey Byf, I trust Dynasty is back on track since the whole debacle? I've been clicking on it fiercely as I'm sure all the fans of your work have been doing. Thanks for all your great content.

[@TheDarKris]

I'm really excited to see what they do with Xivu Arath now. And not just because her silhouette reminds me of The Lingering Will 😬

[@harryquint7262]

++Ruin. Grief and ruin!- -The krill lost. The Ammonite ravaged.++ ++Our Traveler’s work undone.- -Sisters of Aurash, open your eyes++ *++Who made you monsters? Who summoned the wave?-* -Make peace. Join with me in golden renewal.++ - The Leviathan, Verse 2:8 of the Books of Sorrow

[@Nomadic_Gaming]

we knew the hive are why the traveler bailed on the fallen but in the books of sorrow it hinted the traveler had effected their world and them i never realized it could mean they could of been potentially chosen for the light thats kinda fucking nuts

[@elusive_mg]

Man this expansion is Awesome, thx for reminding me of that, my faith has been restored

[@cashusbucks]

I don't believe Zavala was saying all of the books of sorrow were Hive Propanda just the part about the Traveler having a history of leaving worlds behind. But it still works for the point you were making because the books are from only 1 POV. But I agree this scene changes so much... Honestly this entire expansion was the best infusion of Lore in years. A lot was answered but a decent amount of questions were brought also😁👍🏾

[@jinzo637]

if you remember that one scene if im not mistaken was in the season of the dawn where we see the races all looking at the pyramid we see the cabal, the hive, humans, and Elilkini together to fight the darkness. now that the hive know the truth we can see them as a potential ally.

[@Zoomii5]

Season of Arrivals

[@rangerpirate4955]

When you mentioned the idea of telling Xivu Arath the truth and potentially switching allegiance Im reminded of what Mithrax said back in Season of the Splicer: about humans, Elixni, Cabal, and The Hive fighting together. I thought he was naive and just riding adrenaline and happiness that his people were working with guardians and safe more or less. Now I'm thinking he may have been closer to the mark than I first thought and it wasnt just wishful thinking.

[@iceboxx887]

Man…that whole knowing about “how they got lied to” made me lose my mind!!

[@shinmalphur2734]

Just to be certain, what happened on the glykon was the witnesses fault?

[@yourewrong9028]

It appears that way.

[@Kidchrls]

its crazy to think we thought savathun was the one playing tricks on us and decieving us for years but the whole time the Witness was just using her as a pawn for his chess game in the shadows. Cant wait to see how this unravels

[@Caliif]

I still can see Savathun becoming an ally, if we really get soulfire/corruption/hive magic as a subclass we still need someone to teach us

[@schonkigplavuis8850]

Byford you are such a wonderful man

[@SilentButDudley]

I think the really important moment was the realization that the traveler has always been acting in its own interests, and actually didn’t care about those it gave its light. It is simply an entity trying to protect and save itself, while using then forsaking the races it finds. It sees humanity as a temporary tool, while it saw Savathun taking it into her throne world as a possible solution for its safety. That’s why it just let it happen. What I’m curious about is if the traveler itself lost faith in Humanity after using Darkness, and if us stopping Savathun as yet another thing that the Traveler feels negatively about. We don’t even know how many different species The Traveler has used, then abandoned. All we know of is the Eliksni. Even though the Witness is very clearly ill intentioned and evil, that doesn’t mean the Traveler is good. It could just be like the Darkness that isn’t used by The Witness, completely Neutral and self serving.

[@Mike-NP]

I just finished the campaign last night; been missing watching your stuff but had to avoid spoilers. Solo legendary on the whole thing. Had some tough encounters running solo 😅 Also have a wife, 2 kids + another on the way, and work full time so yeah...only have a couple hours to play each week. Can't wait to binge watch all the stuff that's come out over the last month. Will def rewatch Dynasty too. Keep up the great content!

[@pedro-wd9vc]

byf, ive been wondering, if the witness can move worlds through space and time and we kill him and take his power, could we bring back the golden age? like before the first collapse? i think bungie is hinting at that...

[@NakulKrishna]

The golden age isn’t a bunch of missing planets, it was a time of great innovation, success and exploration. You can’t just bring it back through dimensional magic. Eliminating the witness might bring it back temporarily but it’s evident that that flower game goes on and on.

[@zenkomenhi]

I absolutely LOVE the voice of the Witness during the worm's memory, Bungie really made his voice utterly terrifying in all the right ways

[@naumove2000]

Can’t wait to see your take about the glaives history and it being the weapon of some sort “traitor” of darkness

[@the13inquisitor59]

This whole campaign has me wondering if maybe Eramis is going to get Raised at some stage. Or if Taniks was Risen all along and that's why the bastard won't just stay dead.

[@jerry3350]

The story of the worm washing up on shore is quite interesting. I believe that something like this happened in world War two with a German soldier/german papers materials. The soldier was a fake. The point was to incite war in the place where the opposing soldier washed ashore. I think it's an interesting parallel and could lend credence to the worm speaking of a fake crisis in order that the king would listen to it.

[@chriswall9637]

It was in the books of sorrow that the Familliar was dead. It was also there where it stated an event where the Witness talked to Oryx via a dead ogre. My belief is that the Witness spoke through the familiar directly to Savathun, which is also why we got weird whispers when we picked it up in the mission.

[@puddle106]

Man there are so many little things that make me question everything. Not to mention all the "truths" from the insight quest when she tells us what happened to Mars. And and it seems savathun may still know more and probs more to learn from quests...I can't wait till the other lore videos to come out so it can all be put together for my small brain

[@SirLoinDeRes]

I spent years (literally) wondering what the Darkness is, and I can't believe that the answer has finally been given.

[@thorinhannahs4614]

I liked leaving it to my imagination or at least making it beyond comprehension.

[@Set451]

Guardians: Willing to wipe out waves of Cabal and Eliskni refugees without a second thought for the sake of humanity Sathona: Does what she believes is necessary to save her species Guardians: "How could the traveler ever choose her?!?"

[@milagrosgutierrezmartin9506]

Humanity is a bit high on having the traveler, believing themselves "chosen", but it feels to me that the traveler is more like a good samaritan travelling the stars, if you need help, he helps you, and that's that. No chosen or worthiness. Ghaul was murked because the cabal didn't need the help, they were already an interstellar empire.

[@smoke9047]

underrated comment lol

[@chriswilson7307]

those "refugees" invaded our home system and shot at us first and you're confused on how guardians killed them and are wary to make alliance?

[@Set451]

@@chriswilson7307 That's why I said "for humanity" Just as Sathona did what she did for the hive

[@chriswilson7307]

@@Set451 the problem with the argument you made is savathun and her siblings went to other places to kill them, humans are literally just trying to survive

[@Deritsuku2010]

I wonder if the Witness is communicating with the Scorn, and is doing to them what it did to the hive?

[@joelrobinson5457]

Scorn are essentially empty corpses filled with ether and dark, few are intelligent enough to think or speak, it is likely

[@sirtuna8066]

I feel like Savathun is dead forever. however, Sathona might be resurrected

[@osanieslana960]

It seems like the Hive were the first pieces in the new game between the Gardner and the Winnower. And that the witness likely cheated in the opening moves.

[@vbun4662]

Turn away from the dark and receive the light which is theirs by right. They're not stealing it. And it's pretty clear that the Traveler still seems to want to give the Hive the power of the Light. I wouldn't even be surprised if Savathûn is the Traveler's new favorite being.

[@fr3shk1cks]

byf you might want to do one of the memory missions there's an interesting bit of dialogue with savathuns mind at the end

[@bobthedopeman7327]

Now that it's been revealed I wonder if this was always bungies plan for the story of the hive. That the story always planned on revealing that the hive were manipulated into turning away from the traveler.

[@i.currie1543]

I just had a thought, if I remember correctly from dynasty it is said that the books of sorrow are a way for oryx to be brought back as they encompass him. However a multitude of in game people have read them and he isn’t back yet. Could it be that Savathun implanting this graffiti threw peoples belief off enough to keep oryx from returning?

[@sonichalo1527]

Oryx was brought back as The Touch of Malice gun we created from him.

[@sirsanti8408]

Oryx is dead actually, truly dead. He lives in the touch of malice gun and continues to serve the sword logic through it

[@flawlix]

I found myself muttering, “These books are full of lies,” while playing the campaign. It just… resonates…

[@hysterheister0947]

The trench barrel setup with the hunter looks fun.

[@arthurbrandonnielsen]

One of my theories is that Hive Ghosts are supposed to resurrect not the Hive, but the Proto-Hive, free from the tribute to the Worms.

[@Intruse]

But they revive the normal hive plenty of times. This is false

[@arthurbrandonnielsen]

@@Intruse That's why I said, "supposed to". Like it was a gamble that didn't pay off, or something is preventing it from working.

[@linkenski]

Honestly, at this point playing D2 and then watching Byf is just part of the Destiny experience.

[@Kalatash]

The mention of Hive holidays is making me imagine them celebrating them how we do in modern times, with paper hats and streamers.

[@ciandooley]

i feel like the story has maybe confirmed my theory that ive had for along time since the darkness showed us the room with the pyramid and the 4 races. i know this maybe silly but hear me out. in that room there were 4 races each standing against the darkness represented by the pyramid in the middle. of course we have humanity to start. as we've seen both season of the chosen and the splicer have both seen humanity gain two allies in both the cabal as well as the eliksni. this leaves the last race, the Hive SPOILERS FOR ANYONE WHO HASN'T FINISHED THE STORY so as weve seen the hive were tricked by the darkness to retreat into the depths of their world because of a great apocalypse. we find out this was the traveler probably about to give the hive the power of the light. because of this i have two theories now because of the ending. either fynch takes over as head of a hive break away after imarru is defeated or that Savathun is brought back (as her body was defeated but her ghost still lives) and because of her memories are back, stands with humanity when the witness arrives, maybe not as an ally but as a mutual benefactor to getting rid of the darkness. this was just on my mind but its probably dumb and leaving out key points that could be in the lore tabs but oh well. hope people who read this might get a chuckle out of it at least.

[@justin-iq2od]

The Story telling in the new dlc is awesome, i hope that in lightfall and final shape it will be even better. My prediction for the next dlcs is that in lightfall the Witness will attack our solar System and we are not strong enough to fight him, in the final Mission of lightfall we will have a Boss fight in the City with the witness, which ends with a cutscene where he destroys the traveller or atleast takes him away from us, so we Lose our light Powers and probably our ghost too, then the witness leaves the solar System with the traveller and all ghosts as his prisoner. Then final shape is about us beeing lightless, but still trying to find a way to get our light back, during the final shape campaign we will find a way to get some fractions of our Power back and then we try to find the witness outside of our solar System to take back our light

[@ajatuksissan]

Sadly, that would change too many gameplay mechanics to work. Bungie isn't going to throw away all 3 Light subclasses for a year just for story. Unless we access the Light (or a similar resurrection power) in a different manner. Even then, not having Ghost (or an equivalent) would be way too drastically different.

[@justin-iq2od]

@@ajatuksissan they could throw it away for the campaign, in free Mode it would still be useable

[@K.B98]

9:55 Are there there a lore behind Immaru? Like how does our Ghost seems to know him or why was he in conflict with other ghosts before he became of Hive?