Destiny 2 Lore - We know what The Veil is thanks to the first 10 weeks of Veil Containment Logs.

[@gavo7911]

I love how the entire idea of the final shape ties into quantum mechanics. The Witness views the universe as quantum, chaotic, in flux, and by “witnessing” the universe in its entirety, it simplifies everything down to a single point: a simple, perfect, Final Shape.

[@ActuallyNTiX]

so basically, it only wants to see the universe as a single point, one that is currently in motion yet stops when perceived. by linking the traveler and veil together, the epitomes of Light and Dark, it allows itself to form what it believes that single point's aspects should become.

[@adamsavage2646]

you literally blew my mind with this revelation but im also high but still its very smart

[@vVex_]

it's just like Outer Wilds!

[@burningbronze7555]

That does seem to strangely work

[@derekraymond9618]

wait, wouldnt that mean the witness wants to go back to when the universe was created, to witness everything that would happen, therefore putting in in observation, putting it in one state

[@GaminRiolu]

it's interesting to think that the witness and their followers never discovered strand because they sought to control the universe around them, something deeply opposed to strand, but in doing so they instead discovered stasis, control made manifest in a physical form.

[@Seeker_420]

The Witness never rlly understood the full secret behind the light. And both of the darkness. The Witness people only found this way in the darkness how to gain the final shape. A way to flee from the chaotic circle. And its important to use light and dark both. The Witness never used both for them selfs. Spoiled by the light. Greeded by the "the free will" They did not understand the full secret. They only wanted to control things...

[@AdvancedEon]

So how do the Cabal have strand shields in Lightfall? Surely if we, the player, discovered Strand first, we shouldn't be seeing Cabal somehow having shields made of strand before we discovered it

[@solarearbol1469]

@@AdvancedEonthey don’t, it’s a gameplay feature. Shields don’t have elemental alignments in lore, as shown by a distinct lack of stasis shields in the game. An enemy with strand powers would attack with strand, like how the Fallen captains in beyond light attacked with stasis. Elemental shields are a gameplay thing only

[@Seeker_420]

@autisminsect nah. The Elements are parts from the forces. The Witness only like Controlling... And the Witness using more Luster/Resonance than Stasis. Luster is the pure force of darkness like Arc from light

[@kyubbiman2255]

Perhaps it's b/c of the way the Witness views the Darkness. The Witness gives us Stasis which is a manifestation of Willpower and the absolute mastery of will and the self and asserting that power over others. Strand can't be controlled to a massive extent you have to flow with it and guide it. That's why the Witness would never discover the power of Strand b/c it is the very antithesis of the Witness's view of the Darkness. It seems like The power the Darkness would grant you changes based on the way you try to harness the power. Though the same thing could be said for the Light, perhaps there are other elements of the light we have yet to discover and master

[@ThatOnePaperBag]

Hey Byf, physics student here, your explanation of the hypothesis and superposition was a fantastic entry-level explanation! Thank you for taking the time to do some good research on this.

[@azraelwolfsblood2902]

Everyone’s an expert when you have Google

[@TheSparkLabs]

​@@azraelwolfsblood2902Everyone thinks they're an expert when they have Google. To be clear, I thought Byf's explanation was pretty good, but just having a bunch of information available doesn't mean you understand it.

[@rilius7138]

I was about to say the same exact thing, but you beat me to it XD

[@azathothds]

Wait for Aztecross to do it better tho...no cap...

[@username-gh-d]

​@@azraelwolfsblood2902I don't think so. How often am I struggling with problems and google or the whole internet cannot help me because the information is general but not for individual circumstances. To put those together and then understand everything, you need to have the knowledge and not just google.

[@kronost06]

The nutshell version is that just like the Traveler is the entity of Light, the Veil is the True entity of Darkness.

[@krishna9567]

Pretty much because the witness is like the “master” user of darkness but isn’t darkness itself

[@kronost06]

@@krishna9567 Yeah. The Light and the Darkness were never enemies. But like Eris said, that Darkness can be used for good, just like Light can be used for evil.

[@tyreemilon9022]

You can even think of the traveler as conscious mind and the veil as subconscious mind. Somehow they are two halves of one whole

[@Lrbearclaw]

​@@tyreemilon9022Ego, Superego and Id.

[@synthetik_soul]

But who made them? And why was the Veil concept designed with its roots/tentacles forming a sphere? My first thought when I saw that was the Veil is fed something through its open portal on one side and gives birth to something on the other side…like the Traveler. Or maybe travelers. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@ChewVurse]

byf: “i hope this isn’t wrong but here we go” *proceeds to give an initial explanation of quantum computing clearer than a lot of my teachers*

[@Jimtheneals]

There are only 3 more logs to decrypt according to Nimbus. Osiris asked him directly how many more logs there are and he said 3.

[@Zagafur]

makes sense, i think thats how many weeks are lef tin the season

[@bluemio7349]

yeaaaah Guess Byfshould have waited/held out for another 3 :P

[@tromar5758]

Bungie did confirm they’d continue it or do something similar in next season as well. We’ll probably find a different cache of audio logs or something next season

[@Jimtheneals]

@@Zagafur Nimbus actually says that in this week's veil containment at the end.

[@AllieSweetie]

*they

[@79bigcat]

The whole superposition where everything is true until observed explains how in universe there's only one guardian that experiences all the events we play, but all the players still exist in the tower, in crucible, in raids, etc each having gone through those all those events themselves individually; including the spare save files. We are the observers locking the events in, willing them into a form we like. If the Veil can implant memories into Exos, and Clovis hears about it, he may try to use it to find a way off his little iceball.

[@comfyDev]

I'm pretty sure that while it is cool to think about "consciousness" changing the quantum properties of an object, it's really more like to "see" something that small you inevitably end up having to interact with it, changing it. Shining a flashlight at a wall doesn't affect the wall much because it's so massive, but shooting a photon at an electron will definitely affect it.

[@dominikjachimczuk8397]

Yea this is really it. The whole consciousness thing is pseudoscience. It really boils down to the fact that to measure anything that small will unavoidably impart some amount of energy to the object you’re observing. Effectively knocking it out of super position and into a specific state.

[@EnvisionedBlindness]

Exactly. The very act of observation changes the observed objects state of position. I like cats.

[@bennelson5254]

Thank you. Quantum Mechanics has nothing to do with conciousness, it is about interaction and measurement. To "Observe" something you must interact with it which alters the original state of the particle being observed. If QM required conciousness to work there would be no observable universe as it would require concious beings to exist first to give form to it.

[@secretchannel6232]

⁠@@EnvisionedBlindness Unfortunately your cat is both dead and alive.

[@swarthygiant1463]

@bennelson5354 which is exactly why the Von Wager theory doesn’t hold up under scientific scrutiny, except this is destiny and there is space magic. The second half of your comment may be a major plot point in the end, and personally I believe the “rule running in parallel” the gardener added to the game is consciousness, and specifically the veil. I think the gardener divided itself into a traveler and a veil and in the conflict of division birthed life. The veil gives the universe itself a state of consciousness but it is in superposition and individual experience collapses it into reality as they perceive. The witness wants to use authoritarian tactics to force all things to only have one view, and therefore observe the infinite potential as a singular state To quote the great bill hicks “we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death life is only a dream and we are the imaginations of ourselves. Here’s Tom with the weather!”

[@dogsoldier123]

Why these missions weren't included after the light fall campaign/season I'll never know

[@niks660097]

bungo forgot to add it to main campaign..

[@brushlessmicrot]

I know. Money money money!

[@alexbaer455]

​@@brushlessmicrotwhat money? Veil containment is available to anyone who has lightfall

[@pugwash1]

@@brushlessmicrot lets not go there we dont know the process that went on perhaps it was to be added but wasn't ready or it was something else entirely that delayed it to deep we dont know

[@inktoxicant]

Bungie has said that this whole expansion is a sort of experiment in narrative delivery methods. Whether people think that's valid reasoning or is just some poor excuse for a slapdash filler expansion to make more money is a different story.

[@IrishZOMBIE117]

It's always interesting hearing the various levels of Byf's enthusiasm in a video. Of course outside circumstances can affect his mood when recording, but there does appear to be a correlation between the state of the game and the level of enthusiasm Byf has in his videos.

[@happypie1362]

One thing to note is, the voice heard might not be the witness, since it would be weird for the witness to have a connection to the veil to that extent, and whatever the voice is, was pushing maya to follow a similar path to the witness which could be a sign that there is something that has pushed the witness to follow the concept of the final shape

[@iagramajo88]

I feel like this is way overlooked.

[@immajosh4022]

Recall that in Inspiral, it is noted that one being asked for purpose and another being within the darkness told the asker about the final shape.

[@carolinamartins5653]

This makes me think of when we are doing the Hall of Heroes quest and they mention a “baby” Vex, or a entity that knows so much and so little at the same time. Makes me wonder…

[@amazingjames1979]

Personally, I think the voice is actually the darkness and not a singular entity, or, more accurately, how the darkness is affecting us. The veil as mentioned contains vast knowledge, so I’d imagine the darkness it radiates can naturally “leak out information” so to speak, that can change from person to person

[@User6468]

So who was the voice speaking to us under the tree of silver wings on Io, who seemed to give us the Ruinous Effigy to help us in our fight during season of Arrivals? It seems odd for that to have been the Witness... was that voice coming from within the Veil?

[@SilverCyric]

I like how you took all the audio logs and mixed them up to tell your take on this lore. A truly original piece of content. Something you excel at. Thanks for sharing ✌️

[@metalfingers2129]

Would stand to reason that the Veil is going to be the way we bring Cayde back with his same memories. Similar to how Lakshmi has Mayas memories.

[@corrosiongod]

And the witness the memories of his people.

[@UBtagSoGood]

Ive been telling people that the veil is the travelers counterpart and thus should be able to rez just like traveler. the cloudark is built of the paracausal energy of the veil, the conscience of people stored on a network. If the traveler can restore us to the state before death its not a far stretch that the veil can spit out another copy of you especially if you an exo

[@GrayvesX]

I think Cayde is just Ikora'a memories of him with darkness accessing those memories and light making him physical. At least in the location on the other side of the portal

[@TheInfii]

Somebody missed the pastebin leak. Ikora is ______, talking to Cayde in the ______.

[@metalfingers2129]

@@TheInfii Missed or intentionally avoided? Use your head bud.

[@tcfh2003]

Ok Byf, Quantum Mechanics. Your explination is pretty correct, and I'm glad you tried to explain it a bit more in depth than just "it's magic", but I do have a couple things to add (I may not be the most qualified to do this as I am an engineer, not a theoretical physicist, but I did take a Quantum Mechanics course in Uni and I've done some research on my own in Quantum Computing, so I'll see what I can do) Like you said, in normal computers you have bits, which are either 0 or 1 - 2 discrete states. In Quantum Mechanics you have qbits, which are like...hmm...directions. They are actually vectors in something called a Hilbert Space, that describes the state of a quantum thing. So whilst a qbit could be a simple 0 or a 1 (which are also the basis vectors of the Hilbert Space), it could also be in a superposition of the two. To understand what that means, you can look at a compass. If you say that East is 0 and North is 1, than any other direction on that compass is a superposition of those two. So something like North-East would be 0.5N + 0.5E. South would just be -N and West would be -E. You could have a direction like 0.8N - 0.6E, which would be a bit north of North-West. Those numbers in front of N and E, or 1 and 0, if squared, give you the probabilty that if you measure the qbit you'll get 1 or 0. So in the previous example, there would be a 64% chance of the measurement yielding 1 and a 36% chance of it yielding a 0. The main idea is that those superposition states are very clearly defined, it's not some finiky ever-changing mumbo-jumbo, it's just that a superposition is basically a state that we can't measure per say, it collapses to either 1 or 0, but we can predict statistically how it's going to collapse. What makes quantum computers faster is that a qbit, instead of having only 2 states, 0 and 1, cand have a theoreticaly infinite number of states (all the directions on a compass). So if we give each of these states a meaning, say for instance different inputs to an algorithm, than we can do operations on that qbit, which would affect all those states the exact same way, but when we measure the qbit, we only get one of those states. So instead of computing the output of an algorithm for a number of inputs sequentially, you can do it for all inputs all at the same time. The tricky thing is to then extract (measure) the state you want, and not another state. Now for the other weird macguffin in the room, the Wiegner - von Neumann Hypothesis. The weird thing about measurement is that it actually changes the state of the system. So if you have a state of 0.7 |0> + 0.7 |1> and you measure it to be 1, then the state of that system is now |1>. Also, this process is not a smooth, contimuous one (i.e. it can't be modeled using Schrodinger's equation), but it's instantaneous. It's the equivalent of teleportation for movement - instead of going from point A to point B continously, you suddently disappear from point A and reappear at point B. The generaly accepted reason for this, the Copenhagen Interpretation, pretty much states that this is how it works and you shouldn't think too much about it. The von Neumann interpretation states that, when you measure something, everything you use to measure that system: tool, equipment, even your eyes, your brain, becomes part of that system you're measuring, so Schrodinger's equation can account for it. The only thing that can't become part of the system is your conciousness, as it's not a physical thing, and Schrodinger's equation can't account for it. So reality kind of just skips ahead and just gives you the end result. In Destiny terms, conciousness is paracausal, it doesn't obey the usual laws of physics, but a different set of rules. What that has to do with the "0 mass, tangible surface area" thing Chioma said, I don't have the slightest clue. Is my explination more complete: possibly. Is your explination easier to understand: definitely

[@MelancholicBodhisattva]

I've said it once and I'll say it again - consciousness *is* the "First Knife" of the Winnower. At least in Destiny, by demanding "you" exist, by being capable of observing yourself and everything else, you're actually doing a couple different things. Being able to create a distinction between yourself and everything else, it severs the inherent interconnectedness between, say, your body and your environment. You're body was made from the environment, but you can't "feel" it the same way as you feel your body, which causes a schism not unlike how the Traveler and Veil are two halves forever separated or the Gardener and Winnower fighting. Because they're leaning into Consciousness causes collapse, it also sort of explains why consciousness is paracausal; it breaks time symmetry. There's no way of really predicting when a collapse will occur just looking at the base mathematics of QM, it's something you need to artificially add in. Which sounds a lot like how paracausality isn't simulatable. Finally, because you can verify that you personally exist, that does in a way guarantee that the laws of physics had to be compatible with your existence, and in a sense means it was inevitable you were going to exist from your perspective. Destiny is flipping the relationship on its head though, where existence and being able to be self aware of that existence is itself a source of paracausal power, and why the Final Shape in the sense of needing to guarantee your personal continued existence at all costs is such a powerful and inherent goal to achieve.

[@joecuppa1469]

Damn, I'm no pro in qm or science/physics but that sounds pretty cool

[@disastrousdwarf]

Also in Destiny consciousness has to be paracausal otherwise the Vex would be able to perfectly simulate conscious beings and thus would be able to ensure they always win against those that can't wield the light or darkness.

[@Cute-catgirl]

@@disastrousdwarfI believe they can though, that’s why they can perfectly simulate the Ishtar research team and haven’t been able to be stopped until guardians shower up

[@f2t948]

My take is the final shape is nothing. The witness wants an end to life death and pain and suffering They want to erase exestance witch ironically means that final shape wouldn't be a shape but formless nothing

[@RSAgility]

They got a point though, death might be nothingness, but I like life, experiences, seeing change, I wish I was immortal and could see energy looping in on itself forever into different Universes and possibilities. That would be neat.

[@vVex_]

Yay! Understandingthe veil only took more than three months from the launch of lightfall!

[@Butter_Warrior99]

Fr, kept us waiting like were Ladies in waiting.

[@twiz66]

5 or 6 months... Nearly two full seasons.

[@benarchyuk837]

Imagine having to WAIT 10 WEEKS for this when it should've been a main focus of the damn DLC

[@eleanorcerar6273]

I'm beyond stoked to see quantum mechanics like wave functions and entanglement be relevant in Destiny lore. I love lore that's magical, yet still scientifically plausible! While it is frustrating that it's taken this long to get the lore on the veil, I've been absolutely fascinated with it. Its ties to the Glykon experiments, Egregore, and so many other tangents is masterful, and really makes it feel like the Veil was truly planned from the start. The content of the veil is top-notch, it's just a shame that the delivery was less so.

[@guv6862]

Anyone else think timeline of Maya being “Whispered” the name of the veil & told its their salvation as they land on Neptune by the entity imply that perhaps the witness isn’t the voice in the dark or the one saying it’s our salvation? Otherwise How could the witness not know the location of the veil while also simultaneously interact with a human about it as it comes in to contact with it? especially with maya having no clue about either the witness or the Veil

[@magicmike3954]

Good catch. Destinypedia says that the witness is the one who talks to us in the black garden, but maybe it’s not the witness after all.

[@sovereigncharm288]

@@magicmike3954 Destinypedia isn't all that great, they make a lot of implicated guesses.

[@magicmike3954]

@@sovereigncharm288 well it did make the most sense at the time. Especially because the witness has a similar talking pattern to our “guardian” in that scene

[@amazingjames1979]

Personally, I think the voice is actually the darkness and not a singular entity, or, more accurately, how the darkness is affecting us. The veil as mentioned contains vast knowledge, so I’d imagine the darkness it radiates can naturally “leak out information” so to speak, that can change from person to person

[@MW2proification]

Makes sense that is fits with the web of consciousness and the concept art info, just like back, then around the end of lightfall, where it is, stated to be the memories, hope, stories that nits the universe together

[@rafenelson7230]

Cool environmental storytelling detail; if the veil has a lot to do with quantum mechanics and superposition then it makes sense that it would need to be observed at all times, and if you go down into the Calus boss room you can see what seems to be giant cameras or lenses dotted around the entire chamber. Just a cool little detail that the veil is still under constant surveillance and makes a lot more sense as to why it needs to be "contained". Also if the veil stores copies of consciousness then that's definitely how we get the old Cayde back.

[@AlphaXXII]

Your theory regarding the veil containing the memories of the universe probably explains why we see cayde-6 in the final shape teaser, super cool to think about

[@lachiripiolca]

Thank you for this summary and the additional science information, I admit the concept behind the veil, its nature and its analysis is interesting.

[@CaptainRasmot]

So . . . this actually kinda makes me want to "go into the weeds" with this because i think there is a slight misunderstanding on what it was doing to the Exos. Because i don't think it was so much of a "disruption" of how Exo-minds work, but more so a Logic error. Some would call it a "Cognito-Hazard" but it boils down to this. If you were able to see every version of you, even the ones that either don't exist or havn't happened yet, how do you know what the real "you" is? In essence the Veil is much like taking the Water of Life in Dune. You start to unravel the idea of time and place. You start seeing the *"now"* where you can see both the past and the future and start to see how certain steps repeat. The no matter how hard you try to walk in the sand without rhythm, there is ALWAYS a pattern, a rhythm in your steps. That everyone has a role and part to play and there is no such thing as chance, only Destiny. (yes i had to throw that in, sue me) So it isn't so much that the veil is doing anything to the Exo-minds. But more that the Exo-minds are trying to cope with the idea of being everywhere all at once. Exo-minds were built upon the idea of Control. You know who you are, you know what you can do, you know what you need, and thus you exist. That simple phrase "I think, therefore i am". So when you suddenly challenge that, when you say "Well you don't need to think to be, you always were there, but never always you" the Exo-mind starts to fight it. And that's why all of those minds effectively ended up in a state of billboarding. This also explains why the researchers were also having a hard time with it/dying from it. If it exists, you can see it, has a physical form then it must exist in real space, right? But the Veil does not work like that. It instead exists in the state of "inbetween" with reality. You can "observe" it, even "witness" it, but it still technically isn't a solid variable. But it does open a window into all of the things that *could* be. Which is one of the many theories/ideas about Quantum entanglement or even super-position. What if you had the answer to a test that you didn't know you were going to take. An answer to a riddle that no one has asked yet. A solution to a problem that hasn't even been created yet. Many would call that "foresight" or the ability to see into the future. So the Veil is more than likely a very complicated Networked Blackbox. Or a version or variant of the Akashic records. It is merely a catalogue of all the information. Every single answer to every single test, every single event in every single moment of history. From the beginning of the universe all the way to the bitter end, it's all stored within the Veil. So is it any wonder that when you are presented with all this information all at the same time that you'd probably start to go insane? Some would think being able to control the Akashic records would bring godhood or omniscience. Instead i'd argue that it would simply bring madness. But then again . . . sometimes being sane is to be IN with your own Sanity.

[@raven-0621]

What if the Veil contains memories from the beginning of the universe? That could align with (what I think is) the Witness' plan: the Final Shape, the last reset (shape) of the universe. The flower game in The Unveiling happened multiple times, if the Witness wins then the flower game is over forever...

[@justopena8842]

That's what is being theorised recently. The veil remembers the beginning of the universe, and the traveler has to means to make it. They go back to the beginning of everything, and shape the universe from that point on.

[@ActuallyNTiX]

@@justopena8842 a recombination of the two creates a reconstruction of the entire universe. the witness becomes the writer of the book of the universe, so to speak. that reaches level of godhood that even the Hive gods could never imagine reaching

[@salphoris911]

​@@ActuallyNTiXIs it in the realm of the Witness' power to manipulate and traverse time itself? Because that is a different demon altogether compared to consciousness and reality like the Veil and Traveler represent.

[@amorfati4927]

Good for you and thanks for going over it! Myself, like many others, didn’t even know it was a weekly thing or even existed except to get your new Strand aspects.

[@szxnv]

byf back again with a great upload!

[@immajosh4022]

The explanation of quantum mechanics was good. The only thing I’d say is this: Particles remain within a superposition up until the point of interaction with anything else. Consciousness is not the only thing that can cease a particles super position but rather a tangible force that like anything else, can collapse the super position into a singular value. However, it was still wonderful and brief description of how it works. Especially for a Destiny lore video. Great work!! 🎉

[@seanmcclure]

If people have to come here to figure it out there was a storytelling problem. Thank God for this channel.

[@Paperhatchett]

If veil containment dropped day one, once a week from launch and notified us each week. Probably would’ve saved Lightfall tbh

[@MelancholicBodhisattva]

This reminds me of how Rhulk wanted to see if he could discover a way to destroy or otherwise affect the Traveler directly through a Ghost (Raid Ghost shell lore). What if the Traveler is or was already trying to do something similar to the Veil, but through conscious entities if all consciousness reconnects with and could possibly influence the Veil? What if by trying to show the people of the universe a different way instead of competing for and trying to create the Final Shape, that could influence and ultimately change the Winnower and it's obsession with the Final Shape? This would seem to imply that all consciousness might have originated from the Veil completely, and there being a physical universe with bodies that are compatible with some infinitesimal fraction of the whole is the reason for why "people" exist. This could be pretty interesting, if Bungie goes down a route like this...

[@LordHeliox]

What?

[@MelancholicBodhisattva]

@@LordHeliox I'm going to need a little more to work with than "What?"

[@amazingjames1979]

@@MelancholicBodhisattvangl, the second paragraph of what you wrote was worded in a very weird way

[@RezPersonal]

After reading a few comments, it seems everyone has very similar ideas on what was possibly either retconned or hinted at from the start. From what I understand and theorize is that the Veil stores our past memories before we became a Guardian and it would make sense since the Traveler has been trying to avoid it, without the Veil, the Traveler can not restore or control memories. However this also explains who or what was speaking to us throughout most of our time discovering the darkness. it would make sense, since the Veil is supposedly the source of the Darkness and is what allowed the Witness to gain the darkness and wield it. So maybe the veil and the Traveler is having something darker or bigger lurking behind the scenes that they are truly afraid of, something that the Witness may accidentally unleash or discover, which may cause chaos or even worst a possible major time crisis or event.

[@-ilirda8502]

To give a more precise understanding of the Von neuyman-wigner hypothesis, mostly everyone has heard of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, the idea that both the position and momentum of a particle can not be known at the same time for the same point in space. The process of either of those values going from being unknown to known is the 'collapsing of the wave function'. The Von neuyman-wigner hypothesis posits that consciousness is a necessary part of that measurement and that without it, no measurement takes place. Without consciousness you simply have a collection of atoms and molecules carefully constructed into a measuring device, like a ruler sitting next to whatever it is youre measuring. The criticisms of this interpretation is that our minds are also made of matter and thus are subject to the same laws and physical processes as the system were measuring, that is to say that the 'consciousness' is a phenomena of interacting particles, not its own independent thing. the significance of the veil being a solution for the Von neuyman-wigner hypothesis is that it is a vessel for disembodied consciousness. It proves that consciousness is not a mere physical process but something else that can be independent from matter (remember the veil is massless*). I would encourage Byf to look into Conways game of life and compare the rules to the unveiling book's flower game. then watch a few hours of Stephen wolfram lectures on the subject and look at the shapes all those celular automata runs tend to take. all looks a bit familiar. Great video!

[@-ilirda8502]

Oh and Von Neuyman machines, look those up too

[@MagusKali]

Irony would be that the witness was being played by "the formless one" to release it through the "final shape". The witness wanted purpose, so it was given one.

[@Operational117]

Ah yes, the classic "big bad guy bossed by a bigger badder guy".

[@domingorico7994]

i dead on didnt even know that was there 2:45 ty byf

[@Rudol_Zeppili]

It’s important to note that particles are the things that observe other particles and our consciousness is the result of the numerous particles that make up our brain receiving information about the particles surrounding it (and also our brain making its own stuff from the information we receive, like color for example which is something our brain generates)

[@mugennick5209]

The travel creates consciousness and the veil consolidates it into a hive mind like the vex. Exos are in some state in between the two perhaps.

[@conmanay4563]

In layman’s terms, it’s the black box of the universe. A collection of everything that has happened, both physically and mentally across the history of the universe, or, as a concept art of the viel stated “a window into the mind and memory of the universe”

[@radfordra]

Notice how Byf didn’t fall back on the Schrödinger’s cat explanation of super position. Byf knows what website he’s on.

[@furbytegaming1752]

Makes sense that it only appears a certain way when we’re conscious of it, and then when we’re down to the last damage phase of a boss it’s tendrils extend (blocking off the outer arena) unless that’s a whole different thing lmao

[@Jacrro]

Finally, we kinda know what it is, definitely didn't take 50x longer than it should have

[@WitherSword]

9:00) the best example in a game to my knowledge is some of the items from the game ‘the outer wilds’. In that game there’s several spaces and objects that move and only stop when your currently looking at it. The biggest example is ‘the moving moon’.

[@roguerunner14]

It’s crazy that only yesterday did I even go through veil containment. Granted bungie made it a requirement to unlock the new strand aspect but still, some of the biggest lore drops in LF are hidden just off screen and only after pinning the quest did I see it on the map for the first time.

[@themanunleashed]

If it wasn't for your videos I'd be lost in the lore, and not knowing what the story is. Good job!

[@cognitiverob4869]

So egregore takes a seat while we retcon the veil

[@reamoinmcdonachadh9519]

Thank you Byf, for attempting to explain Quantum Theory, it put a smile on my face.

[@Devil0027]

Plot twist: What if the Witness was never the voice in the darkness this whole time. Something else spoke to us in the garden, spoke to Clovis, spoke to Maya, maybe even Calus as well. We been thinking it’s been the Witness but really it’s the same thing that spoke to them initially upon finding the Veil too, it’s just the same message

[@Operational117]

Like a distress call on perpetual repeat, echoing across time and space.

[@evylinredwood]

Much like how, initially, the Traveller supposedly spoke to some through visions. Seems reasonable.

[@Darkside_1994]

Sorry, but they’re not gonna introduce a final real big bad at the last second of the saga. The Witness is the ultimate villain of the saga.

[@AdvancedEon]

@@Darkside_1994 You never know, they introduced the Veil in Lightfall and didn't explain it at all in the main story despite it being the big thing that needed explaining while having everyone act like you already knew what it was

[@Darkside_1994]

@@AdvancedEon It’d be bad storytelling to introduce the REAL big bad in the very last installment without any buildup. People want to keep holding onto Unveiling. The cutscene this season definitively disproved Unveiling. The Witness is the big bad of the saga.

[@Transfigurated]

The von Neumann-Wigner hypothesis suggests that our thoughts and consciousness might somehow influence the things we observe, even at a tiny level like atoms.

[@samgutierrez1070]

My understanding of that whole "results change when observed" is misrepresented. It doesnt mean it is changed by our consciousness. It literally means that the instruments we use to measure affect the results.

[@Dingusdongus25]

So from what we currently know and it is actually true that ghosts came from the traveller it would explain why when guardians are first revived they have no memory as the traveller simply does not have the ability to restore their memory and with the idea that it contains the collective of all consciousness could explain how Cayde returns as a manifestation of his consciousness from the veil like nightmares but mixed with light almost as like a "lightmare" where it can't be controlled like a nightmare due to its mix with light

[@devinabbott3529]

I wonder if the egregore spores come from the Veil. They do the same thing as far as connecting consciousness.

[@ibrahermisleem2756]

So if I am getting this right the vile is a weeb of consciousness of EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE from it's beginning and it does that by using darkness (strand)

[@Devil0027]

No. Strand is just a byproduct of darkness based Veil power. Just like arc, solar, void power is by product of the traveler/light

[@ibrahermisleem2756]

@@Devil0027 ohhh okay

[@peteraustin9057]

I assumed for a while that our doppelganger at the end of shadowkeep was the witness, by the logic of "oh the witness has a million dead faces and voices, it can mimic us too since guardians are technically dead." But now, knowing that the faces in the smoke of the witness's head are specifically its race, I'm not so sure. After all, why would the same thing happen to Maya when she first saw the veil if that voice was the witness? At that point, the witness didn't know where the veil was after savathun had stolen it, so it must have been some other entity, possibly the veil itself speaking to her

[@amazingjames1979]

Personally, I think the voice is actually the darkness and not a singular entity, or, more accurately, how the darkness is affecting us. The veil as mentioned contains vast knowledge, so I’d imagine the darkness it radiates can naturally “leak out information” so to speak, that can change from person to person

[@amazingjames1979]

I used that reply for a few comments, but you can basically use the voice as our doppelgängers. And to add on to my reply, our doppelgängers very well could still have been influenced by the witness, just not being the witness itself

[@imp4573]

The Veil is a metaphor for Jungs Collective Unconscious

[@k_a_n_t_a_l_o_p_e]

I have an idea of how the veil will work in our favor: since search algorithms for quantum computers operate like filters focusing the dataset into making the correct answer the most likely to result as "true", maybe we'll eventually come up with an algorithm to find memories relevant to entering the portal and stopping the witness? Maybe Grover's Algorithm and/or Quantum Single Value Transforms will be mentioned? Shor's Algorithm? Maybe entangling minds with those found memories so that we may "consciously observe" these memories? Maybe psions will be the key to finding and seeing these memories?

[@Arkaeus04]

Veil is literally the hard drive of consciousness

[@PulsatingVibe]

Whenever I hear more and more about this, I keep getting vibes from the storyline of the game Soma. The concept of that game, but expanded upon.

[@brittneythompson7623]

The first thing I thought about when I saw strand was that it looks like something of a play on string theory. It also seems to play on quantum entanglement in which if one thing is one way then the thing it’s “connected to” and that the witness is trying to collapse it all into a specified reading using this entanglement

[@jamesshelton308]

The best explanation of the Von Neumann-Wigner hypothesis I have heard is: "Imagine flipping a coin in a dark room. You cant see the coin as it goes up and comes back down to land in your hand. You then close your hand over it and turn the lights back on. At that point, the coin is in a superposition of heads and tails. Once you open your hand and see the result, the superpositions all collapse down into a single answer of heads or tails" Essentially, the act of learning the answer makes the answer itself real. It's a continuation of the Heisenberg Uncertaintly principle (that thought experiment of the cat in a box with poison). I like this because it ties in with the theory that human will (our soul for lack of a better term) exists in quantum fluctuations and that our decision to do something is what starts off the chemical reactions in our neurons that make it happen by collapsing superpositions of decisions into a reality.

[@joshayou]

Stasis manifests itself as "ice", or a solid. Strand manifests as flowing energy, or "fluid". My (likely incredibly wrong) bet is that the next Darkness subclass will be named something like "Compress" and be themed around the nature of gasses.

[@SumYungGai9999]

red poison subclass?

[@Seeker_420]

Luster/Resonance . The golden glow...

[@yummycatfood2769]

It’s gonna hopefully be none of these, I want something unique, strand was nothing what we expected, poison would be too simple, luster would be too predictable, compression (while it makes sense) is already tied to an effect to void (just look at the vortex grenade) I want something crazy, something wacky, I want a power based on the ever shifting nature of desire or some shit, like make the warlock leak be a well of radience esc totem you place that invokes ruin and summons taniks

[@Seeker_420]

@@yummycatfood2769 Stasis is Solar. Strand is Void. And Luster is Arc. Arc means chaotic energy. Luster is grounding energy. Well i think our luster Version will be red...

[@yummycatfood2769]

@@Seeker_420 I always compared strand to arc, if arc is chaotic then strand is predictable. Unpredictability and fate. That’s what I personally compared it to. I know that the color theory doesn’t really apply since light-blue is red but I still like my thinking

[@glitch3564]

this is how cayde comes back!!!

[@reamoinmcdonachadh9519]

Just put in a plain text instruction. "Go to Veil Containment to find out the nature of the Veil" and place it where people can't help but see it. Even give a directional arrow, it that helps.

[@casartherandom3010]

Think about it like this: Because we observe particles, we alter the particles. AKA The observer effect, which is the phenomenon in which the act of observation alters the behavior of the particles being observed.

[@mr.gameandteach7197]

We appreciate your sacrifice doing this for 10 weeks. That's 2.5 months. If someone started now, they wouldn't be caught up until next season. Smh

[@TheWolfInNerdKlothing]

"Anything you observe, you change." I swear i heard that in JURASSIC PARK 😂 GOOD STUFF!

[@UmbrasMercy]

Man wild how 98% of the playerbase dosent know that veil containment had more lore besides getting the handcannon. Good job Bungo way to convey your lore and inform the player about how you intend to convey.

[@Catalyst375]

I'd blame the players as well, precisely because of the above point. Could Bungie have implemented a seasonal quest notice to tell players that another lore entry is ready? Yes. But it is also on people for not paying attention during the initial story mission.

[@UmbrasMercy]

@@Catalyst375 i mean, any other quest chain typically has a pop up every week when something is added ex the helm stuff. Just a director note like hey a partition mission is up would be something.

[@NecroBones]

I think this is directly leading into how we'll see Cayde again. ;)

[@jenxsonphox6121]

If we assume the veil is, A: web of consciousness, B: is connected to everyone in the universe, and C: has memories that go all the way back in time. Could it effectively be “the afterlife”? Recording and storing all the consciousnesses/memories of everyone ever. That would explain the Final Shape trailer with Cayde.

[@ratfart3391]

Since the veil has all of the memories of the universe, and as we have seen with Lakshmi 2 can be used to create personalities, we could get cayde back this way. Maybe since the witness linked the traveler and the veil we combine the memories of cayde and the light inside the traveler, and cayde is back.

[@codybarton37]

I have a theory of mine that the veil is the oxa machine, a black box of the memory of the entire universe I believe is how it is described in the lightfall collectors edition lore.

[@LordHeliox]

The OXA was a machine created by the Cabal.

[@Devil0027]

OXA was cabal tech and created/used by powerful psions

[@JalenHermes]

Oh my god, the OXA(OXTA) machine is a way to read the memories in the veil!

[@Time4GamesNow]

If this is right then an old final shape leak where Ikora is able to see her childhood is also true or will come to be true.

[@WhyBeUgly]

Sadly I think it's too little too late for me personally, I'm thoroughly checked out until the next season, maybe even Lightfall

[@Cpt_John_Price]

Imagine having a brain of yours. Better you than me.

[@Rockr69747]

Yup. Thinking of dipping into Starfield till Feb.

[@CJAYTHEGOAT]

​@@Rockr69747same

[@Khqra]

Smart unlike alot of people There is no point in playing this dogshit game..the seasons are pathetically managed and it preys on those that are addicted wit hnothing else going on with their life. Just wtch youtubers for "lore" or w/e to catch up and come back for expansions..its the only worthwhile time to play the game and that is pushing it.

[@zeroclue9959]

what i am getting out of this is holy fuck im glad my exo is a light bearer and has paracausal fortification

[@the8thvictim]

The mechanisms that work behind the Veil cause the physical phenomena to happen and manifest themselves in the material plane. Conjure in your mind an image of the hourglass, the center point where the two pieces meet, is also the place where the grains of sand trickle down from the one plane to another. The blue prints and the archetypes of the higher plane materialize themselves in the lower one according to the "as above, so below" principle. By the design, the whole reality is created out of the mathematical principles, numbers in fact creating geometry, a measurable, 3D space created upon the underlying wireframe that serves as a proxy to bind the spiritual into the material, corporeal forms. If you look around you'll start to notice cubes, the building blocks of the 3d world (just look at the grains of sand), hexes and triangles. Go to the nature, look upon the trees, their branches and leaves, their bark and finally roots. Look within the soil, the undergrowth, analyze the shape of the rocks and the flowers. Look into the sky, recognize hexes that form clouds, notice how the lightning descends upon the earth in the form of electrical veins and how spirals create storms. Look how the snow flakes are formed, see how in fact you can draw a 3D cubes by just matching their points, look upon the shattered ice and glass. Finally, look into the mirror, look at your own face, follow the lines on your body and see the patterns. See how neatly human body fits itself within the number 8.

[@FaizaanNaseem-ub8rv]

Imagine putting context to the Veil in something most people don’t know exists. Classic Bungo.

[@SpaceHaven]

So if Lakshmi-2 was/is a collection of multiple consciousnesses, does that mean she is like a mini-witness? Also, maybe the cloudark is made of radiolaria fluid. If clarity essentially wiped the radiolaria of it’s “vexness” and allowed exo-minds to inhabit it, then maybe the veil can do this on a MUCH larger scale. That’s why the exos on Neptune all billboarded, they were “wiped” away by the veil. In a sense the cloudark would just be a massive pool of “cleansed” radiolaria that allows the storage of multiple personalities.

[@chronostraveler8179]

A mini witny?

[@shaharazad.]

This is the first time realizing there even is an icon for these missions... just been watching videos about them....

[@oohhhyeaaah_5450]

Being doing a lot of neomuna stuff for the title recently and never even realised the node for veil containment was on the map

[@elecmanexe001]

just an interesting note, as you mention with quantum 'stuff' there, witnessing it puts it in a state or what have you. Perhaps this is literally the reason the witness is named as such, he is or intends to stop the variable.

[@christianpopp9924]

didn't expect to get a Comp Sci lesson from Byf but i can appreciate it lmao

[@ranger-1786]

I can believe I had a lecture on quantum physics in a Byf video

[@PG-tm9pe]

glad that it's not just information but also story, much like grimoire and lore books but as an audio story in game. ironic that just like that content, most people don't engage with it as it's not front and center, so to speak.

[@aceundead4750]

Instead of "you say goodbye, i say hello," it's "we both say goodbye, we both say hello, at the exact same time and which is being said by who at any given time depends on who is being observed saying whichever at that point in time." Only slightly complex and convoluted when explained through song

[@RuiNDieM1988]

When he started explaining quantum mechanics i immediately started thinking of Weeping angels in Dr Who

[@garrettviewegh9028]

Arc, like Strand, is alive, there are even accounts in the lore where Stormcallers have gotten zapped into ash by Arc energy they failed to harness. But the difference between these two forces, besides being of the Ligjy, and one of the Darkness, is that Arc is wild, and sporadic. While Strand is tangles, strings, and strands of energy, flowing, connected, from one source, one singular web at the center: the Weave. Where one is a storm of nature, the other is a web that connects all life, all minds, and can be used to manipulate and snip another’s life force short. Just like the sisters of fate cutting a life’s chord with siccors.

[@ToastyBits]

Now all I can think about is how this can bring Cayde-6 back. We know we can bring back Cayde-0 using the Bray facility on Europa. Can we then bring Cayde-0 to the Veil and find the Cayde-6 memories? Can this be done on a mass scale by using blank exo bodies and bringing people back to life? If the Veil survives the Final Shape expansion, there are many new possibilities for what could happen.

[@ThaJice]

Maybe going over the top a bit or just got lost on the way and misunderstood something but if the veil is like a network in a superposition maybe this is the reason why maya heard her own voice. If it contains all memories or minds ever to exist (past, present and future) its like getting a voicemail from the future. This would also explain why we would be able to get cayde back ( thus confirming savathuns revelation with cayde 7).I cant explain how this is linked to the traveller and witness though.

[@cruznix745]

I have to wonder if the veil isn’t actually killing those it made contact with but ripping their consciousness out and adding it to what would ostensibly be a repository of information streacthing back eons. I say this as I feel Clovis had managed to create a very basic copy of the veil operated the same way with the exos. However instead of managing to transfer a persons consciousness it simply created a sophisticated copy that destroyed the original in the process. I feel like this type of essence transfer (taking and storing consciousness/ memory for later use) is what the witnesses species had managed to learn and replicate. If your recall the cutscenes each person that contributed their essence to the witness died in the process. This then also informs the ideology of the final shape as they replicated the veils to create a prime being. Perhaps when linked with the traveler you could potentially create a literal god with the knowledge to physically control the universe. Idk fun rambling 😂

[@tipoomaster]

Destiny: Just casually understand quantum physics to understand my lore

[@djdom8048]

I'm not a scientist, but i have an interest in astronomy and quantum mechanics. If a normal computer had to find the end point to a maze it would have to tediously go down each path until it found the way out. If it hit a dead end then it would have to start from the beginning of the maze...A quantum computer however can explore all paths of the maze at once until it finds the way out. This is obviously much faster, but...if you wanted to measure where the quantum computer is in the maze it would then be forced become fixed into a single pathway. The von neumann wigner hypothesis is a theory that says that a person "looking" at where the quantum computer is in the maze is what causes it to forced into a single pathway. From what i remember most scientists believe that it's the act of measuring that causes it to become a single pathway, and not someone "looking" at it. I had to simply things to make it fit this analogy better but hopefully this helped someone understand what the von neumann wigner hypothesis is.

[@tkgwildfire5339]

Not a scientist, but have studied Quantum Mechanics: You did state a common misconception of quantum computing and quantum mechanics respectively. That being the fallacy of superposition having discernible logic; to discern, you must collapse the superposition into a specific data. The reason why quantum computing is faster than conventional computing is simply because quantum computers are reversible and thus doesn't reduce state entropy which generates heat (See Landauer's Limit and Second Law of Thermodynamics). Also for most quantum observations are so small, that the observing light (X-rays or Gamma Rays) are too energetic that they manipulate what you are looking (Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle). Still love the content though.

[@Logan-fr6uw]

Based on your thoughts, I would think the Von Neumann-Wigner interpretation of the double slit experiment is at play here.

[@darkpita4839]

This all makes perfect sense to me as a Warlock main. I just feel sorry for all the Titans who simply won’t understand. 😏😎

[@lawsonlebrun9375]

So I have a potential other way about thinking of the veil and darkness more generally. Instead of strand emitting out from the veil, what if the web of strand (or darkness more generally) is constant but the veil is what allows darkness to be seen and manipulated. In this case the veil acts more like a magnifying glass/power adapter to those around it because it is uncovering the latent darkness power that’s already around the veil. The veil would cause brain death on contact because the user would in essence be touching the consciousness equivalent of a universal power grid.

[@ESmorgue]

The Veil between Life and Death. The balance of the Universe. Mortal/Immortal. Conscious/Unconscious. I think once you've been touched by the Traveler. The Veil grants you access to what would be on the other side.

[@StarFish_Brown]

They're teaching us quantum physics because we're about to be a Starbound species

[@aidanmay1148]

I just found out about that node even existing in the first place 70 days later. That sucks.

[@BiblicallyDestiny]

Super Excited for some better understanding

[@tornap4rt]

Looking forward to seeing you at gcx next week Byf! 🤝🏼